Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge? Click Here
No Bookmarks Exist.
Give me just a minute. 00:00:01
Fantastic. So with that, this is the Holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 5:34 PM on. 00:00:03
That's not right. 00:00:14
January 23rd 2024 and. 00:00:17
In attendance we have Commissioner Baron, Commissioner Gong, Chair Rd. Commissioner for. 00:00:21
Mr. Cunningham. 00:00:28
City staff and council, and with that we have one item on the agenda. 00:00:31
Tonight and it is the text amendment around accessory dwelling units and carries going to present on that and then are we going to 00:00:37
have our guests present during the work meeting or during the public hearing. 00:00:44
I will have Anne Garcia present during the public meeting. 00:00:52
Perfect. Perfect. With that, then I will turn it over to you and let's talk about Adus and all the fun they have. 00:00:59
So I guess do we want to start with any questions that any of you had on the proposed changes? 00:01:06
I know we had a discussion on this in October, November. 00:01:13
The biggest change on it is. 00:01:18
Well, I guess a few key changes defining the owner occupancy that is consistent with the home occupations so that it matches up as 00:01:22
having a formal definition within both of those as to what an owner occupied is. 00:01:29
Yes, owner occupied. 00:01:40
Blood marriage. 00:01:43
Means that the owner can never has to live. 00:01:45
As long as one of those people does so, that could be a Ranger. 00:01:51
My cousin. 00:01:57
Thank you cousin his friends. 00:01:59
Live in. 00:02:04
As long as. 00:02:07
Is OK. 00:02:09
Then we will pretend that the owner doesn't. 00:02:11
And that's owner occupancy can be a little bit tricky. We run into that issue with enforcement as well. How do you verify if you 00:02:15
have? 00:02:19
And we do have the property ownership affidavit, so it would be stated, here's the property owner whoever's listed on the title 00:02:24
deed, and then the agent would be a family member. 00:02:30
And you run into things with. 00:02:40
You have a lot of properties and Holiday are owned by LLC's or they'll put the property in an LLC specific for the property. 00:02:43
Sometimes it's a family trust. 00:02:48
So where there's so many family trusts, LLCS, various things that kind of. 00:02:55
I think just some consistency there as to what a family member. 00:03:00
Is defined as. 00:03:05
And the other major part on that is adding. 00:03:11
The standards for if you were to convert an existing accessory building. 00:03:16
A lot of those are going to be closer in setbacks. 00:03:22
Some of them may have a doorway or windows on a property line side, so how do you address those? So having some standards in the 00:03:27
code to address converting existing, that was the main direction from the City Council was we want to look at how we can convert 00:03:34
existing accessory buildings, so that's what adding that section is. 00:03:41
We did also remove the lot minimum size. 00:03:51
Of half an acre or twice the minimum lot size. As you've seen with some of our conditional use permits for building footprint 00:03:55
size, they're typically on properties that are half an acre or larger and they're wanting to put a bigger house. So properties 00:04:04
they can't subdivide but want to have a larger structure on there or a larger accessory building with a accessory unit. 00:04:12
And that was consistent. The reasoning behind removing nuts is because we have the guest house allowance on half an acre or larger 00:04:23
properties and consistent with the polling data that we had from when we initially did the accessory dwelling unit text in 2021. 00:04:32
The history with adding that half an acre and twice the minimum lot size, that was an addition that was added in after it was 00:04:44
recommended by Planning Commission by the City Council. 00:04:49
So Planning Commission initially didn't have that qualification in when we when you made the recommendation or when they made the 00:04:56
recommendations to the council and then that was added in by City Council after the public hearing there. 00:05:02
So can I ask the tough question? Are they asking for recommendation on should they make this change? 00:05:11
Or are they asking for recommendation on? Are these the changes that would carry out the direction that they want to go? 00:05:18
That's. 00:05:27
Well, just to the the preface if and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but this is a state mandated legislative change that we're 00:05:30
falling in compliance with by making these changes or no. So the moderate income housing goals is the state is looking for actual 00:05:39
application of the strategies. So we have strategies to meet our moderate income housing goals. 00:05:48
And then they want in the reporting for moderate income housing, how are we actually meeting those? How are we taking action on 00:05:58
those strategies? So the strategy that's outlined in the staff report is to reduce regulations related to accessory dwelling 00:06:05
units, but there's no current statute or no requirement from the legislature currently to have have it applied to all zones in the 00:06:11
city. 00:06:18
No, OK. 00:06:26
So and to clarify on that, if we just were to water the text amendment down to one thing, would that be considered meeting the 00:06:29
qualification of modification or is there a certain number of them that have to be adjusted? Yeah. 00:06:35
Any any sort of modification. So if we just change one thing that made it a little bit looser on the very minor minor detail check 00:06:43
that box right. And then down the line as we're reporting on that is that effective, has that actually produced any housing units 00:06:50
And so that's kind of the point where we're looking at that half acre size. Yes, we've had some applications for accessory 00:06:57
dwelling units on half acre lots, but we're not getting the. 00:07:04
For and, there's some internal accessory building units or attached to the main house. 00:07:12
So we do get permits on those. Those are in the staff report. 00:07:17
But we do deny applications for if they're not 1/2 acre and they want to do an external accessory going in it. 00:07:22
And it isn't really driving. This is the one. 00:07:29
Accessory unit will be setting. 00:07:34
That that was. 00:07:39
What brought it to the council's attention is they said OK, well, rezoning is a strategy in our general plan to meet moderate 00:07:42
income housing goals. If we're not going to necessarily rezone, maybe we need to look at our Adu ordinance and so specifically 00:07:49
looking at converting existing accessory growing units. 00:07:55
As a way to meet smaller income housing goals. 00:08:02
And is Does that boil down? 00:08:05
Allowing ad. 00:08:09
On smaller properties. 00:08:12
And one is currently allowed. 00:08:14
So those two properties we I think that case that college referring to, there were three different owners that came in all. 00:08:18
And there were two of the properties that they wanted to rezone because they weren't large enough properties to put. 00:08:28
And accessory dwelling again. So with this text amendment they would be able to go ahead. 00:08:37
And build. 00:08:44
Right. So if you're looking at those three properties, one is .16 acres has an existing accessory detached building that has a 00:08:48
studio or basement unit basement, it's bonus space. So they can't use it as a dwelling unit. So it's just bonus space. So that 00:08:56
amending the text to allow for the conversion of existing. 00:09:04
Accessory buildings to dwelling units would allow that property owner to converge their accessory volume unit or their accessory 00:09:14
building to an accessory dwelling unit. The other two properties, one is .40 acres, I think the other one is .30 acres. Neither of 00:09:21
those properties could build an accessory loan unit with this text amendment. With the text amendment if you remove the half acre 00:09:29
lot size minimum that they could. 00:09:36
But as is, they cannot. 00:09:44
Kerry, correct me if I'm wrong. So this was about a year ago, the Planning Commission reviewed our moderating maybe just two years 00:09:48
ago now moderate income housing plan and legislature mandated and we had to have, we had to pick if I remember it, there had to be 00:09:55
like 7. They offered what was it 30 different strategies and we had to choose at least seven as part of your moderate income 00:10:03
housing plan. I may be off on those two numbers, but there was a number that you had to choose and the city had could. 00:10:10
City Council could choose whichever one they wanted, but because it's the land use. 00:10:18
An element to the general plan, the Planning Commission had to do that. So we adopted that and one of the things that the moderate 00:10:22
income housing element that Ledma requires. 00:10:27
That's the Land Use Development Management Act. It's 10984 O3 in the general Plan, preparation of which the Moderate Income 00:10:34
Housing Plan is a part of that, but it says. 00:10:39
Each General Plan or Moderate Income Housing Plan has to have a component that. 00:10:45
A provides A realistic opportunity to meet the need for additional moderate income housing within the municipality during the next 00:10:51
five years, and there's also reporting requirement annually on that for a city the size of holiday and I can't remember the floor 00:10:57
on that, but holiday meets that requirement so they have to report back to DWS. 00:11:03
There once the initial requirement was to. 00:11:10
Have a moderate income housing. 00:11:14
The second, the next year, is to report back on progress made in. 00:11:16
Either adopting more. 00:11:22
Liberal policies that allow for more modern housing to be developed within your municipality. So that's what this is also part of. 00:11:25
It's not just. 00:11:29
That that came up with that. 00:11:35
That those particular things came to the attention of the City Council. It's also the legislature is requiring cities to do this. 00:11:38
So these are taking from the strategies that we adopted and implementing them. So and it can introduce Ann Garcia Housing Director 00:11:45
and she you can she can answer any questions for you as well on what those moderate income housing bills are what direction from 00:11:52
City Council from the city manager has been. 00:12:00
And do you want to? 00:12:08
Introduce yourself and maybe give a little bit of background as we're all talking about it. 00:12:09
Economic Development and Housing Manager. 00:12:16
We have 26 strategies that we needed to choose from. The city decided to choose six out of those. 00:12:20
Strategies to focus on and the strategies you have to have actions associated with each strategy in addition to task. 00:12:29
That you need to comply with and report on. So every year you have to report on. Last year was first year reporting on that. 00:12:37
We did approve the revision to the Moderate Income Housing Plan in February of 23. 00:12:45
And the reporting. 00:12:53
Was due August 1st. 00:12:56
And it was very challenging. 00:12:59
Because we could only report on. 00:13:02
Actions that were completed. 00:13:06
From the date that your plan was approved. 00:13:09
Which was February, so we. 00:13:14
Six months to report on action, so we didn't have that much to to report on and one of them was Strategy E, which is to create an 00:13:17
associated with ADUS so. 00:13:23
I don't know if that if you have any other questions. No, we did memory serves going back to this. 00:13:30
We did make some kind of modification to. 00:13:37
Attached dwelling units did we not, did we not approve some kind of something that changed and loosened the? 00:13:40
Requirements around Adus or am I dreaming right up in my head? Yes, we did. But that was that was outside of this. That was 00:13:48
required anyway. Basically the legislature just said. 00:13:52
I don't care what your ordinances say internally to use are allowed. OK, so that one was that one was the state saying do this. 00:13:58
And our initial 80 ordinance was created, so adding the text in 2021. So we looked at you know internal Adus, but then also by 00:14:08
external ADUS. The state does allow more regulation around external Adus because they do realize that's a unit that's outside of a 00:14:16
main structure. So cities should have some say over set back or. 00:14:24
Windows, doors, other things. Those can be more regulated. Lot size, another thing. 00:14:33
So. 00:14:40
That's where those regulations for the external AD use originated from. 00:14:41
We were given 26 options. 00:14:47
And we adopted 66, yes. So if you, if you were to go back and look at those. 00:14:49
With a city like holiday in which I would describe as mature and near build out. 00:14:56
You couldn't have adopted any of the other 20. 00:15:02
I mean, I have to go back and look at all of them and review them. But my recollection is if you are a city that had no vacant 00:15:06
land, your ability to adopt those was very, very limited. 00:15:11
And you were basically here's your option internally externally to use accessory buildings, smaller lot sizes on redevelopment. I 00:15:17
mean those are your strategies that you. 00:15:21
You were pretty much funneled into. These are your options. 00:15:27
Pick any color you want, as long as it's black and what are the penalties. 00:15:30
If we don't, the penalties. 00:15:34
There I think they get my recollection is I should have looked at them for this, but they there's access to the Olean Walker 00:15:39
Moderate Income Housing Fund or Low Income Housing Fund that gets and there's also some transportation dollars that get come off 00:15:45
the table and they get increasingly more punitive. 00:15:52
The further out you go from compliance, from the reporting requirements and all those things memory serves, it was like you had to 00:15:59
have four or five to just not get in trouble. And then if you've got six, it was like there's the bonus money, right, right 00:16:03
strategies if you report on them. 00:16:08
On five strategies, then you are allowed to apply for the. 00:16:14
Transportation dollars, if you don't have anything and you don't have a plan or a report that is in compliance, there's some fees 00:16:19
associated with that. Yeah, there was some actual dollars that had to be paid out if you weren't in compliance with the 00:16:25
requirement by. 00:16:31
I can't. What was it? It was it may, I think or something like that. Well, after reporting you're given like 90 days to get in 00:16:38
compliance if you're not. So yeah, so there was, yeah, but it was a per day fine if you were out of compliance. And again it there 00:16:44
were four requirements. You had to be a city of a certain size population wise before they triggered those penalties. So tiny town 00:16:50
Utah didn't get. 00:16:56
Eaten away when they have a $12,000 budget and they just had to pay $10,000. 00:17:03
In fees and fines to the Department of Workforce Services. 00:17:09
I have a question. 00:17:13
Self report there's a table that talks about. 00:17:16
Application are those active applications right now that the staff is looking at for internal use, external use? 00:17:21
So do you have any sense? 00:17:29
Yeah, this doesn't seem like very high numbers. So, so. 00:17:32
My question is do we have any sense of if this ordinance changes, how much demand there is, is there going to be something 300 00:17:38
people who want to build Navy, you think it will be instead of eight, there will be 15 like do we, do we have any sense of of how 00:17:44
many people might be interested in this when it changes? 00:17:49
Conversations I've had with people that kind of intensity we have open counter time. People come in and say, you know, I want to 00:17:55
build. 00:17:58
Detached garage and I want to put a dwelling unit above it, one bedroom or studio. I want to have something above my garage 00:18:03
because I'm already building a detached garage. 00:18:08
Typically those are on lots that are smaller than half an acre and we repeated or regularly have to tell people that you can't do 00:18:14
a dwelling unit, you can build it. 00:18:19
It can be bonus space, but it can't actually count as a dwelling unit. 00:18:25
So, so you think it'll it'll go up, it would probably be similar to what we're seeing with internal Adus. It's not going to be 00:18:33
huge when you think of you as a property owner it it takes somebody who actually wants to have that use on their property, right? 00:18:41
If that's something that you want to have on your property and you have the capital to build it. 00:18:52
And then we'd see a permit for it. 00:18:58
Do we have any other questions for? 00:19:01
And she's standing at the front end, just eagerly awaiting. 00:19:03
Is there a separate, I like that, I love that chart. It was great to see it. But that's kind of a proxy for modern income housing, 00:19:07
not necessarily you could have. 00:19:12
A rent on a for $3000 on one and therefore it didn't create any moderate income housing. 00:19:18
You have other things happening with apartments being built and with Holiday Hills. Is that also not contributing to our 00:19:26
commitment to have moderate income housing? 00:19:31
Those units are are contributing because we're looking at total unit count, is that right, Anne? 00:19:38
When we're looking at moderate income housing goals, the units that are going to be coming online with Holiday Hills 100. 00:19:45
Yeah, Yeah. We're looking at 100 units. 00:19:54
What is our metric that says we're we're down tinkering with the zoning because we are meeting the dollar? 00:20:01
Umm, typically it's an ongoing process. You're always going to have applications for rezoning. 00:20:10
That's going to be a continual, especially as a community that's built out, what areas are going to transition into higher uses? 00:20:17
And that's pretty standard across all cities and there's a progress report annually. So you you can't. 00:20:26
Just stop progress. You have to be able to show that you. 00:20:35
Moving forward and providing some form of affordability for our residents in whatever capacity, is there a definition for 00:20:40
moderate? Because it feels like moderate income and holiday would actually be a different definition than moderate income in Rose 00:20:47
Park. So is it relative to the average housing price? How's that measured? Yes, it is. There is. 00:20:54
See here. Good question because it's based off of. 00:21:02
The media enter the area, so it's some percentage of median income that it would say people would allocate to housing. So you look 00:21:07
at that, the area median income of Salt Lake County and that's what we use. So that median income is $106,000. 00:21:15
And then so then you're looking at 80% and below which is considered moderate 850 to 80% of your salary. Of that 108,000 that's 00:21:24
going to be your bracket, 80% would still be considered moderate income housing. So it's not necessarily that we're looking to 00:21:32
solve affordable housing goods that meeting the the moderate housing goal. You know there's that's considered a full but something 00:21:41
that. 00:21:49
Matches with the. 00:21:57
Typical salary that you'd see in an area, got it. So that's. So I mean that's $50,000 a year. 00:22:00
50 to $60,000 a year, 1200 bucks a month is what we're talking about for and you're looking at. 00:22:08
The rent range 1074 to 1716. 00:22:16
Yeah. And that's another new construction, Yeah. And that's going to be filling in that area. When you think of like, OK, what if 00:22:21
I were looking for a rental and holiday that's between 1000 to 1500 a month. It's going to be like a one bedroom apartment or a 00:22:27
basement apartment. 00:22:34
Or possibly an Adu. It's not necessarily going to be a guest house that somebody's building on half an acre property. It's. 00:22:41
More typically going to be something that somebody's either built a kind of attached unit that's more separated to their main 00:22:49
house or. 00:22:54
Converted a. 00:23:00
Detached garage that they don't need something like that, you know it's how are you? 00:23:02
Yeah, it's typical. Rents are usually you're based in apartments and smaller units. 00:23:09
Question I have, if I may on this. 00:23:14
If this, the text amendment gets approved to understand the intent is to allow pretty much everyone anywhere in the city to create 00:23:17
these EADUS with defined parameters around them. But does that also open the door for new development to come in and say, oh look, 00:23:24
I can put in an entire row of houses on these tiny lots and there's just enough room that I can put a bunch of rental garages 00:23:31
behind each one of them. And now all of a sudden we have 80 houses where? 00:23:39
40 we're. 00:23:46
I mean when if you have a. 00:23:49
Company that buys 1020 lots at holidays, land prices and builds tiny houses on all of them. 00:23:53
Is that actually going to happen? I mean, is it likely, right? I get that, but I'm just going to understand how this could impact 00:24:04
future development. Or I mean, it could also be that somebody who buys a house and it's maybe their first house that they buy, 00:24:11
they can stay there longer because now they can build. 00:24:17
Accessory unit or it makes it affordable for somebody to buy a house because they can have a basement that they can rent out. 00:24:23
That's a pretty standard thing when you're just starting out. It's oh, I I don't have any kids yet. I'm going to buy a house and 00:24:31
then I can rent out the basement. So being able to have some sort of the dwelling unit that you can add to your property, either 00:24:39
converting something internally or as your family grows that you can now build an external unit and maintain that. 00:24:47
Kind of rental. 00:24:55
Yeah, I have a question and a comment. Question is. 00:24:58
Do we really have a choice? 00:25:03
You you do have a choice and it's but it's the pressure I think increases as we as we go along because if you you can. 00:25:08
Even if you make changes, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's you're going to have applications. In this case, I can tell you 00:25:18
that if you made the change tonight to remove that half acre lot size minimum, you'd have two applications right away. 00:25:26
Those two are .47 and .48 acres. 00:25:35
They can't do any of you. One of those I know is on a corner lot, so their access for the Adu is on one St. their houses on the 00:25:38
other street. 00:25:41
And so the decisions that we make now are not so concerning to me. You know, that's two more. 00:25:46
But what does concern me is, as Dennis said, it's what does this look like into the future and I think. 00:25:55
One of the things that we need to safeguard is what we all love about holiday. 00:26:03
And I don't think that what you're. 00:26:10
Suggesting here is so outlandish. 00:26:13
I think that it is entirely possible that somebody could buy up some land and build some small homes and say, oh, I've got a 00:26:16
little bit of space in the back. I'm going to build 10 little Adus in the back as well because I'm not going to violate any 00:26:22
ordinances if I do that and. 00:26:28
I've seen this happen in communities in California where every square inch of dirt gets built on and there's no place to park and 00:26:35
everybody's parking on the street and and it just happens over time. 00:26:42
And what we love about our. 00:26:50
He wrote, and it erodes. 00:26:54
And so while we sit here tonight and we say, well, this doesn't seem so bad, you know, it's eight now and it's. 00:26:57
Five next year it might be 3 the year after that, and that doesn't seem so bad and before we know it. 00:27:04
We've paved paradise. 00:27:11
You know, and and that's what concerns me about this, this whole thing and that's why I asked about penalties and. 00:27:14
Whether we have options and so forth, so that's what I want us to consider. 00:27:21
Two other comments. 00:27:29
One is the timing. We're we're way ahead of the curve. I just went on unincorporated counties website, you're doing a survey to 00:27:32
see what they should do for external ADUS. 00:27:37
They're not in any hurry. They say right in their plan that they don't have the plan ready in 2025. 00:27:42
They're just doing the survey. Invited me to take the survey because apparently they can't tell whether you live in their 00:27:48
catchment area and then we only. 00:27:53
The ordinance itself was done in 2021, which is 2 years ago. 00:27:58
We've only actually. 00:28:04
Last year did something that's been less than a year and we're ready to change the ordinance again mainly driven I think because 00:28:05
of. 00:28:09
Two particular people. 00:28:13
And that I don't know why we're in a rush to change the ordinance. I do agree with one gentleman who wrote in it said why are we 00:28:16
in such a hurry? 00:28:20
To declare that it's not working and we need to do the next thing. Will be one of the very first cities to do this. I don't know 00:28:26
why we need to be the first city to do this. 00:28:30
There'll be a day when the legislature makes this do it, but right now, if we do this, my belief is that. 00:28:37
The development community will use holiday as leverage to tell a little holiday can do it, Anyone can do it. 00:28:45
And with that, I'm just going to pause real quick on the questions. We're at 603 and I'm just going to go ahead and close the work 00:28:53
meeting and then open the official meeting unless there's any reason not to. And I, since we don't have any members of the public 00:28:59
here, we'll go ahead and nominate the opening statement that we read and then we can continue the discussion. 00:29:06
So just for the record check mark. 00:29:13
But good, good comments and I guess just kind of along those same lines. 00:29:17
Before we go on with any further questions around the current text amendment, since the point has been brought up about just 00:29:22
concerns. 00:29:25
Of the intent and the scope of it thus far, some of our other commissioners gone, Baron Vilchinski, do you have similar thoughts 00:29:29
or concerns around that or opposing thoughts or concerns around that before we further the discussions? 00:29:35
I do observe the same thought. We put it very well, and in looking over there, they immediately thought. 00:29:43
So when it resulting application that we have. 00:29:51
And the amount of public that came out for that and your concerns? 00:29:56
And why they were OPP. 00:30:01
And so it concerns me changing the text or recommending changing the text and allowing. 00:30:04
For that same scenario to happen, knowing that we've had. 00:30:13
Citizens come forward and. 00:30:18
Opposed. 00:30:21
I don't feel like we can necessarily ignore. 00:30:23
OK, good comments, Commissioner, Baron or Commissioner gone? 00:30:29
Well, I just listening to all this, I wasn't a part of the previous discussion, so I appreciate the update. 00:30:32
Your input. 00:30:39
Have we had a lot of problems with this? 00:30:42
Obviously there's a couple of examples, but if somebody were to come in and get a building permit for an accessory building? 00:30:45
Garage storage that whatever you want as long as they met the. 00:30:53
Lot coverage, setbacks, building separation. We would issue a building permit, right? Yes. So we would issue a building permit for 00:30:59
an accessory building. 00:31:03
So is the concern that people might be living there at some point in time? 00:31:08
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I'm trying to figure out also what what we're envisioning is going to happen with 00:31:14
this. 00:31:17
And I don't have the history that you do. So I apologize if I'm stepping on a base toes and I don't mean to, but. 00:31:23
I think by the nature of the fact that the ordinance creates setbacks and additional things. 00:31:30
For these type of units doesn. 00:31:37
To some degree, mitigate the. 00:31:40
Right. 00:31:42
And that's that is the intention of. 00:31:44
Well, we can already build accessory buildings. If it's going to be a dwelling unit, how do you offset the impacts of that? 00:31:48
Considering. 00:31:56
The impacts of an internal accessory dwelling unit versus a external. Your parking is going to be the same. If you have a dwelling 00:31:58
unit that you're adding on to a house, you're adding one to two cars for that accessory dwelling unit, whether it's inside of a 00:32:05
house or outside of a house. So parking, long unit, accessory interior, exterior, they can only have one accessory dwelling unit 00:32:12
on the property. They can't have a basement unit and an external unit. 00:32:20
So it's limited to 1 accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:27
When you're with so the parking that's largely addressed, you're going to have that impact either way because we already allow an 00:32:32
internal accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:36
The impact is that you're having a dwelling unit that's closer to property lines and how is that then regulated and I think that. 00:32:42
What we discussed when we were looking at that R2 zone, so in R. 00:32:54
By creating smaller bots. 00:32:58
You're setting your property or your building further away from your property lines, so that's and I think that's sometimes missed 00:33:01
with the public. They just see it as density increasing. We're adding more units that aren't there currently, even though you have 00:33:07
a .4 acre lot. 00:33:13
An R2 zone would have allowed them to put another unit or two units on there. So now without having the R2 zone and they can't 00:33:20
subdivide, people are looking at accessory units. If you're building an accessory unit as a homeowner, you're going to locate it 00:33:26
further away. 00:33:32
So you get smaller setbacks with accessory units, so as a trade off. 00:33:39
Argue is there any logic in just making any type of accessory dwelling unit? 00:33:44
Have the same setbacks as the primary. 00:33:51
There are cities that do that. I think that Cottonwood Heights has that. That's pretty common. 00:33:54
So I mean, there's no advantage then? 00:34:00
The Accessory Dwelling. 00:34:04
And you keep within the setbacks of the building envelope. 00:34:05
Right. So does that make sense to everybody or so then you might have like I think our smallest rear yard setback is 25 feet. 00:34:11
So if you were going to do an external accessory dwelling unit, you'd have to have it be. 00:34:22
25 feet in and then whatever your side set back is, and that might be 5 feet, 8 feet. 00:34:28
And this makes it much smaller because this matches in the accessory building, which can be quite close, right? Right. 00:34:35
In addition to that, doesn't it also allow for the conversion of existing accessory buildings, which even if they're legal non 00:34:42
conforming, they can still be modified under this ordinance? 00:34:47
Right, the proposal, right. So if you have a shed in the back that you can't build today, but was built legally 20 years ago, you 00:34:52
can convert that to an accessory dwelling unit and even add a story onto it if you wanted to. 00:34:58
Right, but you just couldn't have windows opening on exterior side of adding windows. And if you're adding. 00:35:05
The text includes, if you're adding a second level onto it. One, you're still going to have to meet a graduated height 00:35:13
requirement. So if your building is really close to the property line, if it's existing and you're adding a second level. 00:35:19
Our graduated heights is like a 45° angle over from 8 feet up, so you go 8 feet up on the property line. 00:35:27
And at 45° over and your building can't be in or, it can't be outside of that 45° angle, so you're 80. You wouldn't be looking 00:35:34
over your neighbors right then. And so that's. We run into that With detached garages, it can't. 00:35:40
People want them to be super close, but a lot of times if they're going above a certain height, they have to back them away 00:35:48
anyway. So if you're going to a full 20 foot height, you probably have to back that away even further. 00:35:55
And then the second story window you can have any windows on. 00:36:03
On the property sides, just a slanted room you can have. You can have a clear story window that's six feet above so that you're 00:36:09
not having. If you have a second level or you have an accessory unit, you're not having windows that people can look out of on 00:36:15
neighboring property sites. 00:36:20
So what's the advantage to doing this? I mean if you got an existing, existing, existing unit? 00:36:33
I mean, I can understand why people would be concerned too then. 00:36:41
You know this to me doesn. 00:36:46
Makes sense that we're going to go ahead and promote people who have done something that. 00:36:47
Allowed the accessory building to be at 3 feet or five feet, whatever it is, and now we're going to go ahead and build. 00:36:53
Of actual dwelling unit there to me. 00:36:59
I worry about this existing stuff. 00:37:03
That was the concern as well is if we're looking at external external dwelling units, staff preference is to just have it meet the 00:37:06
standards from the beginning if you have an existing building. 00:37:13
That is already there. 00:37:21
Maybe you can't have any dwelling space in that, that you can add on to it and put dwelling space outside of that that needs the 00:37:23
standards. I mean, what you're suggesting to me meets. 00:37:28
Intent of the goal that the legislature's provided us. So I don't think we're, I think we're protecting the neighborhood, but also 00:37:34
meeting. 00:37:38
Expectation of the. 00:37:43
So in my mind that's where I would like to see this. 00:37:46
Because I think, and unfortunately too many things are existing. 00:37:50
And may not be legal at some point in. 00:37:54
And when you have non conforming in these kind of statements you all of a sudden things get really they can become very difficult 00:37:56
to. 00:38:01
Regulate. 00:38:06
I mean, just to give an example, I have a greenhouse in my backyard, right? And it's probably. 00:38:08
10 feet from the property line at the back and it's a big greenhouse I built in the I don't know, it's an aluminum frame, but the 00:38:14
footprint is there and it's an accessory building, right? And probably non conforming. I don't know. It's a mess, but. 00:38:22
I could if this were to pass as it's currently written because and find you I'm on 1/4 acre lot. This is not a big lot, right? 00:38:31
This is a small lot with a small split level home on it. 00:38:36
But if this. 00:38:43
Theoretically, and I go through, you know, the building permit process. 00:38:45
I could go in and I could put a two-story building in my backyard. As long as the windows don't face the neighbors and it's not 00:38:49
taller than my existing house, I now have a two-story home right behind my home. 00:38:56
That I can do as rental income or whatever. 00:39:03
I want it because it's a dwelling unit, right? And that depends on the set back. So if you're adding a second level on, it still 00:39:06
would have to meet the graduated height and if your existing footprint is. 00:39:12
Close to the property line, then you wouldn't be able to add a second. Well, I got 10 feet. I got, I got at least 10 feet. So I 00:39:18
got a good buffer. I'll meet that 45, no problem. But you run into that with any accessories unit. So it's just been adding the 00:39:24
dwelling unit portion. And we have people who call about their neighbors building a detached garage there. I guess too close to 00:39:30
the property line, it's too tall, but. 00:39:37
It's perfectly legal. 00:39:44
So they're meeting all the standards of graduated height. They're meeting the standards of. 00:39:46
Building heights setbacks. 00:39:50
That's all within those standards, but people don't like even just a detached accessory building. 00:39:53
That's large. 00:40:00
So I think the the concern I might be just echoing which is everybody, well most of the Commissioners on here voice which is. 00:40:02
We're opening this Pandora's box, so to speak, and I can already tell you that a third of my neighbors would be very unhappy if I 00:40:12
replaced my dilapidated greenhouse with A2 story rental home. 00:40:18
Right. And so I'm, I'm wondering because I do understand the intent of what we're trying to do and I'm not trying to stop new 00:40:25
housing like we've got to accommodate like there's going to be 3,000,000 more people living in the Wasatch Front over the next 25 00:40:30
years. 00:40:35
At our current growth rate, right. I'm not saying they'll have to live in holiday, but we should accommodate some of it, right, 00:40:40
and not just take the knot in my backyard approach. So with that being said, what? 00:40:45
With the planning commissioners feels an appropriate amendment to what's been presented. 00:40:51
I'm not as concerned about the half, eight, less than half acre people that had their, you know, dwelling units that wanted to 00:41:29
build next door. But the guy that literally bought a house with a mother-in-law apartment, but because it didn't open in his home, 00:41:35
it opened on the side of his home, He couldn't use it as a dwelling unit. In my mind that's like. 00:41:41
Making somehow that to be legal. 00:41:48
Seems to make sense or you know, comply with the city ordinance. So I think whatever text amendment allows for that to be OK, 00:41:51
maybe not so much the neighbors with the .4 acre lot. 00:41:57
But that's just me chiming in on that. So with that I'll kind of turn it back over to the Planning Commission to I have 00:42:03
Commissioner Ruth, I had a quick option as we're talking about the second level. I mean an option could be that you could allow 00:42:09
single level accessory falling units. 00:42:16
If within that closer set back, if you wanted to add a second level, it would have to meet the. 00:42:23
Setbacks required for a main structure. 00:42:30
I think there's a a difference between. 00:42:35
Building a separate structure and the neighbors go crazy because there's a separate garage being built. 00:42:39
And building a separate structure that somebody's actually going to. 00:42:46
And I think that's where people go, whoa, there's going to be neighbors right there. 00:42:50
I. 00:42:58
And I feel. 00:43:01
This group that this is an issue that. 00:43:04
Might require that we continue the discussion. 00:43:08
I don't feel that we have enough information. It just seems to me that we're evaluating this in a vacuum. 00:43:13
We don't know what the alternatives are. I understand that. 00:43:21
That we have an issue here. We have a problem and we've got a problem that is probably going to have to be addressed. 00:43:25
By this. 00:43:33
And I think this is 1. 00:43:37
Possible. 00:43:40
I think there might be other solutions but. 00:43:42
Should come before this Comm. 00:43:45
I don't know that, but I think that's a possibility. 00:43:48
I I just feel like we're looking at this in a vacuum. 00:43:52
And it just doesn't feel right to me at this time. It doesn't feel like we have enough information. 00:43:55
OK. Appreciate that. 00:44:03
Commission Commissioner. Gonna, yeah. 00:44:07
I I really like the idea of eight years. I think it keeps things, it increases density, which obviously we must do. 00:44:11
While keeping things residential, I would much rather live in an Edu or a house with an Adu than I would a box Cond. 00:44:20
100. 00:44:28
I think it's. I think it keeps it feeling like holiday without without building up, but it does increase density my my memory of. 00:44:30
So my questions are, how will the neighbors interact? 00:44:43
So I think I the suggestion about keeping them lower. 00:44:50
I I'm really interested in that. 00:44:54
I don't yet have clarity about. 00:44:59
In my mind about because I like the idea of consistent converting an existing structure, I think that makes it accessible for 00:45:01
people who may not otherwise be able to do it. 00:45:07
And I think part of the modern income housing as well, who are they renting to? It's a smaller thing. But also as we mentioned, 00:45:13
the people who can afford to live in the Holiday House are now people who have another income stream. I think that's. 00:45:19
A good idea? So so making it easier for people to convert things. I think that's a good idea, but I'm not quite sure of all of 00:45:27
the. 00:45:30
Implications of that, but I I think ideas are a good idea and I like them much better than. 00:45:35
Building a giant holiday hills and I like it a lot more So. So my questions are how? How will we make it feel like it's not so 00:45:42
close, but still. 00:45:48
Let people convert existing things. I think another question I had. 00:45:53
The big thing with Butternut 50 neighbors showed up and they said we all hate the traffic. 00:45:58
I don't know. I think 30 years in the future there are going to be twice as many cars in the Valley. 00:46:03
Or people can drive less. I just think that's a change that will happen in the Valley and I don't know how to. I don't know what 00:46:10
that will look like in the interim because. 00:46:15
Parking will be harder, traffic will increase and I and I don't know how to address that because of course there will be more 00:46:21
cars, there will be more people. 00:46:25
But but everyone hates it, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to balance that because realistically. 00:46:32
Just it will get harder to drive. Hopefully it will get easier to take public transit, but but what will that look like in the 00:46:41
holiday? Holiday will be on the trailing end of that because we're not very dense. 00:46:46
Anyway, so that so those are my thoughts I don't know how to address people's concerns about. 00:46:52
Parking. 00:46:57
Accepting that very long term way in 30 and 40 years. 00:47:00
I hope you are driving. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not sure what that looks like because that's not a convincing thing 00:47:05
right now. I don't want a bunch of people parking on my Rd. 00:47:09
But, but how do we move towards that? I don't know. And I think it's an awkward interim stage we're in right now. Yeah, I've got 00:47:14
got transportation piece and leveraging, you know, our transportation lines. We have a bus route that goes from Central station, 00:47:22
Frontrunner of 45th, it goes across Highland Drive and then goes up through the village and then up 45th South and goes to the 00:47:30
park and ride. I think getting to EU from on the bus, taking the bus takes 2530 minutes. 00:47:38
Which is pretty reasonable. I live in Bountiful and I took the bus when I was going to you and it was faster to take the bus 00:47:47
rather than. 00:47:51
Rather than driving and paying for parking and dealing with all of that. So there might be some people, especially on our bus 00:47:56
lines, if there's an accessory unit that's close to that, people would think, yeah, I'm going to live in a successory unit. It's 00:48:03
small. I'm a student. I can afford to live in this backyard unit or in a basement unit. 00:48:09
And I can walk to the bus. 00:48:17
Maybe that reduces I don't have to have a car. That was same situation when I was in school. We only had one car, so I took the 00:48:19
bus, went to school, we had one car. 00:48:24
So it's it's a feasible thing for families, young couples. 00:48:29
Roommate situations. They might have just one car between them that they use for getting around and then taking the bus. So that 00:48:35
smaller unit does does limit sometimes. 00:48:41
Cars and people who are looking for rentals, they're going to look at parking or say, oh, I have two cars. Your Adu here only has 00:48:48
one parking spot, so I can't rent this because I can't park here. 00:48:54
You might have some people. You might have some people who are like, well, I have two cars and. 00:49:01
Venom grew lying on street parking, which then I have to move my car every 24 hours. That might not be something that they want to 00:49:08
do anyway. 00:49:11
So, so I mean just based on my experience and I've only been here for seven months, but that was a really big sticking point for 00:49:15
people. I'm reluctant to plan around that. I'm reluctant to say this is the sticking point, so let's. 00:49:23
Let's not do it, but it, but it does seem like a big. 00:49:32
Simple and just to clarify, Commissioner Gong, so your your primary concerns are kind of along the height restriction and the 00:49:37
parking requirement? 00:49:41
Or making sure there are height restrictions. I should say I I my my primary concerns are. 00:49:47
Yeah, How do you, how do you maintain a sense of privacy if we're allowing people to get much closer to the fence, which I think 00:49:53
we should, so that people can convert existing things? 00:49:58
One answer that is keep them low so that they're not wearing every background. I think that might be. 00:50:04
I appreciate and respect what you're saying, Commissioner. Gone. However, I purchased the home that I purchased here in. 00:50:09
Because of it has a large block or I'm just over 1/2 acre? 00:50:17
And we liked the outdoor living space that we have. 00:50:22
That currently my home is surrounded where my lot is. 00:50:26
Is kind of back in a cul-de-sac area and I am surrounded. I've got 8 doctors and neighbors. 00:50:30
They've got eight different backyards it. 00:50:37
Are around the. 00:50:41
And accessory dwelling in it. So all of my neighbors have detached garages. 00:50:43
And they're all within 3 feet of my property. 00:50:50
My the one of my neighbors has 2 accessories building units right now. 00:50:55
Dwelling units or just accessory buildings? 00:51:01
Accessory and building. 00:51:07
And I am going to tell you right now that it's going to change my whole home. 00:51:10
If they turn those into dwelling units and are allowed to that close to my property line my neighbor to the South of me has, it's 00:51:17
not even a foot away from my house. 00:51:22
Well, that's reason that he has sounds illegal. It's not even a threat. Obey from my home. 00:51:30
So you get that many neighbors that all have these accessory buildings. 00:51:36
And they're putting dwelling in it. Then I always said him and living in the middle of. 00:51:41
An apartment complex. I have neighbors surrounding me. 00:51:48
It changes the whole landscape, it changes. 00:51:53
And so there's got to be something that we can do. Like I said, I respect and appreciate what you said as far as. 00:51:57
Existing buildings, people should be able to convert those, be able to use their property. I respect that. 00:52:05
But we need to do it in a way. 00:52:12
You know, I bought my home for a reason and it was because of that privacy, because of the backyard that I have. 00:52:15
And to have that stripped away like that. 00:52:21
I'm not so willing to let that go and just to clarify this, Commissioner. 00:52:26
The eight properties you have surrounding your backyard, just out of curiosity, are they all quarter or half acre lots as well or 00:52:32
or do you have an idea or those smaller like R1 lots? 00:52:37
OK. 00:52:43
The two right next door to me are larger lots, but the ones in the back, they're smaller lots. 00:52:44
Gotcha. Yeah. And that makes that makes a lot of sense to me. So I think this is a big concern. 00:52:51
How do how might we allow this without all of a sudden be like AH? 00:52:55
Yeah, yeah. 00:53:01
So then and just to kind of clarify on your sticking point. 00:53:02
Like a lot size restriction where if it was just potentially the two to the sides of you and not so much the the row of tiny ones 00:53:07
behind you, obviously, I don't think your eight neighbors at any course of time are all going to want to build rental homes. But 00:53:13
you never know, right? I mean maybe maybe the ones running the tanning booth and salon want some extra income or whatever, but. 00:53:20
Internal flowing units in these properties. 00:53:31
That two of my backyard universities renters downstairs and upstairs. 00:53:35
And so if they're allowed to then turn the garage. 00:53:40
They can only have one, so they have to get rid of. Yeah. You can't do both, yeah. 00:53:46
I mean, then you've got this whole I know I'm surrounded now. That being said, I do want to ask this just because it came up to my 00:53:50
mind. 00:53:54
An internal Adu. 00:53:59
Could they build that as bonus space as an external Adu and then say, well, we're not using our internal dwelling unit as a 00:54:01
dwelling unit, that's just bonus space now and our external is the the the dwelling unit. Can they can they do that technically 00:54:07
they can change their internal units so that it's part of the main dwelling and then just have their one accessory unit be the 00:54:13
external one? 00:54:19
And then the suddenly noncompliant when they start renting out the basement to their nephew or whatever, right? Doesn't this 00:54:27
suggest that really we have much more moderate income housing in the city than we're giving ourselves credit for? 00:54:34
Because we're only recognizing the ones that we've legitimized or are formalized. But I think it's true that we, as in most 00:54:40
cities, you have lots of inform. 00:54:46
Modern income, that doesn't mean any local codes, right? I mean, we, we do have probably a significant number of people who are 00:54:52
renting out basements without an Adu license. So if they don't get an Adu license, we don't know that they're renting out their 00:54:58
basement. There's no way to know that we. 00:55:05
Enforce enforce enforcement and licensing. Then our numbers would go up and our problem solved. Maybe, I know. 00:55:13
You still have the issue of OK as a property. 00:55:23
Maybe I don't want an internal unit. Maybe I want something that's a little bit more private. Maybe I have a larger family that's 00:55:27
taking up space and in my house now I want to build a one bedroom unit for. 00:55:33
A college student or for a single professional, and I totally get that. I would love to be able to do that. You can do that. 00:55:40
I just feel like there needs to be. 00:55:50
A minimum size I feel like by letting people do it. 00:55:56
Yeah. So we do have a maximum accessory building footprint. You could alter that to be even smaller for an external Edu. 00:56:00
And right now it's it scales based off of the property size. 00:56:10
I think it starts at 707. Fifty square feet. Did you remember 750? I thought it was an 800. 00:56:17
That's like a percent of the lot size or something, isn't it? 00:56:24
Generally you're also going to have your structures are going to be regulated by your lot coverage, so. 00:56:28
Structures can only cover a percentage of your property, so even with our conditional use permits. 00:56:36
You still can't go over the the lock coverage or a structure. Let me pull up those two tables for you to look at. 00:56:44
So if you were. 00:57:04
This is best set back distance for main structures, so if you wanted to limit. 00:57:06
Two Storey Adu or external Adu at all to be within the main footprint or area buildable area for a main structure this is what 00:57:13
you'd be looking at. For a smaller size property or 1/4 acre property, R110 zone at 20 feet or a rear property set back. 00:57:23
Of your career. 00:57:34
And then your sides are dependent on the arcing side. So that's that's the step back you would have if you wanted to limit 00:57:38
external dwelling units to be only allowed within the the building footprint of. 00:57:44
The main structure is there. A minimum set back between the main structure and the potential EAUD building code is 5 feet. It's 00:57:52
either 5 feet. So you basically could build a house and then build another house right behind it, just a little bit smaller. 00:58:00
Could you build a house in front of your house? Is there anything that says you can't build this in your friend or guess you have 00:58:08
to. Front yard setbacks are controlled by what is already existing on the street. 00:58:13
So when property owners come in and want to add on to the house, a lot of times it's very hard for them to add on to the front at 00:58:18
all, because they have to average the setbacks for all their neighboring properties on the same side of the street. So they take 00:58:24
two houses on one side, 2 houses on the other side. 00:58:30
Closest and furthest point for each of those properties, and that's their average set back that determines their set back for the 00:58:37
front yard. 00:58:40
So it's there's it's more variable. Most cities will just have a standard 25 foot front yard set back. Ours we do averaging. 00:58:45
Where you can come closer and then you have to go further back. As long as you're meeting that average, that's interesting. 00:58:55
I'm going to lot coverage. 00:59:02
This is the percent coverage of all structures, so on a lot less than 10,000 square feet. 00:59:06
Your structures can only cover 35%. 00:59:14
So if you have a very large house on. 00:59:17
Quarter acre property, you're limited on how much area you can cover A. 00:59:21
Let me give you an example here. Now that doesn't include any of the the cement hardscape associated with the house. That is just. 00:59:28
Structures, roof structure, right? 00:59:38
Yeah. So on 1/4 acre property. 00:59:41
That is not that. 00:59:46
Not that either. 00:59:54
I do this all the time. They get I can't do it. 00:59:58
It's because we're watching here. 01:00:02
Would be 3500 square feet on a 10,000 lot, right? 01:00:05
Thank you. You're welcome so. 01:00:09
So if you have a 2000 square foot Rambler, you're limited to additional 1500 for all of your accessory buildings. 01:00:13
15 hundreds of mansions. 01:00:21
Your rear yard is limited to. 01:00:25
25% so. 01:00:30
Cover more than 25% of your rear yard. 01:00:33
And then accessory buildings, these are your footprints. So on that quarter acre property, 850 square feet. 01:00:37
If they wanted to build a building with a footprint larger than that, they would have to seek a conditional use permit, so then 01:00:46
you would see that application. 01:00:51
So 850 square feet. 01:00:58
Generally is about the size. 01:01:01
Two-bedroom apartment. A small two-bedroom apartment. 01:01:03
My first house was 850. 01:01:08
That included the garage. 01:01:11
Yeah. 01:01:14
So the text. 01:01:15
Accessory dwelling unit so increases to five feet from 4 feet. 01:01:19
So the draft we have in front of us for the text amendment. 01:01:25
And I apologize for not knowing this, but is the language in there that it already requires all these same setbacks. So these 01:01:29
minimums you're showing us is the minimums regardless of the the lot size, Yes, So those are on. 01:01:36
Lines 4445. 01:01:46
46 and 47 and 47 is the one that you could alter if you wanted to limit it to a single level within a certain distance, and they 01:01:50
could only go up to 20 feet for an external dwelling unit if they increase that setbacks even further. 01:01:58
So you could increase another 25 or 30% or? 01:02:08
Twilight structure. 01:02:14
But. 01:02:18
This would if they're going to turn it into an accessory dwelling unit. They have an accessory building already existing on the 01:02:20
property, and they want to turn it into a dwelling unit. They wouldn't need to still comply with these standards, so that's when 01:02:27
the next section #8 comes in. 01:02:33
So the legal non conforming is the concern. 01:02:42
That you have is that people that have these garages right up in the corner of their property, right up next to three or four 01:02:45
neighbors back there that want to put in their tiny home, apartment, whatever on 1/4 acre lot. 01:02:52
They can do it as long as their roof doesn't allow windows that view the neighbors and even if we did a height restriction and 01:03:00
said single layer. 01:03:04
You still have a neighbor. 01:03:09
2 feet from your house. 01:03:12
Well enough that. 01:03:15
The fact that it's a non compliant, non conforming whatever or no legal. 01:03:17
Building that this can't be used to legitimize or legalize what they've done, in other words. 01:03:25
You know, the fact that it's there doesn't mean they can change it de facto into that, but if if we can write that in, that would 01:03:31
be a great improvement, right? And that was the position where City Council directed us to look at converting accessory buildings. 01:03:38
A discussion that could be had OK, here's why the Planning Commission. 01:03:47
Suggested this language because you have these non complying buildings and here's the problem. OK that. 01:03:53
And maybe a point of discussion on that she. 01:04:02
Are there any standards that you feel could offset the impacts from minor conversion converting? Are there any? 01:04:06
Additional standards that. 01:04:14
Or is it just? 01:04:17
Not comfortable at all with any converting of accessory building. I mean where would you put the, where would you put the changes 01:04:20
because they don't have any room on their property. The person impacted is the one that's going to have to put up a higher fence 01:04:25
or be allowed to have an 8 foot fence or. 01:04:30
Have to put landscaping and that burden shouldn't be on the person being impacted. 01:04:36
You could have those be standards that are. 01:04:42
With the applicant. So if you have a non conforming structure I think the standards on there are have all the same standards and 01:04:47
then adding no windows or doors. 01:04:53
So an accessory building may have a door on a property side, or they may have a window on an accessory or on a property side. So 01:05:00
do you want to require filling those? 01:05:05
And relocating those, I think that would be reasonable. The fire department says no, they got to have an exit. I have two exits 01:05:11
from the house, so you have to, you have to put a new exit on or a new or new window. 01:05:18
I mean, I have. 01:05:27
Legal non conforming shed large right up against the fence, like there's less than a foot between my fence of my neighbors and my 01:05:29
shed that was built before I purchased the property. 01:05:34
And if I wanted to convert that and just say, well, there's no doors and windows on your side, sorry, they have a drum set like, 01:05:41
you know, I could see where that'd be a little bit of a concern. I mean, is there a way to? 01:05:45
Say is there an altar to the language? We can say that your non conforming well not even necessarily non conforming structure, but 01:05:51
you could just say hey look existing structures that you want to convert to dwelling unit have to be. 01:05:58
Within certain setbacks and there is no non conforming allowance so that you can't add dwelling space within that structure, but 01:06:07
you could maybe add. 01:06:13
Some area onto that structure that would be compliant with. 01:06:20
External. I think as long as you write it so that city staff has the ability to mitigate all those things, I don't want them all 01:06:25
back here. 01:06:30
Right. Agree that that doesn't we just got rid of the hallmark. 01:06:35
That, that now, I don't want to start with every, every conversion that has to happen and that. So I think you have to, you know, 01:06:42
shut that down as much as you can up front and whatever discretion the city staff can have. 01:06:49
Including saying no, sometimes the answer is there is nothing that was sufficiently mitigate what you want to do. 01:06:57
OK, so even though the zone allows it, there's something else that's a non complying building is stopping it from happening. You 01:07:06
could tear it down, put it in the right spot and make it a dwelling. 01:07:11
Or I guess the other alternatives they have a. 01:07:17
Existing accessory building. 01:07:22
A foot too close, You know, if you're looking at these increases, so you need an additional foot, then you have to frame another 01:07:27
interior wall that's a foot in from that. So you're not adding the dwelling space within those required setbacks. 01:07:35
You're only adding dwelling space where it would be building a new building anyway, but you're still kind of using the existing, I 01:07:43
believe in giving staff some discretion to deal with those kinds of very minimal kinds of things. OK. I don't think it's those 01:07:50
that are going to be a problem. It's the one that's three feet off the line and that and now it's a house with people moving in 01:07:57
and out doing house activities, which is very different than it being used as a garage. 01:08:04
SO11 recent example that we had a permit for was a They built a interior enclosed pool which is within their set accessory 01:08:12
building set back and then right next to that they built a pool house. Their original plan had a bedroom and kitchen and bathroom 01:08:20
in that pool house. 01:08:28
Their stuff. They were. 01:08:37
Close enough on their set back that it met the standard for an accessory building, but did not meet the standard for an accessory 01:08:38
dwelling unit. So for that then we have to highlight and record something against the property that it can't be used as an 01:08:44
accessory dwelling unit. 01:08:49
So you have an accessory building that has space. Is it going to be used for living space? Are they if you have a bedroom that's 01:08:56
built there? 01:09:00
Is somebody going to be living there eventually? 01:09:05
Maybe then it becomes a code enforcement issue, which? 01:09:09
It's manageable. 01:09:14
But already people can build accessory buildings. They can build bonus spaces. They can build something. They can use those 01:09:16
spaces. They can have people that are occupying those spaces for recreational purposes. They could build a game room that is in 01:09:22
their existing garage. That's. 01:09:27
May have significant impacts as well. They could convert their garage to a music space where they are used because they don't want 01:09:34
to have their drum set in their house, so they're going to build their detached garage or convert to use their detached garage for 01:09:40
their drum and band practice. Pretty common. 01:09:46
So people are already using. 01:09:53
Some of these structures for an accessory, kind of. 01:09:56
Umm, I think what the standards you're just trying to offset if somebody were to be living there consistently, right. Well that's 01:10:01
the changing of the characteristic of the neighborhood that's impactful that goes to kind of I think that the highlighted point 01:10:07
almost unanimously across the group which is you know we're we're not opposed to the Adu, the EADU or trying to to check the box 01:10:14
to to make sure that we qualify for transit money. 01:10:20
Now that that's the only reason, but it's definitely the large incentive. 01:10:28
But it's that we want to make sure that whatever we put in here doesn't open up that door to where all of a sudden, now, you know, 01:10:33
neighbors have sudden houses popping up in between houses that are freaking them out and they're going, when did this happen? 01:10:40
Right. 01:10:48
Anybody disagree with that? 01:10:50
OK. 01:10:53
It's not just us. It will be our kids. And maybe they're cool with it. They're cool with a lot of things, but. 01:10:58
Back in 2021 when the Council. 01:11:05
The only significant change they made in the recommendation was to not allow it in all zones because it was recommended to be in 01:11:10
all zones initially, right. So it is, it is allowed in all zones. So that's where you see we have a set back for externally used. 01:11:18
But the amount of properties that are half an acre or larger in an R110 zone are? 01:11:26
You and far between and if you have a property that's a half acre in an R110 zone. 01:11:34
Was it more likely to subdivide it and just create 2 units anyway? Was it the survey that got them to change it? Because the 01:11:40
surveys pretty clear that nobody wanted it in all zones. No, it was. 01:11:46
I think you. 01:11:54
The survey was not. 01:11:56
Let me spell down to that, the other thing I wanted to clarify on what was in the packet and I was just curious on this, is it 01:12:00
kind of show the the progression of like you know, oh, I had my family, now I'm retired and I have my little cane, you know, 01:12:08
infographic and I moved into the EA, UV and now some other family I'm renting to. So I'm just curious, can the owner occupant live 01:12:16
in their accessory unit and then rent out the main structure and that allows people to stay on their property and maybe have. 01:12:24
A caretaker with their family. 01:12:32
House while they live in the accessory unit. 01:12:34
They could build an accessory unit that needs accessibility challenges if their main home doesn't. 01:12:37
Allow them. If they have mobility challenges, maybe they want something that's. 01:12:44
Single level they can build that in the. 01:12:48
And then rent a so that it retains that privacy. I think that's a major hurdle. If you think about your own use as well, do you do 01:12:51
I want to convert 2 units or two bedrooms in my basement? There's. 01:12:58
There's a privacy trade off that you have there that some people would rather move it a little bit further away and have some more 01:13:06
privacy for a much smaller unit. You know you don't want and maybe you don't want to have a family of six living in your accessory 01:13:11
dwelling unit either. It's likely that you oh, I only want one person or a couple living here, so I'm just going to make it a one 01:13:17
bedroom. 01:13:22
Because with the property. 01:13:29
Kind of initial initiating that. 01:13:32
Building of an external unit. 01:13:36
They're taking their own youth into consideration. 01:13:38
Let me let's look at the poll really quick. 01:13:43
So which donor should ADUS be permitted? 01:13:53
Single family zones with 10,000 square foot lot size or larger. 01:13:57
Much smaller percentage of. 01:14:03
Half acre or larger preference. 01:14:07
So at least 10,000. 01:14:10
So you could say. 01:14:12
Maybe not included in the R18 film that has an 8000 square foot lot minimum size. 01:14:14
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm headed, I mean. 01:14:21
Do we have to bite off the whole thing or do we? 01:14:24
Go to the next size down and say let's see what happens. Because the problems become the smaller the lot size, the bigger the 01:14:28
problems and I think the impact of density. 01:14:33
You know, on those kind of folks, they're going to be complaining and stuff like that. 01:14:40
And if you look at I. 01:14:45
Obviously holidays, not new development, but typical new developments. And what a lot of people are looking at is smaller lot 01:14:49
sizes anyway. 01:14:53
New houses are typically 15th of an acre, 10th of an acre to maybe tops quarter of an acre. For new development. I think 1/4 of an 01:14:59
acre is considered larger than so. 01:15:06
Reasonably adding a second smaller unit onto 1/4 of an acre. 01:15:15
Would be reasonable. 01:15:21
But as you get into those larger lots in those smaller zones that falls back on the it's easier to subdivide anyway, right? 01:15:24
Because what's the minimum you have to have to subdivide in holidays and like 11,000 or something like that? 01:15:30
I think so. 01:15:38
And you have to have both your property. Both lots have to meet the minimum lot size in the zone, yeah. 01:15:39
So whatever the zoning is for like R110, it would be like 11 or 12,000, something like that. 01:15:46
R18 zone, so there was enough land area there for 4 units. 01:15:56
So those 4 units could put Eadus on them. 01:16:04
In an R18 zone, if you wanted to allow for that, yes, but it's a PUD. So we approved building areas. We didn't approve external 01:16:10
building area pads, but if it weren't if. 01:16:16
They're also limited on their structure size. So I think that developer was already looking at kind of maximizing that structure 01:16:24
coverage for the full property. They're one of the extra. 01:16:29
Structure coverage. Typically, I don't think people want to move into Puds want it so they can have external living units. 01:16:35
They're. 01:16:38
Zoning amount by owning all of the property but the quarter acre. 01:16:43
The homes and gingers. 01:16:49
On quarter acre log. 01:16:51
Could. 01:16:53
EAD is on them. 01:16:55
And Ginger could build a guest house on property. You're going to write great language that will stop that if it's. 01:16:58
And all the neighbors that have half an acre larger we do conditional. 01:17:04
And I think on half maker it's 1200 square foot footprint right across the fence on the other side to show that. 01:17:11
Can I suggest that we do two things? One is that we open and close a public hearing. 01:17:20
So that's off the agenda. Absolutely. And 2nd, we continue this to a future meeting. 01:17:26
For more language. 01:17:33
If you. 01:17:36
Hopefully there's lots of things to. 01:17:37
Yeah. And I would, I would ask are there anything, anything specific that you'd like worked in? 01:17:40
Can we get a copy of this in an editable version that we can add our comments so that you're not having to try and? 01:17:47
Write all this down. Yes, because I think there's been a lot of great suggestions here, but. 01:17:54
To consolidate that into a code, maybe a little. 01:18:00
I've been taking some notes. 01:18:04
Go into weirdness with a public meeting. Can we just continue the public meeting? 01:18:07
Changes externally or adding comments onto. 01:18:13
A document that I would send digitally, so as long as we. 01:18:18
Those come back. So we're continuing this as I understand. So as long as we're going over them in a meeting again, then that's not 01:18:22
an issue, but you don't want to be sending them to each other. 01:18:27
The other thing that I've been working on as well is looking at how many parcels we have that are half an acre or larger, so that 01:18:36
you're seeing, OK, but likely people who have 1/2 acre or larger are going to be building a larger guest house. 01:18:44
Because they can't subdivide, but they may want to build a second house, their properties bigger enough they'll do. I guess we can 01:18:52
do everything. 01:18:56
And the only the only other comment. 01:19:01
That I don't think we address as a group was whether or not to require one off. 01:19:04
Street parking, and I think we ought to weigh in on that because I think that's the biggest issue. When the public says they don't 01:19:10
like it and everything else, what they really mean is. 01:19:14
Parking and do we want to make it 1 parking space of 1 1/2? I think we ought to give you some feedback on that. And then. 01:19:20
So right now the code is that one would be required for an Adu and that's internal or external. So right now if somebody had a 01:19:30
three bedroom basement unit that they converted into a accessory dwelling unit. 01:19:37
They're only required to have one parking. 01:19:44
If you wanted to change that to tie into our off street parking requirements, that's controlled by the number of bedrooms, so one 01:19:47
bedroom. 01:19:51
One parking space, 2 bedrooms, 1 1/2 parking spaces and three bedrooms is 2 parking spaces. 01:19:56
Doing it on bedroom count. 01:20:04
How do you I have that round up? 01:20:09
You can own a motorcycle. 01:20:15
2 Smart cars. 01:20:18
So I mean when you have a house that has a garage, a house. 01:20:21
There are two parking spaces or the garage and then you have parking in the driveway, so that's two parking spaces. So that's 01:20:26
meeting the requirement. They don't have to add parking, they just have to show that they have. 01:20:32
But if they convert the garage and lose the tube inside, they have to replace. 01:20:39
Great. And our code doesn't allow for the conversion of a garage. You have to retain a garage, and that's the same thing if you 01:20:43
have a carport. You can't eliminate your carport and enclose your carport living space. You have to, since I asked for parking 01:20:49
space. 01:20:54
So the the notes that I have just you know hopefully she's been jotting all these down too as we're looking for potentially doing 01:21:01
the lot size restrictions. 01:21:06
Is that right? We want to see something in there that restricts lot size whether we do that by zone? 01:21:11
Or we just do it by lot, Size itself. But we we definitely don't want to see a bunch of EAUD. 01:21:17
I can't even say it. Anyway, we don't the extra homes being built on Tiny. 01:21:23
We're also looking at the height restriction that you brought up on line 47 of keeping that down to single level. 01:21:28
Unless anybody had an opposition to that parking requirements to match off St. and then something is clarification is that height 01:21:36
restriction? Is that for any accessory Adu or for conversion ad? 01:21:43
I think it was within the, yeah, the existing units that. 01:21:52
Are within 3. 01:21:56
I'd like to figure out what's a good standard by the setbacks so that we can kind of get comfortable because. 01:21:58
Paul, you're absolutely right. These are garages and they're meant for cars and not people. 01:22:04
And I think that's the reason why. 01:22:10
Everybody allows them to go so much closer to the property lines. The conversion to me is kind of counterintuitive to. 01:22:13
Making sense with this and so I don't want to create a code that then exacerbates the impact, you know. So going with what you 01:22:20
guys were suggesting, it's a height restriction based on if it's within a certain with I guess within the set back or the typical 01:22:27
building set back. 01:22:34
For accessories and I don't want to make it so confusing, the staff can't understand how to do it either so and then non 01:22:41
conforming. 01:22:44
I don't whether whether we want to just say no, you got to tear it down and build it within parameters or no. You just can't build 01:22:50
that as an accessory dwelling unit because you're too close to the property line and tough. It's tear down or show that your 01:22:55
living space is only within. 01:23:01
Well, I think that's dangerous too. As soon as the building's built and you're you've gone with final inspection, that part of the 01:23:08
wall gets taken and they start using the whole thing, so. 01:23:13
That's the same sort of issue that I think we can address with recording of. 01:23:20
You know this is only the permitted area. You can't have living space that extends into here. We've had like one basement that is 01:23:26
had to be dugout like 8 feet, but. 01:23:31
We had to designate on their plan and worry court against the property that that area can't ever be converted to living space. 01:23:38
Because it's all foundation like an 8 foot foundation and walls that are in there structurally. 01:23:46
So the future or the current homeowner is like, Oh yeah, no, this is not living space. We're not ever going to. 01:23:52
Storage space because it was a fire code issue with the square footage. 01:23:59
But having that specifically called out as this cannot be living space, Nobody can. It's on the title or recorded on the property. 01:24:04
Those were the suggestions that I had written down. Any others that we want to add in there before we? 01:24:14
Move forward, OK. And then as far as the public meeting, do we open and close and then we'll just have another public meeting 01:24:20
after the revised for the next draft or do we just leave the public meeting open? 01:24:26
The Planning Commission? Really. So you can open it and allow public comment and close it. 01:24:33
Since no one's here or you could open it and leave it open, have these suggestions come back in another draft the next time or. 01:24:39
However long that takes. 01:24:48
Or you can, You know, it's that's up to your prerogative. I mean, how much public input do you want? It was properly noticed so 01:24:50
public could have weighed in today. A couple members did with their emails and written comments. So if we leave public comment 01:24:56
open, doesn't that immediately put it on the the next agenda though? 01:25:01
Yeah, it will be on the next one. We don't you'll have it done either. OK, well, I just want to make sure staff has adequate time, 01:25:09
unless you want to have more time. 01:25:13
Look at it. The other thing that I can look at is how many properties do have accessory buildings on them. 01:25:17
And maybe a rough idea of what? 01:25:26
Some of those are going to be really close, some of them are going to be on properties that are. 01:25:30
Identified. Which ones are, you know, legal, non conforming and which ones are, you know, permitted? 01:25:36
It would be just a very rough like snapshot like here's. Here's what you'd be looking at. 01:25:42
Conversion. 01:25:48
How many properties could? 01:25:50
Possibly convert would probably be helpful to Anne as well just so we it's on the radar of what our Max potential is, right? 01:25:54
Going to be a lot of scrolling, so and what are the chances that we're ever going to be in compliance? 01:26:01
We're in compliance because there's no number. 01:26:08
Ordinance that you have to have in the process. The real challenge and the real fight is. 01:26:14
You know, the east side developed first. 01:26:19
Right, closer to the nicer mountains, in my opinion. 01:26:23
So developed, you know, closer to the greater, more abundant water sources, that's pretty standard how development works in the 01:26:28
West. You find the water, you develop there first. Well, So what we have is a whole bunch of land that was held by a major 01:26:34
corporation that has been released by that major corporation over the last 20 years and sold as housing. And so you have all of 01:26:41
this modern income housing demand. 01:26:47
And the pressure is on three cities. 01:26:54
That are include that land and so you have that development that's occurring. 01:26:58
And you have a percentage, I mean holiday what is probably 95% single family homes, 5% apartment type things? 01:27:04
And you have the ratios there of more like 6040 and you know on the West side of the foot of the the Ochers and so there's all 01:27:12
this pressure that this moderate income housing is going to be. 01:27:19
Disproportionately. 01:27:27
Borne by. 01:27:28
Cities and the consequences 30 years and 40 years down the road from now are going to be. 01:27:30
Largely different than what they hear and that's just a fact, right? That's so, but that's where kind of this tension is coming in 01:27:37
the legislature. And so that's why these strategies, there's 26 if I remember. 01:27:42
Choose five. 01:27:48
And largely built out cities are very limited in the options that they can choose. 01:27:51
They just don't work because there's not undeveloped land. Could you tell us what the other ones are off the top of your hood? 01:27:58
Some of the other the other strategies that holidays opted for. 01:28:06
I can pull up the modern guessing plan. 01:28:10
We have the strategy E which is creating attached to the atheist strategy F. 01:28:14
That was his owner. We don't for hire dancing. 01:28:20
In their transit areas. 01:28:24
Strategy H. 01:28:27
Amend land use regulations to eliminate and reduce parking requirements, which we did. 01:28:29
A strategy L. 01:28:36
Which was reduced weight and eliminate impact fees related to moderate income housing. Reduced fees impact fee impact fees. 01:28:38
And then strategy. 01:28:48
Which was applied for partner with an entity who applies for funding state funding. 01:28:50
So that is largely. 01:28:56
We have one film that we change partnering with the Room, the holiday converts some of their is that the one up near the gravel 01:29:02
pit. 01:29:06
So converting professional offices to I think they got what was that 80 units that we got out of that or something like that, 100 01:29:10
units, OK. 01:29:14
Well, and one of the things, one of the components of Holiday Hills is that tax increment incentive. So a certain portion of that 01:29:19
money that comes the increment financing has to go back into moderate income housing. If a portion of it is already earmarked by 01:29:26
state law, the difference that you're getting off of that, you can invest some of that back into the property to incentivize the 01:29:32
redevelopment, but a portion of it has to go into moderate income housing in the city. 01:29:39
And the last strategy is Strategy P, which demonstrate utilization of the moderate income housing set aside. 01:29:46
Funding. 01:29:54
So we're like most of the way there on most of these, right? Like. 01:29:57
We got a good head start and feels good about it. 01:30:01
Some tweaking ready so that that's actually doing something awesome. All right, Well, my personal opinion is that we probably, if 01:30:04
we're going to go back and revise the text before we make a recommendation to City Council that we probably had to allow the 01:30:10
public at least to comment on any revisions that are made. 01:30:16
That's just my opinion, So I would think that we probably should go ahead and open the public meeting and then if someone wants to 01:30:22
make a motion to continue. 01:30:27
I'll be happy to make a motion to continue the public hearing. All right, public hearing and this agenda item tonight. 01:30:33
And do we have a second? 01:30:41
All right. Got a second. Can we just do it all in favor on it? All in favor, say aye. Any opposed? All right, fantastic. So with 01:30:43
that, we have continued that and I'll go ahead and make a motion for the Commission to adjourn. All in favor? Aye. All right, 01:30:49
we'll see you next time. 01:30:55
Thank you everyone. Thank you. 01:31:02
Link
Start video at
Social
Embed
* you need to log in to manage your favorites
My Favorites List
You haven't added any favorites yet. Click the "Add Favorite" button on any media page, and they'll show up here.
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Unable to preview the file.
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Unable to preview the file.
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Unable to preview the file.
Give me just a minute. 00:00:01
Fantastic. So with that, this is the Holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 5:34 PM on. 00:00:03
That's not right. 00:00:14
January 23rd 2024 and. 00:00:17
In attendance we have Commissioner Baron, Commissioner Gong, Chair Rd. Commissioner for. 00:00:21
Mr. Cunningham. 00:00:28
City staff and council, and with that we have one item on the agenda. 00:00:31
Tonight and it is the text amendment around accessory dwelling units and carries going to present on that and then are we going to 00:00:37
have our guests present during the work meeting or during the public hearing. 00:00:44
I will have Anne Garcia present during the public meeting. 00:00:52
Perfect. Perfect. With that, then I will turn it over to you and let's talk about Adus and all the fun they have. 00:00:59
So I guess do we want to start with any questions that any of you had on the proposed changes? 00:01:06
I know we had a discussion on this in October, November. 00:01:13
The biggest change on it is. 00:01:18
Well, I guess a few key changes defining the owner occupancy that is consistent with the home occupations so that it matches up as 00:01:22
having a formal definition within both of those as to what an owner occupied is. 00:01:29
Yes, owner occupied. 00:01:40
Blood marriage. 00:01:43
Means that the owner can never has to live. 00:01:45
As long as one of those people does so, that could be a Ranger. 00:01:51
My cousin. 00:01:57
Thank you cousin his friends. 00:01:59
Live in. 00:02:04
As long as. 00:02:07
Is OK. 00:02:09
Then we will pretend that the owner doesn't. 00:02:11
And that's owner occupancy can be a little bit tricky. We run into that issue with enforcement as well. How do you verify if you 00:02:15
have? 00:02:19
And we do have the property ownership affidavit, so it would be stated, here's the property owner whoever's listed on the title 00:02:24
deed, and then the agent would be a family member. 00:02:30
And you run into things with. 00:02:40
You have a lot of properties and Holiday are owned by LLC's or they'll put the property in an LLC specific for the property. 00:02:43
Sometimes it's a family trust. 00:02:48
So where there's so many family trusts, LLCS, various things that kind of. 00:02:55
I think just some consistency there as to what a family member. 00:03:00
Is defined as. 00:03:05
And the other major part on that is adding. 00:03:11
The standards for if you were to convert an existing accessory building. 00:03:16
A lot of those are going to be closer in setbacks. 00:03:22
Some of them may have a doorway or windows on a property line side, so how do you address those? So having some standards in the 00:03:27
code to address converting existing, that was the main direction from the City Council was we want to look at how we can convert 00:03:34
existing accessory buildings, so that's what adding that section is. 00:03:41
We did also remove the lot minimum size. 00:03:51
Of half an acre or twice the minimum lot size. As you've seen with some of our conditional use permits for building footprint 00:03:55
size, they're typically on properties that are half an acre or larger and they're wanting to put a bigger house. So properties 00:04:04
they can't subdivide but want to have a larger structure on there or a larger accessory building with a accessory unit. 00:04:12
And that was consistent. The reasoning behind removing nuts is because we have the guest house allowance on half an acre or larger 00:04:23
properties and consistent with the polling data that we had from when we initially did the accessory dwelling unit text in 2021. 00:04:32
The history with adding that half an acre and twice the minimum lot size, that was an addition that was added in after it was 00:04:44
recommended by Planning Commission by the City Council. 00:04:49
So Planning Commission initially didn't have that qualification in when we when you made the recommendation or when they made the 00:04:56
recommendations to the council and then that was added in by City Council after the public hearing there. 00:05:02
So can I ask the tough question? Are they asking for recommendation on should they make this change? 00:05:11
Or are they asking for recommendation on? Are these the changes that would carry out the direction that they want to go? 00:05:18
That's. 00:05:27
Well, just to the the preface if and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but this is a state mandated legislative change that we're 00:05:30
falling in compliance with by making these changes or no. So the moderate income housing goals is the state is looking for actual 00:05:39
application of the strategies. So we have strategies to meet our moderate income housing goals. 00:05:48
And then they want in the reporting for moderate income housing, how are we actually meeting those? How are we taking action on 00:05:58
those strategies? So the strategy that's outlined in the staff report is to reduce regulations related to accessory dwelling 00:06:05
units, but there's no current statute or no requirement from the legislature currently to have have it applied to all zones in the 00:06:11
city. 00:06:18
No, OK. 00:06:26
So and to clarify on that, if we just were to water the text amendment down to one thing, would that be considered meeting the 00:06:29
qualification of modification or is there a certain number of them that have to be adjusted? Yeah. 00:06:35
Any any sort of modification. So if we just change one thing that made it a little bit looser on the very minor minor detail check 00:06:43
that box right. And then down the line as we're reporting on that is that effective, has that actually produced any housing units 00:06:50
And so that's kind of the point where we're looking at that half acre size. Yes, we've had some applications for accessory 00:06:57
dwelling units on half acre lots, but we're not getting the. 00:07:04
For and, there's some internal accessory building units or attached to the main house. 00:07:12
So we do get permits on those. Those are in the staff report. 00:07:17
But we do deny applications for if they're not 1/2 acre and they want to do an external accessory going in it. 00:07:22
And it isn't really driving. This is the one. 00:07:29
Accessory unit will be setting. 00:07:34
That that was. 00:07:39
What brought it to the council's attention is they said OK, well, rezoning is a strategy in our general plan to meet moderate 00:07:42
income housing goals. If we're not going to necessarily rezone, maybe we need to look at our Adu ordinance and so specifically 00:07:49
looking at converting existing accessory growing units. 00:07:55
As a way to meet smaller income housing goals. 00:08:02
And is Does that boil down? 00:08:05
Allowing ad. 00:08:09
On smaller properties. 00:08:12
And one is currently allowed. 00:08:14
So those two properties we I think that case that college referring to, there were three different owners that came in all. 00:08:18
And there were two of the properties that they wanted to rezone because they weren't large enough properties to put. 00:08:28
And accessory dwelling again. So with this text amendment they would be able to go ahead. 00:08:37
And build. 00:08:44
Right. So if you're looking at those three properties, one is .16 acres has an existing accessory detached building that has a 00:08:48
studio or basement unit basement, it's bonus space. So they can't use it as a dwelling unit. So it's just bonus space. So that 00:08:56
amending the text to allow for the conversion of existing. 00:09:04
Accessory buildings to dwelling units would allow that property owner to converge their accessory volume unit or their accessory 00:09:14
building to an accessory dwelling unit. The other two properties, one is .40 acres, I think the other one is .30 acres. Neither of 00:09:21
those properties could build an accessory loan unit with this text amendment. With the text amendment if you remove the half acre 00:09:29
lot size minimum that they could. 00:09:36
But as is, they cannot. 00:09:44
Kerry, correct me if I'm wrong. So this was about a year ago, the Planning Commission reviewed our moderating maybe just two years 00:09:48
ago now moderate income housing plan and legislature mandated and we had to have, we had to pick if I remember it, there had to be 00:09:55
like 7. They offered what was it 30 different strategies and we had to choose at least seven as part of your moderate income 00:10:03
housing plan. I may be off on those two numbers, but there was a number that you had to choose and the city had could. 00:10:10
City Council could choose whichever one they wanted, but because it's the land use. 00:10:18
An element to the general plan, the Planning Commission had to do that. So we adopted that and one of the things that the moderate 00:10:22
income housing element that Ledma requires. 00:10:27
That's the Land Use Development Management Act. It's 10984 O3 in the general Plan, preparation of which the Moderate Income 00:10:34
Housing Plan is a part of that, but it says. 00:10:39
Each General Plan or Moderate Income Housing Plan has to have a component that. 00:10:45
A provides A realistic opportunity to meet the need for additional moderate income housing within the municipality during the next 00:10:51
five years, and there's also reporting requirement annually on that for a city the size of holiday and I can't remember the floor 00:10:57
on that, but holiday meets that requirement so they have to report back to DWS. 00:11:03
There once the initial requirement was to. 00:11:10
Have a moderate income housing. 00:11:14
The second, the next year, is to report back on progress made in. 00:11:16
Either adopting more. 00:11:22
Liberal policies that allow for more modern housing to be developed within your municipality. So that's what this is also part of. 00:11:25
It's not just. 00:11:29
That that came up with that. 00:11:35
That those particular things came to the attention of the City Council. It's also the legislature is requiring cities to do this. 00:11:38
So these are taking from the strategies that we adopted and implementing them. So and it can introduce Ann Garcia Housing Director 00:11:45
and she you can she can answer any questions for you as well on what those moderate income housing bills are what direction from 00:11:52
City Council from the city manager has been. 00:12:00
And do you want to? 00:12:08
Introduce yourself and maybe give a little bit of background as we're all talking about it. 00:12:09
Economic Development and Housing Manager. 00:12:16
We have 26 strategies that we needed to choose from. The city decided to choose six out of those. 00:12:20
Strategies to focus on and the strategies you have to have actions associated with each strategy in addition to task. 00:12:29
That you need to comply with and report on. So every year you have to report on. Last year was first year reporting on that. 00:12:37
We did approve the revision to the Moderate Income Housing Plan in February of 23. 00:12:45
And the reporting. 00:12:53
Was due August 1st. 00:12:56
And it was very challenging. 00:12:59
Because we could only report on. 00:13:02
Actions that were completed. 00:13:06
From the date that your plan was approved. 00:13:09
Which was February, so we. 00:13:14
Six months to report on action, so we didn't have that much to to report on and one of them was Strategy E, which is to create an 00:13:17
associated with ADUS so. 00:13:23
I don't know if that if you have any other questions. No, we did memory serves going back to this. 00:13:30
We did make some kind of modification to. 00:13:37
Attached dwelling units did we not, did we not approve some kind of something that changed and loosened the? 00:13:40
Requirements around Adus or am I dreaming right up in my head? Yes, we did. But that was that was outside of this. That was 00:13:48
required anyway. Basically the legislature just said. 00:13:52
I don't care what your ordinances say internally to use are allowed. OK, so that one was that one was the state saying do this. 00:13:58
And our initial 80 ordinance was created, so adding the text in 2021. So we looked at you know internal Adus, but then also by 00:14:08
external ADUS. The state does allow more regulation around external Adus because they do realize that's a unit that's outside of a 00:14:16
main structure. So cities should have some say over set back or. 00:14:24
Windows, doors, other things. Those can be more regulated. Lot size, another thing. 00:14:33
So. 00:14:40
That's where those regulations for the external AD use originated from. 00:14:41
We were given 26 options. 00:14:47
And we adopted 66, yes. So if you, if you were to go back and look at those. 00:14:49
With a city like holiday in which I would describe as mature and near build out. 00:14:56
You couldn't have adopted any of the other 20. 00:15:02
I mean, I have to go back and look at all of them and review them. But my recollection is if you are a city that had no vacant 00:15:06
land, your ability to adopt those was very, very limited. 00:15:11
And you were basically here's your option internally externally to use accessory buildings, smaller lot sizes on redevelopment. I 00:15:17
mean those are your strategies that you. 00:15:21
You were pretty much funneled into. These are your options. 00:15:27
Pick any color you want, as long as it's black and what are the penalties. 00:15:30
If we don't, the penalties. 00:15:34
There I think they get my recollection is I should have looked at them for this, but they there's access to the Olean Walker 00:15:39
Moderate Income Housing Fund or Low Income Housing Fund that gets and there's also some transportation dollars that get come off 00:15:45
the table and they get increasingly more punitive. 00:15:52
The further out you go from compliance, from the reporting requirements and all those things memory serves, it was like you had to 00:15:59
have four or five to just not get in trouble. And then if you've got six, it was like there's the bonus money, right, right 00:16:03
strategies if you report on them. 00:16:08
On five strategies, then you are allowed to apply for the. 00:16:14
Transportation dollars, if you don't have anything and you don't have a plan or a report that is in compliance, there's some fees 00:16:19
associated with that. Yeah, there was some actual dollars that had to be paid out if you weren't in compliance with the 00:16:25
requirement by. 00:16:31
I can't. What was it? It was it may, I think or something like that. Well, after reporting you're given like 90 days to get in 00:16:38
compliance if you're not. So yeah, so there was, yeah, but it was a per day fine if you were out of compliance. And again it there 00:16:44
were four requirements. You had to be a city of a certain size population wise before they triggered those penalties. So tiny town 00:16:50
Utah didn't get. 00:16:56
Eaten away when they have a $12,000 budget and they just had to pay $10,000. 00:17:03
In fees and fines to the Department of Workforce Services. 00:17:09
I have a question. 00:17:13
Self report there's a table that talks about. 00:17:16
Application are those active applications right now that the staff is looking at for internal use, external use? 00:17:21
So do you have any sense? 00:17:29
Yeah, this doesn't seem like very high numbers. So, so. 00:17:32
My question is do we have any sense of if this ordinance changes, how much demand there is, is there going to be something 300 00:17:38
people who want to build Navy, you think it will be instead of eight, there will be 15 like do we, do we have any sense of of how 00:17:44
many people might be interested in this when it changes? 00:17:49
Conversations I've had with people that kind of intensity we have open counter time. People come in and say, you know, I want to 00:17:55
build. 00:17:58
Detached garage and I want to put a dwelling unit above it, one bedroom or studio. I want to have something above my garage 00:18:03
because I'm already building a detached garage. 00:18:08
Typically those are on lots that are smaller than half an acre and we repeated or regularly have to tell people that you can't do 00:18:14
a dwelling unit, you can build it. 00:18:19
It can be bonus space, but it can't actually count as a dwelling unit. 00:18:25
So, so you think it'll it'll go up, it would probably be similar to what we're seeing with internal Adus. It's not going to be 00:18:33
huge when you think of you as a property owner it it takes somebody who actually wants to have that use on their property, right? 00:18:41
If that's something that you want to have on your property and you have the capital to build it. 00:18:52
And then we'd see a permit for it. 00:18:58
Do we have any other questions for? 00:19:01
And she's standing at the front end, just eagerly awaiting. 00:19:03
Is there a separate, I like that, I love that chart. It was great to see it. But that's kind of a proxy for modern income housing, 00:19:07
not necessarily you could have. 00:19:12
A rent on a for $3000 on one and therefore it didn't create any moderate income housing. 00:19:18
You have other things happening with apartments being built and with Holiday Hills. Is that also not contributing to our 00:19:26
commitment to have moderate income housing? 00:19:31
Those units are are contributing because we're looking at total unit count, is that right, Anne? 00:19:38
When we're looking at moderate income housing goals, the units that are going to be coming online with Holiday Hills 100. 00:19:45
Yeah, Yeah. We're looking at 100 units. 00:19:54
What is our metric that says we're we're down tinkering with the zoning because we are meeting the dollar? 00:20:01
Umm, typically it's an ongoing process. You're always going to have applications for rezoning. 00:20:10
That's going to be a continual, especially as a community that's built out, what areas are going to transition into higher uses? 00:20:17
And that's pretty standard across all cities and there's a progress report annually. So you you can't. 00:20:26
Just stop progress. You have to be able to show that you. 00:20:35
Moving forward and providing some form of affordability for our residents in whatever capacity, is there a definition for 00:20:40
moderate? Because it feels like moderate income and holiday would actually be a different definition than moderate income in Rose 00:20:47
Park. So is it relative to the average housing price? How's that measured? Yes, it is. There is. 00:20:54
See here. Good question because it's based off of. 00:21:02
The media enter the area, so it's some percentage of median income that it would say people would allocate to housing. So you look 00:21:07
at that, the area median income of Salt Lake County and that's what we use. So that median income is $106,000. 00:21:15
And then so then you're looking at 80% and below which is considered moderate 850 to 80% of your salary. Of that 108,000 that's 00:21:24
going to be your bracket, 80% would still be considered moderate income housing. So it's not necessarily that we're looking to 00:21:32
solve affordable housing goods that meeting the the moderate housing goal. You know there's that's considered a full but something 00:21:41
that. 00:21:49
Matches with the. 00:21:57
Typical salary that you'd see in an area, got it. So that's. So I mean that's $50,000 a year. 00:22:00
50 to $60,000 a year, 1200 bucks a month is what we're talking about for and you're looking at. 00:22:08
The rent range 1074 to 1716. 00:22:16
Yeah. And that's another new construction, Yeah. And that's going to be filling in that area. When you think of like, OK, what if 00:22:21
I were looking for a rental and holiday that's between 1000 to 1500 a month. It's going to be like a one bedroom apartment or a 00:22:27
basement apartment. 00:22:34
Or possibly an Adu. It's not necessarily going to be a guest house that somebody's building on half an acre property. It's. 00:22:41
More typically going to be something that somebody's either built a kind of attached unit that's more separated to their main 00:22:49
house or. 00:22:54
Converted a. 00:23:00
Detached garage that they don't need something like that, you know it's how are you? 00:23:02
Yeah, it's typical. Rents are usually you're based in apartments and smaller units. 00:23:09
Question I have, if I may on this. 00:23:14
If this, the text amendment gets approved to understand the intent is to allow pretty much everyone anywhere in the city to create 00:23:17
these EADUS with defined parameters around them. But does that also open the door for new development to come in and say, oh look, 00:23:24
I can put in an entire row of houses on these tiny lots and there's just enough room that I can put a bunch of rental garages 00:23:31
behind each one of them. And now all of a sudden we have 80 houses where? 00:23:39
40 we're. 00:23:46
I mean when if you have a. 00:23:49
Company that buys 1020 lots at holidays, land prices and builds tiny houses on all of them. 00:23:53
Is that actually going to happen? I mean, is it likely, right? I get that, but I'm just going to understand how this could impact 00:24:04
future development. Or I mean, it could also be that somebody who buys a house and it's maybe their first house that they buy, 00:24:11
they can stay there longer because now they can build. 00:24:17
Accessory unit or it makes it affordable for somebody to buy a house because they can have a basement that they can rent out. 00:24:23
That's a pretty standard thing when you're just starting out. It's oh, I I don't have any kids yet. I'm going to buy a house and 00:24:31
then I can rent out the basement. So being able to have some sort of the dwelling unit that you can add to your property, either 00:24:39
converting something internally or as your family grows that you can now build an external unit and maintain that. 00:24:47
Kind of rental. 00:24:55
Yeah, I have a question and a comment. Question is. 00:24:58
Do we really have a choice? 00:25:03
You you do have a choice and it's but it's the pressure I think increases as we as we go along because if you you can. 00:25:08
Even if you make changes, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's you're going to have applications. In this case, I can tell you 00:25:18
that if you made the change tonight to remove that half acre lot size minimum, you'd have two applications right away. 00:25:26
Those two are .47 and .48 acres. 00:25:35
They can't do any of you. One of those I know is on a corner lot, so their access for the Adu is on one St. their houses on the 00:25:38
other street. 00:25:41
And so the decisions that we make now are not so concerning to me. You know, that's two more. 00:25:46
But what does concern me is, as Dennis said, it's what does this look like into the future and I think. 00:25:55
One of the things that we need to safeguard is what we all love about holiday. 00:26:03
And I don't think that what you're. 00:26:10
Suggesting here is so outlandish. 00:26:13
I think that it is entirely possible that somebody could buy up some land and build some small homes and say, oh, I've got a 00:26:16
little bit of space in the back. I'm going to build 10 little Adus in the back as well because I'm not going to violate any 00:26:22
ordinances if I do that and. 00:26:28
I've seen this happen in communities in California where every square inch of dirt gets built on and there's no place to park and 00:26:35
everybody's parking on the street and and it just happens over time. 00:26:42
And what we love about our. 00:26:50
He wrote, and it erodes. 00:26:54
And so while we sit here tonight and we say, well, this doesn't seem so bad, you know, it's eight now and it's. 00:26:57
Five next year it might be 3 the year after that, and that doesn't seem so bad and before we know it. 00:27:04
We've paved paradise. 00:27:11
You know, and and that's what concerns me about this, this whole thing and that's why I asked about penalties and. 00:27:14
Whether we have options and so forth, so that's what I want us to consider. 00:27:21
Two other comments. 00:27:29
One is the timing. We're we're way ahead of the curve. I just went on unincorporated counties website, you're doing a survey to 00:27:32
see what they should do for external ADUS. 00:27:37
They're not in any hurry. They say right in their plan that they don't have the plan ready in 2025. 00:27:42
They're just doing the survey. Invited me to take the survey because apparently they can't tell whether you live in their 00:27:48
catchment area and then we only. 00:27:53
The ordinance itself was done in 2021, which is 2 years ago. 00:27:58
We've only actually. 00:28:04
Last year did something that's been less than a year and we're ready to change the ordinance again mainly driven I think because 00:28:05
of. 00:28:09
Two particular people. 00:28:13
And that I don't know why we're in a rush to change the ordinance. I do agree with one gentleman who wrote in it said why are we 00:28:16
in such a hurry? 00:28:20
To declare that it's not working and we need to do the next thing. Will be one of the very first cities to do this. I don't know 00:28:26
why we need to be the first city to do this. 00:28:30
There'll be a day when the legislature makes this do it, but right now, if we do this, my belief is that. 00:28:37
The development community will use holiday as leverage to tell a little holiday can do it, Anyone can do it. 00:28:45
And with that, I'm just going to pause real quick on the questions. We're at 603 and I'm just going to go ahead and close the work 00:28:53
meeting and then open the official meeting unless there's any reason not to. And I, since we don't have any members of the public 00:28:59
here, we'll go ahead and nominate the opening statement that we read and then we can continue the discussion. 00:29:06
So just for the record check mark. 00:29:13
But good, good comments and I guess just kind of along those same lines. 00:29:17
Before we go on with any further questions around the current text amendment, since the point has been brought up about just 00:29:22
concerns. 00:29:25
Of the intent and the scope of it thus far, some of our other commissioners gone, Baron Vilchinski, do you have similar thoughts 00:29:29
or concerns around that or opposing thoughts or concerns around that before we further the discussions? 00:29:35
I do observe the same thought. We put it very well, and in looking over there, they immediately thought. 00:29:43
So when it resulting application that we have. 00:29:51
And the amount of public that came out for that and your concerns? 00:29:56
And why they were OPP. 00:30:01
And so it concerns me changing the text or recommending changing the text and allowing. 00:30:04
For that same scenario to happen, knowing that we've had. 00:30:13
Citizens come forward and. 00:30:18
Opposed. 00:30:21
I don't feel like we can necessarily ignore. 00:30:23
OK, good comments, Commissioner, Baron or Commissioner gone? 00:30:29
Well, I just listening to all this, I wasn't a part of the previous discussion, so I appreciate the update. 00:30:32
Your input. 00:30:39
Have we had a lot of problems with this? 00:30:42
Obviously there's a couple of examples, but if somebody were to come in and get a building permit for an accessory building? 00:30:45
Garage storage that whatever you want as long as they met the. 00:30:53
Lot coverage, setbacks, building separation. We would issue a building permit, right? Yes. So we would issue a building permit for 00:30:59
an accessory building. 00:31:03
So is the concern that people might be living there at some point in time? 00:31:08
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I'm trying to figure out also what what we're envisioning is going to happen with 00:31:14
this. 00:31:17
And I don't have the history that you do. So I apologize if I'm stepping on a base toes and I don't mean to, but. 00:31:23
I think by the nature of the fact that the ordinance creates setbacks and additional things. 00:31:30
For these type of units doesn. 00:31:37
To some degree, mitigate the. 00:31:40
Right. 00:31:42
And that's that is the intention of. 00:31:44
Well, we can already build accessory buildings. If it's going to be a dwelling unit, how do you offset the impacts of that? 00:31:48
Considering. 00:31:56
The impacts of an internal accessory dwelling unit versus a external. Your parking is going to be the same. If you have a dwelling 00:31:58
unit that you're adding on to a house, you're adding one to two cars for that accessory dwelling unit, whether it's inside of a 00:32:05
house or outside of a house. So parking, long unit, accessory interior, exterior, they can only have one accessory dwelling unit 00:32:12
on the property. They can't have a basement unit and an external unit. 00:32:20
So it's limited to 1 accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:27
When you're with so the parking that's largely addressed, you're going to have that impact either way because we already allow an 00:32:32
internal accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:36
The impact is that you're having a dwelling unit that's closer to property lines and how is that then regulated and I think that. 00:32:42
What we discussed when we were looking at that R2 zone, so in R. 00:32:54
By creating smaller bots. 00:32:58
You're setting your property or your building further away from your property lines, so that's and I think that's sometimes missed 00:33:01
with the public. They just see it as density increasing. We're adding more units that aren't there currently, even though you have 00:33:07
a .4 acre lot. 00:33:13
An R2 zone would have allowed them to put another unit or two units on there. So now without having the R2 zone and they can't 00:33:20
subdivide, people are looking at accessory units. If you're building an accessory unit as a homeowner, you're going to locate it 00:33:26
further away. 00:33:32
So you get smaller setbacks with accessory units, so as a trade off. 00:33:39
Argue is there any logic in just making any type of accessory dwelling unit? 00:33:44
Have the same setbacks as the primary. 00:33:51
There are cities that do that. I think that Cottonwood Heights has that. That's pretty common. 00:33:54
So I mean, there's no advantage then? 00:34:00
The Accessory Dwelling. 00:34:04
And you keep within the setbacks of the building envelope. 00:34:05
Right. So does that make sense to everybody or so then you might have like I think our smallest rear yard setback is 25 feet. 00:34:11
So if you were going to do an external accessory dwelling unit, you'd have to have it be. 00:34:22
25 feet in and then whatever your side set back is, and that might be 5 feet, 8 feet. 00:34:28
And this makes it much smaller because this matches in the accessory building, which can be quite close, right? Right. 00:34:35
In addition to that, doesn't it also allow for the conversion of existing accessory buildings, which even if they're legal non 00:34:42
conforming, they can still be modified under this ordinance? 00:34:47
Right, the proposal, right. So if you have a shed in the back that you can't build today, but was built legally 20 years ago, you 00:34:52
can convert that to an accessory dwelling unit and even add a story onto it if you wanted to. 00:34:58
Right, but you just couldn't have windows opening on exterior side of adding windows. And if you're adding. 00:35:05
The text includes, if you're adding a second level onto it. One, you're still going to have to meet a graduated height 00:35:13
requirement. So if your building is really close to the property line, if it's existing and you're adding a second level. 00:35:19
Our graduated heights is like a 45° angle over from 8 feet up, so you go 8 feet up on the property line. 00:35:27
And at 45° over and your building can't be in or, it can't be outside of that 45° angle, so you're 80. You wouldn't be looking 00:35:34
over your neighbors right then. And so that's. We run into that With detached garages, it can't. 00:35:40
People want them to be super close, but a lot of times if they're going above a certain height, they have to back them away 00:35:48
anyway. So if you're going to a full 20 foot height, you probably have to back that away even further. 00:35:55
And then the second story window you can have any windows on. 00:36:03
On the property sides, just a slanted room you can have. You can have a clear story window that's six feet above so that you're 00:36:09
not having. If you have a second level or you have an accessory unit, you're not having windows that people can look out of on 00:36:15
neighboring property sites. 00:36:20
So what's the advantage to doing this? I mean if you got an existing, existing, existing unit? 00:36:33
I mean, I can understand why people would be concerned too then. 00:36:41
You know this to me doesn. 00:36:46
Makes sense that we're going to go ahead and promote people who have done something that. 00:36:47
Allowed the accessory building to be at 3 feet or five feet, whatever it is, and now we're going to go ahead and build. 00:36:53
Of actual dwelling unit there to me. 00:36:59
I worry about this existing stuff. 00:37:03
That was the concern as well is if we're looking at external external dwelling units, staff preference is to just have it meet the 00:37:06
standards from the beginning if you have an existing building. 00:37:13
That is already there. 00:37:21
Maybe you can't have any dwelling space in that, that you can add on to it and put dwelling space outside of that that needs the 00:37:23
standards. I mean, what you're suggesting to me meets. 00:37:28
Intent of the goal that the legislature's provided us. So I don't think we're, I think we're protecting the neighborhood, but also 00:37:34
meeting. 00:37:38
Expectation of the. 00:37:43
So in my mind that's where I would like to see this. 00:37:46
Because I think, and unfortunately too many things are existing. 00:37:50
And may not be legal at some point in. 00:37:54
And when you have non conforming in these kind of statements you all of a sudden things get really they can become very difficult 00:37:56
to. 00:38:01
Regulate. 00:38:06
I mean, just to give an example, I have a greenhouse in my backyard, right? And it's probably. 00:38:08
10 feet from the property line at the back and it's a big greenhouse I built in the I don't know, it's an aluminum frame, but the 00:38:14
footprint is there and it's an accessory building, right? And probably non conforming. I don't know. It's a mess, but. 00:38:22
I could if this were to pass as it's currently written because and find you I'm on 1/4 acre lot. This is not a big lot, right? 00:38:31
This is a small lot with a small split level home on it. 00:38:36
But if this. 00:38:43
Theoretically, and I go through, you know, the building permit process. 00:38:45
I could go in and I could put a two-story building in my backyard. As long as the windows don't face the neighbors and it's not 00:38:49
taller than my existing house, I now have a two-story home right behind my home. 00:38:56
That I can do as rental income or whatever. 00:39:03
I want it because it's a dwelling unit, right? And that depends on the set back. So if you're adding a second level on, it still 00:39:06
would have to meet the graduated height and if your existing footprint is. 00:39:12
Close to the property line, then you wouldn't be able to add a second. Well, I got 10 feet. I got, I got at least 10 feet. So I 00:39:18
got a good buffer. I'll meet that 45, no problem. But you run into that with any accessories unit. So it's just been adding the 00:39:24
dwelling unit portion. And we have people who call about their neighbors building a detached garage there. I guess too close to 00:39:30
the property line, it's too tall, but. 00:39:37
It's perfectly legal. 00:39:44
So they're meeting all the standards of graduated height. They're meeting the standards of. 00:39:46
Building heights setbacks. 00:39:50
That's all within those standards, but people don't like even just a detached accessory building. 00:39:53
That's large. 00:40:00
So I think the the concern I might be just echoing which is everybody, well most of the Commissioners on here voice which is. 00:40:02
We're opening this Pandora's box, so to speak, and I can already tell you that a third of my neighbors would be very unhappy if I 00:40:12
replaced my dilapidated greenhouse with A2 story rental home. 00:40:18
Right. And so I'm, I'm wondering because I do understand the intent of what we're trying to do and I'm not trying to stop new 00:40:25
housing like we've got to accommodate like there's going to be 3,000,000 more people living in the Wasatch Front over the next 25 00:40:30
years. 00:40:35
At our current growth rate, right. I'm not saying they'll have to live in holiday, but we should accommodate some of it, right, 00:40:40
and not just take the knot in my backyard approach. So with that being said, what? 00:40:45
With the planning commissioners feels an appropriate amendment to what's been presented. 00:40:51
I'm not as concerned about the half, eight, less than half acre people that had their, you know, dwelling units that wanted to 00:41:29
build next door. But the guy that literally bought a house with a mother-in-law apartment, but because it didn't open in his home, 00:41:35
it opened on the side of his home, He couldn't use it as a dwelling unit. In my mind that's like. 00:41:41
Making somehow that to be legal. 00:41:48
Seems to make sense or you know, comply with the city ordinance. So I think whatever text amendment allows for that to be OK, 00:41:51
maybe not so much the neighbors with the .4 acre lot. 00:41:57
But that's just me chiming in on that. So with that I'll kind of turn it back over to the Planning Commission to I have 00:42:03
Commissioner Ruth, I had a quick option as we're talking about the second level. I mean an option could be that you could allow 00:42:09
single level accessory falling units. 00:42:16
If within that closer set back, if you wanted to add a second level, it would have to meet the. 00:42:23
Setbacks required for a main structure. 00:42:30
I think there's a a difference between. 00:42:35
Building a separate structure and the neighbors go crazy because there's a separate garage being built. 00:42:39
And building a separate structure that somebody's actually going to. 00:42:46
And I think that's where people go, whoa, there's going to be neighbors right there. 00:42:50
I. 00:42:58
And I feel. 00:43:01
This group that this is an issue that. 00:43:04
Might require that we continue the discussion. 00:43:08
I don't feel that we have enough information. It just seems to me that we're evaluating this in a vacuum. 00:43:13
We don't know what the alternatives are. I understand that. 00:43:21
That we have an issue here. We have a problem and we've got a problem that is probably going to have to be addressed. 00:43:25
By this. 00:43:33
And I think this is 1. 00:43:37
Possible. 00:43:40
I think there might be other solutions but. 00:43:42
Should come before this Comm. 00:43:45
I don't know that, but I think that's a possibility. 00:43:48
I I just feel like we're looking at this in a vacuum. 00:43:52
And it just doesn't feel right to me at this time. It doesn't feel like we have enough information. 00:43:55
OK. Appreciate that. 00:44:03
Commission Commissioner. Gonna, yeah. 00:44:07
I I really like the idea of eight years. I think it keeps things, it increases density, which obviously we must do. 00:44:11
While keeping things residential, I would much rather live in an Edu or a house with an Adu than I would a box Cond. 00:44:20
100. 00:44:28
I think it's. I think it keeps it feeling like holiday without without building up, but it does increase density my my memory of. 00:44:30
So my questions are, how will the neighbors interact? 00:44:43
So I think I the suggestion about keeping them lower. 00:44:50
I I'm really interested in that. 00:44:54
I don't yet have clarity about. 00:44:59
In my mind about because I like the idea of consistent converting an existing structure, I think that makes it accessible for 00:45:01
people who may not otherwise be able to do it. 00:45:07
And I think part of the modern income housing as well, who are they renting to? It's a smaller thing. But also as we mentioned, 00:45:13
the people who can afford to live in the Holiday House are now people who have another income stream. I think that's. 00:45:19
A good idea? So so making it easier for people to convert things. I think that's a good idea, but I'm not quite sure of all of 00:45:27
the. 00:45:30
Implications of that, but I I think ideas are a good idea and I like them much better than. 00:45:35
Building a giant holiday hills and I like it a lot more So. So my questions are how? How will we make it feel like it's not so 00:45:42
close, but still. 00:45:48
Let people convert existing things. I think another question I had. 00:45:53
The big thing with Butternut 50 neighbors showed up and they said we all hate the traffic. 00:45:58
I don't know. I think 30 years in the future there are going to be twice as many cars in the Valley. 00:46:03
Or people can drive less. I just think that's a change that will happen in the Valley and I don't know how to. I don't know what 00:46:10
that will look like in the interim because. 00:46:15
Parking will be harder, traffic will increase and I and I don't know how to address that because of course there will be more 00:46:21
cars, there will be more people. 00:46:25
But but everyone hates it, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to balance that because realistically. 00:46:32
Just it will get harder to drive. Hopefully it will get easier to take public transit, but but what will that look like in the 00:46:41
holiday? Holiday will be on the trailing end of that because we're not very dense. 00:46:46
Anyway, so that so those are my thoughts I don't know how to address people's concerns about. 00:46:52
Parking. 00:46:57
Accepting that very long term way in 30 and 40 years. 00:47:00
I hope you are driving. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not sure what that looks like because that's not a convincing thing 00:47:05
right now. I don't want a bunch of people parking on my Rd. 00:47:09
But, but how do we move towards that? I don't know. And I think it's an awkward interim stage we're in right now. Yeah, I've got 00:47:14
got transportation piece and leveraging, you know, our transportation lines. We have a bus route that goes from Central station, 00:47:22
Frontrunner of 45th, it goes across Highland Drive and then goes up through the village and then up 45th South and goes to the 00:47:30
park and ride. I think getting to EU from on the bus, taking the bus takes 2530 minutes. 00:47:38
Which is pretty reasonable. I live in Bountiful and I took the bus when I was going to you and it was faster to take the bus 00:47:47
rather than. 00:47:51
Rather than driving and paying for parking and dealing with all of that. So there might be some people, especially on our bus 00:47:56
lines, if there's an accessory unit that's close to that, people would think, yeah, I'm going to live in a successory unit. It's 00:48:03
small. I'm a student. I can afford to live in this backyard unit or in a basement unit. 00:48:09
And I can walk to the bus. 00:48:17
Maybe that reduces I don't have to have a car. That was same situation when I was in school. We only had one car, so I took the 00:48:19
bus, went to school, we had one car. 00:48:24
So it's it's a feasible thing for families, young couples. 00:48:29
Roommate situations. They might have just one car between them that they use for getting around and then taking the bus. So that 00:48:35
smaller unit does does limit sometimes. 00:48:41
Cars and people who are looking for rentals, they're going to look at parking or say, oh, I have two cars. Your Adu here only has 00:48:48
one parking spot, so I can't rent this because I can't park here. 00:48:54
You might have some people. You might have some people who are like, well, I have two cars and. 00:49:01
Venom grew lying on street parking, which then I have to move my car every 24 hours. That might not be something that they want to 00:49:08
do anyway. 00:49:11
So, so I mean just based on my experience and I've only been here for seven months, but that was a really big sticking point for 00:49:15
people. I'm reluctant to plan around that. I'm reluctant to say this is the sticking point, so let's. 00:49:23
Let's not do it, but it, but it does seem like a big. 00:49:32
Simple and just to clarify, Commissioner Gong, so your your primary concerns are kind of along the height restriction and the 00:49:37
parking requirement? 00:49:41
Or making sure there are height restrictions. I should say I I my my primary concerns are. 00:49:47
Yeah, How do you, how do you maintain a sense of privacy if we're allowing people to get much closer to the fence, which I think 00:49:53
we should, so that people can convert existing things? 00:49:58
One answer that is keep them low so that they're not wearing every background. I think that might be. 00:50:04
I appreciate and respect what you're saying, Commissioner. Gone. However, I purchased the home that I purchased here in. 00:50:09
Because of it has a large block or I'm just over 1/2 acre? 00:50:17
And we liked the outdoor living space that we have. 00:50:22
That currently my home is surrounded where my lot is. 00:50:26
Is kind of back in a cul-de-sac area and I am surrounded. I've got 8 doctors and neighbors. 00:50:30
They've got eight different backyards it. 00:50:37
Are around the. 00:50:41
And accessory dwelling in it. So all of my neighbors have detached garages. 00:50:43
And they're all within 3 feet of my property. 00:50:50
My the one of my neighbors has 2 accessories building units right now. 00:50:55
Dwelling units or just accessory buildings? 00:51:01
Accessory and building. 00:51:07
And I am going to tell you right now that it's going to change my whole home. 00:51:10
If they turn those into dwelling units and are allowed to that close to my property line my neighbor to the South of me has, it's 00:51:17
not even a foot away from my house. 00:51:22
Well, that's reason that he has sounds illegal. It's not even a threat. Obey from my home. 00:51:30
So you get that many neighbors that all have these accessory buildings. 00:51:36
And they're putting dwelling in it. Then I always said him and living in the middle of. 00:51:41
An apartment complex. I have neighbors surrounding me. 00:51:48
It changes the whole landscape, it changes. 00:51:53
And so there's got to be something that we can do. Like I said, I respect and appreciate what you said as far as. 00:51:57
Existing buildings, people should be able to convert those, be able to use their property. I respect that. 00:52:05
But we need to do it in a way. 00:52:12
You know, I bought my home for a reason and it was because of that privacy, because of the backyard that I have. 00:52:15
And to have that stripped away like that. 00:52:21
I'm not so willing to let that go and just to clarify this, Commissioner. 00:52:26
The eight properties you have surrounding your backyard, just out of curiosity, are they all quarter or half acre lots as well or 00:52:32
or do you have an idea or those smaller like R1 lots? 00:52:37
OK. 00:52:43
The two right next door to me are larger lots, but the ones in the back, they're smaller lots. 00:52:44
Gotcha. Yeah. And that makes that makes a lot of sense to me. So I think this is a big concern. 00:52:51
How do how might we allow this without all of a sudden be like AH? 00:52:55
Yeah, yeah. 00:53:01
So then and just to kind of clarify on your sticking point. 00:53:02
Like a lot size restriction where if it was just potentially the two to the sides of you and not so much the the row of tiny ones 00:53:07
behind you, obviously, I don't think your eight neighbors at any course of time are all going to want to build rental homes. But 00:53:13
you never know, right? I mean maybe maybe the ones running the tanning booth and salon want some extra income or whatever, but. 00:53:20
Internal flowing units in these properties. 00:53:31
That two of my backyard universities renters downstairs and upstairs. 00:53:35
And so if they're allowed to then turn the garage. 00:53:40
They can only have one, so they have to get rid of. Yeah. You can't do both, yeah. 00:53:46
I mean, then you've got this whole I know I'm surrounded now. That being said, I do want to ask this just because it came up to my 00:53:50
mind. 00:53:54
An internal Adu. 00:53:59
Could they build that as bonus space as an external Adu and then say, well, we're not using our internal dwelling unit as a 00:54:01
dwelling unit, that's just bonus space now and our external is the the the dwelling unit. Can they can they do that technically 00:54:07
they can change their internal units so that it's part of the main dwelling and then just have their one accessory unit be the 00:54:13
external one? 00:54:19
And then the suddenly noncompliant when they start renting out the basement to their nephew or whatever, right? Doesn't this 00:54:27
suggest that really we have much more moderate income housing in the city than we're giving ourselves credit for? 00:54:34
Because we're only recognizing the ones that we've legitimized or are formalized. But I think it's true that we, as in most 00:54:40
cities, you have lots of inform. 00:54:46
Modern income, that doesn't mean any local codes, right? I mean, we, we do have probably a significant number of people who are 00:54:52
renting out basements without an Adu license. So if they don't get an Adu license, we don't know that they're renting out their 00:54:58
basement. There's no way to know that we. 00:55:05
Enforce enforce enforcement and licensing. Then our numbers would go up and our problem solved. Maybe, I know. 00:55:13
You still have the issue of OK as a property. 00:55:23
Maybe I don't want an internal unit. Maybe I want something that's a little bit more private. Maybe I have a larger family that's 00:55:27
taking up space and in my house now I want to build a one bedroom unit for. 00:55:33
A college student or for a single professional, and I totally get that. I would love to be able to do that. You can do that. 00:55:40
I just feel like there needs to be. 00:55:50
A minimum size I feel like by letting people do it. 00:55:56
Yeah. So we do have a maximum accessory building footprint. You could alter that to be even smaller for an external Edu. 00:56:00
And right now it's it scales based off of the property size. 00:56:10
I think it starts at 707. Fifty square feet. Did you remember 750? I thought it was an 800. 00:56:17
That's like a percent of the lot size or something, isn't it? 00:56:24
Generally you're also going to have your structures are going to be regulated by your lot coverage, so. 00:56:28
Structures can only cover a percentage of your property, so even with our conditional use permits. 00:56:36
You still can't go over the the lock coverage or a structure. Let me pull up those two tables for you to look at. 00:56:44
So if you were. 00:57:04
This is best set back distance for main structures, so if you wanted to limit. 00:57:06
Two Storey Adu or external Adu at all to be within the main footprint or area buildable area for a main structure this is what 00:57:13
you'd be looking at. For a smaller size property or 1/4 acre property, R110 zone at 20 feet or a rear property set back. 00:57:23
Of your career. 00:57:34
And then your sides are dependent on the arcing side. So that's that's the step back you would have if you wanted to limit 00:57:38
external dwelling units to be only allowed within the the building footprint of. 00:57:44
The main structure is there. A minimum set back between the main structure and the potential EAUD building code is 5 feet. It's 00:57:52
either 5 feet. So you basically could build a house and then build another house right behind it, just a little bit smaller. 00:58:00
Could you build a house in front of your house? Is there anything that says you can't build this in your friend or guess you have 00:58:08
to. Front yard setbacks are controlled by what is already existing on the street. 00:58:13
So when property owners come in and want to add on to the house, a lot of times it's very hard for them to add on to the front at 00:58:18
all, because they have to average the setbacks for all their neighboring properties on the same side of the street. So they take 00:58:24
two houses on one side, 2 houses on the other side. 00:58:30
Closest and furthest point for each of those properties, and that's their average set back that determines their set back for the 00:58:37
front yard. 00:58:40
So it's there's it's more variable. Most cities will just have a standard 25 foot front yard set back. Ours we do averaging. 00:58:45
Where you can come closer and then you have to go further back. As long as you're meeting that average, that's interesting. 00:58:55
I'm going to lot coverage. 00:59:02
This is the percent coverage of all structures, so on a lot less than 10,000 square feet. 00:59:06
Your structures can only cover 35%. 00:59:14
So if you have a very large house on. 00:59:17
Quarter acre property, you're limited on how much area you can cover A. 00:59:21
Let me give you an example here. Now that doesn't include any of the the cement hardscape associated with the house. That is just. 00:59:28
Structures, roof structure, right? 00:59:38
Yeah. So on 1/4 acre property. 00:59:41
That is not that. 00:59:46
Not that either. 00:59:54
I do this all the time. They get I can't do it. 00:59:58
It's because we're watching here. 01:00:02
Would be 3500 square feet on a 10,000 lot, right? 01:00:05
Thank you. You're welcome so. 01:00:09
So if you have a 2000 square foot Rambler, you're limited to additional 1500 for all of your accessory buildings. 01:00:13
15 hundreds of mansions. 01:00:21
Your rear yard is limited to. 01:00:25
25% so. 01:00:30
Cover more than 25% of your rear yard. 01:00:33
And then accessory buildings, these are your footprints. So on that quarter acre property, 850 square feet. 01:00:37
If they wanted to build a building with a footprint larger than that, they would have to seek a conditional use permit, so then 01:00:46
you would see that application. 01:00:51
So 850 square feet. 01:00:58
Generally is about the size. 01:01:01
Two-bedroom apartment. A small two-bedroom apartment. 01:01:03
My first house was 850. 01:01:08
That included the garage. 01:01:11
Yeah. 01:01:14
So the text. 01:01:15
Accessory dwelling unit so increases to five feet from 4 feet. 01:01:19
So the draft we have in front of us for the text amendment. 01:01:25
And I apologize for not knowing this, but is the language in there that it already requires all these same setbacks. So these 01:01:29
minimums you're showing us is the minimums regardless of the the lot size, Yes, So those are on. 01:01:36
Lines 4445. 01:01:46
46 and 47 and 47 is the one that you could alter if you wanted to limit it to a single level within a certain distance, and they 01:01:50
could only go up to 20 feet for an external dwelling unit if they increase that setbacks even further. 01:01:58
So you could increase another 25 or 30% or? 01:02:08
Twilight structure. 01:02:14
But. 01:02:18
This would if they're going to turn it into an accessory dwelling unit. They have an accessory building already existing on the 01:02:20
property, and they want to turn it into a dwelling unit. They wouldn't need to still comply with these standards, so that's when 01:02:27
the next section #8 comes in. 01:02:33
So the legal non conforming is the concern. 01:02:42
That you have is that people that have these garages right up in the corner of their property, right up next to three or four 01:02:45
neighbors back there that want to put in their tiny home, apartment, whatever on 1/4 acre lot. 01:02:52
They can do it as long as their roof doesn't allow windows that view the neighbors and even if we did a height restriction and 01:03:00
said single layer. 01:03:04
You still have a neighbor. 01:03:09
2 feet from your house. 01:03:12
Well enough that. 01:03:15
The fact that it's a non compliant, non conforming whatever or no legal. 01:03:17
Building that this can't be used to legitimize or legalize what they've done, in other words. 01:03:25
You know, the fact that it's there doesn't mean they can change it de facto into that, but if if we can write that in, that would 01:03:31
be a great improvement, right? And that was the position where City Council directed us to look at converting accessory buildings. 01:03:38
A discussion that could be had OK, here's why the Planning Commission. 01:03:47
Suggested this language because you have these non complying buildings and here's the problem. OK that. 01:03:53
And maybe a point of discussion on that she. 01:04:02
Are there any standards that you feel could offset the impacts from minor conversion converting? Are there any? 01:04:06
Additional standards that. 01:04:14
Or is it just? 01:04:17
Not comfortable at all with any converting of accessory building. I mean where would you put the, where would you put the changes 01:04:20
because they don't have any room on their property. The person impacted is the one that's going to have to put up a higher fence 01:04:25
or be allowed to have an 8 foot fence or. 01:04:30
Have to put landscaping and that burden shouldn't be on the person being impacted. 01:04:36
You could have those be standards that are. 01:04:42
With the applicant. So if you have a non conforming structure I think the standards on there are have all the same standards and 01:04:47
then adding no windows or doors. 01:04:53
So an accessory building may have a door on a property side, or they may have a window on an accessory or on a property side. So 01:05:00
do you want to require filling those? 01:05:05
And relocating those, I think that would be reasonable. The fire department says no, they got to have an exit. I have two exits 01:05:11
from the house, so you have to, you have to put a new exit on or a new or new window. 01:05:18
I mean, I have. 01:05:27
Legal non conforming shed large right up against the fence, like there's less than a foot between my fence of my neighbors and my 01:05:29
shed that was built before I purchased the property. 01:05:34
And if I wanted to convert that and just say, well, there's no doors and windows on your side, sorry, they have a drum set like, 01:05:41
you know, I could see where that'd be a little bit of a concern. I mean, is there a way to? 01:05:45
Say is there an altar to the language? We can say that your non conforming well not even necessarily non conforming structure, but 01:05:51
you could just say hey look existing structures that you want to convert to dwelling unit have to be. 01:05:58
Within certain setbacks and there is no non conforming allowance so that you can't add dwelling space within that structure, but 01:06:07
you could maybe add. 01:06:13
Some area onto that structure that would be compliant with. 01:06:20
External. I think as long as you write it so that city staff has the ability to mitigate all those things, I don't want them all 01:06:25
back here. 01:06:30
Right. Agree that that doesn't we just got rid of the hallmark. 01:06:35
That, that now, I don't want to start with every, every conversion that has to happen and that. So I think you have to, you know, 01:06:42
shut that down as much as you can up front and whatever discretion the city staff can have. 01:06:49
Including saying no, sometimes the answer is there is nothing that was sufficiently mitigate what you want to do. 01:06:57
OK, so even though the zone allows it, there's something else that's a non complying building is stopping it from happening. You 01:07:06
could tear it down, put it in the right spot and make it a dwelling. 01:07:11
Or I guess the other alternatives they have a. 01:07:17
Existing accessory building. 01:07:22
A foot too close, You know, if you're looking at these increases, so you need an additional foot, then you have to frame another 01:07:27
interior wall that's a foot in from that. So you're not adding the dwelling space within those required setbacks. 01:07:35
You're only adding dwelling space where it would be building a new building anyway, but you're still kind of using the existing, I 01:07:43
believe in giving staff some discretion to deal with those kinds of very minimal kinds of things. OK. I don't think it's those 01:07:50
that are going to be a problem. It's the one that's three feet off the line and that and now it's a house with people moving in 01:07:57
and out doing house activities, which is very different than it being used as a garage. 01:08:04
SO11 recent example that we had a permit for was a They built a interior enclosed pool which is within their set accessory 01:08:12
building set back and then right next to that they built a pool house. Their original plan had a bedroom and kitchen and bathroom 01:08:20
in that pool house. 01:08:28
Their stuff. They were. 01:08:37
Close enough on their set back that it met the standard for an accessory building, but did not meet the standard for an accessory 01:08:38
dwelling unit. So for that then we have to highlight and record something against the property that it can't be used as an 01:08:44
accessory dwelling unit. 01:08:49
So you have an accessory building that has space. Is it going to be used for living space? Are they if you have a bedroom that's 01:08:56
built there? 01:09:00
Is somebody going to be living there eventually? 01:09:05
Maybe then it becomes a code enforcement issue, which? 01:09:09
It's manageable. 01:09:14
But already people can build accessory buildings. They can build bonus spaces. They can build something. They can use those 01:09:16
spaces. They can have people that are occupying those spaces for recreational purposes. They could build a game room that is in 01:09:22
their existing garage. That's. 01:09:27
May have significant impacts as well. They could convert their garage to a music space where they are used because they don't want 01:09:34
to have their drum set in their house, so they're going to build their detached garage or convert to use their detached garage for 01:09:40
their drum and band practice. Pretty common. 01:09:46
So people are already using. 01:09:53
Some of these structures for an accessory, kind of. 01:09:56
Umm, I think what the standards you're just trying to offset if somebody were to be living there consistently, right. Well that's 01:10:01
the changing of the characteristic of the neighborhood that's impactful that goes to kind of I think that the highlighted point 01:10:07
almost unanimously across the group which is you know we're we're not opposed to the Adu, the EADU or trying to to check the box 01:10:14
to to make sure that we qualify for transit money. 01:10:20
Now that that's the only reason, but it's definitely the large incentive. 01:10:28
But it's that we want to make sure that whatever we put in here doesn't open up that door to where all of a sudden, now, you know, 01:10:33
neighbors have sudden houses popping up in between houses that are freaking them out and they're going, when did this happen? 01:10:40
Right. 01:10:48
Anybody disagree with that? 01:10:50
OK. 01:10:53
It's not just us. It will be our kids. And maybe they're cool with it. They're cool with a lot of things, but. 01:10:58
Back in 2021 when the Council. 01:11:05
The only significant change they made in the recommendation was to not allow it in all zones because it was recommended to be in 01:11:10
all zones initially, right. So it is, it is allowed in all zones. So that's where you see we have a set back for externally used. 01:11:18
But the amount of properties that are half an acre or larger in an R110 zone are? 01:11:26
You and far between and if you have a property that's a half acre in an R110 zone. 01:11:34
Was it more likely to subdivide it and just create 2 units anyway? Was it the survey that got them to change it? Because the 01:11:40
surveys pretty clear that nobody wanted it in all zones. No, it was. 01:11:46
I think you. 01:11:54
The survey was not. 01:11:56
Let me spell down to that, the other thing I wanted to clarify on what was in the packet and I was just curious on this, is it 01:12:00
kind of show the the progression of like you know, oh, I had my family, now I'm retired and I have my little cane, you know, 01:12:08
infographic and I moved into the EA, UV and now some other family I'm renting to. So I'm just curious, can the owner occupant live 01:12:16
in their accessory unit and then rent out the main structure and that allows people to stay on their property and maybe have. 01:12:24
A caretaker with their family. 01:12:32
House while they live in the accessory unit. 01:12:34
They could build an accessory unit that needs accessibility challenges if their main home doesn't. 01:12:37
Allow them. If they have mobility challenges, maybe they want something that's. 01:12:44
Single level they can build that in the. 01:12:48
And then rent a so that it retains that privacy. I think that's a major hurdle. If you think about your own use as well, do you do 01:12:51
I want to convert 2 units or two bedrooms in my basement? There's. 01:12:58
There's a privacy trade off that you have there that some people would rather move it a little bit further away and have some more 01:13:06
privacy for a much smaller unit. You know you don't want and maybe you don't want to have a family of six living in your accessory 01:13:11
dwelling unit either. It's likely that you oh, I only want one person or a couple living here, so I'm just going to make it a one 01:13:17
bedroom. 01:13:22
Because with the property. 01:13:29
Kind of initial initiating that. 01:13:32
Building of an external unit. 01:13:36
They're taking their own youth into consideration. 01:13:38
Let me let's look at the poll really quick. 01:13:43
So which donor should ADUS be permitted? 01:13:53
Single family zones with 10,000 square foot lot size or larger. 01:13:57
Much smaller percentage of. 01:14:03
Half acre or larger preference. 01:14:07
So at least 10,000. 01:14:10
So you could say. 01:14:12
Maybe not included in the R18 film that has an 8000 square foot lot minimum size. 01:14:14
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm headed, I mean. 01:14:21
Do we have to bite off the whole thing or do we? 01:14:24
Go to the next size down and say let's see what happens. Because the problems become the smaller the lot size, the bigger the 01:14:28
problems and I think the impact of density. 01:14:33
You know, on those kind of folks, they're going to be complaining and stuff like that. 01:14:40
And if you look at I. 01:14:45
Obviously holidays, not new development, but typical new developments. And what a lot of people are looking at is smaller lot 01:14:49
sizes anyway. 01:14:53
New houses are typically 15th of an acre, 10th of an acre to maybe tops quarter of an acre. For new development. I think 1/4 of an 01:14:59
acre is considered larger than so. 01:15:06
Reasonably adding a second smaller unit onto 1/4 of an acre. 01:15:15
Would be reasonable. 01:15:21
But as you get into those larger lots in those smaller zones that falls back on the it's easier to subdivide anyway, right? 01:15:24
Because what's the minimum you have to have to subdivide in holidays and like 11,000 or something like that? 01:15:30
I think so. 01:15:38
And you have to have both your property. Both lots have to meet the minimum lot size in the zone, yeah. 01:15:39
So whatever the zoning is for like R110, it would be like 11 or 12,000, something like that. 01:15:46
R18 zone, so there was enough land area there for 4 units. 01:15:56
So those 4 units could put Eadus on them. 01:16:04
In an R18 zone, if you wanted to allow for that, yes, but it's a PUD. So we approved building areas. We didn't approve external 01:16:10
building area pads, but if it weren't if. 01:16:16
They're also limited on their structure size. So I think that developer was already looking at kind of maximizing that structure 01:16:24
coverage for the full property. They're one of the extra. 01:16:29
Structure coverage. Typically, I don't think people want to move into Puds want it so they can have external living units. 01:16:35
They're. 01:16:38
Zoning amount by owning all of the property but the quarter acre. 01:16:43
The homes and gingers. 01:16:49
On quarter acre log. 01:16:51
Could. 01:16:53
EAD is on them. 01:16:55
And Ginger could build a guest house on property. You're going to write great language that will stop that if it's. 01:16:58
And all the neighbors that have half an acre larger we do conditional. 01:17:04
And I think on half maker it's 1200 square foot footprint right across the fence on the other side to show that. 01:17:11
Can I suggest that we do two things? One is that we open and close a public hearing. 01:17:20
So that's off the agenda. Absolutely. And 2nd, we continue this to a future meeting. 01:17:26
For more language. 01:17:33
If you. 01:17:36
Hopefully there's lots of things to. 01:17:37
Yeah. And I would, I would ask are there anything, anything specific that you'd like worked in? 01:17:40
Can we get a copy of this in an editable version that we can add our comments so that you're not having to try and? 01:17:47
Write all this down. Yes, because I think there's been a lot of great suggestions here, but. 01:17:54
To consolidate that into a code, maybe a little. 01:18:00
I've been taking some notes. 01:18:04
Go into weirdness with a public meeting. Can we just continue the public meeting? 01:18:07
Changes externally or adding comments onto. 01:18:13
A document that I would send digitally, so as long as we. 01:18:18
Those come back. So we're continuing this as I understand. So as long as we're going over them in a meeting again, then that's not 01:18:22
an issue, but you don't want to be sending them to each other. 01:18:27
The other thing that I've been working on as well is looking at how many parcels we have that are half an acre or larger, so that 01:18:36
you're seeing, OK, but likely people who have 1/2 acre or larger are going to be building a larger guest house. 01:18:44
Because they can't subdivide, but they may want to build a second house, their properties bigger enough they'll do. I guess we can 01:18:52
do everything. 01:18:56
And the only the only other comment. 01:19:01
That I don't think we address as a group was whether or not to require one off. 01:19:04
Street parking, and I think we ought to weigh in on that because I think that's the biggest issue. When the public says they don't 01:19:10
like it and everything else, what they really mean is. 01:19:14
Parking and do we want to make it 1 parking space of 1 1/2? I think we ought to give you some feedback on that. And then. 01:19:20
So right now the code is that one would be required for an Adu and that's internal or external. So right now if somebody had a 01:19:30
three bedroom basement unit that they converted into a accessory dwelling unit. 01:19:37
They're only required to have one parking. 01:19:44
If you wanted to change that to tie into our off street parking requirements, that's controlled by the number of bedrooms, so one 01:19:47
bedroom. 01:19:51
One parking space, 2 bedrooms, 1 1/2 parking spaces and three bedrooms is 2 parking spaces. 01:19:56
Doing it on bedroom count. 01:20:04
How do you I have that round up? 01:20:09
You can own a motorcycle. 01:20:15
2 Smart cars. 01:20:18
So I mean when you have a house that has a garage, a house. 01:20:21
There are two parking spaces or the garage and then you have parking in the driveway, so that's two parking spaces. So that's 01:20:26
meeting the requirement. They don't have to add parking, they just have to show that they have. 01:20:32
But if they convert the garage and lose the tube inside, they have to replace. 01:20:39
Great. And our code doesn't allow for the conversion of a garage. You have to retain a garage, and that's the same thing if you 01:20:43
have a carport. You can't eliminate your carport and enclose your carport living space. You have to, since I asked for parking 01:20:49
space. 01:20:54
So the the notes that I have just you know hopefully she's been jotting all these down too as we're looking for potentially doing 01:21:01
the lot size restrictions. 01:21:06
Is that right? We want to see something in there that restricts lot size whether we do that by zone? 01:21:11
Or we just do it by lot, Size itself. But we we definitely don't want to see a bunch of EAUD. 01:21:17
I can't even say it. Anyway, we don't the extra homes being built on Tiny. 01:21:23
We're also looking at the height restriction that you brought up on line 47 of keeping that down to single level. 01:21:28
Unless anybody had an opposition to that parking requirements to match off St. and then something is clarification is that height 01:21:36
restriction? Is that for any accessory Adu or for conversion ad? 01:21:43
I think it was within the, yeah, the existing units that. 01:21:52
Are within 3. 01:21:56
I'd like to figure out what's a good standard by the setbacks so that we can kind of get comfortable because. 01:21:58
Paul, you're absolutely right. These are garages and they're meant for cars and not people. 01:22:04
And I think that's the reason why. 01:22:10
Everybody allows them to go so much closer to the property lines. The conversion to me is kind of counterintuitive to. 01:22:13
Making sense with this and so I don't want to create a code that then exacerbates the impact, you know. So going with what you 01:22:20
guys were suggesting, it's a height restriction based on if it's within a certain with I guess within the set back or the typical 01:22:27
building set back. 01:22:34
For accessories and I don't want to make it so confusing, the staff can't understand how to do it either so and then non 01:22:41
conforming. 01:22:44
I don't whether whether we want to just say no, you got to tear it down and build it within parameters or no. You just can't build 01:22:50
that as an accessory dwelling unit because you're too close to the property line and tough. It's tear down or show that your 01:22:55
living space is only within. 01:23:01
Well, I think that's dangerous too. As soon as the building's built and you're you've gone with final inspection, that part of the 01:23:08
wall gets taken and they start using the whole thing, so. 01:23:13
That's the same sort of issue that I think we can address with recording of. 01:23:20
You know this is only the permitted area. You can't have living space that extends into here. We've had like one basement that is 01:23:26
had to be dugout like 8 feet, but. 01:23:31
We had to designate on their plan and worry court against the property that that area can't ever be converted to living space. 01:23:38
Because it's all foundation like an 8 foot foundation and walls that are in there structurally. 01:23:46
So the future or the current homeowner is like, Oh yeah, no, this is not living space. We're not ever going to. 01:23:52
Storage space because it was a fire code issue with the square footage. 01:23:59
But having that specifically called out as this cannot be living space, Nobody can. It's on the title or recorded on the property. 01:24:04
Those were the suggestions that I had written down. Any others that we want to add in there before we? 01:24:14
Move forward, OK. And then as far as the public meeting, do we open and close and then we'll just have another public meeting 01:24:20
after the revised for the next draft or do we just leave the public meeting open? 01:24:26
The Planning Commission? Really. So you can open it and allow public comment and close it. 01:24:33
Since no one's here or you could open it and leave it open, have these suggestions come back in another draft the next time or. 01:24:39
However long that takes. 01:24:48
Or you can, You know, it's that's up to your prerogative. I mean, how much public input do you want? It was properly noticed so 01:24:50
public could have weighed in today. A couple members did with their emails and written comments. So if we leave public comment 01:24:56
open, doesn't that immediately put it on the the next agenda though? 01:25:01
Yeah, it will be on the next one. We don't you'll have it done either. OK, well, I just want to make sure staff has adequate time, 01:25:09
unless you want to have more time. 01:25:13
Look at it. The other thing that I can look at is how many properties do have accessory buildings on them. 01:25:17
And maybe a rough idea of what? 01:25:26
Some of those are going to be really close, some of them are going to be on properties that are. 01:25:30
Identified. Which ones are, you know, legal, non conforming and which ones are, you know, permitted? 01:25:36
It would be just a very rough like snapshot like here's. Here's what you'd be looking at. 01:25:42
Conversion. 01:25:48
How many properties could? 01:25:50
Possibly convert would probably be helpful to Anne as well just so we it's on the radar of what our Max potential is, right? 01:25:54
Going to be a lot of scrolling, so and what are the chances that we're ever going to be in compliance? 01:26:01
We're in compliance because there's no number. 01:26:08
Ordinance that you have to have in the process. The real challenge and the real fight is. 01:26:14
You know, the east side developed first. 01:26:19
Right, closer to the nicer mountains, in my opinion. 01:26:23
So developed, you know, closer to the greater, more abundant water sources, that's pretty standard how development works in the 01:26:28
West. You find the water, you develop there first. Well, So what we have is a whole bunch of land that was held by a major 01:26:34
corporation that has been released by that major corporation over the last 20 years and sold as housing. And so you have all of 01:26:41
this modern income housing demand. 01:26:47
And the pressure is on three cities. 01:26:54
That are include that land and so you have that development that's occurring. 01:26:58
And you have a percentage, I mean holiday what is probably 95% single family homes, 5% apartment type things? 01:27:04
And you have the ratios there of more like 6040 and you know on the West side of the foot of the the Ochers and so there's all 01:27:12
this pressure that this moderate income housing is going to be. 01:27:19
Disproportionately. 01:27:27
Borne by. 01:27:28
Cities and the consequences 30 years and 40 years down the road from now are going to be. 01:27:30
Largely different than what they hear and that's just a fact, right? That's so, but that's where kind of this tension is coming in 01:27:37
the legislature. And so that's why these strategies, there's 26 if I remember. 01:27:42
Choose five. 01:27:48
And largely built out cities are very limited in the options that they can choose. 01:27:51
They just don't work because there's not undeveloped land. Could you tell us what the other ones are off the top of your hood? 01:27:58
Some of the other the other strategies that holidays opted for. 01:28:06
I can pull up the modern guessing plan. 01:28:10
We have the strategy E which is creating attached to the atheist strategy F. 01:28:14
That was his owner. We don't for hire dancing. 01:28:20
In their transit areas. 01:28:24
Strategy H. 01:28:27
Amend land use regulations to eliminate and reduce parking requirements, which we did. 01:28:29
A strategy L. 01:28:36
Which was reduced weight and eliminate impact fees related to moderate income housing. Reduced fees impact fee impact fees. 01:28:38
And then strategy. 01:28:48
Which was applied for partner with an entity who applies for funding state funding. 01:28:50
So that is largely. 01:28:56
We have one film that we change partnering with the Room, the holiday converts some of their is that the one up near the gravel 01:29:02
pit. 01:29:06
So converting professional offices to I think they got what was that 80 units that we got out of that or something like that, 100 01:29:10
units, OK. 01:29:14
Well, and one of the things, one of the components of Holiday Hills is that tax increment incentive. So a certain portion of that 01:29:19
money that comes the increment financing has to go back into moderate income housing. If a portion of it is already earmarked by 01:29:26
state law, the difference that you're getting off of that, you can invest some of that back into the property to incentivize the 01:29:32
redevelopment, but a portion of it has to go into moderate income housing in the city. 01:29:39
And the last strategy is Strategy P, which demonstrate utilization of the moderate income housing set aside. 01:29:46
Funding. 01:29:54
So we're like most of the way there on most of these, right? Like. 01:29:57
We got a good head start and feels good about it. 01:30:01
Some tweaking ready so that that's actually doing something awesome. All right, Well, my personal opinion is that we probably, if 01:30:04
we're going to go back and revise the text before we make a recommendation to City Council that we probably had to allow the 01:30:10
public at least to comment on any revisions that are made. 01:30:16
That's just my opinion, So I would think that we probably should go ahead and open the public meeting and then if someone wants to 01:30:22
make a motion to continue. 01:30:27
I'll be happy to make a motion to continue the public hearing. All right, public hearing and this agenda item tonight. 01:30:33
And do we have a second? 01:30:41
All right. Got a second. Can we just do it all in favor on it? All in favor, say aye. Any opposed? All right, fantastic. So with 01:30:43
that, we have continued that and I'll go ahead and make a motion for the Commission to adjourn. All in favor? Aye. All right, 01:30:49
we'll see you next time. 01:30:55
Thank you everyone. Thank you. 01:31:02
scroll up