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Event transcript
Ready. 00:00:01
Good evening, everybody. 00:00:03
My name is Rob Daly and I am going to call the City of Holiday City Council meeting to order on Thursday, January 18th. 00:00:06
Welcome, everybody. I'm assuming you're not here for the subdivision amendment vote. 00:00:16
That was a joke. 00:00:22
And if you'd please rise, we'll start with the pledge. 00:00:24
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, 00:00:32
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. 00:00:39
Thank you before we move to public comment. 00:00:51
We're going to begin, unfortunately, on a bit of a somber note in the city earlier this week after a surgery last Wednesday. 00:00:55
Our finance director, Diane Barrett, suddenly passed. 00:01:07
It was a huge loss to the city. 00:01:11
And if you would allow me, I'm just going to read a note that our city manager, Gina Chamas, prepared for city staff. 00:01:15
Diane was the city's first employ. 00:01:25
And has served in her role as finance director since the incorporation of the city nearly 25 years ago. So Diane started when the 00:01:28
city incorporated, so she's been here the entire time. 00:01:33
Diane was devoted to her role into her. Phil employees, many of whom are finding this sudden loss difficult to process, will miss 00:01:39
Diane dedication. 00:01:43
Her Louisiana potluck specialties, including her pretty amazing jambalaya. She was from New Orleans. 00:01:48
And there will be grief support offered to city staff, but she's been a very good friend to all of us, as well as an employee. 00:01:56
Our condolences go out to her family, to Christine and and Frank and Michael. 00:02:06
And I think we'd just be remiss if we didn't start the meeting by recognizing the huge losses is going to be to the city. 00:02:12
With that, we will move to public comment and before we open up public comment, we have quite a few people in the audience. I know 00:02:21
a lot are here to. 00:02:26
Help celebrate the accomplishments of JoJo, which will be after public comment. And I know there are a lot of people here for the 00:02:32
public hearing on the rezone application. 00:02:36
So for those here for the 2, the rezone application, that will be a separate public hearing. We also have another public hearing 00:02:40
on a subdivision amendment we've got to make so. 00:02:47
If you're here to make public, comment on either of those two items. 00:02:53
This is not your time to comment. I will open those public hearings separately. If you are here to address the Council on any 00:02:58
other item that's of interest to you other than those two public hearings, now is the time for you to address the Council. So the 00:03:04
public comment is now open. I would ask you to come to the podium, state your name and address, and try to keep it to 3 minutes or 00:03:10
less. Anybody to address the Council on public comment. 00:03:17
Going once, going twice. 00:03:27
We will close public comment and move to item number 4. 00:03:31
This is the recognition for JoJo Jordan. 00:03:36
This is, and I've been talking with Brad Rutledge about this a little bit because, and I feel, I feel as a council maybe we've 00:03:40
been a bit remiss. We've got such incredible young people in this city. 00:03:45
And I've been doing this for 10 years and we have never really honored an individual at a council meeting. And you know what? We 00:03:51
should. And so when Brad called and he was explaining to me what the Nike Cross Nationals was, I was not aware of it. I'm not not 00:03:58
a cross country runner as you can tell my my, my physique. 00:04:05
And so I started looking into it and and realized what? 00:04:13
An incredible accomplishment. This is for this young man and for his teammates and for his family and for the community. So I want 00:04:17
to just start by maybe having Brad come up and talk a little bit about it. Then we're going to watch a short video and then we're 00:04:25
going to just make a short presentation. So Brad, I got to know Brad a little bit. When we started working on, he started wanted 00:04:32
to let me know about the proposed gondola, Little Cottonwood Canyon, which we won't talk about right now, but. 00:04:39
That's how I got to know Brad. So anyway, Brad, it's all yours. 00:04:48
Well, first of all, thank you, Mayor Dolly. And to the City Council, I recognize and you know, I've seen a lot of of what you guys 00:04:52
have done. And thank you so much for taking a little bit of time to recognize this. 00:04:58
As someone who ran cross country and track in high school and in college, and now my son is on the the Olympus high school team. 00:05:05
I was fortunate enough to get to know, you know, that the team, and specifically this boys team is really, really remarkable. And 00:05:12
when I look at what JoJo accomplished, you know, as I've gotten to know him just a little bit, it's truly, truly remarkable. 00:05:20
The NXN race is the Nike Cross Nationals. 00:05:29
And it consists of eight regional. 00:05:33
Qualifying meats across the United States. 00:05:37
And that is the national meat for all of those teams. There are 22 seven person teams that qualify in the boys, boys race and an 00:05:40
additional 50 individuals that qualified. So truly the top top runners in the United States were at this race. 00:05:48
And JoJo qualified individually, representing Olympus High and the City of Holiday. 00:05:56
And when when I look, when I watch the race live, it was fantastic and exciting and Jojos race strategy was phenomenal. And you 00:06:04
know the only other thing I really have to say is is someone that's really just met JoJo, his family and the team is that. 00:06:11
It really represents community. His teammates have been running together since junior high, training and pushing each other. And 00:06:20
to see, you know, this come out of, you know, Holiday City is really remarkable and I think JoJo and I were talking. 00:06:28
If you watch the race, they mention it on the commentary and and we couldn't find that just before. But in that race additionally 00:06:37
there were some 30 to 40 individual state champions that were racing for him to win. That is is truly, truly remarkable and so 00:06:42
thank you again to the city for recognizing him. 00:06:48
Thanks, Brad. And if we could queue it up, I'm going to say a few remarks after, but if Stephanie can figure out to cue this up, 00:06:55
we're going to. 00:07:00
Put up here the final. 00:07:05
Minute or so. Brutal to take your momentum, but if you can find it again, one look back but the gap looks. 00:07:07
It's closing. Not only do you have to crush that first hill, but you got to get over the second one. Now we see it straight on. 00:07:14
JoJo Jordan keeps looking behind him as he's getting cameras. Todd, best effort here in the closing stretches. 00:07:22
Everybody else trying to get to the finish. 00:07:31
But it would appear that Joe, Joe Jordan. With one final look, the smile emerges. 00:07:34
The celebration begins. He is the Nike Cross National Champion. 00:07:41
So I learned a few things when I looked this up. It was and I'll look at JoJo and he'll or Brad. You guys will tell me if I mess 00:07:58
this up, but it's a 5000m race. 00:08:03
3.11 miles He finished in 15 minutes and 16 seconds. 00:08:09
5. 00:08:16
Which is incred. 00:08:18
There were 204 individuals in the race. I don't know between teams and individuals. 00:08:20
But 204, that's a lot, but when you consider. 00:08:27
They came from 8 regions and you had to qualify out of those eight regions, so probably. 00:08:31
The large percent were eliminated in those regionals. It was just the very, very top people that actually made it to the finals in 00:08:39
Portland. OR was it Portland? 00:08:43
So just a really, you know, just an incredible accomplishment. But we have a lot of young people that do incredible stuff in the 00:08:49
city. We're very lucky and I think we need to take more time to recognize them. 00:08:55
And let them know they're shining a bright light on the city of holiday when they they make individual strides like, well, 00:09:03
strides. That's probably, well, that is the right metaphor. 00:09:08
So we just want to honor him for that. But also, and I was talking to Brad about this, I think it's also very important. 00:09:15
That even though this is an individual, he's an individual racer. 00:09:22
This is about, you know, your teammates, It's about the coaches that put in all the time and most importantly, it's about your 00:09:27
family support. And I, Jerome and Ivana, I know you must be very, very proud. He's heading to Wake Forest in the fall. 00:09:34
And so we just wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate you and say thank you. And I'm going to ask the council if they'd 00:09:42
come down. And we've just got a little certificate we want to give you and let us get a photo we can put in the journal. 00:09:48
Wow, I'm sure your friends will be so jealous. 00:10:21
We just have, we just have a little specific form congratulating him. But if you'll hold that and we get the council that squeeze 00:10:27
in here we get. 00:10:31
Then we've only allotted 10 minutes for your speech. So. 00:10:35
Congratulations. I was just kidding about the speech and we will be moving into the regular council meeting. And for those that 00:10:50
came here to support Jordan, you are welcome to stay. 00:10:58
It's going to be fabulous, the. 00:11:07
But if you have something else to do and you get up and leave, we're not going to be offended at all. So thanks for coming. 00:11:11
Move on to item number 5. Item number 5 is a public hearing on amendments of Title 13 addressing mandated subdivision processes. 00:12:08
In a nutshell, these are mandates that came down from the state that they're the. 00:12:16
Municipalities are required to make prior to February 1st to be in compliance with state code. We're going to ask John Tierlink to 00:12:23
come up and talk a little bit about this before we open up the public hearing. Or did I say all that needs to be said, John? I 00:12:27
don't know. 00:12:31
I don't want to steal your. 00:12:37
You can steal my Thunder any day. 00:12:41
So just a quick overview starting in November of last year. 00:12:44
We started this discussion with our Planning Commission as to what these new changes mean for them. 00:12:49
Primarily, it affects them. 00:12:55
This is a reiteration from the state level as to how subdivisions are to be handled. 00:12:57
In all municipal. 00:13:03
Primarily for the purpose of expediting, so to speak, subdivision of property so the development can take place. 00:13:05
Over the several years the state has always iterated that this is a non discretionary process. 00:13:14
Subdivisions that go through public hearings. 00:13:20
Planning Commission meetings. 00:13:24
From the point of view of the home builder, get delayed and when it's just meeting certain standards. 00:13:26
The intent is to quicken the pace. 00:13:33
So in this situation, the state has requested that all municipalities have a truncated process for reviewing subdivisions. 00:13:35
The process has been iterated in the draft that's been presented. 00:13:43
To you and recommended by the Planning Commission. 00:13:47
But essentially what it does is it creates the at the staff level a land use authority which is required to oversee final Platts. 00:13:50
In some municipalities, that is a responsibility of City Council. 00:14:00
That's not the case for holiday. The Planning Commission takes over that role for. 00:14:04
And less in this situation of a public St. dedication then the plat would come to you as it has just recently. 00:14:09
However, the Technical Review committee has been charged with. 00:14:17
Administered now. It's been administering sort of a preliminary concept review. 00:14:22
And a final plat. 00:14:28
Review and that final plat. 00:14:30
Has been required to happen or occur in four distinct review cycles. 00:14:33
If for some reason the municipality can't meet those four review cycles, there's an appeal process. 00:14:39
In my 17 years that I've been here, I don't think holiday has ever had an issue with. 00:14:46
Reviewing subdivision plat. 00:14:51
Thoroughly and. 00:14:53
However, this just iterates that process from the state level. 00:14:55
Cleanly requires it throughout all municipalities. 00:15:00
Typically, I mean this is more for the audience, but typically. 00:15:09
Public hearings like this are open and closed and we vote on it. The next council meeting give council plenty of time to 00:15:12
deliberate. 00:15:15
This is actually on the agenda for vote tonight, so I would encourage the Council if you've got any questions. 00:15:19
Prior to this coming up for a motion, I think this would be this would be the time right now to clarify any questions you have 00:15:25
about this particular. 00:15:28
Issue, John. So given what you've said it, can I assume that you don't anticipate this change creating? 00:15:32
A whole lot of change in our process or a significant amount of it of burden to staff. 00:15:42
Does it sound like the rest of the world is catching up to what we already do? Or it sounded like this seems like a fairly, at 00:15:49
least for our city, not a particularly heavy burden in terms of change. I wouldn't describe it as a heavy burden the way that you 00:15:55
originally and councils before you. 00:16:02
Formulated the subdivision procedure and approval process. 00:16:09
It allowed for steps to be combined together. 00:16:13
So as a technical rear committee at the staff. 00:16:16
We could work directly with the applicant to combine a concept in a preliminary level at one step or preliminary and final at one 00:16:19
step. 00:16:23
That process was already in place and that greatly speed that the subdivision review and approval process. 00:16:28
The second approach is that the Council granted the Planning Commission. 00:16:35
Authority to delegate the final Plat review. 00:16:41
Which is more or less. 00:16:45
A grammatical check with surveys and such. 00:16:47
At the staff and engineers levels so that they don't have to have that conversation in a public setting, a public meeting. 00:16:51
So that was already in place. 00:16:59
For the normal subdivision going through your process up until now. 00:17:02
Rarely, it would have three very distinct meetings. 00:17:06
Most of the time it was already 2. Anyway, this is actually bringing it down to. 00:17:10
John, I understand that this was a change mandated by state. 00:17:17
Statue. 00:17:23
How much discretion did we have in terms of drafting specific provisions? And are there portions of the ordinance that you think 00:17:26
we took a particularly conservative or a particularly aggressive approach on? 00:17:32
Specifically, the ordinance only limited the subdivision amendments to one and two lot and townhome subdivisions. 00:17:40
We applied that. 00:17:47
All across. 00:17:49
You don't have to do that. You can keep the same process with your, for example, multi family condo, plat. 00:17:51
You can keep a concept of preliminary. 00:17:58
Step, but to make things a little easier for the Planning Commission to wrap. 00:18:00
Collective minds around it was easier to keep that process that way. 00:18:05
Normally when you see amendments from staff, you'll see a redlined version. 00:18:11
We started getting into the subdivision processes and procedures sections of your code. 00:18:17
And discovered that trying to insert these processes was being. 00:18:22
Was problematic to follow. 00:18:29
So from the staff's point of view, we actually redacted your 13.10 section and rewrote it cleanly. 00:18:31
Because that section in the time that I've been here has been amended so many times. 00:18:38
It's a bit convoluted. We don't use the same terminology over every iteration. 00:18:42
This version cleans that up. We did take. 00:18:47
Some freedoms in doing that for you, but which is not required. 00:18:51
OK. Thank you. 00:18:56
John, it seems to me that. 00:18:59
Planning Commission's role has changed a little bit under the under this new statute. 00:19:02
Am I reading that wrong? You're not. Basically what this is is, is the state reiterating that municipalities process for approving 00:19:06
subdivisions is really not discretionary? 00:19:12
Meeting certain standards. 00:19:18
And the process is intended so that the Planning Commission just verifies that those standards are being met. 00:19:21
Does a lot size meet the minimum requirement? Does it have access? 00:19:28
Does it have utilities serviceable to the site? Is the engineering correct? 00:19:32
And so in this iteration, what they're saying is that the planning collisions in some municipalities were taking too long. 00:19:37
To process through those types of reviews. 00:19:43
Where they could be standardized and put forth to the. 00:19:47
For an administrative type. 00:19:52
Does the Planning Commission have less flexibility now? 00:19:54
They really didn't have much flexibility prior. Really all they were doing is. 00:19:59
1st at the concept level, verifying that the lot sizes were meeting the minimums. 00:20:04
The preliminary was more a construction level, the really heavy lifting of. 00:20:08
The development of the subdivision was taking place verifying that utilities are being provided. 00:20:13
And then the final is the actual recording document that goes to the county. 00:20:18
So in that process, as long as they're meeting certain standards of the zone. 00:20:23
An R110 zone, for example, the Planning Commission was there to verify that each one of those steps were being met and those 00:20:28
standards are being met. 00:20:33
Thank you. Their workload has essentially gone down. 00:20:38
For them. 00:20:41
But honestly, we only process maybe a dozen. 00:20:43
Being an infill as opposed to a Greenfield city, there's not a lot of opportunity for this anyway. A dozen at best per year is 00:20:48
that you're going to say or sorry, you said a dozen at best. Usually we average about a dozen subdivisions, which it doesn't seem 00:20:53
like it in annually, is that right? Yes, annually. 00:20:59
Yeah, so for the resident or property owner what how will they, how will things be different for them from a burden perspective 00:21:06
and or a timeliness perspective, like what? How will the from the resident point of view, you really won't see much of A change. 00:21:13
Other than the. 00:21:22
After your first public hearing, when the when the staff will bring the applicant to the Planning Commission for their preliminary 00:21:23
review. The public hearing and the noticing stays the same. 00:21:28
They still have an opportunity to comment. 00:21:33
Unless the Planning Commission continues the item for clarification for some reason to another meeting, there won't be other 00:21:36
meetings after that. 00:21:40
It will be held back with the applicant working directly with staff finishing the final steps. 00:21:44
So more timely than it has been right and the applicant from our we still are proposing that we you maintain your neighborhood 00:21:51
meeting requirement. 00:21:56
You have that neighborhood meeting that the applicant goes out and has their little pre meeting before the Planning Commission so 00:22:01
that they know what The Who the developer is, what's being proposed. 00:22:06
Rather than trying to explain that at the Planning Commission level. 00:22:11
That won't change. 00:22:15
It's the meetings after your public hearing. IS won't have any opportunities for other public meetings to participate in that 00:22:18
process. 00:22:21
So their burden is similar, I guess you could say then as it was previously or essentially the same, it's condensed but just more 00:22:27
time away in the end. 00:22:31
Thank you. 00:22:36
Any other questions for John? 00:22:40
OK. Thanks John. Thank you. OK, with that we will open up the public hearing anybody. 00:22:43
In chambers that wants to address the Council regarding this. 00:22:50
Amendment. 00:22:55
There being that I'm going to close this public hearing. 00:22:59
And move to item number six on the agenda. 00:23:03
This is a public hearing on proposed the proposed rezone for 2051 and 2061 E Marie Holiday Rd. From residential multifamily room 00:23:07
to professional office. 00:23:13
PO zone .49 acres. 00:23:19
This has been through the Planning Commission. We'll hear from staff in just a moment. And I'll just kind of tell everybody 00:23:25
there's a lot of people here, I'm sure for this particular public hearing. And so I'll just give you an idea how I think how I see 00:23:29
this going just so you have. 00:23:34
Some perspective on how we move through this process. 00:23:40
We'll have we'll hear from staff 1st and then if the applicants here, we'll hear from the applicant. 00:23:45
You may not hear a whole lot from the council during this portion of the meeting. I'll leave that up to the council members 00:23:51
discretion how much they want to talk here and how much they want to talk in the work meeting. But if you move to item number 11, 00:23:57
the first item in the work meeting which will be in these chambers is a discussion on previous rezone in the public hearing. 00:24:04
That's where you'll hear and this is open to the public and open discussion with the council and with staff on this particular 00:24:10
rezone application as it as it pertains to. 00:24:16
The Planning Commission's decision, the staff report, so on and so forth. 00:24:23
Unless something happens that I'm not anticipating, I will most likely keep this public hearing open until February 1st, which is 00:24:29
the next council meeting where I anticipate this will the public hearing will continue and be closed at that point and then go to 00:24:36
a vote. Again, it depends on what we hear here, but as I've said before, I don't I I think there's a lot of. 00:24:44
There's a lot of people that are concerned about this particular application, but I don't see it as being that complicated that it 00:24:53
would delay a vote on it. So with that, let's start with Carrie Marsh will bring have Carrie come up. 00:25:00
Would you mind clarifying that this is extended until the February 1st meeting? Will there be additional public comment on 00:25:10
February 1st? Yes, yes, yeah, public hearing will remain open on February 1st, but I anticipate closing it on February 1st, but 00:25:15
again. 00:25:21
I don't want to discount anything I'm going to hear here, but that's how I see it going at this point. If that changes, I'll let 00:25:27
you know here shortly. 00:25:30
OK, Carrie, come on up. 00:25:35
Thank you, Mayor. 00:25:42
So this application is for a rezone. It involves 2 parcels, 2051 and 2061, Marie Holiday wrote. They're owned by the same property 00:25:44
owner, and the property owner wishes to redevelop the property and retain their office use. 00:25:54
With wanting to retain office. 00:26:05
And redevelop or construct new buildings on the property, he would need to come into conformance with a zone that allows office 00:26:08
use. So that is the request from rezoning from an RM or that is a multi family use to a professional office use so that he can 00:26:15
redevelop the property and retain his existing office use. 00:26:23
With the PO zone, any sort of mixed-use doing residential mixed with an office use he would have, the applicant would have to seek 00:26:31
a conditional use permit that the Planning Commission will review and hold a public hearing on with parameters based off of. 00:26:41
Any potential impacts? Those will be addressed with a conditional use permit at that point in time. 00:26:52
The Planning Commission reviewed the application. They found it. They forwarded A neutral recommendation. They found that the 00:27:00
there was insufficient information of. 00:27:07
On points two and three that are in chapter 13.44, point 010B. 00:27:14
Specifically that the rezone would not result in an upgrade to the building and or site or enhanced property values or contribute 00:27:22
to the economic sustainability of the city. The applicant can detail those points a little bit more if the if the council wishes 00:27:29
to discuss that with the applicant. 00:27:35
Essentially, the main point here is that. 00:27:44
Moving from a nonconforming use or an office use in the room zone to the PO zone where an office use is allowed and that is why 00:27:47
the applicant or application has been brought to City Council. 00:27:53
Thanks. 00:28:00
OK. Is the applic? 00:28:04
Is the applicant here? Yeah, come on up. Would you give us your name and address, please? 00:28:07
My name is Brad Helston. My address is 3120 S Metropolitan Way in Salt Lake 84109. I live by REI. 00:28:13
For your. 00:28:22
We purchased 2061. My partners and I have two partners in Miami who are law partners of mine. 00:28:25
For an office because we wanted to be in. 00:28:33
We intended and intend to stay in holiday and grow our office. 00:28:38
We our office is currently in the room zone under a conditional use which was brought over from the annexation from the county. 00:28:47
In 2018, I believe the. 00:28:58
Council changed the zoning under the general plan and removed the ability to even have. 00:29:00
A conditional use of office in an room. 00:29:08
With that in mind. 00:29:12
We were hoping to expand our office and talk to Wayne Jansen, who I'm sure all of you have driven by. 00:29:15
For years and years and seen Wayne's insurance agency, we asked Wayne, who is under a similar restriction with a conditional use 00:29:23
for office. 00:29:28
If he would be interested in selling to. 00:29:33
And so we would increase the size of our. 00:29:36
And in connection with that, we inquired with the city as to what our options were and what they said was well. 00:29:40
When we pass the General Plan. 00:29:46
We instituted this new PO zone, which was going to be a buffer between. 00:29:48
Murray Holiday Road and the Neighborhoods. 00:29:53
And Office use is a permitted use. 00:29:56
And then additional mixed. 00:29:59
Would be under a conditional use permit. 00:30:03
So with that in mind, we made Wayne an offer and bought his property in 2022 and he moved out. 00:30:06
At the end of the year here. 00:30:13
So with that in mind, what we wanted to do is increase our office footprint because under the current zoning, under our 00:30:16
conditional use, we cannot change. 00:30:21
The footprint of our office, we can't put a second story on it. We can't make it bigger. We can't do anything with it other than 00:30:27
continue our use. 00:30:31
So given the fact that the. 00:30:36
That the emphasis of the city was to create the holiday half mile. 00:30:40
And create a buffer. 00:30:45
Residential and commercial uses with a complete restriction on retail. 00:30:48
We thought it was an opportunity for us. 00:30:54
Build a new office. 00:30:57
So we started the zoning process and probably. 00:30:59
Jumped the shark a little bit or jumped the gun and proposed a mixed-use. 00:31:03
Plan which went to the city, which went to the Planning Commission. 00:31:10
And understandably, the neighbors are concerned about high density setbacks. 00:31:18
In that zone. 00:31:26
I would remind everybody that this is at least a two step process. 00:31:28
First of all, we have. 00:31:32
Get an office zone. What we would like is an office zone so we can continue. 00:31:34
With our office use, we want to stay. We want to be neighbors. 00:31:39
We want to be part of. 00:31:44
But we need a bigger office. 00:31:46
And so that's our. 00:31:47
That's our goal and that's our plan and to offset some of the costs of redevelopment and the cost of construction. 00:31:51
We thought we would add some multi family uses. 00:31:57
In order to offset the cost. 00:32:03
And and make it. 00:32:05
Well, basically build into the value of the property because as we all know, holiday. 00:32:08
City property values. 00:32:13
Are very high and to put a little, tiny. 00:32:15
On a very valuable piece of property, it doesn't make economic. 00:32:19
So. 00:32:24
So given the fact that the city. 00:32:28
Past the General plan. 00:32:30
And the emphasis of the general plan was to create a professional office zone. 00:32:34
And I'll quote we want to. 00:32:40
Let's see, it says the professional office zone is defined as the purpose of a PO zone is to set standards for areas in 00:32:44
appropriate locations for professional and business offices, personal services, and other compatible uses such as commercial day 00:32:51
care facilities. Developments in the PO zone are intended to be compatible with the budding residential uses and to buffer 00:32:57
residential developments or zones for more intense land uses. 00:33:03
So given the fact that. 00:33:10
The management of the rezone requests is detailed in 1344010 and there are kind of three factors. 00:33:14
And they are, are you. It's as they occur within a general plan district supporting appropriate. 00:33:22
Either a professional office, mixed-use development or or other similar areas such as the Highland Dr. Small Area Master Plan 00:33:30
area. 00:33:34
We're simply asking to be allowed to continue our uses in office as a permitted use rather than a conditional use, which will 00:33:40
allow us some flexibility in redeveloping the property. 00:33:45
And upgrading and updating the buildings that are. 00:33:51
#2 It says it will result in an upgrade of the building and or site. 00:33:56
Our building and our site, each of those buildings is approaching 70 years old. 00:34:01
They. 00:34:06
They look outdated. They look like what they are as converted homes from the 1950s. 00:34:07
Our plan our. 00:34:13
Is to redevelop a. 00:34:15
New office building. 00:34:17
And an office, almost like an office park. 00:34:20
We are planning on putting a fountain in the middle between the two existing buildings. 00:34:23
Redeveloping, adding a bit, you know, adding some. 00:34:26
And making it a very nice looking. 00:34:30
Product which will integrate on the holiday half mile. 00:34:33
And the last one is, will it enhance property values? 00:34:38
We believe that a new aesthetically pleasing compatible development within the holiday half mile will certainly in the long run 00:34:42
increase. 00:34:46
The aesthetics of the neighborhood and increase the value. 00:34:51
I without repeating myself, you know, I think what Carrie said was. 00:34:58
The zone is. 00:35:04
By what the City Council did in 2018. 00:35:06
By wanting to have professional office, not wanting retail. 00:35:10
And you know the bottom line. 00:35:14
If we can't increase our office size, we'll have to look for an office someplace else. 00:35:18
And instead of developing under a PO zone. 00:35:23
And coming back here and then talking about conditional uses. 00:35:27
Then we're left with an RM zone and that changes the way we would develop the property and we don't want to do that. 00:35:33
Currently the room zone would allow us to build 3. 00:35:43
Units on 2061 and 4 units. 00:35:47
2051. 00:35:51
With 20 foot setbacks and 30 foot height. 00:35:52
So we believe we have that as a matter of right at this point. 00:35:56
And with the. 00:36:03
Any changes from the Office use for mixed-use would require a conditional use. 00:36:06
Which would then bring us back through the Planning Commission, bring us back through the City Council. 00:36:12
And require. 00:36:17
You know, cooperation with the. 00:36:19
To come up with something that would be compatible with the neigh. 00:36:21
Get some agreement with the neighbors and then present that plan. 00:36:25
Let's see if I have anything else in my notes. 00:36:30
I didn't follow my outline very well. 00:36:33
Sorry, just one. You had a 30 foot height, but I just want to make sure that you didn't misspeak there. I was thinking it was 35 00:36:36
feet that you were entitled to. Currently I think it's 35. 00:36:40
Is it 35 in the room and 40 carry? Sorry. 00:36:47
I believe. 00:36:50
35 in the room, right and 20 foot setbacks, right, I think, Is that right? 00:36:52
And then we have 30 foot setbacks. 00:36:58
And 40 feet, 35 feet. 00:37:01
40 feet high but additional I probably ought not have commented, but I just want to thank you. I don't want to appreciate 00:37:05
propagate probably. 00:37:08
Yeah, I mean, it's going to come up, but you know, the bottom line. 00:37:12
In the PO. 00:37:15
An office is going to be allowed. It will allow us to improve the building. It will allow us to provide you a nice looking set of 00:37:17
buildings. 00:37:21
Instead of putting lipstick on a pig. 00:37:25
And continuing our current use. 00:37:28
And you know the the conditional use with additional. 00:37:31
Apartments, and frankly, my partners in Miami would like to have an apartment to come to in the winter to ski and in the summer 00:37:37
when it's too hot. So that was kind of the impetus for wanting to have. 00:37:42
A couple of apartments and then to offset the cost of the development. 00:37:48
To have a couple of additional apartments. 00:37:51
To help us with the income stream and pay for the development was kind of our idea. 00:37:54
So I think at this point. 00:38:00
I'll sit down and let everybody tell you how it's going to ruin. 00:38:04
City in the neighborhood. 00:38:08
OK. Thanks. I'm glad you're going to stay. I think before we open up the public here, I'll make a couple of clarifying comments on 00:38:12
the public hearing, but. 00:38:15
Once the public hearing concludes, I don't think it's going to be very long before we get from the public hearing. 00:38:20
To the discussion on this for those that are waiting around to hear that so but before I open up the public hearing, we like to 00:38:27
limit limit it since we've got quite a few people to. 00:38:32
3 minutes for an individual in 5 minutes for a group if you're speaking on behalf of the group. 00:38:39
We will never stop anybody from making public comment at your right as a citizen. This is your house. But I will tell you it's not 00:38:49
helpful for us to hear. 00:38:53
10 people say the exact same thing. So if you want to speak for 10 people, have a standardized or haven't, we appreciate that it's 00:38:59
not required that that that will be up to you. 00:39:03
And with that, I'm going to open up the public hearing on this rezone application. 00:39:08
Before I invite anybody to the podium, I want to. 00:39:14
Read into the public record that we have received 8. 00:39:18
The the full council has received 8. 00:39:23
E-mail responses to this or comments to this. All of them are generally not in favor of this rezone application. The addresses are 00:39:26
on the e-mail, so I will not. I'll save the time not to read them. They are from David and Diane, Dean, Myron, and Suzanne Wills. 00:39:35
Jesse Black. 00:39:45
Jamie Covington, Kay. 00:39:47
John and Chris Erickson, Troy and Michelle Neerings and Debbie Hafer. 00:39:50
Do you know if I missed any Stephanie or is there anybody out there that sent an e-mail that's here that I may have missed you? 00:39:59
OK, so if you want to comment to us, you can, but I just want you to know that we all have these emails in our inboxes and either 00:40:06
have or will read them as part of the deliberation process. 00:40:12
And with that, this public hearing is open. I ask you to please come up to the podium, state your name and address. And again, if 00:40:19
you're speaking as an individual, keep it to 3 minutes or less. Or if you're speaking on behalf of a group, show us who the group 00:40:24
is and try to keep it to 5 minutes or less. It's open. 00:40:30
Good evening. Hi, I'm Jamie Covington. 00:40:40
Do you need my address? 00:40:43
1956 E Sycamore Lane. 00:40:45
Regarding the applicant, you guys all received my e-mail, so I'm sure you know how I feel about the. 00:40:49
Redevelopment. 00:40:54
Just to know a little bit about my background, My father is a developer. My brother is a developer. My brother, my other brother 00:40:57
is a real estate developer. 00:41:01
And a law attorney. And my other brother is in real estate for commercial development. 00:41:06
So I do know a little bit about the process of how this should go and I am concerned about how the city is handling it. First, the 00:41:11
purchase of the property of this land. 00:41:16
Should not be the responsibility. 00:41:22
To make it a wise investment for the applicant, I am sorry if he purchased the land thinking he had approval to change and rezone 00:41:25
it, but no person in real estate would recommend purchasing a piece of land that is not zoned for the use that you require. 00:41:34
So he purchased this land with a big risk. And yes, it's an expensive piece of land and that is unfortunate, but it is not our 00:41:43
duty as a city or as as city citizens to support his poor investment. 00:41:50
And that's that's the way it is. I feel bad. 00:41:59
Because that is money. It's somebody's money and it's somebody's livelihood, but that is not our responsibility to take care of 00:42:02
that. 00:42:06
Additionally, the applicant says that he has grand plans for this piece of land and that it's going to be beautiful. 00:42:11
Has a submitted plans. 00:42:19
Have you seen those plans? If those plans are submitted, why aren't they being made public? So that we can agree to the fact that, 00:42:21
yes, that will be beautiful for our neighborhood. We agree to that and the city then holds the applicant to those plans. Because 00:42:29
it's the same thing if I if I go to my house and I say I have grand plans for my house and it's going to be beautiful. 00:42:37
I could do none of that because all of a sudden, when it comes down to it, it's too expensive. That fountain that he plans for, it 00:42:46
might be too expensive. He's not going to suddenly put in that fountain. 00:42:51
And the setbacks that he's going to have as he plans it out and has architect and an engineer work it all out, he's going to 00:42:56
realize, Oh my gosh, it's so much more expensive than I thought. I'm going to have to build another unit or I'm going to have to 00:43:02
put in more parking. And all of a sudden a grand plan becomes something smaller and smaller and smaller because he hasn't done his 00:43:07
homework. 00:43:13
I haven't seen plans. 00:43:19
And he should have done his homework and say these are them. I've already done my due diligence. I've already have it here for 00:43:21
you. 00:43:24
This is going to be better for the community, but he just has grand plans and that is what we're resting on. Are we making the 00:43:28
decision on grand plans? 00:43:33
Last, I am very concerned about how the city is handling construction right now. 00:43:39
There are so many safety concerns lately. You have private vehicles and equipment resting and parked on city property, public 00:43:45
property, the streets. There are no safety guards, no traffic people redirecting. There are no 88 compliant people sidewalks to 00:43:55
redirect traffic. Children walk this path, including mine, twice daily to the junior high or to the library. 00:44:04
And that sidewalk needs to be clear. And the city is not holding the current construction at Holiday Hills, at the condos by 00:44:14
Macy's and the Apollo Square development to make those sidewalks accessible. 00:44:21
I don't know why this is acceptable and if there was. 00:44:28
An accident. By heavens, the city should be held responsible. 00:44:32
And I would hold them responsible. And that should be a concern. That should be a concern for the city attorney. That should be 00:44:36
something that you guys want to watch for. 00:44:41
I am concerned about our behavior for that. 00:44:46
Additionally, I think one of the last things that I brought up safety and I brought up all these other things about him not doing 00:44:49
his, the applicant not doing due diligence, the last thing we need to be concerned about. 00:44:55
It's the fact that, oh, sorry, let me get it written out. I have it written out. 00:45:03
There is no proof of need. 00:45:17
Basically, when you are considering rezoning, generally City Council members need to prove that there is a need for that and right 00:45:19
now commercial real estate office space. 00:45:25
Is at an all time low. 00:45:31
You can get off space for darn cheap because there are so many vacancies all around. Even within our city there are vacancies all 00:45:33
around, so the applicant cannot say. 00:45:38
I don't have anywhere else to. 00:45:44
We don't need to accommodate because there isn't a need right now. Not in this market, not for commercial, not for office space. 00:45:47
That's all. 00:45:54
Thank you. 00:45:55
Just come on up. 00:46:01
We're not going to call them in order, just when the podium MP's walk on up and give us your name and address. 00:46:03
Good evening. 00:46:14
My name is Jesse Black, address is 4740 Sycamore Dr. 00:46:15
That property is about 3 lots to the north of the corner in question. 00:46:22
What I wanted to point out tonight is if you are made aware of or participating in the Planning Commission meeting, the change in 00:46:28
energy between this meeting and that meeting. 00:46:32
I think what the difference is is a message that was carried away that we're getting a three story building on that lot whether we 00:46:37
like it or not. 00:46:42
Whether it's all residential or mixed-use and the applicant kind of reiterated that threat a little bit in his opening remarks 00:46:47
tonight. 00:46:51
And I think most of your constituents in this area were pretty disenheartened from that and feel disenfranchised from the this 00:46:55
whole planning process walking away with that feeling. I I know I'm not the only one that came away with that sense because I've 00:47:00
had discussion with other neighbors. 00:47:05
With respect to that feeling that we're getting a three story building one way or another and it doesn't really matter. 00:47:11
What I wanted to say is as a resident in that proximity, it's not that we're opposed to a business or mixed-use there. It's the 00:47:18
three story building is completely out of character for that corner. If you took the Apollo building condos and plopped it there, 00:47:24
it would look terrible in my opinion. If it were a two-story edifice similar to the dental office across the street, I think that 00:47:31
would fit in quite a bit better. We're worried about parking and traffic. 00:47:38
It's already constrained. That's a very busy corner already. 00:47:46
People whip around that corner coming down Murray Holiday Rd. There are times when it's really hard to make a left off of Sycamore 00:47:49
Dr. onto Murray Holiday Rd. 00:47:53
So, you know, adding more traffic, more parking is gonna be problematic. Maybe we go a full Sugar House and put traffic lights 00:47:58
every 10 feet and put one on Sycamore Dr. If we need to. At least they have sidewalks in Sugar House, right? Anyway, we're 00:48:04
concerned about parking on the street. So as this moves along, assuming it's one way or another, something's gonna be approved 00:48:11
there. We just asked the the Planning Commission to consider. 00:48:17
Traffic parking to make sure there's sufficient parking, whatever ends up there to keep. 00:48:23
Cars off the street. Thank you, Thank you. 00:48:30
Hi, Mike Stone, 2050 Delmont Drive. And we're concerned with this because we're there right back store neighbor. We've got a small 00:48:46
rendering here. Our house is. 00:48:52
One there and then a proposed building. 00:48:59
It would overtake our backyard. 00:49:02
We'd lose the ability, we think, to do a garden. 00:49:05
They'd look down on our family at the party. 00:49:08
We think property values for our home will go way down because this large building is in our backyard. We're concerned that 00:49:12
parking would come up on our street in front of our house. We'd always have. 00:49:18
Four to five cars in front of our house. 00:49:24
We're just concerned because it's going to affect us directly because we're right behind them. 00:49:27
And we think our property values will go way down and very concerned about it. So thank you. 00:49:33
Thank you. 00:49:40
Good evening. I'm Dave Parkinson. I live at 4714 Holly Lane. It's just around the corner from the property in question. 00:49:52
I'm here speaking on behalf of my wife and myself and also. 00:50:00
Dave and Diane Dean, who are the property owners immediately to the east of the subject property. 00:50:05
Unfortunately, they're in the Caribbean. 00:50:13
I know that doesn't generate a lot of sympathy. 00:50:17
Like that's better than here. 00:50:20
And also speaking on behalf of Dave and Eunice. 00:50:24
And Chris and Julie Burch, who live on Holly Lane and our neighbors of ours. 00:50:28
So this presentation also supplements a letter that we sent to the Planning Commission back on December 1st. 00:50:34
Of 2020. 00:50:44
So I've lived in holiday for over 50 years. 00:50:46
Holiday historically is a walkable. 00:50:50
With open sight lines. Please understand that my wife and I are not opposed. 00:50:53
To the development of the holiday corridor, we recognize that it. 00:50:59
Going to happen. We recognize that in many cases it's needed. 00:51:05
We believe that it can be done in a way that will actually enhance the value of the adjoining neighborhood properties. 00:51:13
But we are strongly opposed to the requested rezoning. 00:51:21
Change because the requested PO zone, while we like the concept of a PO zone in general. 00:51:25
As illustrated in this case by Mr. Helston's proposal, would permit a three story office building. 00:51:33
Backing onto single story residential properties. 00:51:41
That's something that does not exist anywhere else. 00:51:45
The holiday half mile, including the Apollo Square. 00:51:49
Which backs onto 2 story condominiums. 00:51:54
We request that the zoning change application be denied and that further change applications. 00:51:59
Be held until a small area master plan. 00:52:06
Is developed for the holiday half. 00:52:09
Our request is based on the. 00:52:12
1st As staff notes in the staff report, the City of Holiday General Plan states that development. 00:52:15
Of the holiday half mile quote should be guided by a small area master plan. 00:52:24
Second, the requested PO zone and this addresses point number. 00:52:31
Three of the three items that are applicable for PO zones. 00:52:36
Point #3 provides that preference for the zoning change should be given to those properties. 00:52:41
Quote which will enhance property values and contribute. 00:52:47
To the economic sustainability of the city, close quote. 00:52:51
The use of the plural values. 00:52:55
Indicates that the impact on the value of the adjacent properties is also to be taken into account. 00:52:58
A three story building looming over a newly remodeled single story residence will not enhance the value of the nearby residential 00:53:05
properties. 00:53:10
As mention. 00:53:15
The requested zoning would permit a three story building in this area and it's not consistent with the other development which has 00:53:16
taken place all up and down the holiday half mile corridor. We typically have single story or two-story buildings along the 00:53:23
corridor that includes the the the small mall area. 00:53:29
Up on the north side, next to the holiday village, that includes the other office buildings that have been developed on there, the 00:53:38
dental office. Everything else along there is. 00:53:42
One and two stories, with the exception of the. 00:53:48
Apollo Square development, which I believe is in a commercial area and it does back onto. 00:53:51
2. 00:53:59
Condominium. 00:54:01
Additionally, Olympus Junior High School and Olympus High School are great educational. 00:54:03
Cultural and recreational assets in our community. 00:54:09
And their lifeblood as teenage students, they'll divert for a second and say that was really awesome that you honored. 00:54:13
The young. 00:54:20
All right, that's 5 minutes and like 5 seconds a mile. 00:54:21
He was really cooking. That's awesome. 00:54:25
OK, so the lifeblood of those schools is teenage. 00:54:28
Families with junior high and high school students or aged children are typically found in single family residential neighborhoods 00:54:34
and not in one and two-bedroom apartments and condos. This isn't to disparage the one and two-bedroom apartments and condos, but 00:54:40
simply to point out. 00:54:46
That the neighborhood. 00:54:52
Adjoining the subject property needs to be protected for the sake. 00:54:55
Of the junior high and high schools. Preservation of the residential neighborhoods benefits the community as a whole. 00:55:00
5th Holiday Village and Holiday Hills. 00:55:08
Each has a small area master plan. 00:55:12
They are economic jewels for our community. They should be. 00:55:16
By a uniform and appropriately developed corridor. 00:55:21
And not by knotted together kite string. 00:55:25
Of piece meal developments along that corridor. 00:55:30
After all of the time and effort spent in developing. 00:55:34
The holiday village and I noticed out on the wall recognition for the quality of this development. 00:55:38
After all the time and effort spent in developing the holiday village all of the time and probably millions of dollars literally 00:55:45
in legal fees spent in coming to an acceptable. 00:55:52
Resolution. 00:55:59
The Holiday Hills. 00:56:01
Those two jewels deserve to be connected. 00:56:03
By a uniformly developed corridor that will both highlight them. 00:56:07
And enhance the value of the adjoining residential properties. 00:56:12
Please put in place a small area master plan. 00:56:19
And protect the holiday half. 00:56:23
And the adjoining neighborhoods. 00:56:30
As I know many of you. 00:56:33
I love. 00:56:35
I love this area. 00:56:37
I have grown up here. 00:56:40
And we can preserve it and protect it and yet let it develop in a way that will be consistent. 00:56:42
With the increasing pressures we have for homes and for commercial space and development. 00:56:50
We can do this in a way that will benefit all. 00:56:59
For the record, we're willing to work with Mr. Helston to see if an acceptable arrangement for his property can be reached. We've 00:57:02
already met with him on one occasion and had several discussions with him. 00:57:08
We're also willing to work with the city in the development of a small area master plans. We have talent in our neighborhood that 00:57:14
would be helpful in doing that. 00:57:18
Thank you. 00:57:23
Come on. 00:57:33
Suzanne Wills, Sycamore, 2015 Sycamore Lane. I just wondered if it would be possible to have the Planning Commission meeting. 00:57:41
All the responses and all of the comments that. 00:57:52
Here, with all of those seats filled. 00:57:56
Could those minutes be forwarded to all of you? 00:58:00
You have access to them. They have been. That's all public record. 00:58:03
OK, because I tried finding it today. 00:58:08
On the website, I couldn't find it. So I was concerned that you didn't hear any of it, but you did. We've got the staff report 00:58:11
from the Planning Commission meeting with all of the comments from. We can get that if 50 council members want it, we can get that 00:58:17
to them. That's all public record. OK, thanks. I just wanted to make sure. Thank you. 00:58:24
Hello, my name is Adeline Black. I live at 4740 Sycamore. Dr. Jesse Black, who spoke earlier, is my father. 00:58:45
I'm sorry if I don't sound as formal or knowledgeable as everyone else who has spoken here. 00:58:55
I'm one of the younger residents of the city. I'm 18 years old. I freshly started working earlier this year in about August. 00:59:01
And right around that corner where the building is being built is particularly where I walk by to go to work. 00:59:08
And I already have several areas where I cross by. 00:59:14
On my way to work and I'm already. 00:59:19
Struggling to try and get by cars without being hit and I'm worried that if this building goes up. 00:59:21
I'm just going to end up getting. 00:59:28
And I think I would have to completely change my route to work, which will make my track longer. 00:59:32
Just to avoid being killed. 00:59:39
And I get off my work shifts frequently around the same time that a lot of junior high kids that over there do, and I see them 00:59:41
coming home from school or heading down to around some of the nearby shops and stuff after school. 00:59:49
I'm scared though at some point if this goes up that. 00:59:58
Walk by and just see ambulances and police cars after someone gets hit and killed there. 01:00:02
And it might be me. It might be some poor kid. It might be some other poor. 01:00:08
But that's just my concern. That is all. Thank you. 01:00:13
Anybody else tonight? 01:00:25
OK. We're going to move on. So just as a reminder. 01:00:30
This public hearing remains open. 01:00:33
So if you want, if you or anyone of friends want to make written comment to the council, send them to Stephanie the Recorder, or 01:00:37
if you want, if. 01:00:41
Somebody that is not able to be here or would like to comment, The public hearing will remain open on February 1st. 01:00:47
If they want to address the Council at that point. 01:00:55
So anyway, thank you everybody for your comments and we're going to keep moving. 01:00:59
To. 01:01:04
Item number seven. So this is the vote on the previous public hearing. This is the subdivision amendment to title Title 13. Any 01:01:06
final comments before we take a motion? 01:01:11
Or. 01:01:19
Mr. Merritt of approval of Ordinance 2024-01 adopting amendments to Title 13 regarding subdivision processes. Second motion is 01:01:24
second from Council member Brewer will go to vote Council member Brewer, Council member Durham Council member Fotheringham, 01:01:31
Councilmember Quinn, Councilmember Gray and chair votes yes and. 01:01:37
That ordinance is adopted. Thank you Council. Item number 8 is just appointing a Council Member Gray to the Wasatch Front Waste 01:01:45
and Recycling Board. I would just need a motion for the advice and consent. 01:01:51
Mr. Chair. 01:01:57
Move approval. Thank you. I move approval of Resolution 2024-04, granting the advice and consent of the appointment of Emily Gray 01:02:03
to the Wasatch Front Waste and Recycling Board. 01:02:08
2nd, we have a motion in a second we'll give it to Council member. 01:02:14
Councilmember Brewer? Yes. Councilmember Durham? Yes. Councilmember Quinn? Councilmember Gray. 01:02:19
And chair vote chess. 01:02:27
And you're approved. And thank you for your willingness to serve. That's a great board. 01:02:29
Dan loved. 01:02:33
Item number 9 is City manager report. Nothing for me tonight. Nothing from the City Manager will go to Council reports. We'll 01:02:35
start with Councilmember Brewer. 01:02:39
I'll defer to somebody else to comment on the luncheon, but maybe I'm aware or Drew but intended that yesterday with the mayor and 01:02:44
I really have nothing else beyond that other than there's been much activity around this this issue for tonight, but that's 01:02:49
really. 01:02:53
Bulk of what's been going on in District 1, so OK. 01:02:58
Matt, I just wanted to mention, you might have seen the banner out front for the naloxone training on January 2420. Fourth, it's 01:03:02
part of the. 01:03:06
Work being done by the Healthy Happy Holiday Coalition. 01:03:11
And helps people understand how to use naloxone kits to prevent opium overdoses. 01:03:15
And is open to the public, so I'd encourage people to attend. I think it'll be really useful. 01:03:22
Thank you. 01:03:28
Two items first this afternoon, a working group of city staff and the mayor and I. 01:03:30
Discussed the Spring Lane Park progress with with a couple of different potential architectural landscape architect firms. 01:03:38
We came to a decision about how to move forward, but that project's in place where we'll we'll starting to be looking at. 01:03:48
Amenitizing spring lane as a as a public park and so that that's that's going to be a quick process but it'll involve over the 01:03:56
next several months. 01:04:00
Reaching out to the community and stakeholders and the nearby residents primarily. 01:04:07
And PM find an interesting process to watch that park property development next. Earlier this week, the Arts Council met and it 01:04:14
was our first meeting with our new. 01:04:20
Arts and Culture Manager Megan Aderman and went tremendously. 01:04:27
And there's a lot of excitement, a lot of energy and a lot of confidence in our new leader in that organization. 01:04:31
Thanks, Paul. 01:04:39
Thank you. Earlier this week I have been to both Driggs Elementary and Churchill Junior High Community Councils. 01:04:41
Both of them were. 01:04:49
Discussing the statements made by Governor Cox about removing cell phones Cell phones from. 01:04:51
From classrooms entirely. 01:05:00
Obviously the elementary school level doesn't have as much of an issue with cell phones as the older group. 01:05:03
It was interesting to hear the Churchill Junior High discussion. 01:05:12
Because different junior highs around Churchill. 01:05:16
Have different policies. 01:05:19
And so one thing that might be interesting to everyone is Churchill has arranged for Ben Horsley, who? 01:05:21
With Granite District to come on February. 01:05:29
To Churchill Junior High and talk with the Skyline, Wasatch and Churchill communities. 01:05:33
About this and about what I. 01:05:39
I don't know. 01:05:42
Anything as far as what? 01:05:44
The district if they have formulated a policy district wide or not, but. 01:05:47
That is certainly going to be a big. 01:05:53
Discussion in all of. 01:05:56
Education. 01:05:59
Communities. 01:06:01
The new policies will go into effect. 01:06:04
In this next fall. 01:06:08
I met with Cottonwood and Oakwood Community councils this week and Oakwood is incredibly grateful to Chief Hoyle and everybody 01:06:14
from the city. 01:06:19
And working out the traffic situation there, it's going considerably better than it was at the beginning of the year and they're 01:06:25
very, very grateful. So thank you for that. 01:06:29
The cell phone discussion also came up, not surprisingly. 01:06:36
The understanding of the meetings I was in is that Granite District is doing a study this year. 01:06:40
To determine, it sounds like different schools and different classrooms have different policies and then different levels of 01:06:46
enforcement. 01:06:49
And so, but the tenor of the meetings I was in is probably similar to the a lot of. 01:06:54
People were very supportive of a more unified. 01:06:59
Policy across the board that would be helpful for on a school level to help teachers and principals to kind of. 01:07:03
Have a unified. 01:07:10
Along with Drew and the Mayor and Ty, we were able to meet with. 01:07:13
The our state representatives at the legislature yesterday. 01:07:20
As I think most, most of you know that the main, one of the main issues that the legislature going on is, is the issue of 01:07:24
affordable housing, which we all know is. 01:07:29
Is a big problem in the state and especially tricky in the city of holiday, which this issue that we're discussing tonight. 01:07:33
Kind of touches on a little bit and I would just say that I was incredibly impressed and grateful for the leadership that we have 01:07:42
at the legislature that understands. 01:07:47
The unique position of Holiday and other E Bench communities. 01:07:52
In trying to address those issues while recognizing the limitations that we have in our city. 01:07:57
Yeah, that's what we did. Thank you. 01:08:04
I was gonna mention Oakwood too, so I I I had that same comment from the principal there. So I'll just echo what Emily said and 01:08:07
thank thank you, chief. He spent a lot of work on this. 01:08:13
With his officers July through September, trying to help the Elkwood community manage that and we appreciate that engagement. 01:08:19
Captain Brown, thank you very much. He met with our youth council yesterday at station 104. We had, gosh, I would say 20. 01:08:29
20 kids there. 01:08:38
Really good showing. Talk about naloxone and. 01:08:39
Overdose issues we had. 01:08:45
We had. 01:08:50
Happy healthy holiday study and. 01:08:51
We ranked very well in certain areas, but believe it or not, holiday per capita is one of the highest in terms of overdose 01:08:54
overdoses in the county. So we went through that. We did some. 01:09:00
We you did some CPR training with the kids, they they did a station tour. Anyway, it was it was a great event. So thank you to you 01:09:08
and and the crew at 1:04 for taking some time out for those kids. 01:09:13
Just as a reminder, the Historical Commission will have a presentation on the Moyle family and their impact in holiday over the 01:09:20
years on the 29th at 7:00 PM. I think it's here in Council chambers for those interested in holiday history. 01:09:27
Those have become pretty interesting little presentations, and so this month it'll focus on the moil the Moyle family. 01:09:34
And the Interfaith Council be meeting next Wednesday. I'll meet with them to just kind of download our comments from the 01:09:43
Interfaith service in November. 01:09:47
And that's Mr. Mayor. If I could ask your permission to extend the one more point I forgot to make, You may thank you. 01:09:54
For his stellar service to the UFA board, I'm sure Dan Captain Dan would agree. 01:10:40
That UFA is a better place because of the mayor's service. 01:10:44
Thanks, Thank. 01:10:48
Appreciate those comments. It was, you know, it's an honor to serve in this position and it's equally been an honor to serve on 01:10:50
that board. It's an incredible organization as an unified police. We're lucky to have them both. So thanks, Paul. I appreciate 01:10:54
that. 01:10:58
With that, we will just take a motion to recess to recess council into work session. 01:11:04
Mr. Move, we recessed council meeting and reconvene in a work meeting. 01:11:10
2nd we have a motion to 2nd Councilmember Quinn. All in favor, Say aye, aye. 01:11:17
Aye, aye. Any opposed? 01:11:23
I didn't think so. We are now in work session magically. 01:11:25
And the first item in the work session, as we discussed earlier, is this previous rezone public hearing. This is where we'll have 01:11:30
an open discussion about this particular application with the understanding that. 01:11:35
We'll continue to take input through through February 1st and have the vote at that point. Kerry is here and available for any 01:11:42
questions for staff as is. John. 01:11:47
As well as the applicant. 01:11:52
I don't know how we want to kick this off. I'll go ahead and start with a couple of questions. 01:11:57
Either John or Kerry. 01:12:05
One comment was raised by the young woman, Miss Black, about walkability. Is there anything about a zone change from current RM to 01:12:09
PO that would point toward? 01:12:16
A reduction in walkability in the neighborhood surrounding that building. 01:12:24
So. 01:12:33
The setbacks with the PO Zone bringing the building closer to Murray Holiday Rd. That bringing buildings closer to roadways 01:12:34
creates a pedestrian friendly environment. 01:12:40
Redevelopment also would. 01:12:47
The requirement of the property owner to install sidewalks so sidewalks would now wrap all the way onto Sycamore Lane where 01:12:49
there's not a sidewalk currently. 01:12:54
Would that be true? Whether? 01:12:59
Whichever. 01:13:01
Zone was in place. 01:13:03
Yeah, that's a requirement for any redevelopment. Property owners, if they're redeveloping or rebuilding a house, our. 01:13:05
City Engineer will look at the application and put their requirement for sidewalks on the application or not. This one, where it 01:13:13
is on a major corner, would require sidewalk installation. So redevelopment of any kind, whether it's under RM or PO on that spot, 01:13:20
would likely improve, arguably improve rockability as a result of having to put sidewalks in where there are none now. 01:13:28
Thank you. 01:13:36
Stay there, Carrie. 01:13:38
I have just a couple of questions. 01:13:41
Is there a difference or are we able to quantify a difference in intensity of use between the RM and PO zone? Is there any 01:13:45
difference in potential intensity of use? Do you know is intensity the amount of coverage or I think probably more what you're 01:13:53
getting through comment is the amount of traffic that would be generated through the use? 01:14:01
And. 01:14:10
Currently. 01:14:11
I think the major concern is the entrance of traffic from Sycamore, so it's on that corner. 01:14:14
Right now there's a driveway that exists on the property there. 01:14:20
There with traffic flow commonly on corner properties, anything that's commercial, you may see entrances on both sides of a 01:14:25
corner. 01:14:30
But that's not a function of the zone. That would be more a site plan issue, a negotiation of site plan where entrance and egress 01:14:35
would be. 01:14:39
Yeah, and that could be something that would be looked at if the applicant wanted to do mixed-use and at a conditional use. So the 01:14:44
Planning Commission could have some oversight over that. As is, if he were to redevelop as an RM, it would just be under the 01:14:51
review of the city engineer, and if that meets a standard distance back from the corner. 01:14:58
We're a driveway entrance. 01:15:06
Because there's not anything in the code that prevents the location of driveway entrances beyond standards. 01:15:09
From corners, so. 01:15:17
I'm new at this, So what you're saying is if it went through a rezone, it would then require? 01:15:20
An additional process through the Planning Commission for issues like. 01:15:28
Entrance and exits to the property to to deal with those kind of issues as far as. 01:15:33
Parking stalls and where they're exiting and entering the property, is that right? Or And then if it doesn't change and it's just 01:15:38
all within the room. 01:15:44
Zoning, then it's just an engineering decision. 01:15:51
Right, so. 01:15:55
The where it would have the additional oversight by the Planning Commission is with the conditional use permit. 01:15:58
So a conditional use in the PO zone is a mixed-use. So if the applicant wanted to just build an office building. 01:16:04
It would not require a conditional use permit. 01:16:13
Said if the applicant wanted to make some residential use with office use, that requires A conditional use permit. 01:16:16
So different scenarios here, if it stays as an RM zone can be redeveloped as a multi family. 01:16:24
7 unit right, 7 units across the. 01:16:35
Parcels would not require any conditional use or oversight by the Planning Commission. That's just rights that are associated with 01:16:39
the land it's already entitled now and if they locate the ingress and egress within that, that standard there would be as as it is 01:16:45
right now it would go on to could go in on the second or if they designed it that way as well as tomorrow Holiday Rd. correct? Yes 01:16:51
that would just require review by the city engineer. 01:16:57
Different scenario if it's rezoned. 01:17:05
You're looking at. 01:17:08
By right than being able to redevelop the property build. 01:17:10
A building with just office use that would not require conditional use or going to the Planning Commission. So same kind of by 01:17:14
right standards with the multifamily zone other city engineer might be taking consideration. 01:17:21
Its closeness to Murray Holiday and if it creates a conflict then then that's the the principle that you say as opposed to a 01:17:30
legislative decision. 01:17:35
Yep, just an engineering standard roadway to standard where driveway entrances can be located in relation to an intersection. So 01:17:42
if they design it to conform with that standard, they're entitled if they would be entitled to have an entrance and well ingress 01:17:47
and egress on the Sycamore and or Marie Holiday Road, right? Right. 01:17:53
OK, so. 01:17:59
Comments related to three stories and two stories. 01:18:02
35 feet? Does it allow three stories? 01:18:06
35 feet? I I'm not an architectural. I haven't reviewed what 3 feet? 01:18:10
Until the property owner could. If they're wanting to locate parking below, they could. 01:18:18
Dig lower and put parking below, and then do a building that's 35 feet from the natural grade. So there's still, if you're 01:18:25
counting out, parking as. 01:18:30
A level. It would still be the standard. You're either 35 feet at the room zone. 01:18:36
40 feet. 01:18:42
For the PEO Zone 40, I believe that in a commercial building when you're adding in more substantial HVAC systems, that's where 01:18:44
that additional 40 foot height for the professional office zone was considered. 01:18:51
I don't know if that entails then three stories or if it limits it to two stories. 01:18:59
Understanding with the additional 5 feet is primarily for first floor accommodation generally. 01:19:04
For the lobby floors allows them to be a little higher. It's not necessarily at an additional floor because we're not. 01:19:12
Oz providing housing for. 01:19:19
It's a political incorrect, say Munchkins. They're fictional characters. 01:19:22
And commercial developments have higher floors, but then there's the primary physical differences, footprint differences between 01:19:27
RM and Bo are initial 5 feet for that first floor accommodation, but then also that's offset potentially that's your point of view 01:19:34
with additional offset. 01:19:41
From a residential. 01:19:48
And then what's the difference in offset between RM and PO? 01:19:51
I'm sorry, the set back is what I'm looking for. It set back, so set back between residential zones, 20 feet for the RM zone. 01:19:55
And 30 feet for the forced to set back an additional 10 feet to buffer. 01:20:05
So if that's an exchange, it's five feet up for a higher first floor with. 01:20:12
Offset if you want to make those counter arguments with an additional 10 feet of set back requirement, yeah. 01:20:18
Yeah, to me, I mean. 01:20:26
I'll, I'll just speak my mind and then you guys can, you know, tell me if I'm out to lunch. 01:20:28
You know, regarding comments about seeing building designs and elevations and all that, that is not a right of citizens to see 01:20:35
that in my mind, unless we want to do a development agreement. 01:20:40
When you go build a house in a neighborhood and you bring in a permit to build your house. 01:20:46
You don't go around and show that your elevations and your plans to your neighbors to get their thumbs up. So that to me, that to 01:20:51
me is a non issue. 01:20:55
To me, what we're the only thing we're talking about is whether the PO zone. 01:21:00
The PO Zone is a proper application for this particular site. That's what that's what I'm considering because here's the in my 01:21:07
mind. 01:21:12
This is an RM zone. 01:21:18
The owner has a entitled property right under RM to do whatever is entitled on that site, so. 01:21:20
For instance, if these folks decide they don't want to build on that, they want to sell the property and they sell the property. 01:21:29
Whoever buys that property can come into the city with an RM application and as long as it meets. 01:21:37
The the standard set in the room zone, they are going to get a permit without public input. Is that correct? Yes. OK, so they have 01:21:43
an entitled property right under RM. 01:21:49
Period. So they're asking for a PO rezone application because they say they want to rebuild their office. 01:21:56
To me. 01:22:06
If you give them the PO rezone, they can come in with an application. 01:22:09
With whatever they want that aligns with the requirements of that zone. So and they're going to have to go through whatever 01:22:16
planning they have to go through in terms of their setbacks and their heights. And if there's there's probably no architectural 01:22:21
standards in that zone, correct. Right. So it's not even, you know, how does your building look and it's whatever they're entitled 01:22:26
to build there. 01:22:32
Whether they redevelop under RM or PO, Paul, as you stated, they're going to be required to wrap the sidewalks around and create 01:22:39
more pedestrian accessibility, so. 01:22:44
I don't know to me it might be a difficult issue, but it's pretty simple. It's it's. 01:22:50
It seems like it's being hung up on this five foot difference between a 35 foot height entitlement and a 45 and a 40 foot height 01:22:56
requirement and when the PO was created. 01:23:02
It was pushing the building away from residences and creating a bigger set back to try to protect residents. It was a little bit 01:23:08
more so. 01:23:12
I mean, that to me is the only issue if 40 feet is too high in a PO zone, I guess we can have a separate conversation about that, 01:23:17
but. 01:23:21
That's all I'm really thinking about right now. Is the PO zone a proper? 01:23:26
Application for that particular piece of property. 01:23:31
And if not, why? 01:23:36
And that's kind of the point of my detailed questions, but I feel the same way. Just wanted to verify what the physical 01:23:37
differences are between the two zones, what's already in place. And I wanted to verify that the changes in terms of physical 01:23:44
footprint and requirements are fairly minimal and in one case advantageous to the residents in terms of extending the set back 01:23:50
under PO. 01:23:57
Because again, I mean they're they're, they're the comments that they can do whatever they want with. 01:24:05
In the room zone versus the PO, well, I mean, there are some minor differences, but you know the the applicant is right and that 01:24:09
he's already entitled to RM. It's already RM and it can already be redeveloped. 01:24:15
Along those entitled rights. 01:24:22
And we'd have to to to to to prevent that the city would have to go through a taking which would create all kinds of legal 01:24:24
liability for the city and and also even if we were to create and I and I would encourage us to to to reinvestigate or or queue up 01:24:31
the idea of the small area master plan because it had been considered before and it kind of gotten. 01:24:39
Thrown in the in the in the ice bucket for a while because of some conflict with some previous council members. But it it's in the 01:24:48
general plan, it's referenced in the general plan, so it should be considered again. But even if we do the small area master plan. 01:24:55
The current entitlements would be grandfathered. 01:25:02
Otherwise it constitutes a taking. Am I right? 01:25:04
Jamie. 01:25:08
Yeah. So even if we put that in place, you can't impose. 01:25:10
New restrictive zoning requirements on an existing on existing entitlements without paying a huge price. 01:25:17
And so I'm in the same boat as you, Mr. Mayor, but that the point of my detailed questions was to try to point out where the 01:25:25
actual differences between the two zones are, and they're fairly minor. And there are some. 01:25:32
Trade-offs one of. 01:25:40
Pretty +1 I think for the residents. 01:25:43
Which is the additional set back. 01:25:45
Can can I ask a question about the small area master plan? 01:25:48
Is there? 01:25:52
Any obligation to create it? Or is it advisable to create it before we make this decision or? 01:25:54
Are those sort of separate issues that can be approached? 01:26:01
On separate tracks, yeah, it is in the general plan. The general plans, not a binding document. 01:26:05
It's advisory. 01:26:13
We as. 01:26:14
Staff and council, elected officials, we follow the general plan, but it's not binding. The language in the general plan is also 01:26:16
should. It's not a shell, so there's there's not an obligation. 01:26:22
Prevent an application or hold an application. 01:26:30
In order to develop a master plan first, many components of a master plan likely could be worked with the input of the property 01:26:33
owner. They are likely amenable to put some of those elements in in their plan as we work through this process. 01:26:40
Can I just ask, But it sounds like even if we did that small area master plan. 01:26:48
All of the the current rights under the RM would be grandfathered. 01:26:53
Anyway, so really, we're talking about 5 feet up and 10 feet. 01:26:57
Forward and as long as it's redeveloped, the sidewalk is that, is that my understanding that physically, yeah. But and then 01:27:03
there's the use changes. 01:27:06
I think another point on that too is that when the PO Zone was developed, we looked at RM properties that were being used as 01:27:10
offices. All of those properties that are right there in that chunk on Murray Holiday Blvd. between the village and Royal Holiday 01:27:18
Hills were all looked at with the development of a PO Zone, knowing that those could be redeveloped with these standards. 01:27:25
Bringing the building 10 feet back from the from the sidewalk creates a pedestrian friendly. 01:27:33
Environment, which is a main goal of that holiday half mile. 01:27:41
And the creation of the PO zone, in my view at least the current application seems to fit the purpose. 01:27:45
For which the PO zone was created in the first place. 01:27:53
Can you explain why? Can you explain how it is that you know these have been office? Well I guess they were homes maybe built in 01:27:59
the 50 S or whatever. At what point did they become office and why were they put into an RM zone rather than some type of a zone 01:28:05
that? 01:28:10
That for which that was an acceptable use, sure. So the county zoning for room. 01:28:17
Included office uses and multi family uses as both being permitted under county so when in the same zone. So when the city 01:28:23
incorporated we retained that zoning from the county and allowed those. 01:28:31
To uses in the room zone. 01:28:38
As I think there was some conflict between office uses or wanting to expand office uses for like medical offices or dental offices 01:28:42
which were not allowed in the overview of permitted uses in that room zone. So staff was directed to study what creating a new 01:28:51
office specific zone would look like and taking all of those office uses out of the room zone and putting them into the PO zone. 01:29:01
A little footnote to her answer because it was really good and on point. I can't speak to specific parcel by parcel, but. 01:29:12
You had county zoning that pre dated the cities incorporation and then the city zoning. 01:29:20
You do have some non conforming uses, and state law recognizes A nonconforming use by right. So if you're using a property and 01:29:26
then it's zoned as something different, you can continue in the use that existed before that zone. And the rationale for not 01:29:33
zoning it to the new use that well, based on its current use to a new zone that's created that conforms with that use. The 01:29:40
rationale for not rezoning at that point is why. 01:29:46
Well, it would be whatever the policy priorities were of. 01:29:55
City at the time, so some cities, and I don't know if this is the case in holiday with these properties, but some cities will. 01:30:00
Recognize a non conforming use, allow it to continue, but when the property redevelops they wanted to be something different. 01:30:08
And so they will zone it as what they want that used to be in the future. 01:30:15
And it's the council's policy priorities that will govern that choice. 01:30:21
And then the non conforming use can remain as long as the property is not physically altered. 01:30:26
And you don't have new structures, but if it is redeveloped, then it would have to be redeveloped according to the zoning of the 01:30:32
time it's redeveloped. 01:30:35
And we generally don't proactively. 01:30:39
God, someone changes. They're brought to us, so you will find from time to time. 01:30:42
Properties that exist and are used a certain way, but if you look at the zoning. 01:30:46
It doesn't match exactly what's happening on the property. So at the time the Council's or you know, those that were planning 01:30:51
essentially decided that multifamily would be the most appropriate long term use for this space. Is that correct? 01:30:58
That's fair, yes. Where? That's how it's currently zoned that. 01:31:06
Would have been the priority of the Council at that time. 01:31:10
But that would have. 01:31:13
PO at that time, correct if it was a county zoning that was carried forward. 01:31:16
That the fact that it was on that way at one point in time doesn't change. 01:31:21
Your right as a council to consider what you feel is appropriate at this time, right? So in effect the PO zone. 01:31:26
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not created for this purpose to take a non conforming? 01:31:34
Use like a like an office so that they could rebuild their read, you know, rebuild their structure for the same use so that they 01:31:40
could then rezone to have it be appropriate pulled out from that, from what were the two different uses applied to the the 01:31:47
pre-existing zone, right. And then be zoned correctly. Is that right? Yes. And that's addressed in the purpose of the PO zones. 01:31:53
That is the purpose of the PO zone, Yeah. 01:31:59
OK. Thank you. One other question back on this question of the small area master plan, I appreciate Mr. Parkinson's comments on on 01:32:08
this and. 01:32:12
Let me ask, it's interesting the way you know and they are two jewels that we have really as far as the city is concerned with the 01:32:18
village in holiday hills. 01:32:22
And that and that corridor is significant. 01:32:26
And I don't like the idea of it not being well planned, right? 01:32:31
And it's I, it's odd. I would say how it is right now where east of I'd have to pull up my map. It's just inconsistent between 01:32:35
Olympus Junior and I believe it's it's Hugo that's is that Hugo. 01:32:42
Where there's some, there's some residential, I guess. 01:32:51
When, how and when and where would this be addressed to have it be maybe better planned is that as we redo our master, you know as 01:32:56
we revise our master plan, that's the time to do that and or when would a small area master plan have been contemplated if we had 01:33:01
done that right, the council can decide if a small area master plan should be developed for that area and can direct staff to do 01:33:07
so. 01:33:13
As is. 01:33:20
Just. 01:33:23
Redevelopment potentials that are there and it's any of those properties that are RM could be rezoned as PO that was likely a 01:33:25
consideration. Another place where you could incorporate some of those standards that you might want in the holiday half mile is 01:33:31
in the general plan which we are. 01:33:36
In the process where we'll be getting the process of. 01:33:44
We're doing much of our general plan in the next year or two. 01:33:47
So the holiday half mile can be addressed more directly or fully in the general plan at that point? 01:33:51
But you know, even if you do a small area master plan, which we did, we did the Highland Dr. Master plan and it doesn't. 01:33:58
Eliminate these conflicts because. 01:34:03
People still have grandfathered property rights, correct? So I'm not saying. 01:34:06
We could do that. 01:34:11
And we have debated this area. We eliminated retail in that stretch. We had this debate. We eliminated retail along that stretch, 01:34:14
the holiday half mile for that very reason with the same argument is. 01:34:20
Is and and there was. 01:34:26
Heated argument about. 01:34:29
About whether we should allow retail along that stretch and the council decided no, because we wanted to make sure retail was 01:34:32
focused in the two nodes that were brought up, Holiday Village and now Holiday Hills. So we didn't think retail was appropriate 01:34:37
there. So this isn't the first time we've debated that. 01:34:43
Stretch of that holiday half mile. 01:34:49
But getting back to, you know, the application itself. 01:34:54
Is I'm not decided on this and probably gone on, but maybe a little bit too long, but I think this is really important because 01:34:57
it's obviously a kind of contentious application, but I'm going to have to spend a little bit more time on the staff report. 01:35:06
Where it talks specifically about the Planning Commission. 01:35:15
And they review their neutral recommendation and it references 2 reasons why the application basically went to neutral. 01:35:20
One is because and. 01:35:28
Specifically that the rezone would not one result in an upgrade to the building and or site, which I don't really understand. If 01:35:31
they're going to rebuild, it seems to me that would upgrade the site. 01:35:38
Or two, enhance property values or contribute to the economic sustainability of the city. 01:35:44
So I'm going to try to understand why. 01:35:51
Those two findings came out what the justification was behind that? And because that's the only reason I could see, probably #2, 01:35:56
that's the only reason I could ever come up with to deny the application, is the justification under that. 01:36:03
Piece what is meant by upgrade? What does that term mean in the context of the master plan? 01:36:11
She upgraded a building or site. 01:36:18
Just redevelopment in general, improvements. 01:36:22
It's likely that the Planning Commission didn't see because we're just looking at an application for a rezone. 01:36:26
What that redevelopment looks like, so the applicant is stating an intent to redevelop. That is their desire to. 01:36:34
Use that property for redevelopment. But the Planning Commission didn't see something physical or a building plan or anything like 01:36:44
that. I think that's where that basis came from, is that they didn't have sufficient evidence to show that. 01:36:51
Redevelopment would. 01:37:00
Sorry, go ahead. 01:37:03
Just to clarify, I know that one of our speakers. 01:37:06
Did talk about the fact that there are no plans yet. 01:37:11
At what point? 01:37:15
Would the plans be required and would there be another Planning Commission? 01:37:17
Meeting when those plans? 01:37:23
He has part of the approval process for those plans, right? And that that's part of that the by rights associated with land and 01:37:28
the zone. So same discussion that we had with an RM Zone if the applicant could apply for a building permit and build to the 01:37:34
standards of the RM Zone. 01:37:40
Without having any sort of public input, having to present any plans to the public. Same thing for anybody building a house or any 01:37:46
development on any property. The only time that they would. 01:37:53
Have that additional public oversight in a public hearing is with a conditional use. So if they were to have a rezoned PO approved 01:38:00
and want to do a mixed-use development. 01:38:06
If they were to submit an application for redevelopment either under RM or PO, just a basic building permit, anybody can request 01:38:12
those records through a grammar request. 01:38:18
So if they did you, if they did do office space with multifamily housing after they got the PO development, that would be 01:38:24
conditional use and would require another public hearing, yes. 01:38:30
And an opportunity for staff to. 01:38:37
Take into account the neighboring, the the wishes of the of the neighbors to to reduce the impact on the neighbors that that 01:38:41
conditional use might bring, right? Right. Conditional uses are essentially A permitted use with additional conditions that are 01:38:48
put onto a property to mitigate impacts. So if a neighbor says, oh, there might be some traffic impacts, then the Planning 01:38:56
Commission would come up with a condition. 01:39:04
To offset that impact from traffic. 01:39:12
This whole case is interesting to me. It makes me think of this. The saying of you better be careful you asked for because you 01:39:15
might get it right if you put yourself in the shoes of all those that have emailed us and the concerns of the residents that are 01:39:21
around. They better be careful what they ask for because they might get it if it if it were to stay. And if we were to deny 01:39:26
they'll have 35 foot, they could have 35 foot buildings 20 feet from their backyard. 01:39:32
Undesirable shore for that, for that individual. And that's sad. I had this. Something similar happened to me. I've got a 01:39:39
neighbor. He's a wonderful person. I love him. But he built a second story on what was a single story before. I think it's about 01:39:44
35 feet high. I don't know what the highest rate is for a single family residence, but it's high. It serves no functional use, 01:39:49
It's all just trusses. And it blocks my view of my Olympus too. 01:39:54
That's life. 01:40:00
And and so it's important to note that that if if we did deny this rezone for whatever reason those residents and and they the 01:40:03
residents got their way, you could say that might not be very desirable still for them if it does. 01:40:10
If we did approve the PO zone. 01:40:19
They same same thing was the difference of 10 feet and that and it's important that the applicant also recognize that there is no, 01:40:23
absolutely no guarantee of any conditional use being permitted and he may be stuck with offices and nothing else. 01:40:30
And so that's important for them to recognize as well, right? 01:40:37
And so perhaps what might you know, we we also want harmony in the city, right? And we want and we want people to to be happy with 01:40:42
where they are. Perhaps what might be the best answer in this situation is this if, if, if the. 01:40:50
Applicant is serious about wanting this condition. We can't require that he then go in and seek a conditional use. But what might 01:40:59
be the best outcome would be for him to seek a conditional use so that the the residents concerns could be met and and addressed 01:41:05
by the Planning Commission when they when they grant that conditional use correct. 01:41:10
Is it common or unusual when seeking A rezone like this to have plans that can? 01:41:17
Be reviewed and evaluated to determine whether they meet these criteria in the master plan. 01:41:25
For the PO zone, it's more unique where it was created with. 01:41:31
Specifically knowing that applicants may want to redevelop, there's been several properties that have either redeveloped or kind 01:41:36
of remodeled their buildings to incorporate some additional office spaces. 01:41:43
Some applicants have decided to keep the room zone because they want to redevelop as a multifamily property, so it gives the 01:41:51
applicant various options. However they would like to use their land if they want to continue it as an office use. 01:41:59
The PO zone is most appropriate. 01:42:07
But they do have to have go through that rezone process. 01:42:10
But considering redevelopment, I think one of the points in the PO zone is that a priority is given to applicants who do want to 01:42:16
redevelop their property. 01:42:21
So it's kind of an incentive almost for land owners who want to continue the use of their property to create more office uses or 01:42:27
expand their office use to redevelop. 01:42:33
But I guess my question is, there have been some concerns raised about the fact that there isn't really a plan. 01:42:40
And the master plan seems to contemplate that we're able to see whether it's increasing property values and if it's consistent 01:42:45
with the neighborhood and whether it's an upgrade to the building and so at this. But is it normal at this stage to not have a 01:42:51
more clearview of what the plan is? 01:42:56
I would say yes, because there's a lot of details that could still change. We don't want to present necessarily hard and stone. 01:43:03
Development plans. 01:43:10
That the applicant or the public perceives as this is what's going to be built because there's not a set application that that is 01:43:12
what's going to be built. 01:43:16
When you're doing the conditional use permit at that stage, then you would have a more concrete plan. 01:43:21
I don't want to open a can of worms. 01:43:28
Great ways. Yeah. Great way to lead in. 01:43:31
Has it been contemplated to seek a conditional permit use in the existing zoning for office? 01:43:35
And along with the multifamily. 01:43:41
So in the room zone, conditional use for a mixed-use development is not allowed. OK great. So the other option would be to go back 01:43:43
and do a text amendment to make a mixed-use. 01:43:49
In the. 01:43:56
Which then almost puts. 01:43:58
To what it was yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:44:00
I think, I think you laid it out pretty well. I was trying to. 01:44:03
Say the same thing you said, but not nearly as eloquently. I mean, but it's pretty simple. 01:44:09
If the properties redevelop, the pedestrian issue is resolved either way, right? Regardless whether it's RM or PO. 01:44:15
If it is rezoned, PO and the applicant does indeed. 01:44:25
Want to put residential onto that site? Make it a mixed-use development. There are going to be conditions placed on that which is 01:44:29
a risk the developer is going to have to take. 01:44:35
Correct. Because then there's going to be neighborhood input, and that's certainly going to be. 01:44:40
Blended into those conditions, I would assume. 01:44:46
So, and which is to your point, Be careful what you ask for because. 01:44:50
If that if that rezone is not approved, the property owner had and I want residents to understand this, the property owner has an 01:44:55
entitled property right under RM. 01:44:59
And if for instance, they decide that they either want to redevelop the site themselves and say forget it, I'm done with the PO, 01:45:05
I'll just develop under. 01:45:10
They can bring in a application. 01:45:16
And as long as it checks the boxes, they will get a building permit at 35 feet if that's just how high they decide to go, and 20 01:45:20
feet. 01:45:25
To the residences, to the. 01:45:30
Right. 01:45:33
And or if they sell the property, that's the property right, that's going to go with it. So that's what I think the council is 01:45:34
wrestling with right now and I don't know which way I'm at at this point. I need to spend a little bit more time on those two 01:45:40
points that came out of the Planning Commission that I'm not quite clear on, but that's. 01:45:45
Kind of sums up where I'm at on it at this point. 01:45:52
Anything else? Any other questions for me? 01:45:58
Any further applicant while he's still here? 01:46:02
Sorry to grill you like that, Carrie. 01:46:09
Yeah. 01:46:12
The public, the public hearing is still open. I would prefer that we not start bringing people back up. If you've got comment, 01:46:15
maybe make it via e-mail or call Ty or come back on February 1st because the public hearing is still open. 01:46:21
We are still. 01:46:29
For all the public comment but we're going to move on to the next item on the agenda at this point. One thing on that Mayor if 01:46:30
ideally an e-mail that we can distribute to the whole council. It's just nice so that you know if I have one-on-one interactions 01:46:36
with people it's not productive and not and not not beneficial. I don't believe it's it's best that it be something that could 01:46:41
that I can easily share with the whole council so we can all be on the same page. I'm not the only person that that votes on this 01:46:47
you know so. 01:46:52
Anyway, thank you. We know this is a we know this is an emotional issue. We appreciate everybody's civility. 01:46:59
Thanks so much. 01:47:05
All right. We're moving on to item B on the work agenda. And I believe this is Anne Francis. 01:47:08
On moderate income housing. 01:47:16
Don't be offended, Anne, that nobody wants to stay and listen to your moderate income policy. 01:47:22
Will stay. 01:47:28
We're here for you. 01:47:30
What we brought to you today was the moderate income housing strategies and I'm looking for direction. I know I brought it to you 01:47:34
last July when we were reporting to the state for our annual reporting and we talked about the challenges associated with that 01:47:40
reporting. 01:47:45
And. 01:47:53
Now the reporting is due again in August 1st and we want to prepare ourselves for that. So we were looking at direction from 01:47:53
council to start evaluating and researching some of the strategies that were applicable towards a holiday. And in front of you 01:48:00
you'll have a chart I think. 01:48:06
That I put together that outlines the statute descriptions and the applicability to holiday. 01:48:15
Currently we have 6 strategies in our plan Chapter 5 plan. 01:48:26
And. 01:48:32
They are posted here on selected and current plans, so some of them. 01:48:34
That I think apply our strategy. 01:48:39
K&X the other items you'd see some of the. 01:48:44
Issues associated with those strategies, so if you had a chance to review them. 01:48:51
I'd like to get some kind of feedback from you on how to move forward. 01:48:58
Which ones to that you think we should start evaluating and researching so that we can get it to Public or Planning Commission? 01:49:03
And then get it back to you in time to do some reporting for this fiscal year. 01:49:12
So this. 01:49:19
So we did this in July and had to have it end. 01:49:21
Didn't we have to have it by December or was it October? 01:49:25
So is it a calendar year requirement? When are we, we're required to resubmit every year, right? Resubmit a report, a report, 01:49:30
right. Is that what is that what we're doing here is deciding what we want to add to that report? 01:49:36
What we want to report? 01:49:42
And when's that due? 01:49:45
We can turn that in anytime, but do we have a time requirement like does it have to be by December of 2024? We have to have it. 01:49:47
I'm just wondering if we're under a timeline. 01:49:52
On this or am I thinking of the wrong thing? 01:49:59
I think that the initial report had a timeline and that was already submitted. So we already have a plan. 01:50:01
That's been approved, but we can make revisions to that plan, OK. And then we report annually correct and report annually to on 01:50:09
those on the plan. But the initial report needed to be submitted before December and that was the biggie and that was initially 01:50:16
that was done already. So we've already done. 01:50:22
We have an approved plan already. So we came up with the requirements that you I'm just trying to figure out like get a baseline 01:50:29
here, but so we had to come up with what three or four different items under was it SP34? 01:50:37
Originally and now the question is, are there other things that we want to add or do we have to? 01:50:46
Right now it's it's challenging with what we currently have. We can't report on it any longer on the ones that we reported last 01:50:55
year because we don't have measurements and tasks associated anymore from what we already reported on. 01:51:02
So now we have to come up with other items to report on and that's where we're trying to figure out. 01:51:12
There's nothing there that we really can report on right now. 01:51:17
So let me make sure I really understand what's what you're implying. 01:51:21
Because we've got these, as you say 6 items currently in the plan, correct? And those were that was like the minimum we had to 01:51:26
come up with at least six and we chose the six. 01:51:31
And. 01:51:37
Another year has passed. We have to have more than six. We don't have to it just. 01:51:39
It'll help us report and stay in compliance. Well, so, So what is getting us out of compliance and inability to measure on the 01:51:44
ones we've selected? Correct. There's not enough tasks that are in there. If you look at the current plan, there aren't tasks 01:51:52
associated with those action items and there are no deadline or no. 01:51:59
They're the ones we selected of someone else's options, so isn't that their problem, that they came up with options that were not 01:52:08
measurable? 01:52:12
I just hate to take on more than we're we're having to because I think I'm concerned about is, I don't want to. 01:52:17
Do things where we won't get credit because these are state mandates and and we have I share the objective to to assist the 01:52:24
affordable housing thing but. 01:52:30
That's still separate from the state mandate To do so, you know where we darn will need to get credit for. 01:52:37
You know whatever we do to go against the mandate. So I'm so I'm still a little. 01:52:44
Where you're suggesting we should pick additional items that. 01:52:50
Have more measurable parameters to them so that we can appear to be waving our hands more quickly and impressively pretty much. 01:52:54
The current plan, I'm sorry. 01:53:05
I was just going to you pointed out three BK and X. Does that mean we have to come up with three additional is that the minimum? 01:53:08
No, there's no minimum associated with it. Those are the ones that I just thought that. 01:53:16
We can get those low hanging fruit type of items that we can add to the plan and report on. 01:53:21
Now the states wants to know that are you going to be reporting on these on a biannual, quarterly, annual basis, so that every 01:53:28
year we actually can report on something. Does that mean we can swap? 01:53:34
Do we have to add 3 or can we swap 3? 01:53:41
You can swap 3, but we've already completed some of those, so we don't want to take them out. We want to show progress. Really 01:53:45
trying to accomplish what just seems to be reporting to. 01:53:50
Is this just a? 01:53:58
You know incremental creep where we're just going to be driven to do all of these things overtime, is that the likely? 01:54:00
Play here. 01:54:07
Jamie. 01:54:09
That's a good way to put it to me. The difficulty most cities have had with this is. 01:54:12
Those that have been good actors with respect to moderate income housing in the past. 01:54:20
Get no credit for. 01:54:26
And so Holiday is a good example of that because it's a city that has within the last few years approved significant. 01:54:28
Multi family housing projects. 01:54:37
And the best way to drive toward affordability is to increase the housing stock. 01:54:40
But you get no credit for. 01:54:45
Being in a good place to begin with. 01:54:47
And all you have to do is kind of turn the screws every year of we're going to do a little bit more, we're going to do a little 01:54:49
bit more and that tends to be the requirement. 01:54:54
Right. Now you get to pick the areas where you want to do a little bit more, but then it's submitted and it's approved and it's a 01:54:59
little bit. 01:55:02
Difficult to tell what is the criteria exactly they'll be considering lots of cities have had their. 01:55:06
Initial plans kick back and told that it doesn't comply either because. 01:55:12
While it's good, they've already done it. 01:55:18
Or they don't view it as being quite far enough. 01:55:21
But I think what you're going to find is that every year you have to find. 01:55:25
More in some other way, either to do more within an existing strategy or implement a new strategy that you add to the list. It's a 01:55:29
ratcheting process. So can I just add one thing? I mean all of what we're talking about is pre legislative session this year. 01:55:38
There could be changes. We anticipate there will be changes. This could look a lot different on March whatever it is 9th. 01:55:47
Yeah. And are you saying that there aren't tasks or things to report on because? 01:55:56
The six things that we selected in the. 01:56:02
Or at least some of them have been accomplished. And so we need to find something else that we can now accomplish. Is that the 01:56:05
idea? Correct. And there's a few things that you know are in the pipeline people are discussing. 01:56:10
But we can't claim it. We can't report on it because it's not in the plan. We allowed for 80 years citywide, for example, right. 01:56:16
What is there to measure? It's just done. Is that is that kind of what we're saying exactly, Yeah. Yeah. Unless, unless you come 01:56:21
up with other steps that you want to take. 01:56:27
To further either reduce the hurdles. 01:56:33
We're getting an Adu. 01:56:36
In someones backyard or in their? 01:56:38
That was something where we can keep on the list and keep reporting on every single year. 01:56:42
But if we're done, we feel it is generally legislatively as a policy we're done and we're comfortable with where we are with ADUS. 01:56:47
You won't be able to report on it. We might want to select something else. 01:56:54
Now were these ones? 01:56:58
That you were proposing. Are they because you feel like we? 01:57:01
They're low hanging fruit as. 01:57:05
Fairly easy. 01:57:08
Come in compliance because we're either already starting that process or it wouldn't be difficult. Is that why you suggested the 01:57:10
one? Yeah, that's why it's OK. So those are. 01:57:13
They're valuable to the cities residents and lowers affordability, cost for people for their housing. 01:57:18
Is that BK and X? 01:57:25
Yeah. 01:57:28
You've gone through this list for. 01:57:30
Understanding. 01:57:33
The unique challenges in holiday and how difficult this is to even. 01:57:35
Do anything that's going to impact the issue? 01:57:40
And basically said, I think you might have some opportunity under BK and X. 01:57:44
To make some headway, right when's our next reporting requirement? I'm sorry, the next reporting requirement is August 1st August. 01:57:49
One thing it seems like maybe, given that we're in week one of a session where they're going to be waving their arms very 01:57:59
impressively up there about housing. 01:58:03
This discussion may be premature. 01:58:09
Given that. 01:58:11
As Gina mentioned, I implied things could change dramatically in terms of what the mandate is going to be after this session. 01:58:13
I don't know how quickly that would. 01:58:21
Just don't. I think we want to make sure we had started the discussion in case that doesn't change. 01:58:25
Or even if it does change, I can't, wouldn't it? That would affect a later year. Don't you think that anything they change or do, 01:58:30
would they make changes that quickly? 01:58:33
I think it's possible to make it for the next reporting session. 01:58:37
I just want to make sure you have all the tools you have in your report. 01:58:42
Another example would be I think we're looking at. 01:58:50
Strategy F. 01:58:54
I think it's on your screen. 01:58:56
Maybe it's just off the rezoning. 01:58:58
Rezoning for higher, which is currently on your list. 01:59:00
Rezone or rezone for higher density. 01:59:04
Residential develop. 01:59:07
That's becoming an increasingly difficult situation. 01:59:09
This community and this council. 01:59:13
That may not be something you want to listen. 01:59:15
Well, I mean, it seems to me that the alternatives you've chosen. 01:59:22
Makes sense? 01:59:26
And our kind of things. 01:59:28
Take on as low hanging fruit, assuming the list doesn't change. 01:59:30
During the current legislative session. 01:59:35
So are you just sort of asking for a thumbs up on moving forward on those three? Just researching some? 01:59:38
Task and some actions under those items. 01:59:44
Yeah. Or if there's elements that, you know, absolutely. 01:59:47
We're not going to be able to attain a report on. 01:59:50
Keep those off the list. 01:59:54
Start researching elements of those strategies that we will never work. 01:59:57
When it says providing resources that will help our residents toward improving energy efficiency, we're just talking about 02:00:01
educational resources and informational kind of things great. 02:00:05
Would if I don't remember when it was that you. 02:00:10
I don't even know what it was before I was on the council, but you changed it so that. 02:00:15
Property owners could qualify for some. 02:00:21
Rebate or something if they had for water. 02:00:25
Would that count on energy efficiency? There's water on hold, so that, so that would that qualify for this, right, all utilities, 02:00:29
all of that? 02:00:33
So we could get credit for that, correct. Right now we can't. If we don't have it in the plan, we'll get that on there. 02:00:38
But because they did it last year, would it still count if we, if they, if it continues for this year done. 02:00:45
But. 02:00:52
Ask John. We should keep that one on there, shouldn't we? 02:00:53
I mean, we've done it right. 02:00:58
We can report on it I guess, but. 02:01:03
But I mean. 02:01:07
Yeah. 02:01:10
Can we take it off? 02:01:15
Do one of the other ones, then in a future year bring it back on? 02:01:17
That's why I said we can swap, then we can just it's a game application them and trade off instead of just finally ending up with 02:01:23
all of them. 02:01:28
Well, John, I thought we were looking at. 02:01:33
Changing our Ord. 02:01:37
As far as detached Adu's, external Adu's. 02:01:39
So doesn't that qualify under the Adu is continuing to work with it? 02:01:43
We can give an A date that she can put on the report saying. 02:01:49
The end of. 02:01:54
September, we look at additional steps that we can amend our accessory doing. 02:01:56
That has yet been put through the process, so we're waiting for that to be. 02:02:03
Report on. 02:02:07
So that we get credit. 02:02:09
Well, as long as we're talking about it anyway, let's get credit for it. 02:02:11
It's a game of giving them enough to satisfy them, but not more. Is that right? 02:02:16
Because then you have to give them more next year. Yeah, exactly. You just have to be careful that we're not going to commit to 02:02:21
changing a specific element. 02:02:24
We're looking at we're. 02:02:28
We're going to create specific groups and by this state we're. 02:02:30
Have some sort of. 02:02:34
Movement or. 02:02:35
Accepting more ADUS in our backyards than. 02:02:37
And add measurements to that like on an annual basis. We'll bring the conversation back. 02:02:41
To see what else we can do and evaluate and educate. And those are all things that you can add to the plan. 02:02:46
And he had credit for in future years. 02:02:53
So that's under. 02:02:57
That's in any. 02:03:00
OK, the water was under B, water's under. 02:03:02
I think you're on the right track. I mean, I think. 02:03:11
Go forward based on what we've talked here about, just making sure we're capturing what we're doing and then going after these 02:03:16
other things that are easy. 02:03:19
So, yeah, is that. I'm not sure we're giving you what you need. No, that's I want direction. I want the council to say, yeah, move 02:03:25
forward, evaluate. 02:03:30
Those and get it to the next step. Oh yeah, I don't, I don't know why we wouldn't want to do that, but but I think, yeah, it's 02:03:35
like. 02:03:40
I think we all understand what they're trying to accomplish here, but I was talking to Drew and Emily, who went to the 02:03:46
presentation on the like affordable housing is going to be the thing. 02:03:51
And we get. 02:03:56
But it's really difficult for us to. 02:03:58
Do anything that really. 02:04:01
Has a material impact, right so. 02:04:04
If there are items in here that you've looked at it and you know more about this than we do, right, in terms of what our 02:04:08
challenges are and what they're after saying, I think we have opportunity here, here and here. 02:04:13
That maybe we can make some headway and then we can report on it exactly. 02:04:20
That's the sad thing is that affordable housing is a lofty, a beautiful ideal, right? The reality is, is. 02:04:24
Holiday is just not an affordable place and there's not really anything that I don't believe can be done to make it, to really 02:04:32
make it affordable. It's all relative, I guess. 02:04:36
And I don't know. There is. You could have the government give the developer money to put in his pro forma right to make his 02:04:41
return work right. 02:04:46
I was in for that. I was like a neighborhood toxic waste dumps to devalue the properties, reduce the land cost. 02:04:53
That's a joke, for the record. 02:05:02
Look, it's a challenge, but we, I think there's some opportunities here, here and here, right? Let's start. 02:05:06
Working on that and see if we can make some headway that we can report on. 02:05:12
Yeah. 02:05:16
Super. That's a thumbs up. Thanks, Han. From a process standpoint, this will go to the Planning Commission to consider and then 02:05:19
come back to you for approval. 02:05:24
OK. Thanks. 02:05:30
Thank you. 02:05:33
Thanks. 02:05:34
Appreciate. 02:05:35
OK. 02:05:38
I think any final comments or a movement, any other business? 02:05:43
Mr. Mary, I have to adjourn. 02:05:48
Second all in favor, aye? 02:05:50
Thank you. 02:05:54
Since you're all there, let me just say thank you. 02:05:57
I think, I think. 02:06:04
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Transcript

Event transcript
Ready. 00:00:01
Good evening, everybody. 00:00:03
My name is Rob Daly and I am going to call the City of Holiday City Council meeting to order on Thursday, January 18th. 00:00:06
Welcome, everybody. I'm assuming you're not here for the subdivision amendment vote. 00:00:16
That was a joke. 00:00:22
And if you'd please rise, we'll start with the pledge. 00:00:24
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, 00:00:32
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. 00:00:39
Thank you before we move to public comment. 00:00:51
We're going to begin, unfortunately, on a bit of a somber note in the city earlier this week after a surgery last Wednesday. 00:00:55
Our finance director, Diane Barrett, suddenly passed. 00:01:07
It was a huge loss to the city. 00:01:11
And if you would allow me, I'm just going to read a note that our city manager, Gina Chamas, prepared for city staff. 00:01:15
Diane was the city's first employ. 00:01:25
And has served in her role as finance director since the incorporation of the city nearly 25 years ago. So Diane started when the 00:01:28
city incorporated, so she's been here the entire time. 00:01:33
Diane was devoted to her role into her. Phil employees, many of whom are finding this sudden loss difficult to process, will miss 00:01:39
Diane dedication. 00:01:43
Her Louisiana potluck specialties, including her pretty amazing jambalaya. She was from New Orleans. 00:01:48
And there will be grief support offered to city staff, but she's been a very good friend to all of us, as well as an employee. 00:01:56
Our condolences go out to her family, to Christine and and Frank and Michael. 00:02:06
And I think we'd just be remiss if we didn't start the meeting by recognizing the huge losses is going to be to the city. 00:02:12
With that, we will move to public comment and before we open up public comment, we have quite a few people in the audience. I know 00:02:21
a lot are here to. 00:02:26
Help celebrate the accomplishments of JoJo, which will be after public comment. And I know there are a lot of people here for the 00:02:32
public hearing on the rezone application. 00:02:36
So for those here for the 2, the rezone application, that will be a separate public hearing. We also have another public hearing 00:02:40
on a subdivision amendment we've got to make so. 00:02:47
If you're here to make public, comment on either of those two items. 00:02:53
This is not your time to comment. I will open those public hearings separately. If you are here to address the Council on any 00:02:58
other item that's of interest to you other than those two public hearings, now is the time for you to address the Council. So the 00:03:04
public comment is now open. I would ask you to come to the podium, state your name and address, and try to keep it to 3 minutes or 00:03:10
less. Anybody to address the Council on public comment. 00:03:17
Going once, going twice. 00:03:27
We will close public comment and move to item number 4. 00:03:31
This is the recognition for JoJo Jordan. 00:03:36
This is, and I've been talking with Brad Rutledge about this a little bit because, and I feel, I feel as a council maybe we've 00:03:40
been a bit remiss. We've got such incredible young people in this city. 00:03:45
And I've been doing this for 10 years and we have never really honored an individual at a council meeting. And you know what? We 00:03:51
should. And so when Brad called and he was explaining to me what the Nike Cross Nationals was, I was not aware of it. I'm not not 00:03:58
a cross country runner as you can tell my my, my physique. 00:04:05
And so I started looking into it and and realized what? 00:04:13
An incredible accomplishment. This is for this young man and for his teammates and for his family and for the community. So I want 00:04:17
to just start by maybe having Brad come up and talk a little bit about it. Then we're going to watch a short video and then we're 00:04:25
going to just make a short presentation. So Brad, I got to know Brad a little bit. When we started working on, he started wanted 00:04:32
to let me know about the proposed gondola, Little Cottonwood Canyon, which we won't talk about right now, but. 00:04:39
That's how I got to know Brad. So anyway, Brad, it's all yours. 00:04:48
Well, first of all, thank you, Mayor Dolly. And to the City Council, I recognize and you know, I've seen a lot of of what you guys 00:04:52
have done. And thank you so much for taking a little bit of time to recognize this. 00:04:58
As someone who ran cross country and track in high school and in college, and now my son is on the the Olympus high school team. 00:05:05
I was fortunate enough to get to know, you know, that the team, and specifically this boys team is really, really remarkable. And 00:05:12
when I look at what JoJo accomplished, you know, as I've gotten to know him just a little bit, it's truly, truly remarkable. 00:05:20
The NXN race is the Nike Cross Nationals. 00:05:29
And it consists of eight regional. 00:05:33
Qualifying meats across the United States. 00:05:37
And that is the national meat for all of those teams. There are 22 seven person teams that qualify in the boys, boys race and an 00:05:40
additional 50 individuals that qualified. So truly the top top runners in the United States were at this race. 00:05:48
And JoJo qualified individually, representing Olympus High and the City of Holiday. 00:05:56
And when when I look, when I watch the race live, it was fantastic and exciting and Jojos race strategy was phenomenal. And you 00:06:04
know the only other thing I really have to say is is someone that's really just met JoJo, his family and the team is that. 00:06:11
It really represents community. His teammates have been running together since junior high, training and pushing each other. And 00:06:20
to see, you know, this come out of, you know, Holiday City is really remarkable and I think JoJo and I were talking. 00:06:28
If you watch the race, they mention it on the commentary and and we couldn't find that just before. But in that race additionally 00:06:37
there were some 30 to 40 individual state champions that were racing for him to win. That is is truly, truly remarkable and so 00:06:42
thank you again to the city for recognizing him. 00:06:48
Thanks, Brad. And if we could queue it up, I'm going to say a few remarks after, but if Stephanie can figure out to cue this up, 00:06:55
we're going to. 00:07:00
Put up here the final. 00:07:05
Minute or so. Brutal to take your momentum, but if you can find it again, one look back but the gap looks. 00:07:07
It's closing. Not only do you have to crush that first hill, but you got to get over the second one. Now we see it straight on. 00:07:14
JoJo Jordan keeps looking behind him as he's getting cameras. Todd, best effort here in the closing stretches. 00:07:22
Everybody else trying to get to the finish. 00:07:31
But it would appear that Joe, Joe Jordan. With one final look, the smile emerges. 00:07:34
The celebration begins. He is the Nike Cross National Champion. 00:07:41
So I learned a few things when I looked this up. It was and I'll look at JoJo and he'll or Brad. You guys will tell me if I mess 00:07:58
this up, but it's a 5000m race. 00:08:03
3.11 miles He finished in 15 minutes and 16 seconds. 00:08:09
5. 00:08:16
Which is incred. 00:08:18
There were 204 individuals in the race. I don't know between teams and individuals. 00:08:20
But 204, that's a lot, but when you consider. 00:08:27
They came from 8 regions and you had to qualify out of those eight regions, so probably. 00:08:31
The large percent were eliminated in those regionals. It was just the very, very top people that actually made it to the finals in 00:08:39
Portland. OR was it Portland? 00:08:43
So just a really, you know, just an incredible accomplishment. But we have a lot of young people that do incredible stuff in the 00:08:49
city. We're very lucky and I think we need to take more time to recognize them. 00:08:55
And let them know they're shining a bright light on the city of holiday when they they make individual strides like, well, 00:09:03
strides. That's probably, well, that is the right metaphor. 00:09:08
So we just want to honor him for that. But also, and I was talking to Brad about this, I think it's also very important. 00:09:15
That even though this is an individual, he's an individual racer. 00:09:22
This is about, you know, your teammates, It's about the coaches that put in all the time and most importantly, it's about your 00:09:27
family support. And I, Jerome and Ivana, I know you must be very, very proud. He's heading to Wake Forest in the fall. 00:09:34
And so we just wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate you and say thank you. And I'm going to ask the council if they'd 00:09:42
come down. And we've just got a little certificate we want to give you and let us get a photo we can put in the journal. 00:09:48
Wow, I'm sure your friends will be so jealous. 00:10:21
We just have, we just have a little specific form congratulating him. But if you'll hold that and we get the council that squeeze 00:10:27
in here we get. 00:10:31
Then we've only allotted 10 minutes for your speech. So. 00:10:35
Congratulations. I was just kidding about the speech and we will be moving into the regular council meeting. And for those that 00:10:50
came here to support Jordan, you are welcome to stay. 00:10:58
It's going to be fabulous, the. 00:11:07
But if you have something else to do and you get up and leave, we're not going to be offended at all. So thanks for coming. 00:11:11
Move on to item number 5. Item number 5 is a public hearing on amendments of Title 13 addressing mandated subdivision processes. 00:12:08
In a nutshell, these are mandates that came down from the state that they're the. 00:12:16
Municipalities are required to make prior to February 1st to be in compliance with state code. We're going to ask John Tierlink to 00:12:23
come up and talk a little bit about this before we open up the public hearing. Or did I say all that needs to be said, John? I 00:12:27
don't know. 00:12:31
I don't want to steal your. 00:12:37
You can steal my Thunder any day. 00:12:41
So just a quick overview starting in November of last year. 00:12:44
We started this discussion with our Planning Commission as to what these new changes mean for them. 00:12:49
Primarily, it affects them. 00:12:55
This is a reiteration from the state level as to how subdivisions are to be handled. 00:12:57
In all municipal. 00:13:03
Primarily for the purpose of expediting, so to speak, subdivision of property so the development can take place. 00:13:05
Over the several years the state has always iterated that this is a non discretionary process. 00:13:14
Subdivisions that go through public hearings. 00:13:20
Planning Commission meetings. 00:13:24
From the point of view of the home builder, get delayed and when it's just meeting certain standards. 00:13:26
The intent is to quicken the pace. 00:13:33
So in this situation, the state has requested that all municipalities have a truncated process for reviewing subdivisions. 00:13:35
The process has been iterated in the draft that's been presented. 00:13:43
To you and recommended by the Planning Commission. 00:13:47
But essentially what it does is it creates the at the staff level a land use authority which is required to oversee final Platts. 00:13:50
In some municipalities, that is a responsibility of City Council. 00:14:00
That's not the case for holiday. The Planning Commission takes over that role for. 00:14:04
And less in this situation of a public St. dedication then the plat would come to you as it has just recently. 00:14:09
However, the Technical Review committee has been charged with. 00:14:17
Administered now. It's been administering sort of a preliminary concept review. 00:14:22
And a final plat. 00:14:28
Review and that final plat. 00:14:30
Has been required to happen or occur in four distinct review cycles. 00:14:33
If for some reason the municipality can't meet those four review cycles, there's an appeal process. 00:14:39
In my 17 years that I've been here, I don't think holiday has ever had an issue with. 00:14:46
Reviewing subdivision plat. 00:14:51
Thoroughly and. 00:14:53
However, this just iterates that process from the state level. 00:14:55
Cleanly requires it throughout all municipalities. 00:15:00
Typically, I mean this is more for the audience, but typically. 00:15:09
Public hearings like this are open and closed and we vote on it. The next council meeting give council plenty of time to 00:15:12
deliberate. 00:15:15
This is actually on the agenda for vote tonight, so I would encourage the Council if you've got any questions. 00:15:19
Prior to this coming up for a motion, I think this would be this would be the time right now to clarify any questions you have 00:15:25
about this particular. 00:15:28
Issue, John. So given what you've said it, can I assume that you don't anticipate this change creating? 00:15:32
A whole lot of change in our process or a significant amount of it of burden to staff. 00:15:42
Does it sound like the rest of the world is catching up to what we already do? Or it sounded like this seems like a fairly, at 00:15:49
least for our city, not a particularly heavy burden in terms of change. I wouldn't describe it as a heavy burden the way that you 00:15:55
originally and councils before you. 00:16:02
Formulated the subdivision procedure and approval process. 00:16:09
It allowed for steps to be combined together. 00:16:13
So as a technical rear committee at the staff. 00:16:16
We could work directly with the applicant to combine a concept in a preliminary level at one step or preliminary and final at one 00:16:19
step. 00:16:23
That process was already in place and that greatly speed that the subdivision review and approval process. 00:16:28
The second approach is that the Council granted the Planning Commission. 00:16:35
Authority to delegate the final Plat review. 00:16:41
Which is more or less. 00:16:45
A grammatical check with surveys and such. 00:16:47
At the staff and engineers levels so that they don't have to have that conversation in a public setting, a public meeting. 00:16:51
So that was already in place. 00:16:59
For the normal subdivision going through your process up until now. 00:17:02
Rarely, it would have three very distinct meetings. 00:17:06
Most of the time it was already 2. Anyway, this is actually bringing it down to. 00:17:10
John, I understand that this was a change mandated by state. 00:17:17
Statue. 00:17:23
How much discretion did we have in terms of drafting specific provisions? And are there portions of the ordinance that you think 00:17:26
we took a particularly conservative or a particularly aggressive approach on? 00:17:32
Specifically, the ordinance only limited the subdivision amendments to one and two lot and townhome subdivisions. 00:17:40
We applied that. 00:17:47
All across. 00:17:49
You don't have to do that. You can keep the same process with your, for example, multi family condo, plat. 00:17:51
You can keep a concept of preliminary. 00:17:58
Step, but to make things a little easier for the Planning Commission to wrap. 00:18:00
Collective minds around it was easier to keep that process that way. 00:18:05
Normally when you see amendments from staff, you'll see a redlined version. 00:18:11
We started getting into the subdivision processes and procedures sections of your code. 00:18:17
And discovered that trying to insert these processes was being. 00:18:22
Was problematic to follow. 00:18:29
So from the staff's point of view, we actually redacted your 13.10 section and rewrote it cleanly. 00:18:31
Because that section in the time that I've been here has been amended so many times. 00:18:38
It's a bit convoluted. We don't use the same terminology over every iteration. 00:18:42
This version cleans that up. We did take. 00:18:47
Some freedoms in doing that for you, but which is not required. 00:18:51
OK. Thank you. 00:18:56
John, it seems to me that. 00:18:59
Planning Commission's role has changed a little bit under the under this new statute. 00:19:02
Am I reading that wrong? You're not. Basically what this is is, is the state reiterating that municipalities process for approving 00:19:06
subdivisions is really not discretionary? 00:19:12
Meeting certain standards. 00:19:18
And the process is intended so that the Planning Commission just verifies that those standards are being met. 00:19:21
Does a lot size meet the minimum requirement? Does it have access? 00:19:28
Does it have utilities serviceable to the site? Is the engineering correct? 00:19:32
And so in this iteration, what they're saying is that the planning collisions in some municipalities were taking too long. 00:19:37
To process through those types of reviews. 00:19:43
Where they could be standardized and put forth to the. 00:19:47
For an administrative type. 00:19:52
Does the Planning Commission have less flexibility now? 00:19:54
They really didn't have much flexibility prior. Really all they were doing is. 00:19:59
1st at the concept level, verifying that the lot sizes were meeting the minimums. 00:20:04
The preliminary was more a construction level, the really heavy lifting of. 00:20:08
The development of the subdivision was taking place verifying that utilities are being provided. 00:20:13
And then the final is the actual recording document that goes to the county. 00:20:18
So in that process, as long as they're meeting certain standards of the zone. 00:20:23
An R110 zone, for example, the Planning Commission was there to verify that each one of those steps were being met and those 00:20:28
standards are being met. 00:20:33
Thank you. Their workload has essentially gone down. 00:20:38
For them. 00:20:41
But honestly, we only process maybe a dozen. 00:20:43
Being an infill as opposed to a Greenfield city, there's not a lot of opportunity for this anyway. A dozen at best per year is 00:20:48
that you're going to say or sorry, you said a dozen at best. Usually we average about a dozen subdivisions, which it doesn't seem 00:20:53
like it in annually, is that right? Yes, annually. 00:20:59
Yeah, so for the resident or property owner what how will they, how will things be different for them from a burden perspective 00:21:06
and or a timeliness perspective, like what? How will the from the resident point of view, you really won't see much of A change. 00:21:13
Other than the. 00:21:22
After your first public hearing, when the when the staff will bring the applicant to the Planning Commission for their preliminary 00:21:23
review. The public hearing and the noticing stays the same. 00:21:28
They still have an opportunity to comment. 00:21:33
Unless the Planning Commission continues the item for clarification for some reason to another meeting, there won't be other 00:21:36
meetings after that. 00:21:40
It will be held back with the applicant working directly with staff finishing the final steps. 00:21:44
So more timely than it has been right and the applicant from our we still are proposing that we you maintain your neighborhood 00:21:51
meeting requirement. 00:21:56
You have that neighborhood meeting that the applicant goes out and has their little pre meeting before the Planning Commission so 00:22:01
that they know what The Who the developer is, what's being proposed. 00:22:06
Rather than trying to explain that at the Planning Commission level. 00:22:11
That won't change. 00:22:15
It's the meetings after your public hearing. IS won't have any opportunities for other public meetings to participate in that 00:22:18
process. 00:22:21
So their burden is similar, I guess you could say then as it was previously or essentially the same, it's condensed but just more 00:22:27
time away in the end. 00:22:31
Thank you. 00:22:36
Any other questions for John? 00:22:40
OK. Thanks John. Thank you. OK, with that we will open up the public hearing anybody. 00:22:43
In chambers that wants to address the Council regarding this. 00:22:50
Amendment. 00:22:55
There being that I'm going to close this public hearing. 00:22:59
And move to item number six on the agenda. 00:23:03
This is a public hearing on proposed the proposed rezone for 2051 and 2061 E Marie Holiday Rd. From residential multifamily room 00:23:07
to professional office. 00:23:13
PO zone .49 acres. 00:23:19
This has been through the Planning Commission. We'll hear from staff in just a moment. And I'll just kind of tell everybody 00:23:25
there's a lot of people here, I'm sure for this particular public hearing. And so I'll just give you an idea how I think how I see 00:23:29
this going just so you have. 00:23:34
Some perspective on how we move through this process. 00:23:40
We'll have we'll hear from staff 1st and then if the applicants here, we'll hear from the applicant. 00:23:45
You may not hear a whole lot from the council during this portion of the meeting. I'll leave that up to the council members 00:23:51
discretion how much they want to talk here and how much they want to talk in the work meeting. But if you move to item number 11, 00:23:57
the first item in the work meeting which will be in these chambers is a discussion on previous rezone in the public hearing. 00:24:04
That's where you'll hear and this is open to the public and open discussion with the council and with staff on this particular 00:24:10
rezone application as it as it pertains to. 00:24:16
The Planning Commission's decision, the staff report, so on and so forth. 00:24:23
Unless something happens that I'm not anticipating, I will most likely keep this public hearing open until February 1st, which is 00:24:29
the next council meeting where I anticipate this will the public hearing will continue and be closed at that point and then go to 00:24:36
a vote. Again, it depends on what we hear here, but as I've said before, I don't I I think there's a lot of. 00:24:44
There's a lot of people that are concerned about this particular application, but I don't see it as being that complicated that it 00:24:53
would delay a vote on it. So with that, let's start with Carrie Marsh will bring have Carrie come up. 00:25:00
Would you mind clarifying that this is extended until the February 1st meeting? Will there be additional public comment on 00:25:10
February 1st? Yes, yes, yeah, public hearing will remain open on February 1st, but I anticipate closing it on February 1st, but 00:25:15
again. 00:25:21
I don't want to discount anything I'm going to hear here, but that's how I see it going at this point. If that changes, I'll let 00:25:27
you know here shortly. 00:25:30
OK, Carrie, come on up. 00:25:35
Thank you, Mayor. 00:25:42
So this application is for a rezone. It involves 2 parcels, 2051 and 2061, Marie Holiday wrote. They're owned by the same property 00:25:44
owner, and the property owner wishes to redevelop the property and retain their office use. 00:25:54
With wanting to retain office. 00:26:05
And redevelop or construct new buildings on the property, he would need to come into conformance with a zone that allows office 00:26:08
use. So that is the request from rezoning from an RM or that is a multi family use to a professional office use so that he can 00:26:15
redevelop the property and retain his existing office use. 00:26:23
With the PO zone, any sort of mixed-use doing residential mixed with an office use he would have, the applicant would have to seek 00:26:31
a conditional use permit that the Planning Commission will review and hold a public hearing on with parameters based off of. 00:26:41
Any potential impacts? Those will be addressed with a conditional use permit at that point in time. 00:26:52
The Planning Commission reviewed the application. They found it. They forwarded A neutral recommendation. They found that the 00:27:00
there was insufficient information of. 00:27:07
On points two and three that are in chapter 13.44, point 010B. 00:27:14
Specifically that the rezone would not result in an upgrade to the building and or site or enhanced property values or contribute 00:27:22
to the economic sustainability of the city. The applicant can detail those points a little bit more if the if the council wishes 00:27:29
to discuss that with the applicant. 00:27:35
Essentially, the main point here is that. 00:27:44
Moving from a nonconforming use or an office use in the room zone to the PO zone where an office use is allowed and that is why 00:27:47
the applicant or application has been brought to City Council. 00:27:53
Thanks. 00:28:00
OK. Is the applic? 00:28:04
Is the applicant here? Yeah, come on up. Would you give us your name and address, please? 00:28:07
My name is Brad Helston. My address is 3120 S Metropolitan Way in Salt Lake 84109. I live by REI. 00:28:13
For your. 00:28:22
We purchased 2061. My partners and I have two partners in Miami who are law partners of mine. 00:28:25
For an office because we wanted to be in. 00:28:33
We intended and intend to stay in holiday and grow our office. 00:28:38
We our office is currently in the room zone under a conditional use which was brought over from the annexation from the county. 00:28:47
In 2018, I believe the. 00:28:58
Council changed the zoning under the general plan and removed the ability to even have. 00:29:00
A conditional use of office in an room. 00:29:08
With that in mind. 00:29:12
We were hoping to expand our office and talk to Wayne Jansen, who I'm sure all of you have driven by. 00:29:15
For years and years and seen Wayne's insurance agency, we asked Wayne, who is under a similar restriction with a conditional use 00:29:23
for office. 00:29:28
If he would be interested in selling to. 00:29:33
And so we would increase the size of our. 00:29:36
And in connection with that, we inquired with the city as to what our options were and what they said was well. 00:29:40
When we pass the General Plan. 00:29:46
We instituted this new PO zone, which was going to be a buffer between. 00:29:48
Murray Holiday Road and the Neighborhoods. 00:29:53
And Office use is a permitted use. 00:29:56
And then additional mixed. 00:29:59
Would be under a conditional use permit. 00:30:03
So with that in mind, we made Wayne an offer and bought his property in 2022 and he moved out. 00:30:06
At the end of the year here. 00:30:13
So with that in mind, what we wanted to do is increase our office footprint because under the current zoning, under our 00:30:16
conditional use, we cannot change. 00:30:21
The footprint of our office, we can't put a second story on it. We can't make it bigger. We can't do anything with it other than 00:30:27
continue our use. 00:30:31
So given the fact that the. 00:30:36
That the emphasis of the city was to create the holiday half mile. 00:30:40
And create a buffer. 00:30:45
Residential and commercial uses with a complete restriction on retail. 00:30:48
We thought it was an opportunity for us. 00:30:54
Build a new office. 00:30:57
So we started the zoning process and probably. 00:30:59
Jumped the shark a little bit or jumped the gun and proposed a mixed-use. 00:31:03
Plan which went to the city, which went to the Planning Commission. 00:31:10
And understandably, the neighbors are concerned about high density setbacks. 00:31:18
In that zone. 00:31:26
I would remind everybody that this is at least a two step process. 00:31:28
First of all, we have. 00:31:32
Get an office zone. What we would like is an office zone so we can continue. 00:31:34
With our office use, we want to stay. We want to be neighbors. 00:31:39
We want to be part of. 00:31:44
But we need a bigger office. 00:31:46
And so that's our. 00:31:47
That's our goal and that's our plan and to offset some of the costs of redevelopment and the cost of construction. 00:31:51
We thought we would add some multi family uses. 00:31:57
In order to offset the cost. 00:32:03
And and make it. 00:32:05
Well, basically build into the value of the property because as we all know, holiday. 00:32:08
City property values. 00:32:13
Are very high and to put a little, tiny. 00:32:15
On a very valuable piece of property, it doesn't make economic. 00:32:19
So. 00:32:24
So given the fact that the city. 00:32:28
Past the General plan. 00:32:30
And the emphasis of the general plan was to create a professional office zone. 00:32:34
And I'll quote we want to. 00:32:40
Let's see, it says the professional office zone is defined as the purpose of a PO zone is to set standards for areas in 00:32:44
appropriate locations for professional and business offices, personal services, and other compatible uses such as commercial day 00:32:51
care facilities. Developments in the PO zone are intended to be compatible with the budding residential uses and to buffer 00:32:57
residential developments or zones for more intense land uses. 00:33:03
So given the fact that. 00:33:10
The management of the rezone requests is detailed in 1344010 and there are kind of three factors. 00:33:14
And they are, are you. It's as they occur within a general plan district supporting appropriate. 00:33:22
Either a professional office, mixed-use development or or other similar areas such as the Highland Dr. Small Area Master Plan 00:33:30
area. 00:33:34
We're simply asking to be allowed to continue our uses in office as a permitted use rather than a conditional use, which will 00:33:40
allow us some flexibility in redeveloping the property. 00:33:45
And upgrading and updating the buildings that are. 00:33:51
#2 It says it will result in an upgrade of the building and or site. 00:33:56
Our building and our site, each of those buildings is approaching 70 years old. 00:34:01
They. 00:34:06
They look outdated. They look like what they are as converted homes from the 1950s. 00:34:07
Our plan our. 00:34:13
Is to redevelop a. 00:34:15
New office building. 00:34:17
And an office, almost like an office park. 00:34:20
We are planning on putting a fountain in the middle between the two existing buildings. 00:34:23
Redeveloping, adding a bit, you know, adding some. 00:34:26
And making it a very nice looking. 00:34:30
Product which will integrate on the holiday half mile. 00:34:33
And the last one is, will it enhance property values? 00:34:38
We believe that a new aesthetically pleasing compatible development within the holiday half mile will certainly in the long run 00:34:42
increase. 00:34:46
The aesthetics of the neighborhood and increase the value. 00:34:51
I without repeating myself, you know, I think what Carrie said was. 00:34:58
The zone is. 00:35:04
By what the City Council did in 2018. 00:35:06
By wanting to have professional office, not wanting retail. 00:35:10
And you know the bottom line. 00:35:14
If we can't increase our office size, we'll have to look for an office someplace else. 00:35:18
And instead of developing under a PO zone. 00:35:23
And coming back here and then talking about conditional uses. 00:35:27
Then we're left with an RM zone and that changes the way we would develop the property and we don't want to do that. 00:35:33
Currently the room zone would allow us to build 3. 00:35:43
Units on 2061 and 4 units. 00:35:47
2051. 00:35:51
With 20 foot setbacks and 30 foot height. 00:35:52
So we believe we have that as a matter of right at this point. 00:35:56
And with the. 00:36:03
Any changes from the Office use for mixed-use would require a conditional use. 00:36:06
Which would then bring us back through the Planning Commission, bring us back through the City Council. 00:36:12
And require. 00:36:17
You know, cooperation with the. 00:36:19
To come up with something that would be compatible with the neigh. 00:36:21
Get some agreement with the neighbors and then present that plan. 00:36:25
Let's see if I have anything else in my notes. 00:36:30
I didn't follow my outline very well. 00:36:33
Sorry, just one. You had a 30 foot height, but I just want to make sure that you didn't misspeak there. I was thinking it was 35 00:36:36
feet that you were entitled to. Currently I think it's 35. 00:36:40
Is it 35 in the room and 40 carry? Sorry. 00:36:47
I believe. 00:36:50
35 in the room, right and 20 foot setbacks, right, I think, Is that right? 00:36:52
And then we have 30 foot setbacks. 00:36:58
And 40 feet, 35 feet. 00:37:01
40 feet high but additional I probably ought not have commented, but I just want to thank you. I don't want to appreciate 00:37:05
propagate probably. 00:37:08
Yeah, I mean, it's going to come up, but you know, the bottom line. 00:37:12
In the PO. 00:37:15
An office is going to be allowed. It will allow us to improve the building. It will allow us to provide you a nice looking set of 00:37:17
buildings. 00:37:21
Instead of putting lipstick on a pig. 00:37:25
And continuing our current use. 00:37:28
And you know the the conditional use with additional. 00:37:31
Apartments, and frankly, my partners in Miami would like to have an apartment to come to in the winter to ski and in the summer 00:37:37
when it's too hot. So that was kind of the impetus for wanting to have. 00:37:42
A couple of apartments and then to offset the cost of the development. 00:37:48
To have a couple of additional apartments. 00:37:51
To help us with the income stream and pay for the development was kind of our idea. 00:37:54
So I think at this point. 00:38:00
I'll sit down and let everybody tell you how it's going to ruin. 00:38:04
City in the neighborhood. 00:38:08
OK. Thanks. I'm glad you're going to stay. I think before we open up the public here, I'll make a couple of clarifying comments on 00:38:12
the public hearing, but. 00:38:15
Once the public hearing concludes, I don't think it's going to be very long before we get from the public hearing. 00:38:20
To the discussion on this for those that are waiting around to hear that so but before I open up the public hearing, we like to 00:38:27
limit limit it since we've got quite a few people to. 00:38:32
3 minutes for an individual in 5 minutes for a group if you're speaking on behalf of the group. 00:38:39
We will never stop anybody from making public comment at your right as a citizen. This is your house. But I will tell you it's not 00:38:49
helpful for us to hear. 00:38:53
10 people say the exact same thing. So if you want to speak for 10 people, have a standardized or haven't, we appreciate that it's 00:38:59
not required that that that will be up to you. 00:39:03
And with that, I'm going to open up the public hearing on this rezone application. 00:39:08
Before I invite anybody to the podium, I want to. 00:39:14
Read into the public record that we have received 8. 00:39:18
The the full council has received 8. 00:39:23
E-mail responses to this or comments to this. All of them are generally not in favor of this rezone application. The addresses are 00:39:26
on the e-mail, so I will not. I'll save the time not to read them. They are from David and Diane, Dean, Myron, and Suzanne Wills. 00:39:35
Jesse Black. 00:39:45
Jamie Covington, Kay. 00:39:47
John and Chris Erickson, Troy and Michelle Neerings and Debbie Hafer. 00:39:50
Do you know if I missed any Stephanie or is there anybody out there that sent an e-mail that's here that I may have missed you? 00:39:59
OK, so if you want to comment to us, you can, but I just want you to know that we all have these emails in our inboxes and either 00:40:06
have or will read them as part of the deliberation process. 00:40:12
And with that, this public hearing is open. I ask you to please come up to the podium, state your name and address. And again, if 00:40:19
you're speaking as an individual, keep it to 3 minutes or less. Or if you're speaking on behalf of a group, show us who the group 00:40:24
is and try to keep it to 5 minutes or less. It's open. 00:40:30
Good evening. Hi, I'm Jamie Covington. 00:40:40
Do you need my address? 00:40:43
1956 E Sycamore Lane. 00:40:45
Regarding the applicant, you guys all received my e-mail, so I'm sure you know how I feel about the. 00:40:49
Redevelopment. 00:40:54
Just to know a little bit about my background, My father is a developer. My brother is a developer. My brother, my other brother 00:40:57
is a real estate developer. 00:41:01
And a law attorney. And my other brother is in real estate for commercial development. 00:41:06
So I do know a little bit about the process of how this should go and I am concerned about how the city is handling it. First, the 00:41:11
purchase of the property of this land. 00:41:16
Should not be the responsibility. 00:41:22
To make it a wise investment for the applicant, I am sorry if he purchased the land thinking he had approval to change and rezone 00:41:25
it, but no person in real estate would recommend purchasing a piece of land that is not zoned for the use that you require. 00:41:34
So he purchased this land with a big risk. And yes, it's an expensive piece of land and that is unfortunate, but it is not our 00:41:43
duty as a city or as as city citizens to support his poor investment. 00:41:50
And that's that's the way it is. I feel bad. 00:41:59
Because that is money. It's somebody's money and it's somebody's livelihood, but that is not our responsibility to take care of 00:42:02
that. 00:42:06
Additionally, the applicant says that he has grand plans for this piece of land and that it's going to be beautiful. 00:42:11
Has a submitted plans. 00:42:19
Have you seen those plans? If those plans are submitted, why aren't they being made public? So that we can agree to the fact that, 00:42:21
yes, that will be beautiful for our neighborhood. We agree to that and the city then holds the applicant to those plans. Because 00:42:29
it's the same thing if I if I go to my house and I say I have grand plans for my house and it's going to be beautiful. 00:42:37
I could do none of that because all of a sudden, when it comes down to it, it's too expensive. That fountain that he plans for, it 00:42:46
might be too expensive. He's not going to suddenly put in that fountain. 00:42:51
And the setbacks that he's going to have as he plans it out and has architect and an engineer work it all out, he's going to 00:42:56
realize, Oh my gosh, it's so much more expensive than I thought. I'm going to have to build another unit or I'm going to have to 00:43:02
put in more parking. And all of a sudden a grand plan becomes something smaller and smaller and smaller because he hasn't done his 00:43:07
homework. 00:43:13
I haven't seen plans. 00:43:19
And he should have done his homework and say these are them. I've already done my due diligence. I've already have it here for 00:43:21
you. 00:43:24
This is going to be better for the community, but he just has grand plans and that is what we're resting on. Are we making the 00:43:28
decision on grand plans? 00:43:33
Last, I am very concerned about how the city is handling construction right now. 00:43:39
There are so many safety concerns lately. You have private vehicles and equipment resting and parked on city property, public 00:43:45
property, the streets. There are no safety guards, no traffic people redirecting. There are no 88 compliant people sidewalks to 00:43:55
redirect traffic. Children walk this path, including mine, twice daily to the junior high or to the library. 00:44:04
And that sidewalk needs to be clear. And the city is not holding the current construction at Holiday Hills, at the condos by 00:44:14
Macy's and the Apollo Square development to make those sidewalks accessible. 00:44:21
I don't know why this is acceptable and if there was. 00:44:28
An accident. By heavens, the city should be held responsible. 00:44:32
And I would hold them responsible. And that should be a concern. That should be a concern for the city attorney. That should be 00:44:36
something that you guys want to watch for. 00:44:41
I am concerned about our behavior for that. 00:44:46
Additionally, I think one of the last things that I brought up safety and I brought up all these other things about him not doing 00:44:49
his, the applicant not doing due diligence, the last thing we need to be concerned about. 00:44:55
It's the fact that, oh, sorry, let me get it written out. I have it written out. 00:45:03
There is no proof of need. 00:45:17
Basically, when you are considering rezoning, generally City Council members need to prove that there is a need for that and right 00:45:19
now commercial real estate office space. 00:45:25
Is at an all time low. 00:45:31
You can get off space for darn cheap because there are so many vacancies all around. Even within our city there are vacancies all 00:45:33
around, so the applicant cannot say. 00:45:38
I don't have anywhere else to. 00:45:44
We don't need to accommodate because there isn't a need right now. Not in this market, not for commercial, not for office space. 00:45:47
That's all. 00:45:54
Thank you. 00:45:55
Just come on up. 00:46:01
We're not going to call them in order, just when the podium MP's walk on up and give us your name and address. 00:46:03
Good evening. 00:46:14
My name is Jesse Black, address is 4740 Sycamore Dr. 00:46:15
That property is about 3 lots to the north of the corner in question. 00:46:22
What I wanted to point out tonight is if you are made aware of or participating in the Planning Commission meeting, the change in 00:46:28
energy between this meeting and that meeting. 00:46:32
I think what the difference is is a message that was carried away that we're getting a three story building on that lot whether we 00:46:37
like it or not. 00:46:42
Whether it's all residential or mixed-use and the applicant kind of reiterated that threat a little bit in his opening remarks 00:46:47
tonight. 00:46:51
And I think most of your constituents in this area were pretty disenheartened from that and feel disenfranchised from the this 00:46:55
whole planning process walking away with that feeling. I I know I'm not the only one that came away with that sense because I've 00:47:00
had discussion with other neighbors. 00:47:05
With respect to that feeling that we're getting a three story building one way or another and it doesn't really matter. 00:47:11
What I wanted to say is as a resident in that proximity, it's not that we're opposed to a business or mixed-use there. It's the 00:47:18
three story building is completely out of character for that corner. If you took the Apollo building condos and plopped it there, 00:47:24
it would look terrible in my opinion. If it were a two-story edifice similar to the dental office across the street, I think that 00:47:31
would fit in quite a bit better. We're worried about parking and traffic. 00:47:38
It's already constrained. That's a very busy corner already. 00:47:46
People whip around that corner coming down Murray Holiday Rd. There are times when it's really hard to make a left off of Sycamore 00:47:49
Dr. onto Murray Holiday Rd. 00:47:53
So, you know, adding more traffic, more parking is gonna be problematic. Maybe we go a full Sugar House and put traffic lights 00:47:58
every 10 feet and put one on Sycamore Dr. If we need to. At least they have sidewalks in Sugar House, right? Anyway, we're 00:48:04
concerned about parking on the street. So as this moves along, assuming it's one way or another, something's gonna be approved 00:48:11
there. We just asked the the Planning Commission to consider. 00:48:17
Traffic parking to make sure there's sufficient parking, whatever ends up there to keep. 00:48:23
Cars off the street. Thank you, Thank you. 00:48:30
Hi, Mike Stone, 2050 Delmont Drive. And we're concerned with this because we're there right back store neighbor. We've got a small 00:48:46
rendering here. Our house is. 00:48:52
One there and then a proposed building. 00:48:59
It would overtake our backyard. 00:49:02
We'd lose the ability, we think, to do a garden. 00:49:05
They'd look down on our family at the party. 00:49:08
We think property values for our home will go way down because this large building is in our backyard. We're concerned that 00:49:12
parking would come up on our street in front of our house. We'd always have. 00:49:18
Four to five cars in front of our house. 00:49:24
We're just concerned because it's going to affect us directly because we're right behind them. 00:49:27
And we think our property values will go way down and very concerned about it. So thank you. 00:49:33
Thank you. 00:49:40
Good evening. I'm Dave Parkinson. I live at 4714 Holly Lane. It's just around the corner from the property in question. 00:49:52
I'm here speaking on behalf of my wife and myself and also. 00:50:00
Dave and Diane Dean, who are the property owners immediately to the east of the subject property. 00:50:05
Unfortunately, they're in the Caribbean. 00:50:13
I know that doesn't generate a lot of sympathy. 00:50:17
Like that's better than here. 00:50:20
And also speaking on behalf of Dave and Eunice. 00:50:24
And Chris and Julie Burch, who live on Holly Lane and our neighbors of ours. 00:50:28
So this presentation also supplements a letter that we sent to the Planning Commission back on December 1st. 00:50:34
Of 2020. 00:50:44
So I've lived in holiday for over 50 years. 00:50:46
Holiday historically is a walkable. 00:50:50
With open sight lines. Please understand that my wife and I are not opposed. 00:50:53
To the development of the holiday corridor, we recognize that it. 00:50:59
Going to happen. We recognize that in many cases it's needed. 00:51:05
We believe that it can be done in a way that will actually enhance the value of the adjoining neighborhood properties. 00:51:13
But we are strongly opposed to the requested rezoning. 00:51:21
Change because the requested PO zone, while we like the concept of a PO zone in general. 00:51:25
As illustrated in this case by Mr. Helston's proposal, would permit a three story office building. 00:51:33
Backing onto single story residential properties. 00:51:41
That's something that does not exist anywhere else. 00:51:45
The holiday half mile, including the Apollo Square. 00:51:49
Which backs onto 2 story condominiums. 00:51:54
We request that the zoning change application be denied and that further change applications. 00:51:59
Be held until a small area master plan. 00:52:06
Is developed for the holiday half. 00:52:09
Our request is based on the. 00:52:12
1st As staff notes in the staff report, the City of Holiday General Plan states that development. 00:52:15
Of the holiday half mile quote should be guided by a small area master plan. 00:52:24
Second, the requested PO zone and this addresses point number. 00:52:31
Three of the three items that are applicable for PO zones. 00:52:36
Point #3 provides that preference for the zoning change should be given to those properties. 00:52:41
Quote which will enhance property values and contribute. 00:52:47
To the economic sustainability of the city, close quote. 00:52:51
The use of the plural values. 00:52:55
Indicates that the impact on the value of the adjacent properties is also to be taken into account. 00:52:58
A three story building looming over a newly remodeled single story residence will not enhance the value of the nearby residential 00:53:05
properties. 00:53:10
As mention. 00:53:15
The requested zoning would permit a three story building in this area and it's not consistent with the other development which has 00:53:16
taken place all up and down the holiday half mile corridor. We typically have single story or two-story buildings along the 00:53:23
corridor that includes the the the small mall area. 00:53:29
Up on the north side, next to the holiday village, that includes the other office buildings that have been developed on there, the 00:53:38
dental office. Everything else along there is. 00:53:42
One and two stories, with the exception of the. 00:53:48
Apollo Square development, which I believe is in a commercial area and it does back onto. 00:53:51
2. 00:53:59
Condominium. 00:54:01
Additionally, Olympus Junior High School and Olympus High School are great educational. 00:54:03
Cultural and recreational assets in our community. 00:54:09
And their lifeblood as teenage students, they'll divert for a second and say that was really awesome that you honored. 00:54:13
The young. 00:54:20
All right, that's 5 minutes and like 5 seconds a mile. 00:54:21
He was really cooking. That's awesome. 00:54:25
OK, so the lifeblood of those schools is teenage. 00:54:28
Families with junior high and high school students or aged children are typically found in single family residential neighborhoods 00:54:34
and not in one and two-bedroom apartments and condos. This isn't to disparage the one and two-bedroom apartments and condos, but 00:54:40
simply to point out. 00:54:46
That the neighborhood. 00:54:52
Adjoining the subject property needs to be protected for the sake. 00:54:55
Of the junior high and high schools. Preservation of the residential neighborhoods benefits the community as a whole. 00:55:00
5th Holiday Village and Holiday Hills. 00:55:08
Each has a small area master plan. 00:55:12
They are economic jewels for our community. They should be. 00:55:16
By a uniform and appropriately developed corridor. 00:55:21
And not by knotted together kite string. 00:55:25
Of piece meal developments along that corridor. 00:55:30
After all of the time and effort spent in developing. 00:55:34
The holiday village and I noticed out on the wall recognition for the quality of this development. 00:55:38
After all the time and effort spent in developing the holiday village all of the time and probably millions of dollars literally 00:55:45
in legal fees spent in coming to an acceptable. 00:55:52
Resolution. 00:55:59
The Holiday Hills. 00:56:01
Those two jewels deserve to be connected. 00:56:03
By a uniformly developed corridor that will both highlight them. 00:56:07
And enhance the value of the adjoining residential properties. 00:56:12
Please put in place a small area master plan. 00:56:19
And protect the holiday half. 00:56:23
And the adjoining neighborhoods. 00:56:30
As I know many of you. 00:56:33
I love. 00:56:35
I love this area. 00:56:37
I have grown up here. 00:56:40
And we can preserve it and protect it and yet let it develop in a way that will be consistent. 00:56:42
With the increasing pressures we have for homes and for commercial space and development. 00:56:50
We can do this in a way that will benefit all. 00:56:59
For the record, we're willing to work with Mr. Helston to see if an acceptable arrangement for his property can be reached. We've 00:57:02
already met with him on one occasion and had several discussions with him. 00:57:08
We're also willing to work with the city in the development of a small area master plans. We have talent in our neighborhood that 00:57:14
would be helpful in doing that. 00:57:18
Thank you. 00:57:23
Come on. 00:57:33
Suzanne Wills, Sycamore, 2015 Sycamore Lane. I just wondered if it would be possible to have the Planning Commission meeting. 00:57:41
All the responses and all of the comments that. 00:57:52
Here, with all of those seats filled. 00:57:56
Could those minutes be forwarded to all of you? 00:58:00
You have access to them. They have been. That's all public record. 00:58:03
OK, because I tried finding it today. 00:58:08
On the website, I couldn't find it. So I was concerned that you didn't hear any of it, but you did. We've got the staff report 00:58:11
from the Planning Commission meeting with all of the comments from. We can get that if 50 council members want it, we can get that 00:58:17
to them. That's all public record. OK, thanks. I just wanted to make sure. Thank you. 00:58:24
Hello, my name is Adeline Black. I live at 4740 Sycamore. Dr. Jesse Black, who spoke earlier, is my father. 00:58:45
I'm sorry if I don't sound as formal or knowledgeable as everyone else who has spoken here. 00:58:55
I'm one of the younger residents of the city. I'm 18 years old. I freshly started working earlier this year in about August. 00:59:01
And right around that corner where the building is being built is particularly where I walk by to go to work. 00:59:08
And I already have several areas where I cross by. 00:59:14
On my way to work and I'm already. 00:59:19
Struggling to try and get by cars without being hit and I'm worried that if this building goes up. 00:59:21
I'm just going to end up getting. 00:59:28
And I think I would have to completely change my route to work, which will make my track longer. 00:59:32
Just to avoid being killed. 00:59:39
And I get off my work shifts frequently around the same time that a lot of junior high kids that over there do, and I see them 00:59:41
coming home from school or heading down to around some of the nearby shops and stuff after school. 00:59:49
I'm scared though at some point if this goes up that. 00:59:58
Walk by and just see ambulances and police cars after someone gets hit and killed there. 01:00:02
And it might be me. It might be some poor kid. It might be some other poor. 01:00:08
But that's just my concern. That is all. Thank you. 01:00:13
Anybody else tonight? 01:00:25
OK. We're going to move on. So just as a reminder. 01:00:30
This public hearing remains open. 01:00:33
So if you want, if you or anyone of friends want to make written comment to the council, send them to Stephanie the Recorder, or 01:00:37
if you want, if. 01:00:41
Somebody that is not able to be here or would like to comment, The public hearing will remain open on February 1st. 01:00:47
If they want to address the Council at that point. 01:00:55
So anyway, thank you everybody for your comments and we're going to keep moving. 01:00:59
To. 01:01:04
Item number seven. So this is the vote on the previous public hearing. This is the subdivision amendment to title Title 13. Any 01:01:06
final comments before we take a motion? 01:01:11
Or. 01:01:19
Mr. Merritt of approval of Ordinance 2024-01 adopting amendments to Title 13 regarding subdivision processes. Second motion is 01:01:24
second from Council member Brewer will go to vote Council member Brewer, Council member Durham Council member Fotheringham, 01:01:31
Councilmember Quinn, Councilmember Gray and chair votes yes and. 01:01:37
That ordinance is adopted. Thank you Council. Item number 8 is just appointing a Council Member Gray to the Wasatch Front Waste 01:01:45
and Recycling Board. I would just need a motion for the advice and consent. 01:01:51
Mr. Chair. 01:01:57
Move approval. Thank you. I move approval of Resolution 2024-04, granting the advice and consent of the appointment of Emily Gray 01:02:03
to the Wasatch Front Waste and Recycling Board. 01:02:08
2nd, we have a motion in a second we'll give it to Council member. 01:02:14
Councilmember Brewer? Yes. Councilmember Durham? Yes. Councilmember Quinn? Councilmember Gray. 01:02:19
And chair vote chess. 01:02:27
And you're approved. And thank you for your willingness to serve. That's a great board. 01:02:29
Dan loved. 01:02:33
Item number 9 is City manager report. Nothing for me tonight. Nothing from the City Manager will go to Council reports. We'll 01:02:35
start with Councilmember Brewer. 01:02:39
I'll defer to somebody else to comment on the luncheon, but maybe I'm aware or Drew but intended that yesterday with the mayor and 01:02:44
I really have nothing else beyond that other than there's been much activity around this this issue for tonight, but that's 01:02:49
really. 01:02:53
Bulk of what's been going on in District 1, so OK. 01:02:58
Matt, I just wanted to mention, you might have seen the banner out front for the naloxone training on January 2420. Fourth, it's 01:03:02
part of the. 01:03:06
Work being done by the Healthy Happy Holiday Coalition. 01:03:11
And helps people understand how to use naloxone kits to prevent opium overdoses. 01:03:15
And is open to the public, so I'd encourage people to attend. I think it'll be really useful. 01:03:22
Thank you. 01:03:28
Two items first this afternoon, a working group of city staff and the mayor and I. 01:03:30
Discussed the Spring Lane Park progress with with a couple of different potential architectural landscape architect firms. 01:03:38
We came to a decision about how to move forward, but that project's in place where we'll we'll starting to be looking at. 01:03:48
Amenitizing spring lane as a as a public park and so that that's that's going to be a quick process but it'll involve over the 01:03:56
next several months. 01:04:00
Reaching out to the community and stakeholders and the nearby residents primarily. 01:04:07
And PM find an interesting process to watch that park property development next. Earlier this week, the Arts Council met and it 01:04:14
was our first meeting with our new. 01:04:20
Arts and Culture Manager Megan Aderman and went tremendously. 01:04:27
And there's a lot of excitement, a lot of energy and a lot of confidence in our new leader in that organization. 01:04:31
Thanks, Paul. 01:04:39
Thank you. Earlier this week I have been to both Driggs Elementary and Churchill Junior High Community Councils. 01:04:41
Both of them were. 01:04:49
Discussing the statements made by Governor Cox about removing cell phones Cell phones from. 01:04:51
From classrooms entirely. 01:05:00
Obviously the elementary school level doesn't have as much of an issue with cell phones as the older group. 01:05:03
It was interesting to hear the Churchill Junior High discussion. 01:05:12
Because different junior highs around Churchill. 01:05:16
Have different policies. 01:05:19
And so one thing that might be interesting to everyone is Churchill has arranged for Ben Horsley, who? 01:05:21
With Granite District to come on February. 01:05:29
To Churchill Junior High and talk with the Skyline, Wasatch and Churchill communities. 01:05:33
About this and about what I. 01:05:39
I don't know. 01:05:42
Anything as far as what? 01:05:44
The district if they have formulated a policy district wide or not, but. 01:05:47
That is certainly going to be a big. 01:05:53
Discussion in all of. 01:05:56
Education. 01:05:59
Communities. 01:06:01
The new policies will go into effect. 01:06:04
In this next fall. 01:06:08
I met with Cottonwood and Oakwood Community councils this week and Oakwood is incredibly grateful to Chief Hoyle and everybody 01:06:14
from the city. 01:06:19
And working out the traffic situation there, it's going considerably better than it was at the beginning of the year and they're 01:06:25
very, very grateful. So thank you for that. 01:06:29
The cell phone discussion also came up, not surprisingly. 01:06:36
The understanding of the meetings I was in is that Granite District is doing a study this year. 01:06:40
To determine, it sounds like different schools and different classrooms have different policies and then different levels of 01:06:46
enforcement. 01:06:49
And so, but the tenor of the meetings I was in is probably similar to the a lot of. 01:06:54
People were very supportive of a more unified. 01:06:59
Policy across the board that would be helpful for on a school level to help teachers and principals to kind of. 01:07:03
Have a unified. 01:07:10
Along with Drew and the Mayor and Ty, we were able to meet with. 01:07:13
The our state representatives at the legislature yesterday. 01:07:20
As I think most, most of you know that the main, one of the main issues that the legislature going on is, is the issue of 01:07:24
affordable housing, which we all know is. 01:07:29
Is a big problem in the state and especially tricky in the city of holiday, which this issue that we're discussing tonight. 01:07:33
Kind of touches on a little bit and I would just say that I was incredibly impressed and grateful for the leadership that we have 01:07:42
at the legislature that understands. 01:07:47
The unique position of Holiday and other E Bench communities. 01:07:52
In trying to address those issues while recognizing the limitations that we have in our city. 01:07:57
Yeah, that's what we did. Thank you. 01:08:04
I was gonna mention Oakwood too, so I I I had that same comment from the principal there. So I'll just echo what Emily said and 01:08:07
thank thank you, chief. He spent a lot of work on this. 01:08:13
With his officers July through September, trying to help the Elkwood community manage that and we appreciate that engagement. 01:08:19
Captain Brown, thank you very much. He met with our youth council yesterday at station 104. We had, gosh, I would say 20. 01:08:29
20 kids there. 01:08:38
Really good showing. Talk about naloxone and. 01:08:39
Overdose issues we had. 01:08:45
We had. 01:08:50
Happy healthy holiday study and. 01:08:51
We ranked very well in certain areas, but believe it or not, holiday per capita is one of the highest in terms of overdose 01:08:54
overdoses in the county. So we went through that. We did some. 01:09:00
We you did some CPR training with the kids, they they did a station tour. Anyway, it was it was a great event. So thank you to you 01:09:08
and and the crew at 1:04 for taking some time out for those kids. 01:09:13
Just as a reminder, the Historical Commission will have a presentation on the Moyle family and their impact in holiday over the 01:09:20
years on the 29th at 7:00 PM. I think it's here in Council chambers for those interested in holiday history. 01:09:27
Those have become pretty interesting little presentations, and so this month it'll focus on the moil the Moyle family. 01:09:34
And the Interfaith Council be meeting next Wednesday. I'll meet with them to just kind of download our comments from the 01:09:43
Interfaith service in November. 01:09:47
And that's Mr. Mayor. If I could ask your permission to extend the one more point I forgot to make, You may thank you. 01:09:54
For his stellar service to the UFA board, I'm sure Dan Captain Dan would agree. 01:10:40
That UFA is a better place because of the mayor's service. 01:10:44
Thanks, Thank. 01:10:48
Appreciate those comments. It was, you know, it's an honor to serve in this position and it's equally been an honor to serve on 01:10:50
that board. It's an incredible organization as an unified police. We're lucky to have them both. So thanks, Paul. I appreciate 01:10:54
that. 01:10:58
With that, we will just take a motion to recess to recess council into work session. 01:11:04
Mr. Move, we recessed council meeting and reconvene in a work meeting. 01:11:10
2nd we have a motion to 2nd Councilmember Quinn. All in favor, Say aye, aye. 01:11:17
Aye, aye. Any opposed? 01:11:23
I didn't think so. We are now in work session magically. 01:11:25
And the first item in the work session, as we discussed earlier, is this previous rezone public hearing. This is where we'll have 01:11:30
an open discussion about this particular application with the understanding that. 01:11:35
We'll continue to take input through through February 1st and have the vote at that point. Kerry is here and available for any 01:11:42
questions for staff as is. John. 01:11:47
As well as the applicant. 01:11:52
I don't know how we want to kick this off. I'll go ahead and start with a couple of questions. 01:11:57
Either John or Kerry. 01:12:05
One comment was raised by the young woman, Miss Black, about walkability. Is there anything about a zone change from current RM to 01:12:09
PO that would point toward? 01:12:16
A reduction in walkability in the neighborhood surrounding that building. 01:12:24
So. 01:12:33
The setbacks with the PO Zone bringing the building closer to Murray Holiday Rd. That bringing buildings closer to roadways 01:12:34
creates a pedestrian friendly environment. 01:12:40
Redevelopment also would. 01:12:47
The requirement of the property owner to install sidewalks so sidewalks would now wrap all the way onto Sycamore Lane where 01:12:49
there's not a sidewalk currently. 01:12:54
Would that be true? Whether? 01:12:59
Whichever. 01:13:01
Zone was in place. 01:13:03
Yeah, that's a requirement for any redevelopment. Property owners, if they're redeveloping or rebuilding a house, our. 01:13:05
City Engineer will look at the application and put their requirement for sidewalks on the application or not. This one, where it 01:13:13
is on a major corner, would require sidewalk installation. So redevelopment of any kind, whether it's under RM or PO on that spot, 01:13:20
would likely improve, arguably improve rockability as a result of having to put sidewalks in where there are none now. 01:13:28
Thank you. 01:13:36
Stay there, Carrie. 01:13:38
I have just a couple of questions. 01:13:41
Is there a difference or are we able to quantify a difference in intensity of use between the RM and PO zone? Is there any 01:13:45
difference in potential intensity of use? Do you know is intensity the amount of coverage or I think probably more what you're 01:13:53
getting through comment is the amount of traffic that would be generated through the use? 01:14:01
And. 01:14:10
Currently. 01:14:11
I think the major concern is the entrance of traffic from Sycamore, so it's on that corner. 01:14:14
Right now there's a driveway that exists on the property there. 01:14:20
There with traffic flow commonly on corner properties, anything that's commercial, you may see entrances on both sides of a 01:14:25
corner. 01:14:30
But that's not a function of the zone. That would be more a site plan issue, a negotiation of site plan where entrance and egress 01:14:35
would be. 01:14:39
Yeah, and that could be something that would be looked at if the applicant wanted to do mixed-use and at a conditional use. So the 01:14:44
Planning Commission could have some oversight over that. As is, if he were to redevelop as an RM, it would just be under the 01:14:51
review of the city engineer, and if that meets a standard distance back from the corner. 01:14:58
We're a driveway entrance. 01:15:06
Because there's not anything in the code that prevents the location of driveway entrances beyond standards. 01:15:09
From corners, so. 01:15:17
I'm new at this, So what you're saying is if it went through a rezone, it would then require? 01:15:20
An additional process through the Planning Commission for issues like. 01:15:28
Entrance and exits to the property to to deal with those kind of issues as far as. 01:15:33
Parking stalls and where they're exiting and entering the property, is that right? Or And then if it doesn't change and it's just 01:15:38
all within the room. 01:15:44
Zoning, then it's just an engineering decision. 01:15:51
Right, so. 01:15:55
The where it would have the additional oversight by the Planning Commission is with the conditional use permit. 01:15:58
So a conditional use in the PO zone is a mixed-use. So if the applicant wanted to just build an office building. 01:16:04
It would not require a conditional use permit. 01:16:13
Said if the applicant wanted to make some residential use with office use, that requires A conditional use permit. 01:16:16
So different scenarios here, if it stays as an RM zone can be redeveloped as a multi family. 01:16:24
7 unit right, 7 units across the. 01:16:35
Parcels would not require any conditional use or oversight by the Planning Commission. That's just rights that are associated with 01:16:39
the land it's already entitled now and if they locate the ingress and egress within that, that standard there would be as as it is 01:16:45
right now it would go on to could go in on the second or if they designed it that way as well as tomorrow Holiday Rd. correct? Yes 01:16:51
that would just require review by the city engineer. 01:16:57
Different scenario if it's rezoned. 01:17:05
You're looking at. 01:17:08
By right than being able to redevelop the property build. 01:17:10
A building with just office use that would not require conditional use or going to the Planning Commission. So same kind of by 01:17:14
right standards with the multifamily zone other city engineer might be taking consideration. 01:17:21
Its closeness to Murray Holiday and if it creates a conflict then then that's the the principle that you say as opposed to a 01:17:30
legislative decision. 01:17:35
Yep, just an engineering standard roadway to standard where driveway entrances can be located in relation to an intersection. So 01:17:42
if they design it to conform with that standard, they're entitled if they would be entitled to have an entrance and well ingress 01:17:47
and egress on the Sycamore and or Marie Holiday Road, right? Right. 01:17:53
OK, so. 01:17:59
Comments related to three stories and two stories. 01:18:02
35 feet? Does it allow three stories? 01:18:06
35 feet? I I'm not an architectural. I haven't reviewed what 3 feet? 01:18:10
Until the property owner could. If they're wanting to locate parking below, they could. 01:18:18
Dig lower and put parking below, and then do a building that's 35 feet from the natural grade. So there's still, if you're 01:18:25
counting out, parking as. 01:18:30
A level. It would still be the standard. You're either 35 feet at the room zone. 01:18:36
40 feet. 01:18:42
For the PEO Zone 40, I believe that in a commercial building when you're adding in more substantial HVAC systems, that's where 01:18:44
that additional 40 foot height for the professional office zone was considered. 01:18:51
I don't know if that entails then three stories or if it limits it to two stories. 01:18:59
Understanding with the additional 5 feet is primarily for first floor accommodation generally. 01:19:04
For the lobby floors allows them to be a little higher. It's not necessarily at an additional floor because we're not. 01:19:12
Oz providing housing for. 01:19:19
It's a political incorrect, say Munchkins. They're fictional characters. 01:19:22
And commercial developments have higher floors, but then there's the primary physical differences, footprint differences between 01:19:27
RM and Bo are initial 5 feet for that first floor accommodation, but then also that's offset potentially that's your point of view 01:19:34
with additional offset. 01:19:41
From a residential. 01:19:48
And then what's the difference in offset between RM and PO? 01:19:51
I'm sorry, the set back is what I'm looking for. It set back, so set back between residential zones, 20 feet for the RM zone. 01:19:55
And 30 feet for the forced to set back an additional 10 feet to buffer. 01:20:05
So if that's an exchange, it's five feet up for a higher first floor with. 01:20:12
Offset if you want to make those counter arguments with an additional 10 feet of set back requirement, yeah. 01:20:18
Yeah, to me, I mean. 01:20:26
I'll, I'll just speak my mind and then you guys can, you know, tell me if I'm out to lunch. 01:20:28
You know, regarding comments about seeing building designs and elevations and all that, that is not a right of citizens to see 01:20:35
that in my mind, unless we want to do a development agreement. 01:20:40
When you go build a house in a neighborhood and you bring in a permit to build your house. 01:20:46
You don't go around and show that your elevations and your plans to your neighbors to get their thumbs up. So that to me, that to 01:20:51
me is a non issue. 01:20:55
To me, what we're the only thing we're talking about is whether the PO zone. 01:21:00
The PO Zone is a proper application for this particular site. That's what that's what I'm considering because here's the in my 01:21:07
mind. 01:21:12
This is an RM zone. 01:21:18
The owner has a entitled property right under RM to do whatever is entitled on that site, so. 01:21:20
For instance, if these folks decide they don't want to build on that, they want to sell the property and they sell the property. 01:21:29
Whoever buys that property can come into the city with an RM application and as long as it meets. 01:21:37
The the standard set in the room zone, they are going to get a permit without public input. Is that correct? Yes. OK, so they have 01:21:43
an entitled property right under RM. 01:21:49
Period. So they're asking for a PO rezone application because they say they want to rebuild their office. 01:21:56
To me. 01:22:06
If you give them the PO rezone, they can come in with an application. 01:22:09
With whatever they want that aligns with the requirements of that zone. So and they're going to have to go through whatever 01:22:16
planning they have to go through in terms of their setbacks and their heights. And if there's there's probably no architectural 01:22:21
standards in that zone, correct. Right. So it's not even, you know, how does your building look and it's whatever they're entitled 01:22:26
to build there. 01:22:32
Whether they redevelop under RM or PO, Paul, as you stated, they're going to be required to wrap the sidewalks around and create 01:22:39
more pedestrian accessibility, so. 01:22:44
I don't know to me it might be a difficult issue, but it's pretty simple. It's it's. 01:22:50
It seems like it's being hung up on this five foot difference between a 35 foot height entitlement and a 45 and a 40 foot height 01:22:56
requirement and when the PO was created. 01:23:02
It was pushing the building away from residences and creating a bigger set back to try to protect residents. It was a little bit 01:23:08
more so. 01:23:12
I mean, that to me is the only issue if 40 feet is too high in a PO zone, I guess we can have a separate conversation about that, 01:23:17
but. 01:23:21
That's all I'm really thinking about right now. Is the PO zone a proper? 01:23:26
Application for that particular piece of property. 01:23:31
And if not, why? 01:23:36
And that's kind of the point of my detailed questions, but I feel the same way. Just wanted to verify what the physical 01:23:37
differences are between the two zones, what's already in place. And I wanted to verify that the changes in terms of physical 01:23:44
footprint and requirements are fairly minimal and in one case advantageous to the residents in terms of extending the set back 01:23:50
under PO. 01:23:57
Because again, I mean they're they're, they're the comments that they can do whatever they want with. 01:24:05
In the room zone versus the PO, well, I mean, there are some minor differences, but you know the the applicant is right and that 01:24:09
he's already entitled to RM. It's already RM and it can already be redeveloped. 01:24:15
Along those entitled rights. 01:24:22
And we'd have to to to to to prevent that the city would have to go through a taking which would create all kinds of legal 01:24:24
liability for the city and and also even if we were to create and I and I would encourage us to to to reinvestigate or or queue up 01:24:31
the idea of the small area master plan because it had been considered before and it kind of gotten. 01:24:39
Thrown in the in the in the ice bucket for a while because of some conflict with some previous council members. But it it's in the 01:24:48
general plan, it's referenced in the general plan, so it should be considered again. But even if we do the small area master plan. 01:24:55
The current entitlements would be grandfathered. 01:25:02
Otherwise it constitutes a taking. Am I right? 01:25:04
Jamie. 01:25:08
Yeah. So even if we put that in place, you can't impose. 01:25:10
New restrictive zoning requirements on an existing on existing entitlements without paying a huge price. 01:25:17
And so I'm in the same boat as you, Mr. Mayor, but that the point of my detailed questions was to try to point out where the 01:25:25
actual differences between the two zones are, and they're fairly minor. And there are some. 01:25:32
Trade-offs one of. 01:25:40
Pretty +1 I think for the residents. 01:25:43
Which is the additional set back. 01:25:45
Can can I ask a question about the small area master plan? 01:25:48
Is there? 01:25:52
Any obligation to create it? Or is it advisable to create it before we make this decision or? 01:25:54
Are those sort of separate issues that can be approached? 01:26:01
On separate tracks, yeah, it is in the general plan. The general plans, not a binding document. 01:26:05
It's advisory. 01:26:13
We as. 01:26:14
Staff and council, elected officials, we follow the general plan, but it's not binding. The language in the general plan is also 01:26:16
should. It's not a shell, so there's there's not an obligation. 01:26:22
Prevent an application or hold an application. 01:26:30
In order to develop a master plan first, many components of a master plan likely could be worked with the input of the property 01:26:33
owner. They are likely amenable to put some of those elements in in their plan as we work through this process. 01:26:40
Can I just ask, But it sounds like even if we did that small area master plan. 01:26:48
All of the the current rights under the RM would be grandfathered. 01:26:53
Anyway, so really, we're talking about 5 feet up and 10 feet. 01:26:57
Forward and as long as it's redeveloped, the sidewalk is that, is that my understanding that physically, yeah. But and then 01:27:03
there's the use changes. 01:27:06
I think another point on that too is that when the PO Zone was developed, we looked at RM properties that were being used as 01:27:10
offices. All of those properties that are right there in that chunk on Murray Holiday Blvd. between the village and Royal Holiday 01:27:18
Hills were all looked at with the development of a PO Zone, knowing that those could be redeveloped with these standards. 01:27:25
Bringing the building 10 feet back from the from the sidewalk creates a pedestrian friendly. 01:27:33
Environment, which is a main goal of that holiday half mile. 01:27:41
And the creation of the PO zone, in my view at least the current application seems to fit the purpose. 01:27:45
For which the PO zone was created in the first place. 01:27:53
Can you explain why? Can you explain how it is that you know these have been office? Well I guess they were homes maybe built in 01:27:59
the 50 S or whatever. At what point did they become office and why were they put into an RM zone rather than some type of a zone 01:28:05
that? 01:28:10
That for which that was an acceptable use, sure. So the county zoning for room. 01:28:17
Included office uses and multi family uses as both being permitted under county so when in the same zone. So when the city 01:28:23
incorporated we retained that zoning from the county and allowed those. 01:28:31
To uses in the room zone. 01:28:38
As I think there was some conflict between office uses or wanting to expand office uses for like medical offices or dental offices 01:28:42
which were not allowed in the overview of permitted uses in that room zone. So staff was directed to study what creating a new 01:28:51
office specific zone would look like and taking all of those office uses out of the room zone and putting them into the PO zone. 01:29:01
A little footnote to her answer because it was really good and on point. I can't speak to specific parcel by parcel, but. 01:29:12
You had county zoning that pre dated the cities incorporation and then the city zoning. 01:29:20
You do have some non conforming uses, and state law recognizes A nonconforming use by right. So if you're using a property and 01:29:26
then it's zoned as something different, you can continue in the use that existed before that zone. And the rationale for not 01:29:33
zoning it to the new use that well, based on its current use to a new zone that's created that conforms with that use. The 01:29:40
rationale for not rezoning at that point is why. 01:29:46
Well, it would be whatever the policy priorities were of. 01:29:55
City at the time, so some cities, and I don't know if this is the case in holiday with these properties, but some cities will. 01:30:00
Recognize a non conforming use, allow it to continue, but when the property redevelops they wanted to be something different. 01:30:08
And so they will zone it as what they want that used to be in the future. 01:30:15
And it's the council's policy priorities that will govern that choice. 01:30:21
And then the non conforming use can remain as long as the property is not physically altered. 01:30:26
And you don't have new structures, but if it is redeveloped, then it would have to be redeveloped according to the zoning of the 01:30:32
time it's redeveloped. 01:30:35
And we generally don't proactively. 01:30:39
God, someone changes. They're brought to us, so you will find from time to time. 01:30:42
Properties that exist and are used a certain way, but if you look at the zoning. 01:30:46
It doesn't match exactly what's happening on the property. So at the time the Council's or you know, those that were planning 01:30:51
essentially decided that multifamily would be the most appropriate long term use for this space. Is that correct? 01:30:58
That's fair, yes. Where? That's how it's currently zoned that. 01:31:06
Would have been the priority of the Council at that time. 01:31:10
But that would have. 01:31:13
PO at that time, correct if it was a county zoning that was carried forward. 01:31:16
That the fact that it was on that way at one point in time doesn't change. 01:31:21
Your right as a council to consider what you feel is appropriate at this time, right? So in effect the PO zone. 01:31:26
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not created for this purpose to take a non conforming? 01:31:34
Use like a like an office so that they could rebuild their read, you know, rebuild their structure for the same use so that they 01:31:40
could then rezone to have it be appropriate pulled out from that, from what were the two different uses applied to the the 01:31:47
pre-existing zone, right. And then be zoned correctly. Is that right? Yes. And that's addressed in the purpose of the PO zones. 01:31:53
That is the purpose of the PO zone, Yeah. 01:31:59
OK. Thank you. One other question back on this question of the small area master plan, I appreciate Mr. Parkinson's comments on on 01:32:08
this and. 01:32:12
Let me ask, it's interesting the way you know and they are two jewels that we have really as far as the city is concerned with the 01:32:18
village in holiday hills. 01:32:22
And that and that corridor is significant. 01:32:26
And I don't like the idea of it not being well planned, right? 01:32:31
And it's I, it's odd. I would say how it is right now where east of I'd have to pull up my map. It's just inconsistent between 01:32:35
Olympus Junior and I believe it's it's Hugo that's is that Hugo. 01:32:42
Where there's some, there's some residential, I guess. 01:32:51
When, how and when and where would this be addressed to have it be maybe better planned is that as we redo our master, you know as 01:32:56
we revise our master plan, that's the time to do that and or when would a small area master plan have been contemplated if we had 01:33:01
done that right, the council can decide if a small area master plan should be developed for that area and can direct staff to do 01:33:07
so. 01:33:13
As is. 01:33:20
Just. 01:33:23
Redevelopment potentials that are there and it's any of those properties that are RM could be rezoned as PO that was likely a 01:33:25
consideration. Another place where you could incorporate some of those standards that you might want in the holiday half mile is 01:33:31
in the general plan which we are. 01:33:36
In the process where we'll be getting the process of. 01:33:44
We're doing much of our general plan in the next year or two. 01:33:47
So the holiday half mile can be addressed more directly or fully in the general plan at that point? 01:33:51
But you know, even if you do a small area master plan, which we did, we did the Highland Dr. Master plan and it doesn't. 01:33:58
Eliminate these conflicts because. 01:34:03
People still have grandfathered property rights, correct? So I'm not saying. 01:34:06
We could do that. 01:34:11
And we have debated this area. We eliminated retail in that stretch. We had this debate. We eliminated retail along that stretch, 01:34:14
the holiday half mile for that very reason with the same argument is. 01:34:20
Is and and there was. 01:34:26
Heated argument about. 01:34:29
About whether we should allow retail along that stretch and the council decided no, because we wanted to make sure retail was 01:34:32
focused in the two nodes that were brought up, Holiday Village and now Holiday Hills. So we didn't think retail was appropriate 01:34:37
there. So this isn't the first time we've debated that. 01:34:43
Stretch of that holiday half mile. 01:34:49
But getting back to, you know, the application itself. 01:34:54
Is I'm not decided on this and probably gone on, but maybe a little bit too long, but I think this is really important because 01:34:57
it's obviously a kind of contentious application, but I'm going to have to spend a little bit more time on the staff report. 01:35:06
Where it talks specifically about the Planning Commission. 01:35:15
And they review their neutral recommendation and it references 2 reasons why the application basically went to neutral. 01:35:20
One is because and. 01:35:28
Specifically that the rezone would not one result in an upgrade to the building and or site, which I don't really understand. If 01:35:31
they're going to rebuild, it seems to me that would upgrade the site. 01:35:38
Or two, enhance property values or contribute to the economic sustainability of the city. 01:35:44
So I'm going to try to understand why. 01:35:51
Those two findings came out what the justification was behind that? And because that's the only reason I could see, probably #2, 01:35:56
that's the only reason I could ever come up with to deny the application, is the justification under that. 01:36:03
Piece what is meant by upgrade? What does that term mean in the context of the master plan? 01:36:11
She upgraded a building or site. 01:36:18
Just redevelopment in general, improvements. 01:36:22
It's likely that the Planning Commission didn't see because we're just looking at an application for a rezone. 01:36:26
What that redevelopment looks like, so the applicant is stating an intent to redevelop. That is their desire to. 01:36:34
Use that property for redevelopment. But the Planning Commission didn't see something physical or a building plan or anything like 01:36:44
that. I think that's where that basis came from, is that they didn't have sufficient evidence to show that. 01:36:51
Redevelopment would. 01:37:00
Sorry, go ahead. 01:37:03
Just to clarify, I know that one of our speakers. 01:37:06
Did talk about the fact that there are no plans yet. 01:37:11
At what point? 01:37:15
Would the plans be required and would there be another Planning Commission? 01:37:17
Meeting when those plans? 01:37:23
He has part of the approval process for those plans, right? And that that's part of that the by rights associated with land and 01:37:28
the zone. So same discussion that we had with an RM Zone if the applicant could apply for a building permit and build to the 01:37:34
standards of the RM Zone. 01:37:40
Without having any sort of public input, having to present any plans to the public. Same thing for anybody building a house or any 01:37:46
development on any property. The only time that they would. 01:37:53
Have that additional public oversight in a public hearing is with a conditional use. So if they were to have a rezoned PO approved 01:38:00
and want to do a mixed-use development. 01:38:06
If they were to submit an application for redevelopment either under RM or PO, just a basic building permit, anybody can request 01:38:12
those records through a grammar request. 01:38:18
So if they did you, if they did do office space with multifamily housing after they got the PO development, that would be 01:38:24
conditional use and would require another public hearing, yes. 01:38:30
And an opportunity for staff to. 01:38:37
Take into account the neighboring, the the wishes of the of the neighbors to to reduce the impact on the neighbors that that 01:38:41
conditional use might bring, right? Right. Conditional uses are essentially A permitted use with additional conditions that are 01:38:48
put onto a property to mitigate impacts. So if a neighbor says, oh, there might be some traffic impacts, then the Planning 01:38:56
Commission would come up with a condition. 01:39:04
To offset that impact from traffic. 01:39:12
This whole case is interesting to me. It makes me think of this. The saying of you better be careful you asked for because you 01:39:15
might get it right if you put yourself in the shoes of all those that have emailed us and the concerns of the residents that are 01:39:21
around. They better be careful what they ask for because they might get it if it if it were to stay. And if we were to deny 01:39:26
they'll have 35 foot, they could have 35 foot buildings 20 feet from their backyard. 01:39:32
Undesirable shore for that, for that individual. And that's sad. I had this. Something similar happened to me. I've got a 01:39:39
neighbor. He's a wonderful person. I love him. But he built a second story on what was a single story before. I think it's about 01:39:44
35 feet high. I don't know what the highest rate is for a single family residence, but it's high. It serves no functional use, 01:39:49
It's all just trusses. And it blocks my view of my Olympus too. 01:39:54
That's life. 01:40:00
And and so it's important to note that that if if we did deny this rezone for whatever reason those residents and and they the 01:40:03
residents got their way, you could say that might not be very desirable still for them if it does. 01:40:10
If we did approve the PO zone. 01:40:19
They same same thing was the difference of 10 feet and that and it's important that the applicant also recognize that there is no, 01:40:23
absolutely no guarantee of any conditional use being permitted and he may be stuck with offices and nothing else. 01:40:30
And so that's important for them to recognize as well, right? 01:40:37
And so perhaps what might you know, we we also want harmony in the city, right? And we want and we want people to to be happy with 01:40:42
where they are. Perhaps what might be the best answer in this situation is this if, if, if the. 01:40:50
Applicant is serious about wanting this condition. We can't require that he then go in and seek a conditional use. But what might 01:40:59
be the best outcome would be for him to seek a conditional use so that the the residents concerns could be met and and addressed 01:41:05
by the Planning Commission when they when they grant that conditional use correct. 01:41:10
Is it common or unusual when seeking A rezone like this to have plans that can? 01:41:17
Be reviewed and evaluated to determine whether they meet these criteria in the master plan. 01:41:25
For the PO zone, it's more unique where it was created with. 01:41:31
Specifically knowing that applicants may want to redevelop, there's been several properties that have either redeveloped or kind 01:41:36
of remodeled their buildings to incorporate some additional office spaces. 01:41:43
Some applicants have decided to keep the room zone because they want to redevelop as a multifamily property, so it gives the 01:41:51
applicant various options. However they would like to use their land if they want to continue it as an office use. 01:41:59
The PO zone is most appropriate. 01:42:07
But they do have to have go through that rezone process. 01:42:10
But considering redevelopment, I think one of the points in the PO zone is that a priority is given to applicants who do want to 01:42:16
redevelop their property. 01:42:21
So it's kind of an incentive almost for land owners who want to continue the use of their property to create more office uses or 01:42:27
expand their office use to redevelop. 01:42:33
But I guess my question is, there have been some concerns raised about the fact that there isn't really a plan. 01:42:40
And the master plan seems to contemplate that we're able to see whether it's increasing property values and if it's consistent 01:42:45
with the neighborhood and whether it's an upgrade to the building and so at this. But is it normal at this stage to not have a 01:42:51
more clearview of what the plan is? 01:42:56
I would say yes, because there's a lot of details that could still change. We don't want to present necessarily hard and stone. 01:43:03
Development plans. 01:43:10
That the applicant or the public perceives as this is what's going to be built because there's not a set application that that is 01:43:12
what's going to be built. 01:43:16
When you're doing the conditional use permit at that stage, then you would have a more concrete plan. 01:43:21
I don't want to open a can of worms. 01:43:28
Great ways. Yeah. Great way to lead in. 01:43:31
Has it been contemplated to seek a conditional permit use in the existing zoning for office? 01:43:35
And along with the multifamily. 01:43:41
So in the room zone, conditional use for a mixed-use development is not allowed. OK great. So the other option would be to go back 01:43:43
and do a text amendment to make a mixed-use. 01:43:49
In the. 01:43:56
Which then almost puts. 01:43:58
To what it was yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:44:00
I think, I think you laid it out pretty well. I was trying to. 01:44:03
Say the same thing you said, but not nearly as eloquently. I mean, but it's pretty simple. 01:44:09
If the properties redevelop, the pedestrian issue is resolved either way, right? Regardless whether it's RM or PO. 01:44:15
If it is rezoned, PO and the applicant does indeed. 01:44:25
Want to put residential onto that site? Make it a mixed-use development. There are going to be conditions placed on that which is 01:44:29
a risk the developer is going to have to take. 01:44:35
Correct. Because then there's going to be neighborhood input, and that's certainly going to be. 01:44:40
Blended into those conditions, I would assume. 01:44:46
So, and which is to your point, Be careful what you ask for because. 01:44:50
If that if that rezone is not approved, the property owner had and I want residents to understand this, the property owner has an 01:44:55
entitled property right under RM. 01:44:59
And if for instance, they decide that they either want to redevelop the site themselves and say forget it, I'm done with the PO, 01:45:05
I'll just develop under. 01:45:10
They can bring in a application. 01:45:16
And as long as it checks the boxes, they will get a building permit at 35 feet if that's just how high they decide to go, and 20 01:45:20
feet. 01:45:25
To the residences, to the. 01:45:30
Right. 01:45:33
And or if they sell the property, that's the property right, that's going to go with it. So that's what I think the council is 01:45:34
wrestling with right now and I don't know which way I'm at at this point. I need to spend a little bit more time on those two 01:45:40
points that came out of the Planning Commission that I'm not quite clear on, but that's. 01:45:45
Kind of sums up where I'm at on it at this point. 01:45:52
Anything else? Any other questions for me? 01:45:58
Any further applicant while he's still here? 01:46:02
Sorry to grill you like that, Carrie. 01:46:09
Yeah. 01:46:12
The public, the public hearing is still open. I would prefer that we not start bringing people back up. If you've got comment, 01:46:15
maybe make it via e-mail or call Ty or come back on February 1st because the public hearing is still open. 01:46:21
We are still. 01:46:29
For all the public comment but we're going to move on to the next item on the agenda at this point. One thing on that Mayor if 01:46:30
ideally an e-mail that we can distribute to the whole council. It's just nice so that you know if I have one-on-one interactions 01:46:36
with people it's not productive and not and not not beneficial. I don't believe it's it's best that it be something that could 01:46:41
that I can easily share with the whole council so we can all be on the same page. I'm not the only person that that votes on this 01:46:47
you know so. 01:46:52
Anyway, thank you. We know this is a we know this is an emotional issue. We appreciate everybody's civility. 01:46:59
Thanks so much. 01:47:05
All right. We're moving on to item B on the work agenda. And I believe this is Anne Francis. 01:47:08
On moderate income housing. 01:47:16
Don't be offended, Anne, that nobody wants to stay and listen to your moderate income policy. 01:47:22
Will stay. 01:47:28
We're here for you. 01:47:30
What we brought to you today was the moderate income housing strategies and I'm looking for direction. I know I brought it to you 01:47:34
last July when we were reporting to the state for our annual reporting and we talked about the challenges associated with that 01:47:40
reporting. 01:47:45
And. 01:47:53
Now the reporting is due again in August 1st and we want to prepare ourselves for that. So we were looking at direction from 01:47:53
council to start evaluating and researching some of the strategies that were applicable towards a holiday. And in front of you 01:48:00
you'll have a chart I think. 01:48:06
That I put together that outlines the statute descriptions and the applicability to holiday. 01:48:15
Currently we have 6 strategies in our plan Chapter 5 plan. 01:48:26
And. 01:48:32
They are posted here on selected and current plans, so some of them. 01:48:34
That I think apply our strategy. 01:48:39
K&X the other items you'd see some of the. 01:48:44
Issues associated with those strategies, so if you had a chance to review them. 01:48:51
I'd like to get some kind of feedback from you on how to move forward. 01:48:58
Which ones to that you think we should start evaluating and researching so that we can get it to Public or Planning Commission? 01:49:03
And then get it back to you in time to do some reporting for this fiscal year. 01:49:12
So this. 01:49:19
So we did this in July and had to have it end. 01:49:21
Didn't we have to have it by December or was it October? 01:49:25
So is it a calendar year requirement? When are we, we're required to resubmit every year, right? Resubmit a report, a report, 01:49:30
right. Is that what is that what we're doing here is deciding what we want to add to that report? 01:49:36
What we want to report? 01:49:42
And when's that due? 01:49:45
We can turn that in anytime, but do we have a time requirement like does it have to be by December of 2024? We have to have it. 01:49:47
I'm just wondering if we're under a timeline. 01:49:52
On this or am I thinking of the wrong thing? 01:49:59
I think that the initial report had a timeline and that was already submitted. So we already have a plan. 01:50:01
That's been approved, but we can make revisions to that plan, OK. And then we report annually correct and report annually to on 01:50:09
those on the plan. But the initial report needed to be submitted before December and that was the biggie and that was initially 01:50:16
that was done already. So we've already done. 01:50:22
We have an approved plan already. So we came up with the requirements that you I'm just trying to figure out like get a baseline 01:50:29
here, but so we had to come up with what three or four different items under was it SP34? 01:50:37
Originally and now the question is, are there other things that we want to add or do we have to? 01:50:46
Right now it's it's challenging with what we currently have. We can't report on it any longer on the ones that we reported last 01:50:55
year because we don't have measurements and tasks associated anymore from what we already reported on. 01:51:02
So now we have to come up with other items to report on and that's where we're trying to figure out. 01:51:12
There's nothing there that we really can report on right now. 01:51:17
So let me make sure I really understand what's what you're implying. 01:51:21
Because we've got these, as you say 6 items currently in the plan, correct? And those were that was like the minimum we had to 01:51:26
come up with at least six and we chose the six. 01:51:31
And. 01:51:37
Another year has passed. We have to have more than six. We don't have to it just. 01:51:39
It'll help us report and stay in compliance. Well, so, So what is getting us out of compliance and inability to measure on the 01:51:44
ones we've selected? Correct. There's not enough tasks that are in there. If you look at the current plan, there aren't tasks 01:51:52
associated with those action items and there are no deadline or no. 01:51:59
They're the ones we selected of someone else's options, so isn't that their problem, that they came up with options that were not 01:52:08
measurable? 01:52:12
I just hate to take on more than we're we're having to because I think I'm concerned about is, I don't want to. 01:52:17
Do things where we won't get credit because these are state mandates and and we have I share the objective to to assist the 01:52:24
affordable housing thing but. 01:52:30
That's still separate from the state mandate To do so, you know where we darn will need to get credit for. 01:52:37
You know whatever we do to go against the mandate. So I'm so I'm still a little. 01:52:44
Where you're suggesting we should pick additional items that. 01:52:50
Have more measurable parameters to them so that we can appear to be waving our hands more quickly and impressively pretty much. 01:52:54
The current plan, I'm sorry. 01:53:05
I was just going to you pointed out three BK and X. Does that mean we have to come up with three additional is that the minimum? 01:53:08
No, there's no minimum associated with it. Those are the ones that I just thought that. 01:53:16
We can get those low hanging fruit type of items that we can add to the plan and report on. 01:53:21
Now the states wants to know that are you going to be reporting on these on a biannual, quarterly, annual basis, so that every 01:53:28
year we actually can report on something. Does that mean we can swap? 01:53:34
Do we have to add 3 or can we swap 3? 01:53:41
You can swap 3, but we've already completed some of those, so we don't want to take them out. We want to show progress. Really 01:53:45
trying to accomplish what just seems to be reporting to. 01:53:50
Is this just a? 01:53:58
You know incremental creep where we're just going to be driven to do all of these things overtime, is that the likely? 01:54:00
Play here. 01:54:07
Jamie. 01:54:09
That's a good way to put it to me. The difficulty most cities have had with this is. 01:54:12
Those that have been good actors with respect to moderate income housing in the past. 01:54:20
Get no credit for. 01:54:26
And so Holiday is a good example of that because it's a city that has within the last few years approved significant. 01:54:28
Multi family housing projects. 01:54:37
And the best way to drive toward affordability is to increase the housing stock. 01:54:40
But you get no credit for. 01:54:45
Being in a good place to begin with. 01:54:47
And all you have to do is kind of turn the screws every year of we're going to do a little bit more, we're going to do a little 01:54:49
bit more and that tends to be the requirement. 01:54:54
Right. Now you get to pick the areas where you want to do a little bit more, but then it's submitted and it's approved and it's a 01:54:59
little bit. 01:55:02
Difficult to tell what is the criteria exactly they'll be considering lots of cities have had their. 01:55:06
Initial plans kick back and told that it doesn't comply either because. 01:55:12
While it's good, they've already done it. 01:55:18
Or they don't view it as being quite far enough. 01:55:21
But I think what you're going to find is that every year you have to find. 01:55:25
More in some other way, either to do more within an existing strategy or implement a new strategy that you add to the list. It's a 01:55:29
ratcheting process. So can I just add one thing? I mean all of what we're talking about is pre legislative session this year. 01:55:38
There could be changes. We anticipate there will be changes. This could look a lot different on March whatever it is 9th. 01:55:47
Yeah. And are you saying that there aren't tasks or things to report on because? 01:55:56
The six things that we selected in the. 01:56:02
Or at least some of them have been accomplished. And so we need to find something else that we can now accomplish. Is that the 01:56:05
idea? Correct. And there's a few things that you know are in the pipeline people are discussing. 01:56:10
But we can't claim it. We can't report on it because it's not in the plan. We allowed for 80 years citywide, for example, right. 01:56:16
What is there to measure? It's just done. Is that is that kind of what we're saying exactly, Yeah. Yeah. Unless, unless you come 01:56:21
up with other steps that you want to take. 01:56:27
To further either reduce the hurdles. 01:56:33
We're getting an Adu. 01:56:36
In someones backyard or in their? 01:56:38
That was something where we can keep on the list and keep reporting on every single year. 01:56:42
But if we're done, we feel it is generally legislatively as a policy we're done and we're comfortable with where we are with ADUS. 01:56:47
You won't be able to report on it. We might want to select something else. 01:56:54
Now were these ones? 01:56:58
That you were proposing. Are they because you feel like we? 01:57:01
They're low hanging fruit as. 01:57:05
Fairly easy. 01:57:08
Come in compliance because we're either already starting that process or it wouldn't be difficult. Is that why you suggested the 01:57:10
one? Yeah, that's why it's OK. So those are. 01:57:13
They're valuable to the cities residents and lowers affordability, cost for people for their housing. 01:57:18
Is that BK and X? 01:57:25
Yeah. 01:57:28
You've gone through this list for. 01:57:30
Understanding. 01:57:33
The unique challenges in holiday and how difficult this is to even. 01:57:35
Do anything that's going to impact the issue? 01:57:40
And basically said, I think you might have some opportunity under BK and X. 01:57:44
To make some headway, right when's our next reporting requirement? I'm sorry, the next reporting requirement is August 1st August. 01:57:49
One thing it seems like maybe, given that we're in week one of a session where they're going to be waving their arms very 01:57:59
impressively up there about housing. 01:58:03
This discussion may be premature. 01:58:09
Given that. 01:58:11
As Gina mentioned, I implied things could change dramatically in terms of what the mandate is going to be after this session. 01:58:13
I don't know how quickly that would. 01:58:21
Just don't. I think we want to make sure we had started the discussion in case that doesn't change. 01:58:25
Or even if it does change, I can't, wouldn't it? That would affect a later year. Don't you think that anything they change or do, 01:58:30
would they make changes that quickly? 01:58:33
I think it's possible to make it for the next reporting session. 01:58:37
I just want to make sure you have all the tools you have in your report. 01:58:42
Another example would be I think we're looking at. 01:58:50
Strategy F. 01:58:54
I think it's on your screen. 01:58:56
Maybe it's just off the rezoning. 01:58:58
Rezoning for higher, which is currently on your list. 01:59:00
Rezone or rezone for higher density. 01:59:04
Residential develop. 01:59:07
That's becoming an increasingly difficult situation. 01:59:09
This community and this council. 01:59:13
That may not be something you want to listen. 01:59:15
Well, I mean, it seems to me that the alternatives you've chosen. 01:59:22
Makes sense? 01:59:26
And our kind of things. 01:59:28
Take on as low hanging fruit, assuming the list doesn't change. 01:59:30
During the current legislative session. 01:59:35
So are you just sort of asking for a thumbs up on moving forward on those three? Just researching some? 01:59:38
Task and some actions under those items. 01:59:44
Yeah. Or if there's elements that, you know, absolutely. 01:59:47
We're not going to be able to attain a report on. 01:59:50
Keep those off the list. 01:59:54
Start researching elements of those strategies that we will never work. 01:59:57
When it says providing resources that will help our residents toward improving energy efficiency, we're just talking about 02:00:01
educational resources and informational kind of things great. 02:00:05
Would if I don't remember when it was that you. 02:00:10
I don't even know what it was before I was on the council, but you changed it so that. 02:00:15
Property owners could qualify for some. 02:00:21
Rebate or something if they had for water. 02:00:25
Would that count on energy efficiency? There's water on hold, so that, so that would that qualify for this, right, all utilities, 02:00:29
all of that? 02:00:33
So we could get credit for that, correct. Right now we can't. If we don't have it in the plan, we'll get that on there. 02:00:38
But because they did it last year, would it still count if we, if they, if it continues for this year done. 02:00:45
But. 02:00:52
Ask John. We should keep that one on there, shouldn't we? 02:00:53
I mean, we've done it right. 02:00:58
We can report on it I guess, but. 02:01:03
But I mean. 02:01:07
Yeah. 02:01:10
Can we take it off? 02:01:15
Do one of the other ones, then in a future year bring it back on? 02:01:17
That's why I said we can swap, then we can just it's a game application them and trade off instead of just finally ending up with 02:01:23
all of them. 02:01:28
Well, John, I thought we were looking at. 02:01:33
Changing our Ord. 02:01:37
As far as detached Adu's, external Adu's. 02:01:39
So doesn't that qualify under the Adu is continuing to work with it? 02:01:43
We can give an A date that she can put on the report saying. 02:01:49
The end of. 02:01:54
September, we look at additional steps that we can amend our accessory doing. 02:01:56
That has yet been put through the process, so we're waiting for that to be. 02:02:03
Report on. 02:02:07
So that we get credit. 02:02:09
Well, as long as we're talking about it anyway, let's get credit for it. 02:02:11
It's a game of giving them enough to satisfy them, but not more. Is that right? 02:02:16
Because then you have to give them more next year. Yeah, exactly. You just have to be careful that we're not going to commit to 02:02:21
changing a specific element. 02:02:24
We're looking at we're. 02:02:28
We're going to create specific groups and by this state we're. 02:02:30
Have some sort of. 02:02:34
Movement or. 02:02:35
Accepting more ADUS in our backyards than. 02:02:37
And add measurements to that like on an annual basis. We'll bring the conversation back. 02:02:41
To see what else we can do and evaluate and educate. And those are all things that you can add to the plan. 02:02:46
And he had credit for in future years. 02:02:53
So that's under. 02:02:57
That's in any. 02:03:00
OK, the water was under B, water's under. 02:03:02
I think you're on the right track. I mean, I think. 02:03:11
Go forward based on what we've talked here about, just making sure we're capturing what we're doing and then going after these 02:03:16
other things that are easy. 02:03:19
So, yeah, is that. I'm not sure we're giving you what you need. No, that's I want direction. I want the council to say, yeah, move 02:03:25
forward, evaluate. 02:03:30
Those and get it to the next step. Oh yeah, I don't, I don't know why we wouldn't want to do that, but but I think, yeah, it's 02:03:35
like. 02:03:40
I think we all understand what they're trying to accomplish here, but I was talking to Drew and Emily, who went to the 02:03:46
presentation on the like affordable housing is going to be the thing. 02:03:51
And we get. 02:03:56
But it's really difficult for us to. 02:03:58
Do anything that really. 02:04:01
Has a material impact, right so. 02:04:04
If there are items in here that you've looked at it and you know more about this than we do, right, in terms of what our 02:04:08
challenges are and what they're after saying, I think we have opportunity here, here and here. 02:04:13
That maybe we can make some headway and then we can report on it exactly. 02:04:20
That's the sad thing is that affordable housing is a lofty, a beautiful ideal, right? The reality is, is. 02:04:24
Holiday is just not an affordable place and there's not really anything that I don't believe can be done to make it, to really 02:04:32
make it affordable. It's all relative, I guess. 02:04:36
And I don't know. There is. You could have the government give the developer money to put in his pro forma right to make his 02:04:41
return work right. 02:04:46
I was in for that. I was like a neighborhood toxic waste dumps to devalue the properties, reduce the land cost. 02:04:53
That's a joke, for the record. 02:05:02
Look, it's a challenge, but we, I think there's some opportunities here, here and here, right? Let's start. 02:05:06
Working on that and see if we can make some headway that we can report on. 02:05:12
Yeah. 02:05:16
Super. That's a thumbs up. Thanks, Han. From a process standpoint, this will go to the Planning Commission to consider and then 02:05:19
come back to you for approval. 02:05:24
OK. Thanks. 02:05:30
Thank you. 02:05:33
Thanks. 02:05:34
Appreciate. 02:05:35
OK. 02:05:38
I think any final comments or a movement, any other business? 02:05:43
Mr. Mary, I have to adjourn. 02:05:48
Second all in favor, aye? 02:05:50
Thank you. 02:05:54
Since you're all there, let me just say thank you. 02:05:57
I think, I think. 02:06:04