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Event transcript
Will go ahead. It is 607 February 6/20/24. We'll start the official holiday City Planning Commission meeting. We have 4 items on 00:00:00
the agenda this evening. A general plan amendment, a cross. 00:00:07
Text amendment and another text amendment. 00:00:15
And we are absent 2 commissioners. We are also absent our City Council or our City Legal Counsel. 00:00:19
With us this evening, but as a reminder to the Commissioners, any motions made this evening do require a four out of five vote to 00:00:28
pass as favourable, and I have asked Commissioner Cunningham if he would read our opening statement, which is required of all 00:00:34
public meetings. So Commissioner Cunningham. 00:00:41
The chair shall call the meeting to order at the appropriate time, greet the people and read the following statement. 00:00:48
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen for Whose? 00:00:54
Is to review land use plans and offer special studies. 00:00:59
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map and ordinance changes. 00:01:02
And approved conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:01:08
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:01:11
Rather acts on applications as they are. 00:01:15
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except in publicly noticed meetings. 00:01:19
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location. 00:01:23
The nature of the neighborhood. Existing structures and uses related to the proposed change are. 00:01:28
Decisions are based on observations. 00:01:33
Recommendations from the professional planning staff. 00:01:36
The city's general plan. 00:01:39
Zoning relevances and other reports. 00:01:40
By all verbal and written comments and by evidence submitted, all of which are part of the public record. 00:01:43
Excellent. Thank you, Commissioner. 00:01:50
And so with that we have our first item on the agenda this evening, which is the Moderate Income Housing Plan. This is a state 00:01:52
required amendment and I believe we have city staff. 00:01:58
New city staff member and Francis Garcia who's prepared a presentation for us on this to help us understand and what is outlined 00:02:05
in this. So unless other city staff needs to touch on that first and I think we're going to turn it over to you and let you take 00:02:11
us from there. 00:02:17
Great. Good evening, everyone. 00:02:23
So First off, I'm gonna actually just do a little background on on the bill itself. In March 2022, the state passed House Bill 462 00:02:25
requiring all municipalities to take additional measures to ensure the local planning efforts focus on removing barriers 00:02:32
preventing construction. 00:02:39
And preservation of housing at moderate income levels. 00:02:46
So the bill provides a menu of 20. 00:02:49
Strategies that municipalities can choose from. 00:02:53
In addition to adopting the strategies, we're required to develop actions and measurable tasks to implement those actions for each 00:02:56
strategy and provide an annual report on steps the city is taking to make affordable housing more attainable and show meaningful 00:03:02
progress. 00:03:07
So I'll give a little information on moderate income and how it's defined. 00:03:13
As how do household incomes making less than 80% of the county meet area medium income level, which is 106,000? That's the county 00:03:18
Salt Lake County Medium Income. 00:03:24
So in terms of persons and family. 00:03:31
One person in a family can only make 59,400 and they're considered moderate income. If there's two in the family, it's 67850. 00:03:35
370-6350 and four individuals in the family is 84 eight. 00:03:45
For the purpose of the plan affordable housing refers to. 00:03:52
That a moderate income can afford without paying more than 30% of their income in rent. 00:03:56
Or to their mortgage, for example, a family earning an annual income of 84,800. 00:04:03
Anything more than 25,440 per year. 00:04:09
Which is 2120 per month spent on rent or mortgage, would put them in an unaffordable situation. 00:04:14
So out of 11,846 units here in holiday, approximately 25% of families spend more than the recommended 30%. 00:04:23
Of the income housing. 00:04:33
A significant. 00:04:35
Of our rent burden situations that we have here in high mortgage. 00:04:37
So looking again at 4138 households. 00:04:42
That are actually making less than the moderate income. So that's about 35% of holiday residents that are moderate income or 00:04:47
below. 00:04:51
Of our. 00:04:56
So our approved plan from February 23, the city chose 6 strategies. 00:04:58
Looking at those six strategies, three of them have been completed, so we can't report on them anymore. 00:05:05
And if you look at your staff. 00:05:12
The red shows. 00:05:16
Action items and tasks. 00:05:20
That we're recommending adding to those strategies that have been approved or that have been completed so that we can continue 00:05:23
reporting on them. 00:05:27
So coming up with these tasks and these action items we were doing, we had. 00:05:33
Ongoing discussions with the Department of Workforce Services, and that's the state agency that was tasked. 00:05:41
To provide guidance on the statute to all municipalities. 00:05:48
So we went to them, had conversations on an ongoing basis, what's needed, what can we do so that we can stay in compliance on an 00:05:52
annual basis. 00:05:58
So after researching and getting that guidance from the state, we're proposing an additional 3 strategies to be added. The three 00:06:04
strategies will help us show that meaningful progress that they're looking for. 00:06:10
In achieving our action items. 00:06:16
And proposing additional action items and tasks for the. 00:06:19
So we don't necessarily have to. 00:06:24
Have something new each year, but we do have to report on progress on. 00:06:27
An action item or a. 00:06:33
So we definitely want to be able to be eligible for funding, so we want to report on at least 5 strategies. 00:06:35
And. 00:06:43
Strategies. Not three tasks in one strategy. That's five strategies. So if we wanted to do 5 without making any changes, we. 00:06:44
Because we only have three left that haven't been completed. 00:06:54
So we need additional strategies and we need additional tasks. 00:06:58
Or action items added to those. 00:07:03
Strategies that have been completed so that we can continue to report on. 00:07:05
Does that make sense? I think I follow you and to help me because I'm a visual person, if we could maybe scroll back up to page 2 00:07:10
of. 00:07:14
There we go, the blue bubble infographic, we'll call it. So which of these strategies that we're looking at on this page? Have we 00:07:18
then already completed, if you can call them out by letter, since it looks like we got most of the Alphabet strategy. 00:07:26
E And that was to create or allow for and reduce regulate regulations related to ADUS. 00:07:34
That one has been completed because our action was to conduct a public engagement study to determine hindrances. 00:07:43
And that was done with passing the Adu ordinance back in 20. 00:07:50
But we don't have any additional. 00:07:55
Tasks associated with that strategy that we can continue showing progress. 00:07:57
On ad use like the discuss. 00:08:03
Proposing that additional. 00:08:07
Task which is monitoring. 00:08:09
Quarterly Adu. 00:08:11
Sending annual letters to residents. 00:08:14
You know homeownership rights related to Adu doing an educational type of campaign. 00:08:17
Doing those type of things if those are three different tasks so I only have to report on one. 00:08:24
Under that strategy for us to be in compliance. 00:08:29
So if we add three, that's a menu of items that I can choose from. 00:08:32
To report on, we don't have to report on all three of those tasks. 00:08:36
We can just report on one under that action item. Does that make sense? 00:08:41
So we can do up to three, but if we've reported on one then it's considered complete. Am I understanding that right under that one 00:08:47
strategy? 00:08:51
We need 5 to get funded or eligible for funding. 00:08:55
So we have to have. 00:09:00
5 strategies to report on Right under each strategy we have a variety of tasks and action items. 00:09:01
So we can choose five strategies that we want to report on. 00:09:09
Pick an action item. Pick a task. 00:09:13
Report on that. We're done for that strategy. Pick the next strategy. 00:09:16
We have 3 action items and a ton of tasks. Pick one action item, one task report on that. That's two strategies we report. 00:09:21
And then so forth. OK, so at this point number. 00:09:31
Completed that process and there's no revisiting. That one's done. Put a nail in it, right? Right. Unless we add those. 00:09:35
Action items and tasks that I'm proposing. OK, in your report, OK And Commissioner Prince, you had a question. Yes. So in these 00:09:43
different strategies, there are several blocks that are new items. So if we add, if we choose to recommend adding all of these 00:09:50
items. 00:09:56
We don't have to report on all of them to the state at once. It's just getting a whole bunch of things for you to do to choose 00:10:03
from over the next, over the course of the next couple of years and we can report on it on an annual basis, say monitor quarterly 00:10:09
82 Adu production. 00:10:14
Because we put quarterly there as a measurable timeline. 00:10:20
I can report on it this year, I can report on it next year and so. 00:10:25
Moving forward. 00:10:29
It's it doesn't. It doesn't say that you can't. You have to stop at that point. I had to put that timeline in there. 00:10:31
Thank you. 00:10:38
Commissioner Fullant. 00:10:40
We don't have to stick a fork in strategy E at this point, if I understand correctly. All we have to do what all what? One 00:10:43
possibility is that we add some tasks to strategy E that would enable us to report further with respect to those tasks. Is that 00:10:51
correct? Correct. OK. Thank you. 00:10:59
So is there? And I guess as I'm looking at this bubble, again, just being a visual guy, like there's there's eight things here, we 00:11:07
need 5. 00:11:11
Or 9 including the center 1 excuse me. 00:11:16
Right. Am I counting that? Right, There's nine total. Oh, OK. Yeah. All right. I can't read, sorry. Anyway, there's there's 00:11:20
definitely more than five, right, because that's how many fingers I can count. So is, is there a reason why we want to take on the 00:11:27
additional tasks or why we're putting so much emphasis on putting these extra items in there? Is it just because we're really gung 00:11:33
ho about making sure that we're covering the 35% of our residents that fall into that moderate income bucket or is there 00:11:39
additional funding if we do more than five? 00:11:45
No, it just we're doing them anyway. 00:11:52
So. 00:11:56
Get credit for it. 00:11:58
And it will be just easier all around to report on things. 00:11:59
Either planning to do. 00:12:04
We're doing them more early, OK? 00:12:06
And I and my for my own edification on why I'm asking this is it's just I'm not a lazy person. I consider myself efficient and so 00:12:09
if I don't have to tie my hands down to do more than I have to, I feel that gives me more liberty to make sure that I'm able to 00:12:15
accomplish everything else better. So I just I That's why I wanted to understand why we're looking at, you know, implementing 8 00:12:21
strategies now where 6 used to be. 00:12:26
If there's some benefit to the city in in taking on two more things that were lashing ourselves to, if that makes sense, Well, the 00:12:34
benefit is that we have more to choose from. 00:12:38
And we're not stuck on. 00:12:43
A couple of items if we are already considering doing some items. 00:12:46
I was I hired on to to provide some additional programs and additional items. 00:12:51
For our. 00:12:57
Then why not get credit for it and be in compliance at the same time? 00:12:58
OK. 00:13:02
That makes sense to me. I just like I said, I like to know the why behind the water, otherwise I don't make very good decisions 00:13:04
sometimes. So I appreciate that explanation and sampling it down for me. 00:13:08
So with that, were there other questions on this or did you want to continue through the program and I'll quit interrupting you? 00:13:13
OK, go ahead. 00:13:22
So basically adding those strategies there. 00:13:24
We're adding three additional, so we're going to have 9 totals. 00:13:28
If it's. 00:13:32
And like I said we're reporting on an annual basis hopefully for five is what we're our goal is. 00:13:35
And adding ongoing task. 00:13:42
We're focusing a lot on educational campaigns, providing resources for our residents. 00:13:46
On our. 00:13:53
Just showing that type of information. 00:13:55
That's what we were focusing on, sustainability. 00:13:58
Making housing more affordable by helping maintain the household. 00:14:01
By providing these programs and access to those programs. 00:14:06
So if you look at those tasks, that's what we're focusing on. 00:14:09
That's pretty much my report if you have any questions. 00:14:15
Any additional questions down here? 00:14:19
Commissioner Cunningham, you've been a little quiet. I just, I know you had some concerns in the work meeting, so. 00:14:23
You said we've decided. 00:14:32
Sorry. Yeah, I think the city has. 00:14:39
By hiring is a full blinding board. 00:14:43
Task you with fill. 00:14:46
I don't have any objection to any. 00:14:51
I just. 00:14:54
Taken on so many. 00:14:58
So early in the process. 00:15:00
Limited impact. 00:15:05
I'm glad we're going to actually count. 00:15:10
That meet the moderate income standard, which many of ours probably won't. 00:15:19
Just seems like. 00:15:26
We're going to exhaust this list of things to study and educate and all that. 00:15:30
And will still be a mandate to keep adding new tasks. 00:15:35
I guess I would fit better if we were spacing this kind of stuff out. 00:15:42
And I'll do some other entities where. 00:15:48
They're still trying to figure out. 00:15:51
Why we're going to start with. 00:15:53
We're doing really well. 00:15:56
Whose goals are to start doing this stuff in 2026? 00:16:01
Task list of the date. I don't want to complain about that. I think it's all good. I think it's all. 00:16:07
I just don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. 00:16:21
Making changes faster than we can see what the impact of the changes. 00:16:27
Makes sense, Commissioner. Font, you have something. 00:16:32
It just seems to me that we're getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves. 00:16:38
And if we're talking about a communications program, an educational campaigns. 00:16:42
Maybe I haven't been around long enough to know what's been done up to this point. 00:16:51
But perhaps some of that could involve reaching out to our residents. 00:16:56
Who have homes on half acre lots and and larger and communicating with them the opportunity to build. 00:17:03
EADS. 00:17:12
Rather. 00:17:15
Looking. 00:17:17
Homeowners with. 00:17:19
On smaller lots. 00:17:21
And putting Eadus on smaller lots, in other words, rather than changing our zoning. 00:17:23
So that we increase our density that's that's just such. 00:17:31
That seems to be such a dramatic change in the character of Holiday and maybe we need. 00:17:37
To crawl before we walk here and if we're talking about educational campaigns and communication efforts. 00:17:44
Maybe we reach out to the homeowners. 00:17:52
Who already have the opportunity to build Eadus. 00:17:56
And try to increase our. 00:18:00
Moderate income housing opportunities that way. 00:18:04
Before we rezone and and allow these structures on smaller lots. 00:18:07
And just to clarify, Commissioner Fonder, you kind of jumping into item four with the text amendment around the EA to use? 00:18:15
Because this the strategy being presented in this evening's item one is, I believe those EAD us are just one of these nine 00:18:24
components, is that right? 00:18:30
So are you saying you feel good about this, other than you're concerned with the EADU factor of it? 00:18:37
I'm kind of putting them all together. OK. So one of them, those issues is kind of a major hurdle for you in looking at this as a 00:18:43
whole. OK, That makes sense. All right. Thank you for clarifying. Commissioner Prince, did you have so I. 00:18:51
I I would have to have a different take on this that I really like the idea of having. 00:18:59
Million different strategies. 00:19:05
5 subparts or I'm picking five out of the air that give you a lot of different things to try at different times. And so I. 00:19:08
I can actually see the utility in. 00:19:18
Really expanding the portfolio of tools that you have to work through. 00:19:21
To try and accomplish getting more moderate income housing in holiday, which is a huge. 00:19:25
Herculean. 00:19:33
Sisyphus type task if we. 00:19:35
Mythological, honest. But you know, I I think you're going to need every. 00:19:38
Every trick in your basket to I'm mixing all my metaphors tonight, so I I actually really like. 00:19:45
Having a lot of things to choose from and and knowing that we're. 00:19:52
Tasked with doing all of them at once and accomplishing them in 2024 makes me feel better. 00:19:57
And then we're not tasked to do. We don't have to do all of them. 00:20:04
We could just say, you know, that doesn't quite work for us right now. 00:20:08
And we don't have to report. 00:20:12
But maybe it'll work for us in a couple years. 00:20:15
And it's there for us to use. 00:20:18
So it's a mothball strategy if if needed be OK. 00:20:20
I like that, Commissioner Barrett. Yes, I think I agree with what's been said. 00:20:26
I think with the new housing manager. 00:20:32
Moves a lot of things forward that maybe in the past wasn't going. So it may appear that we're being overly aggressive here, but I 00:20:34
think you've done a great job to me. I like a comprehensive strategic plan because it lays out things that the city can then 00:20:40
anticipate. 00:20:45
And health for as far as future funding CDBG. 00:20:51
That's the position you want to be. 00:20:56
I would rather be at this point. 00:20:59
Trying to get all the work done to qualify for those things in the future. So congratulations and I appreciate the work you've put 00:21:02
in on this. 00:21:05
Excellent. And I did fail, which I do sometimes, so we don't have council here to yell at me. But this is a public hearing, so I 00:21:10
do need to open this up for members of the public that have any comments. 00:21:15
Specifically around item one, which is the Moderate Income Housing plan. So if anyone's here this evening and would like to come 00:21:21
up and address the Planning Commission with comment around this item. 00:21:27
You are welcome to do so. Now we just ask you to state your name and address. 00:21:35
And doesn't look like we have any takers on that. So going once, twice and we will close the public hearing on this. 00:21:39
And with that, I think we've kind of had some good discussion around this as far as my thoughts go and just kind of to circle back 00:21:47
to Commissioner Fonts concern because the text amendment EADU section is not something that we're approving with this plan. It is 00:21:53
simply just a strategy within it which we can say, yeah, we don't like that we're going to, we're going to approve just flower 00:21:59
pots and that's all we're going to do around EADUS for now. 00:22:05
It doesn't really impact it to say this is going to be a tool in the toolbox that we can use for the strategies we're trying to 00:22:12
track and implement. 00:22:16
But I do understand the concerns that you've brought and will likely bring again as we get into item number four this evening. So 00:22:21
with that said, unless there's any other questions or thoughts Commissioners have around this item, I think we are at a point 00:22:26
where we could probably entertain a motion on this. 00:22:31
Is anyone prepared to do that by? This is Commissioner Prince. I'm prepared to make a motion this evening. 00:22:38
I motion to forward a favorable recommendation to the City Council to approve an amendment to the General Plan, Moderate Income 00:22:43
Housing Plan, Chapter 5, based on the following findings. 00:22:49
Compliance with the Utah State Legislature bill HB 462 Compliance with the City's Long Range Housing goals. 00:22:55
And compliance with the state's reporting requirements. 00:23:04
This Commissioner, Baron, I'll second that. All right. We have a motion and it's been seconded. We'll call for a vote. We'll start 00:23:09
down here. Commissioner Flaunt, Commissioner Cunningham. 00:23:14
Commissioner Prince, Commissioner Barrett and Chair Roach votes aye. So with that it passes unanimously and thank you for the 00:23:20
discussion on that. Thank you. 00:23:24
Thank you, Anne. Great job. 00:23:29
All right. And with that, we will move on to item number 2 on our agenda. And will that be Commission or excuse me? 00:23:32
Some evening will that be city staff Carrie Marshall will be presenting on that will invite up. 00:23:41
Always forget what the power button is. 00:23:54
All right. Thank you, Chair Roach. 00:23:56
So item number two is a cross slope exception for a vehicular access to a new residence that is going across a slope that is 00:23:58
greater than 30%. 00:24:03
This responsibility of approving A vehicular access across a slope is up to the Planning Commission to decide. 00:24:09
Included in the staff report was a report by the city engineer who's reviewed the site, has a good purview of what the slope is, 00:24:20
and has specific conditions that are outlined in the recommendation in the staff report. 00:24:27
The Historically the area is a gravel pit. The slopes were created from gravel pit operations creating a Rd. 00:24:37
Irregardless the our code doesn't define what if. 00:24:46
The Planning Commission can only approve a slope that's man made or natural. So in this case it's a man made slope that is before 00:24:52
you that. 00:24:56
Is it within your purview to either approve? 00:25:02
Not approved. 00:25:05
I'll have the applicant come up and he can explain some of the site and where that slope is at. Excellent. Thank you very much. 00:25:07
And with that, we'll invite the applicant up. At this time, it's nicker Amber Phillips here. 00:25:13
Hello. 00:25:25
Do we have pictures or what are we going off of? 00:25:27
I have a few Internet. 00:25:31
Just please make sure you talk into the mic so our city recorder can hear you. 00:25:33
OK. 00:25:37
Well, on the slope, are we going off the? 00:25:43
Is that what we're going off of? 00:25:46
Yeah. 00:25:51
So the. 00:26:06
Wasn't it? Wasn't there. 00:26:08
Start digging a little early, right? Carrie Houston saw it. 00:26:11
I don't know how to explain it that how. So where we dug it out, we created that slope. It wasn't there. There was a road coming 00:26:16
in. 00:26:20
Like I don't know if you can tell where the access point is. 00:26:24
There was a road coming across. 00:26:27
Can I go point at it? Yeah, so the original. 00:26:29
Came down right here. 00:26:33
And the new proposed Rd. is going right there. 00:26:36
And so this was all drivable. 00:26:39
Created. 00:26:42
When we were. 00:26:43
What can you say? So you push the dirt around and now there's a slope there. 00:26:50
That slope. And then they did the top. Oh, and the topo showed it as a slope. But there's been some site visits to confirm there's 00:26:55
not a slope where the driveway is going to be. 00:27:00
And I believe the city engineer made the site visit and it's just making sure that your. 00:27:08
Following the correct I'm not going to get into the technical jargon because it ain't my wheelhouse, but build it in a way where 00:27:15
the driveway is not going to sink into that slope, right, Exactly. OK And with that, Commissioners, did we have any questions for 00:27:20
the applicant? 00:27:25
At this time, OK. We'll go ahead and have you sit down then. Thanks so much for helping us with that And we will go ahead and open 00:27:31
up the public hearing if there are any comments about the slope and the driveway and concerns with that. 00:27:36
No public comment at this time. All right, we will close the public hearing on that and with that commissioners during the. 00:27:43
Staff report it was just noted that you know we want to make sure that there is the. 00:27:52
Inspection before the footprint is poured for this driveway, if we are going to make a favorable recommendation on that, you mean 00:28:00
footings, footing, Excuse me? 00:28:05
It's an evening. That being said, were there any Commission or questions from our Commissioners about this that needed further 00:28:11
discussion? 00:28:15
There's no need for a retaining wall anywhere. 00:28:19
That would be something that the city engineer is reviewing. 00:28:25
This is Commissioner Prince, I'll just state that I went out to see it because I was having a really hard time looking at all of 00:28:31
the pictures and. 00:28:35
Making sense of it. 00:28:39
As I drove in and drove right along where the driveway is going to be, I didn't. 00:28:42
Notice anything? 00:28:47
Even had me really slightly concerned. I sort of wondered why I was. 00:28:49
But I think it's important that we cross. 00:28:53
T's and dot the IS but I. 00:28:56
You know, I could see what the applicant was talking about with moving the dirt. 00:28:58
Earlier than maybe should have been moved, but you know that's OK. And and. 00:29:02
So you didn't feel fear for your life? I had No Fear. I had No Fear. My my car did just fine. And so I. 00:29:08
I mean it's important that we follow regulations and. 00:29:17
Make sure that everyone's being compliant and all that stuff but. 00:29:20
I was not nearly as concerned after visiting as I was when I was reading the report and thinking what in the world is going on? 00:29:23
That's so excellent. All right, well, I appreciate the first hand account report to that and. 00:29:29
With that, if there's no other points of discussion around this matter, I think we're we're ready for. 00:29:36
And that this does require the approval of the director right under the ordinance. 00:29:43
OK. And and it says in here that staff recommends approval. I assume that means you you recommend approval and the city engineer 00:29:50
recommends approval, correct? When it when it looks at director approval, approval from the director is is a response from the 00:29:56
TRC, the technical review committee which the engineer is a part of? 00:30:03
Thank you. 00:30:11
Good point of clarification. 00:30:13
All right. So with that, Commissioners, does anyone? 00:30:15
Feel brave and ready to make a motion on this. 00:30:18
This is Commissioner Prince. I'll go for it, all right. 00:30:28
All right. 00:30:32
This is Commissioner Prince. I recommend that we approve the. 00:30:35
I'm looking for the the proper address the application by Nick and Amber Phillips at 6002 Tolkat Woods Lane for. 00:30:40
30% slope. I'm not quite sure what the right term is to use. 00:30:52
Cross slope, cross slope. 00:30:58
For vehicular access, there we go. Thank you, based on the following findings that the area has been identified as a slow hazard. 00:31:00
No other location for access is feasible or available. 00:31:09
No segment of the access that will cross slopes between 30 to 50% exceeds 100 feet in length. 00:31:13
The cumulative length of the individual segments or increments that will cross slopes between 30 to 50% does not include exceed 00:31:19
10% of the total. 00:31:24
Of the private vehicular access. 00:31:29
And this condition is all. This approval is also conditional upon the following. 00:31:32
All recommendations within the geotechnical report will be addressed by the applicant property owner, specifically regarding 00:31:38
inspections by CMT and the removal of undocumented fill beneath the building footprint. 00:31:44
The applicant shall comply with standards listed in the holiday city code sections 13.76 point 300 and 13.76 point 700, including 00:31:51
review and inspection by the City engineer. 00:31:57
And that inspections by CMT will occur before footings are poured. 00:32:05
All right, we have a motion on this. Do we have a second? 00:32:11
I'll second it. Commissioner. Font Commissioner, Font seconds. All right. We'll call for a vote. We'll start down here this time. 00:32:15
Commissioner Barrett. Commissioner Prince. Commissioner Cunningham. Aye. And Chair Roche votes. Aye. So with that, we will approve 00:32:21
that. And good luck getting the driveway all sorted out. Thank you very much. 00:32:27
All right. And that will take us to item number three on the agenda, which is the, excuse me text amendment. 00:32:34
Round quasi public uses in the C2 zone, specifically in this case around a church. 00:32:43
And we will look to city staff to once again give us a report on this. 00:32:50
Thank you, Commissioner. 00:33:00
Our chair. 00:33:02
Proper titles. 00:33:04
So this application is for allowing quasi public use, which includes church. In our work meetings, we went through the definition 00:33:07
of what quasi public includes. It's beyond just a church use, there's nonprofits. 00:33:14
Recreational nonprofit. I don't remember all the details that are in there, but there were there were a few. So approving A quasi 00:33:23
public use would include all of those uses as defined in our code. 00:33:29
This application is just for adding a public use within the C2 zone. The applicant specifically is looking at a property that's in 00:33:37
AC2 zone to bring their church congregation into. 00:33:43
So that is their request. Historically, all of the existing church uses within holiday. We have several properties that are 00:33:51
churches. They were zoned as public at the time of incorporation. Same thing with parks fire. 00:33:59
Other public buildings, so public property, all of that schools, they're all within that public zone. That's how Holiday chose to 00:34:07
manage. Public uses is just to put them all in public zones. So the process is for a property owner or for a church use. If they 00:34:14
wanted to look at other properties would be to either add. 00:34:22
Quasi public use to the allowed use table or to rezone a property specific to the public zone. Sometimes that's not always 00:34:30
feasible. There is an existing church within a C2 zone that was there at the time of incorporation, so they have a legal non 00:34:39
conforming status. That specific property was not rezoned to public because it is part of a larger commercial area. 00:34:48
So there's trade-offs. 00:34:57
Some difficulty with. 00:35:02
Rezoning some commercial properties as public going and then going back to commercial if if at that point in time they. 00:35:03
If the yeast changed in the future. 00:35:11
So that is what the basis is for, just adding the quasi public use to the allowed use table. 00:35:14
And I will have the applicant come and talk a little bit about their their application and oh, did you have a question? I have a 00:35:24
question once you've finished your sentence. OK, go ahead. I'm just wondering if you can give us just a 32nd. 00:35:31
Blip of What's AC2 property as opposed to? 00:35:40
C1 or RM zone or you know those different commercial zones that we run across. Yeah. So C2 is a higher intensity commercial use 00:35:44
the. 00:35:49
Strip mall area with the theater is C2, so typically you'll see those in higher intensity areas, major intersections, so the area. 00:35:55
Directly West on Highland. That whole strip mall area is C2 as well. 00:36:06
C1 is a lower intensity commercial use. You might see that in some smaller strip malls or one off kind of properties. 00:36:11
Closer toward residential areas typically is where you'd see AC1. 00:36:20
And then we have a few other zones that allow either office uses or kind of commercial or retail uses. 00:36:25
Offices obviously in the PO zone, which we've dealt with recently. So we're very familiar with PO's. 00:36:33
There's I was made aware that there's a church in an RM zone, so that possibly needs to go to PO zone, So there's. 00:36:40
There's probably you're as you're looking for church congregations who are looking for places to meet. You know, they're looking 00:36:49
at various properties where they can lease and right now they are. 00:36:55
Very limited in that. 00:37:01
Neighborhood commercial, I think is another one. 00:37:03
Is there any other zones that are kind of commercial? 00:37:07
I guess the holiday crossroads. 00:37:11
Zone and Holiday Village. But I don't think they have. I mean, none of those will have church uses in them. 00:37:13
So the discussion is specifically adding quasi public to the C2 zones. 00:37:21
That discussion could expand. 00:37:26
Outside of that. Or you could just leave that to City Council if you wanted to make whatever your recommendation based on that. 00:37:29
And then Kerry, if I just could quick clarification, what are the potentially more arduous steps for a prospective? 00:37:35
Church. If they're wanting to come into a property such as this to get that rezone, is it just a higher filing fee and the fact 00:37:44
there's a public meeting or is there a lot more involved than if it was already an allowable use that, you know, is it just really 00:37:50
the difficulty of a public meeting? I'm just curious what makes that rezone request so much more difficult, I think a degree of 00:37:56
the process. 00:38:02
Or the time frame once it goes to City Council. Typically your rezone is heard in one meeting and then it is decided on like in 00:38:10
the next meeting or if I. 00:38:15
Hearing is continued. 00:38:21
Further out than that. 00:38:24
Just a difference in approaches. I think that adding an allowed use is possibly a cleaner approach that would apply to future 00:38:28
applications as well, rather than limiting it to one specific property. 00:38:34
The applicant direction as to if they should apply for a rezone or. 00:39:15
Use change and that's the direction that we gave them as a preference. 00:39:20
Commissioner Baron, question just on this. I realized that this is a site specific almost because they are requesting this. 00:39:25
I think it helps the city though, to look at how this impacts all the C2 zones, which I don't think this is necessarily a problem 00:39:33
and maybe we should even broaden the number of uses. 00:39:39
Or zoning. Excuse me that this could be used. 00:39:45
In so to answer your question, I think this one's specific. 00:39:48
But it does help us in the overall scheme of allowing these in C2 because I'm seeing a lot of churches in very unique places and 00:39:53
you know, obviously churches have to go where they can afford space and that type of thing and sometimes it's always not conducive 00:39:59
with. 00:40:05
The commercial zoning or an RM, that type of thing, so. 00:40:12
In your discussions with the applicant and maybe just people who come in and talk to you. 00:40:16
Have you had other conversations that maybe we should broaden how many of the zonings that we should include in this right going 00:40:22
off of my discussion that I had with the church that's in an RM zone today, it was, you know, they. 00:40:29
They're looking for just a smaller space, an office space that they can help these out. Some of these congregations are smaller in 00:40:37
size, so they don't need a large space. 00:40:42
You know, some of our existing public spaces may not be fitting to their needs or existing properties that are zoned as public. 00:40:47
So considering maybe some congregation size, largely what you're looking at is parking. If they meet parking standards based off 00:40:55
of how much space they're taking up, then some of those other properties that are either Office or C1 or C2 may be appropriate 00:41:01
zones as well. 00:41:07
OK. I just thought the city may initiate this in the future. 00:41:14
And we should probably refund these guys their money because it does. I think that does help the city overall because of. 00:41:19
You know, placement of a lot of these unique type of uses. So thank you for that. Are we ready for that? I think we're ready for 00:41:25
the applicant. We'll do it picking at you. All right. Thanks, Gary. 00:41:30
And if you state neighbors, hi, good evening. My name is David Billings. I'm an attorney at Fabian Vanguard. I represent the 00:41:38
applicant and help fill out a little statement that's in there. And so I'm happy to answer any questions the Commission has. 00:41:45
And I was attended the work session, so I'm happy to address those concerns too, in whatever order. 00:41:53
Question would like all right with that, Commissioners, do we have questions for the answer Your preference is whatever gets it 00:41:59
done the quickest. 00:42:03
And. 00:42:09
I think you heard our at least some of our concern and my concern is that. 00:42:12
I have no objection and would vote, you know, tonight if it was on, you know, to have a church there. I just think that there's a 00:42:17
bigger question about all the other uses that we'd be dealing with in AC2 zone. None of the interested parties would have any idea 00:42:24
that this was happening tonight. They saw a church request. 00:42:30
And that and I don't think they even you know, and they I think this is worthy of a lot more discussion. 00:42:39
And that, but I think your goal is to do that as quickly as possible. I understand that and that I don't think it would take that 00:42:46
long to put it back on a as a as a zoning request, but. 00:42:53
How? Is there any urgency? I mean, obviously they're looking and they'd like to be here and I think we'd love to have them. 00:43:01
The urgency is that we're in the middle of a transaction and there's two different transactions. One is we are closing on the 00:43:11
place that we're selling in West Valley. 00:43:15
The other is we're trying to buy this location and in this location is contingent upon. 00:43:21
Getting this approval otherwise we don't want to give them our money, right? So if we. 00:43:26
And under the contract, Mountain America does not want to wait around forever to find out what the city is going to do. So they 00:43:32
put in a hard cap on the amount of time we had to find out from the city one way or the other. 00:43:39
And that not doesn't just include this zoning issue in the text amendment, it also includes the parking. 00:43:47
And any other thing that we might need to get city approval for. 00:43:55
So that's the urgency from our and then so when I reached out to staff and said, you know I checked every box I could possibly 00:43:58
think of and said. 00:44:03
You know what should I do? I think you could fit under multiple things. 00:44:09
And the suggestion was this is the cleanest, most efficient way to do. 00:44:14
And then when I started looking into this, I found. 00:44:20
Other municipalities in the. 00:44:26
To Commissioner, I can't remember his Princess or Bernard's point. 00:44:30
They allow churches in pretty much every zone. 00:44:35
And they do that probably on 1st Amendment grounds. 00:44:40
But also. 00:44:43
You know, if they want to be there, they want to be there and you already have non conforming uses in multiple zones and there 00:44:45
really isn't much of A harm. And to your other point about. 00:44:50
Commissioner Cunningham, your point about unintended consequences. 00:44:56
My response would be None of those cities have noticed an upsurge in nonprofit acts, throwing or whatever, And we already have. 00:45:01
Permitted P. 00:45:13
Embedded in neighborhoods where somebody could come along with that such a nonprofit and buy an old church building and. 00:45:17
Start their nonprofit and you haven't. 00:45:24
Members of Holiday City come to you and say. 00:45:28
Make them stop. They're too noisy or. 00:45:32
Their axes are too loud. 00:45:35
So I think. 00:45:36
If that concern happens in the future, you can address it at that time. But right now, what before what is before the Commission 00:45:40
is simply adding the letter P into a box. 00:45:45
And what that will do is let us close on this sale and. 00:45:51
What I'd like to point out also is. 00:45:58
We are facing a busy St. which is probably why it was labeled C2, but on the other side of this lot. 00:46:02
Is a. 00:46:09
And so that is also kind of consistent. 00:46:11
The city's historic practice. 00:46:14
P zones being nestled in neighborhoods because that's where churches were when the city got incorporated. So I don't. And there's 00:46:17
going to be a development that you are all very well familiar with from many, many meetings and fights. 00:46:23
Right across the street. So I I think it isn't gonna really affect the master plan or? 00:46:30
That development and in fact, I think it's going to enhance the city. 00:46:38
It avoids, you know, it opens the city up more for more religious freedom by having more places where churches can be. 00:46:42
But with that I'll shut up because I get paid by the minute. So. 00:46:51
Well, now it was enjoy the the aesthetic of having a church directly across the street from a bar. I just I I find something 00:46:58
appealing about that anyway, just for one stop shopping. 00:47:03
That being said, Commissioners, any other? 00:47:09
Questions for the applicants representative at this time. 00:47:13
OK. We'll go ahead and have you sit down. Thank you. Thank you and. 00:47:16
I can define the OR add in the definition of quasi public, so I have that pulled up. 00:47:20
It's a use that is operated by a private, nonprofit, educational, religious, recreational, charitable or philanthropic 00:47:26
institution. 00:47:32
Which primarily serves the general public. So I think there are a lot of things that could fall into. 00:47:38
I believe like an application like Big Brothers Big Sisters or another nonprofit organization who's maybe doing some recreational. 00:47:44
Nonprofit use, outdoor nonprofit use. So there's a potential that when you're looking at what those uses expand into, sure, people 00:47:53
can get creative and find ways around it, but it also creates spaces for nonprofits to exist within. And there are a lot of. 00:48:01
Really great nonprofits in our state. 00:48:10
And John, did you have something I'll ad Lib here? 00:48:13
The decision whether or not to apply a rezone here or a text amendment. 00:48:19
From the staff's point of view. From my point of view, this is a long range planning. 00:48:25
Effort. 00:48:29
A public use zone. 00:48:31
And a major corridor on your highland. 00:48:34
Transit plan. 00:48:38
Is an economic driver. 00:48:40
It's not a quasi public driver. 00:48:42
A rezone to P would forever lock that zone down for quite a considerable amount of time. Time which? 00:48:45
Who knows? From my point of view, I'm my job is to think 50 to 80 years down the road. 00:48:52
We have an applicant right now that's looking for a use immediately. 00:48:59
So a rezone to P definitely would not comply with your general plan. 00:49:03
Because of the nature of this location as a commercial center, your most intense commercial zone on Highland Drive. 00:49:08
Therefore, adding this use as a supplemental use to the intensity of C2 makes more sense than a reason that was That was our point 00:49:18
of view. 00:49:22
Appreciate it. It's a good comment. 00:49:29
To put into perspective, and with that before I forget, because I have the tendency, we will go ahead and open the public hearing 00:49:32
on this if there are any members of the public that are here to speak. 00:49:39
About the text amendment that's being discussed on Agenda item 3, feel free to come up and give us your name and address if you 00:49:48
would. 00:49:52
And we'll go ahead and give a minute once, twice. 00:49:57
Go ahead, Sir. 00:50:03
Good evening. 00:50:07
I carry was my wife who calls me on the phone earlier. If you get your name and address, please. Hi Mark, my name is Martin 00:50:09
Cocker. 00:50:13
COCKE. 00:50:17
7631 Lark Meadow Cove. 00:50:19
Midvale. 00:50:24
84047. 00:50:26
And just just a quick comment in support of what you're trying to do tonight. I, my wife and I are both sponsors of the Saint 00:50:34
Germain Foundation. 00:50:39
I am activity and we have a. 00:50:45
Church per SE at 5200 S and Holiday Dr. and we've been there since 2017. 00:50:48
And just today, coincidentally, we found out we're in an RM zone and. 00:50:57
So we, you know, we. 00:51:03
Are aware of this discussion with, you know. 00:51:08
Changing things to as so that churches. 00:51:12
I exist in a commercial zone, but we're also interested. 00:51:16
That the further the idea further expands to all zones if possible. 00:51:19
It is. It would be. 00:51:26
For us to move it would be a, you know, a little bit of a problem for sure and. 00:51:29
So I think, you know, that's that's where we're at. 00:51:34
It sounds like you're it sounds like the board is supportive of engaging in that discussion in the future and. 00:51:38
We would certainly support that and appreciate. 00:51:45
My wife also wrote Carrie an e-mail today and I I noticed in her e-mail, she said. 00:51:50
Currently we are in an RM zone, which I believe was grandfathered in when holiday was incorporated. 00:51:58
And anyway so just wanted to make you aware of that and certainly supportive of the discussion in the amendment tonight. So you 00:52:05
support the the text amendment and would are are seeking that it might also be expanded into others then for your just want to 00:52:13
make sure I'm clarifying and understand where you're going with that. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. 00:52:20
The zoning that we changed, the PO. 00:52:28
So individual properties can choose to rezoned PO. The particular property where this church is located is currently zoned as RM, 00:52:32
but existing as office uses. They haven't. They applied to rezone. We approved the application to rezone that property. They 00:52:39
withdrew their application before it went to City Council for approval. 00:52:46
OK. So that's so they they still are retaining their room zone and their grandfathered uses in. 00:52:55
Within the room zone. 00:53:03
Did you have it? Did all that work? Did you appeal? And with that, if we have no other members of the public that wish to speak at 00:53:08
this time, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. 00:53:13
And Commissioners, we will now move to discussion about this. 00:53:19
For my personal take on it, I think. 00:53:24
Looking at this, current properties use as a church for the Korean Presbyterians. 00:53:29
I don't in my mind, envision this becoming a grand Korean Presbyterian temple 50 years from now. I would almost label it as a a 00:53:40
weigh station as they build their congregation, hopefully. 00:53:46
Be able to expand where they can maybe secure a larger property to accommodate more patrons. 00:53:54
And so I I don't necessarily know that this is gonna be there forever, Church, and I don't know if that's even what they're 00:54:02
interested in, but I think that makes sense with the text amendment. 00:54:07
Maybe to expand for that allowable use, just for the fact that it could become more transient in nature for some of the smaller 00:54:13
start up. 00:54:18
Congregations that are. 00:54:23
We would love to have it there for eons if it turns out to be successful, of course, but just as my mind kind of thinks as John 00:54:26
got the memories or the thought process going looking 3050 years from now. 00:54:33
So with that, I think it makes sense. I don't know if we want to. 00:54:41
Also incorporate other zones or consider other zones at this time, but I personally think that it it probably is not going to open 00:54:46
up the the Church of Acts throwing or Dennis's Rave Club anytime imminently. That's going to cause problems for us. 00:54:54
And I think if it did turn into something like that, there'd probably be enough public opinion. 00:55:03
Popping up about that that a quick reversal or adjustment might be needed in that case. 00:55:08
But with that, Commissioners. 00:55:14
Thoughts. 00:55:16
Mr. Cunningham, I want to give considerable deference to staff because that the long term plan is really the economic driver for 00:55:18
the city and that I. 00:55:23
I don't want to deal with anything broader than that tonight because I although I think it's worthy of a discussion about allowing 00:55:29
it in all zones. 00:55:33
Then I think we ought to define a church as something other than a. 00:55:37
I think a church and. 00:55:42
These other nonprofits are two different animals and we need to think about whether we want all those in all zones. And then I'm 00:55:44
willing to take the risk tonight to say, yeah, let's get the church in there and that and then have that other discussion probably 00:55:50
before the next application. 00:55:56
I think that's that makes sense Commissioner Barrett any well, I think the C2 zone does have a lot of impact just based on the 00:56:04
commercial nature of it. So I I agree with what you just said as far as the separation of the church from the recreational because 00:56:11
that does open up that's fairly broad too broad for my liking but I do appreciate where churches can be a part of most 00:56:17
neighborhoods and. 00:56:24
So that's the only reason I made the suggestion that maybe at some point staff may want to consider broadening. 00:56:32
Where this could be allowed and just make it either a conditional use so we could do the site plan review or something like that 00:56:38
but. 00:56:41
Other than that, I think this is a good proposal. 00:56:46
Mr. Prince, orphan, any comments? All right. Is anyone prepared to make a motion on this? 00:56:50
This is Commissioner Barrett I for. 00:56:58
I need to read this. Don't I think I suggest we forward a recommendation to the City Council to approve. 00:57:01
The text amendment application by the Korean Presbyterian Church of Utah, represented by David Billings, to amend Title 13, 00:57:08
Chapter 100.010 of the City of Holiday Land Use Code to allow quasi public uses as a permitted use within the C2 zone based upon 00:57:16
the following findings. 00:57:23
That quasi public uses within C2 zones accomplish the goals and purpose of the General Plan. 00:57:32
Second, they contribute to and enhance the overall community amenities and assets within the City of Holiday. 00:57:38
OK. Do you have a motion? This is Commissioner Prince. I'll second the motion. All right. And that's been seconded. So we'll call 00:57:45
for a vote. We'll come down here. Commissioner Font, aye. Commissioner Cunningham, aye. Commissioner Prince. Commissioner Baron 00:57:51
aye. And Chair Roche votes. Aye. So it passes unanimously. Appreciate the discussion on that and look forward to to seeing a new 00:57:57
establishment there. 00:58:02
Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. I do have just a brief question we've talked about this idea of. 00:58:08
Should looking at churches be considered? 00:58:16
In other zones in holiday and so I'm wondering just what guidance staff would give us. My my understanding is that the Planning 00:58:20
Commission acts when something is brought to us. 00:58:26
We don't initiate things and say we want you to go come up with a policy and bring it to us. 00:58:32
Is that understanding correct that the? 00:58:39
We're interested, but but it would have to come through staff or an applicant? Not necessarily. I think you're on the right track. 00:58:43
However, you can accompany your recommendation with a request to the council. 00:58:49
That this be looked into. 00:58:56
And then they can give staff direction to study it and then bring it back to the Planning Commission for discussion. Yes, 00:58:58
absolutely. That's sort of the proper way of handling. If you see something that's problematic in whatever you're doing, it may be 00:59:02
everything from a site plan to a text amendment. 00:59:07
You can always accompany your recommendation. 00:59:12
With sort of an addendum or with a note to the Council to request some extra steps, some studying. 00:59:15
Sure. 00:59:22
Is that something that we would have to? 00:59:25
Amend the motion that we've just made and approved. Or we could just do a secondary that wouldn't be in conjunction with your 00:59:28
motion. It would just be with a request to study this further. OK, All right. Thank you. And perhaps just going on record and 00:59:35
officially saying, you know, as a Planning Commission, we think that City Council should request further investigation into one, 00:59:43
maybe to alleviate Commissioner Cunningham and partly my own concerns of how. 00:59:50
How broadly creative someone could be getting with recreational nonprofit as a title to anything they wanted to do on any 00:59:58
property. Maybe defining a church, but then also looking to allow it to multiple zones that it would be applicable and. 01:00:06
Prevalent to be able to do so in the future. 01:00:15
Yeah. So if that's what you'd prefer, we can make note of that and send it on to the council. Yes, Then I I I would like that. So 01:00:18
do we need to make it official with some sort of a secondary motion or? I mean, we don't have our council to tell us what's 01:00:24
appropriate, but or can you guys just make a big note that we can just make a note of it? Yes, That the Planning Commission would 01:00:30
like to consider looking at the definition of churches and then where they would be, where they could be. 01:00:37
Permitted in within the various zones. So for the public record, Deer City Council post it. Note, please look at the churches a 01:00:44
little more please. Please ask us to review it as well. So OK. 01:00:50
Perfect. All right, we're having fun. We have one more. That's the text amendment. As discussed in our work meeting, we'll 01:00:58
probably spend roughly 25 to 30 minutes on this before we grow tired of it and then want to adjourn. 01:01:04
Before we move into that excitement, though, does anyone have any need for a break or are we OK to roll right into it? As long as 01:01:10
you don't mind if I stand up and stretch, then that's fine. OK We will quickly do our our knees and nose. Yeah, all right. We can 01:01:17
go ahead and get some blood flowing. And with that, we will roll forward into the text amendment. 01:01:24
For the accessory dwelling units that we have come to love, so much so with that. 01:01:32
Carrie Marsh. 01:01:38
You're on the spot. 01:01:41
Queuing things up so I have. 01:01:51
At least an appropriate showing on the screen there. All right. So this is continuation from our meeting last time we left the 01:01:53
public hearing open and with some direct points of changes to make from the previous iteration. 01:02:02
Those changes that were made. 01:02:11
Are reducing the OR limiting the Adus to lots 10,000 square feet or larger, tying parking standards that are within our code. 01:02:14
To the amount of bedrooms that are being added. 01:02:26
Let's see. 01:02:30
Limiting the height of an external accessory dwelling unit to a single level. There are some details there that can be. 01:02:32
Teased out a little bit. 01:02:41
Proposed as 12 feet, common in other cities is 16 feet for a single level, or 10 foot height. It's just to allow for a pitched 01:02:43
roof, essentially. 01:02:48
And let's see the other. 01:02:55
Change. I can't keep track of my changes on there. 01:02:59
Parking lot. 01:03:04
Oh, and then not allowing a second level being added on to existing accessory dwelling units or existing accessory buildings that 01:03:07
are being possibly converted. 01:03:12
Additional components that were added in is possibly looking at allowing accessory dwelling units or external accessory dwelling 01:03:19
units on corner lots just because of their unique lot configuration on 2 streets that may allow for. 01:03:27
An external dwelling unit, even if it is a smaller sized lot. 01:03:36
And then of course the the differences on height. 01:03:42
With that, and also considering a harder set back line for smaller lots specifically, so lots less than half an acre, you could 01:03:47
have a set limit. 01:03:53
You know at least 5 to 10 feet on a set back instead of the existing which is a 25% increase and I can pull up the the set back 01:04:00
table so you can see what that increases to. I think on 10,000 square foot lots it increases it if you were to go to 10 feet. 01:04:09
From. 01:04:19
I think 8 feet is about what it is. 01:04:21
86. 01:04:24
I'll pull it up. 01:04:25
So those are the, those are the proposed changes that we're looking at the Planning Commission and if if you wanted the simplest, 01:04:27
easiest you could just say. 01:04:31
Yeah, we only want to change this one component or you want to change no components of whatever your recommendation is to the City 01:04:36
Council. You can tailor that to whatever you feel is appropriate based off of kind of our discussions that we've had before. 01:04:44
And I think. 01:04:53
Do need to discuss the comments that each Commissioner made on the text that I emailed to each of you. I know that Commissioner 01:04:55
burnt, sorry. 01:05:01
That's OK. Yes, send some comments over. Commissioner Gong sent some comments over Commissioner Cunningham. He sent some comments 01:05:07
as well and Commissioner Font, so we can review those, each of you kind of on your own or as part of the discussion. 01:05:15
I think that is about all the changes that. 01:05:26
Mainly looking at, well with that questions, I mean all I can go sit down and we can go, yeah. So I think I'll have you sit down 01:05:29
for the ease and convenience because I don't think this is going to be a quick couple minutes. But that being said, this was a 01:05:35
continued public hearing item, if memory serves, it's still open, right? Yes. One other component too is that you asked to look 01:05:42
out how many parcels are half an acre or larger. 01:05:48
Essentially. 01:05:56
1400 around there, there's some variability in that based off of. 01:05:59
We have some parcels that. 01:06:06
A portion of them that is a separate parcel number but is not a buildable area. So commonly when we have a building permit, they 01:06:09
have to combine these lower tax parcels into one main parcel. 01:06:15
So there's likely some variability in that number. That is a pretty rough number of roughly 1400 parcels that are larger than half 01:06:22
an acre, so theoretically closer to 12 if we've got the exceptions of non buildable and other quasi weird things happening there 01:06:30
and looking at the zoning map, I think is pretty helpful as well. 01:06:38
Our larger zoned area is here. 01:06:47
You're going to have some outliers in all of the rest of the area that are larger than half an acre. 01:06:51
Obviously of your commercial, you're not going to have accessory dwelling units. So we're mainly looking at, you know here's all 01:06:58
the yellow which is R110, those are 10,000 square foot lot minimums. 01:07:03
Some of those properties may be slightly less than 10,000 square feet just based off of how they were plotted, but that is the 01:07:09
zone that they were put into. 01:07:13
This lighter red color up here is R18, so that's an 8000 square foot lot minimum. So if. 01:07:17
You were? 01:07:27
Say put or allow within the code the 8000 square foot lot minimum for an external Adu. 01:07:29
That's the amount of area that that would include. So here there's a little pocket here and just little pieces. 01:07:35
And then I think down here. 01:07:43
Looking at the zones overall, then if it was approved as two properties as low as R18, you're essentially green lighting almost 01:07:45
the entire city. 01:07:51
Right. If you were restricted to 10, you're probably closer to about. 01:07:56
5060% of the city, right. And that limiting it to 10,000 might be a good starting point to see. You know if we're looking at 01:08:03
measurable tasks that is something that could be measured of OK, if we bring our lot minimum size down to 10,000 for an external 01:08:11
Adu, how many does that produce? And then is that something that we want to allow on smaller lot sizes? 01:08:18
Or you do a corner thing, you know there's there are options there. 01:08:28
But if I think that's kind of a baseline of is. 01:08:34
Is that a component that you want to include? If so, what sort of regulations do you want to have in place to? 01:08:37
For that, if that was something that you were wanting to change. 01:08:45
Well, I just real quick while I have the thought in my head and we have Anne with us. I'm a big tree proponent and so I know 01:08:49
you're you're on the on the agenda item of educating and and looking for these additional properties. But I will say that I I 01:08:57
would be hesitant in advocating for. 01:09:04
Accessory dwelling units, especially on the larger properties and the greater Walker Woods area because I think it would be a 01:09:13
detriment to the natural beauty which is Walker Woods. 01:09:18
To strike, to start filling that up with additional structures in that area. 01:09:23
So I support the cause, but maybe the education could be focused on the lesser Walker Woods area within the city boundaries. Yeah, 01:09:27
I mean, that's a really great point. You know, there's something else that we've been talking about is finding ways to reduce 01:09:33
energy costs. 01:09:38
And you know, trees, as we know, eliminates the urban heat island effect. 01:09:44
And we all know as we drive, especially me when in the summer when I drive down Holiday Blvd. When I get just below the hill, that 01:09:49
temperature drops a good five to 10° sometimes in the summer. 01:09:55
So the effort of educating the public and planting new trees around our structures to reduce energy. 01:10:02
Costs is it would be another benefit for sure. 01:10:08
I think another component on those larger properties too that we've discussed in some of our meetings and we've had people 01:10:13
applying for guest houses or other. 01:10:18
Additions of structures on those larger properties as utility access and that can be a major barrier for a lot of property owners. 01:10:24
So it's even if they can do it, you know, utilities may be a large issue for them or what would be preventative of them from 01:10:31
building a external accessory dwelling unit. 01:10:37
Largely they they're more motivated to build a guest house. As we've seen on several of those larger properties. Our code does 01:10:43
allow for guest houses. 01:10:47
So can I ask the difference between an Adu and a guest house? A guest house is an Adu. OK, well, I thought so, but is there a 01:10:53
separate requirement or separate? 01:10:58
Option for guest houses that they are allowed where an Adu might not be is I don't, I don't. I guess I'm just confused that if you 01:11:05
classify it as a guest house, it's loud. If you classify it as an Adu that you're renting, it is not allowed. 01:11:13
So yeah, some history on what guest house the guest house was the holidays. 01:11:23
First attempt, sort of an accessory dwelling unit. 01:11:30
It was one of the very first elements when the city incorporated, but they were only limited to half acre lots or larger. 01:11:34
So that's a holdover and they didn't have any rental restrictions on them. 01:11:42
You could use. 01:11:47
However, you wanted them to really lit it for family members or, you know, rented them out primarily as a mother-in-law situation. 01:11:49
Caretakers, landscapers would live in some of these guest house cottage type situations. 01:11:58
So this will not change that, correct? 01:12:06
Right. Those property owners still, I mean the code where it allows for guest houses is if you have a property that is half an 01:12:10
acre or larger, here's your footprint size for a guest house. If you have a property that is an acre or larger, then you have a 01:12:16
larger footprint. 01:12:21
All accessory buildings, including guest houses, can apply for a conditional use permit if they want the footprint of their 01:12:27
building accessory building to be larger than what is allowed. 01:12:32
So considering external Adus that could be a component that you add on is that you're strictly limited to the footprint size that 01:12:38
is in the accessory building table, so that maybe external Adus are not eligible for a conditional use permit. 01:12:46
Whereas. 01:12:54
You know, an accessory building. So that does create some complications as well. If you have somebody who's building a detached 01:12:57
garage, that takes up a huge amount of square footage if they want to add a. 01:13:03
One bedroom unit to the side of that garage that increases their footprint because they can't go above it because of height. 01:13:10
Unless they do a flat roof. 01:13:17
Yeah. 01:13:20
A really common scenario that we have is people who want to build a detached garage and then. 01:13:22
For a unit above it, they usually have to bring that in. 01:13:28
To what the main setbacks are for a for a structure. 01:13:32
In order to get the height up to where it needs to be or they do a flat roof. 01:13:37
So I think for the efficiency of the remainder of our discussion on this, the evening, couple things. One, I think it probably 01:13:41
just be good just to kind of go through the bullets. 01:13:46
That we've outlined, But before we do that because there is still a public meeting or public hearing open on this and we do 01:13:52
actually have some members of the public here that might actually want to give a comment or two on this. I think we should pause 01:13:57
our discussion and go ahead and see if there is anybody here this evening that would like to make it as a public comment on what 01:14:02
we're discussing. 01:14:07
And then your name and address for the record, please. Yes, so my name is Brad Millis and live at 3090 E 4430 S. 01:14:17
So we are my wife, Amy and I we are. 01:14:25
I guess we support the. 01:14:31
Text changes to the Adu code we support allowing a little more flexibility with Adu. You know, rental situations providing a 01:14:33
little bit more. 01:14:39
Opportunities for moderate income housing. So we have a unique situation. We live on 4500 S. 01:14:45
You can see, yeah, carries got that pulled up. So we're in the R18 zone and we've got about 1/2 acre lot. 01:14:53
So significantly bigger than what? You know, it's zoned. 01:15:01
It's a large enough lot to subdivide, which that is our plan. And so we'd subdivide to make two lots, a front lot and a back lot, 01:15:05
and just do. 01:15:10
A driveway with an easement, so flag lot essentially. 01:15:16
So I guess the owner occupied requirement of an Adu. You know, if you've got a house with an Adu the owner occupied, I mean 01:15:19
there's no exact definition in the code for what owner occupied is. I think it's pretty, you know, self-explanatory to what that 01:15:26
means. You live in either the house or the Adu and then you're able to rent out the other. 01:15:34
Building. 01:15:42
It seems like you know the purpose of the correct interpretation. 01:15:43
So that is one thing that we are proposing adding is a more specific definition of what owner occupied is and that would be 01:15:49
another item of discussion is primary residence versus. 01:15:54
Owner occupied and that could be a policy consideration that you could pass on to City Council. If that's something that you don't 01:16:00
want to decide today, yes. What is the staff interpretation of? 01:16:06
Staff interpretation of owner occupied. 01:16:13
The point he made was about they could be in either the Adu or the primary residence and I thought that they had to be in the 01:16:17
primary residence. No, you can live in either unit so the owner can live in the Adu and rent out the the main primary. 01:16:25
Sorry to cut you off, Brad. Go ahead. No, that's fine. Yeah, great clarification. 01:16:36
So I mean, you know, it seems like the purpose for having owner occupancy with an Adu, you know, my interpretation would be to 01:16:41
have the the owner on site to manage the Adu, manage the rental, make sure you know it's well maintained. 01:16:47
So our situation, if we were to subdivide our property, we would now create two separate parcels. 01:16:55
Correct. If we were to build a house with an Adu on each of those, which we would be allowed to based on the building code. 01:17:01
We could technically only own or occupy one of the parcels because we couldn't live on both of the parcels at the same time. 01:17:10
And so that would limit us from renting out the Adu on the 2nd parcel so we could rent out the main or we would live in the main 01:17:19
home on one parcel. 01:17:24
We could rent out the Adu on that parcel. We could rent out the main home on the 2nd parcel. But we technically couldn't rent out 01:17:28
the Adu on the 2nd parcel because we technically don't meet the owner occupancy requirements. So I sent an e-mail that Carrie 01:17:34
suggesting potentially. 01:17:40
Clarifying owner occupancy, what that means and maybe having something in there that says you know if the primary, I guess if the 01:17:46
owner. 01:17:50
If the owner of the parcel lives. 01:17:55
200 feet, which is a pretty small distance. 01:17:59
Of this, you know a second Adu. In our situation, we would be allowed to rent out that second Adu. 01:18:02
Because essentially we would be on site to manage that, you know, we would be living on one parcel. 01:18:09
2nd parcel we created, you know, it's just right behind us. It's all one parcel today, so that would allow us to rent out that 01:18:17
second Adu. 01:18:21
And I guess The funny thing is, you know, we. 01:18:27
Build the house as a second house with the second Adu. 01:18:30
And then if we were to sell that parcel, then somebody else could move in and then rent it out. So it seems a little funny that 01:18:34
somebody else would be able to utilize it, but we wouldn't. 01:18:39
So we're just hoping to add some clarification, you know maybe maybe you guys in the council would be open to adding some 01:18:45
clarification to owner occupancy and and having some sort of. 01:18:50
You know ability if in our scenario for us to rent out that second Adu because we would be on site and able to manage the property 01:18:57
and maintain the property. 01:19:01
And I think, you know, the only other areas that this may apply in is let's say somebody owns a home and then they you know buy a 01:19:07
house next door, then they could technically do the same thing. But I I don't see. 01:19:13
Having this text really having widespread negative effects, you know, going against the purpose of owner occupancy throughout the 01:19:21
city. 01:19:24
You know, try to think of how many scenarios this would apply. And it seems like it would really only apply if if you own a parcel 01:19:29
right next door to your primary residence. So. 01:19:33
Or you have one large property that could be subdivided if I'm not mistaken and John, you can correct me, I think you can do a 01:20:14
duplex on an R18, right? No, no. Is that is that is that the R16? There's an R28? 01:20:20
And sorry that that's a great point ideally. 01:20:31
We would just rezone this to R2 because a house with an Adu, I mean that starts turning into that scenario anyways. 01:20:35
But from what I understand, you know, going through the rezoning process is a little complicated potentially and maybe a little 01:20:42
difficult especially if we're just rezoning you know one parcel. We do have our neighbor next to us that's also got a half acre. 01:20:48
So maybe that's that's something to consider. But ideally, yes, we would just rezone it to an R28. 01:20:54
But I feel like, you know, amending, you know, doing a text amendment with while you guys are looking at this Adu code already 01:21:01
kind of. 01:21:05
And then we'll probably have some discussions. At what point is EADU make more sense than a rezone request? 01:21:39
Based on everything for the neighborhood, but I appreciate that and unless any other commissioners had questions for you, I think 01:21:47
OK, sorry, just one last thing it the lot size is large enough when we subdivide that we, I know you guys are talking about 01:21:53
minimum lot sizes for EADUS even though we're in an R18 zone. 01:21:58
If we were to subdivide, we would have 10,000 square foot per lot, so. 01:22:03
If that ends up being the minimum, I think we would still be able to to meet that requirement. So, OK, something to consider. All 01:22:08
right, perfect. Thank you. Appreciate it. 01:22:12
Excuse me. And Chair Roach, there was another comment that every all the commissioners received today from. 01:22:19
That was received this morning, I believe. 01:22:27
So that's, I don't know if you just want to overview that comment. It was from Mr. Estrada. 01:22:31
Did you give me a copy? It's a printed copy. It's the one that is not purple. 01:22:39
They're not purple. Coming. I'm sure I've got it. 01:22:44
Yep, it's stapled. It's a two page. 01:22:48
I struggled with what he was asking us to do. 01:22:53
What on the on the 2 pages? By the end I didn't know what it was? He asked. I was fortunate to grow. Have grown up in holiday, 01:22:57
that one, Yeah. 01:23:01
It really sucks. Yeah. So they are exploring possibly adding a or they would like to add an external Adu for his parents who have 01:23:06
lived in this property to move into accessibility issues. It's, you know, I brought that up at the last meeting is that sometimes 01:23:13
people may have mobility challenges or aging in place and so building an external ad that's specially situated to their needs is 01:23:21
kind of what he's looking at as an option possibly being able to provide housing to. 01:23:29
Religious groups as they're looking for housing for various volunteers and their religious organization. 01:23:37
That's a place where external ads may may fit into. 01:23:44
Serving as kind of a lower cost apartment that's not part of somebody's home. 01:23:49
But other than changing the setbacks, that was really the only. 01:23:54
I mean, he's he's in favor of Adus. 01:24:00
Yep. So their property is .43 acres. So it is a property who can't do an external Adu. 01:24:03
Ideally that is what they were looking at doing, to build a accessible unit for parents or to provide a housing unit for. 01:24:11
Religious volunteers. So if we were to lower it down to 10, then he would be more than qualified for that, yes, yeah. 01:24:21
All of the other comments and there are kind of like here are some ideas of other things that you can do which I that's it's good 01:24:30
for discussion. I don't know if we want to bring all those into the current discussion that we're already having. All right, 01:24:34
perfect. 01:24:38
With that, should we close the public hearing at this time on this or do we, I mean we've got it's 730 now, I'm not going to go 01:24:45
past eight, I know that for sure. I guess the real question is we're going to go if if we're not going to vote on this until 01:24:49
another meeting. 01:24:54
Do we depending on what we decide before that final draft and vote? 01:25:00
Are required to continue to keep having or is the fact that we've had two open meetings sufficient? 01:25:06
If if you're considering, you're contemplating new ideas. 01:25:12
Added to this draft. 01:25:17
Other than what's been proposed by commissioners who are not here. 01:25:19
Yeah, I would leave it open. 01:25:23
But if you're just contemplating refining what you have in front of you, you might be you. You'd be safe to close your. 01:25:25
Does anyone feel like we're going to expand or deviate from the amendments to the text that are already in there with anything 01:25:32
that you've seen thus far? 01:25:36
Based on the fact that we have two Commissioners not here tonight. 01:25:42
Should we keep it open? 01:25:47
We can. We have comments from one that isn't here, so it would be just one person. 01:25:49
Or no, We got comments from both of them. They would be here to make comments at a future meeting, that's true. There's no harm. 01:25:54
But I don't think that necessarily would hurt if the public hearing was closed. And I guess we could also reopen the public 01:26:01
hearing if it came down to we decided, no, we want to go back and play with things some more, right. I think we're going to be 01:26:08
asked to because whatever the final draft is will not make everyone happy and they will ask us to again change it. 01:26:15
OK, well, we'll just leave. We'll leave the public. We'll just err on the side of caution and leave public airing open for another 01:26:22
week then. Because I don't know that we're going to land on the final tonight with the the time left. But we do want to plow 01:26:27
through as much of it as we can tonight. 01:26:32
And so with that, I think maybe if we just focus on one bullet at a time of the text and then we can just check mark and say we're 01:26:38
done with that. 01:26:41
So I think probably one of the big ones, well one of the easy ones we could probably just check off regardless of what we do with 01:26:46
the rest of it is parking requirements. So where do we have parking requirements outlined with the new table? What page that is on 01:26:54
line 26? Item number 5 is parking. So the red text If an accessory dwelling unit is being added outside of the existing footprint 01:27:02
of the home on site, parking must meet the minimums required in section 13.80, point 040. 01:27:10
Determined by the number of bedrooms in the accessory dwelling unit. 01:27:19
Does everyone feel comfortable with saying you need X number of driveway space based on bedroom rather than footprint or zone or 01:27:23
anything else? 01:27:29
Well, I think go ahead. No, go ahead. I just think. 01:27:35
Troubling to me to just allow people to park in front of the garage because that affects the flow of the traffic in the main house 01:27:39
and just take so they can get away with it. I would like to see a designated space. 01:27:45
So that there's effort made to actually accommodate. 01:27:51
Additional people who are going to be living there. 01:27:55
It's always kind of troubled me that we cut a lot of corners to get the ad use and all that in, but. 01:28:00
When it starts to affect how a neighborhood looks and feels, to me, that's a problem. 01:28:06
So did we have designated spots already? So you're concerned? I thought it was just in front of the garage. We don't have any 01:28:11
designated spots. It's just that one additional parking spot needs to be provided for an Adu, whether that's internal or external, 01:28:17
but that could be in front of the garage. 01:28:22
But to be fair, the homeowner could fill their garage with crap and park in front of it anyway, right? 01:28:31
Makes the parking kind of disappear. 01:28:38
So, like, not that I'm calling out any neighbors on my street or myself, but you know, not everybody parks in their garage, so I'm 01:28:43
just saying, like, do we? 01:28:47
Do we need to give any special consideration on the text amendment around that factor? I don't know. I'd like to if the Commission 01:28:51
would consider it if they could have a designated space that isn't necessarily a part of the current driveway. But if you feel 01:28:57
like that's OK, I'm going to go with you. 01:29:02
I mean. 01:29:09
I guess that would be the conflict there would be between the property owner who is going to be on site more than likely or 01:29:11
respective. 01:29:16
Blood relative as we get through that narrative. 01:29:22
But the property owner is going to be there, and that's their problem to workout if that's going to be something that they want to 01:29:25
allow and deal with the headache of, oh, you got to move your car so I can get out, right? Whatever configuration that is. I am. 01:29:31
You run into that with anytime you have an internal dwelling unit as well. Great. If you're renting out your basement, Where is 01:29:37
your parking space, Mr. Tennant? OK, we're going to have you park. 01:29:43
Only on this side. 01:29:50
In front of the garage and then we're going to use the rest of the garage for storage or and I'm sure code does not want to be. 01:29:52
In charge of knowing where the designated space is and when the neighbor complaints and I. 01:30:00
I see. And I've got a Paula to your point, I think you're you're right. I've, I've got a bit of a different take on it to to 01:30:08
consider. 01:30:12
One of the things we've talked about is this idea of wouldn't it be nice to bring you into legal compliance, all of these? 01:30:17
Illegal apartments that we know are out. 01:30:25
And then we can count them in our little counting of 80 use and look good for state stuff. 01:30:28
And if not that, I'm thinking of any neighbor in particular, but if this one neighbor in particular that I'm thinking of had to 01:30:35
provide a parking space in his driveway, he won't bring his unit into. 01:30:41
He won't. 01:30:48
Bring it into the light because then he'd have to give up sure spot for his boat. 01:30:50
Or whatever vehicle, recreational vehicle of the moment to shore. And you know, those residents might possibly, if I was actually 01:30:56
Speaking of a neighbor I know, park on the street. 01:31:02
And so by having parking requirements, does that going to have people say, well, I'm not going to go to the hassle of paying the 01:31:09
$25 fee and having to give up space in my driveway for my renter, I'll just let them be illegal. 01:31:17
I don't know if that's pushing people away from coming into compliance if we add that. 01:31:26
Granted, I would like all of my neighbors who have renters to have a parking space that is not on the public St. which to your 01:31:32
point is really good, but. 01:31:36
I'm not sure if it's accomplishing what the level which we would envision this code to be universally applied. You know, and. 01:31:42
And not create problems. Yeah, I think we have to just assume that people will comply with the law. Oh, forget it. Well. 01:31:49
Oh my God, you'll never be able to get an ordinance to a point where you can approve it because it'll have so many things moving 01:32:00
in. Because everyone will say no, no, no. As we've had in these discussions, we have a lot of different ideas and different 01:32:05
expectations. 01:32:09
So that's why I suggested. I appreciate what you just said because. 01:32:14
I don't know how you solve the problem. I don't. I don't know either. But I think. I think the parking issue is. I mean, for me, 01:32:19
if I think of one of my neighbors and they decide they want to put in an accessory dwelling unit behind them, what I don't want is 01:32:25
that accessory dwelling unit occupant parked in front of my driveway or in front of my house all the time because they're not 01:32:31
required to provide parking for them. 01:32:36
I just, I don't want to look at their 1970s Dotson beater that you know, they it's all they can afford because they chose to live 01:32:43
in an accessory dwelling unit and all right, so drive around the city tomorrow. 01:32:50
So, like, that's just I I think parking requirements are important. There might be some people that don't want to comply because 01:32:59
they'll have to tell on themselves and move their boat. And that's a champagne problem that I can't relate to. But I think that I 01:33:06
think it's important when we look at this from the aspect of needing to make sure that people have a place to park their tenants. 01:33:12
I don't mean to keep burdening staff with this, but have you checked with other cities how they deal with this? 01:33:20
I've seen a variety of approaches where they do have to add 1 or you can't do tandem parking. 01:33:26
For the most part, I think that neighbors are pretty aware if their neighbor has an Adu, and they're aware of what cars are 01:33:34
parking on the street consistently because we get those phone calls. 01:33:40
And so if we have a licensed Adu, that's going to be one thing that we're looking at. Oh, your neighbor has now called about this 01:33:47
car that's consistently parked there. That is they're saying is your. 01:33:52
Tenant's card Your Adu. You can't have your parking be on the streets so thus that creates a Ave. for enforcement. Just because 01:33:59
neighbors are hyper aware sometimes of street parking. I guess this is a universal problem it sounds. 01:34:07
So what? What does enforcement look like? 01:34:17
Violation. There would be fines associated possible revocation of an Adu license so they wouldn't be able to rent their Adu if 01:34:21
they're not complying with the regulations of an Edu. 01:34:26
So to your point, Chair, I think just having a designated off St. 01:34:33
Location. Papi will take care of most of this. They want to put two paver bricks in the middle of their lawn and say park there. 01:34:39
It's a driveway now. I don't care. 01:34:43
As long as it's not up on blocks, right? I have a neighbor who's done that and it's not attractive. Probably not. 01:34:50
But that being said, so are there any other concerns around parking or do we feel like this? 01:34:58
Amendment to the parking is good and we can check market and we're done worrying about the parking text amendment portion of this. 01:35:04
All in favor, good. OK, Parking check mark we have, we have moved on from parking. We're happy. Good job, Carrie. All right. The 01:35:11
next one maybe we want to just tackle this real quick now is defining the owner is that outlined in this language or is that still 01:35:18
more to come right so in the current? 01:35:24
Adu code it says the property owner living on site so. 01:35:31
Adding some clarification as to what the property owner is. 01:35:36
So property owner right now, I mean that could be a trust, it could be a LLC. So if you purchase a property, put it into an LLC, 01:35:42
that's now the property owner, so a member associated with the LLC. 01:35:49
Would then be considered the. 01:35:57
Living on site because So if you have an LLC, you have a business partner that you want to name as part of your LLC. Now they can 01:36:00
live in the house and be the owner on site. 01:36:05
3rd slumlord comes to mind when I hear this kind of thing. There's what I'm saying is that there's workarounds or family trust, 01:36:10
right? If you have a family trust, any member of that's named in that family trust then can live on site, which fairly common when 01:36:18
you have tax incentives to keep properties within families or to not sell them if you run into them. 01:36:25
Them family and birth, putting them into a trust and then possibly renting them out to other members of the family or whatnot so 01:36:32
that they're avoiding the the gains tax. So. 01:36:38
That's what you're looking at with property owner living on site. As a more vague definition so proposed is adding some 01:36:45
clarifications as to what owner occupancy is. So owner occupancy required. This is the same language that Salt Lake City has in 01:36:53
their code as to what an owner occupant is. I use this code or this. 01:37:01
Definition in home occupation as well. 01:37:10
A recommendation to City Council could include a consideration of primary residence or owner occupied. 01:37:14
Cities approach that both ways of requiring primary residence. 01:37:22
And having that specification met. 01:37:28
Or having an owner occupied. The definition that is proposed in the code is either an individual who's listed on the recorded deed 01:37:32
as an owner of the property. 01:37:38
Any person who is related by blood, marriage, or adoption to an individual who is listed on recorded deed as an owner of the 01:37:44
property, or an individual who is a trustor of a family trust who possesses legal legal ownership of the property, so that. 01:37:51
Spells out. 01:37:59
If you're on the deed, if you're a truster on the deed, or if you're related to somebody who's on the deed. 01:38:01
And the relation by blood, marriage or adoption, I believe that came from state code somewhere, but it's not in the land use code 01:38:08
it was. 01:38:13
Or there's some legal purview around what is a family relation? 01:38:20
And that's. 01:38:27
Blood marriage or adoption is a family relation. Well in Commissioner Gong and although she's not here and her e-mail did point 01:38:28
out that she was concerned about her eighth cousin being related by blood, how far delineated do you get? 01:38:35
With the bloodline, I mean, technically I'm related to royalty, but they're not going to let me live there, right? 01:38:43
Blood relation is. 01:38:50
And that might be something that legal would need to clarify, but I believe. 01:38:53
Cousin like, more immediate, like first degree relation. Yes. Yeah. So I brought the little chart. 01:38:57
Lawyers look at that and it's the whole concept of consanguinity. 01:39:04
And that and. 01:39:10
You know your children, your parents and. 01:39:12
Are really your first level? 01:39:17
And then if you go second level, that includes grand grandchildren, brothers and sisters and grandparents. 01:39:19
And then you can go third level and get into great and all that. On 4th, you get down to third cousins thrice removed. OK. And I'm 01:39:27
the one that's been pushing this saying that I still think this is too broad because we're all related to each other somehow and 01:39:35
that and and that plus you get into that whole debate about OK, how do we can approve this. For code enforcement, you have to 01:39:42
prove things, OK? And having done code enforcement and had to do that, it did it. It can be done, but. 01:39:50
You know, people lie and and you know they're like it. They're liking it. My, my father, OK, but like a father isn't a father. 01:39:58
Father has a legal definition. 01:40:08
And that and so I was just looking for more clarity. I'm OK with all of this. 01:40:10
As long as we put something that said, at what level of conscience? 01:40:15
And then OK. 01:40:20
And I agree that having that second level, because we're trying to take care of grandparents, we're trying to take care of 01:40:21
grandkids and brothers and say, I think everyone agrees that that's family. 01:40:27
You start getting into third, fourth, fifth level, I think that's OK. That's not the purpose of why we're doing it. The the goal, 01:40:33
I think as we all understand or at least I understand an Adu. 01:40:39
Is you have. 01:40:45
On his, his or her? 01:40:47
Who has a stake in making sure that the property is maintained, that the neighborhood was kept, you know? 01:40:50
Consistent with the neighborhood values and stuff and that and anytime you get outside that including unfortunately when you have 01:40:56
multiple Adus which I don't think is a concept multiple ad use that's a commercial project that. 01:41:04
And we talked about that in another meeting map. Well, how do we stop developers from building a bunch of Adus and trying to have 01:41:12
one person satisfy the ownership requirement and then build a subdivision of Adus? 01:41:19
That I don't think that is an Adu. I think an Adu is a single unit related to a single owner in a single residence. 01:41:28
Yeah. So based on that logic, she would just use level 1. 01:41:35
For the ownership part, because they then you can have the level to occupy the Adu. 01:41:39
And or even anybody, frankly. 01:41:46
So yeah because you know and that so I just wherever the line is and that if you want to be generous could be I would I'm 01:41:49
comfortable with one I think that's the intent. I think so too it's the immediate family. What we would typically think of is the 01:41:54
immediate family and then I can think of situations where. 01:42:00
The parents die and the grandparents move into the house to raise the grandchildren and that and then when the ones ready to be 01:42:08
off on their own they, you know rent it off and that. So I just, I just want a line. 01:42:14
So that we know the answer. So that level is grandparents, siblings, parents. Well second degree would be grandparent. 01:42:21
Brothers and sisters and children. 01:42:28
So if you wanted the East Coast, you know, first level is children. 01:42:31
And. 01:42:34
So I could see the value in adding that grandparent component. 01:42:37
I can see as a grandparent that if I could be in an 80, you know, at some point in my life by myself. 01:42:45
And let your kids, somebody's taking care of me and checking I'm alive every morning. 01:42:51
Yeah, they're gonna mow your lawn and they're going to take that over the retirement community. Is that what you're saying? 01:42:56
Is there so you still get into the proof issue. 01:43:02
Yeah, but I just think part of it is that people read, well, oh, I can't do this, or I can do this, Or they ask staff and then 01:43:06
staff tells them what the answer is. And I sincerely appreciate the the enforcement aspect because that's usually an afterthought. 01:43:12
It's always, hey, we're making the standard of regulation, staff deal with it. 01:43:18
As long as the bright life of case law is enforceable and it's been proven before, I love it. Yeah. And and you've already taken 01:43:25
care of the marriage and adoption, so that takes care of the step, kids and. 01:43:31
And you know and adoptions and all that other stuff at that. I I just think you have to draw a line and I think that helps 01:43:37
alleviate the concern of someone deciding to go into a neighborhood and play monopoly and they're going to buy all the houses and 01:43:43
put houses behind the houses and now they want to buy Boardwalk, right like now that's it's just like OK, I'm building this 01:43:49
accessory dwelling unit for the intent of why we want accessory dwelling units. 01:43:56
Well, I would have to agree that I I'm comfortable with the first degree and I want to look at pulse chart. So send that down this 01:44:02
way because now I'm super curious. 01:44:07
And we don't have legal here to to come to confirm on first level for that appropriately raised the issue then a family first 01:44:15
level, I'll look at that again but first level I thought first level is just. 01:44:24
Children, but then the second level, second level picks up second grandparents, grandchildren and siblings. So does it need to go 01:44:33
to second level to include grandparents? 01:44:38
I I don't understand what we're confused about because if the grandparents become the owner, they are level one again. Yeah, 01:44:46
there's a level one. Yeah, they're they're the level one and that. So someone wants the gentleman who wants to build something 01:44:53
first that that's fine because he doesn't have to have any relationship with who lives in his a EADU. It's just he has to live 01:45:00
there. I mean here here's the hypothetical, my great granddad who's 105 years old in bed. 01:45:07
Owns a property in holiday and he's going to build an Adu and I get to live in the primary residence and then he rents it out to 01:45:15
somebody. Are we blood related enough or is that just like here? I want you to go manage this property for me so I can make some 01:45:20
extra income. 01:45:24
And we're not saying who can live in the Adu, we're just saying right, but who can be the primary? Who is the owner? Who isn't 01:45:30
owner by definition, right? John correctly pointed out to me. And and and having dealt with this, also with code issues and doubt 01:45:36
about how many people constitute a family. 01:45:42
And. 01:45:49
The state law is preemptive in Utah and says that four people, they don't have to be related. They don't this, that and the other 01:45:50
and that's for a single family home. 01:45:56
Where before cities used to say, well, you can't live together if you're not married or you can't have. 01:46:01
XYZ relative because they're not a family member and that or you can't have 4 individuals renting a house or buying a house that 01:46:09
are not related to each other. 01:46:14
But that's that's AI. Don't think this runs afoul of. 01:46:20
Because that's a definition of who can live in a single family home, which is different than who can be the owner if there's an. 01:46:23
Right, so you can be an owner, you can have roommates, you can have four roommates, then rent out your Adu as long as you're the 01:46:32
owner, you live on the property, or you can live in the Adu and have a main house. 01:46:40
So what level are we landing on then? 01:46:52
Just so I can make notes first level one level. 01:46:57
Immediate family. Immediate family. Immediate family. 01:47:03
Yeah, well, that. But the definition of immediate family is different than this. And what do you do? 01:47:07
About well, if if if there's a complaint, your code has to deal with it, then they'll have to figure out how they prove that. Okay 01:47:14
that. I mean, I can't answer that. But when someone comes in and says we want to do an Adu and you say, OK, so who's the owner? 01:47:20
And you say OK and that. 01:47:25
So typically property ownership affidavits are required. Those are notarized. The notary verifies that you're on the deed as the 01:47:32
owner or that you are related. So that's where that verification and documentation would come in that we'd have a notarized 01:47:40
property ownership affidavit. And so then code enforcement then looks like, OK, are you? 01:47:49
In this. 01:47:58
And you need to prove your relation to this property owner that is notarized here. 01:48:00
So you have to prove you're the you're the son or. 01:48:06
Well and and if codes taking an option that somebody has misrepresented what their status is to get the permission for the Adu and 01:48:10
then the city is going to have to assume the burden of I'm going to let all that come out in the wash like at that point I think 01:48:16
we're just getting lost in the I'm I'm looking at the text amendment and I think what we need landed on is we need first level 01:48:22
language added in there and then we'll feel pretty good about owner definition. Is that fair? 01:48:28
So then we got like 5 minutes before I'm calling this. 01:48:36
Do we want to tackle size restriction, height restriction or non conforming without tear down rebuild? Which one of those do we 01:48:40
think we can touch in 5 minutes and maybe get headway on? 01:48:46
We'll try them all. Let's start with. I think lot restrict lot size restriction might be a bigger discussion. How about height 01:48:54
restriction? 01:48:57
Where where is that updated and in this amendment text, line 50? 01:49:02
So that's item number 5. Previously it was comply with the maximum height as per section 13.14 point 110, which is a 20 foot 01:49:07
height for accessory buildings. 01:49:12
This changes the height for Adus, limited to 12 feet when located within setbacks for accessory buildings. 01:49:18
The height may increase to match the height for the primary structure when it's located within the setbacks required for the 01:49:26
primary structure. That's the same with any accessory building. If you're building a detached garage and you want it to be 32 01:49:31
feet, you pull it in further to your property. 01:49:36
There's variability on this. Typ. 01:49:41
One single level is 16 feet when you're accounting for a pitched roof, so you could change that to a 10 foot wall height and a 16 01:49:45
foot overall height, and that would account for a pitched roof. 01:49:52
If you don't want to allow for that variability, it may be difficult for somebody to build an Adu that's 12 feet unless. 01:49:59
Flat R. 01:50:08
But that may be what you end up. 01:50:10
It's more limiting in some ways. 01:50:12
Your intrusion into maybe what the neighbors will see as a roof. 01:50:16
If you're going up to 16 feet and we want to keep it single, like this has language about single level though, right? Like they 01:50:19
put a basement, that's that's their prerogative. That doesn't count. But they cannot do a two-story behind there, right? So you 01:50:24
could just change the language to have it be just a single level. 01:50:30
Instead of having a specific height restriction. 01:50:36
Which? 01:50:39
Restrictions regulated by 20 feet anyway. So if you build a single level, maybe you have a nine foot ceiling, but then your roof 01:50:42
goes way up at it to get that 20 foot accessory building. 01:50:47
We have a practice with some people building things and then. 01:50:55
They read the code single level, OK, that's one level, it's 20 feet high, but it's one level, OK And then you come in and find out 01:51:00
that's not what the city means by one level. And they I I would just as soon say that. So when someone's thinking about this. 01:51:06
There's a number in their head. 01:51:14
That it'll be single level and maximum single level not to. 01:51:18
Thinking about what to propose or whether to start the project. 01:51:24
Not that anyone starts a project. 01:51:30
Of course, or anything in the city, but. 01:51:33
You know, I just think the more answers that are there in black and white. 01:51:36
Makes it easier to explain why we can't say yes to what they already built, right? Paul just wants lots of meetings because he 01:51:40
knows every deviation from this is going to wind up back here. So I think that changing that to height or the accessory building 01:51:46
height. 01:51:51
Or external accessory building is limited to a single level, no greater roof height than 16 feet. So then it's shorter than what 01:51:56
our accessory building height is allowed? 01:52:02
Building height. 01:52:08
Limited as well by a graduated height envelope, so you can't build really close to a property line and have your your height come 01:52:10
in. 01:52:15
As you go up in height, you have to back further away from the from the property line. 01:52:21
So say a 10 foot foot set back. If you have a 10 foot set back, you're the point that that intersects is 18 feet. 01:52:27
So if. 01:52:36
10 feet away from our property line. 01:52:37
Intersection point to your wall. Height can be 18 feet. 01:52:40
So that's another control on height that kind of pushes those buildings further away if you want to go up to a 20 foot height. So 01:52:45
do you think that simply saying? 01:52:51
A single level that because there's this other check of the graduated. 01:52:57
Height on envelope that. That covers it anyway. 01:53:03
And we wouldn't need to include. 01:53:08
Not to exceed, you know, 16 feet or 12 feet or whatever because it creates an additional standard specific for external Adus that 01:53:11
is already addressed and the height limitation that we have for accessory buildings and graduated height. 01:53:18
I don't know, John. What is your interpretation is, if we may? 01:53:26
You know, weighing those two kind of options. 01:53:31
For the only for the purpose of the existing ones. 01:53:36
Existing struct. 01:53:39
Or altogether. 01:53:41
For Al. 01:53:44
I think if you're looking at the impact on neighboring. 01:53:48
I think. 01:53:52
Having the one story is pretty much irrelevant because they're trying to get they're going to try to get bonus space up in that 01:53:54
upper level anyway. 01:53:57
And by building code definition, that's going to be defined as a second level. 01:54:01
So if a zoning code conflicts with whatever boning like, small bonus space you put up there with dormers. 01:54:06
Restricts that now you have a conflict of interpretation of building code compared to zoning ordinance. 01:54:12
But if you're looking at massing, how big is the structure going to be and how impactful it might be next to properties? 01:54:18
Changing that notion of graduated height. 01:54:26
Because the same standard is used for primary buildings as is used for accessory buildings. 01:54:29
You stand at the property line. You measure 8 feet up. 01:54:35
Throw this imaginary line 45° into the site. 01:54:38
Primary building is going to be much larger in scale and your accessory building will be so. 01:54:42
It might be possible to recommend that that be changed. 01:54:46
That that variable be changed from 8:00 to like 6 feet. 01:54:50
High You're looking at accessory. 01:54:54
The pole Hyde or the measurement is only 6 feet. Then you throw that line of 45°. That will dramatically drop the height. 01:54:57
Because we're looking at shorter setbacks, we're looking at shorter heights. 01:55:05
That's the impact at this property line rather than overall height. You can keep your overall height at 20 feet, but then. 01:55:09
To restrict massing at property lines, it could be a different dimension. 01:55:16
Rather than eight than six feet. 01:55:20
Or something else? 01:55:22
I think for me a large draw and a reason why this is important to get it right in this text is. 01:55:23
I look at R18 and R110 properties and I think to myself, OK, I live in one of these and my neighbor decides they want to build 01:55:30
this accessory dwelling unit. How high is that house they're building in the backyard going to be and how much of my Mount Olympus 01:55:36
and holiday forest that I get to see going away for? 01:55:42
Two stories or excessive pitch, roof, etc. So anything that can minimize that impact. 01:55:49
And that's that's what I'm for, if you're looking for that. 01:55:57
Graduated height and footprint size. 01:56:02
Are the two main factors OK? 01:56:06
I think we need to look at some facts in addition to the height because I don't think they are separate. I think they go hand in 01:56:08
hand and one affects the other. 01:56:12
And so I think our discussion probably should be broadened a little bit to allow the set back discussions part of this. 01:56:16
As you look at the other cities that the staff has interviewed and looked. 01:56:23
A lot of them have just gone with the external adus is the same as the primary structure and that takes care of your R18. 01:56:28
And that takes care of your smaller lots because they don't have a lot big enough. But it does allow for a be using most of the 01:56:37
properties. 01:56:41
So to me, I don't want to see an ad. You become the thing that redefines what a neighborhood looks like and feels like, right? 01:56:46
That should be a compliment to the area. 01:56:51
And so that's why I'm worried about having some of these existing accessory buildings that are at 3 feet. 01:56:56
And then they come in for a. 01:57:04
Now what do we do? We've got real problems then, because that really goes against, I think, what we're trying to achieve with 01:57:07
this. 01:57:10
Just have two lists, illegal and legal ideas. Well, or maybe do you do you write the code in a way where it's like, you know, new 01:57:14
structures this standard? 01:57:20
Legal non conforming structures this standard. 01:57:26
Like any existing one would have to be either torn down or rebuilt. 01:57:30
To meet the new code. 01:57:34
Because again, I think I do have a garage that's three feet from my actually it's on the property line. 01:57:36
That is a real. 01:57:43
It has affected. 01:57:44
Kind of the feeling of that part of the neighborhood, so. 01:57:46
I'm kind of. I don't. 01:57:50
Let's say 5. 01:57:55
So, so how do we so? How do we resolve the height? Do we have to include the setbacks with that? 01:57:57
This is a broader discussion that needs. 01:58:03
So I think looking at graduated height, using John's example of reducing that, how graduated height is measured, reducing that to 01:58:06
six feet instead of eight feet. So same example with a 10 foot set back, your intersection point is now 16 feet instead of 18 01:58:14
feet. And that may address you know your even if you're you can go up to 20 feet, it still would have to come back a little bit 01:58:22
further just by lowering that graduated height to measuring point to six feet versus 8 feet. 01:58:30
Unless we make the set back 10. 01:58:38
That's where the starting point. Then you can start to graduate from that point. That's why I'm saying maybe a larger set back 01:58:41
helps us to kind of eliminate some of the concerns we're talking about. 01:58:46
Yeah, I mean, that's a good point you can have. I mean, this is a completely different animal. 01:58:52
Why we need to have apply the same standards for existing structures because we haven't even gotten into lot sizes. We're ready to 01:58:56
to to green light on this yet. We're just talking about how how big do we want to see these houses get built if we go smaller and 01:59:02
smaller with lot size. And we we routinely let people know if they want additional height in their accessory buildings, whether 01:59:08
it's a pool house or garage or whatever it might, whatever it is. 01:59:14
They can pull into the building footprint of the primary home. 01:59:21
They can get extra height, there's the footprint doesn't restrict. 01:59:25
But it could be 30 feet or more away from the rear property line or. 01:59:30
10/5 to 10/15 feet away from the side property lines. 01:59:34
Yeah, the example in the staff report with Salt Lake Citys approaches. You know there is a 17 feet as you. 01:59:38
Further away from the property line. The difference is their set back is 3 feet, but you could have your starting point be 01:59:47
further, so say 10 foot set back. 01:59:51
16 feet. 01:59:56
And as you move further away from that into the main area that would be required for a structure, you go up to 20 feet, 10 feet, 01:59:58
right? Like you're starting looking up at the 45 would be 6 feet. 02:00:04
After you go in the 10, right? So I'm making sure I got the numbers right in my head. It's not 16 feet high at 10 feet. 02:00:11
OK, I think that. 02:00:20
Alleviates my concern. How does everyone else instead or planning can feel about that? 02:00:22
As far as I think there's keeping the levels within scope, yeah, So can we get that updated then to to reflect? 02:00:28
6 feet at 10 and we do want 10 is the minimum. 02:00:37
Well, that's that's a discussion we probably still need to have because, but that sounds like where we're at at this instant. I 02:00:42
think that's a good start. It's a good place to be in 10 set back, all right. That's what we're going to put on for the next one 02:00:47
and then height restriction based on set back. 02:00:53
So we feel pretty good about height, it's just the set back. So what we're looking at left on this to move forward because I'm 02:01:01
calling it, it's 808. 02:01:06
Unless y'all just really want to stay here all night, lights, lot size restrictions, non conforming and minimum 10 foot setbacks 02:01:12
or some of the details to still iron out on this, what else am I missing? 02:01:18
Possibly a consideration for corners. 02:01:26
To what? 02:01:29
Different. What will be different with corners aside from the extra egress? 02:01:32
Allowing the smaller Watt. 02:01:37
To qualify for an external Adu based off of it being a corner lot. So that's if you're. 02:01:41
Cutting it off at 10,000 square feet, there's an extra allowance for smaller lots based off of a corner. 02:01:48
Can you explain to me how the set back happens on the secondary St. 02:01:56
Frontage where they can put the wall or can they bring the wall all the way to the sidewalk on that? I think we'd still maintain a 02:02:01
20 foot set back even for accessory buildings. So if that I mean to me that would probably be enough wouldn't it? For a corner, 02:02:08
corners have a 20 foot set back from the street, so your your external or potential external Edu on a corner is set back 20 feet. 02:02:16
That's usually like where you know a driveway would be. Driveways are about 18 feet long. 02:02:23
And then your building would be typically right at that 20 foot mark. 02:02:31
So smaller setbacks if it's a corner lot, but still. 02:02:36
10 feet back from a neighboring. 02:02:40
So looking at a corner here. 02:02:43
20 feet back on this side. 02:02:46
And then it would still have a 10 foot set back on this neighboring property. 02:02:49
OK. All right. Any other discussion points to to move into the next EADU discussion that we're just coming to love and we're going 02:02:54
to, we're going to beat this horse right into the ground and City Council's going to love it because we've done all the work. 02:03:00
So, all right. So sorry, Chair Roach, just to clarify on the height. 02:03:09
Changing the graduated height to the six foot, 6 foot at, 10 foot in and 10 foot set back right now. Tentatively minimum 10 foot 02:03:15
set back. 02:03:20
And we'll iron that one out in the next meeting. If anybody feels like that should be different, I'll include in the staff report 02:03:27
what the setbacks are currently so that you have that specifically to compare. 02:03:32
Perfect. Any other questions around EADUS or anything else before we move to adjourn? 02:03:38
We do. We do have to do. We have to. We have to have a motion to continue, right, Because it's public. This is Commissioner 02:03:47
Prince. I motion that we continue the discussion of external. 02:03:51
Accessory dwelling units to our next meeting. 02:03:55
All in favor, Say aye, Aye. 02:03:58
Motion passes unanimously. Thank you very much. With that motion to adjourn. All in favor, say aye. 02:04:01
All right. Thank you. 02:04:06
And thanks for spending your Tuesday evening with the plan. 02:04:13
This one. 02:04:17
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Transcript

Event transcript
Will go ahead. It is 607 February 6/20/24. We'll start the official holiday City Planning Commission meeting. We have 4 items on 00:00:00
the agenda this evening. A general plan amendment, a cross. 00:00:07
Text amendment and another text amendment. 00:00:15
And we are absent 2 commissioners. We are also absent our City Council or our City Legal Counsel. 00:00:19
With us this evening, but as a reminder to the Commissioners, any motions made this evening do require a four out of five vote to 00:00:28
pass as favourable, and I have asked Commissioner Cunningham if he would read our opening statement, which is required of all 00:00:34
public meetings. So Commissioner Cunningham. 00:00:41
The chair shall call the meeting to order at the appropriate time, greet the people and read the following statement. 00:00:48
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen for Whose? 00:00:54
Is to review land use plans and offer special studies. 00:00:59
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map and ordinance changes. 00:01:02
And approved conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:01:08
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:01:11
Rather acts on applications as they are. 00:01:15
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except in publicly noticed meetings. 00:01:19
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location. 00:01:23
The nature of the neighborhood. Existing structures and uses related to the proposed change are. 00:01:28
Decisions are based on observations. 00:01:33
Recommendations from the professional planning staff. 00:01:36
The city's general plan. 00:01:39
Zoning relevances and other reports. 00:01:40
By all verbal and written comments and by evidence submitted, all of which are part of the public record. 00:01:43
Excellent. Thank you, Commissioner. 00:01:50
And so with that we have our first item on the agenda this evening, which is the Moderate Income Housing Plan. This is a state 00:01:52
required amendment and I believe we have city staff. 00:01:58
New city staff member and Francis Garcia who's prepared a presentation for us on this to help us understand and what is outlined 00:02:05
in this. So unless other city staff needs to touch on that first and I think we're going to turn it over to you and let you take 00:02:11
us from there. 00:02:17
Great. Good evening, everyone. 00:02:23
So First off, I'm gonna actually just do a little background on on the bill itself. In March 2022, the state passed House Bill 462 00:02:25
requiring all municipalities to take additional measures to ensure the local planning efforts focus on removing barriers 00:02:32
preventing construction. 00:02:39
And preservation of housing at moderate income levels. 00:02:46
So the bill provides a menu of 20. 00:02:49
Strategies that municipalities can choose from. 00:02:53
In addition to adopting the strategies, we're required to develop actions and measurable tasks to implement those actions for each 00:02:56
strategy and provide an annual report on steps the city is taking to make affordable housing more attainable and show meaningful 00:03:02
progress. 00:03:07
So I'll give a little information on moderate income and how it's defined. 00:03:13
As how do household incomes making less than 80% of the county meet area medium income level, which is 106,000? That's the county 00:03:18
Salt Lake County Medium Income. 00:03:24
So in terms of persons and family. 00:03:31
One person in a family can only make 59,400 and they're considered moderate income. If there's two in the family, it's 67850. 00:03:35
370-6350 and four individuals in the family is 84 eight. 00:03:45
For the purpose of the plan affordable housing refers to. 00:03:52
That a moderate income can afford without paying more than 30% of their income in rent. 00:03:56
Or to their mortgage, for example, a family earning an annual income of 84,800. 00:04:03
Anything more than 25,440 per year. 00:04:09
Which is 2120 per month spent on rent or mortgage, would put them in an unaffordable situation. 00:04:14
So out of 11,846 units here in holiday, approximately 25% of families spend more than the recommended 30%. 00:04:23
Of the income housing. 00:04:33
A significant. 00:04:35
Of our rent burden situations that we have here in high mortgage. 00:04:37
So looking again at 4138 households. 00:04:42
That are actually making less than the moderate income. So that's about 35% of holiday residents that are moderate income or 00:04:47
below. 00:04:51
Of our. 00:04:56
So our approved plan from February 23, the city chose 6 strategies. 00:04:58
Looking at those six strategies, three of them have been completed, so we can't report on them anymore. 00:05:05
And if you look at your staff. 00:05:12
The red shows. 00:05:16
Action items and tasks. 00:05:20
That we're recommending adding to those strategies that have been approved or that have been completed so that we can continue 00:05:23
reporting on them. 00:05:27
So coming up with these tasks and these action items we were doing, we had. 00:05:33
Ongoing discussions with the Department of Workforce Services, and that's the state agency that was tasked. 00:05:41
To provide guidance on the statute to all municipalities. 00:05:48
So we went to them, had conversations on an ongoing basis, what's needed, what can we do so that we can stay in compliance on an 00:05:52
annual basis. 00:05:58
So after researching and getting that guidance from the state, we're proposing an additional 3 strategies to be added. The three 00:06:04
strategies will help us show that meaningful progress that they're looking for. 00:06:10
In achieving our action items. 00:06:16
And proposing additional action items and tasks for the. 00:06:19
So we don't necessarily have to. 00:06:24
Have something new each year, but we do have to report on progress on. 00:06:27
An action item or a. 00:06:33
So we definitely want to be able to be eligible for funding, so we want to report on at least 5 strategies. 00:06:35
And. 00:06:43
Strategies. Not three tasks in one strategy. That's five strategies. So if we wanted to do 5 without making any changes, we. 00:06:44
Because we only have three left that haven't been completed. 00:06:54
So we need additional strategies and we need additional tasks. 00:06:58
Or action items added to those. 00:07:03
Strategies that have been completed so that we can continue to report on. 00:07:05
Does that make sense? I think I follow you and to help me because I'm a visual person, if we could maybe scroll back up to page 2 00:07:10
of. 00:07:14
There we go, the blue bubble infographic, we'll call it. So which of these strategies that we're looking at on this page? Have we 00:07:18
then already completed, if you can call them out by letter, since it looks like we got most of the Alphabet strategy. 00:07:26
E And that was to create or allow for and reduce regulate regulations related to ADUS. 00:07:34
That one has been completed because our action was to conduct a public engagement study to determine hindrances. 00:07:43
And that was done with passing the Adu ordinance back in 20. 00:07:50
But we don't have any additional. 00:07:55
Tasks associated with that strategy that we can continue showing progress. 00:07:57
On ad use like the discuss. 00:08:03
Proposing that additional. 00:08:07
Task which is monitoring. 00:08:09
Quarterly Adu. 00:08:11
Sending annual letters to residents. 00:08:14
You know homeownership rights related to Adu doing an educational type of campaign. 00:08:17
Doing those type of things if those are three different tasks so I only have to report on one. 00:08:24
Under that strategy for us to be in compliance. 00:08:29
So if we add three, that's a menu of items that I can choose from. 00:08:32
To report on, we don't have to report on all three of those tasks. 00:08:36
We can just report on one under that action item. Does that make sense? 00:08:41
So we can do up to three, but if we've reported on one then it's considered complete. Am I understanding that right under that one 00:08:47
strategy? 00:08:51
We need 5 to get funded or eligible for funding. 00:08:55
So we have to have. 00:09:00
5 strategies to report on Right under each strategy we have a variety of tasks and action items. 00:09:01
So we can choose five strategies that we want to report on. 00:09:09
Pick an action item. Pick a task. 00:09:13
Report on that. We're done for that strategy. Pick the next strategy. 00:09:16
We have 3 action items and a ton of tasks. Pick one action item, one task report on that. That's two strategies we report. 00:09:21
And then so forth. OK, so at this point number. 00:09:31
Completed that process and there's no revisiting. That one's done. Put a nail in it, right? Right. Unless we add those. 00:09:35
Action items and tasks that I'm proposing. OK, in your report, OK And Commissioner Prince, you had a question. Yes. So in these 00:09:43
different strategies, there are several blocks that are new items. So if we add, if we choose to recommend adding all of these 00:09:50
items. 00:09:56
We don't have to report on all of them to the state at once. It's just getting a whole bunch of things for you to do to choose 00:10:03
from over the next, over the course of the next couple of years and we can report on it on an annual basis, say monitor quarterly 00:10:09
82 Adu production. 00:10:14
Because we put quarterly there as a measurable timeline. 00:10:20
I can report on it this year, I can report on it next year and so. 00:10:25
Moving forward. 00:10:29
It's it doesn't. It doesn't say that you can't. You have to stop at that point. I had to put that timeline in there. 00:10:31
Thank you. 00:10:38
Commissioner Fullant. 00:10:40
We don't have to stick a fork in strategy E at this point, if I understand correctly. All we have to do what all what? One 00:10:43
possibility is that we add some tasks to strategy E that would enable us to report further with respect to those tasks. Is that 00:10:51
correct? Correct. OK. Thank you. 00:10:59
So is there? And I guess as I'm looking at this bubble, again, just being a visual guy, like there's there's eight things here, we 00:11:07
need 5. 00:11:11
Or 9 including the center 1 excuse me. 00:11:16
Right. Am I counting that? Right, There's nine total. Oh, OK. Yeah. All right. I can't read, sorry. Anyway, there's there's 00:11:20
definitely more than five, right, because that's how many fingers I can count. So is, is there a reason why we want to take on the 00:11:27
additional tasks or why we're putting so much emphasis on putting these extra items in there? Is it just because we're really gung 00:11:33
ho about making sure that we're covering the 35% of our residents that fall into that moderate income bucket or is there 00:11:39
additional funding if we do more than five? 00:11:45
No, it just we're doing them anyway. 00:11:52
So. 00:11:56
Get credit for it. 00:11:58
And it will be just easier all around to report on things. 00:11:59
Either planning to do. 00:12:04
We're doing them more early, OK? 00:12:06
And I and my for my own edification on why I'm asking this is it's just I'm not a lazy person. I consider myself efficient and so 00:12:09
if I don't have to tie my hands down to do more than I have to, I feel that gives me more liberty to make sure that I'm able to 00:12:15
accomplish everything else better. So I just I That's why I wanted to understand why we're looking at, you know, implementing 8 00:12:21
strategies now where 6 used to be. 00:12:26
If there's some benefit to the city in in taking on two more things that were lashing ourselves to, if that makes sense, Well, the 00:12:34
benefit is that we have more to choose from. 00:12:38
And we're not stuck on. 00:12:43
A couple of items if we are already considering doing some items. 00:12:46
I was I hired on to to provide some additional programs and additional items. 00:12:51
For our. 00:12:57
Then why not get credit for it and be in compliance at the same time? 00:12:58
OK. 00:13:02
That makes sense to me. I just like I said, I like to know the why behind the water, otherwise I don't make very good decisions 00:13:04
sometimes. So I appreciate that explanation and sampling it down for me. 00:13:08
So with that, were there other questions on this or did you want to continue through the program and I'll quit interrupting you? 00:13:13
OK, go ahead. 00:13:22
So basically adding those strategies there. 00:13:24
We're adding three additional, so we're going to have 9 totals. 00:13:28
If it's. 00:13:32
And like I said we're reporting on an annual basis hopefully for five is what we're our goal is. 00:13:35
And adding ongoing task. 00:13:42
We're focusing a lot on educational campaigns, providing resources for our residents. 00:13:46
On our. 00:13:53
Just showing that type of information. 00:13:55
That's what we were focusing on, sustainability. 00:13:58
Making housing more affordable by helping maintain the household. 00:14:01
By providing these programs and access to those programs. 00:14:06
So if you look at those tasks, that's what we're focusing on. 00:14:09
That's pretty much my report if you have any questions. 00:14:15
Any additional questions down here? 00:14:19
Commissioner Cunningham, you've been a little quiet. I just, I know you had some concerns in the work meeting, so. 00:14:23
You said we've decided. 00:14:32
Sorry. Yeah, I think the city has. 00:14:39
By hiring is a full blinding board. 00:14:43
Task you with fill. 00:14:46
I don't have any objection to any. 00:14:51
I just. 00:14:54
Taken on so many. 00:14:58
So early in the process. 00:15:00
Limited impact. 00:15:05
I'm glad we're going to actually count. 00:15:10
That meet the moderate income standard, which many of ours probably won't. 00:15:19
Just seems like. 00:15:26
We're going to exhaust this list of things to study and educate and all that. 00:15:30
And will still be a mandate to keep adding new tasks. 00:15:35
I guess I would fit better if we were spacing this kind of stuff out. 00:15:42
And I'll do some other entities where. 00:15:48
They're still trying to figure out. 00:15:51
Why we're going to start with. 00:15:53
We're doing really well. 00:15:56
Whose goals are to start doing this stuff in 2026? 00:16:01
Task list of the date. I don't want to complain about that. I think it's all good. I think it's all. 00:16:07
I just don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. 00:16:21
Making changes faster than we can see what the impact of the changes. 00:16:27
Makes sense, Commissioner. Font, you have something. 00:16:32
It just seems to me that we're getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves. 00:16:38
And if we're talking about a communications program, an educational campaigns. 00:16:42
Maybe I haven't been around long enough to know what's been done up to this point. 00:16:51
But perhaps some of that could involve reaching out to our residents. 00:16:56
Who have homes on half acre lots and and larger and communicating with them the opportunity to build. 00:17:03
EADS. 00:17:12
Rather. 00:17:15
Looking. 00:17:17
Homeowners with. 00:17:19
On smaller lots. 00:17:21
And putting Eadus on smaller lots, in other words, rather than changing our zoning. 00:17:23
So that we increase our density that's that's just such. 00:17:31
That seems to be such a dramatic change in the character of Holiday and maybe we need. 00:17:37
To crawl before we walk here and if we're talking about educational campaigns and communication efforts. 00:17:44
Maybe we reach out to the homeowners. 00:17:52
Who already have the opportunity to build Eadus. 00:17:56
And try to increase our. 00:18:00
Moderate income housing opportunities that way. 00:18:04
Before we rezone and and allow these structures on smaller lots. 00:18:07
And just to clarify, Commissioner Fonder, you kind of jumping into item four with the text amendment around the EA to use? 00:18:15
Because this the strategy being presented in this evening's item one is, I believe those EAD us are just one of these nine 00:18:24
components, is that right? 00:18:30
So are you saying you feel good about this, other than you're concerned with the EADU factor of it? 00:18:37
I'm kind of putting them all together. OK. So one of them, those issues is kind of a major hurdle for you in looking at this as a 00:18:43
whole. OK, That makes sense. All right. Thank you for clarifying. Commissioner Prince, did you have so I. 00:18:51
I I would have to have a different take on this that I really like the idea of having. 00:18:59
Million different strategies. 00:19:05
5 subparts or I'm picking five out of the air that give you a lot of different things to try at different times. And so I. 00:19:08
I can actually see the utility in. 00:19:18
Really expanding the portfolio of tools that you have to work through. 00:19:21
To try and accomplish getting more moderate income housing in holiday, which is a huge. 00:19:25
Herculean. 00:19:33
Sisyphus type task if we. 00:19:35
Mythological, honest. But you know, I I think you're going to need every. 00:19:38
Every trick in your basket to I'm mixing all my metaphors tonight, so I I actually really like. 00:19:45
Having a lot of things to choose from and and knowing that we're. 00:19:52
Tasked with doing all of them at once and accomplishing them in 2024 makes me feel better. 00:19:57
And then we're not tasked to do. We don't have to do all of them. 00:20:04
We could just say, you know, that doesn't quite work for us right now. 00:20:08
And we don't have to report. 00:20:12
But maybe it'll work for us in a couple years. 00:20:15
And it's there for us to use. 00:20:18
So it's a mothball strategy if if needed be OK. 00:20:20
I like that, Commissioner Barrett. Yes, I think I agree with what's been said. 00:20:26
I think with the new housing manager. 00:20:32
Moves a lot of things forward that maybe in the past wasn't going. So it may appear that we're being overly aggressive here, but I 00:20:34
think you've done a great job to me. I like a comprehensive strategic plan because it lays out things that the city can then 00:20:40
anticipate. 00:20:45
And health for as far as future funding CDBG. 00:20:51
That's the position you want to be. 00:20:56
I would rather be at this point. 00:20:59
Trying to get all the work done to qualify for those things in the future. So congratulations and I appreciate the work you've put 00:21:02
in on this. 00:21:05
Excellent. And I did fail, which I do sometimes, so we don't have council here to yell at me. But this is a public hearing, so I 00:21:10
do need to open this up for members of the public that have any comments. 00:21:15
Specifically around item one, which is the Moderate Income Housing plan. So if anyone's here this evening and would like to come 00:21:21
up and address the Planning Commission with comment around this item. 00:21:27
You are welcome to do so. Now we just ask you to state your name and address. 00:21:35
And doesn't look like we have any takers on that. So going once, twice and we will close the public hearing on this. 00:21:39
And with that, I think we've kind of had some good discussion around this as far as my thoughts go and just kind of to circle back 00:21:47
to Commissioner Fonts concern because the text amendment EADU section is not something that we're approving with this plan. It is 00:21:53
simply just a strategy within it which we can say, yeah, we don't like that we're going to, we're going to approve just flower 00:21:59
pots and that's all we're going to do around EADUS for now. 00:22:05
It doesn't really impact it to say this is going to be a tool in the toolbox that we can use for the strategies we're trying to 00:22:12
track and implement. 00:22:16
But I do understand the concerns that you've brought and will likely bring again as we get into item number four this evening. So 00:22:21
with that said, unless there's any other questions or thoughts Commissioners have around this item, I think we are at a point 00:22:26
where we could probably entertain a motion on this. 00:22:31
Is anyone prepared to do that by? This is Commissioner Prince. I'm prepared to make a motion this evening. 00:22:38
I motion to forward a favorable recommendation to the City Council to approve an amendment to the General Plan, Moderate Income 00:22:43
Housing Plan, Chapter 5, based on the following findings. 00:22:49
Compliance with the Utah State Legislature bill HB 462 Compliance with the City's Long Range Housing goals. 00:22:55
And compliance with the state's reporting requirements. 00:23:04
This Commissioner, Baron, I'll second that. All right. We have a motion and it's been seconded. We'll call for a vote. We'll start 00:23:09
down here. Commissioner Flaunt, Commissioner Cunningham. 00:23:14
Commissioner Prince, Commissioner Barrett and Chair Roach votes aye. So with that it passes unanimously and thank you for the 00:23:20
discussion on that. Thank you. 00:23:24
Thank you, Anne. Great job. 00:23:29
All right. And with that, we will move on to item number 2 on our agenda. And will that be Commission or excuse me? 00:23:32
Some evening will that be city staff Carrie Marshall will be presenting on that will invite up. 00:23:41
Always forget what the power button is. 00:23:54
All right. Thank you, Chair Roach. 00:23:56
So item number two is a cross slope exception for a vehicular access to a new residence that is going across a slope that is 00:23:58
greater than 30%. 00:24:03
This responsibility of approving A vehicular access across a slope is up to the Planning Commission to decide. 00:24:09
Included in the staff report was a report by the city engineer who's reviewed the site, has a good purview of what the slope is, 00:24:20
and has specific conditions that are outlined in the recommendation in the staff report. 00:24:27
The Historically the area is a gravel pit. The slopes were created from gravel pit operations creating a Rd. 00:24:37
Irregardless the our code doesn't define what if. 00:24:46
The Planning Commission can only approve a slope that's man made or natural. So in this case it's a man made slope that is before 00:24:52
you that. 00:24:56
Is it within your purview to either approve? 00:25:02
Not approved. 00:25:05
I'll have the applicant come up and he can explain some of the site and where that slope is at. Excellent. Thank you very much. 00:25:07
And with that, we'll invite the applicant up. At this time, it's nicker Amber Phillips here. 00:25:13
Hello. 00:25:25
Do we have pictures or what are we going off of? 00:25:27
I have a few Internet. 00:25:31
Just please make sure you talk into the mic so our city recorder can hear you. 00:25:33
OK. 00:25:37
Well, on the slope, are we going off the? 00:25:43
Is that what we're going off of? 00:25:46
Yeah. 00:25:51
So the. 00:26:06
Wasn't it? Wasn't there. 00:26:08
Start digging a little early, right? Carrie Houston saw it. 00:26:11
I don't know how to explain it that how. So where we dug it out, we created that slope. It wasn't there. There was a road coming 00:26:16
in. 00:26:20
Like I don't know if you can tell where the access point is. 00:26:24
There was a road coming across. 00:26:27
Can I go point at it? Yeah, so the original. 00:26:29
Came down right here. 00:26:33
And the new proposed Rd. is going right there. 00:26:36
And so this was all drivable. 00:26:39
Created. 00:26:42
When we were. 00:26:43
What can you say? So you push the dirt around and now there's a slope there. 00:26:50
That slope. And then they did the top. Oh, and the topo showed it as a slope. But there's been some site visits to confirm there's 00:26:55
not a slope where the driveway is going to be. 00:27:00
And I believe the city engineer made the site visit and it's just making sure that your. 00:27:08
Following the correct I'm not going to get into the technical jargon because it ain't my wheelhouse, but build it in a way where 00:27:15
the driveway is not going to sink into that slope, right, Exactly. OK And with that, Commissioners, did we have any questions for 00:27:20
the applicant? 00:27:25
At this time, OK. We'll go ahead and have you sit down then. Thanks so much for helping us with that And we will go ahead and open 00:27:31
up the public hearing if there are any comments about the slope and the driveway and concerns with that. 00:27:36
No public comment at this time. All right, we will close the public hearing on that and with that commissioners during the. 00:27:43
Staff report it was just noted that you know we want to make sure that there is the. 00:27:52
Inspection before the footprint is poured for this driveway, if we are going to make a favorable recommendation on that, you mean 00:28:00
footings, footing, Excuse me? 00:28:05
It's an evening. That being said, were there any Commission or questions from our Commissioners about this that needed further 00:28:11
discussion? 00:28:15
There's no need for a retaining wall anywhere. 00:28:19
That would be something that the city engineer is reviewing. 00:28:25
This is Commissioner Prince, I'll just state that I went out to see it because I was having a really hard time looking at all of 00:28:31
the pictures and. 00:28:35
Making sense of it. 00:28:39
As I drove in and drove right along where the driveway is going to be, I didn't. 00:28:42
Notice anything? 00:28:47
Even had me really slightly concerned. I sort of wondered why I was. 00:28:49
But I think it's important that we cross. 00:28:53
T's and dot the IS but I. 00:28:56
You know, I could see what the applicant was talking about with moving the dirt. 00:28:58
Earlier than maybe should have been moved, but you know that's OK. And and. 00:29:02
So you didn't feel fear for your life? I had No Fear. I had No Fear. My my car did just fine. And so I. 00:29:08
I mean it's important that we follow regulations and. 00:29:17
Make sure that everyone's being compliant and all that stuff but. 00:29:20
I was not nearly as concerned after visiting as I was when I was reading the report and thinking what in the world is going on? 00:29:23
That's so excellent. All right, well, I appreciate the first hand account report to that and. 00:29:29
With that, if there's no other points of discussion around this matter, I think we're we're ready for. 00:29:36
And that this does require the approval of the director right under the ordinance. 00:29:43
OK. And and it says in here that staff recommends approval. I assume that means you you recommend approval and the city engineer 00:29:50
recommends approval, correct? When it when it looks at director approval, approval from the director is is a response from the 00:29:56
TRC, the technical review committee which the engineer is a part of? 00:30:03
Thank you. 00:30:11
Good point of clarification. 00:30:13
All right. So with that, Commissioners, does anyone? 00:30:15
Feel brave and ready to make a motion on this. 00:30:18
This is Commissioner Prince. I'll go for it, all right. 00:30:28
All right. 00:30:32
This is Commissioner Prince. I recommend that we approve the. 00:30:35
I'm looking for the the proper address the application by Nick and Amber Phillips at 6002 Tolkat Woods Lane for. 00:30:40
30% slope. I'm not quite sure what the right term is to use. 00:30:52
Cross slope, cross slope. 00:30:58
For vehicular access, there we go. Thank you, based on the following findings that the area has been identified as a slow hazard. 00:31:00
No other location for access is feasible or available. 00:31:09
No segment of the access that will cross slopes between 30 to 50% exceeds 100 feet in length. 00:31:13
The cumulative length of the individual segments or increments that will cross slopes between 30 to 50% does not include exceed 00:31:19
10% of the total. 00:31:24
Of the private vehicular access. 00:31:29
And this condition is all. This approval is also conditional upon the following. 00:31:32
All recommendations within the geotechnical report will be addressed by the applicant property owner, specifically regarding 00:31:38
inspections by CMT and the removal of undocumented fill beneath the building footprint. 00:31:44
The applicant shall comply with standards listed in the holiday city code sections 13.76 point 300 and 13.76 point 700, including 00:31:51
review and inspection by the City engineer. 00:31:57
And that inspections by CMT will occur before footings are poured. 00:32:05
All right, we have a motion on this. Do we have a second? 00:32:11
I'll second it. Commissioner. Font Commissioner, Font seconds. All right. We'll call for a vote. We'll start down here this time. 00:32:15
Commissioner Barrett. Commissioner Prince. Commissioner Cunningham. Aye. And Chair Roche votes. Aye. So with that, we will approve 00:32:21
that. And good luck getting the driveway all sorted out. Thank you very much. 00:32:27
All right. And that will take us to item number three on the agenda, which is the, excuse me text amendment. 00:32:34
Round quasi public uses in the C2 zone, specifically in this case around a church. 00:32:43
And we will look to city staff to once again give us a report on this. 00:32:50
Thank you, Commissioner. 00:33:00
Our chair. 00:33:02
Proper titles. 00:33:04
So this application is for allowing quasi public use, which includes church. In our work meetings, we went through the definition 00:33:07
of what quasi public includes. It's beyond just a church use, there's nonprofits. 00:33:14
Recreational nonprofit. I don't remember all the details that are in there, but there were there were a few. So approving A quasi 00:33:23
public use would include all of those uses as defined in our code. 00:33:29
This application is just for adding a public use within the C2 zone. The applicant specifically is looking at a property that's in 00:33:37
AC2 zone to bring their church congregation into. 00:33:43
So that is their request. Historically, all of the existing church uses within holiday. We have several properties that are 00:33:51
churches. They were zoned as public at the time of incorporation. Same thing with parks fire. 00:33:59
Other public buildings, so public property, all of that schools, they're all within that public zone. That's how Holiday chose to 00:34:07
manage. Public uses is just to put them all in public zones. So the process is for a property owner or for a church use. If they 00:34:14
wanted to look at other properties would be to either add. 00:34:22
Quasi public use to the allowed use table or to rezone a property specific to the public zone. Sometimes that's not always 00:34:30
feasible. There is an existing church within a C2 zone that was there at the time of incorporation, so they have a legal non 00:34:39
conforming status. That specific property was not rezoned to public because it is part of a larger commercial area. 00:34:48
So there's trade-offs. 00:34:57
Some difficulty with. 00:35:02
Rezoning some commercial properties as public going and then going back to commercial if if at that point in time they. 00:35:03
If the yeast changed in the future. 00:35:11
So that is what the basis is for, just adding the quasi public use to the allowed use table. 00:35:14
And I will have the applicant come and talk a little bit about their their application and oh, did you have a question? I have a 00:35:24
question once you've finished your sentence. OK, go ahead. I'm just wondering if you can give us just a 32nd. 00:35:31
Blip of What's AC2 property as opposed to? 00:35:40
C1 or RM zone or you know those different commercial zones that we run across. Yeah. So C2 is a higher intensity commercial use 00:35:44
the. 00:35:49
Strip mall area with the theater is C2, so typically you'll see those in higher intensity areas, major intersections, so the area. 00:35:55
Directly West on Highland. That whole strip mall area is C2 as well. 00:36:06
C1 is a lower intensity commercial use. You might see that in some smaller strip malls or one off kind of properties. 00:36:11
Closer toward residential areas typically is where you'd see AC1. 00:36:20
And then we have a few other zones that allow either office uses or kind of commercial or retail uses. 00:36:25
Offices obviously in the PO zone, which we've dealt with recently. So we're very familiar with PO's. 00:36:33
There's I was made aware that there's a church in an RM zone, so that possibly needs to go to PO zone, So there's. 00:36:40
There's probably you're as you're looking for church congregations who are looking for places to meet. You know, they're looking 00:36:49
at various properties where they can lease and right now they are. 00:36:55
Very limited in that. 00:37:01
Neighborhood commercial, I think is another one. 00:37:03
Is there any other zones that are kind of commercial? 00:37:07
I guess the holiday crossroads. 00:37:11
Zone and Holiday Village. But I don't think they have. I mean, none of those will have church uses in them. 00:37:13
So the discussion is specifically adding quasi public to the C2 zones. 00:37:21
That discussion could expand. 00:37:26
Outside of that. Or you could just leave that to City Council if you wanted to make whatever your recommendation based on that. 00:37:29
And then Kerry, if I just could quick clarification, what are the potentially more arduous steps for a prospective? 00:37:35
Church. If they're wanting to come into a property such as this to get that rezone, is it just a higher filing fee and the fact 00:37:44
there's a public meeting or is there a lot more involved than if it was already an allowable use that, you know, is it just really 00:37:50
the difficulty of a public meeting? I'm just curious what makes that rezone request so much more difficult, I think a degree of 00:37:56
the process. 00:38:02
Or the time frame once it goes to City Council. Typically your rezone is heard in one meeting and then it is decided on like in 00:38:10
the next meeting or if I. 00:38:15
Hearing is continued. 00:38:21
Further out than that. 00:38:24
Just a difference in approaches. I think that adding an allowed use is possibly a cleaner approach that would apply to future 00:38:28
applications as well, rather than limiting it to one specific property. 00:38:34
The applicant direction as to if they should apply for a rezone or. 00:39:15
Use change and that's the direction that we gave them as a preference. 00:39:20
Commissioner Baron, question just on this. I realized that this is a site specific almost because they are requesting this. 00:39:25
I think it helps the city though, to look at how this impacts all the C2 zones, which I don't think this is necessarily a problem 00:39:33
and maybe we should even broaden the number of uses. 00:39:39
Or zoning. Excuse me that this could be used. 00:39:45
In so to answer your question, I think this one's specific. 00:39:48
But it does help us in the overall scheme of allowing these in C2 because I'm seeing a lot of churches in very unique places and 00:39:53
you know, obviously churches have to go where they can afford space and that type of thing and sometimes it's always not conducive 00:39:59
with. 00:40:05
The commercial zoning or an RM, that type of thing, so. 00:40:12
In your discussions with the applicant and maybe just people who come in and talk to you. 00:40:16
Have you had other conversations that maybe we should broaden how many of the zonings that we should include in this right going 00:40:22
off of my discussion that I had with the church that's in an RM zone today, it was, you know, they. 00:40:29
They're looking for just a smaller space, an office space that they can help these out. Some of these congregations are smaller in 00:40:37
size, so they don't need a large space. 00:40:42
You know, some of our existing public spaces may not be fitting to their needs or existing properties that are zoned as public. 00:40:47
So considering maybe some congregation size, largely what you're looking at is parking. If they meet parking standards based off 00:40:55
of how much space they're taking up, then some of those other properties that are either Office or C1 or C2 may be appropriate 00:41:01
zones as well. 00:41:07
OK. I just thought the city may initiate this in the future. 00:41:14
And we should probably refund these guys their money because it does. I think that does help the city overall because of. 00:41:19
You know, placement of a lot of these unique type of uses. So thank you for that. Are we ready for that? I think we're ready for 00:41:25
the applicant. We'll do it picking at you. All right. Thanks, Gary. 00:41:30
And if you state neighbors, hi, good evening. My name is David Billings. I'm an attorney at Fabian Vanguard. I represent the 00:41:38
applicant and help fill out a little statement that's in there. And so I'm happy to answer any questions the Commission has. 00:41:45
And I was attended the work session, so I'm happy to address those concerns too, in whatever order. 00:41:53
Question would like all right with that, Commissioners, do we have questions for the answer Your preference is whatever gets it 00:41:59
done the quickest. 00:42:03
And. 00:42:09
I think you heard our at least some of our concern and my concern is that. 00:42:12
I have no objection and would vote, you know, tonight if it was on, you know, to have a church there. I just think that there's a 00:42:17
bigger question about all the other uses that we'd be dealing with in AC2 zone. None of the interested parties would have any idea 00:42:24
that this was happening tonight. They saw a church request. 00:42:30
And that and I don't think they even you know, and they I think this is worthy of a lot more discussion. 00:42:39
And that, but I think your goal is to do that as quickly as possible. I understand that and that I don't think it would take that 00:42:46
long to put it back on a as a as a zoning request, but. 00:42:53
How? Is there any urgency? I mean, obviously they're looking and they'd like to be here and I think we'd love to have them. 00:43:01
The urgency is that we're in the middle of a transaction and there's two different transactions. One is we are closing on the 00:43:11
place that we're selling in West Valley. 00:43:15
The other is we're trying to buy this location and in this location is contingent upon. 00:43:21
Getting this approval otherwise we don't want to give them our money, right? So if we. 00:43:26
And under the contract, Mountain America does not want to wait around forever to find out what the city is going to do. So they 00:43:32
put in a hard cap on the amount of time we had to find out from the city one way or the other. 00:43:39
And that not doesn't just include this zoning issue in the text amendment, it also includes the parking. 00:43:47
And any other thing that we might need to get city approval for. 00:43:55
So that's the urgency from our and then so when I reached out to staff and said, you know I checked every box I could possibly 00:43:58
think of and said. 00:44:03
You know what should I do? I think you could fit under multiple things. 00:44:09
And the suggestion was this is the cleanest, most efficient way to do. 00:44:14
And then when I started looking into this, I found. 00:44:20
Other municipalities in the. 00:44:26
To Commissioner, I can't remember his Princess or Bernard's point. 00:44:30
They allow churches in pretty much every zone. 00:44:35
And they do that probably on 1st Amendment grounds. 00:44:40
But also. 00:44:43
You know, if they want to be there, they want to be there and you already have non conforming uses in multiple zones and there 00:44:45
really isn't much of A harm. And to your other point about. 00:44:50
Commissioner Cunningham, your point about unintended consequences. 00:44:56
My response would be None of those cities have noticed an upsurge in nonprofit acts, throwing or whatever, And we already have. 00:45:01
Permitted P. 00:45:13
Embedded in neighborhoods where somebody could come along with that such a nonprofit and buy an old church building and. 00:45:17
Start their nonprofit and you haven't. 00:45:24
Members of Holiday City come to you and say. 00:45:28
Make them stop. They're too noisy or. 00:45:32
Their axes are too loud. 00:45:35
So I think. 00:45:36
If that concern happens in the future, you can address it at that time. But right now, what before what is before the Commission 00:45:40
is simply adding the letter P into a box. 00:45:45
And what that will do is let us close on this sale and. 00:45:51
What I'd like to point out also is. 00:45:58
We are facing a busy St. which is probably why it was labeled C2, but on the other side of this lot. 00:46:02
Is a. 00:46:09
And so that is also kind of consistent. 00:46:11
The city's historic practice. 00:46:14
P zones being nestled in neighborhoods because that's where churches were when the city got incorporated. So I don't. And there's 00:46:17
going to be a development that you are all very well familiar with from many, many meetings and fights. 00:46:23
Right across the street. So I I think it isn't gonna really affect the master plan or? 00:46:30
That development and in fact, I think it's going to enhance the city. 00:46:38
It avoids, you know, it opens the city up more for more religious freedom by having more places where churches can be. 00:46:42
But with that I'll shut up because I get paid by the minute. So. 00:46:51
Well, now it was enjoy the the aesthetic of having a church directly across the street from a bar. I just I I find something 00:46:58
appealing about that anyway, just for one stop shopping. 00:47:03
That being said, Commissioners, any other? 00:47:09
Questions for the applicants representative at this time. 00:47:13
OK. We'll go ahead and have you sit down. Thank you. Thank you and. 00:47:16
I can define the OR add in the definition of quasi public, so I have that pulled up. 00:47:20
It's a use that is operated by a private, nonprofit, educational, religious, recreational, charitable or philanthropic 00:47:26
institution. 00:47:32
Which primarily serves the general public. So I think there are a lot of things that could fall into. 00:47:38
I believe like an application like Big Brothers Big Sisters or another nonprofit organization who's maybe doing some recreational. 00:47:44
Nonprofit use, outdoor nonprofit use. So there's a potential that when you're looking at what those uses expand into, sure, people 00:47:53
can get creative and find ways around it, but it also creates spaces for nonprofits to exist within. And there are a lot of. 00:48:01
Really great nonprofits in our state. 00:48:10
And John, did you have something I'll ad Lib here? 00:48:13
The decision whether or not to apply a rezone here or a text amendment. 00:48:19
From the staff's point of view. From my point of view, this is a long range planning. 00:48:25
Effort. 00:48:29
A public use zone. 00:48:31
And a major corridor on your highland. 00:48:34
Transit plan. 00:48:38
Is an economic driver. 00:48:40
It's not a quasi public driver. 00:48:42
A rezone to P would forever lock that zone down for quite a considerable amount of time. Time which? 00:48:45
Who knows? From my point of view, I'm my job is to think 50 to 80 years down the road. 00:48:52
We have an applicant right now that's looking for a use immediately. 00:48:59
So a rezone to P definitely would not comply with your general plan. 00:49:03
Because of the nature of this location as a commercial center, your most intense commercial zone on Highland Drive. 00:49:08
Therefore, adding this use as a supplemental use to the intensity of C2 makes more sense than a reason that was That was our point 00:49:18
of view. 00:49:22
Appreciate it. It's a good comment. 00:49:29
To put into perspective, and with that before I forget, because I have the tendency, we will go ahead and open the public hearing 00:49:32
on this if there are any members of the public that are here to speak. 00:49:39
About the text amendment that's being discussed on Agenda item 3, feel free to come up and give us your name and address if you 00:49:48
would. 00:49:52
And we'll go ahead and give a minute once, twice. 00:49:57
Go ahead, Sir. 00:50:03
Good evening. 00:50:07
I carry was my wife who calls me on the phone earlier. If you get your name and address, please. Hi Mark, my name is Martin 00:50:09
Cocker. 00:50:13
COCKE. 00:50:17
7631 Lark Meadow Cove. 00:50:19
Midvale. 00:50:24
84047. 00:50:26
And just just a quick comment in support of what you're trying to do tonight. I, my wife and I are both sponsors of the Saint 00:50:34
Germain Foundation. 00:50:39
I am activity and we have a. 00:50:45
Church per SE at 5200 S and Holiday Dr. and we've been there since 2017. 00:50:48
And just today, coincidentally, we found out we're in an RM zone and. 00:50:57
So we, you know, we. 00:51:03
Are aware of this discussion with, you know. 00:51:08
Changing things to as so that churches. 00:51:12
I exist in a commercial zone, but we're also interested. 00:51:16
That the further the idea further expands to all zones if possible. 00:51:19
It is. It would be. 00:51:26
For us to move it would be a, you know, a little bit of a problem for sure and. 00:51:29
So I think, you know, that's that's where we're at. 00:51:34
It sounds like you're it sounds like the board is supportive of engaging in that discussion in the future and. 00:51:38
We would certainly support that and appreciate. 00:51:45
My wife also wrote Carrie an e-mail today and I I noticed in her e-mail, she said. 00:51:50
Currently we are in an RM zone, which I believe was grandfathered in when holiday was incorporated. 00:51:58
And anyway so just wanted to make you aware of that and certainly supportive of the discussion in the amendment tonight. So you 00:52:05
support the the text amendment and would are are seeking that it might also be expanded into others then for your just want to 00:52:13
make sure I'm clarifying and understand where you're going with that. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. 00:52:20
The zoning that we changed, the PO. 00:52:28
So individual properties can choose to rezoned PO. The particular property where this church is located is currently zoned as RM, 00:52:32
but existing as office uses. They haven't. They applied to rezone. We approved the application to rezone that property. They 00:52:39
withdrew their application before it went to City Council for approval. 00:52:46
OK. So that's so they they still are retaining their room zone and their grandfathered uses in. 00:52:55
Within the room zone. 00:53:03
Did you have it? Did all that work? Did you appeal? And with that, if we have no other members of the public that wish to speak at 00:53:08
this time, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. 00:53:13
And Commissioners, we will now move to discussion about this. 00:53:19
For my personal take on it, I think. 00:53:24
Looking at this, current properties use as a church for the Korean Presbyterians. 00:53:29
I don't in my mind, envision this becoming a grand Korean Presbyterian temple 50 years from now. I would almost label it as a a 00:53:40
weigh station as they build their congregation, hopefully. 00:53:46
Be able to expand where they can maybe secure a larger property to accommodate more patrons. 00:53:54
And so I I don't necessarily know that this is gonna be there forever, Church, and I don't know if that's even what they're 00:54:02
interested in, but I think that makes sense with the text amendment. 00:54:07
Maybe to expand for that allowable use, just for the fact that it could become more transient in nature for some of the smaller 00:54:13
start up. 00:54:18
Congregations that are. 00:54:23
We would love to have it there for eons if it turns out to be successful, of course, but just as my mind kind of thinks as John 00:54:26
got the memories or the thought process going looking 3050 years from now. 00:54:33
So with that, I think it makes sense. I don't know if we want to. 00:54:41
Also incorporate other zones or consider other zones at this time, but I personally think that it it probably is not going to open 00:54:46
up the the Church of Acts throwing or Dennis's Rave Club anytime imminently. That's going to cause problems for us. 00:54:54
And I think if it did turn into something like that, there'd probably be enough public opinion. 00:55:03
Popping up about that that a quick reversal or adjustment might be needed in that case. 00:55:08
But with that, Commissioners. 00:55:14
Thoughts. 00:55:16
Mr. Cunningham, I want to give considerable deference to staff because that the long term plan is really the economic driver for 00:55:18
the city and that I. 00:55:23
I don't want to deal with anything broader than that tonight because I although I think it's worthy of a discussion about allowing 00:55:29
it in all zones. 00:55:33
Then I think we ought to define a church as something other than a. 00:55:37
I think a church and. 00:55:42
These other nonprofits are two different animals and we need to think about whether we want all those in all zones. And then I'm 00:55:44
willing to take the risk tonight to say, yeah, let's get the church in there and that and then have that other discussion probably 00:55:50
before the next application. 00:55:56
I think that's that makes sense Commissioner Barrett any well, I think the C2 zone does have a lot of impact just based on the 00:56:04
commercial nature of it. So I I agree with what you just said as far as the separation of the church from the recreational because 00:56:11
that does open up that's fairly broad too broad for my liking but I do appreciate where churches can be a part of most 00:56:17
neighborhoods and. 00:56:24
So that's the only reason I made the suggestion that maybe at some point staff may want to consider broadening. 00:56:32
Where this could be allowed and just make it either a conditional use so we could do the site plan review or something like that 00:56:38
but. 00:56:41
Other than that, I think this is a good proposal. 00:56:46
Mr. Prince, orphan, any comments? All right. Is anyone prepared to make a motion on this? 00:56:50
This is Commissioner Barrett I for. 00:56:58
I need to read this. Don't I think I suggest we forward a recommendation to the City Council to approve. 00:57:01
The text amendment application by the Korean Presbyterian Church of Utah, represented by David Billings, to amend Title 13, 00:57:08
Chapter 100.010 of the City of Holiday Land Use Code to allow quasi public uses as a permitted use within the C2 zone based upon 00:57:16
the following findings. 00:57:23
That quasi public uses within C2 zones accomplish the goals and purpose of the General Plan. 00:57:32
Second, they contribute to and enhance the overall community amenities and assets within the City of Holiday. 00:57:38
OK. Do you have a motion? This is Commissioner Prince. I'll second the motion. All right. And that's been seconded. So we'll call 00:57:45
for a vote. We'll come down here. Commissioner Font, aye. Commissioner Cunningham, aye. Commissioner Prince. Commissioner Baron 00:57:51
aye. And Chair Roche votes. Aye. So it passes unanimously. Appreciate the discussion on that and look forward to to seeing a new 00:57:57
establishment there. 00:58:02
Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. I do have just a brief question we've talked about this idea of. 00:58:08
Should looking at churches be considered? 00:58:16
In other zones in holiday and so I'm wondering just what guidance staff would give us. My my understanding is that the Planning 00:58:20
Commission acts when something is brought to us. 00:58:26
We don't initiate things and say we want you to go come up with a policy and bring it to us. 00:58:32
Is that understanding correct that the? 00:58:39
We're interested, but but it would have to come through staff or an applicant? Not necessarily. I think you're on the right track. 00:58:43
However, you can accompany your recommendation with a request to the council. 00:58:49
That this be looked into. 00:58:56
And then they can give staff direction to study it and then bring it back to the Planning Commission for discussion. Yes, 00:58:58
absolutely. That's sort of the proper way of handling. If you see something that's problematic in whatever you're doing, it may be 00:59:02
everything from a site plan to a text amendment. 00:59:07
You can always accompany your recommendation. 00:59:12
With sort of an addendum or with a note to the Council to request some extra steps, some studying. 00:59:15
Sure. 00:59:22
Is that something that we would have to? 00:59:25
Amend the motion that we've just made and approved. Or we could just do a secondary that wouldn't be in conjunction with your 00:59:28
motion. It would just be with a request to study this further. OK, All right. Thank you. And perhaps just going on record and 00:59:35
officially saying, you know, as a Planning Commission, we think that City Council should request further investigation into one, 00:59:43
maybe to alleviate Commissioner Cunningham and partly my own concerns of how. 00:59:50
How broadly creative someone could be getting with recreational nonprofit as a title to anything they wanted to do on any 00:59:58
property. Maybe defining a church, but then also looking to allow it to multiple zones that it would be applicable and. 01:00:06
Prevalent to be able to do so in the future. 01:00:15
Yeah. So if that's what you'd prefer, we can make note of that and send it on to the council. Yes, Then I I I would like that. So 01:00:18
do we need to make it official with some sort of a secondary motion or? I mean, we don't have our council to tell us what's 01:00:24
appropriate, but or can you guys just make a big note that we can just make a note of it? Yes, That the Planning Commission would 01:00:30
like to consider looking at the definition of churches and then where they would be, where they could be. 01:00:37
Permitted in within the various zones. So for the public record, Deer City Council post it. Note, please look at the churches a 01:00:44
little more please. Please ask us to review it as well. So OK. 01:00:50
Perfect. All right, we're having fun. We have one more. That's the text amendment. As discussed in our work meeting, we'll 01:00:58
probably spend roughly 25 to 30 minutes on this before we grow tired of it and then want to adjourn. 01:01:04
Before we move into that excitement, though, does anyone have any need for a break or are we OK to roll right into it? As long as 01:01:10
you don't mind if I stand up and stretch, then that's fine. OK We will quickly do our our knees and nose. Yeah, all right. We can 01:01:17
go ahead and get some blood flowing. And with that, we will roll forward into the text amendment. 01:01:24
For the accessory dwelling units that we have come to love, so much so with that. 01:01:32
Carrie Marsh. 01:01:38
You're on the spot. 01:01:41
Queuing things up so I have. 01:01:51
At least an appropriate showing on the screen there. All right. So this is continuation from our meeting last time we left the 01:01:53
public hearing open and with some direct points of changes to make from the previous iteration. 01:02:02
Those changes that were made. 01:02:11
Are reducing the OR limiting the Adus to lots 10,000 square feet or larger, tying parking standards that are within our code. 01:02:14
To the amount of bedrooms that are being added. 01:02:26
Let's see. 01:02:30
Limiting the height of an external accessory dwelling unit to a single level. There are some details there that can be. 01:02:32
Teased out a little bit. 01:02:41
Proposed as 12 feet, common in other cities is 16 feet for a single level, or 10 foot height. It's just to allow for a pitched 01:02:43
roof, essentially. 01:02:48
And let's see the other. 01:02:55
Change. I can't keep track of my changes on there. 01:02:59
Parking lot. 01:03:04
Oh, and then not allowing a second level being added on to existing accessory dwelling units or existing accessory buildings that 01:03:07
are being possibly converted. 01:03:12
Additional components that were added in is possibly looking at allowing accessory dwelling units or external accessory dwelling 01:03:19
units on corner lots just because of their unique lot configuration on 2 streets that may allow for. 01:03:27
An external dwelling unit, even if it is a smaller sized lot. 01:03:36
And then of course the the differences on height. 01:03:42
With that, and also considering a harder set back line for smaller lots specifically, so lots less than half an acre, you could 01:03:47
have a set limit. 01:03:53
You know at least 5 to 10 feet on a set back instead of the existing which is a 25% increase and I can pull up the the set back 01:04:00
table so you can see what that increases to. I think on 10,000 square foot lots it increases it if you were to go to 10 feet. 01:04:09
From. 01:04:19
I think 8 feet is about what it is. 01:04:21
86. 01:04:24
I'll pull it up. 01:04:25
So those are the, those are the proposed changes that we're looking at the Planning Commission and if if you wanted the simplest, 01:04:27
easiest you could just say. 01:04:31
Yeah, we only want to change this one component or you want to change no components of whatever your recommendation is to the City 01:04:36
Council. You can tailor that to whatever you feel is appropriate based off of kind of our discussions that we've had before. 01:04:44
And I think. 01:04:53
Do need to discuss the comments that each Commissioner made on the text that I emailed to each of you. I know that Commissioner 01:04:55
burnt, sorry. 01:05:01
That's OK. Yes, send some comments over. Commissioner Gong sent some comments over Commissioner Cunningham. He sent some comments 01:05:07
as well and Commissioner Font, so we can review those, each of you kind of on your own or as part of the discussion. 01:05:15
I think that is about all the changes that. 01:05:26
Mainly looking at, well with that questions, I mean all I can go sit down and we can go, yeah. So I think I'll have you sit down 01:05:29
for the ease and convenience because I don't think this is going to be a quick couple minutes. But that being said, this was a 01:05:35
continued public hearing item, if memory serves, it's still open, right? Yes. One other component too is that you asked to look 01:05:42
out how many parcels are half an acre or larger. 01:05:48
Essentially. 01:05:56
1400 around there, there's some variability in that based off of. 01:05:59
We have some parcels that. 01:06:06
A portion of them that is a separate parcel number but is not a buildable area. So commonly when we have a building permit, they 01:06:09
have to combine these lower tax parcels into one main parcel. 01:06:15
So there's likely some variability in that number. That is a pretty rough number of roughly 1400 parcels that are larger than half 01:06:22
an acre, so theoretically closer to 12 if we've got the exceptions of non buildable and other quasi weird things happening there 01:06:30
and looking at the zoning map, I think is pretty helpful as well. 01:06:38
Our larger zoned area is here. 01:06:47
You're going to have some outliers in all of the rest of the area that are larger than half an acre. 01:06:51
Obviously of your commercial, you're not going to have accessory dwelling units. So we're mainly looking at, you know here's all 01:06:58
the yellow which is R110, those are 10,000 square foot lot minimums. 01:07:03
Some of those properties may be slightly less than 10,000 square feet just based off of how they were plotted, but that is the 01:07:09
zone that they were put into. 01:07:13
This lighter red color up here is R18, so that's an 8000 square foot lot minimum. So if. 01:07:17
You were? 01:07:27
Say put or allow within the code the 8000 square foot lot minimum for an external Adu. 01:07:29
That's the amount of area that that would include. So here there's a little pocket here and just little pieces. 01:07:35
And then I think down here. 01:07:43
Looking at the zones overall, then if it was approved as two properties as low as R18, you're essentially green lighting almost 01:07:45
the entire city. 01:07:51
Right. If you were restricted to 10, you're probably closer to about. 01:07:56
5060% of the city, right. And that limiting it to 10,000 might be a good starting point to see. You know if we're looking at 01:08:03
measurable tasks that is something that could be measured of OK, if we bring our lot minimum size down to 10,000 for an external 01:08:11
Adu, how many does that produce? And then is that something that we want to allow on smaller lot sizes? 01:08:18
Or you do a corner thing, you know there's there are options there. 01:08:28
But if I think that's kind of a baseline of is. 01:08:34
Is that a component that you want to include? If so, what sort of regulations do you want to have in place to? 01:08:37
For that, if that was something that you were wanting to change. 01:08:45
Well, I just real quick while I have the thought in my head and we have Anne with us. I'm a big tree proponent and so I know 01:08:49
you're you're on the on the agenda item of educating and and looking for these additional properties. But I will say that I I 01:08:57
would be hesitant in advocating for. 01:09:04
Accessory dwelling units, especially on the larger properties and the greater Walker Woods area because I think it would be a 01:09:13
detriment to the natural beauty which is Walker Woods. 01:09:18
To strike, to start filling that up with additional structures in that area. 01:09:23
So I support the cause, but maybe the education could be focused on the lesser Walker Woods area within the city boundaries. Yeah, 01:09:27
I mean, that's a really great point. You know, there's something else that we've been talking about is finding ways to reduce 01:09:33
energy costs. 01:09:38
And you know, trees, as we know, eliminates the urban heat island effect. 01:09:44
And we all know as we drive, especially me when in the summer when I drive down Holiday Blvd. When I get just below the hill, that 01:09:49
temperature drops a good five to 10° sometimes in the summer. 01:09:55
So the effort of educating the public and planting new trees around our structures to reduce energy. 01:10:02
Costs is it would be another benefit for sure. 01:10:08
I think another component on those larger properties too that we've discussed in some of our meetings and we've had people 01:10:13
applying for guest houses or other. 01:10:18
Additions of structures on those larger properties as utility access and that can be a major barrier for a lot of property owners. 01:10:24
So it's even if they can do it, you know, utilities may be a large issue for them or what would be preventative of them from 01:10:31
building a external accessory dwelling unit. 01:10:37
Largely they they're more motivated to build a guest house. As we've seen on several of those larger properties. Our code does 01:10:43
allow for guest houses. 01:10:47
So can I ask the difference between an Adu and a guest house? A guest house is an Adu. OK, well, I thought so, but is there a 01:10:53
separate requirement or separate? 01:10:58
Option for guest houses that they are allowed where an Adu might not be is I don't, I don't. I guess I'm just confused that if you 01:11:05
classify it as a guest house, it's loud. If you classify it as an Adu that you're renting, it is not allowed. 01:11:13
So yeah, some history on what guest house the guest house was the holidays. 01:11:23
First attempt, sort of an accessory dwelling unit. 01:11:30
It was one of the very first elements when the city incorporated, but they were only limited to half acre lots or larger. 01:11:34
So that's a holdover and they didn't have any rental restrictions on them. 01:11:42
You could use. 01:11:47
However, you wanted them to really lit it for family members or, you know, rented them out primarily as a mother-in-law situation. 01:11:49
Caretakers, landscapers would live in some of these guest house cottage type situations. 01:11:58
So this will not change that, correct? 01:12:06
Right. Those property owners still, I mean the code where it allows for guest houses is if you have a property that is half an 01:12:10
acre or larger, here's your footprint size for a guest house. If you have a property that is an acre or larger, then you have a 01:12:16
larger footprint. 01:12:21
All accessory buildings, including guest houses, can apply for a conditional use permit if they want the footprint of their 01:12:27
building accessory building to be larger than what is allowed. 01:12:32
So considering external Adus that could be a component that you add on is that you're strictly limited to the footprint size that 01:12:38
is in the accessory building table, so that maybe external Adus are not eligible for a conditional use permit. 01:12:46
Whereas. 01:12:54
You know, an accessory building. So that does create some complications as well. If you have somebody who's building a detached 01:12:57
garage, that takes up a huge amount of square footage if they want to add a. 01:13:03
One bedroom unit to the side of that garage that increases their footprint because they can't go above it because of height. 01:13:10
Unless they do a flat roof. 01:13:17
Yeah. 01:13:20
A really common scenario that we have is people who want to build a detached garage and then. 01:13:22
For a unit above it, they usually have to bring that in. 01:13:28
To what the main setbacks are for a for a structure. 01:13:32
In order to get the height up to where it needs to be or they do a flat roof. 01:13:37
So I think for the efficiency of the remainder of our discussion on this, the evening, couple things. One, I think it probably 01:13:41
just be good just to kind of go through the bullets. 01:13:46
That we've outlined, But before we do that because there is still a public meeting or public hearing open on this and we do 01:13:52
actually have some members of the public here that might actually want to give a comment or two on this. I think we should pause 01:13:57
our discussion and go ahead and see if there is anybody here this evening that would like to make it as a public comment on what 01:14:02
we're discussing. 01:14:07
And then your name and address for the record, please. Yes, so my name is Brad Millis and live at 3090 E 4430 S. 01:14:17
So we are my wife, Amy and I we are. 01:14:25
I guess we support the. 01:14:31
Text changes to the Adu code we support allowing a little more flexibility with Adu. You know, rental situations providing a 01:14:33
little bit more. 01:14:39
Opportunities for moderate income housing. So we have a unique situation. We live on 4500 S. 01:14:45
You can see, yeah, carries got that pulled up. So we're in the R18 zone and we've got about 1/2 acre lot. 01:14:53
So significantly bigger than what? You know, it's zoned. 01:15:01
It's a large enough lot to subdivide, which that is our plan. And so we'd subdivide to make two lots, a front lot and a back lot, 01:15:05
and just do. 01:15:10
A driveway with an easement, so flag lot essentially. 01:15:16
So I guess the owner occupied requirement of an Adu. You know, if you've got a house with an Adu the owner occupied, I mean 01:15:19
there's no exact definition in the code for what owner occupied is. I think it's pretty, you know, self-explanatory to what that 01:15:26
means. You live in either the house or the Adu and then you're able to rent out the other. 01:15:34
Building. 01:15:42
It seems like you know the purpose of the correct interpretation. 01:15:43
So that is one thing that we are proposing adding is a more specific definition of what owner occupied is and that would be 01:15:49
another item of discussion is primary residence versus. 01:15:54
Owner occupied and that could be a policy consideration that you could pass on to City Council. If that's something that you don't 01:16:00
want to decide today, yes. What is the staff interpretation of? 01:16:06
Staff interpretation of owner occupied. 01:16:13
The point he made was about they could be in either the Adu or the primary residence and I thought that they had to be in the 01:16:17
primary residence. No, you can live in either unit so the owner can live in the Adu and rent out the the main primary. 01:16:25
Sorry to cut you off, Brad. Go ahead. No, that's fine. Yeah, great clarification. 01:16:36
So I mean, you know, it seems like the purpose for having owner occupancy with an Adu, you know, my interpretation would be to 01:16:41
have the the owner on site to manage the Adu, manage the rental, make sure you know it's well maintained. 01:16:47
So our situation, if we were to subdivide our property, we would now create two separate parcels. 01:16:55
Correct. If we were to build a house with an Adu on each of those, which we would be allowed to based on the building code. 01:17:01
We could technically only own or occupy one of the parcels because we couldn't live on both of the parcels at the same time. 01:17:10
And so that would limit us from renting out the Adu on the 2nd parcel so we could rent out the main or we would live in the main 01:17:19
home on one parcel. 01:17:24
We could rent out the Adu on that parcel. We could rent out the main home on the 2nd parcel. But we technically couldn't rent out 01:17:28
the Adu on the 2nd parcel because we technically don't meet the owner occupancy requirements. So I sent an e-mail that Carrie 01:17:34
suggesting potentially. 01:17:40
Clarifying owner occupancy, what that means and maybe having something in there that says you know if the primary, I guess if the 01:17:46
owner. 01:17:50
If the owner of the parcel lives. 01:17:55
200 feet, which is a pretty small distance. 01:17:59
Of this, you know a second Adu. In our situation, we would be allowed to rent out that second Adu. 01:18:02
Because essentially we would be on site to manage that, you know, we would be living on one parcel. 01:18:09
2nd parcel we created, you know, it's just right behind us. It's all one parcel today, so that would allow us to rent out that 01:18:17
second Adu. 01:18:21
And I guess The funny thing is, you know, we. 01:18:27
Build the house as a second house with the second Adu. 01:18:30
And then if we were to sell that parcel, then somebody else could move in and then rent it out. So it seems a little funny that 01:18:34
somebody else would be able to utilize it, but we wouldn't. 01:18:39
So we're just hoping to add some clarification, you know maybe maybe you guys in the council would be open to adding some 01:18:45
clarification to owner occupancy and and having some sort of. 01:18:50
You know ability if in our scenario for us to rent out that second Adu because we would be on site and able to manage the property 01:18:57
and maintain the property. 01:19:01
And I think, you know, the only other areas that this may apply in is let's say somebody owns a home and then they you know buy a 01:19:07
house next door, then they could technically do the same thing. But I I don't see. 01:19:13
Having this text really having widespread negative effects, you know, going against the purpose of owner occupancy throughout the 01:19:21
city. 01:19:24
You know, try to think of how many scenarios this would apply. And it seems like it would really only apply if if you own a parcel 01:19:29
right next door to your primary residence. So. 01:19:33
Or you have one large property that could be subdivided if I'm not mistaken and John, you can correct me, I think you can do a 01:20:14
duplex on an R18, right? No, no. Is that is that is that the R16? There's an R28? 01:20:20
And sorry that that's a great point ideally. 01:20:31
We would just rezone this to R2 because a house with an Adu, I mean that starts turning into that scenario anyways. 01:20:35
But from what I understand, you know, going through the rezoning process is a little complicated potentially and maybe a little 01:20:42
difficult especially if we're just rezoning you know one parcel. We do have our neighbor next to us that's also got a half acre. 01:20:48
So maybe that's that's something to consider. But ideally, yes, we would just rezone it to an R28. 01:20:54
But I feel like, you know, amending, you know, doing a text amendment with while you guys are looking at this Adu code already 01:21:01
kind of. 01:21:05
And then we'll probably have some discussions. At what point is EADU make more sense than a rezone request? 01:21:39
Based on everything for the neighborhood, but I appreciate that and unless any other commissioners had questions for you, I think 01:21:47
OK, sorry, just one last thing it the lot size is large enough when we subdivide that we, I know you guys are talking about 01:21:53
minimum lot sizes for EADUS even though we're in an R18 zone. 01:21:58
If we were to subdivide, we would have 10,000 square foot per lot, so. 01:22:03
If that ends up being the minimum, I think we would still be able to to meet that requirement. So, OK, something to consider. All 01:22:08
right, perfect. Thank you. Appreciate it. 01:22:12
Excuse me. And Chair Roach, there was another comment that every all the commissioners received today from. 01:22:19
That was received this morning, I believe. 01:22:27
So that's, I don't know if you just want to overview that comment. It was from Mr. Estrada. 01:22:31
Did you give me a copy? It's a printed copy. It's the one that is not purple. 01:22:39
They're not purple. Coming. I'm sure I've got it. 01:22:44
Yep, it's stapled. It's a two page. 01:22:48
I struggled with what he was asking us to do. 01:22:53
What on the on the 2 pages? By the end I didn't know what it was? He asked. I was fortunate to grow. Have grown up in holiday, 01:22:57
that one, Yeah. 01:23:01
It really sucks. Yeah. So they are exploring possibly adding a or they would like to add an external Adu for his parents who have 01:23:06
lived in this property to move into accessibility issues. It's, you know, I brought that up at the last meeting is that sometimes 01:23:13
people may have mobility challenges or aging in place and so building an external ad that's specially situated to their needs is 01:23:21
kind of what he's looking at as an option possibly being able to provide housing to. 01:23:29
Religious groups as they're looking for housing for various volunteers and their religious organization. 01:23:37
That's a place where external ads may may fit into. 01:23:44
Serving as kind of a lower cost apartment that's not part of somebody's home. 01:23:49
But other than changing the setbacks, that was really the only. 01:23:54
I mean, he's he's in favor of Adus. 01:24:00
Yep. So their property is .43 acres. So it is a property who can't do an external Adu. 01:24:03
Ideally that is what they were looking at doing, to build a accessible unit for parents or to provide a housing unit for. 01:24:11
Religious volunteers. So if we were to lower it down to 10, then he would be more than qualified for that, yes, yeah. 01:24:21
All of the other comments and there are kind of like here are some ideas of other things that you can do which I that's it's good 01:24:30
for discussion. I don't know if we want to bring all those into the current discussion that we're already having. All right, 01:24:34
perfect. 01:24:38
With that, should we close the public hearing at this time on this or do we, I mean we've got it's 730 now, I'm not going to go 01:24:45
past eight, I know that for sure. I guess the real question is we're going to go if if we're not going to vote on this until 01:24:49
another meeting. 01:24:54
Do we depending on what we decide before that final draft and vote? 01:25:00
Are required to continue to keep having or is the fact that we've had two open meetings sufficient? 01:25:06
If if you're considering, you're contemplating new ideas. 01:25:12
Added to this draft. 01:25:17
Other than what's been proposed by commissioners who are not here. 01:25:19
Yeah, I would leave it open. 01:25:23
But if you're just contemplating refining what you have in front of you, you might be you. You'd be safe to close your. 01:25:25
Does anyone feel like we're going to expand or deviate from the amendments to the text that are already in there with anything 01:25:32
that you've seen thus far? 01:25:36
Based on the fact that we have two Commissioners not here tonight. 01:25:42
Should we keep it open? 01:25:47
We can. We have comments from one that isn't here, so it would be just one person. 01:25:49
Or no, We got comments from both of them. They would be here to make comments at a future meeting, that's true. There's no harm. 01:25:54
But I don't think that necessarily would hurt if the public hearing was closed. And I guess we could also reopen the public 01:26:01
hearing if it came down to we decided, no, we want to go back and play with things some more, right. I think we're going to be 01:26:08
asked to because whatever the final draft is will not make everyone happy and they will ask us to again change it. 01:26:15
OK, well, we'll just leave. We'll leave the public. We'll just err on the side of caution and leave public airing open for another 01:26:22
week then. Because I don't know that we're going to land on the final tonight with the the time left. But we do want to plow 01:26:27
through as much of it as we can tonight. 01:26:32
And so with that, I think maybe if we just focus on one bullet at a time of the text and then we can just check mark and say we're 01:26:38
done with that. 01:26:41
So I think probably one of the big ones, well one of the easy ones we could probably just check off regardless of what we do with 01:26:46
the rest of it is parking requirements. So where do we have parking requirements outlined with the new table? What page that is on 01:26:54
line 26? Item number 5 is parking. So the red text If an accessory dwelling unit is being added outside of the existing footprint 01:27:02
of the home on site, parking must meet the minimums required in section 13.80, point 040. 01:27:10
Determined by the number of bedrooms in the accessory dwelling unit. 01:27:19
Does everyone feel comfortable with saying you need X number of driveway space based on bedroom rather than footprint or zone or 01:27:23
anything else? 01:27:29
Well, I think go ahead. No, go ahead. I just think. 01:27:35
Troubling to me to just allow people to park in front of the garage because that affects the flow of the traffic in the main house 01:27:39
and just take so they can get away with it. I would like to see a designated space. 01:27:45
So that there's effort made to actually accommodate. 01:27:51
Additional people who are going to be living there. 01:27:55
It's always kind of troubled me that we cut a lot of corners to get the ad use and all that in, but. 01:28:00
When it starts to affect how a neighborhood looks and feels, to me, that's a problem. 01:28:06
So did we have designated spots already? So you're concerned? I thought it was just in front of the garage. We don't have any 01:28:11
designated spots. It's just that one additional parking spot needs to be provided for an Adu, whether that's internal or external, 01:28:17
but that could be in front of the garage. 01:28:22
But to be fair, the homeowner could fill their garage with crap and park in front of it anyway, right? 01:28:31
Makes the parking kind of disappear. 01:28:38
So, like, not that I'm calling out any neighbors on my street or myself, but you know, not everybody parks in their garage, so I'm 01:28:43
just saying, like, do we? 01:28:47
Do we need to give any special consideration on the text amendment around that factor? I don't know. I'd like to if the Commission 01:28:51
would consider it if they could have a designated space that isn't necessarily a part of the current driveway. But if you feel 01:28:57
like that's OK, I'm going to go with you. 01:29:02
I mean. 01:29:09
I guess that would be the conflict there would be between the property owner who is going to be on site more than likely or 01:29:11
respective. 01:29:16
Blood relative as we get through that narrative. 01:29:22
But the property owner is going to be there, and that's their problem to workout if that's going to be something that they want to 01:29:25
allow and deal with the headache of, oh, you got to move your car so I can get out, right? Whatever configuration that is. I am. 01:29:31
You run into that with anytime you have an internal dwelling unit as well. Great. If you're renting out your basement, Where is 01:29:37
your parking space, Mr. Tennant? OK, we're going to have you park. 01:29:43
Only on this side. 01:29:50
In front of the garage and then we're going to use the rest of the garage for storage or and I'm sure code does not want to be. 01:29:52
In charge of knowing where the designated space is and when the neighbor complaints and I. 01:30:00
I see. And I've got a Paula to your point, I think you're you're right. I've, I've got a bit of a different take on it to to 01:30:08
consider. 01:30:12
One of the things we've talked about is this idea of wouldn't it be nice to bring you into legal compliance, all of these? 01:30:17
Illegal apartments that we know are out. 01:30:25
And then we can count them in our little counting of 80 use and look good for state stuff. 01:30:28
And if not that, I'm thinking of any neighbor in particular, but if this one neighbor in particular that I'm thinking of had to 01:30:35
provide a parking space in his driveway, he won't bring his unit into. 01:30:41
He won't. 01:30:48
Bring it into the light because then he'd have to give up sure spot for his boat. 01:30:50
Or whatever vehicle, recreational vehicle of the moment to shore. And you know, those residents might possibly, if I was actually 01:30:56
Speaking of a neighbor I know, park on the street. 01:31:02
And so by having parking requirements, does that going to have people say, well, I'm not going to go to the hassle of paying the 01:31:09
$25 fee and having to give up space in my driveway for my renter, I'll just let them be illegal. 01:31:17
I don't know if that's pushing people away from coming into compliance if we add that. 01:31:26
Granted, I would like all of my neighbors who have renters to have a parking space that is not on the public St. which to your 01:31:32
point is really good, but. 01:31:36
I'm not sure if it's accomplishing what the level which we would envision this code to be universally applied. You know, and. 01:31:42
And not create problems. Yeah, I think we have to just assume that people will comply with the law. Oh, forget it. Well. 01:31:49
Oh my God, you'll never be able to get an ordinance to a point where you can approve it because it'll have so many things moving 01:32:00
in. Because everyone will say no, no, no. As we've had in these discussions, we have a lot of different ideas and different 01:32:05
expectations. 01:32:09
So that's why I suggested. I appreciate what you just said because. 01:32:14
I don't know how you solve the problem. I don't. I don't know either. But I think. I think the parking issue is. I mean, for me, 01:32:19
if I think of one of my neighbors and they decide they want to put in an accessory dwelling unit behind them, what I don't want is 01:32:25
that accessory dwelling unit occupant parked in front of my driveway or in front of my house all the time because they're not 01:32:31
required to provide parking for them. 01:32:36
I just, I don't want to look at their 1970s Dotson beater that you know, they it's all they can afford because they chose to live 01:32:43
in an accessory dwelling unit and all right, so drive around the city tomorrow. 01:32:50
So, like, that's just I I think parking requirements are important. There might be some people that don't want to comply because 01:32:59
they'll have to tell on themselves and move their boat. And that's a champagne problem that I can't relate to. But I think that I 01:33:06
think it's important when we look at this from the aspect of needing to make sure that people have a place to park their tenants. 01:33:12
I don't mean to keep burdening staff with this, but have you checked with other cities how they deal with this? 01:33:20
I've seen a variety of approaches where they do have to add 1 or you can't do tandem parking. 01:33:26
For the most part, I think that neighbors are pretty aware if their neighbor has an Adu, and they're aware of what cars are 01:33:34
parking on the street consistently because we get those phone calls. 01:33:40
And so if we have a licensed Adu, that's going to be one thing that we're looking at. Oh, your neighbor has now called about this 01:33:47
car that's consistently parked there. That is they're saying is your. 01:33:52
Tenant's card Your Adu. You can't have your parking be on the streets so thus that creates a Ave. for enforcement. Just because 01:33:59
neighbors are hyper aware sometimes of street parking. I guess this is a universal problem it sounds. 01:34:07
So what? What does enforcement look like? 01:34:17
Violation. There would be fines associated possible revocation of an Adu license so they wouldn't be able to rent their Adu if 01:34:21
they're not complying with the regulations of an Edu. 01:34:26
So to your point, Chair, I think just having a designated off St. 01:34:33
Location. Papi will take care of most of this. They want to put two paver bricks in the middle of their lawn and say park there. 01:34:39
It's a driveway now. I don't care. 01:34:43
As long as it's not up on blocks, right? I have a neighbor who's done that and it's not attractive. Probably not. 01:34:50
But that being said, so are there any other concerns around parking or do we feel like this? 01:34:58
Amendment to the parking is good and we can check market and we're done worrying about the parking text amendment portion of this. 01:35:04
All in favor, good. OK, Parking check mark we have, we have moved on from parking. We're happy. Good job, Carrie. All right. The 01:35:11
next one maybe we want to just tackle this real quick now is defining the owner is that outlined in this language or is that still 01:35:18
more to come right so in the current? 01:35:24
Adu code it says the property owner living on site so. 01:35:31
Adding some clarification as to what the property owner is. 01:35:36
So property owner right now, I mean that could be a trust, it could be a LLC. So if you purchase a property, put it into an LLC, 01:35:42
that's now the property owner, so a member associated with the LLC. 01:35:49
Would then be considered the. 01:35:57
Living on site because So if you have an LLC, you have a business partner that you want to name as part of your LLC. Now they can 01:36:00
live in the house and be the owner on site. 01:36:05
3rd slumlord comes to mind when I hear this kind of thing. There's what I'm saying is that there's workarounds or family trust, 01:36:10
right? If you have a family trust, any member of that's named in that family trust then can live on site, which fairly common when 01:36:18
you have tax incentives to keep properties within families or to not sell them if you run into them. 01:36:25
Them family and birth, putting them into a trust and then possibly renting them out to other members of the family or whatnot so 01:36:32
that they're avoiding the the gains tax. So. 01:36:38
That's what you're looking at with property owner living on site. As a more vague definition so proposed is adding some 01:36:45
clarifications as to what owner occupancy is. So owner occupancy required. This is the same language that Salt Lake City has in 01:36:53
their code as to what an owner occupant is. I use this code or this. 01:37:01
Definition in home occupation as well. 01:37:10
A recommendation to City Council could include a consideration of primary residence or owner occupied. 01:37:14
Cities approach that both ways of requiring primary residence. 01:37:22
And having that specification met. 01:37:28
Or having an owner occupied. The definition that is proposed in the code is either an individual who's listed on the recorded deed 01:37:32
as an owner of the property. 01:37:38
Any person who is related by blood, marriage, or adoption to an individual who is listed on recorded deed as an owner of the 01:37:44
property, or an individual who is a trustor of a family trust who possesses legal legal ownership of the property, so that. 01:37:51
Spells out. 01:37:59
If you're on the deed, if you're a truster on the deed, or if you're related to somebody who's on the deed. 01:38:01
And the relation by blood, marriage or adoption, I believe that came from state code somewhere, but it's not in the land use code 01:38:08
it was. 01:38:13
Or there's some legal purview around what is a family relation? 01:38:20
And that's. 01:38:27
Blood marriage or adoption is a family relation. Well in Commissioner Gong and although she's not here and her e-mail did point 01:38:28
out that she was concerned about her eighth cousin being related by blood, how far delineated do you get? 01:38:35
With the bloodline, I mean, technically I'm related to royalty, but they're not going to let me live there, right? 01:38:43
Blood relation is. 01:38:50
And that might be something that legal would need to clarify, but I believe. 01:38:53
Cousin like, more immediate, like first degree relation. Yes. Yeah. So I brought the little chart. 01:38:57
Lawyers look at that and it's the whole concept of consanguinity. 01:39:04
And that and. 01:39:10
You know your children, your parents and. 01:39:12
Are really your first level? 01:39:17
And then if you go second level, that includes grand grandchildren, brothers and sisters and grandparents. 01:39:19
And then you can go third level and get into great and all that. On 4th, you get down to third cousins thrice removed. OK. And I'm 01:39:27
the one that's been pushing this saying that I still think this is too broad because we're all related to each other somehow and 01:39:35
that and and that plus you get into that whole debate about OK, how do we can approve this. For code enforcement, you have to 01:39:42
prove things, OK? And having done code enforcement and had to do that, it did it. It can be done, but. 01:39:50
You know, people lie and and you know they're like it. They're liking it. My, my father, OK, but like a father isn't a father. 01:39:58
Father has a legal definition. 01:40:08
And that and so I was just looking for more clarity. I'm OK with all of this. 01:40:10
As long as we put something that said, at what level of conscience? 01:40:15
And then OK. 01:40:20
And I agree that having that second level, because we're trying to take care of grandparents, we're trying to take care of 01:40:21
grandkids and brothers and say, I think everyone agrees that that's family. 01:40:27
You start getting into third, fourth, fifth level, I think that's OK. That's not the purpose of why we're doing it. The the goal, 01:40:33
I think as we all understand or at least I understand an Adu. 01:40:39
Is you have. 01:40:45
On his, his or her? 01:40:47
Who has a stake in making sure that the property is maintained, that the neighborhood was kept, you know? 01:40:50
Consistent with the neighborhood values and stuff and that and anytime you get outside that including unfortunately when you have 01:40:56
multiple Adus which I don't think is a concept multiple ad use that's a commercial project that. 01:41:04
And we talked about that in another meeting map. Well, how do we stop developers from building a bunch of Adus and trying to have 01:41:12
one person satisfy the ownership requirement and then build a subdivision of Adus? 01:41:19
That I don't think that is an Adu. I think an Adu is a single unit related to a single owner in a single residence. 01:41:28
Yeah. So based on that logic, she would just use level 1. 01:41:35
For the ownership part, because they then you can have the level to occupy the Adu. 01:41:39
And or even anybody, frankly. 01:41:46
So yeah because you know and that so I just wherever the line is and that if you want to be generous could be I would I'm 01:41:49
comfortable with one I think that's the intent. I think so too it's the immediate family. What we would typically think of is the 01:41:54
immediate family and then I can think of situations where. 01:42:00
The parents die and the grandparents move into the house to raise the grandchildren and that and then when the ones ready to be 01:42:08
off on their own they, you know rent it off and that. So I just, I just want a line. 01:42:14
So that we know the answer. So that level is grandparents, siblings, parents. Well second degree would be grandparent. 01:42:21
Brothers and sisters and children. 01:42:28
So if you wanted the East Coast, you know, first level is children. 01:42:31
And. 01:42:34
So I could see the value in adding that grandparent component. 01:42:37
I can see as a grandparent that if I could be in an 80, you know, at some point in my life by myself. 01:42:45
And let your kids, somebody's taking care of me and checking I'm alive every morning. 01:42:51
Yeah, they're gonna mow your lawn and they're going to take that over the retirement community. Is that what you're saying? 01:42:56
Is there so you still get into the proof issue. 01:43:02
Yeah, but I just think part of it is that people read, well, oh, I can't do this, or I can do this, Or they ask staff and then 01:43:06
staff tells them what the answer is. And I sincerely appreciate the the enforcement aspect because that's usually an afterthought. 01:43:12
It's always, hey, we're making the standard of regulation, staff deal with it. 01:43:18
As long as the bright life of case law is enforceable and it's been proven before, I love it. Yeah. And and you've already taken 01:43:25
care of the marriage and adoption, so that takes care of the step, kids and. 01:43:31
And you know and adoptions and all that other stuff at that. I I just think you have to draw a line and I think that helps 01:43:37
alleviate the concern of someone deciding to go into a neighborhood and play monopoly and they're going to buy all the houses and 01:43:43
put houses behind the houses and now they want to buy Boardwalk, right like now that's it's just like OK, I'm building this 01:43:49
accessory dwelling unit for the intent of why we want accessory dwelling units. 01:43:56
Well, I would have to agree that I I'm comfortable with the first degree and I want to look at pulse chart. So send that down this 01:44:02
way because now I'm super curious. 01:44:07
And we don't have legal here to to come to confirm on first level for that appropriately raised the issue then a family first 01:44:15
level, I'll look at that again but first level I thought first level is just. 01:44:24
Children, but then the second level, second level picks up second grandparents, grandchildren and siblings. So does it need to go 01:44:33
to second level to include grandparents? 01:44:38
I I don't understand what we're confused about because if the grandparents become the owner, they are level one again. Yeah, 01:44:46
there's a level one. Yeah, they're they're the level one and that. So someone wants the gentleman who wants to build something 01:44:53
first that that's fine because he doesn't have to have any relationship with who lives in his a EADU. It's just he has to live 01:45:00
there. I mean here here's the hypothetical, my great granddad who's 105 years old in bed. 01:45:07
Owns a property in holiday and he's going to build an Adu and I get to live in the primary residence and then he rents it out to 01:45:15
somebody. Are we blood related enough or is that just like here? I want you to go manage this property for me so I can make some 01:45:20
extra income. 01:45:24
And we're not saying who can live in the Adu, we're just saying right, but who can be the primary? Who is the owner? Who isn't 01:45:30
owner by definition, right? John correctly pointed out to me. And and and having dealt with this, also with code issues and doubt 01:45:36
about how many people constitute a family. 01:45:42
And. 01:45:49
The state law is preemptive in Utah and says that four people, they don't have to be related. They don't this, that and the other 01:45:50
and that's for a single family home. 01:45:56
Where before cities used to say, well, you can't live together if you're not married or you can't have. 01:46:01
XYZ relative because they're not a family member and that or you can't have 4 individuals renting a house or buying a house that 01:46:09
are not related to each other. 01:46:14
But that's that's AI. Don't think this runs afoul of. 01:46:20
Because that's a definition of who can live in a single family home, which is different than who can be the owner if there's an. 01:46:23
Right, so you can be an owner, you can have roommates, you can have four roommates, then rent out your Adu as long as you're the 01:46:32
owner, you live on the property, or you can live in the Adu and have a main house. 01:46:40
So what level are we landing on then? 01:46:52
Just so I can make notes first level one level. 01:46:57
Immediate family. Immediate family. Immediate family. 01:47:03
Yeah, well, that. But the definition of immediate family is different than this. And what do you do? 01:47:07
About well, if if if there's a complaint, your code has to deal with it, then they'll have to figure out how they prove that. Okay 01:47:14
that. I mean, I can't answer that. But when someone comes in and says we want to do an Adu and you say, OK, so who's the owner? 01:47:20
And you say OK and that. 01:47:25
So typically property ownership affidavits are required. Those are notarized. The notary verifies that you're on the deed as the 01:47:32
owner or that you are related. So that's where that verification and documentation would come in that we'd have a notarized 01:47:40
property ownership affidavit. And so then code enforcement then looks like, OK, are you? 01:47:49
In this. 01:47:58
And you need to prove your relation to this property owner that is notarized here. 01:48:00
So you have to prove you're the you're the son or. 01:48:06
Well and and if codes taking an option that somebody has misrepresented what their status is to get the permission for the Adu and 01:48:10
then the city is going to have to assume the burden of I'm going to let all that come out in the wash like at that point I think 01:48:16
we're just getting lost in the I'm I'm looking at the text amendment and I think what we need landed on is we need first level 01:48:22
language added in there and then we'll feel pretty good about owner definition. Is that fair? 01:48:28
So then we got like 5 minutes before I'm calling this. 01:48:36
Do we want to tackle size restriction, height restriction or non conforming without tear down rebuild? Which one of those do we 01:48:40
think we can touch in 5 minutes and maybe get headway on? 01:48:46
We'll try them all. Let's start with. I think lot restrict lot size restriction might be a bigger discussion. How about height 01:48:54
restriction? 01:48:57
Where where is that updated and in this amendment text, line 50? 01:49:02
So that's item number 5. Previously it was comply with the maximum height as per section 13.14 point 110, which is a 20 foot 01:49:07
height for accessory buildings. 01:49:12
This changes the height for Adus, limited to 12 feet when located within setbacks for accessory buildings. 01:49:18
The height may increase to match the height for the primary structure when it's located within the setbacks required for the 01:49:26
primary structure. That's the same with any accessory building. If you're building a detached garage and you want it to be 32 01:49:31
feet, you pull it in further to your property. 01:49:36
There's variability on this. Typ. 01:49:41
One single level is 16 feet when you're accounting for a pitched roof, so you could change that to a 10 foot wall height and a 16 01:49:45
foot overall height, and that would account for a pitched roof. 01:49:52
If you don't want to allow for that variability, it may be difficult for somebody to build an Adu that's 12 feet unless. 01:49:59
Flat R. 01:50:08
But that may be what you end up. 01:50:10
It's more limiting in some ways. 01:50:12
Your intrusion into maybe what the neighbors will see as a roof. 01:50:16
If you're going up to 16 feet and we want to keep it single, like this has language about single level though, right? Like they 01:50:19
put a basement, that's that's their prerogative. That doesn't count. But they cannot do a two-story behind there, right? So you 01:50:24
could just change the language to have it be just a single level. 01:50:30
Instead of having a specific height restriction. 01:50:36
Which? 01:50:39
Restrictions regulated by 20 feet anyway. So if you build a single level, maybe you have a nine foot ceiling, but then your roof 01:50:42
goes way up at it to get that 20 foot accessory building. 01:50:47
We have a practice with some people building things and then. 01:50:55
They read the code single level, OK, that's one level, it's 20 feet high, but it's one level, OK And then you come in and find out 01:51:00
that's not what the city means by one level. And they I I would just as soon say that. So when someone's thinking about this. 01:51:06
There's a number in their head. 01:51:14
That it'll be single level and maximum single level not to. 01:51:18
Thinking about what to propose or whether to start the project. 01:51:24
Not that anyone starts a project. 01:51:30
Of course, or anything in the city, but. 01:51:33
You know, I just think the more answers that are there in black and white. 01:51:36
Makes it easier to explain why we can't say yes to what they already built, right? Paul just wants lots of meetings because he 01:51:40
knows every deviation from this is going to wind up back here. So I think that changing that to height or the accessory building 01:51:46
height. 01:51:51
Or external accessory building is limited to a single level, no greater roof height than 16 feet. So then it's shorter than what 01:51:56
our accessory building height is allowed? 01:52:02
Building height. 01:52:08
Limited as well by a graduated height envelope, so you can't build really close to a property line and have your your height come 01:52:10
in. 01:52:15
As you go up in height, you have to back further away from the from the property line. 01:52:21
So say a 10 foot foot set back. If you have a 10 foot set back, you're the point that that intersects is 18 feet. 01:52:27
So if. 01:52:36
10 feet away from our property line. 01:52:37
Intersection point to your wall. Height can be 18 feet. 01:52:40
So that's another control on height that kind of pushes those buildings further away if you want to go up to a 20 foot height. So 01:52:45
do you think that simply saying? 01:52:51
A single level that because there's this other check of the graduated. 01:52:57
Height on envelope that. That covers it anyway. 01:53:03
And we wouldn't need to include. 01:53:08
Not to exceed, you know, 16 feet or 12 feet or whatever because it creates an additional standard specific for external Adus that 01:53:11
is already addressed and the height limitation that we have for accessory buildings and graduated height. 01:53:18
I don't know, John. What is your interpretation is, if we may? 01:53:26
You know, weighing those two kind of options. 01:53:31
For the only for the purpose of the existing ones. 01:53:36
Existing struct. 01:53:39
Or altogether. 01:53:41
For Al. 01:53:44
I think if you're looking at the impact on neighboring. 01:53:48
I think. 01:53:52
Having the one story is pretty much irrelevant because they're trying to get they're going to try to get bonus space up in that 01:53:54
upper level anyway. 01:53:57
And by building code definition, that's going to be defined as a second level. 01:54:01
So if a zoning code conflicts with whatever boning like, small bonus space you put up there with dormers. 01:54:06
Restricts that now you have a conflict of interpretation of building code compared to zoning ordinance. 01:54:12
But if you're looking at massing, how big is the structure going to be and how impactful it might be next to properties? 01:54:18
Changing that notion of graduated height. 01:54:26
Because the same standard is used for primary buildings as is used for accessory buildings. 01:54:29
You stand at the property line. You measure 8 feet up. 01:54:35
Throw this imaginary line 45° into the site. 01:54:38
Primary building is going to be much larger in scale and your accessory building will be so. 01:54:42
It might be possible to recommend that that be changed. 01:54:46
That that variable be changed from 8:00 to like 6 feet. 01:54:50
High You're looking at accessory. 01:54:54
The pole Hyde or the measurement is only 6 feet. Then you throw that line of 45°. That will dramatically drop the height. 01:54:57
Because we're looking at shorter setbacks, we're looking at shorter heights. 01:55:05
That's the impact at this property line rather than overall height. You can keep your overall height at 20 feet, but then. 01:55:09
To restrict massing at property lines, it could be a different dimension. 01:55:16
Rather than eight than six feet. 01:55:20
Or something else? 01:55:22
I think for me a large draw and a reason why this is important to get it right in this text is. 01:55:23
I look at R18 and R110 properties and I think to myself, OK, I live in one of these and my neighbor decides they want to build 01:55:30
this accessory dwelling unit. How high is that house they're building in the backyard going to be and how much of my Mount Olympus 01:55:36
and holiday forest that I get to see going away for? 01:55:42
Two stories or excessive pitch, roof, etc. So anything that can minimize that impact. 01:55:49
And that's that's what I'm for, if you're looking for that. 01:55:57
Graduated height and footprint size. 01:56:02
Are the two main factors OK? 01:56:06
I think we need to look at some facts in addition to the height because I don't think they are separate. I think they go hand in 01:56:08
hand and one affects the other. 01:56:12
And so I think our discussion probably should be broadened a little bit to allow the set back discussions part of this. 01:56:16
As you look at the other cities that the staff has interviewed and looked. 01:56:23
A lot of them have just gone with the external adus is the same as the primary structure and that takes care of your R18. 01:56:28
And that takes care of your smaller lots because they don't have a lot big enough. But it does allow for a be using most of the 01:56:37
properties. 01:56:41
So to me, I don't want to see an ad. You become the thing that redefines what a neighborhood looks like and feels like, right? 01:56:46
That should be a compliment to the area. 01:56:51
And so that's why I'm worried about having some of these existing accessory buildings that are at 3 feet. 01:56:56
And then they come in for a. 01:57:04
Now what do we do? We've got real problems then, because that really goes against, I think, what we're trying to achieve with 01:57:07
this. 01:57:10
Just have two lists, illegal and legal ideas. Well, or maybe do you do you write the code in a way where it's like, you know, new 01:57:14
structures this standard? 01:57:20
Legal non conforming structures this standard. 01:57:26
Like any existing one would have to be either torn down or rebuilt. 01:57:30
To meet the new code. 01:57:34
Because again, I think I do have a garage that's three feet from my actually it's on the property line. 01:57:36
That is a real. 01:57:43
It has affected. 01:57:44
Kind of the feeling of that part of the neighborhood, so. 01:57:46
I'm kind of. I don't. 01:57:50
Let's say 5. 01:57:55
So, so how do we so? How do we resolve the height? Do we have to include the setbacks with that? 01:57:57
This is a broader discussion that needs. 01:58:03
So I think looking at graduated height, using John's example of reducing that, how graduated height is measured, reducing that to 01:58:06
six feet instead of eight feet. So same example with a 10 foot set back, your intersection point is now 16 feet instead of 18 01:58:14
feet. And that may address you know your even if you're you can go up to 20 feet, it still would have to come back a little bit 01:58:22
further just by lowering that graduated height to measuring point to six feet versus 8 feet. 01:58:30
Unless we make the set back 10. 01:58:38
That's where the starting point. Then you can start to graduate from that point. That's why I'm saying maybe a larger set back 01:58:41
helps us to kind of eliminate some of the concerns we're talking about. 01:58:46
Yeah, I mean, that's a good point you can have. I mean, this is a completely different animal. 01:58:52
Why we need to have apply the same standards for existing structures because we haven't even gotten into lot sizes. We're ready to 01:58:56
to to green light on this yet. We're just talking about how how big do we want to see these houses get built if we go smaller and 01:59:02
smaller with lot size. And we we routinely let people know if they want additional height in their accessory buildings, whether 01:59:08
it's a pool house or garage or whatever it might, whatever it is. 01:59:14
They can pull into the building footprint of the primary home. 01:59:21
They can get extra height, there's the footprint doesn't restrict. 01:59:25
But it could be 30 feet or more away from the rear property line or. 01:59:30
10/5 to 10/15 feet away from the side property lines. 01:59:34
Yeah, the example in the staff report with Salt Lake Citys approaches. You know there is a 17 feet as you. 01:59:38
Further away from the property line. The difference is their set back is 3 feet, but you could have your starting point be 01:59:47
further, so say 10 foot set back. 01:59:51
16 feet. 01:59:56
And as you move further away from that into the main area that would be required for a structure, you go up to 20 feet, 10 feet, 01:59:58
right? Like you're starting looking up at the 45 would be 6 feet. 02:00:04
After you go in the 10, right? So I'm making sure I got the numbers right in my head. It's not 16 feet high at 10 feet. 02:00:11
OK, I think that. 02:00:20
Alleviates my concern. How does everyone else instead or planning can feel about that? 02:00:22
As far as I think there's keeping the levels within scope, yeah, So can we get that updated then to to reflect? 02:00:28
6 feet at 10 and we do want 10 is the minimum. 02:00:37
Well, that's that's a discussion we probably still need to have because, but that sounds like where we're at at this instant. I 02:00:42
think that's a good start. It's a good place to be in 10 set back, all right. That's what we're going to put on for the next one 02:00:47
and then height restriction based on set back. 02:00:53
So we feel pretty good about height, it's just the set back. So what we're looking at left on this to move forward because I'm 02:01:01
calling it, it's 808. 02:01:06
Unless y'all just really want to stay here all night, lights, lot size restrictions, non conforming and minimum 10 foot setbacks 02:01:12
or some of the details to still iron out on this, what else am I missing? 02:01:18
Possibly a consideration for corners. 02:01:26
To what? 02:01:29
Different. What will be different with corners aside from the extra egress? 02:01:32
Allowing the smaller Watt. 02:01:37
To qualify for an external Adu based off of it being a corner lot. So that's if you're. 02:01:41
Cutting it off at 10,000 square feet, there's an extra allowance for smaller lots based off of a corner. 02:01:48
Can you explain to me how the set back happens on the secondary St. 02:01:56
Frontage where they can put the wall or can they bring the wall all the way to the sidewalk on that? I think we'd still maintain a 02:02:01
20 foot set back even for accessory buildings. So if that I mean to me that would probably be enough wouldn't it? For a corner, 02:02:08
corners have a 20 foot set back from the street, so your your external or potential external Edu on a corner is set back 20 feet. 02:02:16
That's usually like where you know a driveway would be. Driveways are about 18 feet long. 02:02:23
And then your building would be typically right at that 20 foot mark. 02:02:31
So smaller setbacks if it's a corner lot, but still. 02:02:36
10 feet back from a neighboring. 02:02:40
So looking at a corner here. 02:02:43
20 feet back on this side. 02:02:46
And then it would still have a 10 foot set back on this neighboring property. 02:02:49
OK. All right. Any other discussion points to to move into the next EADU discussion that we're just coming to love and we're going 02:02:54
to, we're going to beat this horse right into the ground and City Council's going to love it because we've done all the work. 02:03:00
So, all right. So sorry, Chair Roach, just to clarify on the height. 02:03:09
Changing the graduated height to the six foot, 6 foot at, 10 foot in and 10 foot set back right now. Tentatively minimum 10 foot 02:03:15
set back. 02:03:20
And we'll iron that one out in the next meeting. If anybody feels like that should be different, I'll include in the staff report 02:03:27
what the setbacks are currently so that you have that specifically to compare. 02:03:32
Perfect. Any other questions around EADUS or anything else before we move to adjourn? 02:03:38
We do. We do have to do. We have to. We have to have a motion to continue, right, Because it's public. This is Commissioner 02:03:47
Prince. I motion that we continue the discussion of external. 02:03:51
Accessory dwelling units to our next meeting. 02:03:55
All in favor, Say aye, Aye. 02:03:58
Motion passes unanimously. Thank you very much. With that motion to adjourn. All in favor, say aye. 02:04:01
All right. Thank you. 02:04:06
And thanks for spending your Tuesday evening with the plan. 02:04:13
This one. 02:04:17