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So if Carrie and Steph's ready to go, I think we'll do a recall to order here if everybody's all set and we will jump in with item 00:00:00
number six. 00:00:05
On our agenda, which is the subdivisions. 00:00:11
Topic Oh my gosh, this looks like fun. Is this carry that's going to be leading this discussion? This one goes to John. All right, 00:00:15
John, you're on the hot plate. Just so excited to talk about subdivision amendments. 00:00:21
So from the legislature hot off the legislators agendas. 00:00:29
This year was a discussion on how to create as many, you know, creating more properties, more homes to make that meet those two 00:00:34
ends of affordability and the having a product that. 00:00:40
Is accessible to municipalities. 00:00:46
One of the hurdles that was brought to the legislature by. 00:00:49
Specific groups was this process by which land is entitled. 00:00:53
Meaning, how fast do subdivisions get through planning commissions? 00:00:59
Specifically. 00:01:05
Looking at all the municipalities across the counties and in the state. 00:01:07
He was discovering that many processes are similar to ours. 00:01:11
Others only have one hearing. You know there were. 00:01:15
Types of processes and how many public hearings are. 00:01:19
And the development community was saying it's confusing. 00:01:23
Ess. 00:01:27
So this the state's mandate was to standardize. 00:01:28
So we have until February 1st to standardize our subdivision process. 00:01:32
Spec. 00:01:39
Moving away from a three-step process, which you're. 00:01:41
Concept of preliminary and a final. 00:01:44
You will no longer have a concept review. 00:01:49
That concept review will be to be a staff level or will roll into some of those elements into the preliminary level. 00:01:52
And some of the real technical items. 00:02:00
That are in the preliminary level of review will roll into a final review which is only available for staff. 00:02:03
That's the second part of this amendment. 00:02:09
Second part meaning. 00:02:12
Only this municipality has only three or four opportunities of review for a final plat. 00:02:15
4 rounds of back and forth with their engineering firm. 00:02:22
In order to get a preliminary final construction set which includes grading storm water retention utility. 00:02:25
Installation. 00:02:33
The nitty gritty that maybe the Planning Commission does not necessarily. 00:02:34
Interested in as far as a land use? 00:02:38
The engineering side and Public Works is interested. The utility companies are interested. 00:02:42
So the state is saying allow the applicant to have that conversation with staff. 00:02:48
At a reasonable rate, with four maximum reviews. 00:02:53
So no concept review that some of those elements will be rolled into a preliminary meeting, one meeting with the Planning 00:02:58
Commission, one hearing. 00:03:02
And that's where the entitlement happens. So after that preliminary review you'll be seeing. 00:03:08
Utility connections, but maybe not the details of the depths of where those pipes are grading. 00:03:14
The lot sizes, utility connection letters? Basically, can those two lots be serviced by? 00:03:20
Life safety, those types of elements making sure it meets the ordinance. 00:03:27
Having your hearing, see if there's any. 00:03:31
Situations and that needs to be addressed in the public. 00:03:34
And then it rolls into. 00:03:38
At staff only. 00:03:40
And so that's that, that's the the third element. 00:03:43
The 4th one is something that is kind of new to at least to holiday is an appeal process. 00:03:47
If after four reviews from a municipality. 00:03:56
The city and the applicant can agree on what is, whatever the element might be, a storm water retention facility type. 00:04:00
They have the ability to appeal that decision to a specific body. 00:04:08
That is made-up by professionals in the field. 00:04:13
And it goes from there. 00:04:18
Highly likely the city of holiday maintenance will never get to that point, but from the larger cities and huge subdivisions that 00:04:21
are plotting 80 to 100 lots, it could be a feasible scenario. But we need to establish the process anyway. 00:04:28
So that's in that ordinance amendment in a nutshell. 00:04:36
The state of Utah is funding various. 00:04:41
To allow municipalities to be counseled on this type of amendment to make sure. 00:04:46
Just like our moderate income housing plan, it has to meet a certain standard and it has to be basically approved. 00:04:53
Luckily, our legal counsel is on that list, so we're going to be getting some free counsel from at least them. So that's why we're 00:04:59
waiting. 00:05:05
Before we get into draft what that amendment and what that actually looks like so that we can have it reviewed. 00:05:11
For compliance with the state law. 00:05:16
And I think in your packet I included what that state law language. 00:05:19
It's a red line. It's a Senate bill. 174 is very huge, but there's just an excerpt that we've taken out that deals with 00:05:23
subdivisions. 00:05:28
So basically, yeah, I don't blame you. 00:05:34
We'll be matching that as much as we possibly can word. 00:05:37
But what it means is our ordinance will be. 00:05:41
Affected greatly. You can see that there's four chapters or 4 sections. 00:05:47
In the title where Subdivision process? 00:05:51
Is addressed, so a good thing it'll be truncated the process, it'll be easier to understand for the applicant. 00:05:54
And you won't be having these long drawn out meetings for subdivisions. 00:06:03
Just to just to verify compliance. 00:06:09
So all around I think it's a decent amendment that we are required to make. 00:06:12
And as we get further into it, I think it'll make me become more. 00:06:18
So will we. 00:06:23
We have a clear understanding of like what's I mean it sounds like it's going to be fairly large and its impact for. 00:06:25
The pre work we have to do to study for approval or you know discussion on some of these things. 00:06:33
And obviously we, I can't speak for the Commission, but I mean, I trust that you're going to go in and rewrite it exactly to what 00:06:40
the state says and do it in the most sensible way possible. But are we going to have some kind of recursive training of like, OK, 00:06:45
here's what you're actually going to do and this is what's everything that's changed now and here's the things you need to look 00:06:50
at. 00:06:54
Yeah, we'll definitely review it. And then we have the process, because the process has to be written and that'll be your. 00:07:00
Chapter 8. So your process is written in there very clearly when you're supposed to hold a hearing. 00:07:06
When the applicant has the responsibility to respond to the staff's comments. 00:07:12
It's pretty black and white in that section, so when we go through that. 00:07:17
Hopefully it'll be it'll be clear as to what your responsibilities will be. 00:07:20
The hope, but at that point you'll just see now that we have a public hearing at the preliminary level. 00:07:25
The list of items that we're going to see will be sort of a combination of preliminary and concept. 00:07:31
But maybe not so much the technical side. 00:07:37
And you can leave the technical sides to our engineering department or public. 00:07:40
To have them go back and forth with the engineering side. 00:07:44
To get a drawing that is acceptable to the city. 00:07:49
And. 00:07:54
I always mess up the order. I'm sorry. Is the the concept where the the tree review is or is that in the final? 00:07:56
That will be preliminary. That'll be a preliminary. Thank you. So it's a good thing we're combining because I mess them up. 00:08:03
Anyway, this concept right now is really, does it comply with the zone? Do you have lot sizes that are right and can those? 00:08:09
Or more lots be serviced by utilities. 00:08:15
And then parking is going to be somewhere in there as well still or if it's like a multi family project or multi use project, yes 00:08:19
parking will be in there because that's that's his own compliance issue. 00:08:25
And I forgot there's another element that. 00:08:33
That is going to be a policy question that I think that our Council is going to have to make a final decision on. 00:08:38
One that you can recommend to them. 00:08:45
Is that and this occurred several years ago, we just haven't adopted it yet. 00:08:47
One and two lot subdivisions are not required to go to your land use. 00:08:53
One in two lot subdivisions can be done administratively. 00:08:57
By. 00:09:01
It's always been the policy by holiday City Council to review those about the land use authority in this body. 00:09:03
So we are going to bring that to the Planning Commission and then also City Council, see what they think about. 00:09:10
Leaving 2 lot subdivisions. 00:09:17
Just to staff as a staff review and. 00:09:19
Anything more than that, 2-3 lots. 00:09:23
A multifamily condos multi multi use projects will obviously go to the land use authority. 00:09:26
But those two lot subdivisions? 00:09:34
Most cities don't take to their Planning Commission. 00:09:36
And are those noticed? 00:09:40
Yeah, they'll follow a different notice. So what will happen is the the site will be posted. 00:09:43
And then they'll have, we'll take a 10 day comment period. If there's anything that's really abnormal shows up, then we'll bring 00:09:48
it to the Planning Commission for review. 00:09:53
Otherwise, after that 10 day, we'll just follow through with our own preliminary concept and final platinum process. 00:09:58
But it won't be in this venue, it'll just be at administrative level. 00:10:04
And. 00:10:09
Will there when it's noticed, whether it's still a budding properties and neighbors will be noticed up to 500 feet or whatever, 00:10:11
right? 00:10:14
Yeah, that's another element that I'm pretty sure that their council would like to preserve is the is the noticing and hearing. 00:10:20
But instead of it actually being a hearing where people come say I don't want it in my backyard, it'll just be send your comments 00:10:28
to staff and they'll say thanks, send it to Kerry and beat her up and find out what exactly needs to if it if it's actually a 00:10:34
substantive comment that needs to be addressed by the Planning Commission rather than staff in in in an open meeting. 00:10:40
Not in my department behind you know, closed doors, so to speak. 00:10:47
Other questions? 00:10:56
Mr. Tierlink. 00:10:58
Upcoming changes We're all excited to learn new. 00:11:00
It's just getting figured out, right? 00:11:03
Too. 00:11:07
Well, as long as you guys guide us through the process, I'm sure it'll be great. Well, we're learning with. 00:11:09
So we'll figure it out. We'll just remember to have meetings when we're supposed to have meetings. You can just kick the chair on 00:11:14
that one. 00:11:17
All right. Well then with that any, if there's no other questions on that, then we'll look forward to the proposed changes coming 00:11:20
to a meeting to you soon and move on to. 00:11:25
OK, so item number 7, Ordinance discussion about home occupations. Conditional use permits that are involved with home 00:11:33
occupations. 00:11:38
Business licensing, parking, kind of everything that is within the purview of or involved with a home occupation. So Speaking of 00:11:43
fewer meetings. 00:11:48
The proposal is to take the conditional use that's associated with a home occupation and create a set list of conditions that are 00:11:54
applied to all home occupation permits. 00:12:01
In our review process, as you've seen with. 00:12:10
Home occupations that that you have reviewed, it's typically very similar conditions. 00:12:12
Imposed by, you know, specifics of parking has to all be on the site. 00:12:20
Limited hours. If there's groups, you know what? How does drop off and pick up? How is that managed? So it's including those and 00:12:26
making sure those are included within the list of conditions. 00:12:32
And you can be as specific or more general as you want, imposing those. 00:12:39
And or allowing staff to impose conditions that are specifically relevant to the application. 00:12:46
Some of those are outlined in the table that is in the staff report. 00:12:55
So going through those, some of the changes are more minor housekeeping items, changing the table of allowed uses. 00:13:01
Home occupation changing approval by the Planning Commission to approval of by staff with conditions. 00:13:12
Umm. 00:13:18
Putting. 00:13:20
You could consider separating out the impact of home occupations. So daycares, preschools, group lessons might be a higher impact 00:13:23
because of the amount of of people coming to the site. So you could put a limitation or you know define low versus high impact, 00:13:30
what is high impact, what is low impact? That's something that we could look into if that is something that the Planning 00:13:37
Commission would like to see and some proposed text. 00:13:45
The another issue that. 00:13:55
That we were looking at is with the involvement of accessory buildings or yard space. Our current code does not allow the use of 00:13:59
yard space or accessory buildings. 00:14:05
The production of things can occur in those, but the actual conducting of the business has to occur within the primary dwelling. 00:14:10
As we looked at this, it was you know, if somebody has created an accessory building or want to use part of a detached garage, or 00:14:19
build a detached structure that is just for their office purposes. 00:14:26
Being able to allow that within specific conditions. 00:14:35
So that is a consideration that that you can discuss. 00:14:38
Parking. 00:14:42
Currently our code refers to our off stripe or on site parking requirements which requires 2 for business use based off of any 00:14:44
businesses. The same standard for home occupations and the same standard for any business use within commercial zones I. 00:14:54
Professional office zones. 00:15:06
A proposed change on that would be to allow the use of 1 off or one street parking space directly abutting the the residents. 00:15:09
That suggestion came from a review of looking at. 00:15:20
Liberties. 00:15:27
They had some proposed code. 00:15:29
Suggesting that you could evolve. 00:15:31
And the link between that is a normal residential use, so residential uses typically you'd see on street parking allowed. 00:15:35
Or guests would have on street parking, so allowing your home occupation to involve one on street parking space. 00:15:44
So that would be a consideration that you could look. 00:15:52
Other than that, your specific condition could be that all parking associated with the business. 00:15:56
Involves. 00:16:01
The property itself. 00:16:03
And that one street or or it could just be all managed on site. So taking out the required two and just saying it's all managed 00:16:05
within the property. Carrie, I'm curious. 00:16:10
With the like for example, the parking changes, right? 00:16:17
Would there be consideration given to the different master plans? For example, I could see. 00:16:22
Saying allowing street parking in the Village would be a much bigger deal than allowing street parking in an R110 in the North 40 00:16:29
of Holiday where you know people are parked on the street. 00:16:35
Anyway, you know what I mean, Yeah. 00:16:41
And that could be a zone consideration. 00:16:46
If you wanted. 00:16:49
And I don't know, John, maybe you'd have a suggestion on how that could be addressed or if that would be. 00:16:51
A good consideration to include differe. 00:17:00
Working requirements based off of the zone, sure. So for example, you can definitely have a percentage of what's allowed the off 00:17:03
street or on street parking or off site. 00:17:08
In the village you have, we have I think a minimum of 10% of your minimum required can be. 00:17:15
Used as the yarn St. stalls that are in front. 00:17:21
It's very difficult for a municipality to defend the fact. 00:17:25
If you have a home based. 00:17:29
You those clients can't use a public St. to park in front of their house, whereas. 00:17:32
Other guests could. 00:17:37
I think we want to make sure we put the city in a good position to not to be defensible. 00:17:40
On whether or not that requirement is being placed on applicants. 00:17:47
To have the requirement for off street parking. 00:17:51
Whether that's a percentage you can have or a certain time of the day, you know those are the type of scenarios we might be 00:17:55
looking at. If on street parking was an option, that's that's now considered by Planning Commission and City Council. 00:18:01
Come. 00:18:09
Yeah, I have a bit of a concern with the whole idea that many people already have the the parking in front of their houses, their 00:18:10
parking. 00:18:14
And that they have exclusive control of it. And that and practice I've seen in another community where people put cones in their 00:18:19
front of their home so that only people they want to park in their part of the public street can park. 00:18:27
In that and whether or not if you allow say one of the two parking spaces to be an off St. and yours is already full does that now 00:18:36
your neighbor you can park in front of the neighbors house and then they come out and say no I got a party to say and you know I 00:18:42
mean. 00:18:48
I think it's a dangerous thing to start down this idea that the public owns. 00:18:54
In any way, whether it's for Hallmark or guests or whatever the parking in front of their house, it's just street parking. 00:18:59
And then but you know I I think it's worthy of the discussion and and looking at it but I you know I'm I'm a little concerned that 00:19:08
that reinforces the idea that the parking in front of your house is your control, absolute control of of that. 00:19:16
And you could I mean it. 00:19:26
An option would be to just not detail any of the not restricting on street parking at all if there's street parking available, 00:19:28
people who are coming to the house for business purposes as long as it's a low impact. So if you're looking at dividing low and 00:19:36
high impact, maybe all of low impact is. 00:19:43
You know you can park on site. You have to. 00:19:51
Parking provided on site. 00:19:54
If there is some street parking, it would be one car at a time. 00:19:56
So something like that that restricts some degree of parking, but isn't so specific about it's the one spot in front of your 00:20:00
house. 00:20:05
And for your code enforcement people, this becomes a very problematic thing about you know, OK, how do you prove which purpose 00:20:11
that car is there? 00:20:16
You. 00:20:21
It's real easy when you see the cello getting pulled out of the back of it. 00:20:22
You have. 00:20:27
You know this is not a public hearing, so but and that related to that, I did have a thought because of what happened earlier and 00:20:31
that I do think we need to think about if the home walk is in a apartment complex which is different than a condominium, which is 00:20:40
different than a residential community. 00:20:48
And they have single homes, and there may be unique things for each of those. 00:20:58
And one would be an interesting legal question about, you know, if it runs with the land OK and it comes in an apartment. 00:21:04
And we don't have the owner of the apartment asking for. 00:21:11
We have a. 00:21:15
A renter? 00:21:17
In that condominium, obviously different how you got an owner. 00:21:18
But unit 229 if I remember the number you 2229. So I want to move into a complex. 00:21:22
And I don't want to go through a process, so I buy 229 because it already has. I just think that those, at least those three kinds 00:21:29
of housing have some very unique. 00:21:35
Considerations independent of HOA rules and all that. Mm-hmm. And that, that. 00:21:41
Are worthy at looking at as we we review this there there is. That's a good point and I I think it'll require some work to figure 00:21:48
out what the right solution is given. 00:21:53
These different communities, but one way you can get at. 00:21:59
Is to tie with the home occupation business. 00:22:03
That runs with the land business license requirement. That doesn't run with the land. 00:22:08
And if the business license ceases to exist at the location, then. 00:22:14
Permitted. 00:22:19
Or conditional use ceases to exist at the location that would be good and they they're kind of tied together. 00:22:21
And then similarly the business license gives you the right to. 00:22:28
The property from time to time when they go for a renewal. 00:22:33
So for those difficult, code enforcement matters where you're limited because you cannot enter a home. 00:22:36
Look at traffic counts or do those kinds of things. It gives you a. 00:22:44
To go in and inspect. 00:22:48
I know we're not talking about ad use, but if you had. 00:22:49
Adus or things like that, you know, that's a good tool that can help you get at some of those issues. 00:22:53
Yeah. 00:23:00
And do you envision if it becomes an administrative process through staff, there would still be public notice? 00:23:01
Because. 00:23:11
One of the things I've noticed and this this woman tonight was a good example. 00:23:12
We don't know enough about the situation that the neighbors know lots of things. 00:23:17
Some of which are true and some of which aren't, but at least at least. 00:23:22
You know, tell us what is something that should be subject. 00:23:28
Or may be subject to a conditional use. 00:23:31
And we keep calling it a conditional use, but if there's no public input, it's. 00:23:35
Unless, you know, we figure out ferret it out on our own, which really isn't our job. 00:23:40
You know and that. So I as we go through this, if it becomes administrative process, would there still be a noticing requirement? 00:23:44
I think there is a value to that. 00:23:49
Yeah. And the, I mean the purpose of a conditional use is to mitigate impact on surrounding properties. So it's to look at what 00:23:55
that impact is. Some of those impacts may not be immediately foreseeable and that I guess that's a question that for a legal 00:24:01
counsel could. 00:24:07
Noticing be a requirement still without having a public hearing. 00:24:14
Where you just take comments. 00:24:19
The way that we want to take address this is finding. 00:24:22
Home occupation uses that have been routine and uncontested in the past. 00:24:27
Because those standards have pretty much been standardized. 00:24:31
As years have passed and applications keeps coming on and all the same conditions get applied to. 00:24:35
You know the weird circumstances, the odd ducks, so to speak, that would come to the Planning Commission would would be noticed. 00:24:41
Like, for example, a home occupation in a condo complex. 00:24:49
Or some odd. 00:24:53
Home occupation or business that's being run out of a home that we've never seen before, Those are not routine and they could 00:24:55
possibly be contested as well. So those, those definitely would have a hearing applied to them. 00:25:01
For sure. 00:25:08
But for those others that are. 00:25:09
Music lessons? 00:25:12
You know the the home based therapist. 00:25:14
We know what those conditions have been applied or in the past we can pretty much standardize. 00:25:18
As long as they comply with those standards themselves. 00:25:23
Great. They can get their business license and go. 00:25:27
If they can't, then they can bring, come bring it to the Planning Commission with a hearing and find out what those those issues 00:25:30
are. 00:25:32
But you're absolutely right. You know, the hearing process is critical for that fact finding. 00:25:36
So it's just to kind of summarize. So really what you're looking for is like take the ones that pretty much no one can test that 00:25:44
we approve all the time and we ask a couple questions about parking and just say city staff can handle those from now on. We don't 00:25:50
need to go through all the rings of fire for planning and everybody else for these applicants. 00:25:57
And in. 00:26:03
And what and in which zone you're comfortable with? Yeah. 00:26:05
Makes. 00:26:10
Any other questions? 00:26:14
Lessening our workload. 00:26:17
Let's go ahead and move on to the next one. 00:26:24
Don't. 00:26:30
And then I guess on that note too with these discussions, if you have any points that you would like staff to go the direction and 00:26:32
so those items of discussion. 00:26:37
Where What kind of drafted text would you like to see? 00:26:43
So just a. 00:26:48
In this case, how specific or more general? 00:26:50
Are you talking about in regards to? 00:26:55
Just how much? 00:26:58
Approves on them like or if there's any specific conditions that you want to have included. 00:27:00
I mean I think the on site parking is relevant. 00:27:06
In a lot of cases, I mean, especially after tonight's discussion, I think we kind of went through that, right? 00:27:10
I. 00:27:18
Depending on your number of clients and you know those type of situations on sites not. 00:27:19
Unreasonable request. 00:27:26
So I think that's still something that needs to be considered because like. 00:27:29
In a lot of cases, like am I worried about someone with cello lessons, right? Parking on the street and dropping their kid off to 00:27:35
cello? 00:27:38
Not really. 00:27:42
But what happens when it's a giant moving van that's parking on the street as part of some business? Because that's what they 00:27:43
drive and now all of a sudden it's a problem. You know what I mean? 00:27:50
Landscape Trailer every night. 00:28:00
Yeah. 00:28:03
Those type of things I think is where you start to get kind of a rye on that. Yeah. Some of those more specific things with larger 00:28:05
vehicles are naturally restricted in our code where you can't have vehicles larger than. 00:28:12
110 John Hart for longer than an hour. 00:28:19
I like this idea of. 00:28:27
Having low impact versus high impact. 00:28:29
Sort of. 00:28:33
Looking at the correlation between what the impact is and. 00:28:36
How? How dense or or what zone it's in because? 00:28:40
I mean to me it doesn't make a lot of sense if you are only going to have one person to your home based business at a time. To 00:28:45
require 2 on site parkings like that, that doesn't make sense and that's. 00:28:50
Restricting a lot of people who should not be restricted I think in having their business. So I'm I'm in favor of making the 00:28:55
parking more flexible sort of as as this is. 00:29:01
Suggesting here lowering it for in circumstances where it makes sense to have a lower minimum. 00:29:07
And then in places where it's more dense, we still want people to be able to have businesses even if they live in a condo, so. 00:29:16
Umm. 00:29:25
You know, figuring, figuring that out, how how are we going to let them do that? I think that's reasonable. 00:29:27
We have a lot of parking lots. 00:29:33
I think we should. 00:29:37
Use. 00:29:39
You know and. 00:29:41
Be as restricted as we have. So I think that combination. 00:29:43
Is good thinking about impact and. 00:29:48
With the parking, the prohibited uses, can you just talk about that one again it looks like. 00:29:50
Don't have prohibited uses. 00:29:58
And this is making suggestions about things that. 00:30:02
May not want people to do in their home based businesses. Is that is that a correct reading of that right? 00:30:05
So. 00:30:11
There were a couple of cities that call out specific uses in that home occupation section of uses that are expressly not allowed. 00:30:13
So example. 00:30:18
Salons with multiple employees. So if you have like 2 salon people, so then they're seeing multiple clients at a time. 00:30:25
Kennels, commercial stables. These are pretty. 00:30:33
Or just much larger impact? 00:30:36
Home occupations that could occur. 00:30:39
You could include these or any other specifics that that you could see as potentially being an issue or we could incorporate just 00:30:42
a general provision that any uses outside of a normal customary use would require review by Planning Commission. 00:30:51
Just in the short time I've been on the Commission, we've seen. 00:31:04
Instances. 00:31:09
Neighbors tend to bleed before they're cut. 00:31:11
You know, we get a lot of complaints from people who anticipate problems before there's even. 00:31:16
Any action. 00:31:24
And. 00:31:26
I think we have to be sensitive to that and. 00:31:27
We can't head everything off at the pass. I think we just have to. 00:31:31
Understand that people don't like change. 00:31:36
And to Angela's point, we want to be welcoming and friendly to business. 00:31:40
I I like your description of the. 00:31:46
Us. 00:31:49
That would fall outside of. 00:31:52
Types of activities would have to be reviewed, however it was you said that that sounded a reasonable way to try and split the. 00:31:55
You know, split the difference between. 00:32:03
Prescribing everything that is allowed and everything that's not allowed. 00:32:05
In a more workable way. 00:32:10
It would not be appropriate for me to make the policy judgment. 00:32:13
Is for you all. 00:32:17
But there are certain categories of uses that are just dangerous if they're in a home environment. 00:32:19
And I would encourage you to look at the list that they put together. The firearms 1 catches my eye, that's for sure. And. 00:32:27
Issues you'll get into are dry cleaning businesses that use in store chemicals, firearms. You know, there are certain categories 00:32:36
of things where I think you pretty easily can say we never want this to occur. 00:32:42
There's a middle category of things where. 00:32:48
Maybe you'll want to see it and apply some jud. 00:32:51
But I. 00:32:55
There are some things where you will want to list, otherwise it becomes difficult to defend it when when you deny that use or that 00:32:57
application. 00:33:01
Sample that kind of comes to mind might be. 00:33:06
Somebody that's running a paint and Body Shop out of their two car detached a garage and they have air compressors and grinders 00:33:09
and right. The smell of paints in in you know introduced to the neighborhood, you know. 00:33:16
Or the like the firearms or. Or the firearms. Grenades. Yeah. In the basement. Never go off. Yeah, yeah. 00:33:24
Archery centers. 00:33:32
As far as like allowing on street parking, if it were to go that way with certain uses, 1 consideration I would want to see in 00:33:35
there would be the number of. 00:33:41
Allowed conditional uses on a street or adjacent in a certain neighborhood. 00:33:47
Because, for example, I live on a street that has 15 houses of 10 of my neighbors decided they all wanted a conditional use permit 00:33:52
to do cello lessons. 00:33:56
I would be very. 00:34:00
Coming down my street at the hours of drop off and pick up of all my neighbors doing it at once. 00:34:02
I'm on a street right now where I know they don't have conditional use permits, but there's three home based businesses. 00:34:10
All within. 00:34:17
Less than an eighth of a mile of my home. 00:34:18
And when they're having their parties every Friday night. 00:34:21
It's so crazy you can't even get one car down the drive or down the street, let alone pass the car. 00:34:26
And that becomes a safety issue. It becomes, you know, an issue where if we're allowing every home on a street to have a home 00:34:33
based business and on street parking. 00:34:38
I didn't purchase my home to live in a business district, right? Yeah, And that's one of the elements that's already currently 00:34:43
written in ordinance. 00:34:48
You can. 00:34:54
Or exert your authority to deny a conditional use permit if there is. 00:34:56
And I don't know exactly what the language is. Something like an unusual concentration? 00:35:01
Of those types of uses within and, it gives a. 00:35:06
I've never really ran into that before. 00:35:11
But yes, that type of that notion is in there is in the court already, OK. 00:35:14
Just looking into the crystal ball, I'm sure there's not 12 piano teachers on one street right now, but you never know. The only 00:35:19
situation where I've run into that being an issue is where you have home based business applications. 00:35:25
Residences that are near schools. 00:35:32
If the drop off and pick up time for the home based business is the same as the school, then you get the crush all at once. 00:35:35
Those. 00:35:43
I don't know what you call them in your code, but the accumulation of impacts all at the same time becomes an issue. 00:35:45
Yeah. 00:35:52
And we most likely hear about that from neighbors who know the schedule. Remember the one we had with? 00:35:53
Hairdresser and they wanted to keep the. 00:36:02
Not have them open. Wireless alleyway was being used for the school. 00:36:05
Which was, you know, the school is now closed. So you know, we and we knew that and they they probably should have known that too. 00:36:09
But. 00:36:13
You only hear about those things from the immediate neighbors who know the flow of the neighborhood. 00:36:19
A consideration on that too with it is one of the bullet points. So parking that exceeds the parking that is available on the. 00:36:25
Possibly involving that one extra street parking in front of the house or one street parking space in general. So putting a 00:36:34
limitation on how often that type of exceedance can occur so it can't exceed more than two times in a month or more than two times 00:36:41
in a 30 day period, whatever that. 00:36:48
What would be reasonable? 00:36:56
For exceedance. 00:36:59
I feel like that might be a challenge for code enforcement, though, right? Like you'd have to have a neighbor. That's like 00:37:03
recording the comings and goings, basically. Yeah, And a lot of, a lot of the. 00:37:07
Conditional use issues, when it does come to code enforcement and what it creates an issue is then when Planning Commission would 00:37:14
look at it or the Community and Economic Development Director would look at it and say OK we need to evaluate your conditions 00:37:19
here. I I do think it is reasonable to say something like. 00:37:25
Yes, it may happen once or twice a month, but more than that is could be considered an unreasonable. 00:37:31
Imposition on the neighbors. 00:37:39
We may not hit the right number right off the bat, but if you don't pick a number. 00:37:43
How? 00:37:49
See if it's the right number or not right. 00:37:50
So creating a standard. 00:37:53
Clear. We communicated. 00:37:56
Mr. Barrett. 00:38:03
Any any thoughts? You're awfully quiet down there, yeah. 00:38:04
Taking it all in, I think it's a good idea to do this type of code. Give staff some authority on these things where the Commission 00:38:08
I, you know, where the law already sets out the standards and if they can meet that, that that should be them. Go ahead and get 00:38:13
started. 00:38:18
I My biggest concern here is how we define what neighborhood traffic is anymore, because I think wasn't the. 00:38:24
Standard 10 vehicle trips per day per residence. 00:38:33
So, but there used to be a or there is a standard for how many vehicles can come to your house. 00:38:39
And beyond that is an increase in neighborhood traffic. Well, I know now that I have several 100. 00:38:45
You know, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks that are going down, that are changing by that dynamic of neighborhood traffic. 00:38:55
I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this point, but I'm just I'm concerned about the traffic and the parking. 00:39:03
I don't want to create a law or rules that we can't have some logical. 00:39:11
Effective enforcement. 00:39:16
You know, and so the clearer we can make this, the better I. 00:39:20
I wish I had a better suggestion than that, but I appreciate what the other Commissioners have said because I think that's on 00:39:25
point. 00:39:29
I know that businesses are going to become more sophisticated in the future because. 00:39:34
It's becoming more logical for people to stay at home and do their business and how that all factors, so we may have to have. 00:39:39
An ordinance that can be modified quickly to meet those kind of demands or? 00:39:48
Expect. 00:39:54
Good discussion. Any other? 00:39:59
Thoughts or points around the conditional use text amendment. 00:40:02
Moving right along. 00:40:08
Accessory Dwelling. 00:40:11
Last item. OK, so. 00:40:12
You'll remember our Rezone application that involved an accessory dwelling unit. It wasn't. 00:40:17
It was underneath a detached garage. It was on a lot that was less than 8000 square feet after the public dedication. 00:40:25
Label typically as a bonus room. That might be something that you'd see as, oh, we have a shed that's converted to an office space 00:40:35
or shed that's converted to some sort of. 00:40:41
Neighbor or some sort of alternate use. That's that somebody may want to convert to a accessory dwelling unit. So taking that shed 00:40:48
or some space into. 00:40:53
Making it a habitable space. 00:40:59
So City Council did not approve that rezone, but directed staff to look at our Adu ordinance, and specifically. 00:41:03
Allowing the conversion of existing accessory buildings. So if you have a detached garage or if you have a shed. 00:41:13
What kind of a code? 00:41:23
Change would then allow somebody to convert that accessory dwelling or accessory building into a dwelling unit. 00:41:26
So right now our code does not allow external dwelling units on lots that are less than half an acre or that are twice the the 00:41:34
minimum lot size. 00:41:39
John, is it that they can't rent that so they could still create? 00:41:47
Some sort of habitable space in an accessory unit, but they couldn't rent it. 00:41:52
OK. 00:41:58
With the current code. 00:42:00
OK. And I think the way that we proceed is written is that. 00:42:04
To the. 00:42:09
To be used. 00:42:13
Accessory standards. 00:42:18
So I could turn. 00:42:25
Would there be restrictions on how many? Like for example if I had a shed and a greenhouse in my backyard which I do, could I make 00:42:27
2 accessory dwelling units? No our code limits and accessory dwelling unit. You can only have one on the property so that could be 00:42:33
interior or or an external. 00:42:39
So in this particular case, were they looking for a way to let this person have what they've denied him, we denied him? 00:42:48
Or they really think that they want to open up the whole city. 00:42:56
It's a larger they looked at. 00:43:01
As a way. 00:43:06
Address some of our moderate income housing goals, one of those being remove restrictions around accessory dwelling units. 00:43:10
So looking at what our current code is, how restrictive is it? What changes could be made to that to meet that moderate income 00:43:18
housing goal? 00:43:22
And thus allow the creation of more accessory dwelling units. 00:43:27
And I'm in. 00:43:31
Increasing the ability to have moderate but what we tend to approve. 00:43:34
Taking 2000 square foot guest houses and make them into 5000 square foot, which doesn't help the moderate. 00:43:39
You know, it's almost like. 00:43:48
The people with the money to build these huge things. 00:43:50
Where? 00:43:54
The the changes to allow moderate. 00:43:57
Housing. 00:44:01
The goal isn't being met. 00:44:04
True, it's being met. It's being met by taking big places on expensive properties and creating a house that's not moderately 00:44:07
priced. 00:44:11
Those that you that you see that go through that process are pretty small subset to what Kerry reviews and approves at the counter 00:44:16
for accessory buildings. 00:44:21
That's why they're coming to you is because they're they're abnormality. 00:44:25
In the area there might be conditions that have to be applied to that large of a structure. 00:44:29
Umm. 00:44:35
It's. 00:44:36
I would say maybe one or two a year. 00:44:37
Maybe 3 come to the Planning Commission but opposed to maybe. 00:44:39
15 or so a year accessory dwelling units. 00:44:43
Reviewed. 00:44:47
Another thing we commonly see is just people who would like to build a detached garage and maybe add a unit above it or you know, 00:44:48
off the back of it. So there are people who are wanting to build accessory dwelling units that are detached and separate from the 00:44:55
house. I'm usually associated with a detached garage some. 00:45:02
There is. 00:45:10
There's a lot more movement in the building community to have modular homes. So you'll see like modular units that are one or two 00:45:12
bedrooms that can just be placed on a house. They're designed to be less expensive to construct, less expensive to put in place. 00:45:19
More approachable for for homeowners, especially owners who own smaller properties that maybe want something a little bit smaller. 00:45:26
Is there a minimum size that these would have to be like? I mean, for example, could I take my 20 by 10 greenhouse space and say 00:45:34
it's a tiny home? 00:45:39
You could. There's an accessory. Buildings have a set footprint size. 00:45:45
Minimum size is 200 square feet. 00:45:53
That's I think that. 00:45:56
Yeah, yeah. External dwelling units, there's a minimum size of 200 square feet. I mean, there's barely room for a toilet in that, 00:45:58
but yeah. 00:46:02
Can I ask you a question about the? 00:46:07
The Is there a difference with setbacks and separation from the main structure between accessory buildings and Adus? There is our 00:46:09
code. 00:46:14
States that you have to have a 25% increase in your set back distance if it involves A dwelling unit. 00:46:21
Less. 00:46:30
And that's where you run into some conflict with existing accessory structures. So existing accessory structures are built to 1 00:46:32
standard. 00:46:36
And converting that to a dwelling unit has a different standard. 00:46:42
So the the standard that it was built under would apply. So you're going to end up with some. 00:46:47
Accessory structures that are converted that have the setbacks required for an accessory building, but not the setbacks that would 00:46:54
be required for a new structure or a new dwelling unit. OK And is there a maximum size that the Adu can be? 00:47:02
In comparison to the primary. 00:47:13
So our code has accessory buildings, limited footprint, size, that's the accessory, but not Adus. We don't have, are they the 00:47:18
same? OK, OK. 00:47:23
So that would limit the size of your 5000 square foot. 00:47:29
In most cases, I guess right we do have you can't apply for a conditional use permit. Is that just on guest houses, John? Or is 00:47:34
it? 00:47:38
So you can apply for a conditional use permit for any accessory building that you're proposing to be over the permitted size. 00:47:45
So that would be like the RV garage that they wanted to add on. It was over the larger or over the footprint size? 00:47:53
Add. 00:48:01
So this would be a concern I guess in in looking forward to if this were something that were to happen, but. 00:48:02
If I have a garage right, and it's at the far corner of my backyard, right long driveway, we've seen these old pioneer style 00:48:10
houses down and you know Garfield 13 S area. 00:48:16
But if I decide I want to build an apartment above that garage and call it and you know, a dwelling unit like is there still going 00:48:24
to be restrictions on height and things like that or am I like building this tower that's going to look down on all the neighbors 00:48:31
backyards from that point forward? Exactly. So our building permit process, you do have a graduated height requirement. 00:48:38
So that's created by going 8 feet up and then a 45 degree angle over. 00:48:45
Most structures that are 20 feet or less, just depending on how close they are to the property line if you want. 00:48:51
Our accessory structures are limited to 20 feet in height. 00:48:59
If you're 20, if you're 3 feet off the property line, you may have to come back further away to meet your graduated high 00:49:04
requirements, just depending on how that. 00:49:09
Building is constructed so they could build the tower, but they'd have to build it further into the yard. 00:49:15
So are you looking? 00:49:22
Our comments on the proposed changes that we eliminate. 00:49:24
Twice the size and also at least 1/2 acre, so that yes that is one option so. 00:49:29
Kind of a series of options you could. 00:49:37
You could limit it to just saying code change to. 00:49:41
Allowing the conversion of existing structures that are on lots that are smaller than half an acre or lots that don't meet that 00:49:45
twice the minimum. 00:49:51
Lot size required in. 00:49:57
So that's one option. 00:49:59
If you wanted to. 00:50:01
Eliminates. 00:50:04
The half acre minimum lot size or twice the both of those requirements and allow external dwelling units to be built on lots 00:50:09
smaller than. 00:50:15
Than half an acre, that would be another option. 00:50:21
Can I ask a question on that as far as the history? Are you seeing a lot of requests? 00:50:26
That are bumping up into this twice the size and half acre minimum. 00:50:31
Or I the I mean, does it really hurt if we just eliminate that language and? 00:50:37
If they can fit the building in the property based on the setbacks, they could do it. 00:50:44
And that's where if you wanted to create some more limitations. 00:50:49
For. 00:50:54
Mitigating impacts of if you're going to have an external dwelling. 00:50:55
Maybe it can't have a door that is on a side property line. The door would have to be inside the property. 00:50:59
Another common thing is Windows facing. You know or. 00:51:08
Having to have landscaping or fencing that that buffers from neighboring properties, or requiring larger setback distances so you 00:51:14
could. 00:51:20
Set back your accessory dwelling. 00:51:25
Further from the property lines. 00:51:28
There's some cities that require external dwelling units to be within the setbacks required for a primary structure. 00:51:31
So that could be an option as well. 00:51:40
If you wanted to bring anything that's an accessory dwelling unit external into those. 00:51:43
Required setbacks for a. 00:51:48
I. 00:51:51
For me personally, I would prefer it be the existing conversion rather than the let's let loose and everybody on the street builds 00:51:52
a guest house in the backyard and an R110 where the lots are 8000 square feet. 00:52:00
I could see a whole bunch of tiny homes crowding out real fast, and there's your moderate income. But at the same time, at what 00:52:07
cost do you do that right? Well, whatever is most respectful for the existing residents, right? You know, whatever is most 00:52:13
respectful for the neighbors. 00:52:20
I think I agree with that. 00:52:26
We saw. 00:52:29
In cases where they had an existing and newer home that had just been built and. 00:52:34
Couldn't call it rented or something. Everything problem. 00:52:39
Because it was on two small smalls, a lot and then two of the neighbors also they wanted it rezoned because those two neighbors 00:52:44
also wanted to build accessory dwelling unit. 00:52:49
That would have been a lot. I mean that. 00:52:57
Tripled, right, the residency in that little area on that little St. with small lots as opposed to if this, what we're talking 00:52:59
about happened then the one would have already been built in there and maybe the other one converts his garage, right? 00:53:07
But it doesn't create new buildings because they were wanting to build new buildings, right? 00:53:17
So and feel much more comfortable in doing that. 00:53:23
So they they can still build buildings and they can still build. 00:53:28
External Dwelling Units. 00:53:35
They just. 00:53:37
Rent them. Is that the distinction? No, they. They. 00:53:39
Did they have more than twice the lot size for those lots? No. That was the issue. They were trying to rezone it because they were 00:53:43
trying to so most of those properties in that area and largely for most R110 zones in the city. 00:53:51
We have neighborhoods which we call super conforming. 00:53:59
They're more than the minimum R110 zone. 00:54:02
So not enough to subdivide but. 00:54:05
Too small to plow. You know that type of situation where they they, they just have these massive backyards they don't know what to 00:54:08
do with? Mm-hmm. So they're kind of stuck. 00:54:12
They're stuck between the can't subdivide it to get an extra lot back there, but they're also not big enough to. 00:54:17
Accessory dwelling you in their backyard. 00:54:23
And that is, that is we are seeing that as a hindrance for most people. 00:54:26
Where they go straight down the street and they have a larger lot, maybe a different zone. 00:54:30
Umm. 00:54:35
And they're able to have that that accessory detached. We're talking about detached attached, absolutely. 00:54:36
You can put an addition on your house, put an attached garage, put it in, you know, an accessory dwelling above it, have at it if 00:54:42
they want to do that, they're they're perfectly within their right to do that, yeah. 00:54:47
It is the city tracking the success of moderate income. 00:54:53
We're making these changes. We say all this stuff and then do you, does the city know how many? 00:54:59
Moderate income based housing units there are in the city. 00:55:05
We have a pretty good idea. 00:55:09
Especially those that are. 00:55:12
And we have to report those numbers every year. So I guess I'm wondering if whatever we propose or whatever, can we attach a 00:55:15
guesstimate as to how much impact that would have if we said we did this. We think you know over the next decade we generate 24 00:55:22
more moderate income housing. 00:55:29
And I think that would be useful to us in doing the analysis because you're right, if we're only seeing the guest houses which are 00:55:37
going to be rent free to a family member. 00:55:43
Um. 00:55:49
That didn't solve any moderate income housing. 00:55:50
And if it went on the rental market, it would be not for moderate income housing. 00:55:53
And I guess the larger discussion here. 00:55:58
By allowing smaller units and maybe not a tiny home, maybe it's you know. 00:56:01
Studio. 00:56:07
Pre built thing that a property owner can reasonably. 00:56:08
Put in their backyard and is that significantly different than adding on to a house? So if you're either locating it. 00:56:12
Further back on the property, so there's more privacy or you're adding it onto your house, it's you're still adding a dwelling 00:56:21
unit. 00:56:26
The location is. Can all the parking be managed on? 00:56:31
Can the impacts of putting? 00:56:35
Unit further back on the property. 00:56:38
Be managed with landscaping requirements. 00:56:41
Location of doorways, windows, other sorts of Can you mitigate impacts by allowing an external structure to be built? 00:56:44
And a more theoretical question is that if. 00:56:54
Significant changes in the. 00:56:58
Does that increase or decrease the value of the housing? 00:57:01
To the existing owners. 00:57:05
Is it, you know, does it increase it? 00:57:08
Dec. 00:57:12
And I guess other opportunities about, you know, with an aging population to how, how can that be managed? You know, you have 00:57:13
people who live in their house that maybe would like to. 00:57:19
Live in a detached structure, so. 00:57:25
If you've aged in your house and you would you say this is too much space, I want to have maybe my kids move into the house and 00:57:29
I'm going to go move into this one bedroom unit that. 00:57:34
More private than an internal unit. 00:57:40
So that's kind of the opportunities that you can create with allowing an external dwelling unit. 00:57:43
With less. 00:57:49
While still mitigating impacts of it. 00:57:51
I guess to Paul's point, though, to say it another word, you want to make sure that there's not a whole bunch of slumlords popping 00:57:55
up. Yeah, I mean, what? What? What? Really? You know, does it change the nature of housing and holiday? 00:58:01
And that. 00:58:08
And that, and if there are four or five of these on my street, is my house value going to go up or down? 00:58:10
Will it go up because someone says, Oh well yeah, you can do an Adu and pay part of your mortgage or that. Or does that make it a 00:58:18
less desirable neighborhood and drive the price down for the rest of the homes? 00:58:25
And you know on the note of ownership as well, when you have an Adu, the you can't have two separate owners. So it's still a 00:58:36
single owner they can rent. 00:58:42
Another person, but the owner would have to live on the site. 00:58:49
That wouldn't change in the code it. 00:58:53
Owner has to live on site in either unit. 00:58:57
But. 00:59:00
So they couldn't have two rentals. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to have two rentals. So you wouldn't rent a house and a tiny house. 00:59:02
So it's still owner controlled? 00:59:09
Can I change the subject for a second? Because there's another issue in here that is troubling me and that's the issue of the 00:59:13
lighting. 00:59:17
And it just looks like you've. 00:59:21
Taken out all of the reference to dark sky compliance and LED lighting and so forth. 00:59:24
Yeah, I think, I think the the current language and the proposed changes it's it wouldn't necessarily be removing everything 00:59:36
that's there. So anything that is there can still remain. 00:59:42
The and especially with lighting, that's something that we could include. 00:59:49
Where it would be external dwelling units that maybe have more of a lighting impact. You definitely want to have dark sky 00:59:54
compliant fixtures, so you could say with an external Adu. 00:59:59
You have to have Dark Sky compliant fixtures. 01:00:05
Other thoughts, Commissioners? 01:00:15
Everybody's excited. They can't wait to add a Adu in their backyard. 01:00:17
I think in. 01:00:21
Strikes a balance between sort of. 01:00:23
Maintaining a neighborhood. 01:00:27
Well. 01:00:29
The Valley is going to get three times denser in the next, you know, whatever. Maybe not three times, but you know, the whole 01:00:31
value is getting denser. Let's put it all in somebody else's city. That, that. 01:00:37
Both unrealistic and maybe irresponsible. So adus to me even if we get. 01:00:46
A lot of them. 01:00:52
Seem like they'll still feel residential as opposed to saying let's build high rises. 01:00:53
And I would be willing to live in an Adu, but I don't want to live in a high rise. I have kids. I want access to a yard so it 01:00:58
feels like. 01:01:02
This is the kind of densification that I want as the resident of holiday. 01:01:07
Umm. 01:01:13
Because I would. I would be willing to live in a house with an Adu. I'd be willing to have an Adu if it were, you know, big 01:01:14
enough. 01:01:16
It seems like that's a nice way to keep it residential, to keep it so that owners are controlling who's in their Adu. 01:01:21
Umm. 01:01:30
While still being responsible and owning the growth that will happen in the in the Valley. 01:01:31
That's a really nice way to put it. I want to put it in another city. 01:01:37
Well I mean I think there's, I think there's space for different kinds of development. I think there are are lots of places that 01:01:44
we should and. 01:01:47
Have high rises, but I think that density itself is is not bad and to put it all somewhere else, I think it makes it less nice 01:01:52
density. 01:01:57
It does bring up one question which ties back to our favorite Planning Commission subject, which is the parking. 01:02:03
Right. I mean, you have these these sheds, these other things that now are accessory dwelling units, but they still have their 01:02:09
existing 1960s one, maybe two car driveway. Where do these new residents park? Right. And looking at some of the code so I could 01:02:17
bring some proposed options, some cities say that your parking for an Adu can't be tandem part. So if you'd like to see something 01:02:24
as specific as that, you could it would have to be, you know? 01:02:32
To the side of existing required garage spaces for. 01:02:40
For a primary structure. So there are ways to be specific about parking requirements for an external Adu. 01:02:43
So when you view an external Adu as. 01:02:50
I guess special privilege in some sense, right? Yes, you can be allowed this use, but there are impacts with that. 01:02:55
So thus with the impacts, we can put more specific requirements relating to those to those impacts. 01:03:03
I really love the idea of dealing with the tandem parking issue. 01:03:11
On the one across from the park and when we had that silly proposal about tandem parking with, you know, who's in front, who's in 01:03:17
back, you know, two different residents arguing over, you know, and waking each other up to go to work in the morning and that 01:03:23
and. 01:03:28
Yeah, I think it's time to address Tandem. 01:03:35
And I can look at that and see what existing code is in other cities on how they are managing that with external ads specifically. 01:03:39
Well, do you need any more feedback or input on this to be able to move forward with something to? 01:03:49
Feel pretty good at 8:45 at night, Yes, I think we're we're good on that. Our next meeting would be the 5th of December so we can 01:03:56
come back. That gives us a couple weeks to have some proposed text. 01:04:02
For these three text amendments. 01:04:09
OK, I had an item that I wanted to ask about. I was looking for Planning Commission dates because I couldn't find my 2023. 01:04:12
Handy dandy calendar. 01:04:23
And. 01:04:25
Couldn't find it anywhere on the city website, which it may be somewhere, but I couldn't find it easily and that brought to my 01:04:26
attention that the Planning Commission page is out of date. 01:04:32
Even more so, because now we have Mr. Barrett. 01:04:39
Who is also not on here, so I think it's time to get this updated and make sure that the calendar is available. 01:04:42
On the website so that when me planning commissioners can't find their meeting schedule. 01:04:54
Actually can somewhere, is that a reasonable? Aye, aye. Would you like a motion because we could do that for you. It's it's not 01:05:01
just the planning departments, it's out of date. Yeah. So yeah, and we are. So the city is updating the website overall right now. 01:05:08
So that is something that staff is working on is updating all the website. 01:05:15
Please make sure we have access to this and we don't have to like go find an agenda somewhere that. Yeah. And then just on the 01:05:24
note of calendars real quick. So thank you for providing the 2024. It was pointed out that in December we have two December nights 01:05:30
and two December 20 thirds on this draft. 01:05:36
There's there's a few months. There's more than that. Oh, there's more. OK, so I I have my circled copy of Dates to fix, so we'll 01:05:42
get those corrected, OK. 01:05:47
Cool. Excel loves different types of numbers, right? 01:05:52
OK, so December 5th is the next planned meeting then? Yes. OK. Could we also get a roster of? 01:05:57
Commission members. 01:06:05
With. 01:06:07
So with contact information, e-mail address, phone number, is that what you're asking? That would I would like that. That would be 01:06:07
great because we have each others emails from the e-mail stuff but not phone. 01:06:13
Yeah, yeah. 01:06:19
Yep, we can contact information sheets. 01:06:20
As long as we promise not to meet. 01:06:26
About us attacking each other. 01:06:32
No more than three of us can meet anywhere publicly, right? Or privately. OK. All right. Well, thank you very much, everyone. With 01:06:35
that, unless anything else is on the agenda. Motion to adjourn. All in favor, say aye. All right, Have a good night. 01:06:42
Happy Thanksgiving. 01:06:51
You. 01:06:53
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So if Carrie and Steph's ready to go, I think we'll do a recall to order here if everybody's all set and we will jump in with item 00:00:00
number six. 00:00:05
On our agenda, which is the subdivisions. 00:00:11
Topic Oh my gosh, this looks like fun. Is this carry that's going to be leading this discussion? This one goes to John. All right, 00:00:15
John, you're on the hot plate. Just so excited to talk about subdivision amendments. 00:00:21
So from the legislature hot off the legislators agendas. 00:00:29
This year was a discussion on how to create as many, you know, creating more properties, more homes to make that meet those two 00:00:34
ends of affordability and the having a product that. 00:00:40
Is accessible to municipalities. 00:00:46
One of the hurdles that was brought to the legislature by. 00:00:49
Specific groups was this process by which land is entitled. 00:00:53
Meaning, how fast do subdivisions get through planning commissions? 00:00:59
Specifically. 00:01:05
Looking at all the municipalities across the counties and in the state. 00:01:07
He was discovering that many processes are similar to ours. 00:01:11
Others only have one hearing. You know there were. 00:01:15
Types of processes and how many public hearings are. 00:01:19
And the development community was saying it's confusing. 00:01:23
Ess. 00:01:27
So this the state's mandate was to standardize. 00:01:28
So we have until February 1st to standardize our subdivision process. 00:01:32
Spec. 00:01:39
Moving away from a three-step process, which you're. 00:01:41
Concept of preliminary and a final. 00:01:44
You will no longer have a concept review. 00:01:49
That concept review will be to be a staff level or will roll into some of those elements into the preliminary level. 00:01:52
And some of the real technical items. 00:02:00
That are in the preliminary level of review will roll into a final review which is only available for staff. 00:02:03
That's the second part of this amendment. 00:02:09
Second part meaning. 00:02:12
Only this municipality has only three or four opportunities of review for a final plat. 00:02:15
4 rounds of back and forth with their engineering firm. 00:02:22
In order to get a preliminary final construction set which includes grading storm water retention utility. 00:02:25
Installation. 00:02:33
The nitty gritty that maybe the Planning Commission does not necessarily. 00:02:34
Interested in as far as a land use? 00:02:38
The engineering side and Public Works is interested. The utility companies are interested. 00:02:42
So the state is saying allow the applicant to have that conversation with staff. 00:02:48
At a reasonable rate, with four maximum reviews. 00:02:53
So no concept review that some of those elements will be rolled into a preliminary meeting, one meeting with the Planning 00:02:58
Commission, one hearing. 00:03:02
And that's where the entitlement happens. So after that preliminary review you'll be seeing. 00:03:08
Utility connections, but maybe not the details of the depths of where those pipes are grading. 00:03:14
The lot sizes, utility connection letters? Basically, can those two lots be serviced by? 00:03:20
Life safety, those types of elements making sure it meets the ordinance. 00:03:27
Having your hearing, see if there's any. 00:03:31
Situations and that needs to be addressed in the public. 00:03:34
And then it rolls into. 00:03:38
At staff only. 00:03:40
And so that's that, that's the the third element. 00:03:43
The 4th one is something that is kind of new to at least to holiday is an appeal process. 00:03:47
If after four reviews from a municipality. 00:03:56
The city and the applicant can agree on what is, whatever the element might be, a storm water retention facility type. 00:04:00
They have the ability to appeal that decision to a specific body. 00:04:08
That is made-up by professionals in the field. 00:04:13
And it goes from there. 00:04:18
Highly likely the city of holiday maintenance will never get to that point, but from the larger cities and huge subdivisions that 00:04:21
are plotting 80 to 100 lots, it could be a feasible scenario. But we need to establish the process anyway. 00:04:28
So that's in that ordinance amendment in a nutshell. 00:04:36
The state of Utah is funding various. 00:04:41
To allow municipalities to be counseled on this type of amendment to make sure. 00:04:46
Just like our moderate income housing plan, it has to meet a certain standard and it has to be basically approved. 00:04:53
Luckily, our legal counsel is on that list, so we're going to be getting some free counsel from at least them. So that's why we're 00:04:59
waiting. 00:05:05
Before we get into draft what that amendment and what that actually looks like so that we can have it reviewed. 00:05:11
For compliance with the state law. 00:05:16
And I think in your packet I included what that state law language. 00:05:19
It's a red line. It's a Senate bill. 174 is very huge, but there's just an excerpt that we've taken out that deals with 00:05:23
subdivisions. 00:05:28
So basically, yeah, I don't blame you. 00:05:34
We'll be matching that as much as we possibly can word. 00:05:37
But what it means is our ordinance will be. 00:05:41
Affected greatly. You can see that there's four chapters or 4 sections. 00:05:47
In the title where Subdivision process? 00:05:51
Is addressed, so a good thing it'll be truncated the process, it'll be easier to understand for the applicant. 00:05:54
And you won't be having these long drawn out meetings for subdivisions. 00:06:03
Just to just to verify compliance. 00:06:09
So all around I think it's a decent amendment that we are required to make. 00:06:12
And as we get further into it, I think it'll make me become more. 00:06:18
So will we. 00:06:23
We have a clear understanding of like what's I mean it sounds like it's going to be fairly large and its impact for. 00:06:25
The pre work we have to do to study for approval or you know discussion on some of these things. 00:06:33
And obviously we, I can't speak for the Commission, but I mean, I trust that you're going to go in and rewrite it exactly to what 00:06:40
the state says and do it in the most sensible way possible. But are we going to have some kind of recursive training of like, OK, 00:06:45
here's what you're actually going to do and this is what's everything that's changed now and here's the things you need to look 00:06:50
at. 00:06:54
Yeah, we'll definitely review it. And then we have the process, because the process has to be written and that'll be your. 00:07:00
Chapter 8. So your process is written in there very clearly when you're supposed to hold a hearing. 00:07:06
When the applicant has the responsibility to respond to the staff's comments. 00:07:12
It's pretty black and white in that section, so when we go through that. 00:07:17
Hopefully it'll be it'll be clear as to what your responsibilities will be. 00:07:20
The hope, but at that point you'll just see now that we have a public hearing at the preliminary level. 00:07:25
The list of items that we're going to see will be sort of a combination of preliminary and concept. 00:07:31
But maybe not so much the technical side. 00:07:37
And you can leave the technical sides to our engineering department or public. 00:07:40
To have them go back and forth with the engineering side. 00:07:44
To get a drawing that is acceptable to the city. 00:07:49
And. 00:07:54
I always mess up the order. I'm sorry. Is the the concept where the the tree review is or is that in the final? 00:07:56
That will be preliminary. That'll be a preliminary. Thank you. So it's a good thing we're combining because I mess them up. 00:08:03
Anyway, this concept right now is really, does it comply with the zone? Do you have lot sizes that are right and can those? 00:08:09
Or more lots be serviced by utilities. 00:08:15
And then parking is going to be somewhere in there as well still or if it's like a multi family project or multi use project, yes 00:08:19
parking will be in there because that's that's his own compliance issue. 00:08:25
And I forgot there's another element that. 00:08:33
That is going to be a policy question that I think that our Council is going to have to make a final decision on. 00:08:38
One that you can recommend to them. 00:08:45
Is that and this occurred several years ago, we just haven't adopted it yet. 00:08:47
One and two lot subdivisions are not required to go to your land use. 00:08:53
One in two lot subdivisions can be done administratively. 00:08:57
By. 00:09:01
It's always been the policy by holiday City Council to review those about the land use authority in this body. 00:09:03
So we are going to bring that to the Planning Commission and then also City Council, see what they think about. 00:09:10
Leaving 2 lot subdivisions. 00:09:17
Just to staff as a staff review and. 00:09:19
Anything more than that, 2-3 lots. 00:09:23
A multifamily condos multi multi use projects will obviously go to the land use authority. 00:09:26
But those two lot subdivisions? 00:09:34
Most cities don't take to their Planning Commission. 00:09:36
And are those noticed? 00:09:40
Yeah, they'll follow a different notice. So what will happen is the the site will be posted. 00:09:43
And then they'll have, we'll take a 10 day comment period. If there's anything that's really abnormal shows up, then we'll bring 00:09:48
it to the Planning Commission for review. 00:09:53
Otherwise, after that 10 day, we'll just follow through with our own preliminary concept and final platinum process. 00:09:58
But it won't be in this venue, it'll just be at administrative level. 00:10:04
And. 00:10:09
Will there when it's noticed, whether it's still a budding properties and neighbors will be noticed up to 500 feet or whatever, 00:10:11
right? 00:10:14
Yeah, that's another element that I'm pretty sure that their council would like to preserve is the is the noticing and hearing. 00:10:20
But instead of it actually being a hearing where people come say I don't want it in my backyard, it'll just be send your comments 00:10:28
to staff and they'll say thanks, send it to Kerry and beat her up and find out what exactly needs to if it if it's actually a 00:10:34
substantive comment that needs to be addressed by the Planning Commission rather than staff in in in an open meeting. 00:10:40
Not in my department behind you know, closed doors, so to speak. 00:10:47
Other questions? 00:10:56
Mr. Tierlink. 00:10:58
Upcoming changes We're all excited to learn new. 00:11:00
It's just getting figured out, right? 00:11:03
Too. 00:11:07
Well, as long as you guys guide us through the process, I'm sure it'll be great. Well, we're learning with. 00:11:09
So we'll figure it out. We'll just remember to have meetings when we're supposed to have meetings. You can just kick the chair on 00:11:14
that one. 00:11:17
All right. Well then with that any, if there's no other questions on that, then we'll look forward to the proposed changes coming 00:11:20
to a meeting to you soon and move on to. 00:11:25
OK, so item number 7, Ordinance discussion about home occupations. Conditional use permits that are involved with home 00:11:33
occupations. 00:11:38
Business licensing, parking, kind of everything that is within the purview of or involved with a home occupation. So Speaking of 00:11:43
fewer meetings. 00:11:48
The proposal is to take the conditional use that's associated with a home occupation and create a set list of conditions that are 00:11:54
applied to all home occupation permits. 00:12:01
In our review process, as you've seen with. 00:12:10
Home occupations that that you have reviewed, it's typically very similar conditions. 00:12:12
Imposed by, you know, specifics of parking has to all be on the site. 00:12:20
Limited hours. If there's groups, you know what? How does drop off and pick up? How is that managed? So it's including those and 00:12:26
making sure those are included within the list of conditions. 00:12:32
And you can be as specific or more general as you want, imposing those. 00:12:39
And or allowing staff to impose conditions that are specifically relevant to the application. 00:12:46
Some of those are outlined in the table that is in the staff report. 00:12:55
So going through those, some of the changes are more minor housekeeping items, changing the table of allowed uses. 00:13:01
Home occupation changing approval by the Planning Commission to approval of by staff with conditions. 00:13:12
Umm. 00:13:18
Putting. 00:13:20
You could consider separating out the impact of home occupations. So daycares, preschools, group lessons might be a higher impact 00:13:23
because of the amount of of people coming to the site. So you could put a limitation or you know define low versus high impact, 00:13:30
what is high impact, what is low impact? That's something that we could look into if that is something that the Planning 00:13:37
Commission would like to see and some proposed text. 00:13:45
The another issue that. 00:13:55
That we were looking at is with the involvement of accessory buildings or yard space. Our current code does not allow the use of 00:13:59
yard space or accessory buildings. 00:14:05
The production of things can occur in those, but the actual conducting of the business has to occur within the primary dwelling. 00:14:10
As we looked at this, it was you know, if somebody has created an accessory building or want to use part of a detached garage, or 00:14:19
build a detached structure that is just for their office purposes. 00:14:26
Being able to allow that within specific conditions. 00:14:35
So that is a consideration that that you can discuss. 00:14:38
Parking. 00:14:42
Currently our code refers to our off stripe or on site parking requirements which requires 2 for business use based off of any 00:14:44
businesses. The same standard for home occupations and the same standard for any business use within commercial zones I. 00:14:54
Professional office zones. 00:15:06
A proposed change on that would be to allow the use of 1 off or one street parking space directly abutting the the residents. 00:15:09
That suggestion came from a review of looking at. 00:15:20
Liberties. 00:15:27
They had some proposed code. 00:15:29
Suggesting that you could evolve. 00:15:31
And the link between that is a normal residential use, so residential uses typically you'd see on street parking allowed. 00:15:35
Or guests would have on street parking, so allowing your home occupation to involve one on street parking space. 00:15:44
So that would be a consideration that you could look. 00:15:52
Other than that, your specific condition could be that all parking associated with the business. 00:15:56
Involves. 00:16:01
The property itself. 00:16:03
And that one street or or it could just be all managed on site. So taking out the required two and just saying it's all managed 00:16:05
within the property. Carrie, I'm curious. 00:16:10
With the like for example, the parking changes, right? 00:16:17
Would there be consideration given to the different master plans? For example, I could see. 00:16:22
Saying allowing street parking in the Village would be a much bigger deal than allowing street parking in an R110 in the North 40 00:16:29
of Holiday where you know people are parked on the street. 00:16:35
Anyway, you know what I mean, Yeah. 00:16:41
And that could be a zone consideration. 00:16:46
If you wanted. 00:16:49
And I don't know, John, maybe you'd have a suggestion on how that could be addressed or if that would be. 00:16:51
A good consideration to include differe. 00:17:00
Working requirements based off of the zone, sure. So for example, you can definitely have a percentage of what's allowed the off 00:17:03
street or on street parking or off site. 00:17:08
In the village you have, we have I think a minimum of 10% of your minimum required can be. 00:17:15
Used as the yarn St. stalls that are in front. 00:17:21
It's very difficult for a municipality to defend the fact. 00:17:25
If you have a home based. 00:17:29
You those clients can't use a public St. to park in front of their house, whereas. 00:17:32
Other guests could. 00:17:37
I think we want to make sure we put the city in a good position to not to be defensible. 00:17:40
On whether or not that requirement is being placed on applicants. 00:17:47
To have the requirement for off street parking. 00:17:51
Whether that's a percentage you can have or a certain time of the day, you know those are the type of scenarios we might be 00:17:55
looking at. If on street parking was an option, that's that's now considered by Planning Commission and City Council. 00:18:01
Come. 00:18:09
Yeah, I have a bit of a concern with the whole idea that many people already have the the parking in front of their houses, their 00:18:10
parking. 00:18:14
And that they have exclusive control of it. And that and practice I've seen in another community where people put cones in their 00:18:19
front of their home so that only people they want to park in their part of the public street can park. 00:18:27
In that and whether or not if you allow say one of the two parking spaces to be an off St. and yours is already full does that now 00:18:36
your neighbor you can park in front of the neighbors house and then they come out and say no I got a party to say and you know I 00:18:42
mean. 00:18:48
I think it's a dangerous thing to start down this idea that the public owns. 00:18:54
In any way, whether it's for Hallmark or guests or whatever the parking in front of their house, it's just street parking. 00:18:59
And then but you know I I think it's worthy of the discussion and and looking at it but I you know I'm I'm a little concerned that 00:19:08
that reinforces the idea that the parking in front of your house is your control, absolute control of of that. 00:19:16
And you could I mean it. 00:19:26
An option would be to just not detail any of the not restricting on street parking at all if there's street parking available, 00:19:28
people who are coming to the house for business purposes as long as it's a low impact. So if you're looking at dividing low and 00:19:36
high impact, maybe all of low impact is. 00:19:43
You know you can park on site. You have to. 00:19:51
Parking provided on site. 00:19:54
If there is some street parking, it would be one car at a time. 00:19:56
So something like that that restricts some degree of parking, but isn't so specific about it's the one spot in front of your 00:20:00
house. 00:20:05
And for your code enforcement people, this becomes a very problematic thing about you know, OK, how do you prove which purpose 00:20:11
that car is there? 00:20:16
You. 00:20:21
It's real easy when you see the cello getting pulled out of the back of it. 00:20:22
You have. 00:20:27
You know this is not a public hearing, so but and that related to that, I did have a thought because of what happened earlier and 00:20:31
that I do think we need to think about if the home walk is in a apartment complex which is different than a condominium, which is 00:20:40
different than a residential community. 00:20:48
And they have single homes, and there may be unique things for each of those. 00:20:58
And one would be an interesting legal question about, you know, if it runs with the land OK and it comes in an apartment. 00:21:04
And we don't have the owner of the apartment asking for. 00:21:11
We have a. 00:21:15
A renter? 00:21:17
In that condominium, obviously different how you got an owner. 00:21:18
But unit 229 if I remember the number you 2229. So I want to move into a complex. 00:21:22
And I don't want to go through a process, so I buy 229 because it already has. I just think that those, at least those three kinds 00:21:29
of housing have some very unique. 00:21:35
Considerations independent of HOA rules and all that. Mm-hmm. And that, that. 00:21:41
Are worthy at looking at as we we review this there there is. That's a good point and I I think it'll require some work to figure 00:21:48
out what the right solution is given. 00:21:53
These different communities, but one way you can get at. 00:21:59
Is to tie with the home occupation business. 00:22:03
That runs with the land business license requirement. That doesn't run with the land. 00:22:08
And if the business license ceases to exist at the location, then. 00:22:14
Permitted. 00:22:19
Or conditional use ceases to exist at the location that would be good and they they're kind of tied together. 00:22:21
And then similarly the business license gives you the right to. 00:22:28
The property from time to time when they go for a renewal. 00:22:33
So for those difficult, code enforcement matters where you're limited because you cannot enter a home. 00:22:36
Look at traffic counts or do those kinds of things. It gives you a. 00:22:44
To go in and inspect. 00:22:48
I know we're not talking about ad use, but if you had. 00:22:49
Adus or things like that, you know, that's a good tool that can help you get at some of those issues. 00:22:53
Yeah. 00:23:00
And do you envision if it becomes an administrative process through staff, there would still be public notice? 00:23:01
Because. 00:23:11
One of the things I've noticed and this this woman tonight was a good example. 00:23:12
We don't know enough about the situation that the neighbors know lots of things. 00:23:17
Some of which are true and some of which aren't, but at least at least. 00:23:22
You know, tell us what is something that should be subject. 00:23:28
Or may be subject to a conditional use. 00:23:31
And we keep calling it a conditional use, but if there's no public input, it's. 00:23:35
Unless, you know, we figure out ferret it out on our own, which really isn't our job. 00:23:40
You know and that. So I as we go through this, if it becomes administrative process, would there still be a noticing requirement? 00:23:44
I think there is a value to that. 00:23:49
Yeah. And the, I mean the purpose of a conditional use is to mitigate impact on surrounding properties. So it's to look at what 00:23:55
that impact is. Some of those impacts may not be immediately foreseeable and that I guess that's a question that for a legal 00:24:01
counsel could. 00:24:07
Noticing be a requirement still without having a public hearing. 00:24:14
Where you just take comments. 00:24:19
The way that we want to take address this is finding. 00:24:22
Home occupation uses that have been routine and uncontested in the past. 00:24:27
Because those standards have pretty much been standardized. 00:24:31
As years have passed and applications keeps coming on and all the same conditions get applied to. 00:24:35
You know the weird circumstances, the odd ducks, so to speak, that would come to the Planning Commission would would be noticed. 00:24:41
Like, for example, a home occupation in a condo complex. 00:24:49
Or some odd. 00:24:53
Home occupation or business that's being run out of a home that we've never seen before, Those are not routine and they could 00:24:55
possibly be contested as well. So those, those definitely would have a hearing applied to them. 00:25:01
For sure. 00:25:08
But for those others that are. 00:25:09
Music lessons? 00:25:12
You know the the home based therapist. 00:25:14
We know what those conditions have been applied or in the past we can pretty much standardize. 00:25:18
As long as they comply with those standards themselves. 00:25:23
Great. They can get their business license and go. 00:25:27
If they can't, then they can bring, come bring it to the Planning Commission with a hearing and find out what those those issues 00:25:30
are. 00:25:32
But you're absolutely right. You know, the hearing process is critical for that fact finding. 00:25:36
So it's just to kind of summarize. So really what you're looking for is like take the ones that pretty much no one can test that 00:25:44
we approve all the time and we ask a couple questions about parking and just say city staff can handle those from now on. We don't 00:25:50
need to go through all the rings of fire for planning and everybody else for these applicants. 00:25:57
And in. 00:26:03
And what and in which zone you're comfortable with? Yeah. 00:26:05
Makes. 00:26:10
Any other questions? 00:26:14
Lessening our workload. 00:26:17
Let's go ahead and move on to the next one. 00:26:24
Don't. 00:26:30
And then I guess on that note too with these discussions, if you have any points that you would like staff to go the direction and 00:26:32
so those items of discussion. 00:26:37
Where What kind of drafted text would you like to see? 00:26:43
So just a. 00:26:48
In this case, how specific or more general? 00:26:50
Are you talking about in regards to? 00:26:55
Just how much? 00:26:58
Approves on them like or if there's any specific conditions that you want to have included. 00:27:00
I mean I think the on site parking is relevant. 00:27:06
In a lot of cases, I mean, especially after tonight's discussion, I think we kind of went through that, right? 00:27:10
I. 00:27:18
Depending on your number of clients and you know those type of situations on sites not. 00:27:19
Unreasonable request. 00:27:26
So I think that's still something that needs to be considered because like. 00:27:29
In a lot of cases, like am I worried about someone with cello lessons, right? Parking on the street and dropping their kid off to 00:27:35
cello? 00:27:38
Not really. 00:27:42
But what happens when it's a giant moving van that's parking on the street as part of some business? Because that's what they 00:27:43
drive and now all of a sudden it's a problem. You know what I mean? 00:27:50
Landscape Trailer every night. 00:28:00
Yeah. 00:28:03
Those type of things I think is where you start to get kind of a rye on that. Yeah. Some of those more specific things with larger 00:28:05
vehicles are naturally restricted in our code where you can't have vehicles larger than. 00:28:12
110 John Hart for longer than an hour. 00:28:19
I like this idea of. 00:28:27
Having low impact versus high impact. 00:28:29
Sort of. 00:28:33
Looking at the correlation between what the impact is and. 00:28:36
How? How dense or or what zone it's in because? 00:28:40
I mean to me it doesn't make a lot of sense if you are only going to have one person to your home based business at a time. To 00:28:45
require 2 on site parkings like that, that doesn't make sense and that's. 00:28:50
Restricting a lot of people who should not be restricted I think in having their business. So I'm I'm in favor of making the 00:28:55
parking more flexible sort of as as this is. 00:29:01
Suggesting here lowering it for in circumstances where it makes sense to have a lower minimum. 00:29:07
And then in places where it's more dense, we still want people to be able to have businesses even if they live in a condo, so. 00:29:16
Umm. 00:29:25
You know, figuring, figuring that out, how how are we going to let them do that? I think that's reasonable. 00:29:27
We have a lot of parking lots. 00:29:33
I think we should. 00:29:37
Use. 00:29:39
You know and. 00:29:41
Be as restricted as we have. So I think that combination. 00:29:43
Is good thinking about impact and. 00:29:48
With the parking, the prohibited uses, can you just talk about that one again it looks like. 00:29:50
Don't have prohibited uses. 00:29:58
And this is making suggestions about things that. 00:30:02
May not want people to do in their home based businesses. Is that is that a correct reading of that right? 00:30:05
So. 00:30:11
There were a couple of cities that call out specific uses in that home occupation section of uses that are expressly not allowed. 00:30:13
So example. 00:30:18
Salons with multiple employees. So if you have like 2 salon people, so then they're seeing multiple clients at a time. 00:30:25
Kennels, commercial stables. These are pretty. 00:30:33
Or just much larger impact? 00:30:36
Home occupations that could occur. 00:30:39
You could include these or any other specifics that that you could see as potentially being an issue or we could incorporate just 00:30:42
a general provision that any uses outside of a normal customary use would require review by Planning Commission. 00:30:51
Just in the short time I've been on the Commission, we've seen. 00:31:04
Instances. 00:31:09
Neighbors tend to bleed before they're cut. 00:31:11
You know, we get a lot of complaints from people who anticipate problems before there's even. 00:31:16
Any action. 00:31:24
And. 00:31:26
I think we have to be sensitive to that and. 00:31:27
We can't head everything off at the pass. I think we just have to. 00:31:31
Understand that people don't like change. 00:31:36
And to Angela's point, we want to be welcoming and friendly to business. 00:31:40
I I like your description of the. 00:31:46
Us. 00:31:49
That would fall outside of. 00:31:52
Types of activities would have to be reviewed, however it was you said that that sounded a reasonable way to try and split the. 00:31:55
You know, split the difference between. 00:32:03
Prescribing everything that is allowed and everything that's not allowed. 00:32:05
In a more workable way. 00:32:10
It would not be appropriate for me to make the policy judgment. 00:32:13
Is for you all. 00:32:17
But there are certain categories of uses that are just dangerous if they're in a home environment. 00:32:19
And I would encourage you to look at the list that they put together. The firearms 1 catches my eye, that's for sure. And. 00:32:27
Issues you'll get into are dry cleaning businesses that use in store chemicals, firearms. You know, there are certain categories 00:32:36
of things where I think you pretty easily can say we never want this to occur. 00:32:42
There's a middle category of things where. 00:32:48
Maybe you'll want to see it and apply some jud. 00:32:51
But I. 00:32:55
There are some things where you will want to list, otherwise it becomes difficult to defend it when when you deny that use or that 00:32:57
application. 00:33:01
Sample that kind of comes to mind might be. 00:33:06
Somebody that's running a paint and Body Shop out of their two car detached a garage and they have air compressors and grinders 00:33:09
and right. The smell of paints in in you know introduced to the neighborhood, you know. 00:33:16
Or the like the firearms or. Or the firearms. Grenades. Yeah. In the basement. Never go off. Yeah, yeah. 00:33:24
Archery centers. 00:33:32
As far as like allowing on street parking, if it were to go that way with certain uses, 1 consideration I would want to see in 00:33:35
there would be the number of. 00:33:41
Allowed conditional uses on a street or adjacent in a certain neighborhood. 00:33:47
Because, for example, I live on a street that has 15 houses of 10 of my neighbors decided they all wanted a conditional use permit 00:33:52
to do cello lessons. 00:33:56
I would be very. 00:34:00
Coming down my street at the hours of drop off and pick up of all my neighbors doing it at once. 00:34:02
I'm on a street right now where I know they don't have conditional use permits, but there's three home based businesses. 00:34:10
All within. 00:34:17
Less than an eighth of a mile of my home. 00:34:18
And when they're having their parties every Friday night. 00:34:21
It's so crazy you can't even get one car down the drive or down the street, let alone pass the car. 00:34:26
And that becomes a safety issue. It becomes, you know, an issue where if we're allowing every home on a street to have a home 00:34:33
based business and on street parking. 00:34:38
I didn't purchase my home to live in a business district, right? Yeah, And that's one of the elements that's already currently 00:34:43
written in ordinance. 00:34:48
You can. 00:34:54
Or exert your authority to deny a conditional use permit if there is. 00:34:56
And I don't know exactly what the language is. Something like an unusual concentration? 00:35:01
Of those types of uses within and, it gives a. 00:35:06
I've never really ran into that before. 00:35:11
But yes, that type of that notion is in there is in the court already, OK. 00:35:14
Just looking into the crystal ball, I'm sure there's not 12 piano teachers on one street right now, but you never know. The only 00:35:19
situation where I've run into that being an issue is where you have home based business applications. 00:35:25
Residences that are near schools. 00:35:32
If the drop off and pick up time for the home based business is the same as the school, then you get the crush all at once. 00:35:35
Those. 00:35:43
I don't know what you call them in your code, but the accumulation of impacts all at the same time becomes an issue. 00:35:45
Yeah. 00:35:52
And we most likely hear about that from neighbors who know the schedule. Remember the one we had with? 00:35:53
Hairdresser and they wanted to keep the. 00:36:02
Not have them open. Wireless alleyway was being used for the school. 00:36:05
Which was, you know, the school is now closed. So you know, we and we knew that and they they probably should have known that too. 00:36:09
But. 00:36:13
You only hear about those things from the immediate neighbors who know the flow of the neighborhood. 00:36:19
A consideration on that too with it is one of the bullet points. So parking that exceeds the parking that is available on the. 00:36:25
Possibly involving that one extra street parking in front of the house or one street parking space in general. So putting a 00:36:34
limitation on how often that type of exceedance can occur so it can't exceed more than two times in a month or more than two times 00:36:41
in a 30 day period, whatever that. 00:36:48
What would be reasonable? 00:36:56
For exceedance. 00:36:59
I feel like that might be a challenge for code enforcement, though, right? Like you'd have to have a neighbor. That's like 00:37:03
recording the comings and goings, basically. Yeah, And a lot of, a lot of the. 00:37:07
Conditional use issues, when it does come to code enforcement and what it creates an issue is then when Planning Commission would 00:37:14
look at it or the Community and Economic Development Director would look at it and say OK we need to evaluate your conditions 00:37:19
here. I I do think it is reasonable to say something like. 00:37:25
Yes, it may happen once or twice a month, but more than that is could be considered an unreasonable. 00:37:31
Imposition on the neighbors. 00:37:39
We may not hit the right number right off the bat, but if you don't pick a number. 00:37:43
How? 00:37:49
See if it's the right number or not right. 00:37:50
So creating a standard. 00:37:53
Clear. We communicated. 00:37:56
Mr. Barrett. 00:38:03
Any any thoughts? You're awfully quiet down there, yeah. 00:38:04
Taking it all in, I think it's a good idea to do this type of code. Give staff some authority on these things where the Commission 00:38:08
I, you know, where the law already sets out the standards and if they can meet that, that that should be them. Go ahead and get 00:38:13
started. 00:38:18
I My biggest concern here is how we define what neighborhood traffic is anymore, because I think wasn't the. 00:38:24
Standard 10 vehicle trips per day per residence. 00:38:33
So, but there used to be a or there is a standard for how many vehicles can come to your house. 00:38:39
And beyond that is an increase in neighborhood traffic. Well, I know now that I have several 100. 00:38:45
You know, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks that are going down, that are changing by that dynamic of neighborhood traffic. 00:38:55
I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this point, but I'm just I'm concerned about the traffic and the parking. 00:39:03
I don't want to create a law or rules that we can't have some logical. 00:39:11
Effective enforcement. 00:39:16
You know, and so the clearer we can make this, the better I. 00:39:20
I wish I had a better suggestion than that, but I appreciate what the other Commissioners have said because I think that's on 00:39:25
point. 00:39:29
I know that businesses are going to become more sophisticated in the future because. 00:39:34
It's becoming more logical for people to stay at home and do their business and how that all factors, so we may have to have. 00:39:39
An ordinance that can be modified quickly to meet those kind of demands or? 00:39:48
Expect. 00:39:54
Good discussion. Any other? 00:39:59
Thoughts or points around the conditional use text amendment. 00:40:02
Moving right along. 00:40:08
Accessory Dwelling. 00:40:11
Last item. OK, so. 00:40:12
You'll remember our Rezone application that involved an accessory dwelling unit. It wasn't. 00:40:17
It was underneath a detached garage. It was on a lot that was less than 8000 square feet after the public dedication. 00:40:25
Label typically as a bonus room. That might be something that you'd see as, oh, we have a shed that's converted to an office space 00:40:35
or shed that's converted to some sort of. 00:40:41
Neighbor or some sort of alternate use. That's that somebody may want to convert to a accessory dwelling unit. So taking that shed 00:40:48
or some space into. 00:40:53
Making it a habitable space. 00:40:59
So City Council did not approve that rezone, but directed staff to look at our Adu ordinance, and specifically. 00:41:03
Allowing the conversion of existing accessory buildings. So if you have a detached garage or if you have a shed. 00:41:13
What kind of a code? 00:41:23
Change would then allow somebody to convert that accessory dwelling or accessory building into a dwelling unit. 00:41:26
So right now our code does not allow external dwelling units on lots that are less than half an acre or that are twice the the 00:41:34
minimum lot size. 00:41:39
John, is it that they can't rent that so they could still create? 00:41:47
Some sort of habitable space in an accessory unit, but they couldn't rent it. 00:41:52
OK. 00:41:58
With the current code. 00:42:00
OK. And I think the way that we proceed is written is that. 00:42:04
To the. 00:42:09
To be used. 00:42:13
Accessory standards. 00:42:18
So I could turn. 00:42:25
Would there be restrictions on how many? Like for example if I had a shed and a greenhouse in my backyard which I do, could I make 00:42:27
2 accessory dwelling units? No our code limits and accessory dwelling unit. You can only have one on the property so that could be 00:42:33
interior or or an external. 00:42:39
So in this particular case, were they looking for a way to let this person have what they've denied him, we denied him? 00:42:48
Or they really think that they want to open up the whole city. 00:42:56
It's a larger they looked at. 00:43:01
As a way. 00:43:06
Address some of our moderate income housing goals, one of those being remove restrictions around accessory dwelling units. 00:43:10
So looking at what our current code is, how restrictive is it? What changes could be made to that to meet that moderate income 00:43:18
housing goal? 00:43:22
And thus allow the creation of more accessory dwelling units. 00:43:27
And I'm in. 00:43:31
Increasing the ability to have moderate but what we tend to approve. 00:43:34
Taking 2000 square foot guest houses and make them into 5000 square foot, which doesn't help the moderate. 00:43:39
You know, it's almost like. 00:43:48
The people with the money to build these huge things. 00:43:50
Where? 00:43:54
The the changes to allow moderate. 00:43:57
Housing. 00:44:01
The goal isn't being met. 00:44:04
True, it's being met. It's being met by taking big places on expensive properties and creating a house that's not moderately 00:44:07
priced. 00:44:11
Those that you that you see that go through that process are pretty small subset to what Kerry reviews and approves at the counter 00:44:16
for accessory buildings. 00:44:21
That's why they're coming to you is because they're they're abnormality. 00:44:25
In the area there might be conditions that have to be applied to that large of a structure. 00:44:29
Umm. 00:44:35
It's. 00:44:36
I would say maybe one or two a year. 00:44:37
Maybe 3 come to the Planning Commission but opposed to maybe. 00:44:39
15 or so a year accessory dwelling units. 00:44:43
Reviewed. 00:44:47
Another thing we commonly see is just people who would like to build a detached garage and maybe add a unit above it or you know, 00:44:48
off the back of it. So there are people who are wanting to build accessory dwelling units that are detached and separate from the 00:44:55
house. I'm usually associated with a detached garage some. 00:45:02
There is. 00:45:10
There's a lot more movement in the building community to have modular homes. So you'll see like modular units that are one or two 00:45:12
bedrooms that can just be placed on a house. They're designed to be less expensive to construct, less expensive to put in place. 00:45:19
More approachable for for homeowners, especially owners who own smaller properties that maybe want something a little bit smaller. 00:45:26
Is there a minimum size that these would have to be like? I mean, for example, could I take my 20 by 10 greenhouse space and say 00:45:34
it's a tiny home? 00:45:39
You could. There's an accessory. Buildings have a set footprint size. 00:45:45
Minimum size is 200 square feet. 00:45:53
That's I think that. 00:45:56
Yeah, yeah. External dwelling units, there's a minimum size of 200 square feet. I mean, there's barely room for a toilet in that, 00:45:58
but yeah. 00:46:02
Can I ask you a question about the? 00:46:07
The Is there a difference with setbacks and separation from the main structure between accessory buildings and Adus? There is our 00:46:09
code. 00:46:14
States that you have to have a 25% increase in your set back distance if it involves A dwelling unit. 00:46:21
Less. 00:46:30
And that's where you run into some conflict with existing accessory structures. So existing accessory structures are built to 1 00:46:32
standard. 00:46:36
And converting that to a dwelling unit has a different standard. 00:46:42
So the the standard that it was built under would apply. So you're going to end up with some. 00:46:47
Accessory structures that are converted that have the setbacks required for an accessory building, but not the setbacks that would 00:46:54
be required for a new structure or a new dwelling unit. OK And is there a maximum size that the Adu can be? 00:47:02
In comparison to the primary. 00:47:13
So our code has accessory buildings, limited footprint, size, that's the accessory, but not Adus. We don't have, are they the 00:47:18
same? OK, OK. 00:47:23
So that would limit the size of your 5000 square foot. 00:47:29
In most cases, I guess right we do have you can't apply for a conditional use permit. Is that just on guest houses, John? Or is 00:47:34
it? 00:47:38
So you can apply for a conditional use permit for any accessory building that you're proposing to be over the permitted size. 00:47:45
So that would be like the RV garage that they wanted to add on. It was over the larger or over the footprint size? 00:47:53
Add. 00:48:01
So this would be a concern I guess in in looking forward to if this were something that were to happen, but. 00:48:02
If I have a garage right, and it's at the far corner of my backyard, right long driveway, we've seen these old pioneer style 00:48:10
houses down and you know Garfield 13 S area. 00:48:16
But if I decide I want to build an apartment above that garage and call it and you know, a dwelling unit like is there still going 00:48:24
to be restrictions on height and things like that or am I like building this tower that's going to look down on all the neighbors 00:48:31
backyards from that point forward? Exactly. So our building permit process, you do have a graduated height requirement. 00:48:38
So that's created by going 8 feet up and then a 45 degree angle over. 00:48:45
Most structures that are 20 feet or less, just depending on how close they are to the property line if you want. 00:48:51
Our accessory structures are limited to 20 feet in height. 00:48:59
If you're 20, if you're 3 feet off the property line, you may have to come back further away to meet your graduated high 00:49:04
requirements, just depending on how that. 00:49:09
Building is constructed so they could build the tower, but they'd have to build it further into the yard. 00:49:15
So are you looking? 00:49:22
Our comments on the proposed changes that we eliminate. 00:49:24
Twice the size and also at least 1/2 acre, so that yes that is one option so. 00:49:29
Kind of a series of options you could. 00:49:37
You could limit it to just saying code change to. 00:49:41
Allowing the conversion of existing structures that are on lots that are smaller than half an acre or lots that don't meet that 00:49:45
twice the minimum. 00:49:51
Lot size required in. 00:49:57
So that's one option. 00:49:59
If you wanted to. 00:50:01
Eliminates. 00:50:04
The half acre minimum lot size or twice the both of those requirements and allow external dwelling units to be built on lots 00:50:09
smaller than. 00:50:15
Than half an acre, that would be another option. 00:50:21
Can I ask a question on that as far as the history? Are you seeing a lot of requests? 00:50:26
That are bumping up into this twice the size and half acre minimum. 00:50:31
Or I the I mean, does it really hurt if we just eliminate that language and? 00:50:37
If they can fit the building in the property based on the setbacks, they could do it. 00:50:44
And that's where if you wanted to create some more limitations. 00:50:49
For. 00:50:54
Mitigating impacts of if you're going to have an external dwelling. 00:50:55
Maybe it can't have a door that is on a side property line. The door would have to be inside the property. 00:50:59
Another common thing is Windows facing. You know or. 00:51:08
Having to have landscaping or fencing that that buffers from neighboring properties, or requiring larger setback distances so you 00:51:14
could. 00:51:20
Set back your accessory dwelling. 00:51:25
Further from the property lines. 00:51:28
There's some cities that require external dwelling units to be within the setbacks required for a primary structure. 00:51:31
So that could be an option as well. 00:51:40
If you wanted to bring anything that's an accessory dwelling unit external into those. 00:51:43
Required setbacks for a. 00:51:48
I. 00:51:51
For me personally, I would prefer it be the existing conversion rather than the let's let loose and everybody on the street builds 00:51:52
a guest house in the backyard and an R110 where the lots are 8000 square feet. 00:52:00
I could see a whole bunch of tiny homes crowding out real fast, and there's your moderate income. But at the same time, at what 00:52:07
cost do you do that right? Well, whatever is most respectful for the existing residents, right? You know, whatever is most 00:52:13
respectful for the neighbors. 00:52:20
I think I agree with that. 00:52:26
We saw. 00:52:29
In cases where they had an existing and newer home that had just been built and. 00:52:34
Couldn't call it rented or something. Everything problem. 00:52:39
Because it was on two small smalls, a lot and then two of the neighbors also they wanted it rezoned because those two neighbors 00:52:44
also wanted to build accessory dwelling unit. 00:52:49
That would have been a lot. I mean that. 00:52:57
Tripled, right, the residency in that little area on that little St. with small lots as opposed to if this, what we're talking 00:52:59
about happened then the one would have already been built in there and maybe the other one converts his garage, right? 00:53:07
But it doesn't create new buildings because they were wanting to build new buildings, right? 00:53:17
So and feel much more comfortable in doing that. 00:53:23
So they they can still build buildings and they can still build. 00:53:28
External Dwelling Units. 00:53:35
They just. 00:53:37
Rent them. Is that the distinction? No, they. They. 00:53:39
Did they have more than twice the lot size for those lots? No. That was the issue. They were trying to rezone it because they were 00:53:43
trying to so most of those properties in that area and largely for most R110 zones in the city. 00:53:51
We have neighborhoods which we call super conforming. 00:53:59
They're more than the minimum R110 zone. 00:54:02
So not enough to subdivide but. 00:54:05
Too small to plow. You know that type of situation where they they, they just have these massive backyards they don't know what to 00:54:08
do with? Mm-hmm. So they're kind of stuck. 00:54:12
They're stuck between the can't subdivide it to get an extra lot back there, but they're also not big enough to. 00:54:17
Accessory dwelling you in their backyard. 00:54:23
And that is, that is we are seeing that as a hindrance for most people. 00:54:26
Where they go straight down the street and they have a larger lot, maybe a different zone. 00:54:30
Umm. 00:54:35
And they're able to have that that accessory detached. We're talking about detached attached, absolutely. 00:54:36
You can put an addition on your house, put an attached garage, put it in, you know, an accessory dwelling above it, have at it if 00:54:42
they want to do that, they're they're perfectly within their right to do that, yeah. 00:54:47
It is the city tracking the success of moderate income. 00:54:53
We're making these changes. We say all this stuff and then do you, does the city know how many? 00:54:59
Moderate income based housing units there are in the city. 00:55:05
We have a pretty good idea. 00:55:09
Especially those that are. 00:55:12
And we have to report those numbers every year. So I guess I'm wondering if whatever we propose or whatever, can we attach a 00:55:15
guesstimate as to how much impact that would have if we said we did this. We think you know over the next decade we generate 24 00:55:22
more moderate income housing. 00:55:29
And I think that would be useful to us in doing the analysis because you're right, if we're only seeing the guest houses which are 00:55:37
going to be rent free to a family member. 00:55:43
Um. 00:55:49
That didn't solve any moderate income housing. 00:55:50
And if it went on the rental market, it would be not for moderate income housing. 00:55:53
And I guess the larger discussion here. 00:55:58
By allowing smaller units and maybe not a tiny home, maybe it's you know. 00:56:01
Studio. 00:56:07
Pre built thing that a property owner can reasonably. 00:56:08
Put in their backyard and is that significantly different than adding on to a house? So if you're either locating it. 00:56:12
Further back on the property, so there's more privacy or you're adding it onto your house, it's you're still adding a dwelling 00:56:21
unit. 00:56:26
The location is. Can all the parking be managed on? 00:56:31
Can the impacts of putting? 00:56:35
Unit further back on the property. 00:56:38
Be managed with landscaping requirements. 00:56:41
Location of doorways, windows, other sorts of Can you mitigate impacts by allowing an external structure to be built? 00:56:44
And a more theoretical question is that if. 00:56:54
Significant changes in the. 00:56:58
Does that increase or decrease the value of the housing? 00:57:01
To the existing owners. 00:57:05
Is it, you know, does it increase it? 00:57:08
Dec. 00:57:12
And I guess other opportunities about, you know, with an aging population to how, how can that be managed? You know, you have 00:57:13
people who live in their house that maybe would like to. 00:57:19
Live in a detached structure, so. 00:57:25
If you've aged in your house and you would you say this is too much space, I want to have maybe my kids move into the house and 00:57:29
I'm going to go move into this one bedroom unit that. 00:57:34
More private than an internal unit. 00:57:40
So that's kind of the opportunities that you can create with allowing an external dwelling unit. 00:57:43
With less. 00:57:49
While still mitigating impacts of it. 00:57:51
I guess to Paul's point, though, to say it another word, you want to make sure that there's not a whole bunch of slumlords popping 00:57:55
up. Yeah, I mean, what? What? What? Really? You know, does it change the nature of housing and holiday? 00:58:01
And that. 00:58:08
And that, and if there are four or five of these on my street, is my house value going to go up or down? 00:58:10
Will it go up because someone says, Oh well yeah, you can do an Adu and pay part of your mortgage or that. Or does that make it a 00:58:18
less desirable neighborhood and drive the price down for the rest of the homes? 00:58:25
And you know on the note of ownership as well, when you have an Adu, the you can't have two separate owners. So it's still a 00:58:36
single owner they can rent. 00:58:42
Another person, but the owner would have to live on the site. 00:58:49
That wouldn't change in the code it. 00:58:53
Owner has to live on site in either unit. 00:58:57
But. 00:59:00
So they couldn't have two rentals. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to have two rentals. So you wouldn't rent a house and a tiny house. 00:59:02
So it's still owner controlled? 00:59:09
Can I change the subject for a second? Because there's another issue in here that is troubling me and that's the issue of the 00:59:13
lighting. 00:59:17
And it just looks like you've. 00:59:21
Taken out all of the reference to dark sky compliance and LED lighting and so forth. 00:59:24
Yeah, I think, I think the the current language and the proposed changes it's it wouldn't necessarily be removing everything 00:59:36
that's there. So anything that is there can still remain. 00:59:42
The and especially with lighting, that's something that we could include. 00:59:49
Where it would be external dwelling units that maybe have more of a lighting impact. You definitely want to have dark sky 00:59:54
compliant fixtures, so you could say with an external Adu. 00:59:59
You have to have Dark Sky compliant fixtures. 01:00:05
Other thoughts, Commissioners? 01:00:15
Everybody's excited. They can't wait to add a Adu in their backyard. 01:00:17
I think in. 01:00:21
Strikes a balance between sort of. 01:00:23
Maintaining a neighborhood. 01:00:27
Well. 01:00:29
The Valley is going to get three times denser in the next, you know, whatever. Maybe not three times, but you know, the whole 01:00:31
value is getting denser. Let's put it all in somebody else's city. That, that. 01:00:37
Both unrealistic and maybe irresponsible. So adus to me even if we get. 01:00:46
A lot of them. 01:00:52
Seem like they'll still feel residential as opposed to saying let's build high rises. 01:00:53
And I would be willing to live in an Adu, but I don't want to live in a high rise. I have kids. I want access to a yard so it 01:00:58
feels like. 01:01:02
This is the kind of densification that I want as the resident of holiday. 01:01:07
Umm. 01:01:13
Because I would. I would be willing to live in a house with an Adu. I'd be willing to have an Adu if it were, you know, big 01:01:14
enough. 01:01:16
It seems like that's a nice way to keep it residential, to keep it so that owners are controlling who's in their Adu. 01:01:21
Umm. 01:01:30
While still being responsible and owning the growth that will happen in the in the Valley. 01:01:31
That's a really nice way to put it. I want to put it in another city. 01:01:37
Well I mean I think there's, I think there's space for different kinds of development. I think there are are lots of places that 01:01:44
we should and. 01:01:47
Have high rises, but I think that density itself is is not bad and to put it all somewhere else, I think it makes it less nice 01:01:52
density. 01:01:57
It does bring up one question which ties back to our favorite Planning Commission subject, which is the parking. 01:02:03
Right. I mean, you have these these sheds, these other things that now are accessory dwelling units, but they still have their 01:02:09
existing 1960s one, maybe two car driveway. Where do these new residents park? Right. And looking at some of the code so I could 01:02:17
bring some proposed options, some cities say that your parking for an Adu can't be tandem part. So if you'd like to see something 01:02:24
as specific as that, you could it would have to be, you know? 01:02:32
To the side of existing required garage spaces for. 01:02:40
For a primary structure. So there are ways to be specific about parking requirements for an external Adu. 01:02:43
So when you view an external Adu as. 01:02:50
I guess special privilege in some sense, right? Yes, you can be allowed this use, but there are impacts with that. 01:02:55
So thus with the impacts, we can put more specific requirements relating to those to those impacts. 01:03:03
I really love the idea of dealing with the tandem parking issue. 01:03:11
On the one across from the park and when we had that silly proposal about tandem parking with, you know, who's in front, who's in 01:03:17
back, you know, two different residents arguing over, you know, and waking each other up to go to work in the morning and that 01:03:23
and. 01:03:28
Yeah, I think it's time to address Tandem. 01:03:35
And I can look at that and see what existing code is in other cities on how they are managing that with external ads specifically. 01:03:39
Well, do you need any more feedback or input on this to be able to move forward with something to? 01:03:49
Feel pretty good at 8:45 at night, Yes, I think we're we're good on that. Our next meeting would be the 5th of December so we can 01:03:56
come back. That gives us a couple weeks to have some proposed text. 01:04:02
For these three text amendments. 01:04:09
OK, I had an item that I wanted to ask about. I was looking for Planning Commission dates because I couldn't find my 2023. 01:04:12
Handy dandy calendar. 01:04:23
And. 01:04:25
Couldn't find it anywhere on the city website, which it may be somewhere, but I couldn't find it easily and that brought to my 01:04:26
attention that the Planning Commission page is out of date. 01:04:32
Even more so, because now we have Mr. Barrett. 01:04:39
Who is also not on here, so I think it's time to get this updated and make sure that the calendar is available. 01:04:42
On the website so that when me planning commissioners can't find their meeting schedule. 01:04:54
Actually can somewhere, is that a reasonable? Aye, aye. Would you like a motion because we could do that for you. It's it's not 01:05:01
just the planning departments, it's out of date. Yeah. So yeah, and we are. So the city is updating the website overall right now. 01:05:08
So that is something that staff is working on is updating all the website. 01:05:15
Please make sure we have access to this and we don't have to like go find an agenda somewhere that. Yeah. And then just on the 01:05:24
note of calendars real quick. So thank you for providing the 2024. It was pointed out that in December we have two December nights 01:05:30
and two December 20 thirds on this draft. 01:05:36
There's there's a few months. There's more than that. Oh, there's more. OK, so I I have my circled copy of Dates to fix, so we'll 01:05:42
get those corrected, OK. 01:05:47
Cool. Excel loves different types of numbers, right? 01:05:52
OK, so December 5th is the next planned meeting then? Yes. OK. Could we also get a roster of?