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So if Carrie and Steph's ready to go, I think we'll do a recall to order here if everybody's all set and we will jump in with item | 00:00:00 | |
number six. | 00:00:05 | |
On our agenda, which is the subdivisions. | 00:00:11 | |
Topic Oh my gosh, this looks like fun. Is this carry that's going to be leading this discussion? This one goes to John. All right, | 00:00:15 | |
John, you're on the hot plate. Just so excited to talk about subdivision amendments. | 00:00:21 | |
So from the legislature hot off the legislators agendas. | 00:00:29 | |
This year was a discussion on how to create as many, you know, creating more properties, more homes to make that meet those two | 00:00:34 | |
ends of affordability and the having a product that. | 00:00:40 | |
Is accessible to municipalities. | 00:00:46 | |
One of the hurdles that was brought to the legislature by. | 00:00:49 | |
Specific groups was this process by which land is entitled. | 00:00:53 | |
Meaning, how fast do subdivisions get through planning commissions? | 00:00:59 | |
Specifically. | 00:01:05 | |
Looking at all the municipalities across the counties and in the state. | 00:01:07 | |
He was discovering that many processes are similar to ours. | 00:01:11 | |
Others only have one hearing. You know there were. | 00:01:15 | |
Types of processes and how many public hearings are. | 00:01:19 | |
And the development community was saying it's confusing. | 00:01:23 | |
Ess. | 00:01:27 | |
So this the state's mandate was to standardize. | 00:01:28 | |
So we have until February 1st to standardize our subdivision process. | 00:01:32 | |
Spec. | 00:01:39 | |
Moving away from a three-step process, which you're. | 00:01:41 | |
Concept of preliminary and a final. | 00:01:44 | |
You will no longer have a concept review. | 00:01:49 | |
That concept review will be to be a staff level or will roll into some of those elements into the preliminary level. | 00:01:52 | |
And some of the real technical items. | 00:02:00 | |
That are in the preliminary level of review will roll into a final review which is only available for staff. | 00:02:03 | |
That's the second part of this amendment. | 00:02:09 | |
Second part meaning. | 00:02:12 | |
Only this municipality has only three or four opportunities of review for a final plat. | 00:02:15 | |
4 rounds of back and forth with their engineering firm. | 00:02:22 | |
In order to get a preliminary final construction set which includes grading storm water retention utility. | 00:02:25 | |
Installation. | 00:02:33 | |
The nitty gritty that maybe the Planning Commission does not necessarily. | 00:02:34 | |
Interested in as far as a land use? | 00:02:38 | |
The engineering side and Public Works is interested. The utility companies are interested. | 00:02:42 | |
So the state is saying allow the applicant to have that conversation with staff. | 00:02:48 | |
At a reasonable rate, with four maximum reviews. | 00:02:53 | |
So no concept review that some of those elements will be rolled into a preliminary meeting, one meeting with the Planning | 00:02:58 | |
Commission, one hearing. | 00:03:02 | |
And that's where the entitlement happens. So after that preliminary review you'll be seeing. | 00:03:08 | |
Utility connections, but maybe not the details of the depths of where those pipes are grading. | 00:03:14 | |
The lot sizes, utility connection letters? Basically, can those two lots be serviced by? | 00:03:20 | |
Life safety, those types of elements making sure it meets the ordinance. | 00:03:27 | |
Having your hearing, see if there's any. | 00:03:31 | |
Situations and that needs to be addressed in the public. | 00:03:34 | |
And then it rolls into. | 00:03:38 | |
At staff only. | 00:03:40 | |
And so that's that, that's the the third element. | 00:03:43 | |
The 4th one is something that is kind of new to at least to holiday is an appeal process. | 00:03:47 | |
If after four reviews from a municipality. | 00:03:56 | |
The city and the applicant can agree on what is, whatever the element might be, a storm water retention facility type. | 00:04:00 | |
They have the ability to appeal that decision to a specific body. | 00:04:08 | |
That is made-up by professionals in the field. | 00:04:13 | |
And it goes from there. | 00:04:18 | |
Highly likely the city of holiday maintenance will never get to that point, but from the larger cities and huge subdivisions that | 00:04:21 | |
are plotting 80 to 100 lots, it could be a feasible scenario. But we need to establish the process anyway. | 00:04:28 | |
So that's in that ordinance amendment in a nutshell. | 00:04:36 | |
The state of Utah is funding various. | 00:04:41 | |
To allow municipalities to be counseled on this type of amendment to make sure. | 00:04:46 | |
Just like our moderate income housing plan, it has to meet a certain standard and it has to be basically approved. | 00:04:53 | |
Luckily, our legal counsel is on that list, so we're going to be getting some free counsel from at least them. So that's why we're | 00:04:59 | |
waiting. | 00:05:05 | |
Before we get into draft what that amendment and what that actually looks like so that we can have it reviewed. | 00:05:11 | |
For compliance with the state law. | 00:05:16 | |
And I think in your packet I included what that state law language. | 00:05:19 | |
It's a red line. It's a Senate bill. 174 is very huge, but there's just an excerpt that we've taken out that deals with | 00:05:23 | |
subdivisions. | 00:05:28 | |
So basically, yeah, I don't blame you. | 00:05:34 | |
We'll be matching that as much as we possibly can word. | 00:05:37 | |
But what it means is our ordinance will be. | 00:05:41 | |
Affected greatly. You can see that there's four chapters or 4 sections. | 00:05:47 | |
In the title where Subdivision process? | 00:05:51 | |
Is addressed, so a good thing it'll be truncated the process, it'll be easier to understand for the applicant. | 00:05:54 | |
And you won't be having these long drawn out meetings for subdivisions. | 00:06:03 | |
Just to just to verify compliance. | 00:06:09 | |
So all around I think it's a decent amendment that we are required to make. | 00:06:12 | |
And as we get further into it, I think it'll make me become more. | 00:06:18 | |
So will we. | 00:06:23 | |
We have a clear understanding of like what's I mean it sounds like it's going to be fairly large and its impact for. | 00:06:25 | |
The pre work we have to do to study for approval or you know discussion on some of these things. | 00:06:33 | |
And obviously we, I can't speak for the Commission, but I mean, I trust that you're going to go in and rewrite it exactly to what | 00:06:40 | |
the state says and do it in the most sensible way possible. But are we going to have some kind of recursive training of like, OK, | 00:06:45 | |
here's what you're actually going to do and this is what's everything that's changed now and here's the things you need to look | 00:06:50 | |
at. | 00:06:54 | |
Yeah, we'll definitely review it. And then we have the process, because the process has to be written and that'll be your. | 00:07:00 | |
Chapter 8. So your process is written in there very clearly when you're supposed to hold a hearing. | 00:07:06 | |
When the applicant has the responsibility to respond to the staff's comments. | 00:07:12 | |
It's pretty black and white in that section, so when we go through that. | 00:07:17 | |
Hopefully it'll be it'll be clear as to what your responsibilities will be. | 00:07:20 | |
The hope, but at that point you'll just see now that we have a public hearing at the preliminary level. | 00:07:25 | |
The list of items that we're going to see will be sort of a combination of preliminary and concept. | 00:07:31 | |
But maybe not so much the technical side. | 00:07:37 | |
And you can leave the technical sides to our engineering department or public. | 00:07:40 | |
To have them go back and forth with the engineering side. | 00:07:44 | |
To get a drawing that is acceptable to the city. | 00:07:49 | |
And. | 00:07:54 | |
I always mess up the order. I'm sorry. Is the the concept where the the tree review is or is that in the final? | 00:07:56 | |
That will be preliminary. That'll be a preliminary. Thank you. So it's a good thing we're combining because I mess them up. | 00:08:03 | |
Anyway, this concept right now is really, does it comply with the zone? Do you have lot sizes that are right and can those? | 00:08:09 | |
Or more lots be serviced by utilities. | 00:08:15 | |
And then parking is going to be somewhere in there as well still or if it's like a multi family project or multi use project, yes | 00:08:19 | |
parking will be in there because that's that's his own compliance issue. | 00:08:25 | |
And I forgot there's another element that. | 00:08:33 | |
That is going to be a policy question that I think that our Council is going to have to make a final decision on. | 00:08:38 | |
One that you can recommend to them. | 00:08:45 | |
Is that and this occurred several years ago, we just haven't adopted it yet. | 00:08:47 | |
One and two lot subdivisions are not required to go to your land use. | 00:08:53 | |
One in two lot subdivisions can be done administratively. | 00:08:57 | |
By. | 00:09:01 | |
It's always been the policy by holiday City Council to review those about the land use authority in this body. | 00:09:03 | |
So we are going to bring that to the Planning Commission and then also City Council, see what they think about. | 00:09:10 | |
Leaving 2 lot subdivisions. | 00:09:17 | |
Just to staff as a staff review and. | 00:09:19 | |
Anything more than that, 2-3 lots. | 00:09:23 | |
A multifamily condos multi multi use projects will obviously go to the land use authority. | 00:09:26 | |
But those two lot subdivisions? | 00:09:34 | |
Most cities don't take to their Planning Commission. | 00:09:36 | |
And are those noticed? | 00:09:40 | |
Yeah, they'll follow a different notice. So what will happen is the the site will be posted. | 00:09:43 | |
And then they'll have, we'll take a 10 day comment period. If there's anything that's really abnormal shows up, then we'll bring | 00:09:48 | |
it to the Planning Commission for review. | 00:09:53 | |
Otherwise, after that 10 day, we'll just follow through with our own preliminary concept and final platinum process. | 00:09:58 | |
But it won't be in this venue, it'll just be at administrative level. | 00:10:04 | |
And. | 00:10:09 | |
Will there when it's noticed, whether it's still a budding properties and neighbors will be noticed up to 500 feet or whatever, | 00:10:11 | |
right? | 00:10:14 | |
Yeah, that's another element that I'm pretty sure that their council would like to preserve is the is the noticing and hearing. | 00:10:20 | |
But instead of it actually being a hearing where people come say I don't want it in my backyard, it'll just be send your comments | 00:10:28 | |
to staff and they'll say thanks, send it to Kerry and beat her up and find out what exactly needs to if it if it's actually a | 00:10:34 | |
substantive comment that needs to be addressed by the Planning Commission rather than staff in in in an open meeting. | 00:10:40 | |
Not in my department behind you know, closed doors, so to speak. | 00:10:47 | |
Other questions? | 00:10:56 | |
Mr. Tierlink. | 00:10:58 | |
Upcoming changes We're all excited to learn new. | 00:11:00 | |
It's just getting figured out, right? | 00:11:03 | |
Too. | 00:11:07 | |
Well, as long as you guys guide us through the process, I'm sure it'll be great. Well, we're learning with. | 00:11:09 | |
So we'll figure it out. We'll just remember to have meetings when we're supposed to have meetings. You can just kick the chair on | 00:11:14 | |
that one. | 00:11:17 | |
All right. Well then with that any, if there's no other questions on that, then we'll look forward to the proposed changes coming | 00:11:20 | |
to a meeting to you soon and move on to. | 00:11:25 | |
OK, so item number 7, Ordinance discussion about home occupations. Conditional use permits that are involved with home | 00:11:33 | |
occupations. | 00:11:38 | |
Business licensing, parking, kind of everything that is within the purview of or involved with a home occupation. So Speaking of | 00:11:43 | |
fewer meetings. | 00:11:48 | |
The proposal is to take the conditional use that's associated with a home occupation and create a set list of conditions that are | 00:11:54 | |
applied to all home occupation permits. | 00:12:01 | |
In our review process, as you've seen with. | 00:12:10 | |
Home occupations that that you have reviewed, it's typically very similar conditions. | 00:12:12 | |
Imposed by, you know, specifics of parking has to all be on the site. | 00:12:20 | |
Limited hours. If there's groups, you know what? How does drop off and pick up? How is that managed? So it's including those and | 00:12:26 | |
making sure those are included within the list of conditions. | 00:12:32 | |
And you can be as specific or more general as you want, imposing those. | 00:12:39 | |
And or allowing staff to impose conditions that are specifically relevant to the application. | 00:12:46 | |
Some of those are outlined in the table that is in the staff report. | 00:12:55 | |
So going through those, some of the changes are more minor housekeeping items, changing the table of allowed uses. | 00:13:01 | |
Home occupation changing approval by the Planning Commission to approval of by staff with conditions. | 00:13:12 | |
Umm. | 00:13:18 | |
Putting. | 00:13:20 | |
You could consider separating out the impact of home occupations. So daycares, preschools, group lessons might be a higher impact | 00:13:23 | |
because of the amount of of people coming to the site. So you could put a limitation or you know define low versus high impact, | 00:13:30 | |
what is high impact, what is low impact? That's something that we could look into if that is something that the Planning | 00:13:37 | |
Commission would like to see and some proposed text. | 00:13:45 | |
The another issue that. | 00:13:55 | |
That we were looking at is with the involvement of accessory buildings or yard space. Our current code does not allow the use of | 00:13:59 | |
yard space or accessory buildings. | 00:14:05 | |
The production of things can occur in those, but the actual conducting of the business has to occur within the primary dwelling. | 00:14:10 | |
As we looked at this, it was you know, if somebody has created an accessory building or want to use part of a detached garage, or | 00:14:19 | |
build a detached structure that is just for their office purposes. | 00:14:26 | |
Being able to allow that within specific conditions. | 00:14:35 | |
So that is a consideration that that you can discuss. | 00:14:38 | |
Parking. | 00:14:42 | |
Currently our code refers to our off stripe or on site parking requirements which requires 2 for business use based off of any | 00:14:44 | |
businesses. The same standard for home occupations and the same standard for any business use within commercial zones I. | 00:14:54 | |
Professional office zones. | 00:15:06 | |
A proposed change on that would be to allow the use of 1 off or one street parking space directly abutting the the residents. | 00:15:09 | |
That suggestion came from a review of looking at. | 00:15:20 | |
Liberties. | 00:15:27 | |
They had some proposed code. | 00:15:29 | |
Suggesting that you could evolve. | 00:15:31 | |
And the link between that is a normal residential use, so residential uses typically you'd see on street parking allowed. | 00:15:35 | |
Or guests would have on street parking, so allowing your home occupation to involve one on street parking space. | 00:15:44 | |
So that would be a consideration that you could look. | 00:15:52 | |
Other than that, your specific condition could be that all parking associated with the business. | 00:15:56 | |
Involves. | 00:16:01 | |
The property itself. | 00:16:03 | |
And that one street or or it could just be all managed on site. So taking out the required two and just saying it's all managed | 00:16:05 | |
within the property. Carrie, I'm curious. | 00:16:10 | |
With the like for example, the parking changes, right? | 00:16:17 | |
Would there be consideration given to the different master plans? For example, I could see. | 00:16:22 | |
Saying allowing street parking in the Village would be a much bigger deal than allowing street parking in an R110 in the North 40 | 00:16:29 | |
of Holiday where you know people are parked on the street. | 00:16:35 | |
Anyway, you know what I mean, Yeah. | 00:16:41 | |
And that could be a zone consideration. | 00:16:46 | |
If you wanted. | 00:16:49 | |
And I don't know, John, maybe you'd have a suggestion on how that could be addressed or if that would be. | 00:16:51 | |
A good consideration to include differe. | 00:17:00 | |
Working requirements based off of the zone, sure. So for example, you can definitely have a percentage of what's allowed the off | 00:17:03 | |
street or on street parking or off site. | 00:17:08 | |
In the village you have, we have I think a minimum of 10% of your minimum required can be. | 00:17:15 | |
Used as the yarn St. stalls that are in front. | 00:17:21 | |
It's very difficult for a municipality to defend the fact. | 00:17:25 | |
If you have a home based. | 00:17:29 | |
You those clients can't use a public St. to park in front of their house, whereas. | 00:17:32 | |
Other guests could. | 00:17:37 | |
I think we want to make sure we put the city in a good position to not to be defensible. | 00:17:40 | |
On whether or not that requirement is being placed on applicants. | 00:17:47 | |
To have the requirement for off street parking. | 00:17:51 | |
Whether that's a percentage you can have or a certain time of the day, you know those are the type of scenarios we might be | 00:17:55 | |
looking at. If on street parking was an option, that's that's now considered by Planning Commission and City Council. | 00:18:01 | |
Come. | 00:18:09 | |
Yeah, I have a bit of a concern with the whole idea that many people already have the the parking in front of their houses, their | 00:18:10 | |
parking. | 00:18:14 | |
And that they have exclusive control of it. And that and practice I've seen in another community where people put cones in their | 00:18:19 | |
front of their home so that only people they want to park in their part of the public street can park. | 00:18:27 | |
In that and whether or not if you allow say one of the two parking spaces to be an off St. and yours is already full does that now | 00:18:36 | |
your neighbor you can park in front of the neighbors house and then they come out and say no I got a party to say and you know I | 00:18:42 | |
mean. | 00:18:48 | |
I think it's a dangerous thing to start down this idea that the public owns. | 00:18:54 | |
In any way, whether it's for Hallmark or guests or whatever the parking in front of their house, it's just street parking. | 00:18:59 | |
And then but you know I I think it's worthy of the discussion and and looking at it but I you know I'm I'm a little concerned that | 00:19:08 | |
that reinforces the idea that the parking in front of your house is your control, absolute control of of that. | 00:19:16 | |
And you could I mean it. | 00:19:26 | |
An option would be to just not detail any of the not restricting on street parking at all if there's street parking available, | 00:19:28 | |
people who are coming to the house for business purposes as long as it's a low impact. So if you're looking at dividing low and | 00:19:36 | |
high impact, maybe all of low impact is. | 00:19:43 | |
You know you can park on site. You have to. | 00:19:51 | |
Parking provided on site. | 00:19:54 | |
If there is some street parking, it would be one car at a time. | 00:19:56 | |
So something like that that restricts some degree of parking, but isn't so specific about it's the one spot in front of your | 00:20:00 | |
house. | 00:20:05 | |
And for your code enforcement people, this becomes a very problematic thing about you know, OK, how do you prove which purpose | 00:20:11 | |
that car is there? | 00:20:16 | |
You. | 00:20:21 | |
It's real easy when you see the cello getting pulled out of the back of it. | 00:20:22 | |
You have. | 00:20:27 | |
You know this is not a public hearing, so but and that related to that, I did have a thought because of what happened earlier and | 00:20:31 | |
that I do think we need to think about if the home walk is in a apartment complex which is different than a condominium, which is | 00:20:40 | |
different than a residential community. | 00:20:48 | |
And they have single homes, and there may be unique things for each of those. | 00:20:58 | |
And one would be an interesting legal question about, you know, if it runs with the land OK and it comes in an apartment. | 00:21:04 | |
And we don't have the owner of the apartment asking for. | 00:21:11 | |
We have a. | 00:21:15 | |
A renter? | 00:21:17 | |
In that condominium, obviously different how you got an owner. | 00:21:18 | |
But unit 229 if I remember the number you 2229. So I want to move into a complex. | 00:21:22 | |
And I don't want to go through a process, so I buy 229 because it already has. I just think that those, at least those three kinds | 00:21:29 | |
of housing have some very unique. | 00:21:35 | |
Considerations independent of HOA rules and all that. Mm-hmm. And that, that. | 00:21:41 | |
Are worthy at looking at as we we review this there there is. That's a good point and I I think it'll require some work to figure | 00:21:48 | |
out what the right solution is given. | 00:21:53 | |
These different communities, but one way you can get at. | 00:21:59 | |
Is to tie with the home occupation business. | 00:22:03 | |
That runs with the land business license requirement. That doesn't run with the land. | 00:22:08 | |
And if the business license ceases to exist at the location, then. | 00:22:14 | |
Permitted. | 00:22:19 | |
Or conditional use ceases to exist at the location that would be good and they they're kind of tied together. | 00:22:21 | |
And then similarly the business license gives you the right to. | 00:22:28 | |
The property from time to time when they go for a renewal. | 00:22:33 | |
So for those difficult, code enforcement matters where you're limited because you cannot enter a home. | 00:22:36 | |
Look at traffic counts or do those kinds of things. It gives you a. | 00:22:44 | |
To go in and inspect. | 00:22:48 | |
I know we're not talking about ad use, but if you had. | 00:22:49 | |
Adus or things like that, you know, that's a good tool that can help you get at some of those issues. | 00:22:53 | |
Yeah. | 00:23:00 | |
And do you envision if it becomes an administrative process through staff, there would still be public notice? | 00:23:01 | |
Because. | 00:23:11 | |
One of the things I've noticed and this this woman tonight was a good example. | 00:23:12 | |
We don't know enough about the situation that the neighbors know lots of things. | 00:23:17 | |
Some of which are true and some of which aren't, but at least at least. | 00:23:22 | |
You know, tell us what is something that should be subject. | 00:23:28 | |
Or may be subject to a conditional use. | 00:23:31 | |
And we keep calling it a conditional use, but if there's no public input, it's. | 00:23:35 | |
Unless, you know, we figure out ferret it out on our own, which really isn't our job. | 00:23:40 | |
You know and that. So I as we go through this, if it becomes administrative process, would there still be a noticing requirement? | 00:23:44 | |
I think there is a value to that. | 00:23:49 | |
Yeah. And the, I mean the purpose of a conditional use is to mitigate impact on surrounding properties. So it's to look at what | 00:23:55 | |
that impact is. Some of those impacts may not be immediately foreseeable and that I guess that's a question that for a legal | 00:24:01 | |
counsel could. | 00:24:07 | |
Noticing be a requirement still without having a public hearing. | 00:24:14 | |
Where you just take comments. | 00:24:19 | |
The way that we want to take address this is finding. | 00:24:22 | |
Home occupation uses that have been routine and uncontested in the past. | 00:24:27 | |
Because those standards have pretty much been standardized. | 00:24:31 | |
As years have passed and applications keeps coming on and all the same conditions get applied to. | 00:24:35 | |
You know the weird circumstances, the odd ducks, so to speak, that would come to the Planning Commission would would be noticed. | 00:24:41 | |
Like, for example, a home occupation in a condo complex. | 00:24:49 | |
Or some odd. | 00:24:53 | |
Home occupation or business that's being run out of a home that we've never seen before, Those are not routine and they could | 00:24:55 | |
possibly be contested as well. So those, those definitely would have a hearing applied to them. | 00:25:01 | |
For sure. | 00:25:08 | |
But for those others that are. | 00:25:09 | |
Music lessons? | 00:25:12 | |
You know the the home based therapist. | 00:25:14 | |
We know what those conditions have been applied or in the past we can pretty much standardize. | 00:25:18 | |
As long as they comply with those standards themselves. | 00:25:23 | |
Great. They can get their business license and go. | 00:25:27 | |
If they can't, then they can bring, come bring it to the Planning Commission with a hearing and find out what those those issues | 00:25:30 | |
are. | 00:25:32 | |
But you're absolutely right. You know, the hearing process is critical for that fact finding. | 00:25:36 | |
So it's just to kind of summarize. So really what you're looking for is like take the ones that pretty much no one can test that | 00:25:44 | |
we approve all the time and we ask a couple questions about parking and just say city staff can handle those from now on. We don't | 00:25:50 | |
need to go through all the rings of fire for planning and everybody else for these applicants. | 00:25:57 | |
And in. | 00:26:03 | |
And what and in which zone you're comfortable with? Yeah. | 00:26:05 | |
Makes. | 00:26:10 | |
Any other questions? | 00:26:14 | |
Lessening our workload. | 00:26:17 | |
Let's go ahead and move on to the next one. | 00:26:24 | |
Don't. | 00:26:30 | |
And then I guess on that note too with these discussions, if you have any points that you would like staff to go the direction and | 00:26:32 | |
so those items of discussion. | 00:26:37 | |
Where What kind of drafted text would you like to see? | 00:26:43 | |
So just a. | 00:26:48 | |
In this case, how specific or more general? | 00:26:50 | |
Are you talking about in regards to? | 00:26:55 | |
Just how much? | 00:26:58 | |
Approves on them like or if there's any specific conditions that you want to have included. | 00:27:00 | |
I mean I think the on site parking is relevant. | 00:27:06 | |
In a lot of cases, I mean, especially after tonight's discussion, I think we kind of went through that, right? | 00:27:10 | |
I. | 00:27:18 | |
Depending on your number of clients and you know those type of situations on sites not. | 00:27:19 | |
Unreasonable request. | 00:27:26 | |
So I think that's still something that needs to be considered because like. | 00:27:29 | |
In a lot of cases, like am I worried about someone with cello lessons, right? Parking on the street and dropping their kid off to | 00:27:35 | |
cello? | 00:27:38 | |
Not really. | 00:27:42 | |
But what happens when it's a giant moving van that's parking on the street as part of some business? Because that's what they | 00:27:43 | |
drive and now all of a sudden it's a problem. You know what I mean? | 00:27:50 | |
Landscape Trailer every night. | 00:28:00 | |
Yeah. | 00:28:03 | |
Those type of things I think is where you start to get kind of a rye on that. Yeah. Some of those more specific things with larger | 00:28:05 | |
vehicles are naturally restricted in our code where you can't have vehicles larger than. | 00:28:12 | |
110 John Hart for longer than an hour. | 00:28:19 | |
I like this idea of. | 00:28:27 | |
Having low impact versus high impact. | 00:28:29 | |
Sort of. | 00:28:33 | |
Looking at the correlation between what the impact is and. | 00:28:36 | |
How? How dense or or what zone it's in because? | 00:28:40 | |
I mean to me it doesn't make a lot of sense if you are only going to have one person to your home based business at a time. To | 00:28:45 | |
require 2 on site parkings like that, that doesn't make sense and that's. | 00:28:50 | |
Restricting a lot of people who should not be restricted I think in having their business. So I'm I'm in favor of making the | 00:28:55 | |
parking more flexible sort of as as this is. | 00:29:01 | |
Suggesting here lowering it for in circumstances where it makes sense to have a lower minimum. | 00:29:07 | |
And then in places where it's more dense, we still want people to be able to have businesses even if they live in a condo, so. | 00:29:16 | |
Umm. | 00:29:25 | |
You know, figuring, figuring that out, how how are we going to let them do that? I think that's reasonable. | 00:29:27 | |
We have a lot of parking lots. | 00:29:33 | |
I think we should. | 00:29:37 | |
Use. | 00:29:39 | |
You know and. | 00:29:41 | |
Be as restricted as we have. So I think that combination. | 00:29:43 | |
Is good thinking about impact and. | 00:29:48 | |
With the parking, the prohibited uses, can you just talk about that one again it looks like. | 00:29:50 | |
Don't have prohibited uses. | 00:29:58 | |
And this is making suggestions about things that. | 00:30:02 | |
May not want people to do in their home based businesses. Is that is that a correct reading of that right? | 00:30:05 | |
So. | 00:30:11 | |
There were a couple of cities that call out specific uses in that home occupation section of uses that are expressly not allowed. | 00:30:13 | |
So example. | 00:30:18 | |
Salons with multiple employees. So if you have like 2 salon people, so then they're seeing multiple clients at a time. | 00:30:25 | |
Kennels, commercial stables. These are pretty. | 00:30:33 | |
Or just much larger impact? | 00:30:36 | |
Home occupations that could occur. | 00:30:39 | |
You could include these or any other specifics that that you could see as potentially being an issue or we could incorporate just | 00:30:42 | |
a general provision that any uses outside of a normal customary use would require review by Planning Commission. | 00:30:51 | |
Just in the short time I've been on the Commission, we've seen. | 00:31:04 | |
Instances. | 00:31:09 | |
Neighbors tend to bleed before they're cut. | 00:31:11 | |
You know, we get a lot of complaints from people who anticipate problems before there's even. | 00:31:16 | |
Any action. | 00:31:24 | |
And. | 00:31:26 | |
I think we have to be sensitive to that and. | 00:31:27 | |
We can't head everything off at the pass. I think we just have to. | 00:31:31 | |
Understand that people don't like change. | 00:31:36 | |
And to Angela's point, we want to be welcoming and friendly to business. | 00:31:40 | |
I I like your description of the. | 00:31:46 | |
Us. | 00:31:49 | |
That would fall outside of. | 00:31:52 | |
Types of activities would have to be reviewed, however it was you said that that sounded a reasonable way to try and split the. | 00:31:55 | |
You know, split the difference between. | 00:32:03 | |
Prescribing everything that is allowed and everything that's not allowed. | 00:32:05 | |
In a more workable way. | 00:32:10 | |
It would not be appropriate for me to make the policy judgment. | 00:32:13 | |
Is for you all. | 00:32:17 | |
But there are certain categories of uses that are just dangerous if they're in a home environment. | 00:32:19 | |
And I would encourage you to look at the list that they put together. The firearms 1 catches my eye, that's for sure. And. | 00:32:27 | |
Issues you'll get into are dry cleaning businesses that use in store chemicals, firearms. You know, there are certain categories | 00:32:36 | |
of things where I think you pretty easily can say we never want this to occur. | 00:32:42 | |
There's a middle category of things where. | 00:32:48 | |
Maybe you'll want to see it and apply some jud. | 00:32:51 | |
But I. | 00:32:55 | |
There are some things where you will want to list, otherwise it becomes difficult to defend it when when you deny that use or that | 00:32:57 | |
application. | 00:33:01 | |
Sample that kind of comes to mind might be. | 00:33:06 | |
Somebody that's running a paint and Body Shop out of their two car detached a garage and they have air compressors and grinders | 00:33:09 | |
and right. The smell of paints in in you know introduced to the neighborhood, you know. | 00:33:16 | |
Or the like the firearms or. Or the firearms. Grenades. Yeah. In the basement. Never go off. Yeah, yeah. | 00:33:24 | |
Archery centers. | 00:33:32 | |
As far as like allowing on street parking, if it were to go that way with certain uses, 1 consideration I would want to see in | 00:33:35 | |
there would be the number of. | 00:33:41 | |
Allowed conditional uses on a street or adjacent in a certain neighborhood. | 00:33:47 | |
Because, for example, I live on a street that has 15 houses of 10 of my neighbors decided they all wanted a conditional use permit | 00:33:52 | |
to do cello lessons. | 00:33:56 | |
I would be very. | 00:34:00 | |
Coming down my street at the hours of drop off and pick up of all my neighbors doing it at once. | 00:34:02 | |
I'm on a street right now where I know they don't have conditional use permits, but there's three home based businesses. | 00:34:10 | |
All within. | 00:34:17 | |
Less than an eighth of a mile of my home. | 00:34:18 | |
And when they're having their parties every Friday night. | 00:34:21 | |
It's so crazy you can't even get one car down the drive or down the street, let alone pass the car. | 00:34:26 | |
And that becomes a safety issue. It becomes, you know, an issue where if we're allowing every home on a street to have a home | 00:34:33 | |
based business and on street parking. | 00:34:38 | |
I didn't purchase my home to live in a business district, right? Yeah, And that's one of the elements that's already currently | 00:34:43 | |
written in ordinance. | 00:34:48 | |
You can. | 00:34:54 | |
Or exert your authority to deny a conditional use permit if there is. | 00:34:56 | |
And I don't know exactly what the language is. Something like an unusual concentration? | 00:35:01 | |
Of those types of uses within and, it gives a. | 00:35:06 | |
I've never really ran into that before. | 00:35:11 | |
But yes, that type of that notion is in there is in the court already, OK. | 00:35:14 | |
Just looking into the crystal ball, I'm sure there's not 12 piano teachers on one street right now, but you never know. The only | 00:35:19 | |
situation where I've run into that being an issue is where you have home based business applications. | 00:35:25 | |
Residences that are near schools. | 00:35:32 | |
If the drop off and pick up time for the home based business is the same as the school, then you get the crush all at once. | 00:35:35 | |
Those. | 00:35:43 | |
I don't know what you call them in your code, but the accumulation of impacts all at the same time becomes an issue. | 00:35:45 | |
Yeah. | 00:35:52 | |
And we most likely hear about that from neighbors who know the schedule. Remember the one we had with? | 00:35:53 | |
Hairdresser and they wanted to keep the. | 00:36:02 | |
Not have them open. Wireless alleyway was being used for the school. | 00:36:05 | |
Which was, you know, the school is now closed. So you know, we and we knew that and they they probably should have known that too. | 00:36:09 | |
But. | 00:36:13 | |
You only hear about those things from the immediate neighbors who know the flow of the neighborhood. | 00:36:19 | |
A consideration on that too with it is one of the bullet points. So parking that exceeds the parking that is available on the. | 00:36:25 | |
Possibly involving that one extra street parking in front of the house or one street parking space in general. So putting a | 00:36:34 | |
limitation on how often that type of exceedance can occur so it can't exceed more than two times in a month or more than two times | 00:36:41 | |
in a 30 day period, whatever that. | 00:36:48 | |
What would be reasonable? | 00:36:56 | |
For exceedance. | 00:36:59 | |
I feel like that might be a challenge for code enforcement, though, right? Like you'd have to have a neighbor. That's like | 00:37:03 | |
recording the comings and goings, basically. Yeah, And a lot of, a lot of the. | 00:37:07 | |
Conditional use issues, when it does come to code enforcement and what it creates an issue is then when Planning Commission would | 00:37:14 | |
look at it or the Community and Economic Development Director would look at it and say OK we need to evaluate your conditions | 00:37:19 | |
here. I I do think it is reasonable to say something like. | 00:37:25 | |
Yes, it may happen once or twice a month, but more than that is could be considered an unreasonable. | 00:37:31 | |
Imposition on the neighbors. | 00:37:39 | |
We may not hit the right number right off the bat, but if you don't pick a number. | 00:37:43 | |
How? | 00:37:49 | |
See if it's the right number or not right. | 00:37:50 | |
So creating a standard. | 00:37:53 | |
Clear. We communicated. | 00:37:56 | |
Mr. Barrett. | 00:38:03 | |
Any any thoughts? You're awfully quiet down there, yeah. | 00:38:04 | |
Taking it all in, I think it's a good idea to do this type of code. Give staff some authority on these things where the Commission | 00:38:08 | |
I, you know, where the law already sets out the standards and if they can meet that, that that should be them. Go ahead and get | 00:38:13 | |
started. | 00:38:18 | |
I My biggest concern here is how we define what neighborhood traffic is anymore, because I think wasn't the. | 00:38:24 | |
Standard 10 vehicle trips per day per residence. | 00:38:33 | |
So, but there used to be a or there is a standard for how many vehicles can come to your house. | 00:38:39 | |
And beyond that is an increase in neighborhood traffic. Well, I know now that I have several 100. | 00:38:45 | |
You know, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks that are going down, that are changing by that dynamic of neighborhood traffic. | 00:38:55 | |
I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this point, but I'm just I'm concerned about the traffic and the parking. | 00:39:03 | |
I don't want to create a law or rules that we can't have some logical. | 00:39:11 | |
Effective enforcement. | 00:39:16 | |
You know, and so the clearer we can make this, the better I. | 00:39:20 | |
I wish I had a better suggestion than that, but I appreciate what the other Commissioners have said because I think that's on | 00:39:25 | |
point. | 00:39:29 | |
I know that businesses are going to become more sophisticated in the future because. | 00:39:34 | |
It's becoming more logical for people to stay at home and do their business and how that all factors, so we may have to have. | 00:39:39 | |
An ordinance that can be modified quickly to meet those kind of demands or? | 00:39:48 | |
Expect. | 00:39:54 | |
Good discussion. Any other? | 00:39:59 | |
Thoughts or points around the conditional use text amendment. | 00:40:02 | |
Moving right along. | 00:40:08 | |
Accessory Dwelling. | 00:40:11 | |
Last item. OK, so. | 00:40:12 | |
You'll remember our Rezone application that involved an accessory dwelling unit. It wasn't. | 00:40:17 | |
It was underneath a detached garage. It was on a lot that was less than 8000 square feet after the public dedication. | 00:40:25 | |
Label typically as a bonus room. That might be something that you'd see as, oh, we have a shed that's converted to an office space | 00:40:35 | |
or shed that's converted to some sort of. | 00:40:41 | |
Neighbor or some sort of alternate use. That's that somebody may want to convert to a accessory dwelling unit. So taking that shed | 00:40:48 | |
or some space into. | 00:40:53 | |
Making it a habitable space. | 00:40:59 | |
So City Council did not approve that rezone, but directed staff to look at our Adu ordinance, and specifically. | 00:41:03 | |
Allowing the conversion of existing accessory buildings. So if you have a detached garage or if you have a shed. | 00:41:13 | |
What kind of a code? | 00:41:23 | |
Change would then allow somebody to convert that accessory dwelling or accessory building into a dwelling unit. | 00:41:26 | |
So right now our code does not allow external dwelling units on lots that are less than half an acre or that are twice the the | 00:41:34 | |
minimum lot size. | 00:41:39 | |
John, is it that they can't rent that so they could still create? | 00:41:47 | |
Some sort of habitable space in an accessory unit, but they couldn't rent it. | 00:41:52 | |
OK. | 00:41:58 | |
With the current code. | 00:42:00 | |
OK. And I think the way that we proceed is written is that. | 00:42:04 | |
To the. | 00:42:09 | |
To be used. | 00:42:13 | |
Accessory standards. | 00:42:18 | |
So I could turn. | 00:42:25 | |
Would there be restrictions on how many? Like for example if I had a shed and a greenhouse in my backyard which I do, could I make | 00:42:27 | |
2 accessory dwelling units? No our code limits and accessory dwelling unit. You can only have one on the property so that could be | 00:42:33 | |
interior or or an external. | 00:42:39 | |
So in this particular case, were they looking for a way to let this person have what they've denied him, we denied him? | 00:42:48 | |
Or they really think that they want to open up the whole city. | 00:42:56 | |
It's a larger they looked at. | 00:43:01 | |
As a way. | 00:43:06 | |
Address some of our moderate income housing goals, one of those being remove restrictions around accessory dwelling units. | 00:43:10 | |
So looking at what our current code is, how restrictive is it? What changes could be made to that to meet that moderate income | 00:43:18 | |
housing goal? | 00:43:22 | |
And thus allow the creation of more accessory dwelling units. | 00:43:27 | |
And I'm in. | 00:43:31 | |
Increasing the ability to have moderate but what we tend to approve. | 00:43:34 | |
Taking 2000 square foot guest houses and make them into 5000 square foot, which doesn't help the moderate. | 00:43:39 | |
You know, it's almost like. | 00:43:48 | |
The people with the money to build these huge things. | 00:43:50 | |
Where? | 00:43:54 | |
The the changes to allow moderate. | 00:43:57 | |
Housing. | 00:44:01 | |
The goal isn't being met. | 00:44:04 | |
True, it's being met. It's being met by taking big places on expensive properties and creating a house that's not moderately | 00:44:07 | |
priced. | 00:44:11 | |
Those that you that you see that go through that process are pretty small subset to what Kerry reviews and approves at the counter | 00:44:16 | |
for accessory buildings. | 00:44:21 | |
That's why they're coming to you is because they're they're abnormality. | 00:44:25 | |
In the area there might be conditions that have to be applied to that large of a structure. | 00:44:29 | |
Umm. | 00:44:35 | |
It's. | 00:44:36 | |
I would say maybe one or two a year. | 00:44:37 | |
Maybe 3 come to the Planning Commission but opposed to maybe. | 00:44:39 | |
15 or so a year accessory dwelling units. | 00:44:43 | |
Reviewed. | 00:44:47 | |
Another thing we commonly see is just people who would like to build a detached garage and maybe add a unit above it or you know, | 00:44:48 | |
off the back of it. So there are people who are wanting to build accessory dwelling units that are detached and separate from the | 00:44:55 | |
house. I'm usually associated with a detached garage some. | 00:45:02 | |
There is. | 00:45:10 | |
There's a lot more movement in the building community to have modular homes. So you'll see like modular units that are one or two | 00:45:12 | |
bedrooms that can just be placed on a house. They're designed to be less expensive to construct, less expensive to put in place. | 00:45:19 | |
More approachable for for homeowners, especially owners who own smaller properties that maybe want something a little bit smaller. | 00:45:26 | |
Is there a minimum size that these would have to be like? I mean, for example, could I take my 20 by 10 greenhouse space and say | 00:45:34 | |
it's a tiny home? | 00:45:39 | |
You could. There's an accessory. Buildings have a set footprint size. | 00:45:45 | |
Minimum size is 200 square feet. | 00:45:53 | |
That's I think that. | 00:45:56 | |
Yeah, yeah. External dwelling units, there's a minimum size of 200 square feet. I mean, there's barely room for a toilet in that, | 00:45:58 | |
but yeah. | 00:46:02 | |
Can I ask you a question about the? | 00:46:07 | |
The Is there a difference with setbacks and separation from the main structure between accessory buildings and Adus? There is our | 00:46:09 | |
code. | 00:46:14 | |
States that you have to have a 25% increase in your set back distance if it involves A dwelling unit. | 00:46:21 | |
Less. | 00:46:30 | |
And that's where you run into some conflict with existing accessory structures. So existing accessory structures are built to 1 | 00:46:32 | |
standard. | 00:46:36 | |
And converting that to a dwelling unit has a different standard. | 00:46:42 | |
So the the standard that it was built under would apply. So you're going to end up with some. | 00:46:47 | |
Accessory structures that are converted that have the setbacks required for an accessory building, but not the setbacks that would | 00:46:54 | |
be required for a new structure or a new dwelling unit. OK And is there a maximum size that the Adu can be? | 00:47:02 | |
In comparison to the primary. | 00:47:13 | |
So our code has accessory buildings, limited footprint, size, that's the accessory, but not Adus. We don't have, are they the | 00:47:18 | |
same? OK, OK. | 00:47:23 | |
So that would limit the size of your 5000 square foot. | 00:47:29 | |
In most cases, I guess right we do have you can't apply for a conditional use permit. Is that just on guest houses, John? Or is | 00:47:34 | |
it? | 00:47:38 | |
So you can apply for a conditional use permit for any accessory building that you're proposing to be over the permitted size. | 00:47:45 | |
So that would be like the RV garage that they wanted to add on. It was over the larger or over the footprint size? | 00:47:53 | |
Add. | 00:48:01 | |
So this would be a concern I guess in in looking forward to if this were something that were to happen, but. | 00:48:02 | |
If I have a garage right, and it's at the far corner of my backyard, right long driveway, we've seen these old pioneer style | 00:48:10 | |
houses down and you know Garfield 13 S area. | 00:48:16 | |
But if I decide I want to build an apartment above that garage and call it and you know, a dwelling unit like is there still going | 00:48:24 | |
to be restrictions on height and things like that or am I like building this tower that's going to look down on all the neighbors | 00:48:31 | |
backyards from that point forward? Exactly. So our building permit process, you do have a graduated height requirement. | 00:48:38 | |
So that's created by going 8 feet up and then a 45 degree angle over. | 00:48:45 | |
Most structures that are 20 feet or less, just depending on how close they are to the property line if you want. | 00:48:51 | |
Our accessory structures are limited to 20 feet in height. | 00:48:59 | |
If you're 20, if you're 3 feet off the property line, you may have to come back further away to meet your graduated high | 00:49:04 | |
requirements, just depending on how that. | 00:49:09 | |
Building is constructed so they could build the tower, but they'd have to build it further into the yard. | 00:49:15 | |
So are you looking? | 00:49:22 | |
Our comments on the proposed changes that we eliminate. | 00:49:24 | |
Twice the size and also at least 1/2 acre, so that yes that is one option so. | 00:49:29 | |
Kind of a series of options you could. | 00:49:37 | |
You could limit it to just saying code change to. | 00:49:41 | |
Allowing the conversion of existing structures that are on lots that are smaller than half an acre or lots that don't meet that | 00:49:45 | |
twice the minimum. | 00:49:51 | |
Lot size required in. | 00:49:57 | |
So that's one option. | 00:49:59 | |
If you wanted to. | 00:50:01 | |
Eliminates. | 00:50:04 | |
The half acre minimum lot size or twice the both of those requirements and allow external dwelling units to be built on lots | 00:50:09 | |
smaller than. | 00:50:15 | |
Than half an acre, that would be another option. | 00:50:21 | |
Can I ask a question on that as far as the history? Are you seeing a lot of requests? | 00:50:26 | |
That are bumping up into this twice the size and half acre minimum. | 00:50:31 | |
Or I the I mean, does it really hurt if we just eliminate that language and? | 00:50:37 | |
If they can fit the building in the property based on the setbacks, they could do it. | 00:50:44 | |
And that's where if you wanted to create some more limitations. | 00:50:49 | |
For. | 00:50:54 | |
Mitigating impacts of if you're going to have an external dwelling. | 00:50:55 | |
Maybe it can't have a door that is on a side property line. The door would have to be inside the property. | 00:50:59 | |
Another common thing is Windows facing. You know or. | 00:51:08 | |
Having to have landscaping or fencing that that buffers from neighboring properties, or requiring larger setback distances so you | 00:51:14 | |
could. | 00:51:20 | |
Set back your accessory dwelling. | 00:51:25 | |
Further from the property lines. | 00:51:28 | |
There's some cities that require external dwelling units to be within the setbacks required for a primary structure. | 00:51:31 | |
So that could be an option as well. | 00:51:40 | |
If you wanted to bring anything that's an accessory dwelling unit external into those. | 00:51:43 | |
Required setbacks for a. | 00:51:48 | |
I. | 00:51:51 | |
For me personally, I would prefer it be the existing conversion rather than the let's let loose and everybody on the street builds | 00:51:52 | |
a guest house in the backyard and an R110 where the lots are 8000 square feet. | 00:52:00 | |
I could see a whole bunch of tiny homes crowding out real fast, and there's your moderate income. But at the same time, at what | 00:52:07 | |
cost do you do that right? Well, whatever is most respectful for the existing residents, right? You know, whatever is most | 00:52:13 | |
respectful for the neighbors. | 00:52:20 | |
I think I agree with that. | 00:52:26 | |
We saw. | 00:52:29 | |
In cases where they had an existing and newer home that had just been built and. | 00:52:34 | |
Couldn't call it rented or something. Everything problem. | 00:52:39 | |
Because it was on two small smalls, a lot and then two of the neighbors also they wanted it rezoned because those two neighbors | 00:52:44 | |
also wanted to build accessory dwelling unit. | 00:52:49 | |
That would have been a lot. I mean that. | 00:52:57 | |
Tripled, right, the residency in that little area on that little St. with small lots as opposed to if this, what we're talking | 00:52:59 | |
about happened then the one would have already been built in there and maybe the other one converts his garage, right? | 00:53:07 | |
But it doesn't create new buildings because they were wanting to build new buildings, right? | 00:53:17 | |
So and feel much more comfortable in doing that. | 00:53:23 | |
So they they can still build buildings and they can still build. | 00:53:28 | |
External Dwelling Units. | 00:53:35 | |
They just. | 00:53:37 | |
Rent them. Is that the distinction? No, they. They. | 00:53:39 | |
Did they have more than twice the lot size for those lots? No. That was the issue. They were trying to rezone it because they were | 00:53:43 | |
trying to so most of those properties in that area and largely for most R110 zones in the city. | 00:53:51 | |
We have neighborhoods which we call super conforming. | 00:53:59 | |
They're more than the minimum R110 zone. | 00:54:02 | |
So not enough to subdivide but. | 00:54:05 | |
Too small to plow. You know that type of situation where they they, they just have these massive backyards they don't know what to | 00:54:08 | |
do with? Mm-hmm. So they're kind of stuck. | 00:54:12 | |
They're stuck between the can't subdivide it to get an extra lot back there, but they're also not big enough to. | 00:54:17 | |
Accessory dwelling you in their backyard. | 00:54:23 | |
And that is, that is we are seeing that as a hindrance for most people. | 00:54:26 | |
Where they go straight down the street and they have a larger lot, maybe a different zone. | 00:54:30 | |
Umm. | 00:54:35 | |
And they're able to have that that accessory detached. We're talking about detached attached, absolutely. | 00:54:36 | |
You can put an addition on your house, put an attached garage, put it in, you know, an accessory dwelling above it, have at it if | 00:54:42 | |
they want to do that, they're they're perfectly within their right to do that, yeah. | 00:54:47 | |
It is the city tracking the success of moderate income. | 00:54:53 | |
We're making these changes. We say all this stuff and then do you, does the city know how many? | 00:54:59 | |
Moderate income based housing units there are in the city. | 00:55:05 | |
We have a pretty good idea. | 00:55:09 | |
Especially those that are. | 00:55:12 | |
And we have to report those numbers every year. So I guess I'm wondering if whatever we propose or whatever, can we attach a | 00:55:15 | |
guesstimate as to how much impact that would have if we said we did this. We think you know over the next decade we generate 24 | 00:55:22 | |
more moderate income housing. | 00:55:29 | |
And I think that would be useful to us in doing the analysis because you're right, if we're only seeing the guest houses which are | 00:55:37 | |
going to be rent free to a family member. | 00:55:43 | |
Um. | 00:55:49 | |
That didn't solve any moderate income housing. | 00:55:50 | |
And if it went on the rental market, it would be not for moderate income housing. | 00:55:53 | |
And I guess the larger discussion here. | 00:55:58 | |
By allowing smaller units and maybe not a tiny home, maybe it's you know. | 00:56:01 | |
Studio. | 00:56:07 | |
Pre built thing that a property owner can reasonably. | 00:56:08 | |
Put in their backyard and is that significantly different than adding on to a house? So if you're either locating it. | 00:56:12 | |
Further back on the property, so there's more privacy or you're adding it onto your house, it's you're still adding a dwelling | 00:56:21 | |
unit. | 00:56:26 | |
The location is. Can all the parking be managed on? | 00:56:31 | |
Can the impacts of putting? | 00:56:35 | |
Unit further back on the property. | 00:56:38 | |
Be managed with landscaping requirements. | 00:56:41 | |
Location of doorways, windows, other sorts of Can you mitigate impacts by allowing an external structure to be built? | 00:56:44 | |
And a more theoretical question is that if. | 00:56:54 | |
Significant changes in the. | 00:56:58 | |
Does that increase or decrease the value of the housing? | 00:57:01 | |
To the existing owners. | 00:57:05 | |
Is it, you know, does it increase it? | 00:57:08 | |
Dec. | 00:57:12 | |
And I guess other opportunities about, you know, with an aging population to how, how can that be managed? You know, you have | 00:57:13 | |
people who live in their house that maybe would like to. | 00:57:19 | |
Live in a detached structure, so. | 00:57:25 | |
If you've aged in your house and you would you say this is too much space, I want to have maybe my kids move into the house and | 00:57:29 | |
I'm going to go move into this one bedroom unit that. | 00:57:34 | |
More private than an internal unit. | 00:57:40 | |
So that's kind of the opportunities that you can create with allowing an external dwelling unit. | 00:57:43 | |
With less. | 00:57:49 | |
While still mitigating impacts of it. | 00:57:51 | |
I guess to Paul's point, though, to say it another word, you want to make sure that there's not a whole bunch of slumlords popping | 00:57:55 | |
up. Yeah, I mean, what? What? What? Really? You know, does it change the nature of housing and holiday? | 00:58:01 | |
And that. | 00:58:08 | |
And that, and if there are four or five of these on my street, is my house value going to go up or down? | 00:58:10 | |
Will it go up because someone says, Oh well yeah, you can do an Adu and pay part of your mortgage or that. Or does that make it a | 00:58:18 | |
less desirable neighborhood and drive the price down for the rest of the homes? | 00:58:25 | |
And you know on the note of ownership as well, when you have an Adu, the you can't have two separate owners. So it's still a | 00:58:36 | |
single owner they can rent. | 00:58:42 | |
Another person, but the owner would have to live on the site. | 00:58:49 | |
That wouldn't change in the code it. | 00:58:53 | |
Owner has to live on site in either unit. | 00:58:57 | |
But. | 00:59:00 | |
So they couldn't have two rentals. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to have two rentals. So you wouldn't rent a house and a tiny house. | 00:59:02 | |
So it's still owner controlled? | 00:59:09 | |
Can I change the subject for a second? Because there's another issue in here that is troubling me and that's the issue of the | 00:59:13 | |
lighting. | 00:59:17 | |
And it just looks like you've. | 00:59:21 | |
Taken out all of the reference to dark sky compliance and LED lighting and so forth. | 00:59:24 | |
Yeah, I think, I think the the current language and the proposed changes it's it wouldn't necessarily be removing everything | 00:59:36 | |
that's there. So anything that is there can still remain. | 00:59:42 | |
The and especially with lighting, that's something that we could include. | 00:59:49 | |
Where it would be external dwelling units that maybe have more of a lighting impact. You definitely want to have dark sky | 00:59:54 | |
compliant fixtures, so you could say with an external Adu. | 00:59:59 | |
You have to have Dark Sky compliant fixtures. | 01:00:05 | |
Other thoughts, Commissioners? | 01:00:15 | |
Everybody's excited. They can't wait to add a Adu in their backyard. | 01:00:17 | |
I think in. | 01:00:21 | |
Strikes a balance between sort of. | 01:00:23 | |
Maintaining a neighborhood. | 01:00:27 | |
Well. | 01:00:29 | |
The Valley is going to get three times denser in the next, you know, whatever. Maybe not three times, but you know, the whole | 01:00:31 | |
value is getting denser. Let's put it all in somebody else's city. That, that. | 01:00:37 | |
Both unrealistic and maybe irresponsible. So adus to me even if we get. | 01:00:46 | |
A lot of them. | 01:00:52 | |
Seem like they'll still feel residential as opposed to saying let's build high rises. | 01:00:53 | |
And I would be willing to live in an Adu, but I don't want to live in a high rise. I have kids. I want access to a yard so it | 01:00:58 | |
feels like. | 01:01:02 | |
This is the kind of densification that I want as the resident of holiday. | 01:01:07 | |
Umm. | 01:01:13 | |
Because I would. I would be willing to live in a house with an Adu. I'd be willing to have an Adu if it were, you know, big | 01:01:14 | |
enough. | 01:01:16 | |
It seems like that's a nice way to keep it residential, to keep it so that owners are controlling who's in their Adu. | 01:01:21 | |
Umm. | 01:01:30 | |
While still being responsible and owning the growth that will happen in the in the Valley. | 01:01:31 | |
That's a really nice way to put it. I want to put it in another city. | 01:01:37 | |
Well I mean I think there's, I think there's space for different kinds of development. I think there are are lots of places that | 01:01:44 | |
we should and. | 01:01:47 | |
Have high rises, but I think that density itself is is not bad and to put it all somewhere else, I think it makes it less nice | 01:01:52 | |
density. | 01:01:57 | |
It does bring up one question which ties back to our favorite Planning Commission subject, which is the parking. | 01:02:03 | |
Right. I mean, you have these these sheds, these other things that now are accessory dwelling units, but they still have their | 01:02:09 | |
existing 1960s one, maybe two car driveway. Where do these new residents park? Right. And looking at some of the code so I could | 01:02:17 | |
bring some proposed options, some cities say that your parking for an Adu can't be tandem part. So if you'd like to see something | 01:02:24 | |
as specific as that, you could it would have to be, you know? | 01:02:32 | |
To the side of existing required garage spaces for. | 01:02:40 | |
For a primary structure. So there are ways to be specific about parking requirements for an external Adu. | 01:02:43 | |
So when you view an external Adu as. | 01:02:50 | |
I guess special privilege in some sense, right? Yes, you can be allowed this use, but there are impacts with that. | 01:02:55 | |
So thus with the impacts, we can put more specific requirements relating to those to those impacts. | 01:03:03 | |
I really love the idea of dealing with the tandem parking issue. | 01:03:11 | |
On the one across from the park and when we had that silly proposal about tandem parking with, you know, who's in front, who's in | 01:03:17 | |
back, you know, two different residents arguing over, you know, and waking each other up to go to work in the morning and that | 01:03:23 | |
and. | 01:03:28 | |
Yeah, I think it's time to address Tandem. | 01:03:35 | |
And I can look at that and see what existing code is in other cities on how they are managing that with external ads specifically. | 01:03:39 | |
Well, do you need any more feedback or input on this to be able to move forward with something to? | 01:03:49 | |
Feel pretty good at 8:45 at night, Yes, I think we're we're good on that. Our next meeting would be the 5th of December so we can | 01:03:56 | |
come back. That gives us a couple weeks to have some proposed text. | 01:04:02 | |
For these three text amendments. | 01:04:09 | |
OK, I had an item that I wanted to ask about. I was looking for Planning Commission dates because I couldn't find my 2023. | 01:04:12 | |
Handy dandy calendar. | 01:04:23 | |
And. | 01:04:25 | |
Couldn't find it anywhere on the city website, which it may be somewhere, but I couldn't find it easily and that brought to my | 01:04:26 | |
attention that the Planning Commission page is out of date. | 01:04:32 | |
Even more so, because now we have Mr. Barrett. | 01:04:39 | |
Who is also not on here, so I think it's time to get this updated and make sure that the calendar is available. | 01:04:42 | |
On the website so that when me planning commissioners can't find their meeting schedule. | 01:04:54 | |
Actually can somewhere, is that a reasonable? Aye, aye. Would you like a motion because we could do that for you. It's it's not | 01:05:01 | |
just the planning departments, it's out of date. Yeah. So yeah, and we are. So the city is updating the website overall right now. | 01:05:08 | |
So that is something that staff is working on is updating all the website. | 01:05:15 | |
Please make sure we have access to this and we don't have to like go find an agenda somewhere that. Yeah. And then just on the | 01:05:24 | |
note of calendars real quick. So thank you for providing the 2024. It was pointed out that in December we have two December nights | 01:05:30 | |
and two December 20 thirds on this draft. | 01:05:36 | |
There's there's a few months. There's more than that. Oh, there's more. OK, so I I have my circled copy of Dates to fix, so we'll | 01:05:42 | |
get those corrected, OK. | 01:05:47 | |
Cool. Excel loves different types of numbers, right? | 01:05:52 | |
OK, so December 5th is the next planned meeting then? Yes. OK. Could we also get a roster of? | 01:05:57 | |
Commission members. | 01:06:05 | |
With. | 01:06:07 | |
So with contact information, e-mail address, phone number, is that what you're asking? That would I would like that. That would be | 01:06:07 | |
great because we have each others emails from the e-mail stuff but not phone. | 01:06:13 | |
Yeah, yeah. | 01:06:19 | |
Yep, we can contact information sheets. | 01:06:20 | |
As long as we promise not to meet. | 01:06:26 | |
About us attacking each other. | 01:06:32 | |
No more than three of us can meet anywhere publicly, right? Or privately. OK. All right. Well, thank you very much, everyone. With | 01:06:35 | |
that, unless anything else is on the agenda. Motion to adjourn. All in favor, say aye. All right, Have a good night. | 01:06:42 | |
Happy Thanksgiving. | 01:06:51 | |
You. | 01:06:53 |
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So if Carrie and Steph's ready to go, I think we'll do a recall to order here if everybody's all set and we will jump in with item | 00:00:00 | |
number six. | 00:00:05 | |
On our agenda, which is the subdivisions. | 00:00:11 | |
Topic Oh my gosh, this looks like fun. Is this carry that's going to be leading this discussion? This one goes to John. All right, | 00:00:15 | |
John, you're on the hot plate. Just so excited to talk about subdivision amendments. | 00:00:21 | |
So from the legislature hot off the legislators agendas. | 00:00:29 | |
This year was a discussion on how to create as many, you know, creating more properties, more homes to make that meet those two | 00:00:34 | |
ends of affordability and the having a product that. | 00:00:40 | |
Is accessible to municipalities. | 00:00:46 | |
One of the hurdles that was brought to the legislature by. | 00:00:49 | |
Specific groups was this process by which land is entitled. | 00:00:53 | |
Meaning, how fast do subdivisions get through planning commissions? | 00:00:59 | |
Specifically. | 00:01:05 | |
Looking at all the municipalities across the counties and in the state. | 00:01:07 | |
He was discovering that many processes are similar to ours. | 00:01:11 | |
Others only have one hearing. You know there were. | 00:01:15 | |
Types of processes and how many public hearings are. | 00:01:19 | |
And the development community was saying it's confusing. | 00:01:23 | |
Ess. | 00:01:27 | |
So this the state's mandate was to standardize. | 00:01:28 | |
So we have until February 1st to standardize our subdivision process. | 00:01:32 | |
Spec. | 00:01:39 | |
Moving away from a three-step process, which you're. | 00:01:41 | |
Concept of preliminary and a final. | 00:01:44 | |
You will no longer have a concept review. | 00:01:49 | |
That concept review will be to be a staff level or will roll into some of those elements into the preliminary level. | 00:01:52 | |
And some of the real technical items. | 00:02:00 | |
That are in the preliminary level of review will roll into a final review which is only available for staff. | 00:02:03 | |
That's the second part of this amendment. | 00:02:09 | |
Second part meaning. | 00:02:12 | |
Only this municipality has only three or four opportunities of review for a final plat. | 00:02:15 | |
4 rounds of back and forth with their engineering firm. | 00:02:22 | |
In order to get a preliminary final construction set which includes grading storm water retention utility. | 00:02:25 | |
Installation. | 00:02:33 | |
The nitty gritty that maybe the Planning Commission does not necessarily. | 00:02:34 | |
Interested in as far as a land use? | 00:02:38 | |
The engineering side and Public Works is interested. The utility companies are interested. | 00:02:42 | |
So the state is saying allow the applicant to have that conversation with staff. | 00:02:48 | |
At a reasonable rate, with four maximum reviews. | 00:02:53 | |
So no concept review that some of those elements will be rolled into a preliminary meeting, one meeting with the Planning | 00:02:58 | |
Commission, one hearing. | 00:03:02 | |
And that's where the entitlement happens. So after that preliminary review you'll be seeing. | 00:03:08 | |
Utility connections, but maybe not the details of the depths of where those pipes are grading. | 00:03:14 | |
The lot sizes, utility connection letters? Basically, can those two lots be serviced by? | 00:03:20 | |
Life safety, those types of elements making sure it meets the ordinance. | 00:03:27 | |
Having your hearing, see if there's any. | 00:03:31 | |
Situations and that needs to be addressed in the public. | 00:03:34 | |
And then it rolls into. | 00:03:38 | |
At staff only. | 00:03:40 | |
And so that's that, that's the the third element. | 00:03:43 | |
The 4th one is something that is kind of new to at least to holiday is an appeal process. | 00:03:47 | |
If after four reviews from a municipality. | 00:03:56 | |
The city and the applicant can agree on what is, whatever the element might be, a storm water retention facility type. | 00:04:00 | |
They have the ability to appeal that decision to a specific body. | 00:04:08 | |
That is made-up by professionals in the field. | 00:04:13 | |
And it goes from there. | 00:04:18 | |
Highly likely the city of holiday maintenance will never get to that point, but from the larger cities and huge subdivisions that | 00:04:21 | |
are plotting 80 to 100 lots, it could be a feasible scenario. But we need to establish the process anyway. | 00:04:28 | |
So that's in that ordinance amendment in a nutshell. | 00:04:36 | |
The state of Utah is funding various. | 00:04:41 | |
To allow municipalities to be counseled on this type of amendment to make sure. | 00:04:46 | |
Just like our moderate income housing plan, it has to meet a certain standard and it has to be basically approved. | 00:04:53 | |
Luckily, our legal counsel is on that list, so we're going to be getting some free counsel from at least them. So that's why we're | 00:04:59 | |
waiting. | 00:05:05 | |
Before we get into draft what that amendment and what that actually looks like so that we can have it reviewed. | 00:05:11 | |
For compliance with the state law. | 00:05:16 | |
And I think in your packet I included what that state law language. | 00:05:19 | |
It's a red line. It's a Senate bill. 174 is very huge, but there's just an excerpt that we've taken out that deals with | 00:05:23 | |
subdivisions. | 00:05:28 | |
So basically, yeah, I don't blame you. | 00:05:34 | |
We'll be matching that as much as we possibly can word. | 00:05:37 | |
But what it means is our ordinance will be. | 00:05:41 | |
Affected greatly. You can see that there's four chapters or 4 sections. | 00:05:47 | |
In the title where Subdivision process? | 00:05:51 | |
Is addressed, so a good thing it'll be truncated the process, it'll be easier to understand for the applicant. | 00:05:54 | |
And you won't be having these long drawn out meetings for subdivisions. | 00:06:03 | |
Just to just to verify compliance. | 00:06:09 | |
So all around I think it's a decent amendment that we are required to make. | 00:06:12 | |
And as we get further into it, I think it'll make me become more. | 00:06:18 | |
So will we. | 00:06:23 | |
We have a clear understanding of like what's I mean it sounds like it's going to be fairly large and its impact for. | 00:06:25 | |
The pre work we have to do to study for approval or you know discussion on some of these things. | 00:06:33 | |
And obviously we, I can't speak for the Commission, but I mean, I trust that you're going to go in and rewrite it exactly to what | 00:06:40 | |
the state says and do it in the most sensible way possible. But are we going to have some kind of recursive training of like, OK, | 00:06:45 | |
here's what you're actually going to do and this is what's everything that's changed now and here's the things you need to look | 00:06:50 | |
at. | 00:06:54 | |
Yeah, we'll definitely review it. And then we have the process, because the process has to be written and that'll be your. | 00:07:00 | |
Chapter 8. So your process is written in there very clearly when you're supposed to hold a hearing. | 00:07:06 | |
When the applicant has the responsibility to respond to the staff's comments. | 00:07:12 | |
It's pretty black and white in that section, so when we go through that. | 00:07:17 | |
Hopefully it'll be it'll be clear as to what your responsibilities will be. | 00:07:20 | |
The hope, but at that point you'll just see now that we have a public hearing at the preliminary level. | 00:07:25 | |
The list of items that we're going to see will be sort of a combination of preliminary and concept. | 00:07:31 | |
But maybe not so much the technical side. | 00:07:37 | |
And you can leave the technical sides to our engineering department or public. | 00:07:40 | |
To have them go back and forth with the engineering side. | 00:07:44 | |
To get a drawing that is acceptable to the city. | 00:07:49 | |
And. | 00:07:54 | |
I always mess up the order. I'm sorry. Is the the concept where the the tree review is or is that in the final? | 00:07:56 | |
That will be preliminary. That'll be a preliminary. Thank you. So it's a good thing we're combining because I mess them up. | 00:08:03 | |
Anyway, this concept right now is really, does it comply with the zone? Do you have lot sizes that are right and can those? | 00:08:09 | |
Or more lots be serviced by utilities. | 00:08:15 | |
And then parking is going to be somewhere in there as well still or if it's like a multi family project or multi use project, yes | 00:08:19 | |
parking will be in there because that's that's his own compliance issue. | 00:08:25 | |
And I forgot there's another element that. | 00:08:33 | |
That is going to be a policy question that I think that our Council is going to have to make a final decision on. | 00:08:38 | |
One that you can recommend to them. | 00:08:45 | |
Is that and this occurred several years ago, we just haven't adopted it yet. | 00:08:47 | |
One and two lot subdivisions are not required to go to your land use. | 00:08:53 | |
One in two lot subdivisions can be done administratively. | 00:08:57 | |
By. | 00:09:01 | |
It's always been the policy by holiday City Council to review those about the land use authority in this body. | 00:09:03 | |
So we are going to bring that to the Planning Commission and then also City Council, see what they think about. | 00:09:10 | |
Leaving 2 lot subdivisions. | 00:09:17 | |
Just to staff as a staff review and. | 00:09:19 | |
Anything more than that, 2-3 lots. | 00:09:23 | |
A multifamily condos multi multi use projects will obviously go to the land use authority. | 00:09:26 | |
But those two lot subdivisions? | 00:09:34 | |
Most cities don't take to their Planning Commission. | 00:09:36 | |
And are those noticed? | 00:09:40 | |
Yeah, they'll follow a different notice. So what will happen is the the site will be posted. | 00:09:43 | |
And then they'll have, we'll take a 10 day comment period. If there's anything that's really abnormal shows up, then we'll bring | 00:09:48 | |
it to the Planning Commission for review. | 00:09:53 | |
Otherwise, after that 10 day, we'll just follow through with our own preliminary concept and final platinum process. | 00:09:58 | |
But it won't be in this venue, it'll just be at administrative level. | 00:10:04 | |
And. | 00:10:09 | |
Will there when it's noticed, whether it's still a budding properties and neighbors will be noticed up to 500 feet or whatever, | 00:10:11 | |
right? | 00:10:14 | |
Yeah, that's another element that I'm pretty sure that their council would like to preserve is the is the noticing and hearing. | 00:10:20 | |
But instead of it actually being a hearing where people come say I don't want it in my backyard, it'll just be send your comments | 00:10:28 | |
to staff and they'll say thanks, send it to Kerry and beat her up and find out what exactly needs to if it if it's actually a | 00:10:34 | |
substantive comment that needs to be addressed by the Planning Commission rather than staff in in in an open meeting. | 00:10:40 | |
Not in my department behind you know, closed doors, so to speak. | 00:10:47 | |
Other questions? | 00:10:56 | |
Mr. Tierlink. | 00:10:58 | |
Upcoming changes We're all excited to learn new. | 00:11:00 | |
It's just getting figured out, right? | 00:11:03 | |
Too. | 00:11:07 | |
Well, as long as you guys guide us through the process, I'm sure it'll be great. Well, we're learning with. | 00:11:09 | |
So we'll figure it out. We'll just remember to have meetings when we're supposed to have meetings. You can just kick the chair on | 00:11:14 | |
that one. | 00:11:17 | |
All right. Well then with that any, if there's no other questions on that, then we'll look forward to the proposed changes coming | 00:11:20 | |
to a meeting to you soon and move on to. | 00:11:25 | |
OK, so item number 7, Ordinance discussion about home occupations. Conditional use permits that are involved with home | 00:11:33 | |
occupations. | 00:11:38 | |
Business licensing, parking, kind of everything that is within the purview of or involved with a home occupation. So Speaking of | 00:11:43 | |
fewer meetings. | 00:11:48 | |
The proposal is to take the conditional use that's associated with a home occupation and create a set list of conditions that are | 00:11:54 | |
applied to all home occupation permits. | 00:12:01 | |
In our review process, as you've seen with. | 00:12:10 | |
Home occupations that that you have reviewed, it's typically very similar conditions. | 00:12:12 | |
Imposed by, you know, specifics of parking has to all be on the site. | 00:12:20 | |
Limited hours. If there's groups, you know what? How does drop off and pick up? How is that managed? So it's including those and | 00:12:26 | |
making sure those are included within the list of conditions. | 00:12:32 | |
And you can be as specific or more general as you want, imposing those. | 00:12:39 | |
And or allowing staff to impose conditions that are specifically relevant to the application. | 00:12:46 | |
Some of those are outlined in the table that is in the staff report. | 00:12:55 | |
So going through those, some of the changes are more minor housekeeping items, changing the table of allowed uses. | 00:13:01 | |
Home occupation changing approval by the Planning Commission to approval of by staff with conditions. | 00:13:12 | |
Umm. | 00:13:18 | |
Putting. | 00:13:20 | |
You could consider separating out the impact of home occupations. So daycares, preschools, group lessons might be a higher impact | 00:13:23 | |
because of the amount of of people coming to the site. So you could put a limitation or you know define low versus high impact, | 00:13:30 | |
what is high impact, what is low impact? That's something that we could look into if that is something that the Planning | 00:13:37 | |
Commission would like to see and some proposed text. | 00:13:45 | |
The another issue that. | 00:13:55 | |
That we were looking at is with the involvement of accessory buildings or yard space. Our current code does not allow the use of | 00:13:59 | |
yard space or accessory buildings. | 00:14:05 | |
The production of things can occur in those, but the actual conducting of the business has to occur within the primary dwelling. | 00:14:10 | |
As we looked at this, it was you know, if somebody has created an accessory building or want to use part of a detached garage, or | 00:14:19 | |
build a detached structure that is just for their office purposes. | 00:14:26 | |
Being able to allow that within specific conditions. | 00:14:35 | |
So that is a consideration that that you can discuss. | 00:14:38 | |
Parking. | 00:14:42 | |
Currently our code refers to our off stripe or on site parking requirements which requires 2 for business use based off of any | 00:14:44 | |
businesses. The same standard for home occupations and the same standard for any business use within commercial zones I. | 00:14:54 | |
Professional office zones. | 00:15:06 | |
A proposed change on that would be to allow the use of 1 off or one street parking space directly abutting the the residents. | 00:15:09 | |
That suggestion came from a review of looking at. | 00:15:20 | |
Liberties. | 00:15:27 | |
They had some proposed code. | 00:15:29 | |
Suggesting that you could evolve. | 00:15:31 | |
And the link between that is a normal residential use, so residential uses typically you'd see on street parking allowed. | 00:15:35 | |
Or guests would have on street parking, so allowing your home occupation to involve one on street parking space. | 00:15:44 | |
So that would be a consideration that you could look. | 00:15:52 | |
Other than that, your specific condition could be that all parking associated with the business. | 00:15:56 | |
Involves. | 00:16:01 | |
The property itself. | 00:16:03 | |
And that one street or or it could just be all managed on site. So taking out the required two and just saying it's all managed | 00:16:05 | |
within the property. Carrie, I'm curious. | 00:16:10 | |
With the like for example, the parking changes, right? | 00:16:17 | |
Would there be consideration given to the different master plans? For example, I could see. | 00:16:22 | |
Saying allowing street parking in the Village would be a much bigger deal than allowing street parking in an R110 in the North 40 | 00:16:29 | |
of Holiday where you know people are parked on the street. | 00:16:35 | |
Anyway, you know what I mean, Yeah. | 00:16:41 | |
And that could be a zone consideration. | 00:16:46 | |
If you wanted. | 00:16:49 | |
And I don't know, John, maybe you'd have a suggestion on how that could be addressed or if that would be. | 00:16:51 | |
A good consideration to include differe. | 00:17:00 | |
Working requirements based off of the zone, sure. So for example, you can definitely have a percentage of what's allowed the off | 00:17:03 | |
street or on street parking or off site. | 00:17:08 | |
In the village you have, we have I think a minimum of 10% of your minimum required can be. | 00:17:15 | |
Used as the yarn St. stalls that are in front. | 00:17:21 | |
It's very difficult for a municipality to defend the fact. | 00:17:25 | |
If you have a home based. | 00:17:29 | |
You those clients can't use a public St. to park in front of their house, whereas. | 00:17:32 | |
Other guests could. | 00:17:37 | |
I think we want to make sure we put the city in a good position to not to be defensible. | 00:17:40 | |
On whether or not that requirement is being placed on applicants. | 00:17:47 | |
To have the requirement for off street parking. | 00:17:51 | |
Whether that's a percentage you can have or a certain time of the day, you know those are the type of scenarios we might be | 00:17:55 | |
looking at. If on street parking was an option, that's that's now considered by Planning Commission and City Council. | 00:18:01 | |
Come. | 00:18:09 | |
Yeah, I have a bit of a concern with the whole idea that many people already have the the parking in front of their houses, their | 00:18:10 | |
parking. | 00:18:14 | |
And that they have exclusive control of it. And that and practice I've seen in another community where people put cones in their | 00:18:19 | |
front of their home so that only people they want to park in their part of the public street can park. | 00:18:27 | |
In that and whether or not if you allow say one of the two parking spaces to be an off St. and yours is already full does that now | 00:18:36 | |
your neighbor you can park in front of the neighbors house and then they come out and say no I got a party to say and you know I | 00:18:42 | |
mean. | 00:18:48 | |
I think it's a dangerous thing to start down this idea that the public owns. | 00:18:54 | |
In any way, whether it's for Hallmark or guests or whatever the parking in front of their house, it's just street parking. | 00:18:59 | |
And then but you know I I think it's worthy of the discussion and and looking at it but I you know I'm I'm a little concerned that | 00:19:08 | |
that reinforces the idea that the parking in front of your house is your control, absolute control of of that. | 00:19:16 | |
And you could I mean it. | 00:19:26 | |
An option would be to just not detail any of the not restricting on street parking at all if there's street parking available, | 00:19:28 | |
people who are coming to the house for business purposes as long as it's a low impact. So if you're looking at dividing low and | 00:19:36 | |
high impact, maybe all of low impact is. | 00:19:43 | |
You know you can park on site. You have to. | 00:19:51 | |
Parking provided on site. | 00:19:54 | |
If there is some street parking, it would be one car at a time. | 00:19:56 | |
So something like that that restricts some degree of parking, but isn't so specific about it's the one spot in front of your | 00:20:00 | |
house. | 00:20:05 | |
And for your code enforcement people, this becomes a very problematic thing about you know, OK, how do you prove which purpose | 00:20:11 | |
that car is there? | 00:20:16 | |
You. | 00:20:21 | |
It's real easy when you see the cello getting pulled out of the back of it. | 00:20:22 | |
You have. | 00:20:27 | |
You know this is not a public hearing, so but and that related to that, I did have a thought because of what happened earlier and | 00:20:31 | |
that I do think we need to think about if the home walk is in a apartment complex which is different than a condominium, which is | 00:20:40 | |
different than a residential community. | 00:20:48 | |
And they have single homes, and there may be unique things for each of those. | 00:20:58 | |
And one would be an interesting legal question about, you know, if it runs with the land OK and it comes in an apartment. | 00:21:04 | |
And we don't have the owner of the apartment asking for. | 00:21:11 | |
We have a. | 00:21:15 | |
A renter? | 00:21:17 | |
In that condominium, obviously different how you got an owner. | 00:21:18 | |
But unit 229 if I remember the number you 2229. So I want to move into a complex. | 00:21:22 | |
And I don't want to go through a process, so I buy 229 because it already has. I just think that those, at least those three kinds | 00:21:29 | |
of housing have some very unique. | 00:21:35 | |
Considerations independent of HOA rules and all that. Mm-hmm. And that, that. | 00:21:41 | |
Are worthy at looking at as we we review this there there is. That's a good point and I I think it'll require some work to figure | 00:21:48 | |
out what the right solution is given. | 00:21:53 | |
These different communities, but one way you can get at. | 00:21:59 | |
Is to tie with the home occupation business. | 00:22:03 | |
That runs with the land business license requirement. That doesn't run with the land. | 00:22:08 | |
And if the business license ceases to exist at the location, then. | 00:22:14 | |
Permitted. | 00:22:19 | |
Or conditional use ceases to exist at the location that would be good and they they're kind of tied together. | 00:22:21 | |
And then similarly the business license gives you the right to. | 00:22:28 | |
The property from time to time when they go for a renewal. | 00:22:33 | |
So for those difficult, code enforcement matters where you're limited because you cannot enter a home. | 00:22:36 | |
Look at traffic counts or do those kinds of things. It gives you a. | 00:22:44 | |
To go in and inspect. | 00:22:48 | |
I know we're not talking about ad use, but if you had. | 00:22:49 | |
Adus or things like that, you know, that's a good tool that can help you get at some of those issues. | 00:22:53 | |
Yeah. | 00:23:00 | |
And do you envision if it becomes an administrative process through staff, there would still be public notice? | 00:23:01 | |
Because. | 00:23:11 | |
One of the things I've noticed and this this woman tonight was a good example. | 00:23:12 | |
We don't know enough about the situation that the neighbors know lots of things. | 00:23:17 | |
Some of which are true and some of which aren't, but at least at least. | 00:23:22 | |
You know, tell us what is something that should be subject. | 00:23:28 | |
Or may be subject to a conditional use. | 00:23:31 | |
And we keep calling it a conditional use, but if there's no public input, it's. | 00:23:35 | |
Unless, you know, we figure out ferret it out on our own, which really isn't our job. | 00:23:40 | |
You know and that. So I as we go through this, if it becomes administrative process, would there still be a noticing requirement? | 00:23:44 | |
I think there is a value to that. | 00:23:49 | |
Yeah. And the, I mean the purpose of a conditional use is to mitigate impact on surrounding properties. So it's to look at what | 00:23:55 | |
that impact is. Some of those impacts may not be immediately foreseeable and that I guess that's a question that for a legal | 00:24:01 | |
counsel could. | 00:24:07 | |
Noticing be a requirement still without having a public hearing. | 00:24:14 | |
Where you just take comments. | 00:24:19 | |
The way that we want to take address this is finding. | 00:24:22 | |
Home occupation uses that have been routine and uncontested in the past. | 00:24:27 | |
Because those standards have pretty much been standardized. | 00:24:31 | |
As years have passed and applications keeps coming on and all the same conditions get applied to. | 00:24:35 | |
You know the weird circumstances, the odd ducks, so to speak, that would come to the Planning Commission would would be noticed. | 00:24:41 | |
Like, for example, a home occupation in a condo complex. | 00:24:49 | |
Or some odd. | 00:24:53 | |
Home occupation or business that's being run out of a home that we've never seen before, Those are not routine and they could | 00:24:55 | |
possibly be contested as well. So those, those definitely would have a hearing applied to them. | 00:25:01 | |
For sure. | 00:25:08 | |
But for those others that are. | 00:25:09 | |
Music lessons? | 00:25:12 | |
You know the the home based therapist. | 00:25:14 | |
We know what those conditions have been applied or in the past we can pretty much standardize. | 00:25:18 | |
As long as they comply with those standards themselves. | 00:25:23 | |
Great. They can get their business license and go. | 00:25:27 | |
If they can't, then they can bring, come bring it to the Planning Commission with a hearing and find out what those those issues | 00:25:30 | |
are. | 00:25:32 | |
But you're absolutely right. You know, the hearing process is critical for that fact finding. | 00:25:36 | |
So it's just to kind of summarize. So really what you're looking for is like take the ones that pretty much no one can test that | 00:25:44 | |
we approve all the time and we ask a couple questions about parking and just say city staff can handle those from now on. We don't | 00:25:50 | |
need to go through all the rings of fire for planning and everybody else for these applicants. | 00:25:57 | |
And in. | 00:26:03 | |
And what and in which zone you're comfortable with? Yeah. | 00:26:05 | |
Makes. | 00:26:10 | |
Any other questions? | 00:26:14 | |
Lessening our workload. | 00:26:17 | |
Let's go ahead and move on to the next one. | 00:26:24 | |
Don't. | 00:26:30 | |
And then I guess on that note too with these discussions, if you have any points that you would like staff to go the direction and | 00:26:32 | |
so those items of discussion. | 00:26:37 | |
Where What kind of drafted text would you like to see? | 00:26:43 | |
So just a. | 00:26:48 | |
In this case, how specific or more general? | 00:26:50 | |
Are you talking about in regards to? | 00:26:55 | |
Just how much? | 00:26:58 | |
Approves on them like or if there's any specific conditions that you want to have included. | 00:27:00 | |
I mean I think the on site parking is relevant. | 00:27:06 | |
In a lot of cases, I mean, especially after tonight's discussion, I think we kind of went through that, right? | 00:27:10 | |
I. | 00:27:18 | |
Depending on your number of clients and you know those type of situations on sites not. | 00:27:19 | |
Unreasonable request. | 00:27:26 | |
So I think that's still something that needs to be considered because like. | 00:27:29 | |
In a lot of cases, like am I worried about someone with cello lessons, right? Parking on the street and dropping their kid off to | 00:27:35 | |
cello? | 00:27:38 | |
Not really. | 00:27:42 | |
But what happens when it's a giant moving van that's parking on the street as part of some business? Because that's what they | 00:27:43 | |
drive and now all of a sudden it's a problem. You know what I mean? | 00:27:50 | |
Landscape Trailer every night. | 00:28:00 | |
Yeah. | 00:28:03 | |
Those type of things I think is where you start to get kind of a rye on that. Yeah. Some of those more specific things with larger | 00:28:05 | |
vehicles are naturally restricted in our code where you can't have vehicles larger than. | 00:28:12 | |
110 John Hart for longer than an hour. | 00:28:19 | |
I like this idea of. | 00:28:27 | |
Having low impact versus high impact. | 00:28:29 | |
Sort of. | 00:28:33 | |
Looking at the correlation between what the impact is and. | 00:28:36 | |
How? How dense or or what zone it's in because? | 00:28:40 | |
I mean to me it doesn't make a lot of sense if you are only going to have one person to your home based business at a time. To | 00:28:45 | |
require 2 on site parkings like that, that doesn't make sense and that's. | 00:28:50 | |
Restricting a lot of people who should not be restricted I think in having their business. So I'm I'm in favor of making the | 00:28:55 | |
parking more flexible sort of as as this is. | 00:29:01 | |
Suggesting here lowering it for in circumstances where it makes sense to have a lower minimum. | 00:29:07 | |
And then in places where it's more dense, we still want people to be able to have businesses even if they live in a condo, so. | 00:29:16 | |
Umm. | 00:29:25 | |
You know, figuring, figuring that out, how how are we going to let them do that? I think that's reasonable. | 00:29:27 | |
We have a lot of parking lots. | 00:29:33 | |
I think we should. | 00:29:37 | |
Use. | 00:29:39 | |
You know and. | 00:29:41 | |
Be as restricted as we have. So I think that combination. | 00:29:43 | |
Is good thinking about impact and. | 00:29:48 | |
With the parking, the prohibited uses, can you just talk about that one again it looks like. | 00:29:50 | |
Don't have prohibited uses. | 00:29:58 | |
And this is making suggestions about things that. | 00:30:02 | |
May not want people to do in their home based businesses. Is that is that a correct reading of that right? | 00:30:05 | |
So. | 00:30:11 | |
There were a couple of cities that call out specific uses in that home occupation section of uses that are expressly not allowed. | 00:30:13 | |
So example. | 00:30:18 | |
Salons with multiple employees. So if you have like 2 salon people, so then they're seeing multiple clients at a time. | 00:30:25 | |
Kennels, commercial stables. These are pretty. | 00:30:33 | |
Or just much larger impact? | 00:30:36 | |
Home occupations that could occur. | 00:30:39 | |
You could include these or any other specifics that that you could see as potentially being an issue or we could incorporate just | 00:30:42 | |
a general provision that any uses outside of a normal customary use would require review by Planning Commission. | 00:30:51 | |
Just in the short time I've been on the Commission, we've seen. | 00:31:04 | |
Instances. | 00:31:09 | |
Neighbors tend to bleed before they're cut. | 00:31:11 | |
You know, we get a lot of complaints from people who anticipate problems before there's even. | 00:31:16 | |
Any action. | 00:31:24 | |
And. | 00:31:26 | |
I think we have to be sensitive to that and. | 00:31:27 | |
We can't head everything off at the pass. I think we just have to. | 00:31:31 | |
Understand that people don't like change. | 00:31:36 | |
And to Angela's point, we want to be welcoming and friendly to business. | 00:31:40 | |
I I like your description of the. | 00:31:46 | |
Us. | 00:31:49 | |
That would fall outside of. | 00:31:52 | |
Types of activities would have to be reviewed, however it was you said that that sounded a reasonable way to try and split the. | 00:31:55 | |
You know, split the difference between. | 00:32:03 | |
Prescribing everything that is allowed and everything that's not allowed. | 00:32:05 | |
In a more workable way. | 00:32:10 | |
It would not be appropriate for me to make the policy judgment. | 00:32:13 | |
Is for you all. | 00:32:17 | |
But there are certain categories of uses that are just dangerous if they're in a home environment. | 00:32:19 | |
And I would encourage you to look at the list that they put together. The firearms 1 catches my eye, that's for sure. And. | 00:32:27 | |
Issues you'll get into are dry cleaning businesses that use in store chemicals, firearms. You know, there are certain categories | 00:32:36 | |
of things where I think you pretty easily can say we never want this to occur. | 00:32:42 | |
There's a middle category of things where. | 00:32:48 | |
Maybe you'll want to see it and apply some jud. | 00:32:51 | |
But I. | 00:32:55 | |
There are some things where you will want to list, otherwise it becomes difficult to defend it when when you deny that use or that | 00:32:57 | |
application. | 00:33:01 | |
Sample that kind of comes to mind might be. | 00:33:06 | |
Somebody that's running a paint and Body Shop out of their two car detached a garage and they have air compressors and grinders | 00:33:09 | |
and right. The smell of paints in in you know introduced to the neighborhood, you know. | 00:33:16 | |
Or the like the firearms or. Or the firearms. Grenades. Yeah. In the basement. Never go off. Yeah, yeah. | 00:33:24 | |
Archery centers. | 00:33:32 | |
As far as like allowing on street parking, if it were to go that way with certain uses, 1 consideration I would want to see in | 00:33:35 | |
there would be the number of. | 00:33:41 | |
Allowed conditional uses on a street or adjacent in a certain neighborhood. | 00:33:47 | |
Because, for example, I live on a street that has 15 houses of 10 of my neighbors decided they all wanted a conditional use permit | 00:33:52 | |
to do cello lessons. | 00:33:56 | |
I would be very. | 00:34:00 | |
Coming down my street at the hours of drop off and pick up of all my neighbors doing it at once. | 00:34:02 | |
I'm on a street right now where I know they don't have conditional use permits, but there's three home based businesses. | 00:34:10 | |
All within. | 00:34:17 | |
Less than an eighth of a mile of my home. | 00:34:18 | |
And when they're having their parties every Friday night. | 00:34:21 | |
It's so crazy you can't even get one car down the drive or down the street, let alone pass the car. | 00:34:26 | |
And that becomes a safety issue. It becomes, you know, an issue where if we're allowing every home on a street to have a home | 00:34:33 | |
based business and on street parking. | 00:34:38 | |
I didn't purchase my home to live in a business district, right? Yeah, And that's one of the elements that's already currently | 00:34:43 | |
written in ordinance. | 00:34:48 | |
You can. | 00:34:54 | |
Or exert your authority to deny a conditional use permit if there is. | 00:34:56 | |
And I don't know exactly what the language is. Something like an unusual concentration? | 00:35:01 | |
Of those types of uses within and, it gives a. | 00:35:06 | |
I've never really ran into that before. | 00:35:11 | |
But yes, that type of that notion is in there is in the court already, OK. | 00:35:14 | |
Just looking into the crystal ball, I'm sure there's not 12 piano teachers on one street right now, but you never know. The only | 00:35:19 | |
situation where I've run into that being an issue is where you have home based business applications. | 00:35:25 | |
Residences that are near schools. | 00:35:32 | |
If the drop off and pick up time for the home based business is the same as the school, then you get the crush all at once. | 00:35:35 | |
Those. | 00:35:43 | |
I don't know what you call them in your code, but the accumulation of impacts all at the same time becomes an issue. | 00:35:45 | |
Yeah. | 00:35:52 | |
And we most likely hear about that from neighbors who know the schedule. Remember the one we had with? | 00:35:53 | |
Hairdresser and they wanted to keep the. | 00:36:02 | |
Not have them open. Wireless alleyway was being used for the school. | 00:36:05 | |
Which was, you know, the school is now closed. So you know, we and we knew that and they they probably should have known that too. | 00:36:09 | |
But. | 00:36:13 | |
You only hear about those things from the immediate neighbors who know the flow of the neighborhood. | 00:36:19 | |
A consideration on that too with it is one of the bullet points. So parking that exceeds the parking that is available on the. | 00:36:25 | |
Possibly involving that one extra street parking in front of the house or one street parking space in general. So putting a | 00:36:34 | |
limitation on how often that type of exceedance can occur so it can't exceed more than two times in a month or more than two times | 00:36:41 | |
in a 30 day period, whatever that. | 00:36:48 | |
What would be reasonable? | 00:36:56 | |
For exceedance. | 00:36:59 | |
I feel like that might be a challenge for code enforcement, though, right? Like you'd have to have a neighbor. That's like | 00:37:03 | |
recording the comings and goings, basically. Yeah, And a lot of, a lot of the. | 00:37:07 | |
Conditional use issues, when it does come to code enforcement and what it creates an issue is then when Planning Commission would | 00:37:14 | |
look at it or the Community and Economic Development Director would look at it and say OK we need to evaluate your conditions | 00:37:19 | |
here. I I do think it is reasonable to say something like. | 00:37:25 | |
Yes, it may happen once or twice a month, but more than that is could be considered an unreasonable. | 00:37:31 | |
Imposition on the neighbors. | 00:37:39 | |
We may not hit the right number right off the bat, but if you don't pick a number. | 00:37:43 | |
How? | 00:37:49 | |
See if it's the right number or not right. | 00:37:50 | |
So creating a standard. | 00:37:53 | |
Clear. We communicated. | 00:37:56 | |
Mr. Barrett. | 00:38:03 | |
Any any thoughts? You're awfully quiet down there, yeah. | 00:38:04 | |
Taking it all in, I think it's a good idea to do this type of code. Give staff some authority on these things where the Commission | 00:38:08 | |
I, you know, where the law already sets out the standards and if they can meet that, that that should be them. Go ahead and get | 00:38:13 | |
started. | 00:38:18 | |
I My biggest concern here is how we define what neighborhood traffic is anymore, because I think wasn't the. | 00:38:24 | |
Standard 10 vehicle trips per day per residence. | 00:38:33 | |
So, but there used to be a or there is a standard for how many vehicles can come to your house. | 00:38:39 | |
And beyond that is an increase in neighborhood traffic. Well, I know now that I have several 100. | 00:38:45 | |
You know, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks that are going down, that are changing by that dynamic of neighborhood traffic. | 00:38:55 | |
I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this point, but I'm just I'm concerned about the traffic and the parking. | 00:39:03 | |
I don't want to create a law or rules that we can't have some logical. | 00:39:11 | |
Effective enforcement. | 00:39:16 | |
You know, and so the clearer we can make this, the better I. | 00:39:20 | |
I wish I had a better suggestion than that, but I appreciate what the other Commissioners have said because I think that's on | 00:39:25 | |
point. | 00:39:29 | |
I know that businesses are going to become more sophisticated in the future because. | 00:39:34 | |
It's becoming more logical for people to stay at home and do their business and how that all factors, so we may have to have. | 00:39:39 | |
An ordinance that can be modified quickly to meet those kind of demands or? | 00:39:48 | |
Expect. | 00:39:54 | |
Good discussion. Any other? | 00:39:59 | |
Thoughts or points around the conditional use text amendment. | 00:40:02 | |
Moving right along. | 00:40:08 | |
Accessory Dwelling. | 00:40:11 | |
Last item. OK, so. | 00:40:12 | |
You'll remember our Rezone application that involved an accessory dwelling unit. It wasn't. | 00:40:17 | |
It was underneath a detached garage. It was on a lot that was less than 8000 square feet after the public dedication. | 00:40:25 | |
Label typically as a bonus room. That might be something that you'd see as, oh, we have a shed that's converted to an office space | 00:40:35 | |
or shed that's converted to some sort of. | 00:40:41 | |
Neighbor or some sort of alternate use. That's that somebody may want to convert to a accessory dwelling unit. So taking that shed | 00:40:48 | |
or some space into. | 00:40:53 | |
Making it a habitable space. | 00:40:59 | |
So City Council did not approve that rezone, but directed staff to look at our Adu ordinance, and specifically. | 00:41:03 | |
Allowing the conversion of existing accessory buildings. So if you have a detached garage or if you have a shed. | 00:41:13 | |
What kind of a code? | 00:41:23 | |
Change would then allow somebody to convert that accessory dwelling or accessory building into a dwelling unit. | 00:41:26 | |
So right now our code does not allow external dwelling units on lots that are less than half an acre or that are twice the the | 00:41:34 | |
minimum lot size. | 00:41:39 | |
John, is it that they can't rent that so they could still create? | 00:41:47 | |
Some sort of habitable space in an accessory unit, but they couldn't rent it. | 00:41:52 | |
OK. | 00:41:58 | |
With the current code. | 00:42:00 | |
OK. And I think the way that we proceed is written is that. | 00:42:04 | |
To the. | 00:42:09 | |
To be used. | 00:42:13 | |
Accessory standards. | 00:42:18 | |
So I could turn. | 00:42:25 | |
Would there be restrictions on how many? Like for example if I had a shed and a greenhouse in my backyard which I do, could I make | 00:42:27 | |
2 accessory dwelling units? No our code limits and accessory dwelling unit. You can only have one on the property so that could be | 00:42:33 | |
interior or or an external. | 00:42:39 | |
So in this particular case, were they looking for a way to let this person have what they've denied him, we denied him? | 00:42:48 | |
Or they really think that they want to open up the whole city. | 00:42:56 | |
It's a larger they looked at. | 00:43:01 | |
As a way. | 00:43:06 | |
Address some of our moderate income housing goals, one of those being remove restrictions around accessory dwelling units. | 00:43:10 | |
So looking at what our current code is, how restrictive is it? What changes could be made to that to meet that moderate income | 00:43:18 | |
housing goal? | 00:43:22 | |
And thus allow the creation of more accessory dwelling units. | 00:43:27 | |
And I'm in. | 00:43:31 | |
Increasing the ability to have moderate but what we tend to approve. | 00:43:34 | |
Taking 2000 square foot guest houses and make them into 5000 square foot, which doesn't help the moderate. | 00:43:39 | |
You know, it's almost like. | 00:43:48 | |
The people with the money to build these huge things. | 00:43:50 | |
Where? | 00:43:54 | |
The the changes to allow moderate. | 00:43:57 | |
Housing. | 00:44:01 | |
The goal isn't being met. | 00:44:04 | |
True, it's being met. It's being met by taking big places on expensive properties and creating a house that's not moderately | 00:44:07 | |
priced. | 00:44:11 | |
Those that you that you see that go through that process are pretty small subset to what Kerry reviews and approves at the counter | 00:44:16 | |
for accessory buildings. | 00:44:21 | |
That's why they're coming to you is because they're they're abnormality. | 00:44:25 | |
In the area there might be conditions that have to be applied to that large of a structure. | 00:44:29 | |
Umm. | 00:44:35 | |
It's. | 00:44:36 | |
I would say maybe one or two a year. | 00:44:37 | |
Maybe 3 come to the Planning Commission but opposed to maybe. | 00:44:39 | |
15 or so a year accessory dwelling units. | 00:44:43 | |
Reviewed. | 00:44:47 | |
Another thing we commonly see is just people who would like to build a detached garage and maybe add a unit above it or you know, | 00:44:48 | |
off the back of it. So there are people who are wanting to build accessory dwelling units that are detached and separate from the | 00:44:55 | |
house. I'm usually associated with a detached garage some. | 00:45:02 | |
There is. | 00:45:10 | |
There's a lot more movement in the building community to have modular homes. So you'll see like modular units that are one or two | 00:45:12 | |
bedrooms that can just be placed on a house. They're designed to be less expensive to construct, less expensive to put in place. | 00:45:19 | |
More approachable for for homeowners, especially owners who own smaller properties that maybe want something a little bit smaller. | 00:45:26 | |
Is there a minimum size that these would have to be like? I mean, for example, could I take my 20 by 10 greenhouse space and say | 00:45:34 | |
it's a tiny home? | 00:45:39 | |
You could. There's an accessory. Buildings have a set footprint size. | 00:45:45 | |
Minimum size is 200 square feet. | 00:45:53 | |
That's I think that. | 00:45:56 | |
Yeah, yeah. External dwelling units, there's a minimum size of 200 square feet. I mean, there's barely room for a toilet in that, | 00:45:58 | |
but yeah. | 00:46:02 | |
Can I ask you a question about the? | 00:46:07 | |
The Is there a difference with setbacks and separation from the main structure between accessory buildings and Adus? There is our | 00:46:09 | |
code. | 00:46:14 | |
States that you have to have a 25% increase in your set back distance if it involves A dwelling unit. | 00:46:21 | |
Less. | 00:46:30 | |
And that's where you run into some conflict with existing accessory structures. So existing accessory structures are built to 1 | 00:46:32 | |
standard. | 00:46:36 | |
And converting that to a dwelling unit has a different standard. | 00:46:42 | |
So the the standard that it was built under would apply. So you're going to end up with some. | 00:46:47 | |
Accessory structures that are converted that have the setbacks required for an accessory building, but not the setbacks that would | 00:46:54 | |
be required for a new structure or a new dwelling unit. OK And is there a maximum size that the Adu can be? | 00:47:02 | |
In comparison to the primary. | 00:47:13 | |
So our code has accessory buildings, limited footprint, size, that's the accessory, but not Adus. We don't have, are they the | 00:47:18 | |
same? OK, OK. | 00:47:23 | |
So that would limit the size of your 5000 square foot. | 00:47:29 | |
In most cases, I guess right we do have you can't apply for a conditional use permit. Is that just on guest houses, John? Or is | 00:47:34 | |
it? | 00:47:38 | |
So you can apply for a conditional use permit for any accessory building that you're proposing to be over the permitted size. | 00:47:45 | |
So that would be like the RV garage that they wanted to add on. It was over the larger or over the footprint size? | 00:47:53 | |
Add. | 00:48:01 | |
So this would be a concern I guess in in looking forward to if this were something that were to happen, but. | 00:48:02 | |
If I have a garage right, and it's at the far corner of my backyard, right long driveway, we've seen these old pioneer style | 00:48:10 | |
houses down and you know Garfield 13 S area. | 00:48:16 | |
But if I decide I want to build an apartment above that garage and call it and you know, a dwelling unit like is there still going | 00:48:24 | |
to be restrictions on height and things like that or am I like building this tower that's going to look down on all the neighbors | 00:48:31 | |
backyards from that point forward? Exactly. So our building permit process, you do have a graduated height requirement. | 00:48:38 | |
So that's created by going 8 feet up and then a 45 degree angle over. | 00:48:45 | |
Most structures that are 20 feet or less, just depending on how close they are to the property line if you want. | 00:48:51 | |
Our accessory structures are limited to 20 feet in height. | 00:48:59 | |
If you're 20, if you're 3 feet off the property line, you may have to come back further away to meet your graduated high | 00:49:04 | |
requirements, just depending on how that. | 00:49:09 | |
Building is constructed so they could build the tower, but they'd have to build it further into the yard. | 00:49:15 | |
So are you looking? | 00:49:22 | |
Our comments on the proposed changes that we eliminate. | 00:49:24 | |
Twice the size and also at least 1/2 acre, so that yes that is one option so. | 00:49:29 | |
Kind of a series of options you could. | 00:49:37 | |
You could limit it to just saying code change to. | 00:49:41 | |
Allowing the conversion of existing structures that are on lots that are smaller than half an acre or lots that don't meet that | 00:49:45 | |
twice the minimum. | 00:49:51 | |
Lot size required in. | 00:49:57 | |
So that's one option. | 00:49:59 | |
If you wanted to. | 00:50:01 | |
Eliminates. | 00:50:04 | |
The half acre minimum lot size or twice the both of those requirements and allow external dwelling units to be built on lots | 00:50:09 | |
smaller than. | 00:50:15 | |
Than half an acre, that would be another option. | 00:50:21 | |
Can I ask a question on that as far as the history? Are you seeing a lot of requests? | 00:50:26 | |
That are bumping up into this twice the size and half acre minimum. | 00:50:31 | |
Or I the I mean, does it really hurt if we just eliminate that language and? | 00:50:37 | |
If they can fit the building in the property based on the setbacks, they could do it. | 00:50:44 | |
And that's where if you wanted to create some more limitations. | 00:50:49 | |
For. | 00:50:54 | |
Mitigating impacts of if you're going to have an external dwelling. | 00:50:55 | |
Maybe it can't have a door that is on a side property line. The door would have to be inside the property. | 00:50:59 | |
Another common thing is Windows facing. You know or. | 00:51:08 | |
Having to have landscaping or fencing that that buffers from neighboring properties, or requiring larger setback distances so you | 00:51:14 | |
could. | 00:51:20 | |
Set back your accessory dwelling. | 00:51:25 | |
Further from the property lines. | 00:51:28 | |
There's some cities that require external dwelling units to be within the setbacks required for a primary structure. | 00:51:31 | |
So that could be an option as well. | 00:51:40 | |
If you wanted to bring anything that's an accessory dwelling unit external into those. | 00:51:43 | |
Required setbacks for a. | 00:51:48 | |
I. | 00:51:51 | |
For me personally, I would prefer it be the existing conversion rather than the let's let loose and everybody on the street builds | 00:51:52 | |
a guest house in the backyard and an R110 where the lots are 8000 square feet. | 00:52:00 | |
I could see a whole bunch of tiny homes crowding out real fast, and there's your moderate income. But at the same time, at what | 00:52:07 | |
cost do you do that right? Well, whatever is most respectful for the existing residents, right? You know, whatever is most | 00:52:13 | |
respectful for the neighbors. | 00:52:20 | |
I think I agree with that. | 00:52:26 | |
We saw. | 00:52:29 | |
In cases where they had an existing and newer home that had just been built and. | 00:52:34 | |
Couldn't call it rented or something. Everything problem. | 00:52:39 | |
Because it was on two small smalls, a lot and then two of the neighbors also they wanted it rezoned because those two neighbors | 00:52:44 | |
also wanted to build accessory dwelling unit. | 00:52:49 | |
That would have been a lot. I mean that. | 00:52:57 | |
Tripled, right, the residency in that little area on that little St. with small lots as opposed to if this, what we're talking | 00:52:59 | |
about happened then the one would have already been built in there and maybe the other one converts his garage, right? | 00:53:07 | |
But it doesn't create new buildings because they were wanting to build new buildings, right? | 00:53:17 | |
So and feel much more comfortable in doing that. | 00:53:23 | |
So they they can still build buildings and they can still build. | 00:53:28 | |
External Dwelling Units. | 00:53:35 | |
They just. | 00:53:37 | |
Rent them. Is that the distinction? No, they. They. | 00:53:39 | |
Did they have more than twice the lot size for those lots? No. That was the issue. They were trying to rezone it because they were | 00:53:43 | |
trying to so most of those properties in that area and largely for most R110 zones in the city. | 00:53:51 | |
We have neighborhoods which we call super conforming. | 00:53:59 | |
They're more than the minimum R110 zone. | 00:54:02 | |
So not enough to subdivide but. | 00:54:05 | |
Too small to plow. You know that type of situation where they they, they just have these massive backyards they don't know what to | 00:54:08 | |
do with? Mm-hmm. So they're kind of stuck. | 00:54:12 | |
They're stuck between the can't subdivide it to get an extra lot back there, but they're also not big enough to. | 00:54:17 | |
Accessory dwelling you in their backyard. | 00:54:23 | |
And that is, that is we are seeing that as a hindrance for most people. | 00:54:26 | |
Where they go straight down the street and they have a larger lot, maybe a different zone. | 00:54:30 | |
Umm. | 00:54:35 | |
And they're able to have that that accessory detached. We're talking about detached attached, absolutely. | 00:54:36 | |
You can put an addition on your house, put an attached garage, put it in, you know, an accessory dwelling above it, have at it if | 00:54:42 | |
they want to do that, they're they're perfectly within their right to do that, yeah. | 00:54:47 | |
It is the city tracking the success of moderate income. | 00:54:53 | |
We're making these changes. We say all this stuff and then do you, does the city know how many? | 00:54:59 | |
Moderate income based housing units there are in the city. | 00:55:05 | |
We have a pretty good idea. | 00:55:09 | |
Especially those that are. | 00:55:12 | |
And we have to report those numbers every year. So I guess I'm wondering if whatever we propose or whatever, can we attach a | 00:55:15 | |
guesstimate as to how much impact that would have if we said we did this. We think you know over the next decade we generate 24 | 00:55:22 | |
more moderate income housing. | 00:55:29 | |
And I think that would be useful to us in doing the analysis because you're right, if we're only seeing the guest houses which are | 00:55:37 | |
going to be rent free to a family member. | 00:55:43 | |
Um. | 00:55:49 | |
That didn't solve any moderate income housing. | 00:55:50 | |
And if it went on the rental market, it would be not for moderate income housing. | 00:55:53 | |
And I guess the larger discussion here. | 00:55:58 | |
By allowing smaller units and maybe not a tiny home, maybe it's you know. | 00:56:01 | |
Studio. | 00:56:07 | |
Pre built thing that a property owner can reasonably. | 00:56:08 | |
Put in their backyard and is that significantly different than adding on to a house? So if you're either locating it. | 00:56:12 | |
Further back on the property, so there's more privacy or you're adding it onto your house, it's you're still adding a dwelling | 00:56:21 | |
unit. | 00:56:26 | |
The location is. Can all the parking be managed on? | 00:56:31 | |
Can the impacts of putting? | 00:56:35 | |
Unit further back on the property. | 00:56:38 | |
Be managed with landscaping requirements. | 00:56:41 | |
Location of doorways, windows, other sorts of Can you mitigate impacts by allowing an external structure to be built? | 00:56:44 | |
And a more theoretical question is that if. | 00:56:54 | |
Significant changes in the. | 00:56:58 | |
Does that increase or decrease the value of the housing? | 00:57:01 | |
To the existing owners. | 00:57:05 | |
Is it, you know, does it increase it? | 00:57:08 | |
Dec. | 00:57:12 | |
And I guess other opportunities about, you know, with an aging population to how, how can that be managed? You know, you have | 00:57:13 | |
people who live in their house that maybe would like to. | 00:57:19 | |
Live in a detached structure, so. | 00:57:25 | |
If you've aged in your house and you would you say this is too much space, I want to have maybe my kids move into the house and | 00:57:29 | |
I'm going to go move into this one bedroom unit that. | 00:57:34 | |
More private than an internal unit. | 00:57:40 | |
So that's kind of the opportunities that you can create with allowing an external dwelling unit. | 00:57:43 | |
With less. | 00:57:49 | |
While still mitigating impacts of it. | 00:57:51 | |
I guess to Paul's point, though, to say it another word, you want to make sure that there's not a whole bunch of slumlords popping | 00:57:55 | |
up. Yeah, I mean, what? What? What? Really? You know, does it change the nature of housing and holiday? | 00:58:01 | |
And that. | 00:58:08 | |
And that, and if there are four or five of these on my street, is my house value going to go up or down? | 00:58:10 | |
Will it go up because someone says, Oh well yeah, you can do an Adu and pay part of your mortgage or that. Or does that make it a | 00:58:18 | |
less desirable neighborhood and drive the price down for the rest of the homes? | 00:58:25 | |
And you know on the note of ownership as well, when you have an Adu, the you can't have two separate owners. So it's still a | 00:58:36 | |
single owner they can rent. | 00:58:42 | |
Another person, but the owner would have to live on the site. | 00:58:49 | |
That wouldn't change in the code it. | 00:58:53 | |
Owner has to live on site in either unit. | 00:58:57 | |
But. | 00:59:00 | |
So they couldn't have two rentals. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to have two rentals. So you wouldn't rent a house and a tiny house. | 00:59:02 | |
So it's still owner controlled? | 00:59:09 | |
Can I change the subject for a second? Because there's another issue in here that is troubling me and that's the issue of the | 00:59:13 | |
lighting. | 00:59:17 | |
And it just looks like you've. | 00:59:21 | |
Taken out all of the reference to dark sky compliance and LED lighting and so forth. | 00:59:24 | |
Yeah, I think, I think the the current language and the proposed changes it's it wouldn't necessarily be removing everything | 00:59:36 | |
that's there. So anything that is there can still remain. | 00:59:42 | |
The and especially with lighting, that's something that we could include. | 00:59:49 | |
Where it would be external dwelling units that maybe have more of a lighting impact. You definitely want to have dark sky | 00:59:54 | |
compliant fixtures, so you could say with an external Adu. | 00:59:59 | |
You have to have Dark Sky compliant fixtures. | 01:00:05 | |
Other thoughts, Commissioners? | 01:00:15 | |
Everybody's excited. They can't wait to add a Adu in their backyard. | 01:00:17 | |
I think in. | 01:00:21 | |
Strikes a balance between sort of. | 01:00:23 | |
Maintaining a neighborhood. | 01:00:27 | |
Well. | 01:00:29 | |
The Valley is going to get three times denser in the next, you know, whatever. Maybe not three times, but you know, the whole | 01:00:31 | |
value is getting denser. Let's put it all in somebody else's city. That, that. | 01:00:37 | |
Both unrealistic and maybe irresponsible. So adus to me even if we get. | 01:00:46 | |
A lot of them. | 01:00:52 | |
Seem like they'll still feel residential as opposed to saying let's build high rises. | 01:00:53 | |
And I would be willing to live in an Adu, but I don't want to live in a high rise. I have kids. I want access to a yard so it | 01:00:58 | |
feels like. | 01:01:02 | |
This is the kind of densification that I want as the resident of holiday. | 01:01:07 | |
Umm. | 01:01:13 | |
Because I would. I would be willing to live in a house with an Adu. I'd be willing to have an Adu if it were, you know, big | 01:01:14 | |
enough. | 01:01:16 | |
It seems like that's a nice way to keep it residential, to keep it so that owners are controlling who's in their Adu. | 01:01:21 | |
Umm. | 01:01:30 | |
While still being responsible and owning the growth that will happen in the in the Valley. | 01:01:31 | |
That's a really nice way to put it. I want to put it in another city. | 01:01:37 | |
Well I mean I think there's, I think there's space for different kinds of development. I think there are are lots of places that | 01:01:44 | |
we should and. | 01:01:47 | |
Have high rises, but I think that density itself is is not bad and to put it all somewhere else, I think it makes it less nice | 01:01:52 | |
density. | 01:01:57 | |
It does bring up one question which ties back to our favorite Planning Commission subject, which is the parking. | 01:02:03 | |
Right. I mean, you have these these sheds, these other things that now are accessory dwelling units, but they still have their | 01:02:09 | |
existing 1960s one, maybe two car driveway. Where do these new residents park? Right. And looking at some of the code so I could | 01:02:17 | |
bring some proposed options, some cities say that your parking for an Adu can't be tandem part. So if you'd like to see something | 01:02:24 | |
as specific as that, you could it would have to be, you know? | 01:02:32 | |
To the side of existing required garage spaces for. | 01:02:40 | |
For a primary structure. So there are ways to be specific about parking requirements for an external Adu. | 01:02:43 | |
So when you view an external Adu as. | 01:02:50 | |
I guess special privilege in some sense, right? Yes, you can be allowed this use, but there are impacts with that. | 01:02:55 | |
So thus with the impacts, we can put more specific requirements relating to those to those impacts. | 01:03:03 | |
I really love the idea of dealing with the tandem parking issue. | 01:03:11 | |
On the one across from the park and when we had that silly proposal about tandem parking with, you know, who's in front, who's in | 01:03:17 | |
back, you know, two different residents arguing over, you know, and waking each other up to go to work in the morning and that | 01:03:23 | |
and. | 01:03:28 | |
Yeah, I think it's time to address Tandem. | 01:03:35 | |
And I can look at that and see what existing code is in other cities on how they are managing that with external ads specifically. | 01:03:39 | |
Well, do you need any more feedback or input on this to be able to move forward with something to? | 01:03:49 | |
Feel pretty good at 8:45 at night, Yes, I think we're we're good on that. Our next meeting would be the 5th of December so we can | 01:03:56 | |
come back. That gives us a couple weeks to have some proposed text. | 01:04:02 | |
For these three text amendments. | 01:04:09 | |
OK, I had an item that I wanted to ask about. I was looking for Planning Commission dates because I couldn't find my 2023. | 01:04:12 | |
Handy dandy calendar. | 01:04:23 | |
And. | 01:04:25 | |
Couldn't find it anywhere on the city website, which it may be somewhere, but I couldn't find it easily and that brought to my | 01:04:26 | |
attention that the Planning Commission page is out of date. | 01:04:32 | |
Even more so, because now we have Mr. Barrett. | 01:04:39 | |
Who is also not on here, so I think it's time to get this updated and make sure that the calendar is available. | 01:04:42 | |
On the website so that when me planning commissioners can't find their meeting schedule. | 01:04:54 | |
Actually can somewhere, is that a reasonable? Aye, aye. Would you like a motion because we could do that for you. It's it's not | 01:05:01 | |
just the planning departments, it's out of date. Yeah. So yeah, and we are. So the city is updating the website overall right now. | 01:05:08 | |
So that is something that staff is working on is updating all the website. | 01:05:15 | |
Please make sure we have access to this and we don't have to like go find an agenda somewhere that. Yeah. And then just on the | 01:05:24 | |
note of calendars real quick. So thank you for providing the 2024. It was pointed out that in December we have two December nights | 01:05:30 | |
and two December 20 thirds on this draft. | 01:05:36 | |
There's there's a few months. There's more than that. Oh, there's more. OK, so I I have my circled copy of Dates to fix, so we'll | 01:05:42 | |
get those corrected, OK. | 01:05:47 | |
Cool. Excel loves different types of numbers, right? | 01:05:52 | |
OK, so December 5th is the next planned meeting then? Yes. OK. Could we also get a roster of? |