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Are we starting with training? 00:00:01
Oh, OK, I thought we put it after, but. 00:00:04
That. 00:00:07
Yeah. 00:00:09
Well, you're already up. Unless anyone's opposed, I'm fine with getting the training out of the way first, unless anybody. 00:00:16
Got concerns with that. Do we need to call the order meeting to order? Can we just jump right into training first? 00:00:23
Right. OK. Well, then it is 6:01 PM. 00:00:30
On January. 00:00:36
9th Does that sound right? 00:00:38
I only looked at the date 12 times today. Yeah, January 9th, 2024 on this holiday. City Planning Commission. We have all members 00:00:41
in attendance. 00:00:45
Along with City staff Kerry Mash and Brad Christopher, some legal counsel who is going to start us off today with training. 00:00:50
Gary, let's jump to. 00:00:59
So we're going to go over general powers and duties. I have at least one hour of that every year. If we can jump in, it doesn't 00:01:10
have to limit to that, but we're going to call this our one hour of general powers to. 00:01:15
Administrative legisl. 00:01:23
So. 00:01:27
I think it's advancing, but the numbers. 00:01:31
So the next one. 00:01:35
Oh, I see. 00:01:40
All the bullets, there we go. 00:01:42
So Atlanta's decision you want to make? 00:01:44
You said the 2nd. 00:01:51
You just put the cursor in the middle of those two screens and slide that bar over to the right. So. 00:02:01
Your next slide is a much smaller preview. 00:02:09
It was there in the. 00:02:13
So a land use decision is means legislative decision enacted by ordinance. 00:02:19
Resolution, specification, fee or rule that governs the use for development. The plan. 00:02:25
Includes the adoption of the minimum zoning. 00:02:30
Code does not include. 00:02:34
Decision Legislative body acting as the land use authority. 00:02:36
Decisions expressing resolution. 00:02:40
Or a temporary revision. 00:02:43
This is usually City Council does land use decisions. 00:02:46
Thank you. 00:02:54
Decision is what you guys usually do. 00:03:00
Right. 00:03:03
There you go. An administrative decision is typically what you guys handle based. Don't be legislated because you're not. 00:03:07
Lawmaking body for a decision making. 00:03:14
And. 00:03:17
Basically an authority that Utah allows for city council's to grant. 00:03:17
Do the duties that they. 00:03:23
So typically, language decision is a decision on a land use permit. 00:03:26
Use application or potentially. 00:03:30
The other type of land use, so there's three different. 00:03:44
So there's land use regulations, there's land use decisions, and then there's land use appeals. 00:03:48
Bills can go before hearing officer. 00:03:52
They can go before. 00:03:57
Adjustment. 00:04:01
Volunteers. 00:04:05
Much as yourselves. 00:04:06
To hear appeals of language decisions. 00:04:08
One of the reasons that a lot of cities that move away from. 00:04:14
Is they are typically very. 00:04:18
Not very objective. They make decisions based on. 00:04:23
How they feel and if they know the person. 00:04:27
So they've got to have a little more structure. 00:04:33
Most cities, especially larger cities, they're going to have a little more structure and have a hearing officer. 00:04:37
Usually. 00:04:41
One side note on that. 00:04:51
Those are a lot less likely to be. 00:04:54
And although the expense of preparing for them is higher. 00:04:58
The cost overall is lower. 00:05:02
Oftentimes when you get a subjective decision from a board. 00:05:05
So, OK, we're not going to get into all the appeal standards. 00:05:21
Land Use and Development Management Act. That's. I don't know if it's Title 10, Chapter 9. 00:05:31
Regularly. 00:05:48
A lot of those, especially in the. 00:05:50
Decade. There's been a lot. 00:05:54
That's been a lot. 00:06:02
Special interests that are heavily involved in. 00:06:03
And they've been successful. 00:06:10
So lagma is. 00:06:16
It grants authority to say May about its own land use standards, so long as they're consistent with federal and state law. 00:06:18
Mandates the creation of Planning Commission. 00:06:24
And the establishment of land use and. 00:06:28
Also requires and it depends on the population, but there. 00:06:32
As the city grows in population. 00:06:40
The more. 00:06:43
Animal deployments in general. 00:06:46
Adoption, general planning process, considering decision applications has to be laid out so the cities can follow. 00:06:54
Property owners. 00:07:01
OK. Next slide on general themes, so Blood money in general. 00:07:04
Require cities to respect private property rights. Cities are allowed to regulate private property. 00:07:09
Once written and established. 00:07:16
Courts. 00:07:23
Heavy-handed when it comes to cities and following. 00:07:25
I'd like to just ask real quick how. 00:07:32
Oversight is there from city versus state when it comes to property, right? Is it about? 00:07:35
5050 or new cities have way more. 00:07:40
Things they tack on to private property rights that the state does. 00:07:43
Well, so the. 00:07:47
The state is the sovereign and then. 00:07:50
Allow counties to do some of that so the state doesn't get into land use decisions. 00:07:53
Very often except. 00:07:58
Well, they give a little bit of land use authority to school districts. 00:08:01
Basically, you can come in in the school district. 00:08:05
School district wants to buy property and put up a. 00:08:07
So because they're also a political subdivision, a special subdivision. 00:08:16
Of the state separate, they're not governed by. 00:08:20
It can be like Murray, for example. They used to be close, more closely related. 00:08:24
They are. 00:08:30
But then the count is unincorporated. Property counting would be the land use authority there, but cities are the land use 00:08:35
authority. 00:08:38
So what I think maybe your question is. 00:08:45
Is the state historically cities have had. 00:08:50
Basically complete authority over anything within their borders. 00:08:54
You know, subject to. 00:08:57
Federal law can't. 00:08:59
And, you know, treat people differently. 00:09:00
But. 00:09:08
We're all getting the whatever work. 00:09:12
It's going to snow, OK? 00:09:19
State grants counties and cities the authority to do. 00:09:25
To regulate and. 00:09:29
In the last four or five years, maybe. 00:09:31
A lot of lobbying efforts have gone into. 00:09:37
Those rabbits. 00:09:44
Housing product. 00:09:47
Younger, growing. 00:09:51
Less money. 00:09:56
You know, a generation that can afford, you know? 00:10:01
Half $1,000,000 house. 00:10:04
Ten years ago, Half million dollars. 00:10:07
Would buy you a nice place and. 00:10:10
Do they have a? 00:10:14
So traditionally, cities are like 9095% deciding what's going on. Just stay oversight and county oversight. 00:10:20
You're the land authority. You guys can regulate how you want, and your council and your elected officials can decide that and set 00:10:29
policy limits. And here's what you do. That's your job. We're not giving policy. 00:10:33
There's a lot more push. 00:10:38
Special interests and builders, Developers that want. 00:10:43
Limit and make it make it more uniform across cities. 00:10:46
They want to have the process and holiday be the same as in Magna would be the same as in. 00:10:50
Errors Ability to St. Syracuse IN Farmington so that they don't have to. 00:10:55
You know, pay somebody. 00:11:00
Understand what the compatible process is. 00:11:03
They're not that different. There's slight nuances, but there's not. 00:11:06
They're not TER. 00:11:10
Some some have preliminary concept preliminary. 00:11:12
Final flight approval somehow just. 00:11:16
Concept and. 00:11:19
But it's not. They're not that different. There's some minor differences. 00:11:23
If there's a land use ordinance, that's written poorly or written in a way that leaves open multiple interpretations. 00:11:34
The applicant gets their interpretation. 00:11:44
So if there's more than one way to interpret it. 00:11:48
The tie will go to the applicant. 00:11:52
One of the other things that. 00:11:55
That we've seen is. 00:11:58
You know, oftentimes application and this is with any. 00:12:02
And it will. 00:12:06
Relatively newer than the code. 00:12:07
Prohibited specifically. 00:12:09
Therefore it's per. 00:12:11
So. 00:12:14
Wait a minute. You could do this. This is ridiculous. Well, it's not. You didn't regulate. 00:12:18
They can do it. 00:12:27
So that does create some problems, yeah. Can I ask a question about that? Because it feels like a lot of times the. 00:12:30
The thing in contention. 00:12:38
Like the? 00:12:41
We're often dealing with is what it means to have like an impact, like the home based business stuff. 00:12:43
To have an impact above normal residential. 00:12:49
And it feels like right. And so is that, I mean is that this thing where if somebody says. 00:12:53
I invite 20 people to my house on a weekend party. 00:12:59
That's my residential use. 00:13:02
My business use is much less. I mean, at what point are they saying this is how I'm interpreting it? And we say, oh, OK, it's your 00:13:04
interpretation because that's great. That one's a little more nuanced because. 00:13:10
You can have. I mean, there's kind of a community standard, right? 00:13:17
Engineer, City Engineer. Standpoint. 00:13:24
A typical residential home single family will generate about 6:00. 00:13:26
Vehicle trips in and out. 00:13:31
That's A and it would be the average. 00:13:34
Parents and future was the average family 3.4 people or something like that. 00:13:39
More than the 2.1 national. 00:13:47
And it's going down. 00:13:50
3.4 if I remember it, but that might be three or four years old, but my reflection is about 3.4 and so that house will generate. 00:13:53
About 6 strips per day if. 00:14:01
For those, you know, two of them were teenagers or close to adults, are driving 4 drivers, you're going to have more than six 00:14:04
trips a day. 00:14:07
But again, that's for a short period of time. 00:14:11
Lifespan for. 00:14:14
Relatively speaking and. 00:14:16
Those teenagers become adult. 00:14:20
Two person household for a time. 00:14:27
So when you get into questions of what kind of impact is this particular issue have or this particular application have? 00:14:30
Or on a neighborhood. 00:14:38
We go into that analysis when we have a conditional use, right? So if it's a permitted use. 00:14:41
The City Council's already decided that that's fine. Go ahead and have that. 00:14:46
Used in that. 00:14:50
But when it's a conditional use permit, we're allowed. 00:14:53
Conditional uses the reasonable conditions. 00:15:06
Have to be related to the impact it's having on the neighborhood. 00:15:10
Right. 00:15:15
The for example the. 00:15:16
Yes, that's having an impact on. 00:15:24
What is it typically, the impact? Well, it's people. 00:15:27
Potentially in front of somebody else's house. 00:15:30
It's on public. 00:15:33
That is really. 00:15:35
If they're parking at the edge of that corner. 00:15:38
We talked about this. 00:15:41
But if they're parked at the corner, that's a safety issue, right? 00:15:43
So we need to make sure. 00:15:47
Is in clearview is when you approach an intersection you have to be able to see there's sight lines. 00:15:49
Allow you to be able to safely get into that intersection, see if cars are coming and not having that, that's what. 00:15:55
Where we have those. 00:16:02
The requirement can't put a fence. 00:16:04
It's. 00:16:07
So that's one of the issues that we have to make sure that we're not creating a condition that creates a safety issue and so we 00:16:14
need to mitigate it mostly to mitigate it. 00:16:18
Is that was required on the street or sorry off street parking? 00:16:22
So are we basically saying the policy concern is, are we saying, well, some homes are allowed to have? 00:16:31
Businesses, but not that. 00:16:37
Because of. 00:16:39
Right, right. 00:16:42
So that's basic. So are we getting into that level of detail? We typically don't. 00:16:44
And we you saw last week, we saw the. 00:16:50
This week, that's what we're doing today, is the parking regulations. 00:16:54
How? 00:16:58
One of the things is this is a public St. 00:17:00
So, contrary to most people's beliefs in public, St. in front of their house does not belong to them. 00:17:04
It just doesn't. It is a public right of way, and the public has a right to use it. 00:17:11
And. 00:17:18
In most jurisdictions, that includes parking on the street. 00:17:20
A lot of. 00:17:25
Kind of aesthetic concerns. 00:17:27
With parking in front of my house, we also know that that creates. 00:17:30
Neighborhood disputes when you're parking so many parks in front of. 00:17:35
Your house all the time. 00:17:39
So that's something to take into account, but. 00:17:42
The conditions that you're putting on need to be reasonable in a conditional use permit. 00:17:46
It's better to say permitted with conditions than it is to say conditional. 00:17:52
Because if the council has listed a table of uses that are conditional use. 00:17:57
That means they're. 00:18:03
So long as the impact that they. 00:18:05
Can be. 00:18:08
With conditions. 00:18:10
And so the tools that you have at your disposal of disposal. 00:18:11
And we have Austria arguments. 00:18:15
That's one of the other ones is hours of operation. It mitigates. 00:18:19
The number of people that are. 00:18:23
One of the things that we've seen is a huge increase since COVID and people looking for home a lot more. 00:18:25
Code enforcement complaints have gone up. 00:18:33
Across the board, almost every. 00:18:36
Because people are home and they see what's happening. 00:18:38
And they didn't use. It bothers them now. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get into the specifics, but OK, So what you're saying here 00:18:41
is. 00:18:45
There's a community standard and so if applicants interpretation is way left, you know sort of left field of the community 00:18:51
standard that. 00:18:55
The lid. 00:19:00
OK. 00:19:04
Amended all the time, both in the state and. 00:19:07
And then they said. 00:19:20
Cascade. 00:19:23
Well then, councils can amend a lot at any point if it's a land use regulation. 00:19:27
That has to be reviewed by. 00:19:32
Before the Council. 00:19:36
Doesn't the city also have to provide means by which they can mitigate mean? 00:19:39
If off street parking or however the parking is going to be interpreted these days, the city has to provide a way for the 00:19:45
applicant. 00:19:49
To be able to mitigate. 00:19:53
So, well, so that one, right? 00:19:56
The one that we've been working with is really hard with the way it's currently written. 00:20:01
Which is one of the reasons. So do we have to provide a way to mitigate GET? The Council has set policy forces if these uses are 00:20:05
permitted with conditions. 00:20:09
They require relation of these permits. That's a. 00:20:13
Then I'm trying to think of. 00:20:16
Of a situation where the answer is. 00:20:21
I can't think of 1. 00:20:24
Let's say restaurant outside. You know they're going to do dining on the sidewalk or something. 00:20:25
And there's additional parking required because. 00:20:31
The parking requirement typically is based on the interior space. So now you've increased the size of your business and that 00:20:35
requires your conditional use permit if you're going to do that. 00:20:41
And I don't know why I was getting these conversation and forget what I was thinking, but there has to be some way to mitigate. 00:20:47
The city. So if the city wants additional any requirement additional the city has to also provide a way by which. 00:20:57
The applicant can mitigate, it's not just an arbitrary. 00:21:04
It should not be standard, correct? Yeah, it should be, but it has to be also reasonably related to the condition. 00:21:08
And the impact that you're? 00:21:14
Right, so. 00:21:18
We don't want people coming all hours a night. 00:21:19
Yeah, additional parking is a good example of if you're going to have. 00:21:24
And maybe it's additional parking for seasonal because at this time of the year, OK. 00:21:28
OK. 00:21:35
And then you also one of the other things you have to have a wider side. 00:21:37
To safely allow the public to walk by. 00:21:41
I know there was. I don't remember there was. 00:21:46
It was. The copper kettle was. 00:21:50
And copper onion. Yeah, copper onion, copper kettle. 00:21:55
Owned by the same company, but like the copper kettle and the copper kitchen, we can't afford to go to those places. 00:22:01
I remember going through, I remember having to deal with that, their request to have. 00:22:07
A patio area in front so that. 00:22:13
Process. 00:22:17
So the Commission is fairly limited on use permits, conditional use permits. 00:22:20
The limitations are it's permitted with reasonable conditions to eliminate the impact. 00:22:26
That's gone through, that's gone through the court system. 00:22:32
In fact, it went through the court system and it used to be. 00:22:36
It used to be conditional use. 00:22:40
If we allow it, you can't just use it. It's not permitted. If we decide we want to have that, then we can conditionally. 00:22:43
Now it's that's gone through the court system. There's no subjectivity whatsoever conditional use. 00:22:52
Well, the only subjectivity. 00:22:58
You have to tie your. 00:23:01
To what it is you're trying to do. 00:23:03
I see. So if it's traffic, you're trying to mitigate it, we want to make sure there's no Clearview violation on the street so 00:23:05
people can get through. 00:23:08
Then the condition has to be OK You can't park in front of your street in front of your house because it violates the clearly 00:23:13
provisions or traffic ordinances so you can park. 00:23:18
The Neighbors house. So I'm sorry to keep this conversation. 00:23:24
What are we basing the standards for home businesses, The traffic generation, to the home business? 00:23:28
In addition to the typical traffic generation within the house. 00:23:34
So are we saying any twice as much or city staff, I think it regulates that. I don't think we regulate it that way well. I'm 00:23:41
curious just to know how you've determined how much additional parking is we're going to be required? 00:23:48
For a home business. 00:23:55
So I know most of the home businesses we limited to one employee at most. 00:23:57
Well, that's if you have an employee coming. But let's say you have 50 people coming every day to your house. That's a significant 00:24:03
change in the residential character. 00:24:08
But but that's an exaggeration. But I'm looking at how much. 00:24:17
Is the break point by. 00:24:22
We say that's too much traffic. 00:24:25
Does this make sense? And I know, I know you can't say how much. 00:24:27
I don't know the city that regulates it in a way that says OK, here's and maybe that's something that. 00:24:33
To be considered, but a typical residential loan generates. 00:24:38
Residential trips per day. Six vehicle trips per day. 00:24:43
Right, so. 00:24:47
That's 12 cars. 00:24:49
Right, one in. 00:24:51
2. 00:24:53
But if you look at daycares, daycares are allowed statewide. 00:24:56
And they're regulated by the state. You can have up to 8. 00:25:01
Kids without and if you go to 12, then there's some additional restrictions and additional. 00:25:05
Items you have to meet but. 00:25:12
A minimum of 24 trips. So we don't have a standard by saying you have to be within this margin. 00:25:15
OK, so there will be a lot of subjectivity as far as how much parking we ask for. 00:25:23
Yes or not. Ask for yes. 00:25:28
We talked about this at times. My kids go to. 00:25:33
So you're part of the trouble. 00:25:39
Make sure you're taking them back. 00:25:42
I'll tell you. 00:25:53
At this their teacher this at the end of the cul-de-sac. 00:25:55
And they have, I mean, they have a large yard, but there's multiple homes on that cul-de-sac and so they have. 00:25:58
You know, a tiny wedge of frontage and then it goes way out like that. 00:26:04
So there's like 5 homes in this circle. 00:26:09
But they all have 30 feet of frontage at most, and with it, that includes their driver. 00:26:12
You know their approach and. 00:26:17
Oftentimes there are people waiting when they back in because that's the only way they could be in front of the house and not 00:26:20
block driveways. 00:26:23
So, you know, back into the curve right there. 00:26:27
I mean, the city doesn't want to get into a safety issue either, dropping kids off. 00:26:31
So I'm just kind of trying to go through the process of how staff kind of comes to the conclusion of what we would typically need 00:26:36
to ask for. 00:26:40
Obviously it will be based on the business, right, based on the type, whether it's permitted or not. 00:26:45
And so some cities will even put kind of a savings clause. If your business does not appear in this list, then it is prohibited. 00:26:52
So we don't get into that. 00:26:56
You know, if we don't regulate it. 00:27:01
Then the applicant can do it. OK, it's kind of a catch all provision the savings clause, right? 00:27:03
Come on. Oh well, you fall into this category. Let's just so you don't forget. 00:27:10
Almost seems like it's a case by case basis. 00:27:15
You know it's where is. 00:27:18
Home You know what? What are the? 00:27:21
Lines. 00:27:24
Yeah, I mean, not everybody's on a corner, right? The majority of homes are not on corners. So those. 00:27:26
Fewer import, but if we had a business in a home based business and holiday that was on a cul-de-sac. 00:27:32
With 30 feet of frontage. 00:27:38
Including the. 00:27:41
And it was a. 00:27:43
You know. 00:27:46
That's a big impact, but part of the way that. 00:27:48
I think the legislature also. 00:27:54
You know you can't say no to their character. 00:27:57
Right. You can reasonably regulate them, but you can't say we're not going to help. 00:28:01
No, but don't we have to consider neighbors? Don't we have to consider the impact of parking and traffic and so forth? 00:28:05
You could consider it, but that doesn't mean you can say no. 00:28:16
That's that's the hard part with conditional use. How do we permit what conditions? But what conditions do we? 00:28:20
So in that particular situation, you would have to have kind of like a. 00:28:29
Kind of a graduated or. 00:28:34
You know 15. 00:28:36
Yeah, traffic though. Drop your kid off at this window and so you show up and you're only so you can't have 30 cars show at once. 00:28:38
You got to have a drop off stagger, drop off time. I mean, that's a condition. 00:28:45
Is reasonable. 00:28:50
Or or the situation. 00:28:51
And then we wait for neighbors to complain, and then we have a code enforcement issue. 00:28:55
And it's a safety issue. 00:29:02
And I think that's where your. 00:29:04
You have the ability in your code to make modifications. 00:29:07
Was switching your conditional uses to be business licenses. 00:29:13
Regulated through a business licensing and they expire every year. So if there are issues with it, there's an opportunity to say, 00:29:17
oh, we've been having these issues, let's modify the code to address these specific issues. 00:29:25
But they won't continue indefinitely. So then every year they're renewing their business license, they have to comply with the new 00:29:33
standards if we add more standards to that section of code. 00:29:39
And the change is recommended. To move it to a license to a person and not to the land is a great decision and that because 00:29:44
someone has something that was approved 20 years ago or 30 years ago. 00:29:51
Without any review and. 00:30:00
You know, well, they still have to be continually used that way, right? Yes, Right. Right. But if you have the continuous use, but 00:30:02
the burden would be on the city to show the use has changed and they had good luck, I remember. Yeah, you know, in South Jordan 00:30:08
was a farming community, okay. And there's lots of interesting uses that. 00:30:15
Kind of continued, but they EV. 00:30:22
Yeah, they evolved. 00:30:24
Yeah. So the switch to code is a somewhat more dynamic or more there's more opportunity to change the code and then bring those 00:30:28
conditional or the home occupations into compliance every year. 00:30:35
I mean, I like the whole concept in that and then a year from now. 00:30:44
Find out what we forgot to put on the prohibited list or whatever else in that. But that's OK, that's how the process works. And 00:30:47
that. And then next year it can be on the list. When their license expires and it doesn't run with land anymore, you can, at least 00:30:53
over time, keep up with what's happening. 00:30:59
They might, yeah. So they would have to meet the same standards. 00:31:07
Right. But if they ever discontinue? 00:31:12
Then they'd have to review or evaluate it. So you mentioned the idea of a safety clause savings clause. If it's not included, it's 00:31:15
prohibited. Yeah. 00:31:19
Going to our next item, the amendment that we're going to consider later tonight, do we have a savings clause in that one? 00:31:25
No. 00:31:33
The problem will we OK, you have to come up with an exhaustive list of what is permitted. 00:31:36
It's much easier to come up with a list of 15 or whatever we came up with so far. 00:31:42
And that and that, But to come up with all of the things that we think are out there that are OK would be a very exhaustive 00:31:48
process. 00:31:53
I don't know if it's a downside, but one of the consequences to having a savings clause in there that says if it's not listed. 00:31:58
Then anytime everybody comes. 00:32:07
That's on that list and oh, we didn't think about that. We'll have to have a legisl. 00:32:09
Change so. 00:32:13
That's not I mean. 00:32:15
You can say, you know, consider a savings clause that if it's not on this list, it's prohibited. 00:32:20
Recommendation consider that it would be appropriate. 00:32:25
So is there a revocation clause in this? 00:32:32
The neighbors continue to complain about a business just because the business isn't really very thoughtful of the neighbors. So if 00:32:35
it's if it's in violation of their conditions, yeah, you can. There's a revocation process of their license. 00:32:42
But that means you have to put in all the conditions that they. 00:32:49
Be mindful of where they parked the cars and. 00:32:53
That they're not making noise and. 00:32:57
The other things is you like to think. 00:33:01
That. 00:33:03
If you're a Coachella teacher or whatever music teacher. 00:33:05
You would want to be a good neigh. 00:33:12
Well, I think you're, oops, sorry, common sense, but I know some businesses don't use, you know. 00:33:15
They treat the their business like business and don't care about the neighbors. Yeah, I mean if I'm if I'm having that kind of 00:33:22
impact on my neighbors. 00:33:26
You know, hey, rather than wait, I know, but can you wait down the street that? 00:33:32
Fresh Market or whatever. Can you can you go away somewhere else, come back and meet your child? Just. 00:33:38
You know, it's just a currency, my neighbors. We kind of have a really small St. 00:33:43
Narrow entrance. 00:33:48
People in the park here, the harder it becomes for me. 00:33:49
I think that's our hope. 00:33:53
But if there's a bad business? 00:33:54
I don't think we can do much. 00:33:57
Right. 00:33:59
At. 00:34:02
If it comes to the Planning Commission, yeah, you. 00:34:03
You can revoke your license, right? Because they're. 00:34:06
But it once it gets into the Gray, it becomes. 00:34:11
Very good. 00:34:16
Brad, I wonder about that with respect to the hours of operation. 00:34:18
Now it's they're listed as, I think 7:00 AM to 10:00 PM. 00:34:23
And I just wonder about that. 00:34:28
There's a home based business operating until 10:00 PM. 00:34:32
And that proves to be disruptive. 00:34:36
For neighbors. 00:34:39
Small edge. 00:34:40
Small engine repair until 10:00 PM, whatever you know, and that's why it says 9:00 on my suggested change. I just wonder if we get 00:34:43
a lot of complaints. 00:34:47
Then do we? 00:34:52
Or does the city have the opportunity to revoke that license after a year? Or what? 00:34:55
Because 10:00 PM is late. I mean if neighbors have little kids or. 00:35:01
Yeah, and the 10:00 PM was drawn based off of our noise ordinance. So noise ordinance is 8:00 AM to 10:00 PM. 00:35:06
The 7:00 AM was based off of. 00:35:14
Before school as you'll sometimes have lessons or things that are occurring before school, so to include those kinds of hours. 00:35:17
It's highly unlikely that somebody would be operating a business from 7:00 AM to 10:00 PM that's. 00:35:25
A long time to have a continual stream of people coming in for business services. 00:35:30
You might have some people that want to operate only in the evenings if they have clients that are coming from. 00:35:38
Five until 10:00 PM or 6 until 10. 00:35:45
Massages. The storm has arrived. 00:35:49
Storm. 00:35:53
Great. 00:35:55
The hours of operation is that that flexibility likely you're not going to have a significant amount of disruption. 00:35:59
If a business is operating in the evening hours if. 00:36:06
Code enforce. 00:36:11
Situation that's come to me. 00:36:12
From holiday. 00:36:14
Yeah, I mean most of our the majority that I that come. 00:36:17
Parking. 00:36:24
Joaquin and that's where if if there were. 00:36:27
You had a home based occupation. 00:36:30
Or home occupation that. 00:36:33
You know. 00:36:35
Clients. 00:36:37
On their streets every evening, continuously. 00:36:39
Then you might have calls from neighbors which would then be a code enforcement. 00:36:44
And we could enforce that based off of the parking standards. 00:36:49
Your business operation. All clients have to park either on site or. 00:36:54
Limited to one on street parking space. 00:36:59
So if you're continuously having that amount of parking. 00:37:02
In a neighborhood, then that's code enforcement, and they could have their license revoked because they're operating outside of 00:37:06
the standards that were already given. 00:37:11
These are, sorry, this Commissioner. I'm just going to jump in. These are some really good questions. I just want to make sure. 00:37:16
Are we jumping ahead on our agenda item? Should we table some of these until we actually get to the text amendment? I don't know 00:37:23
how much more Brad has prepared for us here to to go through with the PowerPoint, but I'm guessing it's not all. 00:37:29
Around the conditional use and street parking discussions. 00:37:36
Ones that you guys face a lot and. 00:37:43
These changes it makes the staff. 00:37:48
But yes, staff deals with code enforcement on complaints with parking all the time. 00:37:55
Objects in the street. Somebody has a tree fall down and it's in the street. It's blocking the right of way. We get calls from 00:38:01
that. Then we have to contact the property owner and have them clean up the fallen tree. That's their responsibility. So we're 00:38:07
dealing with those kinds of like impeding the public right of way, code enforcement issues all the time. 00:38:14
And with business operation impact sometimes when? 00:38:22
When you have a lot of parking or traffic being generated, we generally know when those kinds of things are happening. 00:38:27
Can I ask a kind of a dumb question? I've been debating whether or not I should ask it or not. But so we have all these zones, 00:38:36
right? 00:38:40
That and the zones are established. 00:38:46
To meet the city plans to have residential areas, business areas we have, residential professional zones we have. 00:38:48
Different zones that are arranged. 00:38:59
To provide different services. 00:39:02
So. 00:39:07
Like with home based businesses? 00:39:10
Like why are businesses? If there's like a residential zone, why are they allowed to be in a residential zone? Why shouldn't home 00:39:13
based businesses? 00:39:18
Be allowed in a residential. 00:39:23
Like professional. 00:39:26
And that still gives land. 00:39:28
Do you see what I'm saying? I guess I'm just kind of, I'm feeling like people are saying, well, we should be able to use our land 00:39:32
the way we want to use our land, which they should be able to, but. 00:39:38
Yes, and. 00:39:45
What's the purpose in the in the zones then? 00:39:46
If we don't abide by that. 00:39:49
So. 00:39:52
Do cities react to what people are doing? 00:39:57
Their laws kind of reflect what's happening. 00:40:01
I think that's the answer to your question. So people were doing home based businesses. 00:40:04
And then Sidney started regulating home based businesses. 00:40:08
So you can't do this, You can't do that. And the legislature said, and then they started saying, well, they're going to do the 00:40:13
room, make it expensive. 00:40:16
And so we're going to, we're going to charge it $350.00 a year business license fee. 00:40:19
If they want to do it, then they're going to. 00:40:24
And then somebody said this is ridiculous, why are we paying this? So legislature comes down and says you can't require city 00:40:26
business licenses. 00:40:30
At all and the cost and if. 00:40:34
It has to be regulated to the cost of administering. 00:40:38
The license and creating the license. 00:40:41
So they put a cap basically. 00:40:43
You know $20 fee business license instead, so. 00:40:47
It's an attempted cities because you have. 00:40:51
I would say there's probably. 00:40:54
Their residential zone. 00:40:56
It's a residential home. 00:41:01
I bought a residential property in a residential home I don't want to have. 00:41:04
My neighbor selling lotions and you know, massage oils out of their neighborhood, out of their house, garage. They make it home. 00:41:08
I didn't sign up for that. Right. And then you have, others would say. 00:41:15
I'm just starting a business and I'm an entrepreneur and I can't afford rent right now. 00:41:20
The only way I'm going to do that is to be able to start this in my home and eventually get out and then. 00:41:24
We all know that most home based businesses fail within a year or two. 00:41:30
So that's. 00:41:38
Cities are trying to regulate as best they can and adapt to what people are doing. 00:41:40
And sometimes it works. 00:41:44
Better than this and in the longer history of land use. 00:41:47
Home based businesses have existed. 00:41:53
Forever. 00:41:56
Tailors. 00:41:57
Operated businesses out of their homes. 00:41:59
All sorts of services that were home based, so it's just that customary use. 00:42:03
Just carries through. 00:42:08
I don't think that's ever changed where home based businesses were not ever allowed. 00:42:10
They're an accessory. 00:42:17
So there the main intent or use of the land has to be residential, but we allow accessory uses and some of them basically. 00:42:18
Like, you're right because you're home. You build your home as population grew. 00:42:29
You're shrinking, but your home, Main St. 00:42:35
I'm going to convert my house to a shop and so anyways, there's. 00:42:37
There's lots of reasons for it. 00:42:42
That that. 00:42:43
Perspective. 00:42:46
I bought a residential home. 00:42:47
Why is my neighbor selling soaps and motions? 00:42:50
That she made at all. 00:42:54
I didn't sign up for that. 00:42:57
That's potential. 00:42:59
Yeah, it is. It creates a lot of. 00:43:00
Cities. You're trying to respond to it. 00:43:04
I think the biggest according to the law, like those zones that have been set up that doesn't have any precedence, it doesn't have 00:43:08
any like if you are in a residential zone and that zone is that. 00:43:15
There's nothing within the law that says. 00:43:22
That takes precedence. It doesn't matter if you want to run a business out of your house, you're in a residential zone. 00:43:25
So cities have passed ordinances that allow for it so. 00:43:32
You can do it. 00:43:39
It's the primary use and accessories. 00:43:42
So primary use is residential. No, you can't set up a gas station and have it right, have it be a gas station. You can't. You 00:43:44
can't convert your house to be a business only. 00:43:50
So you can't change your house into a boutique and have it operate as a business only. It has to still be a residential use. So as 00:43:58
long as somebody lives there, yes, it's a fair question. 00:44:04
As long as somebody lives there, I mean going back to. 00:44:10
Mean I grew up in Park City and there were lots of shop owners that had apartments above their shops and lived there and. 00:44:13
That would be. 00:44:20
If they were. 00:44:22
Yeah, yeah. And that's so that's kind of a zoning district. 00:44:24
Commercial. 00:44:28
And the residential use would be an accessory use or an allowed use. 00:44:30
Main Street was. 00:44:39
Not. 00:44:44
Right. 00:44:45
Homes that built them as time. 00:44:47
Past uses changed. 00:44:49
Zones changed. 00:44:51
Commercial. 00:44:55
OK. 00:44:58
Do you want to go to the next slide, Brad? 00:45:09
So I didn't find anywhere in the law that 31 minutes Canada is an hour. 00:45:13
But I think the closer we get to 47 minutes. 00:45:19
I think we probably So I know they let us know because they got something to do. You tell me what you want to do. 00:45:23
Let's get an hour training done. There's a lot of snow. We don't want to go out in this stall right now. That squalls ugly play 00:45:29
out out there. 00:45:33
So, yeah, next slide. 00:45:38
So we've already talked about this a little bit, but just a little bit more here legislative body, the City Council. 00:45:40
They're the only ones that can enact land use regulations. 00:45:47
So you guys don't get to enact land use regulations you guys get. 00:45:51
Apply the language regulations with the council passed. 00:45:55
So. 00:46:00
Councils. City councils are required by state law. They have to create an amendment zoning districts and Disney general uses that 00:46:03
are allowed in each zoning that's required by. 00:46:07
They may establish. 00:46:13
Other restrictions, you can modify them and amend them. 00:46:14
Including the configuration modifications. 00:46:18
The relentless decision that applies sort of criteria or. 00:46:21
They consider each land use regulation that the Planning Commission recommends. Planning Commission has the authority on its own 00:46:28
accord to prepare or cause staff to prepare a land use. A proposed land use regulation City Council by law has to consider has to 00:46:35
be on the agenda and they can adopt it, they can reject it, they can amend it. 00:46:41
And then? 00:46:49
And then they can also establish language ordinances that allows for conditions. They don't have to, but they can. 00:46:53
Next slide. 00:47:00
The Land use authority there's there can be 3. It depends on what the what the. 00:47:03
Like a land use application, the Planning Commission of holiday is designated. 00:47:08
Staff when you guys say. 00:47:13
Designate final final approval to staff. You're designating for that particular application the staff as a land use authority. 00:47:16
So anyway. 00:47:24
That was your. 00:47:27
Shall approve it conditional use if the reasonable conditions are proposed or can be imposed. 00:47:32
To mitigate the reasonably anticipated detrimental. 00:47:38
Other proposed? 00:47:41
In accord. 00:47:43
And by design, they're meant to be flexible. 00:47:45
So there is. 00:47:48
There's also. 00:47:51
But it does again seem to favor. 00:47:56
The land use application, so it's more rather than less generous toward the person asking to do something. 00:47:59
And that's why Blood was specifically says. 00:48:06
If it's not prohibited. 00:48:09
It is permitted. 00:48:11
That's right. Wait a minute. 00:48:14
And it's basically because. 00:48:17
The legislature has designated that private property rights. 00:48:22
Are incredibly important. 00:48:28
And allowing people to use their. 00:48:30
In a way. 00:48:34
May impact your neighbor, but not so much that you can't do anything. 00:48:35
I mean, if you wanted to prohibit everything, you're allowed to live there, you're allowed to plant 8 trees. 00:48:39
You can have 65 square feet of flower space. 00:48:44
And that's it. And if you want a driveway, it shall be Gray and it shall be concrete. 00:48:48
There's no credit thing else, No Co. 00:48:53
No pavers. That's it. 00:48:56
You want to have some flexibility with your. 00:48:58
Legislature. 00:49:01
It makes sense to have houses grouped together and then have sections. 00:49:03
Grocery stores can be located, gas stations can be located. 00:49:09
Laundromats. 00:49:13
Dry cleaners. Dry. 00:49:14
Restaurants. 00:49:16
Keep that in a separate way. We don't need to have that in the middle. 00:49:18
Use. 00:49:25
You get. 00:49:32
Residential. 00:49:34
We're not going to go into too much about appeal authority. You can talk about that a little bit. 00:49:36
Can be a hearing. 00:49:44
To be a court judge. 00:49:46
City Council Sometimes the City Council considers the bill 42. 00:49:52
So let's say a neighborhood wants to appeal. 00:49:58
An approval for a site plan. 00:50:02
That the Planning Commission has done. We're the ultimate authority on that right? 00:50:04
So you're the decision. So they appeal the ultimate decision makers authority. 00:50:10
Right. So it was in holiday? 00:50:19
Oh, OK. 00:50:23
So there's not a board of adjustment. 00:50:25
So, you know, holiday. 00:50:27
OK, that's fine. 00:50:33
Thank you. There might be one or two ordinances that still have a board of adjustment listed in it. 00:50:37
But I think it is. 00:50:41
The city councillor, city manager. 00:50:43
A point of adjustment, OK. There's some of those in holidays as well. 00:50:46
Thank you, Brad. In that case, where you have an applicant or a landowner, the landowner applicant, can the public appeal a 00:50:51
Planning Commission decision? 00:50:57
Or does it? My understanding is that the? 00:51:03
Is entitled to appeal, but the public in general wouldn't because that would follow a referendum process. 00:51:07
Like a preliminary approval, that's not a final decision. So you can't, you can't appeal anything unless it's a final decision, 00:51:24
unless it's final. 00:51:28
And so if it's a rezone. 00:51:33
This is. 00:51:38
The legislature has changed this a couple of times over the last. 00:51:40
But at 1:00. 00:51:45
The state code said that you cannot APPE. 00:51:47
A referendum, right? And that's how planned decisions will appear. The single spot zone. 00:51:51
Decision. Spot, zoning decision, single piece of problem. You can't. 00:51:57
But they changed that. 00:52:03
Hasn't come up, but I we had one in in some account. 00:52:07
There was a land use decision that zone change. 00:52:10
And basically it was. 00:52:15
The property passed away. 00:52:19
Their children inherit the. 00:52:22
Want to? 00:52:25
43 acres. 00:52:26
And they It was within the city limits. 00:52:29
For a rezone. 00:52:33
From. 00:52:34
Which is allow you in that one zone in this particular. 00:52:37
You can put one acre lots on it. 00:52:40
They wanted to get presidential half the developer. They had a contract. 00:52:43
Ran through. 00:52:48
The City Council approved. 00:52:50
Was that The Who challenged it on a referendum? The public of the residents? 00:52:56
So but. 00:53:02
So basically. 00:53:04
What happened? 00:53:08
So, so and the referendum mean everyone in the city is voting on it? Yes, yes. So it goes to a ballot. What happened? 00:53:10
So the legislature changed a few things about what reference what is allowed to do. 00:53:20
Because basically the developers were basically the council has no. 00:53:28
The council and the ordinances and the policy are enacted don't mean anything. 00:53:32
And the residents of the city can prevent any reason they can't prevent the development because they could still put, you know, 42 00:53:36
homes on it they want. 00:53:41
Any outside. 00:53:46
But there are. I think there's 40. 00:53:50
And then the legislature. 00:53:58
Like, maybe we don't want quite so many referendums, yeah? 00:54:05
You know, it was it was kind of funny because I got a call from a legislative staffer and says, hey, we got your letter. 00:54:10
It's like a blood letter. 00:54:16
You wrote about six months ago that said this is not a referral item. 00:54:18
They're upset about. 00:54:22
Just quote of the log and. 00:54:28
Anyway. 00:54:31
Sometimes, sometimes you. 00:54:35
Doesn't actually mean. 00:54:38
And sometimes the legislature is behind. 00:54:42
On court decisions and incorporating. 00:54:45
Flight summary, There's appeals. 00:54:55
And there's different processes. 00:54:59
I don't want to. 00:55:10
That's an hour. That's an hour sold. About an hour. Can we get a copy of this? This is a great yeah. And this is a really helpful 00:55:14
table to you that breaks down legislative versus administrative. 00:55:20
And do me a favor and just pull out the slide with the table as well, so we get the whole deal and then just the table, just this 00:55:30
one. 00:55:33
Send them both. 00:55:38
Thank you. 00:55:42
Thanks. We have three more hours. 00:55:43
Model through this over the year. 00:55:46
Like a good filler, very relevant to the right. I'm glad everyone could be here to attend too, because that's do we have the 00:55:50
paperwork we have to sign off on? 00:55:55
We just have to keep track of it. 00:56:01
I'll put it in the table. 00:56:04
Make sure we can. 00:56:09
Find the road. 00:56:12
And this is a serious ***** thing. They were. 00:56:18
Winds and I text from my 14 years about an inch. It's all white out there, right? Let's go quickly. 00:56:21
All right, so nobody needs a break. We can just roll right into our agenda item, right? 00:56:30
All right. And with the long anticipated. 00:56:36
Exciting. 00:56:39
Conditional use text amendment. 00:56:41
OK. Gary, do you all care if I present from here about the podium? Great. 00:56:44
So this is continuation of our meeting that was held in December. 00:56:52
There were some changes. 00:56:58
Made based off of the direction from the Planning Commission comments. 00:57:01
Those are highlighted. 00:57:07
In the text that's attached to this. 00:57:10
Basically, let's see. 00:57:14
There were changes on parking. 00:57:22
Key point being. 00:57:26
On street parking is limited to 1 vehicle. 00:57:30
And needs to be located immediately adjacent to the home or within 200 feet. 00:57:33
I'm wondering on that particular bullet point, just because we brought up the Cello property a couple times tonight. As fate would 00:57:41
have it, on my way to this meeting there was a. 00:57:48
Bryce Brand new, nice car that parked on the opposite side of the street, 4 houses down. 00:57:55
And as they were getting out and I was going up my street, I had to stop. As they kind of Jay walked diagonally to that property, 00:58:02
I'm wondering if there's anything that could. 00:58:07
Put a preference, I don't know if we could require, but put a preference that they have to park on the same side of the street as 00:58:13
the property to help eliminate that potential safety jaywalking aspect of it. 00:58:19
I think that's easy to request. 00:58:26
But it's hard to enforce. 00:58:31
So could we put like preferred same side as house or something? 00:58:33
Yeah. And that we have the. 00:58:38
We could put that in the code, preferably or. 00:58:41
Addressing safety. 00:58:45
I don't know how we'd every neighborhood has people walking across their streets illegally all the time. Kids playing in the 00:58:48
street. I. 00:58:53
I know it does. 00:59:00
But you know, we wouldn't put that restriction on people having a church meeting or anything else. I mean, I we we seem to want to 00:59:03
have more restrictions on home occupation than other normal residential uses. 00:59:09
And if if HOMEOC is a permitted residential use, I don't know why we want to treat it that much differently. 00:59:16
I mean that's like how how restricted, I mean I like parking plans. I think that's a good thing that you guys can work with given 00:59:24
you know, OK you know staggering arrival times and stuff like that, but at some point I mean. 00:59:31
Jaywalking on a cul-de-sac. What is that? OK, Who's going to enforce that? 00:59:40
Sure. And it's just more just the concern of if there was a preference given to the client because it was outlined to the 00:59:45
applicant, Hey, crying, if you're going to park down the street, please park on my if there is parking available, which there was. 00:59:50
This guy was just in a hurry, so he just pulled over and parked and walked across the street and didn't mind little old me driving 00:59:54
up my street. 00:59:59
For I thought about laying on the horn, but I figured I'll be nice, you know? 01:00:04
Didn't want his kid to drop the cello. 01:00:10
As as we review applications, we can look at where their parking is being proposed and maybe suggest that of like oh if you have 01:00:13
people parking, maybe you want to encourage your clients to park on the same side of the street. 01:00:20
For safety. 01:00:28
But to actually have it outlined in the code is it has to be on the same side of the street that. 01:00:30
I It might be a little too restrictive. Gotcha. OK, just a thought. Enforcement issue, right? Yeah. 01:00:35
Is it reactionary? 01:00:43
Proactive. 01:00:49
We don't have a stakeout on the cello house. 01:00:50
Well. 01:00:54
I had a couple of questions. 01:00:59
One this is this is a little bit broader than the parking, but last time, gingerbread up. 01:01:03
The thought that. 01:01:11
About public hearings and so, so this. 01:01:14
Amendment would take out like the public notice right. Right And and in some ways I think that could be a good thing. I I can't 01:01:19
remember who brought it up but the idea that if you're if you want to run a home based therapy business I don't think your 01:01:23
neighbors should know that everyone walking into your house needs therapy. That seems like a privacy violation but it also seems 01:01:27
like actually. 01:01:32
It does make it more proactive to have neighbors be like, hey, I'm concerned about this and mitigate it. 01:01:37
Beforehand rather. 01:01:45
Have neighbors called the cops on their? That just seems like actually, you know, it seems reactive, and it seems like it could 01:01:47
put people in awkward or. 01:01:52
Situations with their neighbors. So I'm I'm just trying to I don't know what the answer is but I'm trying to figure out how could 01:01:57
we balance this idea of sort of privacy and. 01:02:02
Streamlining the process while. 01:02:07
Somehow getting input from neighbors to preemptively say. 01:02:11
This corner is kind of a tricky corner, or we've got these considerations. 01:02:15
Instead of having it be on the back end where your neighbors are unhappy and their only option at that point is to call code 01:02:21
enforcement. Does that make sense? 01:02:25
Yeah. And that's, I mean we get, we get calls from neighborhood neighbors all the time about, you know, parking issues. A lot of 01:02:29
times those calls are met with, you know, streets are public right, of ways. And we don't regulate parking on streets beyond, you 01:02:35
know, if a car is parked there for longer than 24 hours at a time, if a car is parked there during a snowstorm, those are 01:02:41
instances that we would. 01:02:48
Regulate that. So, following that same kind of process with a home occupation, here's what our standards are for the home 01:02:54
occupation. This person has a license. 01:03:00
These are the standards that they're operating within. If you notice that they're operating outside of these standards, please let 01:03:06
us know and we can. 01:03:10
Follow an enforcement process for that. 01:03:16
We do have and. 01:03:20
On our GIS portal. 01:03:23
We have this Holiday Business license locations in our interactive maps. Cool. 01:03:25
So and we do have a lot of home businesses already on here. 01:03:31
So people who have business licenses, they are shown on this map. 01:03:36
It doesn't give any details. 01:03:41
The legend is over here. I didn't see you follow your neighbors. I've got there. So it shows occupied or mobile business. So you 01:03:46
see in this neighborhood there's some blue ones. So those are like mobile businesses where they're. 01:03:52
You know, operating in other locations, but it's based out of their home. 01:03:59
Occupied our. 01:04:04
These licens. 01:04:06
There's some that are likely occupied. Those are you see those more in commercial spaces? 01:04:09
Vacancies. 01:04:15
So that's the level of detail. 01:04:17
It doesn't give an exact. 01:04:19
But I. 01:04:23
Pinpointed on. 01:04:25
So people can see where businesses are operating. We also utilize this if somebody calls and says, you know, here's this my 01:04:27
neighbor's operating business, here's my concerns. 01:04:34
We can say, oh, they have a license. 01:04:41
Here's what their standards. 01:04:44
So I think there is an enforcement route, there's a way for people to be informed and if they do have concerns. 01:04:48
We can address those concerns either through enforcement or by answering questions, giving information to whoever is calling. 01:04:54
Uh-huh. 01:05:01
I think that's very. 01:05:05
To know so that you know, you see. 01:05:07
There's something going on in your neighbor's house regularly. 01:05:12
You go online and find that, oh, they have business license. I'm going to go find out what city. 01:05:16
Yeah. And they can do a records request for somebody's business license as well. 01:05:22
There seems to be an abnormal amount of traffic coming to and away from my neighbor's house. 01:05:29
And then it doesn't get into like a personal detail situation where. 01:05:36
Giving out so much personal details on somebody's business operations. Instead it's they have a business license. Here's what 01:05:40
their business is for. 01:05:44
Or the name of their business. You know what their business license and tells. Here's the standards the home based businesses all 01:05:48
have to meet. 01:05:52
If they're operating outside of those standards, then. 01:05:57
Follow an enforcement. 01:06:00
Here, as I can tell, I don't either. 01:06:03
Just to chill out, is there any? 01:06:06
Minimum threshold below which people don't need a license at all, like if they teach one violin lesson a month. 01:06:11
No. Anytime you have clients that are coming to your house for business purposes, you would need a. 01:06:18
Currently a conditional use permit. 01:06:26
If you don't have any clients coming to your house, you're not required to have a business license at all. 01:06:30
Some people opt to have a business license that's called an unregulated business use or an unregulated home occupation. 01:06:37
Some people choose to do a business license anyway if their home insurance wants it, or some other sort of funding, or whatever. 01:06:46
They want a business license so they can apply for a business license, renew it every year. It's $20.00, but they're not required 01:06:51
by the city to have it. 01:06:57
Is there any world in which we would, as a city, consider like you're teaching two lessons a month? 01:07:03
We don't. We don't even care. You don't even have to tell us about it. Is there a world in which we would? 01:07:10
Think about that. I'm just. I'm just. 01:07:16
Because the easier it is to do this, I think the more people will do it legally. But is there a threshold? We're like, you know 01:07:18
what, don't? 01:07:22
Don't worry about it. You're doing that twice a month. We Don. 01:07:25
We're not going. 01:07:28
Make you get a lighting at that point. It would be that your neighbors are not likely to notice that. 01:07:30
Anyway. 01:07:35
Just flying under the radar, Yeah, No, but I mean, you know, if they want to comply with the law, but it's like tiny. It's not a 01:07:38
busy, you know, it's not a business. It's like. 01:07:42
How does a service like yard sales or people that are Facebook marketplace, KSL gurus, how does that factor in there? So like 01:07:46
pallet cells if you have people coming to pick up items from your house that you're selling as a business? 01:07:53
Then you would need to have a home occupation. 01:08:01
If. 01:08:04
It's a side hustle out of their, out of their. It's less than 500 a year. I don't have to claim it on taxes. 01:08:06
I know that. 01:08:13
Actually does allow, isn't it? It allows for A1 yard sale per year I believe. 01:08:15
Yeah. So if you have a yard sale one whole quarter, you have to apply for a business license. 01:08:23
Yes. 01:08:34
Who's going to do that? I don't know. Right. You're going to say, oh, you've had your one yard sale per year? 01:08:37
But you could see how if you're we had a. 01:08:43
Down our street that they said they were having an estate sale every single Saturday. Yes. And their front yard was littered with 01:08:48
junk. Yes. And that becomes an issue because your code then. 01:08:54
It was an issue, but if you're having one once 1/4 and they clean it up and. 01:09:02
Who's going to help, right? 01:09:06
Yeah. 01:09:09
I guess my question. 01:09:12
I guess my question is. 01:09:15
So I'm imagining, I know several people who are just, like, very scrupulous, right? They want to be legal, They want to be good 01:09:18
citizens. And if it says you have to have a business license for one lesson a month? 01:09:23
They won't. They won't do the lesson rather than not. Like, you're right, the neighbors won't care, the neighbors won't know, but 01:09:28
they want to be law abiding citizens. Is there? Is there some way to write it into the code to say there is some threshold, not 01:09:32
just? 01:09:37
We're waiting for the neighbors to notice that you're doing something illegal. Does that make sense? Like it's it's more of a. 01:09:42
Putting their mind at rest, you don't have to go through the trouble of getting a business license if it's under this very, very 01:09:48
low thing, you know, having run a code compliance department. 01:09:54
The If you wherever you draw the line, everyone who's violating it will claim they're under the line and make the city prove they 01:10:01
have more than two, or more than three, or more than four. 01:10:06
It really is easier to say here's the hard line and that and and that if if you say it's two lessons a month and then the 01:10:11
neighbors say, Oh no, I see that, you know, then we send to have to send code people out and watch through binoculars and count 01:10:19
cars and all that. And it's not worth the hassle because people use that number and they they they're willing to swear in court 01:10:27
that they, you know, and I only had to well other than last week when I had four. But that was a special circumstance. 01:10:35
I averaged it over the last five years. And I mean, yeah, it's easier to have yes or no than it is to have a number. 01:10:43
And then? 01:10:53
So I guess it's true on the opposite end then too, as far as how much traffic is coming in. 01:10:56
And because if the if we just have established hours of operation between 7:00 AM and 10:00 that they can do recitals twice a 01:11:12
month. 01:11:17
That group lessons can only have. 01:11:23
You know, six people at a time, but there isn't any kind of regulation of how many people can actually be coming in and out if you 01:11:26
have every half hour somebody coming into a home from 7:00 AM until 10:00 PM. 01:11:33
And sometimes three and four people coming in every half hour. You know this business that I have on my street, they have three 01:11:41
different beds. 01:11:45
That they have three different clients at one time. 01:11:50
Which under this standard would be. 01:11:55
Permissible. Do they have multiple employees? 01:11:58
They have one employee. 01:12:02
So with one. 01:12:06
And their clients staggered. 01:12:09
It gets to a point where it's. 01:12:13
If you're operating for that many hours. 01:12:16
Staff would look at that and say this. 01:12:20
Way beyond what would be a normal use. 01:12:23
They live there and they have. So this is this is where the other thing they have a home and they are you. Currently they're using 01:12:32
their garage or. 01:12:36
Which isn't permissible right now, right? But under this it would be. 01:12:43
So if that's the case, then where does the residential versus if they have an accelerated accessory dwelling unit? 01:12:48
So they can't. Did you see what eliminate their garage parking? 01:12:58
Operating the business 15 hours out of the day. 01:13:03
My argument is it's not that the business is no longer. 01:13:06
A secondary or accessory use. 01:13:10
To the. 01:13:12
Because they live there. So is there something I didn't see it that says that, That says if it's. 01:13:13
Up to a certain amount of time that it's, it just says if it's, but I think that's the legal argument. 01:13:19
This is no longer the primary use of this facility is no longer. 01:13:29
Residential. 01:13:34
Primarily commercial. 01:13:36
And that changes the character. 01:13:38
But if I remember better, this person doesn't have a business. 01:13:40
They have a business license. They do have a business license. 01:13:43
You don't have a conditional use permit. 01:13:47
But, and I don't mean to single out, I'm just using this as an example like it, it gets to the point where if you've got that 01:13:51
going on, it just seems like there's a lot of and going back to our training that if the land user if they go well. 01:13:59
I'm living here. I have 5 kids that all live here. 01:14:08
This is our. 01:14:13
Isn't that going to take precedence over a single? You're operating 15 hours a day. It sure doesn't seem like this is. 01:14:15
Primarily a. 01:14:23
That's where the argument comes in. 01:14:26
Is so. 01:14:28
You're going to have a dispute and a disagreement. 01:14:31
And if it's that, if you're having that many, if it's three at a time or an hour, you're having 45 people. 01:14:34
Come to the home in a day. 01:14:41
I think that's a fairly easy argument to make. OK, changing the character of that so there doesn't need to be something clearer in 01:14:44
our ordinance in our. 01:14:49
Language. 01:14:54
So our language says that ensure that home occupations are compatible with. 01:14:56
The zone which they're located. 01:15:02
Having no negative impacts on the surrounding neighborhood. 01:15:04
And do not have combined off site impacts. 01:15:09
Of the home based business, so off site would be. 01:15:12
Streets, Traffic, not on the property itself. 01:15:15
Offsite impact. 01:15:19
And the primary I like a three. 01:15:21
But. 01:15:25
Where it says no negative impacts, that's just simply not true. 01:15:26
And that and I on my little list of edits. I think that language in three belongs up and a somewhere. 01:15:30
And may belong in three as well. But to say having no negative impacts on the surrounding neighborhood, that's impossible standard 01:15:39
because there's always impacts. 01:15:44
And that. 01:15:50
And then and three is a reasonable standard and maybe a legally defensible standard. 01:15:52
If this neighbor came in and applied for a business license and said, oh, we'll be open with three clients and 45 people a day and 01:15:59
all that. You can use this provision in three to deny that or to restrict it to something more reasonable with normal residential 01:16:06
use, like 6 or 8 trips a day. 01:16:13
And that's what I was looking for. It's just something more. I think 3 is good language. I just think it contradicts or is not 01:16:20
consistent with having no negative impacts. That's an impossibly high standard. 01:16:26
Minimal negative effects. 01:16:34
And I was just going to suggest you strike that and rely on a three. 01:16:38
As the method of. 01:16:43
When you get information, you know and. 01:16:46
Going to exceed the reasonable residential impact then you can deny it. So maybe instead of having saying no negative impacts. 01:16:50
Saying that insurers primary residential use. 01:17:01
Or. 01:17:06
Home occupations are an accessory use. Yeah something like that. And rather than no prime, yeah because I agree with not to over 01:17:08
not to oversimplify it but could you maybe just put having minimal to know so that there's still subjectivity but it's not an 01:17:15
absolute 0 threshold of subjectivity it's just minimal being like or having reasonable impacts and we and later in the here we 01:17:22
define what reasonable is. I just I just seem like an impossible standard to say no impact because any neighbor could come and 01:17:29
make an argument about. 01:17:36
Well, obviously this has a negative impact. That's why I'm here. 01:17:43
Yeah, there's one car trip or a day. That's five people coming in there. They leave at 10:00, at 9:59 when the last count, you 01:17:46
know, right, whatever. So that that was my first really technical. 01:17:52
Saying I love freebie or a three, I think that's exactly what you'd want. 01:17:58
And I do think that would solve your. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate. Yeah. And kind of to follow up on that because I didn't ask 01:18:05
it before. So someone comes in and says that our hours of operation are going to be, you know, 3:00 to 2:00 or 8:00 to 2:00, you 01:18:13
know, three days a week when you grant the business license. Is that the hours of operation for that business license or does this 01:18:21
automatically grant the ability of the person to operate at any point? 01:18:30
From 7:00 in the morning till 10, seven days a week. If it's a conditional use and that is a stated condition in the conditional 01:18:38
use of those are their hours of operation. OK, if it's just a business license and. 01:18:45
And it's not a conditional use. 01:18:52
So really they can come in and say anything they want to get the business license and then immediately expand to the full. 01:18:56
7 to 10, but you're going to know, I mean if we have new conditional units, if there's visitors to the to the home based business, 01:19:05
then we have the opportunity to. 01:19:09
But I mean can't can the license establish the hours of operation to match what they requested and say yes, that's reasonable. 01:19:14
Reasonable. And that and that. And then they want to expand. Should they have to come back in and and. 01:19:22
Repurchase, yes. But again, it comes down to an enforcement issue. We have a 7:00 to 10:00 PM. It's easy to say, oh, you're 01:19:30
operating outside of that, you can. 01:19:34
But if it's down to the individual business license. 01:19:39
I guess that's just one more step. 01:19:42
Is there a way to? 01:19:45
Include in the process of getting a business license, is this a home based business or not? That was a question I had too. And 01:19:48
then that if they say yeah yeah they check a box, then they have to. 01:19:55
So I think Steph looks at that of the address, right? Yes. So if the address is a home, they automatically have to get pushed into 01:20:02
the home base, right. It's a different, I mean it's a business license, but it's a different. 01:20:08
Set of standards of where they're located. 01:20:15
And that's possible that then in so as the Planning Commission, you're only overseeing Title 13? 01:20:19
But Title 5 is business licensing. 01:20:28
So that might be something. 01:20:31
Could be changed in the business licensing? 01:20:35
Title of limiting hours of operation. 01:20:38
As stated on a business license for home occupations and that would have to be decided by your business license official. 01:20:44
And then City Council. 01:20:52
How do we or do we have the? 01:20:54
To protect. 01:20:59
From. 01:21:01
As have arisen. 01:21:03
In Ginger's neighborhood. 01:21:06
You know, we've got a home based business in her neighborhood. 01:21:07
That is disruptive. 01:21:12
So I would say with that business, they're likely operating outside of what standards would be. They haven't gotten a conditional 01:21:14
use permit. There hasn't been conditions that have been imposed. We don't have this set of standards that they're not operating 01:21:20
under. They have a business license for their business. 01:21:25
But not a business license for or a conditional use permit for the operation business license, like if they looked up the address. 01:21:32
How did they get the business? 01:21:39
The way you look at that, you can. 01:21:41
Report. Well, they have to be. So they might. The applications are private, Yeah. They may not have stated the full intent of 01:21:43
their business. They may have just applied for a business license and said I'm operating a business outside of our home. Our 01:21:50
business license official is very good at if you're having clients come to your house, you need to have a conditional use permit. 01:21:57
Now it's up to the applicant then to apply for that conditional use permit. Is there. I guess this would be making it. 01:22:05
It seems like there shouldn't be that gap though, to like, oh, you gotta do this thing and then they have to do the thing like, 01:22:14
can it be something? 01:22:17
More automatic, you know, like you don't get the license for the business of its home occupied until you do the thing. 01:22:21
If there's So what likely happened is that they looked into it. 01:22:27
And I don't know this person at all. 01:22:32
What likely happened is they looked into what it takes to do what they want to do and they thought, well that's burden so I'm not 01:22:35
going to do it. I'm just going to not check this box here. I don't have anything complaints coming to my home check and then. 01:22:40
I mean, we're relying staff is relying on the person. 01:22:47
Be honest on. 01:22:51
And forthright and what they're putting on the application and we don't have any way to say. 01:22:52
Sally lied on her application, right? Or go watch their house and say let me make sure that nobody's coming to your house and 01:22:58
they'll figure it out when Ginger calls code enforcement and they finally come and get their use permit, which is which is what 01:23:03
happens. 01:23:08
What one question I guess too is. 01:23:15
So once code enforcement gets called, is the process then like, hey, we're going to revoke your license, which is encouraging 01:23:18
people to, I don't know. 01:23:21
Do massages on the black market or does it is it more like, hey, these problems are happening, let's talk about mitigation and it 01:23:26
goes back to this thing about yes, conditions, so with the cello lessons. 01:23:32
That was a code enforcement call, so started with code enforcement. 01:23:38
We issued a notice of violation. 01:23:44
The terms of that notice of violation is that you have to be compliant with the code. 01:23:46
Part of being compliant is getting a conditional use permit. 01:23:51
So then the applicant turned in a conditional use permit. We went through that whole process. 01:23:54
That's kind of where we started looking at. 01:24:00
Do we want to even have conditional use permits? 01:24:04
Can we move it to a set list of standards so that? 01:24:07
Where we're. 01:24:11
Making it easier for an applicant. You have people who apply for business licenses, don't want to go through a process of having a 01:24:13
public hearing, a Planning Commission and scheduling and all of that just to. 01:24:19
Have people who are coming to their house twice a month. 01:24:26
Or once a week. 01:24:30
You know, whatever frequency they're like, oh, I don't want to do that for the amount of time that I have people that are coming 01:24:34
to my house. So changing it to a list of standards, we can say yes, you check all these standards or here's what you have to 01:24:39
comply by. 01:24:44
If you have people who are coming to your house. 01:24:50
You don't have to go through a process of a public hearing. 01:24:52
Planning. 01:24:55
All of that. 01:24:56
Do you still have to come but you still have to come? See somebody on staff in person? 01:24:58
Well, you can you submit an application, It has to have all the details included so they don't have to walk into the City Hall or. 01:25:03
Anything. If it's like, oh this looks good, check. 01:25:10
OK, so our review process is interactive for Wilson. They submit through an online portal. They have to have all their details. If 01:25:14
they don't have all their details, their application is incomplete. We send them back comments that say you need to submit these 01:25:20
details. 01:25:25
So then they submit the details and then we can comment. 01:25:32
You need to address this. You need to address this. 01:25:36
That seems reasonable to me. 01:25:40
I had another question, but it's changing. I mean it's looking at another part. 01:25:43
Is that OK? 01:25:47
Where is it? There's a line about something about something. Something about 1/4 of a mile. Something. Something. 01:25:49
You don't know about operating within one. Here it is one 32133, line 132 if it blah blah blah. If additional home occupations are 01:25:56
being connected with them, 1/4 mile additional conditions to mitigate in petrol, blah blah. 01:26:04
So is that. 01:26:12
Again, is that only proactive or if somebody applies for a license, right? Is it, is this saying you would then go back to the 01:26:14
other two people on the street who also are legitimately operating and they had mitigation things and say, hey, by the way, we 01:26:21
have to now mitigate with a third one in mind. Does that make sense? No, it would apply to only the new application. So it's 01:26:27
saying that if you're applying for a home occupation and there's already one that's existing within 1/4 mile, we're going to look 01:26:33
at that. 01:26:39
Existing one, right? 01:26:46
And might create some additional conditions maybe offset times we say, OK, they're operating. 01:26:47
These times or they have pickups that for these times, so thus. 01:26:54
Operation would need to be offset from that. So does disadvantaged people who are applying later. 01:26:59
Yes, yeah. 01:27:05
Good questions. So then somebody who's applying later might just have more stringent things in order to operate instead of 01:27:11
equalizing them across. 01:27:15
Businesses, right? 01:27:21
I don't know how I feel about that. Let me think about that. 01:27:23
Can we jump to the list of prohibited and then I appreciate you dealing with the ammunition. I have two or three other thoughts on 01:27:29
this one. Number two has kennels and I'd like to add animal husbandry to that list. 01:27:36
Like animal husbandry and or camels and then. 01:27:44
The breeding of any kind of animals as a home occupation, I think is problematic. 01:27:49
Yeah, I will have a lot of that addressed in our allowed uses table. 01:27:55
So these prohibited uses were based off of things that were not explicitly in our and if it's somewhere else in the ordinance, I 01:28:01
just wanted to make sure that it showed up there definitions as well. So some of those breeding cell of animals. 01:28:09
Small. 01:28:19
Home breeding businesses. 01:28:21
Defined in the definitions. 01:28:23
As not allowed or allowed. So we went off of the allowed use table and then added specifics and prohibited that we're not the next 01:28:26
one on there was they went on welding shops and and machine shops and. 01:28:33
And a couple of other ordinances I looked at and it's fabrication. So it's broader than just. 01:28:42
In other words, if you're fabricating stuff that seems to inherently bring noise or equipment or gas. 01:28:50
You know power or whatever and that and. 01:28:57
I'd like to broaden that to fabrication. And then just could that be again for the like 3D printers though, which are in the house 01:29:01
and quite quiet. I think printers are fabrication. 01:29:07
If you're a 3D printer is for sure. Yeah. Metal, metal fabric. Yeah. Right, right. Gotcha. Yeah. So you know, just a little, you 01:29:14
know, because if they say I, well, I don't have the press and I don't have the welding, but I assemble a bunch of metal stuff, 01:29:21
yeah, they have something that is going to be so I think a little broader so. 01:29:28
Fabrication. Metal fabrication, yeah, metal fabrication, I think, yeah, it's metals and that I wood is kind of. 01:29:37
Because we get all people making Santa Clauses all year in their garage. 01:29:45
It creates so many. 01:29:52
Well, you can't fill the boat. Your middle boat's in your backyard. 01:30:07
And the other one was the prohibition on tattoos and body art. 01:30:15
And my question is why that? 01:30:21
Particular. 01:30:25
Or ethnic, I mean, we do. 01:30:27
Hairstyling in Homes Why can't we do tattooing? 01:30:31
Tattooing and body art is not allowed in holiday at all. 01:30:34
Just like smoke shops. 01:30:40
OK, there's a story. 01:30:43
OK. Yeah. So cosmetics, permanent cosmetics. 01:30:47
Yes. 01:30:51
Tattoos and body art? No. So I can get my eyebrows, but I can't get a skull? Yes. All right. 01:30:53
So you have a lot of people who are that start out in permanent cosmetics doing like microblading. 01:31:00
For eyebrows. And then they'll transition and become a fine line tattoo artist. 01:31:09
But they can't do that within their. So you'll have like somebody who's renting a booth doing microblading and then they'll start 01:31:15
doing. 01:31:20
Fine. Line body. 01:31:24
But we got saved. No, you cannot do body art. It's limited to this specific permanent cosmetic tattooing only. 01:31:27
What's the reason for? 01:31:37
It creates if you're saying OK now you can do fine line tattoo, what's the difference between how do you say yes you can do that, 01:31:41
but you can't do a tattoo that is. 01:31:47
Larger or involves more colors. 01:31:52
Why can't they do that? Why can't they do tattooing in holiday? 01:31:55
Land use. That's just what it was decided by City Council as to be. 01:32:02
Not permitted use. 01:32:08
I agree it shouldn't be on the list if we don't allow commercial. 01:32:10
And you're telling me we don't allow? 01:32:14
Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. 01:32:19
That's someone else's fight and they want to go to the council. 01:32:21
Many of us have relatives in the tattooing business, and it seems rather odd that other people can do all kinds of. 01:32:25
Things on bodies, including your neighbors, apparently, and not be in violation of medical, dental and optical. And then so do we 01:32:33
define laboratory, medical, dental and optical. 01:32:39
And it's only laboratory, not actual. So if you. 01:32:46
Do the teeth whitening if you put them in the chair and do Botox that that permitted home use or not. 01:32:50
I'd have to look at our allowed uses. I don't. I don't think dental is allowed. 01:33:00
I don't think so either. Teeth. Lightning going on, you need to have it listed. 01:33:05
Where did you say these were defined more? 01:33:14
Two locations, you guys. It's like where it's at right now. 01:33:21
And permanent eyebrows and so. 01:33:27
My neighbor is now training people. She has people come in to start their own. 01:33:31
Keith Whitening It's Time to turn Her in, Ginger. 01:33:36
Turn her into code enforcement. So and she she has appointments that she'll have, you know, maybe 3. 01:33:41
People come a day to start their own teeth whitening and and spray tan business that she trains them and she gives them a kit. 01:33:50
Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah, you need to cut code enforcement. It's other young moms. It's other, you know, people that want to 01:33:58
be home that are doing it. I'm telling you it's a big business in holiday. 01:34:05
So Ginger lives on a street where a lady's instead of doing Tupperware, she's setting up network marketing spray tan and teeth 01:34:13
whitening. 01:34:18
Right. OK, well, that's cool. Maybe she'll take off like Lulu, whatever her name is. 01:34:23
Did you have anything else on your list? Yeah, two. Quick, Warren. I really read this stuff. That's good. Good. Having mostly 01:34:30
written one for another city, it's kind of like, OK, I had to go back and look and see what we did and the city where it did it. 01:34:36
We do not require business licenses. We just require that you comply with these rules. 01:34:42
We do not issue both business license. We decided not. 01:34:49
To fight off. 01:34:52
We have plenty of health going around in the city. 01:34:54
And then I didn't want to make a pitch and it falls up kind of on your comment. But the more I've thought about this, the the less 01:34:57
I like the idea that homework should operate till 10:00 at night. 01:35:03
I'd like to cut that off at. 01:35:10
And that. 01:35:13
These are mocks. 01:35:15
And we don't, most businesses are closed by 10:00 and and I know we, we say has something to do with the noise ordinance or 01:35:16
something, but the noise ordinance is its own ordinance for other reasons. 01:35:21
And that and and it seems to me that consistent with the idea of this being a hallmark and a secondary thing. 01:35:27
Why are they operating at 10:00 at night? And then literally they're OK if they walk out the door at 9:59 and you know, they're 01:35:35
still getting in their cars and all that happened. I think this is a good opportunity. 01:35:41
Just trim that down a little. 01:35:47
I don't you know. I know evening hours are important for some kinds of businesses, but I think for the neighbors sake, 9:00 would 01:35:49
be much more reasonable than 10:00. 01:35:55
Yeah, we could. I mean, we can do that as 9:00 PM. 01:36:05
Anytime it could change if there's any issues, but starting at 9:00 PM and I think it's reasonable. 01:36:09
I mean, especially when we get into all of this, kids playing and all that, they're not. They're supposed to be home in bed. 01:36:15
Right before 10:00. There's some kind of curfew at night. Don't be judging us when you put our kids. 01:36:22
And then I thank you for listening to all this and. 01:36:31
Has to do with the. 01:36:35
H. 01:36:38
We find it here and tell you what line it is. 01:36:40
Line 95, Yeah, 95, the very end of that. So line 100 says operation should not violate noise ordinance. 01:36:46
As ordinances detailed in the City of Holiday, None of that. 01:36:56
That's either duplicates if of some other ordinance or should say shall I think. 01:37:03
Otherwise, it isn't really enforceable. 01:37:09
I mean, and remove the should means it's encouraged. Yeah, yeah, I think you could. 01:37:14
Revoke a license for continuous violations and ultimately, but I think it has to be a shell in order to do that. 01:37:20
And I think it needs its own section personally, because it's A tag on to an unrelated topic about tools and stuff like that. 01:37:28
Anyway. 01:37:38
Good suggestion. 01:37:41
And I don't want this to sound like I've been really negative, but I love this ordinance. 01:37:45
The only one thing I don't like about it is allowing a city employee to authorize parking on a public street. I don't think that's 01:37:53
a good practice, but in spite of that, I think it's so much better than what we have. 01:37:59
Not only for our time, but just getting more compliance. I think this can make it easier to get compliance. 01:38:06
And a year from now, we'll fix whatever comes up. 01:38:12
And I intend on voting for it. I just think it's a. 01:38:16
A great thing to get us there and excellent and we want to get those changes in. 01:38:23
And then, Commissioner Barrett, you've been fairly quiet through the evening on this discussion. Did you have any taking it all 01:38:29
in? I appreciate the suggested changes. Obviously we would like to see things as specific as possible so that there's not this 01:38:35
ambiguity. 01:38:40
I'm nervous about the parking still. 01:38:47
I guess we'll just have to figure it out as we go. 01:38:50
So to your. 01:38:54
Do we need? 01:38:56
Multiple times. 01:38:59
If there's a noise ordinance are for the city, do we have to? 01:39:00
That they can't violate that. 01:39:04
I think that's more of convenience for whoever's for. 01:39:07
Individual that's getting a home based occupant, just a reminder right that it's all there. 01:39:11
Just to go back to the comments earlier, so OK. 01:39:18
It doesn't need to be there. 01:39:23
Excellent. 01:39:28
And then Commissioner Prince suggest. 01:39:29
Yeah, I I wonder in light of our earlier discussion, if we want to include one of those help me savings. 01:39:31
Clauses in. 01:39:40
If it's not listed. 01:39:43
Right, it was not listed. It's not allowed. 01:39:44
That could be a. 01:39:47
Really a decision? 01:39:51
What you can do is just ask council to consider a savings clause that says something along the lines of. 01:39:53
If. 01:40:03
In this list it is otherwise. 01:40:04
Or could you, could you even do something like if it's not in this list, it has to come before the Planning Commission, so that at 01:40:07
least is under discussion, right? 01:40:11
Instead of saying yes or no before we even know what it is. And then there's public comment that way too. And I'm sure there are 01:40:15
things we haven't considered. So certainly why bar them? So that could be. 01:40:20
I mean it might fall under this. 01:40:26
We're done. So be home occupations that do not comply with the standards of this section shall apply for conditional use permit. I 01:40:29
see. So if it's not in the list, we could add in. 01:40:34
Or somewhat. 01:40:41
Because then then it has eyes on it and then a decision to be made instead of either. 01:40:43
Saying no or yes. 01:40:48
You could put like do not does not comply or falls outside the scope of this. 01:40:49
Ordinance or something to that effect. I don't want to overly muddy the water here. I think this says what you needed to say. And 01:40:55
OK, so clear enough, OK. 01:40:59
Brad feels good about taking it to court. I feel good about it. You feel good about it, Brad. 01:41:05
All right. We've got the nod of approval. I think that we when I was discussing this with John too, it was that we don't, we don't 01:41:11
necessarily need a savings clause because the ordinance is already set up in our allowed uses of if it's not. 01:41:18
Expressly said as permitted, then it's just not permitted. 01:41:26
OK, that's actually opposite what Lemma says. If it's not expressly prohibited, it is allowed. 01:41:31
So if we don't have it, so. 01:41:39
Then I can do it. The tie goes to the if there's. 01:41:42
If there's a question. 01:41:45
If there's nothing in the ordinance that says you can't do it. 01:41:47
Then became, so we have. 01:41:50
For example, no car washes or no tattoos. 01:41:52
But I don't know if tattoos are expressly prohibited. 01:41:56
If they're so, it's not necessarily so. Car washes. Car washes are not in our land use table at all. So since they're not in our 01:42:01
land use table. 01:42:06
Then. 01:42:11
Permitted. 01:42:14
So you're saying that, like with a car wash, something or some other use is not in the land house? 01:42:17
They're not in the land use table, but you probably have something that says the only permitted uses are. 01:42:25
I think so. 01:42:31
Like card detailing for example, Does that fall into this list? 01:42:33
Or could I have 10 cars a day come get detailed at my house? 01:42:38
You can go to their house if I'm mobile, sure, but what if I want him to come to me because I'm lazy and they're OK with it? 01:42:44
We have that in my neighborhood, too. 01:42:51
Ginger's got it all. Everything's going down. What strip mall do you live on again? 01:42:55
Can I ask a question that I don't know, I was just poking around it just a little bit. 01:43:06
I don't know how to call code enforcement and I'm kind of. 01:43:10
This camp where it would have to be so bad before I felt like I was calling code enforcement, which is feels to me like the cops 01:43:15
on my part is because. 01:43:19
Typically. 01:43:25
Most cities will say. 01:43:27
If you want and it's because. 01:43:29
Especially reactionaries to these reactionary. 01:43:33
They were parking facility written. 01:43:36
Those are also. 01:43:39
Requestable and so then your neighbor knows. 01:43:43
Who color code? 01:43:46
So I'm just wondering, first of all, does it feel like? 01:43:49
Here's the holiday police page. Is that where I report my like? I just. I'm wondering if if we're making it easy for people to 01:43:55
have home based businesses. 01:43:59
And there's less public. 01:44:04
Is there a way to make it so public can have input without coming to this level where you're filling out a police what feels like 01:44:07
a police report on your neighbor? I would almost never do that, but I might do something that's like. 01:44:13
Hey I have a question about this. 01:44:18
Where the links I didn't even know that map of. 01:44:20
You know, the businesses like some sort of soft entry so that neighbors can ask questions, have a more genial conversation instead 01:44:23
of doing what feels like calling the police. I would never do that unless something really bad were happening. But if you're in a 01:44:30
neighborhood where there's a medium level problem and it's really annoying, it's a little bit unsafe. 01:44:36
Does this make sense? Like I feel like there needs to be some lower threshold of. 01:44:44
Of not even complaining but figuring out what's going on, initiating a conversation about mitigation. 01:44:50
Without having it be so feel so drastic. 01:44:57
So all of our code enforcement right now is done or most people we direct to this citizen request on the main page. That could be 01:45:01
clearer of code enforcement citizen engagement. There is a code enforcement department. 01:45:08
What does it look like here? Can you show it? 01:45:17
Because we are working on doing website redesign, so and we do want to have this kind of information available, we don't want 01:45:21
people necessarily calling staff if they can. 01:45:27
Find it on the website easily and. 01:45:33
Go through that route. So then what did they do? Go down to code enforcement on the left? 01:45:37
Yep. Do you reporting violation though feels very violent to me. 01:45:41
I would say because you have to disclose, report a concern, yeah, you have to give all your information. 01:45:46
Right. And that could be clear of it's not. 01:45:52
It's not available. 01:45:57
Filter. 01:46:01
Right. Access a filter. It's got to be egregious if I'm going to want to put my name to it. 01:46:04
Is, then if my neighbor finds out I don't want to be. 01:46:09
It's also a. 01:46:14
It is. We could just e-mail the code enforcement officer. It's got his e-mail there. Just send him an e-mail. And just like, hey, 01:46:15
this guy at this house is doing this. I just, you know, letting you know, do what you want with it. But are they then going to 01:46:20
tell you to fill out this? 01:46:24
Likely, so when people call, I say. 01:46:29
Yeah, I can enter in the information. 01:46:34
But if you want to be able to do this in the future, just fill it out. All of your information is confidential. It just goes to 01:46:36
the code enforcement officer. We're not telling neighbors who are. We're not interested in creating conflict. I guess you can 01:46:42
grammar request it like that. 01:46:47
What you get today once you go to Grandma. Records, Access management. Grandma. 01:46:54
You can. 01:47:00
At that point, the city has to determine. 01:47:03
Well, this is an unlawful or unreasonable invasion privacy. And that's your argument. 01:47:05
So is is your sense, I guess you're seeing these complaints. I don't know what kind of complaints is your sense that? 01:47:11
I guess we wouldn't know because you're seeing the complaints that do come through. 01:47:17
What percentage of those are reasonable versus not reasonable? And then do we have any sense whatsoever of like? 01:47:21
People that would make a complaint but aren't right. How many gingers there are. Yeah, you know, nice, nice neighbors who don't 01:47:28
want to say anything. And that's when I have people who call, I get. 01:47:34
Phone calls from people sometimes that are very Passover, right? They're like, I don't, I don't want to be that person. Like, no, 01:47:40
we want to know if there's an issue. We want to know about it. We want to make sure that people are being compliant. 01:47:47
People come in all the time when their neighbors building something, they're like, it seems like they're building really close. So 01:47:54
then we just have a conversation. 01:47:58
You know, we go through the site plan review process. Here's the setbacks. I can tell you if they have a building permit, I can 01:48:02
explain what our review process is. So a lot of it is some education with people, but you know. 01:48:09
Also encouraging people to come to us if there is an issue because we want to be able to. 01:48:15
Address issues. 01:48:22
And that kind of an environment, that's what we have in the planning office has come in, let us know we want to take care of an 01:48:24
issue if it is an issue, our code enforcement officers. 01:48:29
Conversational he's. 01:48:35
When he. 01:48:37
Out and enforces code. He's. 01:48:39
He's not confrontational with people, he says. Hey, you know, here's the issue. 01:48:43
You want to get it taken care of? 01:48:47
He rarely issues any fines. It's just. 01:48:50
Let's get this taken care of. 01:48:54
But nobody wants to be that person. 01:48:56
Well, no, but they they can. I got another. I got a neighbor who is that person, and there are a lot of people who are that 01:48:58
people. But but just by calling, you're not being that person. You're saying, hey, this is an issue that's affecting the 01:49:04
community, You should be aware of it. 01:49:09
Because it's for. 01:49:15
Greater good complaining is not inherently a bad thing. 01:49:17
I guess, I guess what it comes down to from me. 01:49:21
How do? 01:49:26
And it's not just. It's only because we know about Ginger's situation. But how do we get to the bottom? 01:49:28
Ginger situation. 01:49:35
The neighbors have to call. That's I mean, well and I think, I think it goes beyond that though I think it also goes we as a city, 01:49:37
we need to work with our business licensing department too and educating people. 01:49:45
And making sure that the people that are starting businesses that they. 01:49:52
The resources to know what's permitted. What's not permitted, how to? 01:49:57
Legally, start a business. 01:50:04
And how to be successful at it and how if you choose to do it outside of? 01:50:07
You know the. 01:50:13
Business owner, whatever. If you choose to do it in your home, how to go about it? It sounds like she's very successful. Thank you 01:50:15
very much. Yeah. 01:50:19
And you know, she's training people. 01:50:24
And unfortunately, I can guarantee that the training that she's giving him isn't You need to get properly licensed within the city 01:50:27
that you're living in, and you need to go. 01:50:32
Yeah, I mean, it's just so. 01:50:39
Maybe we need to do a better job at educating and helping new business owners. 01:50:43
Well, what it comes down to, You are on the Planning Commission. You could just knock on her door and say, hey, I just wanted to 01:50:47
let you know, like, I think what you're doing is great. But we just spent two hours tonight talking about what I'm going to do. 01:50:52
And I'm also going to tell her that it's changing and that there's going to be, like, if you have another business within 1/4 of a 01:50:57
mile that you're going to be restricted. So I'm going to tell her to hurry up. 01:51:02
Hurry up and get in there and get it done. I don't think you want to do that. 01:51:08
Well, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? It comes to this where you want people to. I think you can. You might want to knock 01:51:13
on our door as a neighbor, but you don't want to knock on her door as a member of the Planning Commission. Yeah. 01:51:18
That implies some authority to do something. 01:51:24
Catch more flies with honey. Gingers got the right approach to the complaint and share the responsibility, so they can't just say, 01:51:29
well, you're the only one that complaints about it. Well, in the bottom line, it doesn't affect my life that it's not like it's my 01:51:36
life. It's horrible right now because there's businesses going on. 01:51:42
It's definitely there. There's an impact on the neighborhood and there's lots going on. I noticed it and there's a lot going on 01:51:49
and. 01:51:53
You just get enough of that. 01:51:59
Over and over again. And it's kind of concerning, you know, It makes me wonder, OK, if this is just my little St. 01:52:01
What else is happening? 01:52:09
And I think that's where some kind of communication with code enforcement, if you can't civilly as a neighbor resolve the impact 01:52:11
that it's having on your neighborhood gets where it boils down to unfortunately. Like you know you either be able to walk up to 01:52:18
your neighbor and handle it and if you can't that's what Officer Warren Doloff gets paid to run around holiday and and tactfully 01:52:24
address for everyone to help bring compliance to those non compliance situations. 01:52:31
I do think it should be. It should start before compliance though. It should start when they're getting their business license. 01:52:37
They they should have an opportunity to be compliant. 01:52:42
Meaning that they should understand what the requirements are and go about it the right way. And you know, going back to if we can 01:52:48
make it easy enough for them that they're like, OK, I'm not gonna lie on the application, I can be honest and still. 01:52:54
You know, operate legally. That's going to make a big difference too, right? And I think that's. 01:53:02
Exactly the point. 01:53:08
If it's a difficult process, you're going to have people who even with all of the education, you have a business license official 01:53:11
that's saying here's what you need to do. You can't have clients come to your house. They're going to find some way around it if 01:53:18
it means that they don't have to go through this process of a Planning Commission and public hearing. 01:53:25
So with the cello teacher, when she came in and we're like, you have to have a conditional use permit, You have to have a parking, 01:53:33
You know, you have to show your parking. You have to show your hours of operation. You have to have a public hearing. Like she was 01:53:40
almost in tears over that process and you saw that when she came in as well. You know, this is this huge process and now you have 01:53:47
to do all this. I'm just trying to teach cello lessons. So how do we make that process easier? 01:53:54
Which brings us back to what we've been discussing now, and unless anyone has any other questions on it, I'm wondering if are we 01:54:03
at this point comfortable enough that we can maybe make a motion with the suggested changes? This is Commissioner Prince. I'm 01:54:08
prepared to make a motion this evening. 01:54:12
Yes. I motion to forward a recommendation to the City Council to approve the application to amend Holiday City code 13.100 and 01:54:19
13.76 point 760 of the City of Holiday Land Use Code to allow for home occupations to be permitted with standards approved by 01:54:27
staff, based upon the following findings. 01:54:34
Compliance with the purpose of the Land Development Code by promoting and facilitating the orderly growth and development within 01:54:42
the City of Holiday. 01:54:46
Compliance with the goals and properties or policies of the General Plan by establishing appropriate development standards for all 01:54:50
uses and zoning categories within the City of Holiday. 01:54:55
And the additions that we specifically discussed in this meeting. 01:55:01
Particularly Commissioner Cunningham's. 01:55:07
We have a motion. Do we have a second? 01:55:11
All right, we have a second from Commissioner Cunningham and we will go ahead and call for a vote. Then I will start down here, 01:55:14
Commissioner Barrett, Commissioner gone, Commissioner Prince, Commissioner, Commissioner Cunningham and Commissioner and 01:55:21
Commissioner Roach votes aye and it passes unanimously. 01:55:27
Great discussion and appreciate everyone's input on this and hopefully this will take care of a whole lot of work on our future 01:55:34
calendar once it's all finalized and approved. And with that, I think that brings us to where we can close our meeting and call it 01:55:41
a night. All in favor, say aye, aye, done. Be safe. 01:55:47
Anyone else see the camp game? 01:55:58
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Are we starting with training? 00:00:01
Oh, OK, I thought we put it after, but. 00:00:04
That. 00:00:07
Yeah. 00:00:09
Well, you're already up. Unless anyone's opposed, I'm fine with getting the training out of the way first, unless anybody. 00:00:16
Got concerns with that. Do we need to call the order meeting to order? Can we just jump right into training first? 00:00:23
Right. OK. Well, then it is 6:01 PM. 00:00:30
On January. 00:00:36
9th Does that sound right? 00:00:38
I only looked at the date 12 times today. Yeah, January 9th, 2024 on this holiday. City Planning Commission. We have all members 00:00:41
in attendance. 00:00:45
Along with City staff Kerry Mash and Brad Christopher, some legal counsel who is going to start us off today with training. 00:00:50
Gary, let's jump to. 00:00:59
So we're going to go over general powers and duties. I have at least one hour of that every year. If we can jump in, it doesn't 00:01:10
have to limit to that, but we're going to call this our one hour of general powers to. 00:01:15
Administrative legisl. 00:01:23
So. 00:01:27
I think it's advancing, but the numbers. 00:01:31
So the next one. 00:01:35
Oh, I see. 00:01:40
All the bullets, there we go. 00:01:42
So Atlanta's decision you want to make? 00:01:44
You said the 2nd. 00:01:51
You just put the cursor in the middle of those two screens and slide that bar over to the right. So. 00:02:01
Your next slide is a much smaller preview. 00:02:09
It was there in the. 00:02:13
So a land use decision is means legislative decision enacted by ordinance. 00:02:19
Resolution, specification, fee or rule that governs the use for development. The plan. 00:02:25
Includes the adoption of the minimum zoning. 00:02:30
Code does not include. 00:02:34
Decision Legislative body acting as the land use authority. 00:02:36
Decisions expressing resolution. 00:02:40
Or a temporary revision. 00:02:43
This is usually City Council does land use decisions. 00:02:46
Thank you. 00:02:54
Decision is what you guys usually do. 00:03:00
Right. 00:03:03
There you go. An administrative decision is typically what you guys handle based. Don't be legislated because you're not. 00:03:07
Lawmaking body for a decision making. 00:03:14
And. 00:03:17
Basically an authority that Utah allows for city council's to grant. 00:03:17
Do the duties that they. 00:03:23
So typically, language decision is a decision on a land use permit. 00:03:26
Use application or potentially. 00:03:30
The other type of land use, so there's three different. 00:03:44
So there's land use regulations, there's land use decisions, and then there's land use appeals. 00:03:48
Bills can go before hearing officer. 00:03:52
They can go before. 00:03:57
Adjustment. 00:04:01
Volunteers. 00:04:05
Much as yourselves. 00:04:06
To hear appeals of language decisions. 00:04:08
One of the reasons that a lot of cities that move away from. 00:04:14
Is they are typically very. 00:04:18
Not very objective. They make decisions based on. 00:04:23
How they feel and if they know the person. 00:04:27
So they've got to have a little more structure. 00:04:33
Most cities, especially larger cities, they're going to have a little more structure and have a hearing officer. 00:04:37
Usually. 00:04:41
One side note on that. 00:04:51
Those are a lot less likely to be. 00:04:54
And although the expense of preparing for them is higher. 00:04:58
The cost overall is lower. 00:05:02
Oftentimes when you get a subjective decision from a board. 00:05:05
So, OK, we're not going to get into all the appeal standards. 00:05:21
Land Use and Development Management Act. That's. I don't know if it's Title 10, Chapter 9. 00:05:31
Regularly. 00:05:48
A lot of those, especially in the. 00:05:50
Decade. There's been a lot. 00:05:54
That's been a lot. 00:06:02
Special interests that are heavily involved in. 00:06:03
And they've been successful. 00:06:10
So lagma is. 00:06:16
It grants authority to say May about its own land use standards, so long as they're consistent with federal and state law. 00:06:18
Mandates the creation of Planning Commission. 00:06:24
And the establishment of land use and. 00:06:28
Also requires and it depends on the population, but there. 00:06:32
As the city grows in population. 00:06:40
The more. 00:06:43
Animal deployments in general. 00:06:46
Adoption, general planning process, considering decision applications has to be laid out so the cities can follow. 00:06:54
Property owners. 00:07:01
OK. Next slide on general themes, so Blood money in general. 00:07:04
Require cities to respect private property rights. Cities are allowed to regulate private property. 00:07:09
Once written and established. 00:07:16
Courts. 00:07:23
Heavy-handed when it comes to cities and following. 00:07:25
I'd like to just ask real quick how. 00:07:32
Oversight is there from city versus state when it comes to property, right? Is it about? 00:07:35
5050 or new cities have way more. 00:07:40
Things they tack on to private property rights that the state does. 00:07:43
Well, so the. 00:07:47
The state is the sovereign and then. 00:07:50
Allow counties to do some of that so the state doesn't get into land use decisions. 00:07:53
Very often except. 00:07:58
Well, they give a little bit of land use authority to school districts. 00:08:01
Basically, you can come in in the school district. 00:08:05
School district wants to buy property and put up a. 00:08:07
So because they're also a political subdivision, a special subdivision. 00:08:16
Of the state separate, they're not governed by. 00:08:20
It can be like Murray, for example. They used to be close, more closely related. 00:08:24
They are. 00:08:30
But then the count is unincorporated. Property counting would be the land use authority there, but cities are the land use 00:08:35
authority. 00:08:38
So what I think maybe your question is. 00:08:45
Is the state historically cities have had. 00:08:50
Basically complete authority over anything within their borders. 00:08:54
You know, subject to. 00:08:57
Federal law can't. 00:08:59
And, you know, treat people differently. 00:09:00
But. 00:09:08
We're all getting the whatever work. 00:09:12
It's going to snow, OK? 00:09:19
State grants counties and cities the authority to do. 00:09:25
To regulate and. 00:09:29
In the last four or five years, maybe. 00:09:31
A lot of lobbying efforts have gone into. 00:09:37
Those rabbits. 00:09:44
Housing product. 00:09:47
Younger, growing. 00:09:51
Less money. 00:09:56
You know, a generation that can afford, you know? 00:10:01
Half $1,000,000 house. 00:10:04
Ten years ago, Half million dollars. 00:10:07
Would buy you a nice place and. 00:10:10
Do they have a? 00:10:14
So traditionally, cities are like 9095% deciding what's going on. Just stay oversight and county oversight. 00:10:20
You're the land authority. You guys can regulate how you want, and your council and your elected officials can decide that and set 00:10:29
policy limits. And here's what you do. That's your job. We're not giving policy. 00:10:33