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Give me just a minute. 00:00:01
Fantastic. So with that, this is the Holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 5:34 PM on. 00:00:03
That's not right. 00:00:14
January 23rd 2024 and. 00:00:17
In attendance we have Commissioner Baron, Commissioner Gong, Chair Rd. Commissioner for. 00:00:21
Mr. Cunningham. 00:00:28
City staff and council, and with that we have one item on the agenda. 00:00:31
Tonight and it is the text amendment around accessory dwelling units and carries going to present on that and then are we going to 00:00:37
have our guests present during the work meeting or during the public hearing. 00:00:44
I will have Anne Garcia present during the public meeting. 00:00:52
Perfect. Perfect. With that, then I will turn it over to you and let's talk about Adus and all the fun they have. 00:00:59
So I guess do we want to start with any questions that any of you had on the proposed changes? 00:01:06
I know we had a discussion on this in October, November. 00:01:13
The biggest change on it is. 00:01:18
Well, I guess a few key changes defining the owner occupancy that is consistent with the home occupations so that it matches up as 00:01:22
having a formal definition within both of those as to what an owner occupied is. 00:01:29
Yes, owner occupied. 00:01:40
Blood marriage. 00:01:43
Means that the owner can never has to live. 00:01:45
As long as one of those people does so, that could be a Ranger. 00:01:51
My cousin. 00:01:57
Thank you cousin his friends. 00:01:59
Live in. 00:02:04
As long as. 00:02:07
Is OK. 00:02:09
Then we will pretend that the owner doesn't. 00:02:11
And that's owner occupancy can be a little bit tricky. We run into that issue with enforcement as well. How do you verify if you 00:02:15
have? 00:02:19
And we do have the property ownership affidavit, so it would be stated, here's the property owner whoever's listed on the title 00:02:24
deed, and then the agent would be a family member. 00:02:30
And you run into things with. 00:02:40
You have a lot of properties and Holiday are owned by LLC's or they'll put the property in an LLC specific for the property. 00:02:43
Sometimes it's a family trust. 00:02:48
So where there's so many family trusts, LLCS, various things that kind of. 00:02:55
I think just some consistency there as to what a family member. 00:03:00
Is defined as. 00:03:05
And the other major part on that is adding. 00:03:11
The standards for if you were to convert an existing accessory building. 00:03:16
A lot of those are going to be closer in setbacks. 00:03:22
Some of them may have a doorway or windows on a property line side, so how do you address those? So having some standards in the 00:03:27
code to address converting existing, that was the main direction from the City Council was we want to look at how we can convert 00:03:34
existing accessory buildings, so that's what adding that section is. 00:03:41
We did also remove the lot minimum size. 00:03:51
Of half an acre or twice the minimum lot size. As you've seen with some of our conditional use permits for building footprint 00:03:55
size, they're typically on properties that are half an acre or larger and they're wanting to put a bigger house. So properties 00:04:04
they can't subdivide but want to have a larger structure on there or a larger accessory building with a accessory unit. 00:04:12
And that was consistent. The reasoning behind removing nuts is because we have the guest house allowance on half an acre or larger 00:04:23
properties and consistent with the polling data that we had from when we initially did the accessory dwelling unit text in 2021. 00:04:32
The history with adding that half an acre and twice the minimum lot size, that was an addition that was added in after it was 00:04:44
recommended by Planning Commission by the City Council. 00:04:49
So Planning Commission initially didn't have that qualification in when we when you made the recommendation or when they made the 00:04:56
recommendations to the council and then that was added in by City Council after the public hearing there. 00:05:02
So can I ask the tough question? Are they asking for recommendation on should they make this change? 00:05:11
Or are they asking for recommendation on? Are these the changes that would carry out the direction that they want to go? 00:05:18
That's. 00:05:27
Well, just to the the preface if and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but this is a state mandated legislative change that we're 00:05:30
falling in compliance with by making these changes or no. So the moderate income housing goals is the state is looking for actual 00:05:39
application of the strategies. So we have strategies to meet our moderate income housing goals. 00:05:48
And then they want in the reporting for moderate income housing, how are we actually meeting those? How are we taking action on 00:05:58
those strategies? So the strategy that's outlined in the staff report is to reduce regulations related to accessory dwelling 00:06:05
units, but there's no current statute or no requirement from the legislature currently to have have it applied to all zones in the 00:06:11
city. 00:06:18
No, OK. 00:06:26
So and to clarify on that, if we just were to water the text amendment down to one thing, would that be considered meeting the 00:06:29
qualification of modification or is there a certain number of them that have to be adjusted? Yeah. 00:06:35
Any any sort of modification. So if we just change one thing that made it a little bit looser on the very minor minor detail check 00:06:43
that box right. And then down the line as we're reporting on that is that effective, has that actually produced any housing units 00:06:50
And so that's kind of the point where we're looking at that half acre size. Yes, we've had some applications for accessory 00:06:57
dwelling units on half acre lots, but we're not getting the. 00:07:04
For and, there's some internal accessory building units or attached to the main house. 00:07:12
So we do get permits on those. Those are in the staff report. 00:07:17
But we do deny applications for if they're not 1/2 acre and they want to do an external accessory going in it. 00:07:22
And it isn't really driving. This is the one. 00:07:29
Accessory unit will be setting. 00:07:34
That that was. 00:07:39
What brought it to the council's attention is they said OK, well, rezoning is a strategy in our general plan to meet moderate 00:07:42
income housing goals. If we're not going to necessarily rezone, maybe we need to look at our Adu ordinance and so specifically 00:07:49
looking at converting existing accessory growing units. 00:07:55
As a way to meet smaller income housing goals. 00:08:02
And is Does that boil down? 00:08:05
Allowing ad. 00:08:09
On smaller properties. 00:08:12
And one is currently allowed. 00:08:14
So those two properties we I think that case that college referring to, there were three different owners that came in all. 00:08:18
And there were two of the properties that they wanted to rezone because they weren't large enough properties to put. 00:08:28
And accessory dwelling again. So with this text amendment they would be able to go ahead. 00:08:37
And build. 00:08:44
Right. So if you're looking at those three properties, one is .16 acres has an existing accessory detached building that has a 00:08:48
studio or basement unit basement, it's bonus space. So they can't use it as a dwelling unit. So it's just bonus space. So that 00:08:56
amending the text to allow for the conversion of existing. 00:09:04
Accessory buildings to dwelling units would allow that property owner to converge their accessory volume unit or their accessory 00:09:14
building to an accessory dwelling unit. The other two properties, one is .40 acres, I think the other one is .30 acres. Neither of 00:09:21
those properties could build an accessory loan unit with this text amendment. With the text amendment if you remove the half acre 00:09:29
lot size minimum that they could. 00:09:36
But as is, they cannot. 00:09:44
Kerry, correct me if I'm wrong. So this was about a year ago, the Planning Commission reviewed our moderating maybe just two years 00:09:48
ago now moderate income housing plan and legislature mandated and we had to have, we had to pick if I remember it, there had to be 00:09:55
like 7. They offered what was it 30 different strategies and we had to choose at least seven as part of your moderate income 00:10:03
housing plan. I may be off on those two numbers, but there was a number that you had to choose and the city had could. 00:10:10
City Council could choose whichever one they wanted, but because it's the land use. 00:10:18
An element to the general plan, the Planning Commission had to do that. So we adopted that and one of the things that the moderate 00:10:22
income housing element that Ledma requires. 00:10:27
That's the Land Use Development Management Act. It's 10984 O3 in the general Plan, preparation of which the Moderate Income 00:10:34
Housing Plan is a part of that, but it says. 00:10:39
Each General Plan or Moderate Income Housing Plan has to have a component that. 00:10:45
A provides A realistic opportunity to meet the need for additional moderate income housing within the municipality during the next 00:10:51
five years, and there's also reporting requirement annually on that for a city the size of holiday and I can't remember the floor 00:10:57
on that, but holiday meets that requirement so they have to report back to DWS. 00:11:03
There once the initial requirement was to. 00:11:10
Have a moderate income housing. 00:11:14
The second, the next year, is to report back on progress made in. 00:11:16
Either adopting more. 00:11:22
Liberal policies that allow for more modern housing to be developed within your municipality. So that's what this is also part of. 00:11:25
It's not just. 00:11:29
That that came up with that. 00:11:35
That those particular things came to the attention of the City Council. It's also the legislature is requiring cities to do this. 00:11:38
So these are taking from the strategies that we adopted and implementing them. So and it can introduce Ann Garcia Housing Director 00:11:45
and she you can she can answer any questions for you as well on what those moderate income housing bills are what direction from 00:11:52
City Council from the city manager has been. 00:12:00
And do you want to? 00:12:08
Introduce yourself and maybe give a little bit of background as we're all talking about it. 00:12:09
Economic Development and Housing Manager. 00:12:16
We have 26 strategies that we needed to choose from. The city decided to choose six out of those. 00:12:20
Strategies to focus on and the strategies you have to have actions associated with each strategy in addition to task. 00:12:29
That you need to comply with and report on. So every year you have to report on. Last year was first year reporting on that. 00:12:37
We did approve the revision to the Moderate Income Housing Plan in February of 23. 00:12:45
And the reporting. 00:12:53
Was due August 1st. 00:12:56
And it was very challenging. 00:12:59
Because we could only report on. 00:13:02
Actions that were completed. 00:13:06
From the date that your plan was approved. 00:13:09
Which was February, so we. 00:13:14
Six months to report on action, so we didn't have that much to to report on and one of them was Strategy E, which is to create an 00:13:17
associated with ADUS so. 00:13:23
I don't know if that if you have any other questions. No, we did memory serves going back to this. 00:13:30
We did make some kind of modification to. 00:13:37
Attached dwelling units did we not, did we not approve some kind of something that changed and loosened the? 00:13:40
Requirements around Adus or am I dreaming right up in my head? Yes, we did. But that was that was outside of this. That was 00:13:48
required anyway. Basically the legislature just said. 00:13:52
I don't care what your ordinances say internally to use are allowed. OK, so that one was that one was the state saying do this. 00:13:58
And our initial 80 ordinance was created, so adding the text in 2021. So we looked at you know internal Adus, but then also by 00:14:08
external ADUS. The state does allow more regulation around external Adus because they do realize that's a unit that's outside of a 00:14:16
main structure. So cities should have some say over set back or. 00:14:24
Windows, doors, other things. Those can be more regulated. Lot size, another thing. 00:14:33
So. 00:14:40
That's where those regulations for the external AD use originated from. 00:14:41
We were given 26 options. 00:14:47
And we adopted 66, yes. So if you, if you were to go back and look at those. 00:14:49
With a city like holiday in which I would describe as mature and near build out. 00:14:56
You couldn't have adopted any of the other 20. 00:15:02
I mean, I have to go back and look at all of them and review them. But my recollection is if you are a city that had no vacant 00:15:06
land, your ability to adopt those was very, very limited. 00:15:11
And you were basically here's your option internally externally to use accessory buildings, smaller lot sizes on redevelopment. I 00:15:17
mean those are your strategies that you. 00:15:21
You were pretty much funneled into. These are your options. 00:15:27
Pick any color you want, as long as it's black and what are the penalties. 00:15:30
If we don't, the penalties. 00:15:34
There I think they get my recollection is I should have looked at them for this, but they there's access to the Olean Walker 00:15:39
Moderate Income Housing Fund or Low Income Housing Fund that gets and there's also some transportation dollars that get come off 00:15:45
the table and they get increasingly more punitive. 00:15:52
The further out you go from compliance, from the reporting requirements and all those things memory serves, it was like you had to 00:15:59
have four or five to just not get in trouble. And then if you've got six, it was like there's the bonus money, right, right 00:16:03
strategies if you report on them. 00:16:08
On five strategies, then you are allowed to apply for the. 00:16:14
Transportation dollars, if you don't have anything and you don't have a plan or a report that is in compliance, there's some fees 00:16:19
associated with that. Yeah, there was some actual dollars that had to be paid out if you weren't in compliance with the 00:16:25
requirement by. 00:16:31
I can't. What was it? It was it may, I think or something like that. Well, after reporting you're given like 90 days to get in 00:16:38
compliance if you're not. So yeah, so there was, yeah, but it was a per day fine if you were out of compliance. And again it there 00:16:44
were four requirements. You had to be a city of a certain size population wise before they triggered those penalties. So tiny town 00:16:50
Utah didn't get. 00:16:56
Eaten away when they have a $12,000 budget and they just had to pay $10,000. 00:17:03
In fees and fines to the Department of Workforce Services. 00:17:09
I have a question. 00:17:13
Self report there's a table that talks about. 00:17:16
Application are those active applications right now that the staff is looking at for internal use, external use? 00:17:21
So do you have any sense? 00:17:29
Yeah, this doesn't seem like very high numbers. So, so. 00:17:32
My question is do we have any sense of if this ordinance changes, how much demand there is, is there going to be something 300 00:17:38
people who want to build Navy, you think it will be instead of eight, there will be 15 like do we, do we have any sense of of how 00:17:44
many people might be interested in this when it changes? 00:17:49
Conversations I've had with people that kind of intensity we have open counter time. People come in and say, you know, I want to 00:17:55
build. 00:17:58
Detached garage and I want to put a dwelling unit above it, one bedroom or studio. I want to have something above my garage 00:18:03
because I'm already building a detached garage. 00:18:08
Typically those are on lots that are smaller than half an acre and we repeated or regularly have to tell people that you can't do 00:18:14
a dwelling unit, you can build it. 00:18:19
It can be bonus space, but it can't actually count as a dwelling unit. 00:18:25
So, so you think it'll it'll go up, it would probably be similar to what we're seeing with internal Adus. It's not going to be 00:18:33
huge when you think of you as a property owner it it takes somebody who actually wants to have that use on their property, right? 00:18:41
If that's something that you want to have on your property and you have the capital to build it. 00:18:52
And then we'd see a permit for it. 00:18:58
Do we have any other questions for? 00:19:01
And she's standing at the front end, just eagerly awaiting. 00:19:03
Is there a separate, I like that, I love that chart. It was great to see it. But that's kind of a proxy for modern income housing, 00:19:07
not necessarily you could have. 00:19:12
A rent on a for $3000 on one and therefore it didn't create any moderate income housing. 00:19:18
You have other things happening with apartments being built and with Holiday Hills. Is that also not contributing to our 00:19:26
commitment to have moderate income housing? 00:19:31
Those units are are contributing because we're looking at total unit count, is that right, Anne? 00:19:38
When we're looking at moderate income housing goals, the units that are going to be coming online with Holiday Hills 100. 00:19:45
Yeah, Yeah. We're looking at 100 units. 00:19:54
What is our metric that says we're we're down tinkering with the zoning because we are meeting the dollar? 00:20:01
Umm, typically it's an ongoing process. You're always going to have applications for rezoning. 00:20:10
That's going to be a continual, especially as a community that's built out, what areas are going to transition into higher uses? 00:20:17
And that's pretty standard across all cities and there's a progress report annually. So you you can't. 00:20:26
Just stop progress. You have to be able to show that you. 00:20:35
Moving forward and providing some form of affordability for our residents in whatever capacity, is there a definition for 00:20:40
moderate? Because it feels like moderate income and holiday would actually be a different definition than moderate income in Rose 00:20:47
Park. So is it relative to the average housing price? How's that measured? Yes, it is. There is. 00:20:54
See here. Good question because it's based off of. 00:21:02
The media enter the area, so it's some percentage of median income that it would say people would allocate to housing. So you look 00:21:07
at that, the area median income of Salt Lake County and that's what we use. So that median income is $106,000. 00:21:15
And then so then you're looking at 80% and below which is considered moderate 850 to 80% of your salary. Of that 108,000 that's 00:21:24
going to be your bracket, 80% would still be considered moderate income housing. So it's not necessarily that we're looking to 00:21:32
solve affordable housing goods that meeting the the moderate housing goal. You know there's that's considered a full but something 00:21:41
that. 00:21:49
Matches with the. 00:21:57
Typical salary that you'd see in an area, got it. So that's. So I mean that's $50,000 a year. 00:22:00
50 to $60,000 a year, 1200 bucks a month is what we're talking about for and you're looking at. 00:22:08
The rent range 1074 to 1716. 00:22:16
Yeah. And that's another new construction, Yeah. And that's going to be filling in that area. When you think of like, OK, what if 00:22:21
I were looking for a rental and holiday that's between 1000 to 1500 a month. It's going to be like a one bedroom apartment or a 00:22:27
basement apartment. 00:22:34
Or possibly an Adu. It's not necessarily going to be a guest house that somebody's building on half an acre property. It's. 00:22:41
More typically going to be something that somebody's either built a kind of attached unit that's more separated to their main 00:22:49
house or. 00:22:54
Converted a. 00:23:00
Detached garage that they don't need something like that, you know it's how are you? 00:23:02
Yeah, it's typical. Rents are usually you're based in apartments and smaller units. 00:23:09
Question I have, if I may on this. 00:23:14
If this, the text amendment gets approved to understand the intent is to allow pretty much everyone anywhere in the city to create 00:23:17
these EADUS with defined parameters around them. But does that also open the door for new development to come in and say, oh look, 00:23:24
I can put in an entire row of houses on these tiny lots and there's just enough room that I can put a bunch of rental garages 00:23:31
behind each one of them. And now all of a sudden we have 80 houses where? 00:23:39
40 we're. 00:23:46
I mean when if you have a. 00:23:49
Company that buys 1020 lots at holidays, land prices and builds tiny houses on all of them. 00:23:53
Is that actually going to happen? I mean, is it likely, right? I get that, but I'm just going to understand how this could impact 00:24:04
future development. Or I mean, it could also be that somebody who buys a house and it's maybe their first house that they buy, 00:24:11
they can stay there longer because now they can build. 00:24:17
Accessory unit or it makes it affordable for somebody to buy a house because they can have a basement that they can rent out. 00:24:23
That's a pretty standard thing when you're just starting out. It's oh, I I don't have any kids yet. I'm going to buy a house and 00:24:31
then I can rent out the basement. So being able to have some sort of the dwelling unit that you can add to your property, either 00:24:39
converting something internally or as your family grows that you can now build an external unit and maintain that. 00:24:47
Kind of rental. 00:24:55
Yeah, I have a question and a comment. Question is. 00:24:58
Do we really have a choice? 00:25:03
You you do have a choice and it's but it's the pressure I think increases as we as we go along because if you you can. 00:25:08
Even if you make changes, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's you're going to have applications. In this case, I can tell you 00:25:18
that if you made the change tonight to remove that half acre lot size minimum, you'd have two applications right away. 00:25:26
Those two are .47 and .48 acres. 00:25:35
They can't do any of you. One of those I know is on a corner lot, so their access for the Adu is on one St. their houses on the 00:25:38
other street. 00:25:41
And so the decisions that we make now are not so concerning to me. You know, that's two more. 00:25:46
But what does concern me is, as Dennis said, it's what does this look like into the future and I think. 00:25:55
One of the things that we need to safeguard is what we all love about holiday. 00:26:03
And I don't think that what you're. 00:26:10
Suggesting here is so outlandish. 00:26:13
I think that it is entirely possible that somebody could buy up some land and build some small homes and say, oh, I've got a 00:26:16
little bit of space in the back. I'm going to build 10 little Adus in the back as well because I'm not going to violate any 00:26:22
ordinances if I do that and. 00:26:28
I've seen this happen in communities in California where every square inch of dirt gets built on and there's no place to park and 00:26:35
everybody's parking on the street and and it just happens over time. 00:26:42
And what we love about our. 00:26:50
He wrote, and it erodes. 00:26:54
And so while we sit here tonight and we say, well, this doesn't seem so bad, you know, it's eight now and it's. 00:26:57
Five next year it might be 3 the year after that, and that doesn't seem so bad and before we know it. 00:27:04
We've paved paradise. 00:27:11
You know, and and that's what concerns me about this, this whole thing and that's why I asked about penalties and. 00:27:14
Whether we have options and so forth, so that's what I want us to consider. 00:27:21
Two other comments. 00:27:29
One is the timing. We're we're way ahead of the curve. I just went on unincorporated counties website, you're doing a survey to 00:27:32
see what they should do for external ADUS. 00:27:37
They're not in any hurry. They say right in their plan that they don't have the plan ready in 2025. 00:27:42
They're just doing the survey. Invited me to take the survey because apparently they can't tell whether you live in their 00:27:48
catchment area and then we only. 00:27:53
The ordinance itself was done in 2021, which is 2 years ago. 00:27:58
We've only actually. 00:28:04
Last year did something that's been less than a year and we're ready to change the ordinance again mainly driven I think because 00:28:05
of. 00:28:09
Two particular people. 00:28:13
And that I don't know why we're in a rush to change the ordinance. I do agree with one gentleman who wrote in it said why are we 00:28:16
in such a hurry? 00:28:20
To declare that it's not working and we need to do the next thing. Will be one of the very first cities to do this. I don't know 00:28:26
why we need to be the first city to do this. 00:28:30
There'll be a day when the legislature makes this do it, but right now, if we do this, my belief is that. 00:28:37
The development community will use holiday as leverage to tell a little holiday can do it, Anyone can do it. 00:28:45
And with that, I'm just going to pause real quick on the questions. We're at 603 and I'm just going to go ahead and close the work 00:28:53
meeting and then open the official meeting unless there's any reason not to. And I, since we don't have any members of the public 00:28:59
here, we'll go ahead and nominate the opening statement that we read and then we can continue the discussion. 00:29:06
So just for the record check mark. 00:29:13
But good, good comments and I guess just kind of along those same lines. 00:29:17
Before we go on with any further questions around the current text amendment, since the point has been brought up about just 00:29:22
concerns. 00:29:25
Of the intent and the scope of it thus far, some of our other commissioners gone, Baron Vilchinski, do you have similar thoughts 00:29:29
or concerns around that or opposing thoughts or concerns around that before we further the discussions? 00:29:35
I do observe the same thought. We put it very well, and in looking over there, they immediately thought. 00:29:43
So when it resulting application that we have. 00:29:51
And the amount of public that came out for that and your concerns? 00:29:56
And why they were OPP. 00:30:01
And so it concerns me changing the text or recommending changing the text and allowing. 00:30:04
For that same scenario to happen, knowing that we've had. 00:30:13
Citizens come forward and. 00:30:18
Opposed. 00:30:21
I don't feel like we can necessarily ignore. 00:30:23
OK, good comments, Commissioner, Baron or Commissioner gone? 00:30:29
Well, I just listening to all this, I wasn't a part of the previous discussion, so I appreciate the update. 00:30:32
Your input. 00:30:39
Have we had a lot of problems with this? 00:30:42
Obviously there's a couple of examples, but if somebody were to come in and get a building permit for an accessory building? 00:30:45
Garage storage that whatever you want as long as they met the. 00:30:53
Lot coverage, setbacks, building separation. We would issue a building permit, right? Yes. So we would issue a building permit for 00:30:59
an accessory building. 00:31:03
So is the concern that people might be living there at some point in time? 00:31:08
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I'm trying to figure out also what what we're envisioning is going to happen with 00:31:14
this. 00:31:17
And I don't have the history that you do. So I apologize if I'm stepping on a base toes and I don't mean to, but. 00:31:23
I think by the nature of the fact that the ordinance creates setbacks and additional things. 00:31:30
For these type of units doesn. 00:31:37
To some degree, mitigate the. 00:31:40
Right. 00:31:42
And that's that is the intention of. 00:31:44
Well, we can already build accessory buildings. If it's going to be a dwelling unit, how do you offset the impacts of that? 00:31:48
Considering. 00:31:56
The impacts of an internal accessory dwelling unit versus a external. Your parking is going to be the same. If you have a dwelling 00:31:58
unit that you're adding on to a house, you're adding one to two cars for that accessory dwelling unit, whether it's inside of a 00:32:05
house or outside of a house. So parking, long unit, accessory interior, exterior, they can only have one accessory dwelling unit 00:32:12
on the property. They can't have a basement unit and an external unit. 00:32:20
So it's limited to 1 accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:27
When you're with so the parking that's largely addressed, you're going to have that impact either way because we already allow an 00:32:32
internal accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:36
The impact is that you're having a dwelling unit that's closer to property lines and how is that then regulated and I think that. 00:32:42
What we discussed when we were looking at that R2 zone, so in R. 00:32:54
By creating smaller bots. 00:32:58
You're setting your property or your building further away from your property lines, so that's and I think that's sometimes missed 00:33:01
with the public. They just see it as density increasing. We're adding more units that aren't there currently, even though you have 00:33:07
a .4 acre lot. 00:33:13
An R2 zone would have allowed them to put another unit or two units on there. So now without having the R2 zone and they can't 00:33:20
subdivide, people are looking at accessory units. If you're building an accessory unit as a homeowner, you're going to locate it 00:33:26
further away. 00:33:32
So you get smaller setbacks with accessory units, so as a trade off. 00:33:39
Argue is there any logic in just making any type of accessory dwelling unit? 00:33:44
Have the same setbacks as the primary. 00:33:51
There are cities that do that. I think that Cottonwood Heights has that. That's pretty common. 00:33:54
So I mean, there's no advantage then? 00:34:00
The Accessory Dwelling. 00:34:04
And you keep within the setbacks of the building envelope. 00:34:05
Right. So does that make sense to everybody or so then you might have like I think our smallest rear yard setback is 25 feet. 00:34:11
So if you were going to do an external accessory dwelling unit, you'd have to have it be. 00:34:22
25 feet in and then whatever your side set back is, and that might be 5 feet, 8 feet. 00:34:28
And this makes it much smaller because this matches in the accessory building, which can be quite close, right? Right. 00:34:35
In addition to that, doesn't it also allow for the conversion of existing accessory buildings, which even if they're legal non 00:34:42
conforming, they can still be modified under this ordinance? 00:34:47
Right, the proposal, right. So if you have a shed in the back that you can't build today, but was built legally 20 years ago, you 00:34:52
can convert that to an accessory dwelling unit and even add a story onto it if you wanted to. 00:34:58
Right, but you just couldn't have windows opening on exterior side of adding windows. And if you're adding. 00:35:05
The text includes, if you're adding a second level onto it. One, you're still going to have to meet a graduated height 00:35:13
requirement. So if your building is really close to the property line, if it's existing and you're adding a second level. 00:35:19
Our graduated heights is like a 45° angle over from 8 feet up, so you go 8 feet up on the property line. 00:35:27
And at 45° over and your building can't be in or, it can't be outside of that 45° angle, so you're 80. You wouldn't be looking 00:35:34
over your neighbors right then. And so that's. We run into that With detached garages, it can't. 00:35:40
People want them to be super close, but a lot of times if they're going above a certain height, they have to back them away 00:35:48
anyway. So if you're going to a full 20 foot height, you probably have to back that away even further. 00:35:55
And then the second story window you can have any windows on. 00:36:03
On the property sides, just a slanted room you can have. You can have a clear story window that's six feet above so that you're 00:36:09
not having. If you have a second level or you have an accessory unit, you're not having windows that people can look out of on 00:36:15
neighboring property sites. 00:36:20
So what's the advantage to doing this? I mean if you got an existing, existing, existing unit? 00:36:33
I mean, I can understand why people would be concerned too then. 00:36:41
You know this to me doesn. 00:36:46
Makes sense that we're going to go ahead and promote people who have done something that. 00:36:47
Allowed the accessory building to be at 3 feet or five feet, whatever it is, and now we're going to go ahead and build. 00:36:53
Of actual dwelling unit there to me. 00:36:59
I worry about this existing stuff. 00:37:03
That was the concern as well is if we're looking at external external dwelling units, staff preference is to just have it meet the 00:37:06
standards from the beginning if you have an existing building. 00:37:13
That is already there. 00:37:21
Maybe you can't have any dwelling space in that, that you can add on to it and put dwelling space outside of that that needs the 00:37:23
standards. I mean, what you're suggesting to me meets. 00:37:28
Intent of the goal that the legislature's provided us. So I don't think we're, I think we're protecting the neighborhood, but also 00:37:34
meeting. 00:37:38
Expectation of the. 00:37:43
So in my mind that's where I would like to see this. 00:37:46
Because I think, and unfortunately too many things are existing. 00:37:50
And may not be legal at some point in. 00:37:54
And when you have non conforming in these kind of statements you all of a sudden things get really they can become very difficult 00:37:56
to. 00:38:01
Regulate. 00:38:06
I mean, just to give an example, I have a greenhouse in my backyard, right? And it's probably. 00:38:08
10 feet from the property line at the back and it's a big greenhouse I built in the I don't know, it's an aluminum frame, but the 00:38:14
footprint is there and it's an accessory building, right? And probably non conforming. I don't know. It's a mess, but. 00:38:22
I could if this were to pass as it's currently written because and find you I'm on 1/4 acre lot. This is not a big lot, right? 00:38:31
This is a small lot with a small split level home on it. 00:38:36
But if this. 00:38:43
Theoretically, and I go through, you know, the building permit process. 00:38:45
I could go in and I could put a two-story building in my backyard. As long as the windows don't face the neighbors and it's not 00:38:49
taller than my existing house, I now have a two-story home right behind my home. 00:38:56
That I can do as rental income or whatever. 00:39:03
I want it because it's a dwelling unit, right? And that depends on the set back. So if you're adding a second level on, it still 00:39:06
would have to meet the graduated height and if your existing footprint is. 00:39:12
Close to the property line, then you wouldn't be able to add a second. Well, I got 10 feet. I got, I got at least 10 feet. So I 00:39:18
got a good buffer. I'll meet that 45, no problem. But you run into that with any accessories unit. So it's just been adding the 00:39:24
dwelling unit portion. And we have people who call about their neighbors building a detached garage there. I guess too close to 00:39:30
the property line, it's too tall, but. 00:39:37
It's perfectly legal. 00:39:44
So they're meeting all the standards of graduated height. They're meeting the standards of. 00:39:46
Building heights setbacks. 00:39:50
That's all within those standards, but people don't like even just a detached accessory building. 00:39:53
That's large. 00:40:00
So I think the the concern I might be just echoing which is everybody, well most of the Commissioners on here voice which is. 00:40:02
We're opening this Pandora's box, so to speak, and I can already tell you that a third of my neighbors would be very unhappy if I 00:40:12
replaced my dilapidated greenhouse with A2 story rental home. 00:40:18
Right. And so I'm, I'm wondering because I do understand the intent of what we're trying to do and I'm not trying to stop new 00:40:25
housing like we've got to accommodate like there's going to be 3,000,000 more people living in the Wasatch Front over the next 25 00:40:30
years. 00:40:35
At our current growth rate, right. I'm not saying they'll have to live in holiday, but we should accommodate some of it, right, 00:40:40
and not just take the knot in my backyard approach. So with that being said, what? 00:40:45
With the planning commissioners feels an appropriate amendment to what's been presented. 00:40:51
I'm not as concerned about the half, eight, less than half acre people that had their, you know, dwelling units that wanted to 00:41:29
build next door. But the guy that literally bought a house with a mother-in-law apartment, but because it didn't open in his home, 00:41:35
it opened on the side of his home, He couldn't use it as a dwelling unit. In my mind that's like. 00:41:41
Making somehow that to be legal. 00:41:48
Seems to make sense or you know, comply with the city ordinance. So I think whatever text amendment allows for that to be OK, 00:41:51
maybe not so much the neighbors with the .4 acre lot. 00:41:57
But that's just me chiming in on that. So with that I'll kind of turn it back over to the Planning Commission to I have 00:42:03
Commissioner Ruth, I had a quick option as we're talking about the second level. I mean an option could be that you could allow 00:42:09
single level accessory falling units. 00:42:16
If within that closer set back, if you wanted to add a second level, it would have to meet the. 00:42:23
Setbacks required for a main structure. 00:42:30
I think there's a a difference between. 00:42:35
Building a separate structure and the neighbors go crazy because there's a separate garage being built. 00:42:39
And building a separate structure that somebody's actually going to. 00:42:46
And I think that's where people go, whoa, there's going to be neighbors right there. 00:42:50
I. 00:42:58
And I feel. 00:43:01
This group that this is an issue that. 00:43:04
Might require that we continue the discussion. 00:43:08
I don't feel that we have enough information. It just seems to me that we're evaluating this in a vacuum. 00:43:13
We don't know what the alternatives are. I understand that. 00:43:21
That we have an issue here. We have a problem and we've got a problem that is probably going to have to be addressed. 00:43:25
By this. 00:43:33
And I think this is 1. 00:43:37
Possible. 00:43:40
I think there might be other solutions but. 00:43:42
Should come before this Comm. 00:43:45
I don't know that, but I think that's a possibility. 00:43:48
I I just feel like we're looking at this in a vacuum. 00:43:52
And it just doesn't feel right to me at this time. It doesn't feel like we have enough information. 00:43:55
OK. Appreciate that. 00:44:03
Commission Commissioner. Gonna, yeah. 00:44:07
I I really like the idea of eight years. I think it keeps things, it increases density, which obviously we must do. 00:44:11
While keeping things residential, I would much rather live in an Edu or a house with an Adu than I would a box Cond. 00:44:20
100. 00:44:28
I think it's. I think it keeps it feeling like holiday without without building up, but it does increase density my my memory of. 00:44:30
So my questions are, how will the neighbors interact? 00:44:43
So I think I the suggestion about keeping them lower. 00:44:50
I I'm really interested in that. 00:44:54
I don't yet have clarity about. 00:44:59
In my mind about because I like the idea of consistent converting an existing structure, I think that makes it accessible for 00:45:01
people who may not otherwise be able to do it. 00:45:07
And I think part of the modern income housing as well, who are they renting to? It's a smaller thing. But also as we mentioned, 00:45:13
the people who can afford to live in the Holiday House are now people who have another income stream. I think that's. 00:45:19
A good idea? So so making it easier for people to convert things. I think that's a good idea, but I'm not quite sure of all of 00:45:27
the. 00:45:30
Implications of that, but I I think ideas are a good idea and I like them much better than. 00:45:35
Building a giant holiday hills and I like it a lot more So. So my questions are how? How will we make it feel like it's not so 00:45:42
close, but still. 00:45:48
Let people convert existing things. I think another question I had. 00:45:53
The big thing with Butternut 50 neighbors showed up and they said we all hate the traffic. 00:45:58
I don't know. I think 30 years in the future there are going to be twice as many cars in the Valley. 00:46:03
Or people can drive less. I just think that's a change that will happen in the Valley and I don't know how to. I don't know what 00:46:10
that will look like in the interim because. 00:46:15
Parking will be harder, traffic will increase and I and I don't know how to address that because of course there will be more 00:46:21
cars, there will be more people. 00:46:25
But but everyone hates it, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to balance that because realistically. 00:46:32
Just it will get harder to drive. Hopefully it will get easier to take public transit, but but what will that look like in the 00:46:41
holiday? Holiday will be on the trailing end of that because we're not very dense. 00:46:46
Anyway, so that so those are my thoughts I don't know how to address people's concerns about. 00:46:52
Parking. 00:46:57
Accepting that very long term way in 30 and 40 years. 00:47:00
I hope you are driving. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not sure what that looks like because that's not a convincing thing 00:47:05
right now. I don't want a bunch of people parking on my Rd. 00:47:09
But, but how do we move towards that? I don't know. And I think it's an awkward interim stage we're in right now. Yeah, I've got 00:47:14
got transportation piece and leveraging, you know, our transportation lines. We have a bus route that goes from Central station, 00:47:22
Frontrunner of 45th, it goes across Highland Drive and then goes up through the village and then up 45th South and goes to the 00:47:30
park and ride. I think getting to EU from on the bus, taking the bus takes 2530 minutes. 00:47:38
Which is pretty reasonable. I live in Bountiful and I took the bus when I was going to you and it was faster to take the bus 00:47:47
rather than. 00:47:51
Rather than driving and paying for parking and dealing with all of that. So there might be some people, especially on our bus 00:47:56
lines, if there's an accessory unit that's close to that, people would think, yeah, I'm going to live in a successory unit. It's 00:48:03
small. I'm a student. I can afford to live in this backyard unit or in a basement unit. 00:48:09
And I can walk to the bus. 00:48:17
Maybe that reduces I don't have to have a car. That was same situation when I was in school. We only had one car, so I took the 00:48:19
bus, went to school, we had one car. 00:48:24
So it's it's a feasible thing for families, young couples. 00:48:29
Roommate situations. They might have just one car between them that they use for getting around and then taking the bus. So that 00:48:35
smaller unit does does limit sometimes. 00:48:41
Cars and people who are looking for rentals, they're going to look at parking or say, oh, I have two cars. Your Adu here only has 00:48:48
one parking spot, so I can't rent this because I can't park here. 00:48:54
You might have some people. You might have some people who are like, well, I have two cars and. 00:49:01
Venom grew lying on street parking, which then I have to move my car every 24 hours. That might not be something that they want to 00:49:08
do anyway. 00:49:11
So, so I mean just based on my experience and I've only been here for seven months, but that was a really big sticking point for 00:49:15
people. I'm reluctant to plan around that. I'm reluctant to say this is the sticking point, so let's. 00:49:23
Let's not do it, but it, but it does seem like a big. 00:49:32
Simple and just to clarify, Commissioner Gong, so your your primary concerns are kind of along the height restriction and the 00:49:37
parking requirement? 00:49:41
Or making sure there are height restrictions. I should say I I my my primary concerns are. 00:49:47
Yeah, How do you, how do you maintain a sense of privacy if we're allowing people to get much closer to the fence, which I think 00:49:53
we should, so that people can convert existing things? 00:49:58
One answer that is keep them low so that they're not wearing every background. I think that might be. 00:50:04
I appreciate and respect what you're saying, Commissioner. Gone. However, I purchased the home that I purchased here in. 00:50:09
Because of it has a large block or I'm just over 1/2 acre? 00:50:17
And we liked the outdoor living space that we have. 00:50:22
That currently my home is surrounded where my lot is. 00:50:26
Is kind of back in a cul-de-sac area and I am surrounded. I've got 8 doctors and neighbors. 00:50:30
They've got eight different backyards it. 00:50:37
Are around the. 00:50:41
And accessory dwelling in it. So all of my neighbors have detached garages. 00:50:43
And they're all within 3 feet of my property. 00:50:50
My the one of my neighbors has 2 accessories building units right now. 00:50:55
Dwelling units or just accessory buildings? 00:51:01
Accessory and building. 00:51:07
And I am going to tell you right now that it's going to change my whole home. 00:51:10
If they turn those into dwelling units and are allowed to that close to my property line my neighbor to the South of me has, it's 00:51:17
not even a foot away from my house. 00:51:22
Well, that's reason that he has sounds illegal. It's not even a threat. Obey from my home. 00:51:30
So you get that many neighbors that all have these accessory buildings. 00:51:36
And they're putting dwelling in it. Then I always said him and living in the middle of. 00:51:41
An apartment complex. I have neighbors surrounding me. 00:51:48
It changes the whole landscape, it changes. 00:51:53
And so there's got to be something that we can do. Like I said, I respect and appreciate what you said as far as. 00:51:57
Existing buildings, people should be able to convert those, be able to use their property. I respect that. 00:52:05
But we need to do it in a way. 00:52:12
You know, I bought my home for a reason and it was because of that privacy, because of the backyard that I have. 00:52:15
And to have that stripped away like that. 00:52:21
I'm not so willing to let that go and just to clarify this, Commissioner. 00:52:26
The eight properties you have surrounding your backyard, just out of curiosity, are they all quarter or half acre lots as well or 00:52:32
or do you have an idea or those smaller like R1 lots? 00:52:37
OK. 00:52:43
The two right next door to me are larger lots, but the ones in the back, they're smaller lots. 00:52:44
Gotcha. Yeah. And that makes that makes a lot of sense to me. So I think this is a big concern. 00:52:51
How do how might we allow this without all of a sudden be like AH? 00:52:55
Yeah, yeah. 00:53:01
So then and just to kind of clarify on your sticking point. 00:53:02
Like a lot size restriction where if it was just potentially the two to the sides of you and not so much the the row of tiny ones 00:53:07
behind you, obviously, I don't think your eight neighbors at any course of time are all going to want to build rental homes. But 00:53:13
you never know, right? I mean maybe maybe the ones running the tanning booth and salon want some extra income or whatever, but. 00:53:20
Internal flowing units in these properties. 00:53:31
That two of my backyard universities renters downstairs and upstairs. 00:53:35
And so if they're allowed to then turn the garage. 00:53:40
They can only have one, so they have to get rid of. Yeah. You can't do both, yeah. 00:53:46
I mean, then you've got this whole I know I'm surrounded now. That being said, I do want to ask this just because it came up to my 00:53:50
mind. 00:53:54
An internal Adu. 00:53:59
Could they build that as bonus space as an external Adu and then say, well, we're not using our internal dwelling unit as a 00:54:01
dwelling unit, that's just bonus space now and our external is the the the dwelling unit. Can they can they do that technically 00:54:07
they can change their internal units so that it's part of the main dwelling and then just have their one accessory unit be the 00:54:13
external one? 00:54:19
And then the suddenly noncompliant when they start renting out the basement to their nephew or whatever, right? Doesn't this 00:54:27
suggest that really we have much more moderate income housing in the city than we're giving ourselves credit for? 00:54:34
Because we're only recognizing the ones that we've legitimized or are formalized. But I think it's true that we, as in most 00:54:40
cities, you have lots of inform. 00:54:46
Modern income, that doesn't mean any local codes, right? I mean, we, we do have probably a significant number of people who are 00:54:52
renting out basements without an Adu license. So if they don't get an Adu license, we don't know that they're renting out their 00:54:58
basement. There's no way to know that we. 00:55:05
Enforce enforce enforcement and licensing. Then our numbers would go up and our problem solved. Maybe, I know. 00:55:13
You still have the issue of OK as a property. 00:55:23
Maybe I don't want an internal unit. Maybe I want something that's a little bit more private. Maybe I have a larger family that's 00:55:27
taking up space and in my house now I want to build a one bedroom unit for. 00:55:33
A college student or for a single professional, and I totally get that. I would love to be able to do that. You can do that. 00:55:40
I just feel like there needs to be. 00:55:50
A minimum size I feel like by letting people do it. 00:55:56
Yeah. So we do have a maximum accessory building footprint. You could alter that to be even smaller for an external Edu. 00:56:00
And right now it's it scales based off of the property size. 00:56:10
I think it starts at 707. Fifty square feet. Did you remember 750? I thought it was an 800. 00:56:17
That's like a percent of the lot size or something, isn't it? 00:56:24
Generally you're also going to have your structures are going to be regulated by your lot coverage, so. 00:56:28
Structures can only cover a percentage of your property, so even with our conditional use permits. 00:56:36
You still can't go over the the lock coverage or a structure. Let me pull up those two tables for you to look at. 00:56:44
So if you were. 00:57:04
This is best set back distance for main structures, so if you wanted to limit. 00:57:06
Two Storey Adu or external Adu at all to be within the main footprint or area buildable area for a main structure this is what 00:57:13
you'd be looking at. For a smaller size property or 1/4 acre property, R110 zone at 20 feet or a rear property set back. 00:57:23
Of your career. 00:57:34
And then your sides are dependent on the arcing side. So that's that's the step back you would have if you wanted to limit 00:57:38
external dwelling units to be only allowed within the the building footprint of. 00:57:44
The main structure is there. A minimum set back between the main structure and the potential EAUD building code is 5 feet. It's 00:57:52
either 5 feet. So you basically could build a house and then build another house right behind it, just a little bit smaller. 00:58:00
Could you build a house in front of your house? Is there anything that says you can't build this in your friend or guess you have 00:58:08
to. Front yard setbacks are controlled by what is already existing on the street. 00:58:13
So when property owners come in and want to add on to the house, a lot of times it's very hard for them to add on to the front at 00:58:18
all, because they have to average the setbacks for all their neighboring properties on the same side of the street. So they take 00:58:24
two houses on one side, 2 houses on the other side. 00:58:30
Closest and furthest point for each of those properties, and that's their average set back that determines their set back for the 00:58:37
front yard. 00:58:40
So it's there's it's more variable. Most cities will just have a standard 25 foot front yard set back. Ours we do averaging. 00:58:45
Where you can come closer and then you have to go further back. As long as you're meeting that average, that's interesting. 00:58:55
I'm going to lot coverage. 00:59:02
This is the percent coverage of all structures, so on a lot less than 10,000 square feet. 00:59:06
Your structures can only cover 35%. 00:59:14
So if you have a very large house on. 00:59:17
Quarter acre property, you're limited on how much area you can cover A. 00:59:21
Let me give you an example here. Now that doesn't include any of the the cement hardscape associated with the house. That is just. 00:59:28
Structures, roof structure, right? 00:59:38
Yeah. So on 1/4 acre property. 00:59:41
That is not that. 00:59:46
Not that either. 00:59:54
I do this all the time. They get I can't do it. 00:59:58
It's because we're watching here. 01:00:02
Would be 3500 square feet on a 10,000 lot, right? 01:00:05
Thank you. You're welcome so. 01:00:09
So if you have a 2000 square foot Rambler, you're limited to additional 1500 for all of your accessory buildings. 01:00:13
15 hundreds of mansions. 01:00:21
Your rear yard is limited to. 01:00:25
25% so. 01:00:30
Cover more than 25% of your rear yard. 01:00:33
And then accessory buildings, these are your footprints. So on that quarter acre property, 850 square feet. 01:00:37
If they wanted to build a building with a footprint larger than that, they would have to seek a conditional use permit, so then 01:00:46
you would see that application. 01:00:51
So 850 square feet. 01:00:58
Generally is about the size. 01:01:01
Two-bedroom apartment. A small two-bedroom apartment. 01:01:03
My first house was 850. 01:01:08
That included the garage. 01:01:11
Yeah. 01:01:14
So the text. 01:01:15
Accessory dwelling unit so increases to five feet from 4 feet. 01:01:19
So the draft we have in front of us for the text amendment. 01:01:25
And I apologize for not knowing this, but is the language in there that it already requires all these same setbacks. So these 01:01:29
minimums you're showing us is the minimums regardless of the the lot size, Yes, So those are on. 01:01:36
Lines 4445. 01:01:46
46 and 47 and 47 is the one that you could alter if you wanted to limit it to a single level within a certain distance, and they 01:01:50
could only go up to 20 feet for an external dwelling unit if they increase that setbacks even further. 01:01:58
So you could increase another 25 or 30% or? 01:02:08
Twilight structure. 01:02:14
But. 01:02:18
This would if they're going to turn it into an accessory dwelling unit. They have an accessory building already existing on the 01:02:20
property, and they want to turn it into a dwelling unit. They wouldn't need to still comply with these standards, so that's when 01:02:27
the next section #8 comes in. 01:02:33
So the legal non conforming is the concern. 01:02:42
That you have is that people that have these garages right up in the corner of their property, right up next to three or four 01:02:45
neighbors back there that want to put in their tiny home, apartment, whatever on 1/4 acre lot. 01:02:52
They can do it as long as their roof doesn't allow windows that view the neighbors and even if we did a height restriction and 01:03:00
said single layer. 01:03:04
You still have a neighbor. 01:03:09
2 feet from your house. 01:03:12
Well enough that. 01:03:15
The fact that it's a non compliant, non conforming whatever or no legal. 01:03:17
Building that this can't be used to legitimize or legalize what they've done, in other words. 01:03:25
You know, the fact that it's there doesn't mean they can change it de facto into that, but if if we can write that in, that would 01:03:31
be a great improvement, right? And that was the position where City Council directed us to look at converting accessory buildings. 01:03:38
A discussion that could be had OK, here's why the Planning Commission. 01:03:47
Suggested this language because you have these non complying buildings and here's the problem. OK that. 01:03:53
And maybe a point of discussion on that she. 01:04:02
Are there any standards that you feel could offset the impacts from minor conversion converting? Are there any? 01:04:06
Additional standards that. 01:04:14
Or is it just? 01:04:17
Not comfortable at all with any converting of accessory building. I mean where would you put the, where would you put the changes 01:04:20
because they don't have any room on their property. The person impacted is the one that's going to have to put up a higher fence 01:04:25
or be allowed to have an 8 foot fence or. 01:04:30
Have to put landscaping and that burden shouldn't be on the person being impacted. 01:04:36
You could have those be standards that are. 01:04:42
With the applicant. So if you have a non conforming structure I think the standards on there are have all the same standards and 01:04:47
then adding no windows or doors. 01:04:53
So an accessory building may have a door on a property side, or they may have a window on an accessory or on a property side. So 01:05:00
do you want to require filling those? 01:05:05
And relocating those, I think that would be reasonable. The fire department says no, they got to have an exit. I have two exits 01:05:11
from the house, so you have to, you have to put a new exit on or a new or new window. 01:05:18
I mean, I have. 01:05:27
Legal non conforming shed large right up against the fence, like there's less than a foot between my fence of my neighbors and my 01:05:29
shed that was built before I purchased the property. 01:05:34
And if I wanted to convert that and just say, well, there's no doors and windows on your side, sorry, they have a drum set like, 01:05:41
you know, I could see where that'd be a little bit of a concern. I mean, is there a way to? 01:05:45
Say is there an altar to the language? We can say that your non conforming well not even necessarily non conforming structure, but 01:05:51
you could just say hey look existing structures that you want to convert to dwelling unit have to be. 01:05:58
Within certain setbacks and there is no non conforming allowance so that you can't add dwelling space within that structure, but 01:06:07
you could maybe add. 01:06:13
Some area onto that structure that would be compliant with. 01:06:20
External. I think as long as you write it so that city staff has the ability to mitigate all those things, I don't want them all 01:06:25
back here. 01:06:30
Right. Agree that that doesn't we just got rid of the hallmark. 01:06:35
That, that now, I don't want to start with every, every conversion that has to happen and that. So I think you have to, you know, 01:06:42
shut that down as much as you can up front and whatever discretion the city staff can have. 01:06:49
Including saying no, sometimes the answer is there is nothing that was sufficiently mitigate what you want to do. 01:06:57
OK, so even though the zone allows it, there's something else that's a non complying building is stopping it from happening. You 01:07:06
could tear it down, put it in the right spot and make it a dwelling. 01:07:11
Or I guess the other alternatives they have a. 01:07:17
Existing accessory building. 01:07:22
A foot too close, You know, if you're looking at these increases, so you need an additional foot, then you have to frame another 01:07:27
interior wall that's a foot in from that. So you're not adding the dwelling space within those required setbacks. 01:07:35
You're only adding dwelling space where it would be building a new building anyway, but you're still kind of using the existing, I 01:07:43
believe in giving staff some discretion to deal with those kinds of very minimal kinds of things. OK. I don't think it's those 01:07:50
that are going to be a problem. It's the one that's three feet off the line and that and now it's a house with people moving in 01:07:57
and out doing house activities, which is very different than it being used as a garage. 01:08:04
SO11 recent example that we had a permit for was a They built a interior enclosed pool which is within their set accessory 01:08:12
building set back and then right next to that they built a pool house. Their original plan had a bedroom and kitchen and bathroom 01:08:20
in that pool house. 01:08:28
Their stuff. They were. 01:08:37
Close enough on their set back that it met the standard for an accessory building, but did not meet the standard for an accessory 01:08:38
dwelling unit. So for that then we have to highlight and record something against the property that it can't be used as an 01:08:44
accessory dwelling unit. 01:08:49
So you have an accessory building that has space. Is it going to be used for living space? Are they if you have a bedroom that's 01:08:56
built there? 01:09:00
Is somebody going to be living there eventually? 01:09:05
Maybe then it becomes a code enforcement issue, which? 01:09:09
It's manageable. 01:09:14
But already people can build accessory buildings. They can build bonus spaces. They can build something. They can use those 01:09:16
spaces. They can have people that are occupying those spaces for recreational purposes. They could build a game room that is in 01:09:22
their existing garage. That's. 01:09:27
May have significant impacts as well. They could convert their garage to a music space where they are used because they don't want 01:09:34
to have their drum set in their house, so they're going to build their detached garage or convert to use their detached garage for 01:09:40
their drum and band practice. Pretty common. 01:09:46
So people are already using. 01:09:53
Some of these structures for an accessory, kind of. 01:09:56
Umm, I think what the standards you're just trying to offset if somebody were to be living there consistently, right. Well that's 01:10:01
the changing of the characteristic of the neighborhood that's impactful that goes to kind of I think that the highlighted point 01:10:07
almost unanimously across the group which is you know we're we're not opposed to the Adu, the EADU or trying to to check the box 01:10:14
to to make sure that we qualify for transit money. 01:10:20
Now that that's the only reason, but it's definitely the large incentive. 01:10:28
But it's that we want to make sure that whatever we put in here doesn't open up that door to where all of a sudden, now, you know, 01:10:33
neighbors have sudden houses popping up in between houses that are freaking them out and they're going, when did this happen? 01:10:40
Right. 01:10:48
Anybody disagree with that? 01:10:50
OK. 01:10:53
It's not just us. It will be our kids. And maybe they're cool with it. They're cool with a lot of things, but. 01:10:58
Back in 2021 when the Council. 01:11:05
The only significant change they made in the recommendation was to not allow it in all zones because it was recommended to be in 01:11:10
all zones initially, right. So it is, it is allowed in all zones. So that's where you see we have a set back for externally used. 01:11:18
But the amount of properties that are half an acre or larger in an R110 zone are? 01:11:26
You and far between and if you have a property that's a half acre in an R110 zone. 01:11:34
Was it more likely to subdivide it and just create 2 units anyway? Was it the survey that got them to change it? Because the 01:11:40
surveys pretty clear that nobody wanted it in all zones. No, it was. 01:11:46
I think you. 01:11:54
The survey was not. 01:11:56
Let me spell down to that, the other thing I wanted to clarify on what was in the packet and I was just curious on this, is it 01:12:00
kind of show the the progression of like you know, oh, I had my family, now I'm retired and I have my little cane, you know, 01:12:08
infographic and I moved into the EA, UV and now some other family I'm renting to. So I'm just curious, can the owner occupant live 01:12:16
in their accessory unit and then rent out the main structure and that allows people to stay on their property and maybe have. 01:12:24
A caretaker with their family. 01:12:32
House while they live in the accessory unit. 01:12:34
They could build an accessory unit that needs accessibility challenges if their main home doesn't. 01:12:37
Allow them. If they have mobility challenges, maybe they want something that's. 01:12:44
Single level they can build that in the. 01:12:48
And then rent a so that it retains that privacy. I think that's a major hurdle. If you think about your own use as well, do you do 01:12:51
I want to convert 2 units or two bedrooms in my basement? There's. 01:12:58
There's a privacy trade off that you have there that some people would rather move it a little bit further away and have some more 01:13:06
privacy for a much smaller unit. You know you don't want and maybe you don't want to have a family of six living in your accessory 01:13:11
dwelling unit either. It's likely that you oh, I only want one person or a couple living here, so I'm just going to make it a one 01:13:17
bedroom. 01:13:22
Because with the property. 01:13:29
Kind of initial initiating that. 01:13:32
Building of an external unit. 01:13:36
They're taking their own youth into consideration. 01:13:38
Let me let's look at the poll really quick. 01:13:43
So which donor should ADUS be permitted? 01:13:53
Single family zones with 10,000 square foot lot size or larger. 01:13:57
Much smaller percentage of. 01:14:03
Half acre or larger preference. 01:14:07
So at least 10,000. 01:14:10
So you could say. 01:14:12
Maybe not included in the R18 film that has an 8000 square foot lot minimum size. 01:14:14
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm headed, I mean. 01:14:21
Do we have to bite off the whole thing or do we? 01:14:24
Go to the next size down and say let's see what happens. Because the problems become the smaller the lot size, the bigger the 01:14:28
problems and I think the impact of density. 01:14:33
You know, on those kind of folks, they're going to be complaining and stuff like that. 01:14:40
And if you look at I. 01:14:45
Obviously holidays, not new development, but typical new developments. And what a lot of people are looking at is smaller lot 01:14:49
sizes anyway. 01:14:53
New houses are typically 15th of an acre, 10th of an acre to maybe tops quarter of an acre. For new development. I think 1/4 of an 01:14:59
acre is considered larger than so. 01:15:06
Reasonably adding a second smaller unit onto 1/4 of an acre. 01:15:15
Would be reasonable. 01:15:21
But as you get into those larger lots in those smaller zones that falls back on the it's easier to subdivide anyway, right? 01:15:24
Because what's the minimum you have to have to subdivide in holidays and like 11,000 or something like that? 01:15:30
I think so. 01:15:38
And you have to have both your property. Both lots have to meet the minimum lot size in the zone, yeah. 01:15:39
So whatever the zoning is for like R110, it would be like 11 or 12,000, something like that. 01:15:46
R18 zone, so there was enough land area there for 4 units. 01:15:56
So those 4 units could put Eadus on them. 01:16:04
In an R18 zone, if you wanted to allow for that, yes, but it's a PUD. So we approved building areas. We didn't approve external 01:16:10
building area pads, but if it weren't if. 01:16:16
They're also limited on their structure size. So I think that developer was already looking at kind of maximizing that structure 01:16:24
coverage for the full property. They're one of the extra. 01:16:29
Structure coverage. Typically, I don't think people want to move into Puds want it so they can have external living units. 01:16:35
They're. 01:16:38
Zoning amount by owning all of the property but the quarter acre. 01:16:43
The homes and gingers. 01:16:49
On quarter acre log. 01:16:51
Could. 01:16:53
EAD is on them. 01:16:55
And Ginger could build a guest house on property. You're going to write great language that will stop that if it's. 01:16:58
And all the neighbors that have half an acre larger we do conditional. 01:17:04
And I think on half maker it's 1200 square foot footprint right across the fence on the other side to show that. 01:17:11
Can I suggest that we do two things? One is that we open and close a public hearing. 01:17:20
So that's off the agenda. Absolutely. And 2nd, we continue this to a future meeting. 01:17:26
For more language. 01:17:33
If you. 01:17:36
Hopefully there's lots of things to. 01:17:37
Yeah. And I would, I would ask are there anything, anything specific that you'd like worked in? 01:17:40
Can we get a copy of this in an editable version that we can add our comments so that you're not having to try and? 01:17:47
Write all this down. Yes, because I think there's been a lot of great suggestions here, but. 01:17:54
To consolidate that into a code, maybe a little. 01:18:00
I've been taking some notes. 01:18:04
Go into weirdness with a public meeting. Can we just continue the public meeting? 01:18:07
Changes externally or adding comments onto. 01:18:13
A document that I would send digitally, so as long as we. 01:18:18
Those come back. So we're continuing this as I understand. So as long as we're going over them in a meeting again, then that's not 01:18:22
an issue, but you don't want to be sending them to each other. 01:18:27
The other thing that I've been working on as well is looking at how many parcels we have that are half an acre or larger, so that 01:18:36
you're seeing, OK, but likely people who have 1/2 acre or larger are going to be building a larger guest house. 01:18:44
Because they can't subdivide, but they may want to build a second house, their properties bigger enough they'll do. I guess we can 01:18:52
do everything. 01:18:56
And the only the only other comment. 01:19:01
That I don't think we address as a group was whether or not to require one off. 01:19:04
Street parking, and I think we ought to weigh in on that because I think that's the biggest issue. When the public says they don't 01:19:10
like it and everything else, what they really mean is. 01:19:14
Parking and do we want to make it 1 parking space of 1 1/2? I think we ought to give you some feedback on that. And then. 01:19:20
So right now the code is that one would be required for an Adu and that's internal or external. So right now if somebody had a 01:19:30
three bedroom basement unit that they converted into a accessory dwelling unit. 01:19:37
They're only required to have one parking. 01:19:44
If you wanted to change that to tie into our off street parking requirements, that's controlled by the number of bedrooms, so one 01:19:47
bedroom. 01:19:51
One parking space, 2 bedrooms, 1 1/2 parking spaces and three bedrooms is 2 parking spaces. 01:19:56
Doing it on bedroom count. 01:20:04
How do you I have that round up? 01:20:09
You can own a motorcycle. 01:20:15
2 Smart cars. 01:20:18
So I mean when you have a house that has a garage, a house. 01:20:21
There are two parking spaces or the garage and then you have parking in the driveway, so that's two parking spaces. So that's 01:20:26
meeting the requirement. They don't have to add parking, they just have to show that they have. 01:20:32
But if they convert the garage and lose the tube inside, they have to replace. 01:20:39
Great. And our code doesn't allow for the conversion of a garage. You have to retain a garage, and that's the same thing if you 01:20:43
have a carport. You can't eliminate your carport and enclose your carport living space. You have to, since I asked for parking 01:20:49
space. 01:20:54
So the the notes that I have just you know hopefully she's been jotting all these down too as we're looking for potentially doing 01:21:01
the lot size restrictions. 01:21:06
Is that right? We want to see something in there that restricts lot size whether we do that by zone? 01:21:11
Or we just do it by lot, Size itself. But we we definitely don't want to see a bunch of EAUD. 01:21:17
I can't even say it. Anyway, we don't the extra homes being built on Tiny. 01:21:23
We're also looking at the height restriction that you brought up on line 47 of keeping that down to single level. 01:21:28
Unless anybody had an opposition to that parking requirements to match off St. and then something is clarification is that height 01:21:36
restriction? Is that for any accessory Adu or for conversion ad? 01:21:43
I think it was within the, yeah, the existing units that. 01:21:52
Are within 3. 01:21:56
I'd like to figure out what's a good standard by the setbacks so that we can kind of get comfortable because. 01:21:58
Paul, you're absolutely right. These are garages and they're meant for cars and not people. 01:22:04
And I think that's the reason why. 01:22:10
Everybody allows them to go so much closer to the property lines. The conversion to me is kind of counterintuitive to. 01:22:13
Making sense with this and so I don't want to create a code that then exacerbates the impact, you know. So going with what you 01:22:20
guys were suggesting, it's a height restriction based on if it's within a certain with I guess within the set back or the typical 01:22:27
building set back. 01:22:34
For accessories and I don't want to make it so confusing, the staff can't understand how to do it either so and then non 01:22:41
conforming. 01:22:44
I don't whether whether we want to just say no, you got to tear it down and build it within parameters or no. You just can't build 01:22:50
that as an accessory dwelling unit because you're too close to the property line and tough. It's tear down or show that your 01:22:55
living space is only within. 01:23:01
Well, I think that's dangerous too. As soon as the building's built and you're you've gone with final inspection, that part of the 01:23:08
wall gets taken and they start using the whole thing, so. 01:23:13
That's the same sort of issue that I think we can address with recording of. 01:23:20
You know this is only the permitted area. You can't have living space that extends into here. We've had like one basement that is 01:23:26
had to be dugout like 8 feet, but. 01:23:31
We had to designate on their plan and worry court against the property that that area can't ever be converted to living space. 01:23:38
Because it's all foundation like an 8 foot foundation and walls that are in there structurally. 01:23:46
So the future or the current homeowner is like, Oh yeah, no, this is not living space. We're not ever going to. 01:23:52
Storage space because it was a fire code issue with the square footage. 01:23:59
But having that specifically called out as this cannot be living space, Nobody can. It's on the title or recorded on the property. 01:24:04
Those were the suggestions that I had written down. Any others that we want to add in there before we? 01:24:14
Move forward, OK. And then as far as the public meeting, do we open and close and then we'll just have another public meeting 01:24:20
after the revised for the next draft or do we just leave the public meeting open? 01:24:26
The Planning Commission? Really. So you can open it and allow public comment and close it. 01:24:33
Since no one's here or you could open it and leave it open, have these suggestions come back in another draft the next time or. 01:24:39
However long that takes. 01:24:48
Or you can, You know, it's that's up to your prerogative. I mean, how much public input do you want? It was properly noticed so 01:24:50
public could have weighed in today. A couple members did with their emails and written comments. So if we leave public comment 01:24:56
open, doesn't that immediately put it on the the next agenda though? 01:25:01
Yeah, it will be on the next one. We don't you'll have it done either. OK, well, I just want to make sure staff has adequate time, 01:25:09
unless you want to have more time. 01:25:13
Look at it. The other thing that I can look at is how many properties do have accessory buildings on them. 01:25:17
And maybe a rough idea of what? 01:25:26
Some of those are going to be really close, some of them are going to be on properties that are. 01:25:30
Identified. Which ones are, you know, legal, non conforming and which ones are, you know, permitted? 01:25:36
It would be just a very rough like snapshot like here's. Here's what you'd be looking at. 01:25:42
Conversion. 01:25:48
How many properties could? 01:25:50
Possibly convert would probably be helpful to Anne as well just so we it's on the radar of what our Max potential is, right? 01:25:54
Going to be a lot of scrolling, so and what are the chances that we're ever going to be in compliance? 01:26:01
We're in compliance because there's no number. 01:26:08
Ordinance that you have to have in the process. The real challenge and the real fight is. 01:26:14
You know, the east side developed first. 01:26:19
Right, closer to the nicer mountains, in my opinion. 01:26:23
So developed, you know, closer to the greater, more abundant water sources, that's pretty standard how development works in the 01:26:28
West. You find the water, you develop there first. Well, So what we have is a whole bunch of land that was held by a major 01:26:34
corporation that has been released by that major corporation over the last 20 years and sold as housing. And so you have all of 01:26:41
this modern income housing demand. 01:26:47
And the pressure is on three cities. 01:26:54
That are include that land and so you have that development that's occurring. 01:26:58
And you have a percentage, I mean holiday what is probably 95% single family homes, 5% apartment type things? 01:27:04
And you have the ratios there of more like 6040 and you know on the West side of the foot of the the Ochers and so there's all 01:27:12
this pressure that this moderate income housing is going to be. 01:27:19
Disproportionately. 01:27:27
Borne by. 01:27:28
Cities and the consequences 30 years and 40 years down the road from now are going to be. 01:27:30
Largely different than what they hear and that's just a fact, right? That's so, but that's where kind of this tension is coming in 01:27:37
the legislature. And so that's why these strategies, there's 26 if I remember. 01:27:42
Choose five. 01:27:48
And largely built out cities are very limited in the options that they can choose. 01:27:51
They just don't work because there's not undeveloped land. Could you tell us what the other ones are off the top of your hood? 01:27:58
Some of the other the other strategies that holidays opted for. 01:28:06
I can pull up the modern guessing plan. 01:28:10
We have the strategy E which is creating attached to the atheist strategy F. 01:28:14
That was his owner. We don't for hire dancing. 01:28:20
In their transit areas. 01:28:24
Strategy H. 01:28:27
Amend land use regulations to eliminate and reduce parking requirements, which we did. 01:28:29
A strategy L. 01:28:36
Which was reduced weight and eliminate impact fees related to moderate income housing. Reduced fees impact fee impact fees. 01:28:38
And then strategy. 01:28:48
Which was applied for partner with an entity who applies for funding state funding. 01:28:50
So that is largely. 01:28:56
We have one film that we change partnering with the Room, the holiday converts some of their is that the one up near the gravel 01:29:02
pit. 01:29:06
So converting professional offices to I think they got what was that 80 units that we got out of that or something like that, 100 01:29:10
units, OK. 01:29:14
Well, and one of the things, one of the components of Holiday Hills is that tax increment incentive. So a certain portion of that 01:29:19
money that comes the increment financing has to go back into moderate income housing. If a portion of it is already earmarked by 01:29:26
state law, the difference that you're getting off of that, you can invest some of that back into the property to incentivize the 01:29:32
redevelopment, but a portion of it has to go into moderate income housing in the city. 01:29:39
And the last strategy is Strategy P, which demonstrate utilization of the moderate income housing set aside. 01:29:46
Funding. 01:29:54
So we're like most of the way there on most of these, right? Like. 01:29:57
We got a good head start and feels good about it. 01:30:01
Some tweaking ready so that that's actually doing something awesome. All right, Well, my personal opinion is that we probably, if 01:30:04
we're going to go back and revise the text before we make a recommendation to City Council that we probably had to allow the 01:30:10
public at least to comment on any revisions that are made. 01:30:16
That's just my opinion, So I would think that we probably should go ahead and open the public meeting and then if someone wants to 01:30:22
make a motion to continue. 01:30:27
I'll be happy to make a motion to continue the public hearing. All right, public hearing and this agenda item tonight. 01:30:33
And do we have a second? 01:30:41
All right. Got a second. Can we just do it all in favor on it? All in favor, say aye. Any opposed? All right, fantastic. So with 01:30:43
that, we have continued that and I'll go ahead and make a motion for the Commission to adjourn. All in favor? Aye. All right, 01:30:49
we'll see you next time. 01:30:55
Thank you everyone. Thank you. 01:31:02
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Give me just a minute. 00:00:01
Fantastic. So with that, this is the Holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 5:34 PM on. 00:00:03
That's not right. 00:00:14
January 23rd 2024 and. 00:00:17
In attendance we have Commissioner Baron, Commissioner Gong, Chair Rd. Commissioner for. 00:00:21
Mr. Cunningham. 00:00:28
City staff and council, and with that we have one item on the agenda. 00:00:31
Tonight and it is the text amendment around accessory dwelling units and carries going to present on that and then are we going to 00:00:37
have our guests present during the work meeting or during the public hearing. 00:00:44
I will have Anne Garcia present during the public meeting. 00:00:52
Perfect. Perfect. With that, then I will turn it over to you and let's talk about Adus and all the fun they have. 00:00:59
So I guess do we want to start with any questions that any of you had on the proposed changes? 00:01:06
I know we had a discussion on this in October, November. 00:01:13
The biggest change on it is. 00:01:18
Well, I guess a few key changes defining the owner occupancy that is consistent with the home occupations so that it matches up as 00:01:22
having a formal definition within both of those as to what an owner occupied is. 00:01:29
Yes, owner occupied. 00:01:40
Blood marriage. 00:01:43
Means that the owner can never has to live. 00:01:45
As long as one of those people does so, that could be a Ranger. 00:01:51
My cousin. 00:01:57
Thank you cousin his friends. 00:01:59
Live in. 00:02:04
As long as. 00:02:07
Is OK. 00:02:09
Then we will pretend that the owner doesn't. 00:02:11
And that's owner occupancy can be a little bit tricky. We run into that issue with enforcement as well. How do you verify if you 00:02:15
have? 00:02:19
And we do have the property ownership affidavit, so it would be stated, here's the property owner whoever's listed on the title 00:02:24
deed, and then the agent would be a family member. 00:02:30
And you run into things with. 00:02:40
You have a lot of properties and Holiday are owned by LLC's or they'll put the property in an LLC specific for the property. 00:02:43
Sometimes it's a family trust. 00:02:48
So where there's so many family trusts, LLCS, various things that kind of. 00:02:55
I think just some consistency there as to what a family member. 00:03:00
Is defined as. 00:03:05
And the other major part on that is adding. 00:03:11
The standards for if you were to convert an existing accessory building. 00:03:16
A lot of those are going to be closer in setbacks. 00:03:22
Some of them may have a doorway or windows on a property line side, so how do you address those? So having some standards in the 00:03:27
code to address converting existing, that was the main direction from the City Council was we want to look at how we can convert 00:03:34
existing accessory buildings, so that's what adding that section is. 00:03:41
We did also remove the lot minimum size. 00:03:51
Of half an acre or twice the minimum lot size. As you've seen with some of our conditional use permits for building footprint 00:03:55
size, they're typically on properties that are half an acre or larger and they're wanting to put a bigger house. So properties 00:04:04
they can't subdivide but want to have a larger structure on there or a larger accessory building with a accessory unit. 00:04:12
And that was consistent. The reasoning behind removing nuts is because we have the guest house allowance on half an acre or larger 00:04:23
properties and consistent with the polling data that we had from when we initially did the accessory dwelling unit text in 2021. 00:04:32
The history with adding that half an acre and twice the minimum lot size, that was an addition that was added in after it was 00:04:44
recommended by Planning Commission by the City Council. 00:04:49
So Planning Commission initially didn't have that qualification in when we when you made the recommendation or when they made the 00:04:56
recommendations to the council and then that was added in by City Council after the public hearing there. 00:05:02
So can I ask the tough question? Are they asking for recommendation on should they make this change? 00:05:11
Or are they asking for recommendation on? Are these the changes that would carry out the direction that they want to go? 00:05:18
That's. 00:05:27
Well, just to the the preface if and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but this is a state mandated legislative change that we're 00:05:30
falling in compliance with by making these changes or no. So the moderate income housing goals is the state is looking for actual 00:05:39
application of the strategies. So we have strategies to meet our moderate income housing goals. 00:05:48
And then they want in the reporting for moderate income housing, how are we actually meeting those? How are we taking action on 00:05:58
those strategies? So the strategy that's outlined in the staff report is to reduce regulations related to accessory dwelling 00:06:05
units, but there's no current statute or no requirement from the legislature currently to have have it applied to all zones in the 00:06:11
city. 00:06:18
No, OK. 00:06:26
So and to clarify on that, if we just were to water the text amendment down to one thing, would that be considered meeting the 00:06:29
qualification of modification or is there a certain number of them that have to be adjusted? Yeah. 00:06:35
Any any sort of modification. So if we just change one thing that made it a little bit looser on the very minor minor detail check 00:06:43
that box right. And then down the line as we're reporting on that is that effective, has that actually produced any housing units 00:06:50
And so that's kind of the point where we're looking at that half acre size. Yes, we've had some applications for accessory 00:06:57
dwelling units on half acre lots, but we're not getting the. 00:07:04
For and, there's some internal accessory building units or attached to the main house. 00:07:12
So we do get permits on those. Those are in the staff report. 00:07:17
But we do deny applications for if they're not 1/2 acre and they want to do an external accessory going in it. 00:07:22
And it isn't really driving. This is the one. 00:07:29
Accessory unit will be setting. 00:07:34
That that was. 00:07:39
What brought it to the council's attention is they said OK, well, rezoning is a strategy in our general plan to meet moderate 00:07:42
income housing goals. If we're not going to necessarily rezone, maybe we need to look at our Adu ordinance and so specifically 00:07:49
looking at converting existing accessory growing units. 00:07:55
As a way to meet smaller income housing goals. 00:08:02
And is Does that boil down? 00:08:05
Allowing ad. 00:08:09
On smaller properties. 00:08:12
And one is currently allowed. 00:08:14
So those two properties we I think that case that college referring to, there were three different owners that came in all. 00:08:18
And there were two of the properties that they wanted to rezone because they weren't large enough properties to put. 00:08:28
And accessory dwelling again. So with this text amendment they would be able to go ahead. 00:08:37
And build. 00:08:44
Right. So if you're looking at those three properties, one is .16 acres has an existing accessory detached building that has a 00:08:48
studio or basement unit basement, it's bonus space. So they can't use it as a dwelling unit. So it's just bonus space. So that 00:08:56
amending the text to allow for the conversion of existing. 00:09:04
Accessory buildings to dwelling units would allow that property owner to converge their accessory volume unit or their accessory 00:09:14
building to an accessory dwelling unit. The other two properties, one is .40 acres, I think the other one is .30 acres. Neither of 00:09:21
those properties could build an accessory loan unit with this text amendment. With the text amendment if you remove the half acre 00:09:29
lot size minimum that they could. 00:09:36
But as is, they cannot. 00:09:44
Kerry, correct me if I'm wrong. So this was about a year ago, the Planning Commission reviewed our moderating maybe just two years 00:09:48
ago now moderate income housing plan and legislature mandated and we had to have, we had to pick if I remember it, there had to be 00:09:55
like 7. They offered what was it 30 different strategies and we had to choose at least seven as part of your moderate income 00:10:03
housing plan. I may be off on those two numbers, but there was a number that you had to choose and the city had could. 00:10:10
City Council could choose whichever one they wanted, but because it's the land use. 00:10:18
An element to the general plan, the Planning Commission had to do that. So we adopted that and one of the things that the moderate 00:10:22
income housing element that Ledma requires. 00:10:27
That's the Land Use Development Management Act. It's 10984 O3 in the general Plan, preparation of which the Moderate Income 00:10:34
Housing Plan is a part of that, but it says. 00:10:39
Each General Plan or Moderate Income Housing Plan has to have a component that. 00:10:45
A provides A realistic opportunity to meet the need for additional moderate income housing within the municipality during the next 00:10:51
five years, and there's also reporting requirement annually on that for a city the size of holiday and I can't remember the floor 00:10:57
on that, but holiday meets that requirement so they have to report back to DWS. 00:11:03
There once the initial requirement was to. 00:11:10
Have a moderate income housing. 00:11:14
The second, the next year, is to report back on progress made in. 00:11:16
Either adopting more. 00:11:22
Liberal policies that allow for more modern housing to be developed within your municipality. So that's what this is also part of. 00:11:25
It's not just. 00:11:29
That that came up with that. 00:11:35
That those particular things came to the attention of the City Council. It's also the legislature is requiring cities to do this. 00:11:38
So these are taking from the strategies that we adopted and implementing them. So and it can introduce Ann Garcia Housing Director 00:11:45
and she you can she can answer any questions for you as well on what those moderate income housing bills are what direction from 00:11:52
City Council from the city manager has been. 00:12:00
And do you want to? 00:12:08
Introduce yourself and maybe give a little bit of background as we're all talking about it. 00:12:09
Economic Development and Housing Manager. 00:12:16
We have 26 strategies that we needed to choose from. The city decided to choose six out of those. 00:12:20
Strategies to focus on and the strategies you have to have actions associated with each strategy in addition to task. 00:12:29
That you need to comply with and report on. So every year you have to report on. Last year was first year reporting on that. 00:12:37
We did approve the revision to the Moderate Income Housing Plan in February of 23. 00:12:45
And the reporting. 00:12:53
Was due August 1st. 00:12:56
And it was very challenging. 00:12:59
Because we could only report on. 00:13:02
Actions that were completed. 00:13:06
From the date that your plan was approved. 00:13:09
Which was February, so we. 00:13:14
Six months to report on action, so we didn't have that much to to report on and one of them was Strategy E, which is to create an 00:13:17
associated with ADUS so. 00:13:23
I don't know if that if you have any other questions. No, we did memory serves going back to this. 00:13:30
We did make some kind of modification to. 00:13:37
Attached dwelling units did we not, did we not approve some kind of something that changed and loosened the? 00:13:40
Requirements around Adus or am I dreaming right up in my head? Yes, we did. But that was that was outside of this. That was 00:13:48
required anyway. Basically the legislature just said. 00:13:52
I don't care what your ordinances say internally to use are allowed. OK, so that one was that one was the state saying do this. 00:13:58
And our initial 80 ordinance was created, so adding the text in 2021. So we looked at you know internal Adus, but then also by 00:14:08
external ADUS. The state does allow more regulation around external Adus because they do realize that's a unit that's outside of a 00:14:16
main structure. So cities should have some say over set back or. 00:14:24
Windows, doors, other things. Those can be more regulated. Lot size, another thing. 00:14:33
So. 00:14:40
That's where those regulations for the external AD use originated from. 00:14:41
We were given 26 options. 00:14:47
And we adopted 66, yes. So if you, if you were to go back and look at those. 00:14:49
With a city like holiday in which I would describe as mature and near build out. 00:14:56
You couldn't have adopted any of the other 20. 00:15:02
I mean, I have to go back and look at all of them and review them. But my recollection is if you are a city that had no vacant 00:15:06
land, your ability to adopt those was very, very limited. 00:15:11
And you were basically here's your option internally externally to use accessory buildings, smaller lot sizes on redevelopment. I 00:15:17
mean those are your strategies that you. 00:15:21
You were pretty much funneled into. These are your options. 00:15:27
Pick any color you want, as long as it's black and what are the penalties. 00:15:30
If we don't, the penalties. 00:15:34
There I think they get my recollection is I should have looked at them for this, but they there's access to the Olean Walker 00:15:39
Moderate Income Housing Fund or Low Income Housing Fund that gets and there's also some transportation dollars that get come off 00:15:45
the table and they get increasingly more punitive. 00:15:52
The further out you go from compliance, from the reporting requirements and all those things memory serves, it was like you had to 00:15:59
have four or five to just not get in trouble. And then if you've got six, it was like there's the bonus money, right, right 00:16:03
strategies if you report on them. 00:16:08
On five strategies, then you are allowed to apply for the. 00:16:14
Transportation dollars, if you don't have anything and you don't have a plan or a report that is in compliance, there's some fees 00:16:19
associated with that. Yeah, there was some actual dollars that had to be paid out if you weren't in compliance with the 00:16:25
requirement by. 00:16:31
I can't. What was it? It was it may, I think or something like that. Well, after reporting you're given like 90 days to get in 00:16:38
compliance if you're not. So yeah, so there was, yeah, but it was a per day fine if you were out of compliance. And again it there 00:16:44
were four requirements. You had to be a city of a certain size population wise before they triggered those penalties. So tiny town 00:16:50
Utah didn't get. 00:16:56
Eaten away when they have a $12,000 budget and they just had to pay $10,000. 00:17:03
In fees and fines to the Department of Workforce Services. 00:17:09
I have a question. 00:17:13
Self report there's a table that talks about. 00:17:16
Application are those active applications right now that the staff is looking at for internal use, external use? 00:17:21
So do you have any sense? 00:17:29
Yeah, this doesn't seem like very high numbers. So, so. 00:17:32
My question is do we have any sense of if this ordinance changes, how much demand there is, is there going to be something 300 00:17:38
people who want to build Navy, you think it will be instead of eight, there will be 15 like do we, do we have any sense of of how 00:17:44
many people might be interested in this when it changes? 00:17:49
Conversations I've had with people that kind of intensity we have open counter time. People come in and say, you know, I want to 00:17:55
build. 00:17:58
Detached garage and I want to put a dwelling unit above it, one bedroom or studio. I want to have something above my garage 00:18:03
because I'm already building a detached garage. 00:18:08
Typically those are on lots that are smaller than half an acre and we repeated or regularly have to tell people that you can't do 00:18:14
a dwelling unit, you can build it. 00:18:19
It can be bonus space, but it can't actually count as a dwelling unit. 00:18:25
So, so you think it'll it'll go up, it would probably be similar to what we're seeing with internal Adus. It's not going to be 00:18:33
huge when you think of you as a property owner it it takes somebody who actually wants to have that use on their property, right? 00:18:41
If that's something that you want to have on your property and you have the capital to build it. 00:18:52
And then we'd see a permit for it. 00:18:58
Do we have any other questions for? 00:19:01
And she's standing at the front end, just eagerly awaiting. 00:19:03
Is there a separate, I like that, I love that chart. It was great to see it. But that's kind of a proxy for modern income housing, 00:19:07
not necessarily you could have. 00:19:12
A rent on a for $3000 on one and therefore it didn't create any moderate income housing. 00:19:18
You have other things happening with apartments being built and with Holiday Hills. Is that also not contributing to our 00:19:26
commitment to have moderate income housing? 00:19:31
Those units are are contributing because we're looking at total unit count, is that right, Anne? 00:19:38
When we're looking at moderate income housing goals, the units that are going to be coming online with Holiday Hills 100. 00:19:45
Yeah, Yeah. We're looking at 100 units. 00:19:54
What is our metric that says we're we're down tinkering with the zoning because we are meeting the dollar? 00:20:01
Umm, typically it's an ongoing process. You're always going to have applications for rezoning. 00:20:10
That's going to be a continual, especially as a community that's built out, what areas are going to transition into higher uses? 00:20:17
And that's pretty standard across all cities and there's a progress report annually. So you you can't. 00:20:26
Just stop progress. You have to be able to show that you. 00:20:35
Moving forward and providing some form of affordability for our residents in whatever capacity, is there a definition for 00:20:40
moderate? Because it feels like moderate income and holiday would actually be a different definition than moderate income in Rose 00:20:47
Park. So is it relative to the average housing price? How's that measured? Yes, it is. There is. 00:20:54
See here. Good question because it's based off of. 00:21:02
The media enter the area, so it's some percentage of median income that it would say people would allocate to housing. So you look 00:21:07
at that, the area median income of Salt Lake County and that's what we use. So that median income is $106,000. 00:21:15
And then so then you're looking at 80% and below which is considered moderate 850 to 80% of your salary. Of that 108,000 that's 00:21:24
going to be your bracket, 80% would still be considered moderate income housing. So it's not necessarily that we're looking to 00:21:32
solve affordable housing goods that meeting the the moderate housing goal. You know there's that's considered a full but something 00:21:41
that. 00:21:49
Matches with the. 00:21:57
Typical salary that you'd see in an area, got it. So that's. So I mean that's $50,000 a year. 00:22:00
50 to $60,000 a year, 1200 bucks a month is what we're talking about for and you're looking at. 00:22:08
The rent range 1074 to 1716. 00:22:16
Yeah. And that's another new construction, Yeah. And that's going to be filling in that area. When you think of like, OK, what if 00:22:21
I were looking for a rental and holiday that's between 1000 to 1500 a month. It's going to be like a one bedroom apartment or a 00:22:27
basement apartment. 00:22:34
Or possibly an Adu. It's not necessarily going to be a guest house that somebody's building on half an acre property. It's. 00:22:41
More typically going to be something that somebody's either built a kind of attached unit that's more separated to their main 00:22:49
house or. 00:22:54
Converted a. 00:23:00
Detached garage that they don't need something like that, you know it's how are you? 00:23:02
Yeah, it's typical. Rents are usually you're based in apartments and smaller units. 00:23:09
Question I have, if I may on this. 00:23:14
If this, the text amendment gets approved to understand the intent is to allow pretty much everyone anywhere in the city to create 00:23:17
these EADUS with defined parameters around them. But does that also open the door for new development to come in and say, oh look, 00:23:24
I can put in an entire row of houses on these tiny lots and there's just enough room that I can put a bunch of rental garages 00:23:31
behind each one of them. And now all of a sudden we have 80 houses where? 00:23:39
40 we're. 00:23:46
I mean when if you have a. 00:23:49
Company that buys 1020 lots at holidays, land prices and builds tiny houses on all of them. 00:23:53
Is that actually going to happen? I mean, is it likely, right? I get that, but I'm just going to understand how this could impact 00:24:04
future development. Or I mean, it could also be that somebody who buys a house and it's maybe their first house that they buy, 00:24:11
they can stay there longer because now they can build. 00:24:17
Accessory unit or it makes it affordable for somebody to buy a house because they can have a basement that they can rent out. 00:24:23
That's a pretty standard thing when you're just starting out. It's oh, I I don't have any kids yet. I'm going to buy a house and 00:24:31
then I can rent out the basement. So being able to have some sort of the dwelling unit that you can add to your property, either 00:24:39
converting something internally or as your family grows that you can now build an external unit and maintain that. 00:24:47
Kind of rental. 00:24:55
Yeah, I have a question and a comment. Question is. 00:24:58
Do we really have a choice? 00:25:03
You you do have a choice and it's but it's the pressure I think increases as we as we go along because if you you can. 00:25:08
Even if you make changes, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's you're going to have applications. In this case, I can tell you 00:25:18
that if you made the change tonight to remove that half acre lot size minimum, you'd have two applications right away. 00:25:26
Those two are .47 and .48 acres. 00:25:35
They can't do any of you. One of those I know is on a corner lot, so their access for the Adu is on one St. their houses on the 00:25:38
other street. 00:25:41
And so the decisions that we make now are not so concerning to me. You know, that's two more. 00:25:46
But what does concern me is, as Dennis said, it's what does this look like into the future and I think. 00:25:55
One of the things that we need to safeguard is what we all love about holiday. 00:26:03
And I don't think that what you're. 00:26:10
Suggesting here is so outlandish. 00:26:13
I think that it is entirely possible that somebody could buy up some land and build some small homes and say, oh, I've got a 00:26:16
little bit of space in the back. I'm going to build 10 little Adus in the back as well because I'm not going to violate any 00:26:22
ordinances if I do that and. 00:26:28
I've seen this happen in communities in California where every square inch of dirt gets built on and there's no place to park and 00:26:35
everybody's parking on the street and and it just happens over time. 00:26:42
And what we love about our. 00:26:50
He wrote, and it erodes. 00:26:54
And so while we sit here tonight and we say, well, this doesn't seem so bad, you know, it's eight now and it's. 00:26:57
Five next year it might be 3 the year after that, and that doesn't seem so bad and before we know it. 00:27:04
We've paved paradise. 00:27:11
You know, and and that's what concerns me about this, this whole thing and that's why I asked about penalties and. 00:27:14
Whether we have options and so forth, so that's what I want us to consider. 00:27:21
Two other comments. 00:27:29
One is the timing. We're we're way ahead of the curve. I just went on unincorporated counties website, you're doing a survey to 00:27:32
see what they should do for external ADUS. 00:27:37
They're not in any hurry. They say right in their plan that they don't have the plan ready in 2025. 00:27:42
They're just doing the survey. Invited me to take the survey because apparently they can't tell whether you live in their 00:27:48
catchment area and then we only. 00:27:53
The ordinance itself was done in 2021, which is 2 years ago. 00:27:58
We've only actually. 00:28:04
Last year did something that's been less than a year and we're ready to change the ordinance again mainly driven I think because 00:28:05
of. 00:28:09
Two particular people. 00:28:13
And that I don't know why we're in a rush to change the ordinance. I do agree with one gentleman who wrote in it said why are we 00:28:16
in such a hurry? 00:28:20
To declare that it's not working and we need to do the next thing. Will be one of the very first cities to do this. I don't know 00:28:26
why we need to be the first city to do this. 00:28:30
There'll be a day when the legislature makes this do it, but right now, if we do this, my belief is that. 00:28:37
The development community will use holiday as leverage to tell a little holiday can do it, Anyone can do it. 00:28:45
And with that, I'm just going to pause real quick on the questions. We're at 603 and I'm just going to go ahead and close the work 00:28:53
meeting and then open the official meeting unless there's any reason not to. And I, since we don't have any members of the public 00:28:59
here, we'll go ahead and nominate the opening statement that we read and then we can continue the discussion. 00:29:06
So just for the record check mark. 00:29:13
But good, good comments and I guess just kind of along those same lines. 00:29:17
Before we go on with any further questions around the current text amendment, since the point has been brought up about just 00:29:22
concerns. 00:29:25
Of the intent and the scope of it thus far, some of our other commissioners gone, Baron Vilchinski, do you have similar thoughts 00:29:29
or concerns around that or opposing thoughts or concerns around that before we further the discussions? 00:29:35
I do observe the same thought. We put it very well, and in looking over there, they immediately thought. 00:29:43
So when it resulting application that we have. 00:29:51
And the amount of public that came out for that and your concerns? 00:29:56
And why they were OPP. 00:30:01
And so it concerns me changing the text or recommending changing the text and allowing. 00:30:04
For that same scenario to happen, knowing that we've had. 00:30:13
Citizens come forward and. 00:30:18
Opposed. 00:30:21
I don't feel like we can necessarily ignore. 00:30:23
OK, good comments, Commissioner, Baron or Commissioner gone? 00:30:29
Well, I just listening to all this, I wasn't a part of the previous discussion, so I appreciate the update. 00:30:32
Your input. 00:30:39
Have we had a lot of problems with this? 00:30:42
Obviously there's a couple of examples, but if somebody were to come in and get a building permit for an accessory building? 00:30:45
Garage storage that whatever you want as long as they met the. 00:30:53
Lot coverage, setbacks, building separation. We would issue a building permit, right? Yes. So we would issue a building permit for 00:30:59
an accessory building. 00:31:03
So is the concern that people might be living there at some point in time? 00:31:08
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but I'm trying to figure out also what what we're envisioning is going to happen with 00:31:14
this. 00:31:17
And I don't have the history that you do. So I apologize if I'm stepping on a base toes and I don't mean to, but. 00:31:23
I think by the nature of the fact that the ordinance creates setbacks and additional things. 00:31:30
For these type of units doesn. 00:31:37
To some degree, mitigate the. 00:31:40
Right. 00:31:42
And that's that is the intention of. 00:31:44
Well, we can already build accessory buildings. If it's going to be a dwelling unit, how do you offset the impacts of that? 00:31:48
Considering. 00:31:56
The impacts of an internal accessory dwelling unit versus a external. Your parking is going to be the same. If you have a dwelling 00:31:58
unit that you're adding on to a house, you're adding one to two cars for that accessory dwelling unit, whether it's inside of a 00:32:05
house or outside of a house. So parking, long unit, accessory interior, exterior, they can only have one accessory dwelling unit 00:32:12
on the property. They can't have a basement unit and an external unit. 00:32:20
So it's limited to 1 accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:27
When you're with so the parking that's largely addressed, you're going to have that impact either way because we already allow an 00:32:32
internal accessory dwelling unit. 00:32:36
The impact is that you're having a dwelling unit that's closer to property lines and how is that then regulated and I think that. 00:32:42
What we discussed when we were looking at that R2 zone, so in R. 00:32:54
By creating smaller bots. 00:32:58
You're setting your property or your building further away from your property lines, so that's and I think that's sometimes missed 00:33:01
with the public. They just see it as density increasing. We're adding more units that aren't there currently, even though you have 00:33:07
a .4 acre lot. 00:33:13
An R2 zone would have allowed them to put another unit or two units on there. So now without having the R2 zone and they can't 00:33:20
subdivide, people are looking at accessory units. If you're building an accessory unit as a homeowner, you're going to locate it 00:33:26
further away. 00:33:32
So you get smaller setbacks with accessory units, so as a trade off. 00:33:39
Argue is there any logic in just making any type of accessory dwelling unit? 00:33:44
Have the same setbacks as the primary. 00:33:51
There are cities that do that. I think that Cottonwood Heights has that. That's pretty common. 00:33:54
So I mean, there's no advantage then? 00:34:00
The Accessory Dwelling. 00:34:04
And you keep within the setbacks of the building envelope. 00:34:05
Right. So does that make sense to everybody or so then you might have like I think our smallest rear yard setback is 25 feet. 00:34:11
So if you were going to do an external accessory dwelling unit, you'd have to have it be. 00:34:22
25 feet in and then whatever your side set back is, and that might be 5 feet, 8 feet. 00:34:28
And this makes it much smaller because this matches in the accessory building, which can be quite close, right? Right. 00:34:35
In addition to that, doesn't it also allow for the conversion of existing accessory buildings, which even if they're legal non 00:34:42
conforming, they can still be modified under this ordinance? 00:34:47
Right, the proposal, right. So if you have a shed in the back that you can't build today, but was built legally 20 years ago, you 00:34:52
can convert that to an accessory dwelling unit and even add a story onto it if you wanted to. 00:34:58
Right, but you just couldn't have windows opening on exterior side of adding windows. And if you're adding. 00:35:05
The text includes, if you're adding a second level onto it. One, you're still going to have to meet a graduated height 00:35:13
requirement. So if your building is really close to the property line, if it's existing and you're adding a second level. 00:35:19
Our graduated heights is like a 45° angle over from 8 feet up, so you go 8 feet up on the property line. 00:35:27
And at 45° over and your building can't be in or, it can't be outside of that 45° angle, so you're 80. You wouldn't be looking 00:35:34
over your neighbors right then. And so that's. We run into that With detached garages, it can't. 00:35:40
People want them to be super close, but a lot of times if they're going above a certain height, they have to back them away 00:35:48
anyway. So if you're going to a full 20 foot height, you probably have to back that away even further. 00:35:55
And then the second story window you can have any windows on. 00:36:03
On the property sides, just a slanted room you can have. You can have a clear story window that's six feet above so that you're 00:36:09
not having. If you have a second level or you have an accessory unit, you're not having windows that people can look out of on 00:36:15
neighboring property sites. 00:36:20
So what's the advantage to doing this? I mean if you got an existing, existing, existing unit? 00:36:33
I mean, I can understand why people would be concerned too then. 00:36:41
You know this to me doesn. 00:36:46
Makes sense that we're going to go ahead and promote people who have done something that. 00:36:47
Allowed the accessory building to be at 3 feet or five feet, whatever it is, and now we're going to go ahead and build. 00:36:53
Of actual dwelling unit there to me. 00:36:59
I worry about this existing stuff. 00:37:03
That was the concern as well is if we're looking at external external dwelling units, staff preference is to just have it meet the 00:37:06
standards from the beginning if you have an existing building. 00:37:13
That is already there. 00:37:21
Maybe you can't have any dwelling space in that, that you can add on to it and put dwelling space outside of that that needs the 00:37:23
standards. I mean, what you're suggesting to me meets. 00:37:28
Intent of the goal that the legislature's provided us. So I don't think we're, I think we're protecting the neighborhood, but also 00:37:34
meeting. 00:37:38
Expectation of the. 00:37:43
So in my mind that's where I would like to see this. 00:37:46
Because I think, and unfortunately too many things are existing. 00:37:50
And may not be legal at some point in. 00:37:54
And when you have non conforming in these kind of statements you all of a sudden things get really they can become very difficult 00:37:56
to. 00:38:01
Regulate. 00:38:06
I mean, just to give an example, I have a greenhouse in my backyard, right? And it's probably. 00:38:08
10 feet from the property line at the back and it's a big greenhouse I built in the I don't know, it's an aluminum frame, but the 00:38:14
footprint is there and it's an accessory building, right? And probably non conforming. I don't know. It's a mess, but. 00:38:22
I could if this were to pass as it's currently written because and find you I'm on 1/4 acre lot. This is not a big lot, right? 00:38:31
This is a small lot with a small split level home on it. 00:38:36
But if this. 00:38:43
Theoretically, and I go through, you know, the building permit process. 00:38:45
I could go in and I could put a two-story building in my backyard. As long as the windows don't face the neighbors and it's not 00:38:49
taller than my existing house, I now have a two-story home right behind my home. 00:38:56
That I can do as rental income or whatever. 00:39:03
I want it because it's a dwelling unit, right? And that depends on the set back. So if you're adding a second level on, it still 00:39:06
would have to meet the graduated height and if your existing footprint is. 00:39:12
Close to the property line, then you wouldn't be able to add a second. Well, I got 10 feet. I got, I got at least 10 feet. So I 00:39:18
got a good buffer. I'll meet that 45, no problem. But you run into that with any accessories unit. So it's just been adding the 00:39:24
dwelling unit portion. And we have people who call about their neighbors building a detached garage there. I guess too close to 00:39:30
the property line, it's too tall, but. 00:39:37
It's perfectly legal. 00:39:44
So they're meeting all the standards of graduated height. They're meeting the standards of. 00:39:46
Building heights setbacks. 00:39:50
That's all within those standards, but people don't like even just a detached accessory building. 00:39:53
That's large. 00:40:00
So I think the the concern I might be just echoing which is everybody, well most of the Commissioners on here voice which is. 00:40:02
We're opening this Pandora's box, so to speak, and I can already tell you that a third of my neighbors would be very unhappy if I 00:40:12
replaced my dilapidated greenhouse with A2 story rental home. 00:40:18
Right. And so I'm, I'm wondering because I do understand the intent of what we're trying to do and I'm not trying to stop new 00:40:25
housing like we've got to accommodate like there's going to be 3,000,000 more people living in the Wasatch Front over the next 25 00:40:30
years. 00:40:35
At our current growth rate, right. I'm not saying they'll have to live in holiday, but we should accommodate some of it, right, 00:40:40
and not just take the knot in my backyard approach. So with that being said, what? 00:40:45
With the planning commissioners feels an appropriate amendment to what's been presented. 00:40:51
I'm not as concerned about the half, eight, less than half acre people that had their, you know, dwelling units that wanted to 00:41:29
build next door. But the guy that literally bought a house with a mother-in-law apartment, but because it didn't open in his home, 00:41:35
it opened on the side of his home, He couldn't use it as a dwelling unit. In my mind that's like. 00:41:41
Making somehow that to be legal. 00:41:48
Seems to make sense or you know, comply with the city ordinance. So I think whatever text amendment allows for that to be OK, 00:41:51
maybe not so much the neighbors with the .4 acre lot. 00:41:57
But that's just me chiming in on that. So with that I'll kind of turn it back over to the Planning Commission to I have 00:42:03
Commissioner Ruth, I had a quick option as we're talking about the second level. I mean an option could be that you could allow 00:42:09
single level accessory falling units. 00:42:16
If within that closer set back, if you wanted to add a second level, it would have to meet the. 00:42:23
Setbacks required for a main structure. 00:42:30
I think there's a a difference between. 00:42:35
Building a separate structure and the neighbors go crazy because there's a separate garage being built. 00:42:39
And building a separate structure that somebody's actually going to. 00:42:46
And I think that's where people go, whoa, there's going to be neighbors right there. 00:42:50
I. 00:42:58
And I feel. 00:43:01
This group that this is an issue that. 00:43:04
Might require that we continue the discussion. 00:43:08
I don't feel that we have enough information. It just seems to me that we're evaluating this in a vacuum. 00:43:13
We don't know what the alternatives are. I understand that. 00:43:21
That we have an issue here. We have a problem and we've got a problem that is probably going to have to be addressed. 00:43:25
By this. 00:43:33
And I think this is 1. 00:43:37
Possible. 00:43:40
I think there might be other solutions but. 00:43:42
Should come before this Comm. 00:43:45
I don't know that, but I think that's a possibility. 00:43:48
I I just feel like we're looking at this in a vacuum. 00:43:52
And it just doesn't feel right to me at this time. It doesn't feel like we have enough information. 00:43:55
OK. Appreciate that. 00:44:03
Commission Commissioner. Gonna, yeah. 00:44:07
I I really like the idea of eight years. I think it keeps things, it increases density, which obviously we must do. 00:44:11
While keeping things residential, I would much rather live in an Edu or a house with an Adu than I would a box Cond. 00:44:20
100. 00:44:28
I think it's. I think it keeps it feeling like holiday without without building up, but it does increase density my my memory of. 00:44:30
So my questions are, how will the neighbors interact? 00:44:43
So I think I the suggestion about keeping them lower. 00:44:50
I I'm really interested in that. 00:44:54
I don't yet have clarity about. 00:44:59
In my mind about because I like the idea of consistent converting an existing structure, I think that makes it accessible for 00:45:01
people who may not otherwise be able to do it. 00:45:07
And I think part of the modern income housing as well, who are they renting to? It's a smaller thing. But also as we mentioned, 00:45:13
the people who can afford to live in the Holiday House are now people who have another income stream. I think that's. 00:45:19
A good idea? So so making it easier for people to convert things. I think that's a good idea, but I'm not quite sure of all of 00:45:27
the. 00:45:30
Implications of that, but I I think ideas are a good idea and I like them much better than. 00:45:35
Building a giant holiday hills and I like it a lot more So. So my questions are how? How will we make it feel like it's not so 00:45:42
close, but still. 00:45:48
Let people convert existing things. I think another question I had. 00:45:53
The big thing with Butternut 50 neighbors showed up and they said we all hate the traffic. 00:45:58
I don't know. I think 30 years in the future there are going to be twice as many cars in the Valley. 00:46:03
Or people can drive less. I just think that's a change that will happen in the Valley and I don't know how to. I don't know what 00:46:10
that will look like in the interim because. 00:46:15
Parking will be harder, traffic will increase and I and I don't know how to address that because of course there will be more 00:46:21
cars, there will be more people. 00:46:25
But but everyone hates it, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to balance that because realistically. 00:46:32
Just it will get harder to drive. Hopefully it will get easier to take public transit, but but what will that look like in the 00:46:41
holiday? Holiday will be on the trailing end of that because we're not very dense. 00:46:46
Anyway, so that so those are my thoughts I don't know how to address people's concerns about. 00:46:52
Parking. 00:46:57
Accepting that very long term way in 30 and 40 years. 00:47:00
I hope you are driving. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not sure what that looks like because that's not a convincing thing 00:47:05
right now. I don't want a bunch of people parking on my Rd. 00:47:09
But, but how do we move towards that? I don't know. And I think it's an awkward interim stage we're in right now. Yeah, I've got 00:47:14
got transportation piece and leveraging, you know, our transportation lines. We have a bus route that goes from Central station, 00:47:22
Frontrunner of 45th, it goes across Highland Drive and then goes up through the village and then up 45th South and goes to the 00:47:30
park and ride. I think getting to EU from on the bus, taking the bus takes 2530 minutes. 00:47:38
Which is pretty reasonable. I live in Bountiful and I took the bus when I was going to you and it was faster to take the bus 00:47:47
rather than. 00:47:51
Rather than driving and paying for parking and dealing with all of that. So there might be some people, especially on our bus 00:47:56
lines, if there's an accessory unit that's close to that, people would think, yeah, I'm going to live in a successory unit. It's 00:48:03
small. I'm a student. I can afford to live in this backyard unit or in a basement unit. 00:48:09
And I can walk to the bus. 00:48:17
Maybe that reduces I don't have to have a car. That was same situation when I was in school. We only had one car, so I took the 00:48:19
bus, went to school, we had one car. 00:48:24
So it's it's a feasible thing for families, young couples. 00:48:29
Roommate situations. They might have just one car between them that they use for getting around and then taking the bus. So that 00:48:35
smaller unit does does limit sometimes. 00:48:41
Cars and people who are looking for rentals, they're going to look at parking or say, oh, I have two cars. Your Adu here only has 00:48:48
one parking spot, so I can't rent this because I can't park here. 00:48:54
You might have some people. You might have some people who are like, well, I have two cars and. 00:49:01
Venom grew lying on street parking, which then I have to move my car every 24 hours. That might not be something that they want to 00:49:08
do anyway. 00:49:11
So, so I mean just based on my experience and I've only been here for seven months, but that was a really big sticking point for 00:49:15
people. I'm reluctant to plan around that. I'm reluctant to say this is the sticking point, so let's. 00:49:23
Let's not do it, but it, but it does seem like a big. 00:49:32
Simple and just to clarify, Commissioner Gong, so your your primary concerns are kind of along the height restriction and the 00:49:37
parking requirement? 00:49:41
Or making sure there are height restrictions. I should say I I my my primary concerns are. 00:49:47
Yeah, How do you, how do you maintain a sense of privacy if we're allowing people to get much closer to the fence, which I think 00:49:53
we should, so that people can convert existing things? 00:49:58
One answer that is keep them low so that they're not wearing every background. I think that might be. 00:50:04
I appreciate and respect what you're saying, Commissioner. Gone. However, I purchased the home that I purchased here in. 00:50:09
Because of it has a large block or I'm just over 1/2 acre? 00:50:17
And we liked the outdoor living space that we have. 00:50:22
That currently my home is surrounded where my lot is. 00:50:26
Is kind of back in a cul-de-sac area and I am surrounded. I've got 8 doctors and neighbors. 00:50:30
They've got eight different backyards it. 00:50:37
Are around the. 00:50:41
And accessory dwelling in it. So all of my neighbors have detached garages. 00:50:43
And they're all within 3 feet of my property. 00:50:50
My the one of my neighbors has 2 accessories building units right now. 00:50:55
Dwelling units or just accessory buildings? 00:51:01
Accessory and building. 00:51:07
And I am going to tell you right now that it's going to change my whole home. 00:51:10
If they turn those into dwelling units and are allowed to that close to my property line my neighbor to the South of me has, it's 00:51:17
not even a foot away from my house. 00:51:22
Well, that's reason that he has sounds illegal. It's not even a threat. Obey from my home. 00:51:30
So you get that many neighbors that all have these accessory buildings. 00:51:36
And they're putting dwelling in it. Then I always said him and living in the middle of. 00:51:41
An apartment complex. I have neighbors surrounding me. 00:51:48
It changes the whole landscape, it changes. 00:51:53
And so there's got to be something that we can do. Like I said, I respect and appreciate what you said as far as. 00:51:57
Existing buildings, people should be able to convert those, be able to use their property. I respect that. 00:52:05
But we need to do it in a way. 00:52:12
You know, I bought my home for a reason and it was because of that privacy, because of the backyard that I have. 00:52:15
And to have that stripped away like that. 00:52:21
I'm not so willing to let that go and just to clarify this, Commissioner. 00:52:26
The eight properties you have surrounding your backyard, just out of curiosity, are they all quarter or half acre lots as well or 00:52:32
or do you have an idea or those smaller like R1 lots? 00:52:37
OK. 00:52:43
The two right next door to me are larger lots, but the ones in the back, they're smaller lots. 00:52:44
Gotcha. Yeah. And that makes that makes a lot of sense to me. So I think this is a big concern. 00:52:51
How do how might we allow this without all of a sudden be like AH? 00:52:55
Yeah, yeah. 00:53:01
So then and just to kind of clarify on your sticking point. 00:53:02
Like a lot size restriction where if it was just potentially the two to the sides of you and not so much the the row of tiny ones 00:53:07
behind you, obviously, I don't think your eight neighbors at any course of time are all going to want to build rental homes. But 00:53:13
you never know, right? I mean maybe maybe the ones running the tanning booth and salon want some extra income or whatever, but. 00:53:20
Internal flowing units in these properties. 00:53:31
That two of my backyard universities renters downstairs and upstairs. 00:53:35
And so if they're allowed to then turn the garage. 00:53:40
They can only have one, so they have to get rid of. Yeah. You can't do both, yeah. 00:53:46
I mean, then you've got this whole I know I'm surrounded now. That being said, I do want to ask this just because it came up to my 00:53:50
mind. 00:53:54
An internal Adu. 00:53:59
Could they build that as bonus space as an external Adu and then say, well, we're not using our internal dwelling unit as a 00:54:01
dwelling unit, that's just bonus space now and our external is the the the dwelling unit. Can they can they do that technically 00:54:07
they can change their internal units so that it's part of the main dwelling and then just have their one accessory unit be the 00:54:13
external one? 00:54:19
And then the suddenly noncompliant when they start renting out the basement to their nephew or whatever, right? Doesn't this 00:54:27
suggest that really we have much more moderate income housing in the city than we're giving ourselves credit for? 00:54:34
Because we're only recognizing the ones that we've legitimized or are formalized. But I think it's true that we, as in most 00:54:40
cities, you have lots of inform. 00:54:46
Modern income, that doesn't mean any local codes, right? I mean, we, we do have probably a significant number of people who are 00:54:52
renting out basements without an Adu license. So if they don't get an Adu license, we don't know that they're renting out their 00:54:58
basement. There's no way to know that we. 00:55:05
Enforce enforce enforcement and licensing. Then our numbers would go up and our problem solved. Maybe, I know. 00:55:13
You still have the issue of OK as a property. 00:55:23
Maybe I don't want an internal unit. Maybe I want something that's a little bit more private. Maybe I have a larger family that's 00:55:27
taking up space and in my house now I want to build a one bedroom unit for. 00:55:33
A college student or for a single professional, and I totally get that. I would love to be able to do that. You can do that. 00:55:40
I just feel like there needs to be. 00:55:50
A minimum size I feel like by letting people do it. 00:55:56
Yeah. So we do have a maximum accessory building footprint. You could alter that to be even smaller for an external Edu. 00:56:00
And right now it's it scales based off of the property size. 00:56:10
I think it starts at 707. Fifty square feet. Did you remember 750? I thought it was an 800. 00:56:17
That's like a percent of the lot size or something, isn't it? 00:56:24
Generally you're also going to have your structures are going to be regulated by your lot coverage, so. 00:56:28
Structures can only cover a percentage of your property, so even with our conditional use permits. 00:56:36
You still can't go over the the lock coverage or a structure. Let me pull up those two tables for you to look at. 00:56:44
So if you were. 00:57:04
This is best set back distance for main structures, so if you wanted to limit. 00:57:06
Two Storey Adu or external Adu at all to be within the main footprint or area buildable area for a main structure this is what 00:57:13
you'd be looking at. For a smaller size property or 1/4 acre property, R110 zone at 20 feet or a rear property set back. 00:57:23
Of your career. 00:57:34
And then your sides are dependent on the arcing side. So that's that's the step back you would have if you wanted to limit 00:57:38
external dwelling units to be only allowed within the the building footprint of. 00:57:44
The main structure is there. A minimum set back between the main structure and the potential EAUD building code is 5 feet. It's 00:57:52