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Holiday Planning Commission. 00:00:00
I have done a couple of closed sessions for planning commissions. 00:00:01
And those were typically related to threats of legal action. 00:00:05
By applicants. 00:00:09
And then going over. 00:00:11
All the time going over. 00:00:13
Here's the issue. 00:00:16
I'm not telling you how to vote, but I'm telling you what you should consider when you make your vote. 00:00:18
Those kind of things. 00:00:22
So you get a substantial evidence kind of situation and the other, the other reasons are if we're discussing. 00:00:24
Like some sensitive property transaction or someone's character which I don't know if it's. So I have done that with the Planning 00:00:30
Commission before I. 00:00:34
Where you're talking about the professional character or mental competency of an individual. 00:00:38
Or if a crimes been committed. 00:00:44
Typically if a crime has been committed by a planning commissioner. 00:00:46
The city will typically deal with that outside. The Planning Commission wouldn't need to deal with that. The City Council might 00:00:48
need to deal with it. 00:00:51
But the Planning Commission. 00:00:55
Wouldn't deal with that directly. 00:00:56
Just interested in Yeah, we'll, we'll get to the, we'll get to those. 00:00:59
But anyway and so that. 00:01:04
The same numbers apply. 00:01:06
So Holiday has a six member council. 00:01:11
They have to have. 00:01:13
Council members and the mayor is not included in that quorum count. 00:01:15
Yes, Actually, no, the mayor does vote in in holiday. 00:01:18
They have. 00:01:23
Grandfathered form of government. 00:01:24
So can I ask a question about the? 00:01:26
Quorum for the Building Commission. 00:01:29
If there are four members and an applicant can tell it's not going to go well, but they think it might be more favorable if more 00:01:32
people were there. 00:01:36
Can they say hang on a second, I'm going to bring my application back next week? 00:01:40
They can't do that at any point in the process. 00:01:45
They don't have. They can. They can request that. You don't have to do that. 00:01:48
But I've never. 00:01:51
I've never been in a situation where. 00:01:54
That I would recommend. 00:02:00
Against that, if the applicant wants to withdraw and hold his, hold his or her application. 00:02:01
I would just allow them to do it. And conversely, if there's an issue that feels thorny and we're like, wait a second, let's wait 00:02:07
for everyone to be here, we could continue in. Yeah, The Planning Commission has the ability to. I mean, it would be, it would be 00:02:11
a motion to table. 00:02:15
Right, I move that we table this item until the full Planning Commission can hear this. 00:02:20
Right. And we've done that before here I can. 00:02:24
A couple of. 00:02:27
My head that we've done that. 00:02:28
The other thing that you so. 00:02:33
Anytime we have a public meeting and we had that issue today. 00:02:36
Right. How long? How long? When do you have to have? 00:02:39
The public meeting amendment posted. 00:02:43
Is it a 24 or 48 hours? 24 hours? 00:02:46
24 is after that. 00:02:49
Yep. So if you tried it, you can't. You cannot amend an agenda if there's less than 24 hours between now and the beginning of the 00:02:51
meeting. 00:02:54
So. 00:02:58
There's always an exception, right? 00:03:01
The exception is an emergency. 00:03:03
Typically there aren't Planning Commission emergencies. 00:03:05
That's something I have been involved in a couple of. 00:03:08
Emergency City Council meetings. 00:03:12
Those related to. 00:03:14
Violence that had was occurring in real time. The other one was related to a fire on a mountain. 00:03:17
That was happening in real time, so they convened a City Council meeting, too. 00:03:23
Appropriate some additional funding for. 00:03:27
Water trucks to come in. 00:03:31
So. 00:03:34
Let's see. 00:03:36
The other thing, That's as far as public notice. 00:03:37
When? When? Our city recorder Stephanie does a great job. 00:03:40
Putting these together. 00:03:44
And. 00:03:46
One of the things that's required is it says your agenda has to have. 00:03:47
Reasonable specificity of topics. 00:03:51
So you can't just put on there public hearing code text amendment. 00:03:54
Period. 00:03:59
Essay of what code are you amending? 00:04:00
And you know, it doesn't have to have the full blown. Here's the amendment that has to be available also, but through the packet. 00:04:02
But the agenda has to say. 00:04:05
Public hearing to amend. 00:04:09
This section of city code. 00:04:11
So you have to have a reasonable specificity so that any member of the public can look at the agenda. 00:04:13
It's available on the website and say oh. 00:04:17
OK. I'm interested in that. I'm going to go to that meeting. 00:04:19
Do people have to go somewhere else to see the packet? 00:04:22
Typically it's. 00:04:27
It's on the website right there. The agenda typically has its own link, and then the packet has a separate link so you're not 00:04:28
downloading. 00:04:31
300 pages unless you want to. 00:04:34
So sometimes they can be quite lengthy. 00:04:36
But they're easy to find. They're right next to each other. Yes, good. 00:04:38
They didn't used to be. They've updated the website from what I understand, right? 00:04:40
Because I feel like I've gone looking for the packet before on the public side and it was like not there. 00:04:46
Good question. 00:04:53
But I know they redid the website and let's test it. 00:04:59
Year. 00:05:02
Nice. Yeah, there's the agenda packet right there. 00:05:04
So yes, it has been fixed. 00:05:08
Sweet. Better organized. 00:05:10
That's great. The other thing that you guys have been through 100 times, well, 100 times a few. 00:05:13
Times. 00:05:18
Every year, the Planning Commission, any public body which is the City Council or. 00:05:21
A board of trustees if it's a different form of municipal entity. 00:05:26
Or a Planning Commission has to post its annual meeting schedule. 00:05:30
We did that. We approved it, if you remember, in December. 00:05:34
That's been posted with the Utah Public Notice website. 00:05:38
The other thing is public notices have to be posted in two places, the Utah Public Notice website, which is run by the state. 00:05:40
And the other one is at. 00:05:46
City Hall. 00:05:48
That's where we post those two things. It used to require a notice in the newspaper. 00:05:50
Since we're really newspapers like they once were. 00:05:55
Got delivered every home or most homes? 00:05:58
State doesn't require it anymore. It's kind of. 00:06:01
Unable to comply with that, so we don't require it. 00:06:04
Is it a requirement that they be available on Zoom? 00:06:06
No. 00:06:10
The only requirement is that they be available on Zoom is if you're going to allow. 00:06:12
You guys to attend via Zoom? 00:06:18
So if you're going to allow. 00:06:21
Remote participation, and we have that allowed. 00:06:23
But you have to if you guys are going to be. 00:06:26
Having the meeting electronically. 00:06:28
Then you have to have meaningful. Is the term meaningful? 00:06:31
Ways for the public to participate. 00:06:35
So you have to have availability for them to publicly address during a public hearing. 00:06:37
Be able to submit comments whether. 00:06:43
Written or. 00:06:45
Voice you need to be able to make sure that they are able to meaningfully. 00:06:47
Meaningfully participate. 00:06:51
In the meeting. 00:06:53
So. 00:06:55
And Holiday has adopted that and that's actually the next topic is electronically. 00:06:57
The city has to formally. 00:07:03
Authorize that. 00:07:04
Which they have. 00:07:05
City and its code has. 00:07:06
Electronic meeting. 00:07:09
Policies. 00:07:10
The changes there have been changes in electronic meeting. 00:07:12
Section they used to require. 00:07:16
That. 00:07:18
It was only you had to have. 00:07:20
Somebody had to be here. 00:07:22
Somebody had to be at an anchor location. 00:07:24
And it had to be within the city, right? They don't require that anymore. 00:07:26
But they do require that if you. 00:07:31
Are going to do that? 00:07:34
As I said before, meaningful participation. 00:07:35
They're able to meaningfully monitor, listen. 00:07:38
Anticipate. 00:07:41
If there's public comment section, they have to be able to do that. 00:07:42
One of the challenges that we saw with that during COVID. 00:07:45
Is that there were. 00:07:48
You know some bad actors that would take over meetings? They figured out ways to. 00:07:50
You know, hack the meeting and hijack it and then. 00:07:54
You know, have some obscene material that was shared to the public that was participating in those. 00:07:57
That happened here in Utah on multiple occasions, so. 00:08:04
That's one of the things that is. 00:08:07
Just a word of warning. 00:08:09
But yeah, that's. 00:08:12
Umm. 00:08:14
Let's see. 00:08:17
OK, then let's see minutes and recording required of all meetings so. 00:08:22
As you know, Carrie turns on the recorder. 00:08:26
Record this entire meeting. 00:08:29
And it is broadcast. We do this on YouTube, right? 00:08:31
YouTube. 00:08:34
On the city's website. 00:08:36
So we have a live feed on the city's website. 00:08:40
Some cities use YouTube, some cities use Zoom. 00:08:43
But there's typically recording is required. It doesn't have to be a video recording. 00:08:46
But you have to maintain an audio recording most places. 00:08:50
With. 00:08:54
The ease and availability of cameras. 00:08:54
Are having video with audio with video. 00:08:57
So. 00:09:00
Written minutes are required. Does anybody know what the official record? 00:09:02
Meeting is. 00:09:06
The meeting minutes. The meeting minutes are the official record. The audio recording is not the official record. Neither is the 00:09:10
video recording, but the. 00:09:13
Minutes are. 00:09:17
Minutes are not required to. 00:09:19
Be a transcript of what occurred. 00:09:21
And not word for word. It's meant to be a. 00:09:25
Kind of this is what happened. 00:09:28
You know, minutes could be as simple as. 00:09:30
You know, Mr. Christopherson provided the open and public meetings training and that took from this time to this time. 00:09:33
It could be as straightforward as that. 00:09:40
So which is important considering next meeting if there's something in particular that. 00:09:41
You felt was an impressive point that needed to be. 00:09:46
Called out then you could ask to amend that on the official meeting minutes if it was omitted for some reason, correct? Yep, to 00:09:49
give you a chance to. 00:09:53
Review and then they have to be approved. The only the approved minutes are the official record, right? 00:09:58
Draft minutes. 00:10:03
Have to be posted three days after. 00:10:05
Within 3 days. 00:10:08
The audio recording has to be available within three days after the meeting, the draft minutes as soon as they are prepared. 00:10:10
You know is a reasonable time after they are prepared so you don't have to come up with draft minutes if they don't exist. 00:10:17
But. 00:10:22
Should you try to get them? 00:10:24
Available as soon as. 00:10:25
Soon as you can. 00:10:27
And then once they're approved minutes, they have to be posted within 24 hours. 00:10:28
So no, sorry. 00:10:33
That's the three days. 00:10:35
Three days is the approve minutes. 00:10:37
How long do you have to retain the minutes? 00:10:40
Probably indefinitely. 00:10:44
Permanently. How long do you have to retain the audio recording? 00:10:45
Guessing a couple of years. 00:10:48
Indefinitely, yeah. 00:10:50
Permanently. 00:10:52
It's my great grandkids can watch this. 00:10:53
And the the wording from the state statute on what's in the minutes, the substance of what was shared. 00:10:57
Needs to be. 00:11:02
I'll e-mail the PowerPoint here that I'm so that it can be included in the in the minutes as part of the city record. 00:11:04
Although how are our minutes constructed? Is that AI transcription and then condensed somehow? Or is it a human? Right now I 00:11:10
believe they're all human. Done. 00:11:14
There are. 00:11:19
Schools that are getting better and better at. 00:11:21
AI tools that are getting better and better at preparing minutes. 00:11:23
So some of them. 00:11:27
They're really good at doing a transcription. 00:11:29
They're less good right now. 00:11:31
Less sophisticated to create minutes. 00:11:35
That aren't a transcription, a summary of important stuff that was shared. 00:11:37
But there are some that are actually. 00:11:41
Quite sophisticated at doing it and. 00:11:43
They're becoming. 00:11:46
More and more available and. 00:11:47
Cheaper. 00:11:48
Let's see. 00:11:51
Umm, now. 00:11:53
I use this term and not everybody will remember this but. 00:11:55
I don't remember it from having when it happened. I don't think I was born quite yet, but. 00:11:58
The Watergate tapes, What was wrong with those? 00:12:04
The Watergate. 00:12:07
Tapes the missing 18 minutes. Missing 18 minutes so. 00:12:08
You have to have a complete unedited. 00:12:13
Record. 00:12:15
On the audio recording. 00:12:17
So the Watergate tapes would not be in compliant if they had been. 00:12:19
There's missing 18 minutes. 00:12:24
So again, those have to be. 00:12:25
Available, as I said, within 3 days of the meeting. 00:12:27
Available to the public. 00:12:30
Typically on the website. 00:12:32
And they are required to be. 00:12:33
Permanently retained as well. 00:12:35
Which we said I got ahead of myself. 00:12:37
Umm, again? 00:12:40
OK. So hang on a minute. Yeah. So you have to have a quorum for a proposed meeting, for a closed meeting. 00:12:42
Plus 2/3 of the vote. 00:12:47
Right. So we did get that clear. 00:12:49
And it has to be for one of the purposes in. 00:12:53
Utah Code Title 52. 00:12:56
Chapter 4. Section 205. 00:12:58
So again, we talked about. 00:13:01
Strategy session to discuss litigation. 00:13:02
Strategy session to discuss the acquisition of real property. 00:13:05
Acquisition or sale of real property. 00:13:09
Mental, Mental. Physical. 00:13:12
Were professional competency. 00:13:15
Of an individual. 00:13:18
Those ones, there's a little nuance to that. You don't maintain a recording of that one. 00:13:19
Can you guys guess why? 00:13:23
Well, you don't maintain a recording of. 00:13:26
A closed meeting about someone's mental competency. 00:13:28
Yeah, that's the only one you don't maintain a recording of all the other ones you do. 00:13:31
Really. Yeah. 00:13:36
Why do you think that is? 00:13:37
Say that again, the court can disagree that. 00:13:40
True, but that's not why. So it's an exception in the statute of why the statute? 00:13:46
The reason they do that is because they want people to be able to be open. 00:13:53
And be able to share and. 00:13:57
Have a meaningful discussion without fear of retribution. 00:14:00
And we don't want to violate HIPAA either. 00:14:03
So. 00:14:06
Is that the mental or physical competency of. 00:14:08
An applicant. 00:14:13
No. 00:14:16
It would typically, so you guys would. I can't imagine a scenario. 00:14:17
That that would come before the Planning Commission. It does come before the City Council. 00:14:22
Right, because they're the ultimate. 00:14:26
Authority. The legislative body of the city. So you would. 00:14:28
If you want to terminate. 00:14:31
You know somebody's employment. 00:14:32
Because of character or mental or physical competency of an individual. Their ability to do a job. 00:14:35
You would hold a closed session to have that discussion, so. 00:14:41
Private. You wouldn't want those deliberations to be public. 00:14:44
So those are kind of those situations and I have been involved in a number of those over the years. 00:14:47
So if we all deem that the applicant is. 00:14:53
Appearing to be mentally incompetent, we would just roll forward and try and be nice. 00:14:56
You'd probably ask staff to say, hey, you know, are you OK? You know, like, say, let's take a recess. I would probably break the 00:15:01
meeting, pause the meeting for a minute, take a recess, everybody get a drink. 00:15:06
Use restroom, whatever. 00:15:12
And then have somebody from staff probably approaching. 00:15:14
Say hey, everything alright? 00:15:17
So I wouldn't just. 00:15:19
Well. 00:15:21
This is entertaining. Let's keep going. 00:15:22
Umm, let's see deployment of security measures. 00:15:26
That's one that you would do, but that again, that wouldn't be. 00:15:31
There wouldn't be anything that we would do in Planning Commission but City Council. 00:15:35
Well, we did one for the Planning Commission two years ago or a year and a half ago. Oh, that's true, actually, yeah. 00:15:39
To notify of a kind of like emergency. 00:15:45
Preparation, right? 00:15:47
There you go. So yeah, we could do that. 00:15:49
Let's see one of the So the other thing, and this goes for more for Council, but. 00:15:53
UMM is specifically stated that you cannot. 00:15:58
Conduct interviews to appoint a member of to the body in. 00:16:02
In a closed session. 00:16:07
So this is typically for vacancy on the City Council. 00:16:09
If they want to, if there's a vacancy on the City Council, they have to produce notice. 00:16:11
And notify anybody that wants to that they there's a vacancy and if you want to apply to this. 00:16:15
You know it's open and here's the requirements. 00:16:20
To be a registered voter in living in the area for X amount of time. 00:16:23
I think it's. 00:16:28
There's a couple of different. 00:16:31
I can't remember if it's a year, if it's six months living in the. 00:16:33
In the district or the city where you're trying to be appointed? 00:16:36
And then? 00:16:39
You have to be registered voter. I know that's required. 00:16:41
Umm, but you cannot conduct those interviews in a closed session. They have to be conducted in an open meeting that the public can 00:16:44
attend. 00:16:47
And then there has to be a public vote on it. 00:16:51
It's really kind of disconcerting for the applicants. 00:16:53
But. 00:16:56
They knew that before they submitted their application. 00:16:57
It's not how. 00:17:00
Councilman Brewer got on the. 00:17:01
Council when that seat was vacated. 00:17:03
Right, like 3-4 years ago. Yeah, I believe so. 00:17:07
Let's see emergency meeting. The funny thing is that emergency is not defined in the statute. 00:17:14
We talked a little bit about those, but you have to have. 00:17:19
A majority of the members of the body public body have to approve the meeting. 00:17:23
So. 00:17:28
Three members of the Planning Commission can't just have a meeting. 00:17:29
In an emergency situation because. 00:17:31
They want to. They still have to have 4. You still have to have a quorum. 00:17:33
Umm, and that you have to attempt to notify all members so that you don't. 00:17:37
Purposely leave somebody out. 00:17:44
And you have to give us best notice as is practical. 00:17:47
Practicable for the situation. 00:17:50
So if there's a fire burning on the mountain and you need to. 00:17:53
Be able to have a meeting. 00:17:56
To address you, know your evacuation plans if necessary and discuss those in a meeting. 00:17:57
Umm, you. 00:18:02
Try to notify everyone if you can. 00:18:04
And you make the. 00:18:07
You make the. 00:18:08
The best possible effort to do it, but. 00:18:09
If somebody is out of town. 00:18:12
They're not going to be there. 00:18:14
So anyway. 00:18:15
But we can zoom it. 00:18:17
You could you have the ability as long as we make the public able to meaningfully participate. 00:18:20
The other thing this is the other thing that the updates to this. 00:18:27
So. 00:18:30
There was always some discussion. 00:18:32
If the. 00:18:34
If the City Council is. 00:18:36
As the blue moon. 00:18:38
Festival. 00:18:40
And. 00:18:42
Majority of the City Council is going to be there. Do you have to put out a public notice that the City Council is going to be at 00:18:43
the Blue Moon Festival? 00:18:46
I was going to ask that question if they're at the same event together or if they actually meet together. 00:18:50
So that goes back to the definition of a meeting, right? 00:18:57
So it has to be a meeting that's called by the body. 00:19:01
Right for the purpose of conducting public business, right. 00:19:05
So. 00:19:08
They used to have this big question. Well, what about a social gathering? We don't want them talking about it. You're still not 00:19:10
supposed to talk about public business. 00:19:13
At a meeting. 00:19:16
Or at excuse me. 00:19:17
At a meeting you are supposed to at a social gathering. 00:19:19
Or at a Blue Moon festival. 00:19:21
But the question has come up over and over again. Well, should you put out a public notice for that? 00:19:23
You don't need to put out a public notice for that, because you're not there intentionally talking about it now. 00:19:28
Should a quorum of you get together and sit together at a public at a blue moon festival and sit next to each other? 00:19:33
On the lawn. 00:19:40
Probably not. 00:19:41
It just gives a bad look. 00:19:43
Not so much for the Planning Commission, but again for the City Council if they were sitting together. 00:19:46
But the other thing is I had. 00:19:50
Had a City Council that. 00:19:52
One of the City Council members, who was new, wanted to get to know. 00:19:54
The council members to have you know. 00:19:57
Hopefully create some unity and some. 00:19:59
You know, build. 00:20:02
You know rapport with his fellow council members so he invited them all to a BBQ. 00:20:03
And the city recorder insisted on putting out a public notice. 00:20:07
But it's like, wait, he doesn't want. 00:20:11
Everybody knows where he lives, right? Because you have to put your address up when you're running for public office. But it's 00:20:13
like. 00:20:15
Why do we have to? 00:20:19
You know, so the Legislature has. 00:20:20
Thought that was kind of silly. 00:20:22
So you don't have to put out a notice for a social gathering. So. 00:20:24
Anyway. 00:20:28
There is a. The other question that always comes up on these is. 00:20:29
What about sending a text message? 00:20:35
During the meeting. 00:20:38
To another person like if I text her. 00:20:42
I would imagine that's not legal because it's not part of the public record if it's. 00:20:47
Like if I say, hey, I like your it's not, it's not illegal, right? 00:20:51
But if you send a message, but what? But you're not conducting your deliberations openly. So it could potentially be a violation 00:20:55
of the Open and Public Meetings Act because you're having conversations regarding the public's business. 00:21:00
Not in a closed session. 00:21:06
So what if somebody from. 00:21:08
Let's say. 00:21:11
That Commissioner, you know that, Chair Roaches. 00:21:12
Relative. 00:21:19
Was bringing an application before the city or before the Planning Commission? 00:21:20
And. 00:21:24
That relative starts texting Commissioner Roche during the. 00:21:26
During the meeting. 00:21:29
Do I have to recuse myself anyway, right? 00:21:31
Should, yes. 00:21:34
You. 00:21:35
You don't have to. You have to notify in writing of your conflict of interest. 00:21:37
Right, if you don't recruit yourself, you have to write about your conflict of interest. 00:21:41
But yes, they're texting me about what is happening in the public hearing. Then that would violate that because they have to come 00:21:47
to the podium and make it part of the public record, right? 00:21:51
So you didn't have control over that? 00:21:56
Right. 00:21:59
So my advice to you is. 00:22:00
Don't respond to it. 00:22:02
If they're sending you text messages. 00:22:05
Don't respond to it. 00:22:07
Right. I mean, talk to him after the meeting. 00:22:08
The easiest thing is. 00:22:11
Don't create a written record. 00:22:14
A phone call is not a written record. 00:22:16
Right. So you can't take a phone call in that situation. Don't do that anyway, don't take. 00:22:18
Identify the conflict of interest. 00:22:24
But if there's a question. 00:22:25
If you've got a question, a phone call is so much easier. 00:22:27
To avoid the creation of the record. 00:22:30
And especially. 00:22:32
When we don't have, when the city is not paying for your phones. 00:22:33
This is a personal cell phone. 00:22:36
The worst I've had to do this. 00:22:38
Got a grandma request? 00:22:40
From individuals, Council members. 00:22:42
They were texting or planning commissioners texting back and forth. 00:22:44
To people in the audience. 00:22:47
And. 00:22:51
Then the vote went. 00:22:52
Bad for the applicant. 00:22:53
And the applicant grandma requested all the text messages that were received. 00:22:56
Meeting. Those are all. 00:22:59
Records under grandma. 00:23:02
It's also embarrassing. 00:23:05
Can be very embarrassing. 00:23:07
So just don't do it if there's an issue that. 00:23:09
We're going to be discussing in a meeting. 00:23:13
And I'll and this has happened, I'll send. 00:23:15
Dennis, a text saying. 00:23:18
Sure. 00:23:20
Phone conversation. 00:23:22
If there's only two of you on the line or only three of you on the line. 00:23:24
Totally appropriate and totally fine. 00:23:27
It's when you get 4. 00:23:30
On the line and you're discussing public business. 00:23:31
That's a problem. 00:23:33
And we can't make any decisions in those conversations. 00:23:35
Well, I mean, candidly, you could say this is how I'm planning on voting on this. What do you think? 00:23:38
Well, sometimes it's just a matter of. 00:23:44
Help me understand. Sure. 00:23:46
Provide some. 00:23:49
That's OK. 00:23:52
It is, yeah. That is, that is totally OK. That's I mean. 00:23:53
You want to be. 00:23:56
Before you make, you want to be informed before you make the decision. 00:23:58
Right, if it happens during the meeting. 00:24:01
Than it that's a record, Yeah. So if yeah, you shouldn't have communications about the meeting during the meeting. 00:24:03
That the public is not able to. 00:24:10
Hear or participate in. 00:24:12
So I could say nice haircut and a text message that's fine. But if I say hey. 00:24:15
Get a load of this guy. That's a problem, right? Yeah. You don't want that. You don't want to do that. 00:24:19
Here's here's the other thing. So. 00:24:24
Here's what happened in this particular one. 00:24:26
There's a YouTube recording. 00:24:28
Posted permanently available. 00:24:29
On the city's channel, right. 00:24:31
The applicant that where this was held wasn't even there at the meeting. 00:24:35
But he watched the video. 00:24:40
She's one of the. 00:24:42
One of the elected officials. 00:24:45
Tapping out during the meeting. 00:24:47
Whoever that's to. 00:24:50
It's a record because it occurred during the meeting. 00:24:52
So don't create a record during the meeting that you're not prepared to turn over. 00:24:55
So. 00:25:02
Anyway. 00:25:03
To keep my inappropriate text to before and after. 00:25:05
All right, got it. 00:25:12
So these are some of the things. 00:25:13
They think are interesting. 00:25:18
Kind of principles in public hearings. 00:25:19
So residents of the city have a right to be heard during the public hearing. 00:25:22
Members of the public body are not required to respond to questions or comments. 00:25:26
At the podium that are brought to you by the podium. 00:25:31
Umm, public hearings should typically be opened by motion. 00:25:34
And a vote. 00:25:39
We could. 00:25:40
That's something that. 00:25:42
That's something we can do. 00:25:45
Here to remedy SO. 00:25:46
Anybody have a motion to open the public hearing? 00:25:48
Not everybody does that. 00:25:52
But. 00:25:54
That's perfect practice. 00:25:56
To open a public meeting. To motion to vote, to open the meeting hearing for this. To hear comment on this issue for item number 00:25:59
three on the agenda. 00:26:02
It would have wish people vote no. They could. 00:26:07
Right. Like why would you have a vote if you're? 00:26:11
Obligated to have a public hearing? You have to do it. 00:26:13
Umm, so we've typically opened them and there hasn't been any opposition. I mean, everybody has been through this process before. 00:26:16
That doesn't make the ones we've done defective. 00:26:23
But to. 00:26:26
Perfect. Our practice. 00:26:29
For whatever reason, if someone felt like they didn't want a public hearing opened at the time. 00:26:32
It was scheduled and supposed to happen. Could there be an argument made and a motion to call for a vote before opening it? 00:26:38
An argument. Let's say that again, like, could someone make an argument to not open the vote? Let's get. The applicant wasn't 00:26:47
there and said, hey, the applicant called. 00:26:52
And so let's let's have a motion to table this until next meeting. 00:26:57
You could do that, but if you're just like, oh, I see a bunch of people I don't like here and that's going to be bad for me today. 00:27:01
So like, I want a motion to not have the meeting. We could know. Yeah, you wouldn't. That would be the planning commission's, not 00:27:04
the applicant. 00:27:08
Right, if it's already been publicly noticed. 00:27:13
That ship sailed OK. 00:27:16
All right, that goes back to the first one. Residents of the city have a right to be heard, right? Right. 00:27:17
So. 00:27:21
The other thing, on land use applications, what happens typically after the public hearing? What do you usually do? 00:27:23
With the applicant. 00:27:29
Well, we invite the applicant to come up and address the comments made by the public and they have, that's a statutory right that 00:27:31
they have to address any public comments that were made during the. 00:27:36
Umm, they can make. They can bring additional information to respond to it, and they can even make legal arguments if they want. 00:27:41
Or any. 00:27:44
Doesn't have to be a legal argument, they could make that. 00:27:48
Umm, the. 00:27:50
The public comment and we've already announced this in it when we have a public hearing. 00:27:55
Does not have to be unending, right? 00:27:59
There's no right of. 00:28:01
We don't have the public well, we're concerned about the traffic. We don't need to hear. 00:28:03
75 people come up and say, Yep, I'm also concerned about the traffic, right? That's why we say. 00:28:07
We understand, we get it. Traffic's been said. 00:28:13
You know we don't need that again. 00:28:16
So if you've got something different, let's bring it up, but we don't need this here, 75 people said. I'm also concerned with the 00:28:18
traffic. 00:28:20
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Holiday Planning Commission. 00:00:00
I have done a couple of closed sessions for planning commissions. 00:00:01
And those were typically related to threats of legal action. 00:00:05
By applicants. 00:00:09
And then going over. 00:00:11
All the time going over. 00:00:13
Here's the issue. 00:00:16
I'm not telling you how to vote, but I'm telling you what you should consider when you make your vote. 00:00:18
Those kind of things. 00:00:22
So you get a substantial evidence kind of situation and the other, the other reasons are if we're discussing. 00:00:24
Like some sensitive property transaction or someone's character which I don't know if it's. So I have done that with the Planning 00:00:30
Commission before I. 00:00:34
Where you're talking about the professional character or mental competency of an individual. 00:00:38
Or if a crimes been committed. 00:00:44
Typically if a crime has been committed by a planning commissioner. 00:00:46
The city will typically deal with that outside. The Planning Commission wouldn't need to deal with that. The City Council might 00:00:48
need to deal with it. 00:00:51
But the Planning Commission. 00:00:55
Wouldn't deal with that directly. 00:00:56
Just interested in Yeah, we'll, we'll get to the, we'll get to those. 00:00:59
But anyway and so that. 00:01:04
The same numbers apply. 00:01:06
So Holiday has a six member council. 00:01:11
They have to have. 00:01:13
Council members and the mayor is not included in that quorum count. 00:01:15
Yes, Actually, no, the mayor does vote in in holiday. 00:01:18
They have. 00:01:23
Grandfathered form of government. 00:01:24
So can I ask a question about the? 00:01:26
Quorum for the Building Commission. 00:01:29
If there are four members and an applicant can tell it's not going to go well, but they think it might be more favorable if more 00:01:32
people were there. 00:01:36
Can they say hang on a second, I'm going to bring my application back next week? 00:01:40
They can't do that at any point in the process. 00:01:45
They don't have. They can. They can request that. You don't have to do that. 00:01:48
But I've never. 00:01:51
I've never been in a situation where. 00:01:54
That I would recommend. 00:02:00
Against that, if the applicant wants to withdraw and hold his, hold his or her application. 00:02:01
I would just allow them to do it. And conversely, if there's an issue that feels thorny and we're like, wait a second, let's wait 00:02:07
for everyone to be here, we could continue in. Yeah, The Planning Commission has the ability to. I mean, it would be, it would be 00:02:11
a motion to table. 00:02:15
Right, I move that we table this item until the full Planning Commission can hear this. 00:02:20
Right. And we've done that before here I can. 00:02:24
A couple of. 00:02:27
My head that we've done that. 00:02:28
The other thing that you so. 00:02:33
Anytime we have a public meeting and we had that issue today. 00:02:36
Right. How long? How long? When do you have to have? 00:02:39
The public meeting amendment posted. 00:02:43
Is it a 24 or 48 hours? 24 hours? 00:02:46
24 is after that. 00:02:49
Yep. So if you tried it, you can't. You cannot amend an agenda if there's less than 24 hours between now and the beginning of the 00:02:51
meeting. 00:02:54
So. 00:02:58
There's always an exception, right? 00:03:01
The exception is an emergency. 00:03:03
Typically there aren't Planning Commission emergencies. 00:03:05
That's something I have been involved in a couple of. 00:03:08
Emergency City Council meetings. 00:03:12
Those related to. 00:03:14
Violence that had was occurring in real time. The other one was related to a fire on a mountain. 00:03:17
That was happening in real time, so they convened a City Council meeting, too. 00:03:23
Appropriate some additional funding for. 00:03:27
Water trucks to come in. 00:03:31
So. 00:03:34
Let's see. 00:03:36
The other thing, That's as far as public notice. 00:03:37
When? When? Our city recorder Stephanie does a great job. 00:03:40
Putting these together. 00:03:44
And. 00:03:46
One of the things that's required is it says your agenda has to have. 00:03:47
Reasonable specificity of topics. 00:03:51
So you can't just put on there public hearing code text amendment. 00:03:54
Period. 00:03:59
Essay of what code are you amending? 00:04:00
And you know, it doesn't have to have the full blown. Here's the amendment that has to be available also, but through the packet. 00:04:02
But the agenda has to say. 00:04:05
Public hearing to amend. 00:04:09
This section of city code. 00:04:11
So you have to have a reasonable specificity so that any member of the public can look at the agenda. 00:04:13
It's available on the website and say oh. 00:04:17
OK. I'm interested in that. I'm going to go to that meeting. 00:04:19
Do people have to go somewhere else to see the packet? 00:04:22
Typically it's. 00:04:27
It's on the website right there. The agenda typically has its own link, and then the packet has a separate link so you're not 00:04:28
downloading. 00:04:31
300 pages unless you want to. 00:04:34
So sometimes they can be quite lengthy. 00:04:36
But they're easy to find. They're right next to each other. Yes, good. 00:04:38
They didn't used to be. They've updated the website from what I understand, right? 00:04:40
Because I feel like I've gone looking for the packet before on the public side and it was like not there. 00:04:46
Good question. 00:04:53
But I know they redid the website and let's test it. 00:04:59
Year. 00:05:02
Nice. Yeah, there's the agenda packet right there. 00:05:04
So yes, it has been fixed. 00:05:08
Sweet. Better organized. 00:05:10
That's great. The other thing that you guys have been through 100 times, well, 100 times a few. 00:05:13
Times. 00:05:18
Every year, the Planning Commission, any public body which is the City Council or. 00:05:21
A board of trustees if it's a different form of municipal entity. 00:05:26
Or a Planning Commission has to post its annual meeting schedule. 00:05:30
We did that. We approved it, if you remember, in December. 00:05:34
That's been posted with the Utah Public Notice website. 00:05:38
The other thing is public notices have to be posted in two places, the Utah Public Notice website, which is run by the state. 00:05:40
And the other one is at. 00:05:46
City Hall. 00:05:48
That's where we post those two things. It used to require a notice in the newspaper. 00:05:50
Since we're really newspapers like they once were. 00:05:55
Got delivered every home or most homes? 00:05:58
State doesn't require it anymore. It's kind of. 00:06:01
Unable to comply with that, so we don't require it. 00:06:04
Is it a requirement that they be available on Zoom? 00:06:06
No. 00:06:10
The only requirement is that they be available on Zoom is if you're going to allow. 00:06:12
You guys to attend via Zoom? 00:06:18
So if you're going to allow. 00:06:21
Remote participation, and we have that allowed. 00:06:23
But you have to if you guys are going to be. 00:06:26
Having the meeting electronically. 00:06:28
Then you have to have meaningful. Is the term meaningful? 00:06:31
Ways for the public to participate. 00:06:35
So you have to have availability for them to publicly address during a public hearing. 00:06:37
Be able to submit comments whether. 00:06:43
Written or. 00:06:45
Voice you need to be able to make sure that they are able to meaningfully. 00:06:47
Meaningfully participate. 00:06:51
In the meeting. 00:06:53
So. 00:06:55
And Holiday has adopted that and that's actually the next topic is electronically. 00:06:57
The city has to formally. 00:07:03
Authorize that. 00:07:04
Which they have. 00:07:05
City and its code has. 00:07:06
Electronic meeting. 00:07:09
Policies. 00:07:10
The changes there have been changes in electronic meeting. 00:07:12
Section they used to require. 00:07:16
That. 00:07:18
It was only you had to have. 00:07:20
Somebody had to be here. 00:07:22
Somebody had to be at an anchor location. 00:07:24
And it had to be within the city, right? They don't require that anymore. 00:07:26
But they do require that if you. 00:07:31
Are going to do that? 00:07:34
As I said before, meaningful participation. 00:07:35
They're able to meaningfully monitor, listen. 00:07:38
Anticipate. 00:07:41
If there's public comment section, they have to be able to do that. 00:07:42
One of the challenges that we saw with that during COVID. 00:07:45
Is that there were. 00:07:48
You know some bad actors that would take over meetings? They figured out ways to. 00:07:50
You know, hack the meeting and hijack it and then. 00:07:54
You know, have some obscene material that was shared to the public that was participating in those. 00:07:57
That happened here in Utah on multiple occasions, so. 00:08:04
That's one of the things that is. 00:08:07
Just a word of warning. 00:08:09
But yeah, that's. 00:08:12
Umm. 00:08:14
Let's see. 00:08:17
OK, then let's see minutes and recording required of all meetings so. 00:08:22
As you know, Carrie turns on the recorder. 00:08:26
Record this entire meeting. 00:08:29
And it is broadcast. We do this on YouTube, right? 00:08:31
YouTube. 00:08:34
On the city's website. 00:08:36
So we have a live feed on the city's website. 00:08:40
Some cities use YouTube, some cities use Zoom. 00:08:43
But there's typically recording is required. It doesn't have to be a video recording. 00:08:46
But you have to maintain an audio recording most places. 00:08:50
With. 00:08:54
The ease and availability of cameras. 00:08:54
Are having video with audio with video. 00:08:57
So. 00:09:00
Written minutes are required. Does anybody know what the official record? 00:09:02
Meeting is. 00:09:06
The meeting minutes. The meeting minutes are the official record. The audio recording is not the official record. Neither is the 00:09:10
video recording, but the. 00:09:13
Minutes are. 00:09:17
Minutes are not required to. 00:09:19
Be a transcript of what occurred. 00:09:21
And not word for word. It's meant to be a. 00:09:25
Kind of this is what happened. 00:09:28
You know, minutes could be as simple as. 00:09:30
You know, Mr. Christopherson provided the open and public meetings training and that took from this time to this time. 00:09:33
It could be as straightforward as that. 00:09:40
So which is important considering next meeting if there's something in particular that. 00:09:41
You felt was an impressive point that needed to be. 00:09:46
Called out then you could ask to amend that on the official meeting minutes if it was omitted for some reason, correct? Yep, to 00:09:49
give you a chance to. 00:09:53
Review and then they have to be approved. The only the approved minutes are the official record, right? 00:09:58
Draft minutes. 00:10:03
Have to be posted three days after. 00:10:05
Within 3 days. 00:10:08
The audio recording has to be available within three days after the meeting, the draft minutes as soon as they are prepared. 00:10:10
You know is a reasonable time after they are prepared so you don't have to come up with draft minutes if they don't exist. 00:10:17
But. 00:10:22
Should you try to get them? 00:10:24
Available as soon as. 00:10:25
Soon as you can. 00:10:27
And then once they're approved minutes, they have to be posted within 24 hours. 00:10:28
So no, sorry. 00:10:33
That's the three days. 00:10:35
Three days is the approve minutes. 00:10:37
How long do you have to retain the minutes? 00:10:40
Probably indefinitely. 00:10:44
Permanently. How long do you have to retain the audio recording? 00:10:45
Guessing a couple of years. 00:10:48
Indefinitely, yeah. 00:10:50
Permanently. 00:10:52
It's my great grandkids can watch this. 00:10:53
And the the wording from the state statute on what's in the minutes, the substance of what was shared. 00:10:57
Needs to be. 00:11:02
I'll e-mail the PowerPoint here that I'm so that it can be included in the in the minutes as part of the city record. 00:11:04
Although how are our minutes constructed? Is that AI transcription and then condensed somehow? Or is it a human? Right now I 00:11:10
believe they're all human. Done. 00:11:14
There are. 00:11:19
Schools that are getting better and better at. 00:11:21
AI tools that are getting better and better at preparing minutes. 00:11:23
So some of them. 00:11:27
They're really good at doing a transcription. 00:11:29
They're less good right now. 00:11:31
Less sophisticated to create minutes. 00:11:35
That aren't a transcription, a summary of important stuff that was shared. 00:11:37
But there are some that are actually. 00:11:41
Quite sophisticated at doing it and. 00:11:43
They're becoming. 00:11:46
More and more available and. 00:11:47
Cheaper. 00:11:48
Let's see. 00:11:51
Umm, now. 00:11:53
I use this term and not everybody will remember this but. 00:11:55
I don't remember it from having when it happened. I don't think I was born quite yet, but. 00:11:58
The Watergate tapes, What was wrong with those? 00:12:04
The Watergate. 00:12:07
Tapes the missing 18 minutes. Missing 18 minutes so. 00:12:08
You have to have a complete unedited. 00:12:13
Record. 00:12:15
On the audio recording. 00:12:17
So the Watergate tapes would not be in compliant if they had been. 00:12:19
There's missing 18 minutes. 00:12:24
So again, those have to be. 00:12:25
Available, as I said, within 3 days of the meeting. 00:12:27
Available to the public. 00:12:30
Typically on the website. 00:12:32
And they are required to be. 00:12:33
Permanently retained as well. 00:12:35
Which we said I got ahead of myself. 00:12:37
Umm, again? 00:12:40
OK. So hang on a minute. Yeah. So you have to have a quorum for a proposed meeting, for a closed meeting. 00:12:42
Plus 2/3 of the vote. 00:12:47
Right. So we did get that clear. 00:12:49
And it has to be for one of the purposes in. 00:12:53
Utah Code Title 52. 00:12:56
Chapter 4. Section 205. 00:12:58
So again, we talked about. 00:13:01
Strategy session to discuss litigation. 00:13:02
Strategy session to discuss the acquisition of real property. 00:13:05
Acquisition or sale of real property. 00:13:09
Mental, Mental. Physical. 00:13:12
Were professional competency. 00:13:15
Of an individual. 00:13:18
Those ones, there's a little nuance to that. You don't maintain a recording of that one. 00:13:19
Can you guys guess why? 00:13:23
Well, you don't maintain a recording of. 00:13:26
A closed meeting about someone's mental competency. 00:13:28
Yeah, that's the only one you don't maintain a recording of all the other ones you do. 00:13:31
Really. Yeah. 00:13:36
Why do you think that is? 00:13:37
Say that again, the court can disagree that. 00:13:40
True, but that's not why. So it's an exception in the statute of why the statute? 00:13:46
The reason they do that is because they want people to be able to be open. 00:13:53
And be able to share and. 00:13:57
Have a meaningful discussion without fear of retribution. 00:14:00
And we don't want to violate HIPAA either. 00:14:03
So. 00:14:06
Is that the mental or physical competency of. 00:14:08
An applicant. 00:14:13
No. 00:14:16
It would typically, so you guys would. I can't imagine a scenario. 00:14:17
That that would come before the Planning Commission. It does come before the City Council. 00:14:22
Right, because they're the ultimate. 00:14:26
Authority. The legislative body of the city. So you would. 00:14:28
If you want to terminate. 00:14:31
You know somebody's employment. 00:14:32
Because of character or mental or physical competency of an individual. Their ability to do a job. 00:14:35
You would hold a closed session to have that discussion, so. 00:14:41
Private. You wouldn't want those deliberations to be public. 00:14:44
So those are kind of those situations and I have been involved in a number of those over the years. 00:14:47
So if we all deem that the applicant is. 00:14:53
Appearing to be mentally incompetent, we would just roll forward and try and be nice. 00:14:56
You'd probably ask staff to say, hey, you know, are you OK? You know, like, say, let's take a recess. I would probably break the 00:15:01
meeting, pause the meeting for a minute, take a recess, everybody get a drink. 00:15:06
Use restroom, whatever. 00:15:12
And then have somebody from staff probably approaching. 00:15:14
Say hey, everything alright? 00:15:17
So I wouldn't just. 00:15:19
Well. 00:15:21
This is entertaining. Let's keep going. 00:15:22
Umm, let's see deployment of security measures. 00:15:26
That's one that you would do, but that again, that wouldn't be. 00:15:31
There wouldn't be anything that we would do in Planning Commission but City Council. 00:15:35
Well, we did one for the Planning Commission two years ago or a year and a half ago. Oh, that's true, actually, yeah. 00:15:39
To notify of a kind of like emergency. 00:15:45
Preparation, right? 00:15:47
There you go. So yeah, we could do that. 00:15:49
Let's see one of the So the other thing, and this goes for more for Council, but. 00:15:53
UMM is specifically stated that you cannot. 00:15:58
Conduct interviews to appoint a member of to the body in. 00:16:02
In a closed session. 00:16:07
So this is typically for vacancy on the City Council. 00:16:09
If they want to, if there's a vacancy on the City Council, they have to produce notice. 00:16:11
And notify anybody that wants to that they there's a vacancy and if you want to apply to this. 00:16:15
You know it's open and here's the requirements. 00:16:20
To be a registered voter in living in the area for X amount of time. 00:16:23
I think it's. 00:16:28
There's a couple of different. 00:16:31
I can't remember if it's a year, if it's six months living in the. 00:16:33
In the district or the city where you're trying to be appointed? 00:16:36
And then? 00:16:39
You have to be registered voter. I know that's required. 00:16:41
Umm, but you cannot conduct those interviews in a closed session. They have to be conducted in an open meeting that the public can 00:16:44
attend. 00:16:47
And then there has to be a public vote on it. 00:16:51
It's really kind of disconcerting for the applicants. 00:16:53
But. 00:16:56
They knew that before they submitted their application. 00:16:57
It's not how. 00:17:00
Councilman Brewer got on the. 00:17:01
Council when that seat was vacated. 00:17:03
Right, like 3-4 years ago. Yeah, I believe so. 00:17:07
Let's see emergency meeting. The funny thing is that emergency is not defined in the statute. 00:17:14
We talked a little bit about those, but you have to have. 00:17:19
A majority of the members of the body public body have to approve the meeting. 00:17:23
So. 00:17:28
Three members of the Planning Commission can't just have a meeting. 00:17:29
In an emergency situation because. 00:17:31
They want to. They still have to have 4. You still have to have a quorum. 00:17:33
Umm, and that you have to attempt to notify all members so that you don't. 00:17:37
Purposely leave somebody out. 00:17:44
And you have to give us best notice as is practical. 00:17:47
Practicable for the situation. 00:17:50
So if there's a fire burning on the mountain and you need to. 00:17:53
Be able to have a meeting. 00:17:56
To address you, know your evacuation plans if necessary and discuss those in a meeting. 00:17:57
Umm, you. 00:18:02
Try to notify everyone if you can. 00:18:04
And you make the. 00:18:07
You make the. 00:18:08
The best possible effort to do it, but. 00:18:09
If somebody is out of town. 00:18:12
They're not going to be there. 00:18:14
So anyway. 00:18:15
But we can zoom it. 00:18:17
You could you have the ability as long as we make the public able to meaningfully participate. 00:18:20
The other thing this is the other thing that the updates to this. 00:18:27
So. 00:18:30
There was always some discussion. 00:18:32
If the. 00:18:34
If the City Council is. 00:18:36
As the blue moon. 00:18:38
Festival. 00:18:40
And. 00:18:42
Majority of the City Council is going to be there. Do you have to put out a public notice that the City Council is going to be at 00:18:43
the Blue Moon Festival? 00:18:46
I was going to ask that question if they're at the same event together or if they actually meet together. 00:18:50
So that goes back to the definition of a meeting, right? 00:18:57
So it has to be a meeting that's called by the body. 00:19:01
Right for the purpose of conducting public business, right. 00:19:05
So. 00:19:08
They used to have this big question. Well, what about a social gathering? We don't want them talking about it. You're still not 00:19:10
supposed to talk about public business. 00:19:13
At a meeting. 00:19:16
Or at excuse me. 00:19:17
At a meeting you are supposed to at a social gathering. 00:19:19
Or at a Blue Moon festival. 00:19:21
But the question has come up over and over again. Well, should you put out a public notice for that? 00:19:23
You don't need to put out a public notice for that, because you're not there intentionally talking about it now. 00:19:28
Should a quorum of you get together and sit together at a public at a blue moon festival and sit next to each other? 00:19:33
On the lawn. 00:19:40
Probably not. 00:19:41
It just gives a bad look. 00:19:43
Not so much for the Planning Commission, but again for the City Council if they were sitting together. 00:19:46
But the other thing is I had. 00:19:50
Had a City Council that. 00:19:52
One of the City Council members, who was new, wanted to get to know. 00:19:54
The council members to have you know. 00:19:57
Hopefully create some unity and some. 00:19:59
You know, build. 00:20:02
You know rapport with his fellow council members so he invited them all to a BBQ. 00:20:03
And the city recorder insisted on putting out a public notice. 00:20:07
But it's like, wait, he doesn't want. 00:20:11
Everybody knows where he lives, right? Because you have to put your address up when you're running for public office. But it's 00:20:13
like. 00:20:15
Why do we have to? 00:20:19
You know, so the Legislature has. 00:20:20
Thought that was kind of silly. 00:20:22
So you don't have to put out a notice for a social gathering. So. 00:20:24
Anyway. 00:20:28
There is a. The other question that always comes up on these is. 00:20:29
What about sending a text message? 00:20:35
During the meeting. 00:20:38
To another person like if I text her. 00:20:42
I would imagine that's not legal because it's not part of the public record if it's. 00:20:47
Like if I say, hey, I like your it's not, it's not illegal, right? 00:20:51
But if you send a message, but what? But you're not conducting your deliberations openly. So it could potentially be a violation 00:20:55
of the Open and Public Meetings Act because you're having conversations regarding the public's business. 00:21:00
Not in a closed session. 00:21:06
So what if somebody from. 00:21:08
Let's say. 00:21:11
That Commissioner, you know that, Chair Roaches. 00:21:12
Relative. 00:21:19
Was bringing an application before the city or before the Planning Commission? 00:21:20
And. 00:21:24
That relative starts texting Commissioner Roche during the. 00:21:26
During the meeting. 00:21:29
Do I have to recuse myself anyway, right? 00:21:31
Should, yes. 00:21:34
You. 00:21:35
You don't have to. You have to notify in writing of your conflict of interest. 00:21:37
Right, if you don't recruit yourself, you have to write about your conflict of interest. 00:21:41
But yes, they're texting me about what is happening in the public hearing. Then that would violate that because they have to come 00:21:47
to the podium and make it part of the public record, right? 00:21:51
So you didn't have control over that? 00:21:56
Right. 00:21:59
So my advice to you is. 00:22:00
Don't respond to it. 00:22:02
If they're sending you text messages. 00:22:05
Don't respond to it. 00:22:07
Right. I mean, talk to him after the meeting. 00:22:08
The easiest thing is. 00:22:11
Don't create a written record. 00:22:14
A phone call is not a written record. 00:22:16
Right. So you can't take a phone call in that situation. Don't do that anyway, don't take. 00:22:18
Identify the conflict of interest. 00:22:24
But if there's a question. 00:22:25
If you've got a question, a phone call is so much easier. 00:22:27
To avoid the creation of the record. 00:22:30
And especially. 00:22:32
When we don't have, when the city is not paying for your phones. 00:22:33
This is a personal cell phone. 00:22:36
The worst I've had to do this. 00:22:38
Got a grandma request? 00:22:40
From individuals, Council members. 00:22:42
They were texting or planning commissioners texting back and forth. 00:22:44
To people in the audience. 00:22:47
And. 00:22:51
Then the vote went. 00:22:52
Bad for the applicant. 00:22:53
And the applicant grandma requested all the text messages that were received. 00:22:56
Meeting. Those are all. 00:22:59
Records under grandma. 00:23:02
It's also embarrassing. 00:23:05
Can be very embarrassing. 00:23:07
So just don't do it if there's an issue that. 00:23:09
We're going to be discussing in a meeting. 00:23:13
And I'll and this has happened, I'll send. 00:23:15
Dennis, a text saying. 00:23:18
Sure. 00:23:20
Phone conversation. 00:23:22
If there's only two of you on the line or only three of you on the line. 00:23:24
Totally appropriate and totally fine. 00:23:27
It's when you get 4. 00:23:30
On the line and you're discussing public business. 00:23:31
That's a problem. 00:23:33
And we can't make any decisions in those conversations. 00:23:35
Well, I mean, candidly, you could say this is how I'm planning on voting on this. What do you think? 00:23:38
Well, sometimes it's just a matter of. 00:23:44
Help me understand. Sure. 00:23:46
Provide some. 00:23:49
That's OK. 00:23:52
It is, yeah. That is, that is totally OK. That's I mean. 00:23:53
You want to be. 00:23:56
Before you make, you want to be informed before you make the decision. 00:23:58
Right, if it happens during the meeting. 00:24:01
Than it that's a record, Yeah. So if yeah, you shouldn't have communications about the meeting during the meeting. 00:24:03
That the public is not able to. 00:24:10
Hear or participate in. 00:24:12
So I could say nice haircut and a text message that's fine. But if I say hey. 00:24:15
Get a load of this guy. That's a problem, right? Yeah. You don't want that. You don't want to do that. 00:24:19
Here's here's the other thing. So. 00:24:24
Here's what happened in this particular one. 00:24:26
There's a YouTube recording. 00:24:28
Posted permanently available. 00:24:29
On the city's channel, right. 00:24:31
The applicant that where this was held wasn't even there at the meeting. 00:24:35
But he watched the video. 00:24:40
She's one of the. 00:24:42
One of the elected officials. 00:24:45
Tapping out during the meeting. 00:24:47
Whoever that's to. 00:24:50
It's a record because it occurred during the meeting. 00:24:52
So don't create a record during the meeting that you're not prepared to turn over. 00:24:55
So. 00:25:02
Anyway. 00:25:03
To keep my inappropriate text to before and after. 00:25:05
All right, got it. 00:25:12
So these are some of the things. 00:25:13
They think are interesting. 00:25:18
Kind of principles in public hearings. 00:25:19
So residents of the city have a right to be heard during the public hearing. 00:25:22
Members of the public body are not required to respond to questions or comments. 00:25:26
At the podium that are brought to you by the podium. 00:25:31
Umm, public hearings should typically be opened by motion. 00:25:34
And a vote. 00:25:39
We could. 00:25:40
That's something that. 00:25:42
That's something we can do. 00:25:45
Here to remedy SO. 00:25:46
Anybody have a motion to open the public hearing? 00:25:48
Not everybody does that. 00:25:52
But. 00:25:54
That's perfect practice. 00:25:56
To open a public meeting. To motion to vote, to open the meeting hearing for this. To hear comment on this issue for item number 00:25:59
three on the agenda. 00:26:02
It would have wish people vote no. They could. 00:26:07
Right. Like why would you have a vote if you're? 00:26:11
Obligated to have a public hearing? You have to do it. 00:26:13
Umm, so we've typically opened them and there hasn't been any opposition. I mean, everybody has been through this process before. 00:26:16
That doesn't make the ones we've done defective. 00:26:23
But to. 00:26:26
Perfect. Our practice. 00:26:29
For whatever reason, if someone felt like they didn't want a public hearing opened at the time. 00:26:32
It was scheduled and supposed to happen. Could there be an argument made and a motion to call for a vote before opening it? 00:26:38
An argument. Let's say that again, like, could someone make an argument to not open the vote? Let's get. The applicant wasn't 00:26:47
there and said, hey, the applicant called. 00:26:52
And so let's let's have a motion to table this until next meeting. 00:26:57
You could do that, but if you're just like, oh, I see a bunch of people I don't like here and that's going to be bad for me today. 00:27:01
So like, I want a motion to not have the meeting. We could know. Yeah, you wouldn't. That would be the planning commission's, not 00:27:04
the applicant. 00:27:08
Right, if it's already been publicly noticed. 00:27:13
That ship sailed OK. 00:27:16
All right, that goes back to the first one. Residents of the city have a right to be heard, right? Right. 00:27:17
So. 00:27:21
The other thing, on land use applications, what happens typically after the public hearing? What do you usually do? 00:27:23
With the applicant. 00:27:29
Well, we invite the applicant to come up and address the comments made by the public and they have, that's a statutory right that 00:27:31
they have to address any public comments that were made during the. 00:27:36
Umm, they can make. They can bring additional information to respond to it, and they can even make legal arguments if they want. 00:27:41
Or any. 00:27:44
Doesn't have to be a legal argument, they could make that. 00:27:48
Umm, the. 00:27:50
The public comment and we've already announced this in it when we have a public hearing. 00:27:55
Does not have to be unending, right? 00:27:59
There's no right of. 00:28:01
We don't have the public well, we're concerned about the traffic. We don't need to hear. 00:28:03
75 people come up and say, Yep, I'm also concerned about the traffic, right? That's why we say. 00:28:07
We understand, we get it. Traffic's been said. 00:28:13
You know we don't need that again. 00:28:16
So if you've got something different, let's bring it up, but we don't need this here, 75 people said. I'm also concerned with the 00:28:18
traffic. 00:28:20
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