Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge? Click Here
No Bookmarks Exist.
Holiday Planning Commission. | 00:00:00 | |
I have done a couple of closed sessions for planning commissions. | 00:00:01 | |
And those were typically related to threats of legal action. | 00:00:05 | |
By applicants. | 00:00:09 | |
And then going over. | 00:00:11 | |
All the time going over. | 00:00:13 | |
Here's the issue. | 00:00:16 | |
I'm not telling you how to vote, but I'm telling you what you should consider when you make your vote. | 00:00:18 | |
Those kind of things. | 00:00:22 | |
So you get a substantial evidence kind of situation and the other, the other reasons are if we're discussing. | 00:00:24 | |
Like some sensitive property transaction or someone's character which I don't know if it's. So I have done that with the Planning | 00:00:30 | |
Commission before I. | 00:00:34 | |
Where you're talking about the professional character or mental competency of an individual. | 00:00:38 | |
Or if a crimes been committed. | 00:00:44 | |
Typically if a crime has been committed by a planning commissioner. | 00:00:46 | |
The city will typically deal with that outside. The Planning Commission wouldn't need to deal with that. The City Council might | 00:00:48 | |
need to deal with it. | 00:00:51 | |
But the Planning Commission. | 00:00:55 | |
Wouldn't deal with that directly. | 00:00:56 | |
Just interested in Yeah, we'll, we'll get to the, we'll get to those. | 00:00:59 | |
But anyway and so that. | 00:01:04 | |
The same numbers apply. | 00:01:06 | |
So Holiday has a six member council. | 00:01:11 | |
They have to have. | 00:01:13 | |
Council members and the mayor is not included in that quorum count. | 00:01:15 | |
Yes, Actually, no, the mayor does vote in in holiday. | 00:01:18 | |
They have. | 00:01:23 | |
Grandfathered form of government. | 00:01:24 | |
So can I ask a question about the? | 00:01:26 | |
Quorum for the Building Commission. | 00:01:29 | |
If there are four members and an applicant can tell it's not going to go well, but they think it might be more favorable if more | 00:01:32 | |
people were there. | 00:01:36 | |
Can they say hang on a second, I'm going to bring my application back next week? | 00:01:40 | |
They can't do that at any point in the process. | 00:01:45 | |
They don't have. They can. They can request that. You don't have to do that. | 00:01:48 | |
But I've never. | 00:01:51 | |
I've never been in a situation where. | 00:01:54 | |
That I would recommend. | 00:02:00 | |
Against that, if the applicant wants to withdraw and hold his, hold his or her application. | 00:02:01 | |
I would just allow them to do it. And conversely, if there's an issue that feels thorny and we're like, wait a second, let's wait | 00:02:07 | |
for everyone to be here, we could continue in. Yeah, The Planning Commission has the ability to. I mean, it would be, it would be | 00:02:11 | |
a motion to table. | 00:02:15 | |
Right, I move that we table this item until the full Planning Commission can hear this. | 00:02:20 | |
Right. And we've done that before here I can. | 00:02:24 | |
A couple of. | 00:02:27 | |
My head that we've done that. | 00:02:28 | |
The other thing that you so. | 00:02:33 | |
Anytime we have a public meeting and we had that issue today. | 00:02:36 | |
Right. How long? How long? When do you have to have? | 00:02:39 | |
The public meeting amendment posted. | 00:02:43 | |
Is it a 24 or 48 hours? 24 hours? | 00:02:46 | |
24 is after that. | 00:02:49 | |
Yep. So if you tried it, you can't. You cannot amend an agenda if there's less than 24 hours between now and the beginning of the | 00:02:51 | |
meeting. | 00:02:54 | |
So. | 00:02:58 | |
There's always an exception, right? | 00:03:01 | |
The exception is an emergency. | 00:03:03 | |
Typically there aren't Planning Commission emergencies. | 00:03:05 | |
That's something I have been involved in a couple of. | 00:03:08 | |
Emergency City Council meetings. | 00:03:12 | |
Those related to. | 00:03:14 | |
Violence that had was occurring in real time. The other one was related to a fire on a mountain. | 00:03:17 | |
That was happening in real time, so they convened a City Council meeting, too. | 00:03:23 | |
Appropriate some additional funding for. | 00:03:27 | |
Water trucks to come in. | 00:03:31 | |
So. | 00:03:34 | |
Let's see. | 00:03:36 | |
The other thing, That's as far as public notice. | 00:03:37 | |
When? When? Our city recorder Stephanie does a great job. | 00:03:40 | |
Putting these together. | 00:03:44 | |
And. | 00:03:46 | |
One of the things that's required is it says your agenda has to have. | 00:03:47 | |
Reasonable specificity of topics. | 00:03:51 | |
So you can't just put on there public hearing code text amendment. | 00:03:54 | |
Period. | 00:03:59 | |
Essay of what code are you amending? | 00:04:00 | |
And you know, it doesn't have to have the full blown. Here's the amendment that has to be available also, but through the packet. | 00:04:02 | |
But the agenda has to say. | 00:04:05 | |
Public hearing to amend. | 00:04:09 | |
This section of city code. | 00:04:11 | |
So you have to have a reasonable specificity so that any member of the public can look at the agenda. | 00:04:13 | |
It's available on the website and say oh. | 00:04:17 | |
OK. I'm interested in that. I'm going to go to that meeting. | 00:04:19 | |
Do people have to go somewhere else to see the packet? | 00:04:22 | |
Typically it's. | 00:04:27 | |
It's on the website right there. The agenda typically has its own link, and then the packet has a separate link so you're not | 00:04:28 | |
downloading. | 00:04:31 | |
300 pages unless you want to. | 00:04:34 | |
So sometimes they can be quite lengthy. | 00:04:36 | |
But they're easy to find. They're right next to each other. Yes, good. | 00:04:38 | |
They didn't used to be. They've updated the website from what I understand, right? | 00:04:40 | |
Because I feel like I've gone looking for the packet before on the public side and it was like not there. | 00:04:46 | |
Good question. | 00:04:53 | |
But I know they redid the website and let's test it. | 00:04:59 | |
Year. | 00:05:02 | |
Nice. Yeah, there's the agenda packet right there. | 00:05:04 | |
So yes, it has been fixed. | 00:05:08 | |
Sweet. Better organized. | 00:05:10 | |
That's great. The other thing that you guys have been through 100 times, well, 100 times a few. | 00:05:13 | |
Times. | 00:05:18 | |
Every year, the Planning Commission, any public body which is the City Council or. | 00:05:21 | |
A board of trustees if it's a different form of municipal entity. | 00:05:26 | |
Or a Planning Commission has to post its annual meeting schedule. | 00:05:30 | |
We did that. We approved it, if you remember, in December. | 00:05:34 | |
That's been posted with the Utah Public Notice website. | 00:05:38 | |
The other thing is public notices have to be posted in two places, the Utah Public Notice website, which is run by the state. | 00:05:40 | |
And the other one is at. | 00:05:46 | |
City Hall. | 00:05:48 | |
That's where we post those two things. It used to require a notice in the newspaper. | 00:05:50 | |
Since we're really newspapers like they once were. | 00:05:55 | |
Got delivered every home or most homes? | 00:05:58 | |
State doesn't require it anymore. It's kind of. | 00:06:01 | |
Unable to comply with that, so we don't require it. | 00:06:04 | |
Is it a requirement that they be available on Zoom? | 00:06:06 | |
No. | 00:06:10 | |
The only requirement is that they be available on Zoom is if you're going to allow. | 00:06:12 | |
You guys to attend via Zoom? | 00:06:18 | |
So if you're going to allow. | 00:06:21 | |
Remote participation, and we have that allowed. | 00:06:23 | |
But you have to if you guys are going to be. | 00:06:26 | |
Having the meeting electronically. | 00:06:28 | |
Then you have to have meaningful. Is the term meaningful? | 00:06:31 | |
Ways for the public to participate. | 00:06:35 | |
So you have to have availability for them to publicly address during a public hearing. | 00:06:37 | |
Be able to submit comments whether. | 00:06:43 | |
Written or. | 00:06:45 | |
Voice you need to be able to make sure that they are able to meaningfully. | 00:06:47 | |
Meaningfully participate. | 00:06:51 | |
In the meeting. | 00:06:53 | |
So. | 00:06:55 | |
And Holiday has adopted that and that's actually the next topic is electronically. | 00:06:57 | |
The city has to formally. | 00:07:03 | |
Authorize that. | 00:07:04 | |
Which they have. | 00:07:05 | |
City and its code has. | 00:07:06 | |
Electronic meeting. | 00:07:09 | |
Policies. | 00:07:10 | |
The changes there have been changes in electronic meeting. | 00:07:12 | |
Section they used to require. | 00:07:16 | |
That. | 00:07:18 | |
It was only you had to have. | 00:07:20 | |
Somebody had to be here. | 00:07:22 | |
Somebody had to be at an anchor location. | 00:07:24 | |
And it had to be within the city, right? They don't require that anymore. | 00:07:26 | |
But they do require that if you. | 00:07:31 | |
Are going to do that? | 00:07:34 | |
As I said before, meaningful participation. | 00:07:35 | |
They're able to meaningfully monitor, listen. | 00:07:38 | |
Anticipate. | 00:07:41 | |
If there's public comment section, they have to be able to do that. | 00:07:42 | |
One of the challenges that we saw with that during COVID. | 00:07:45 | |
Is that there were. | 00:07:48 | |
You know some bad actors that would take over meetings? They figured out ways to. | 00:07:50 | |
You know, hack the meeting and hijack it and then. | 00:07:54 | |
You know, have some obscene material that was shared to the public that was participating in those. | 00:07:57 | |
That happened here in Utah on multiple occasions, so. | 00:08:04 | |
That's one of the things that is. | 00:08:07 | |
Just a word of warning. | 00:08:09 | |
But yeah, that's. | 00:08:12 | |
Umm. | 00:08:14 | |
Let's see. | 00:08:17 | |
OK, then let's see minutes and recording required of all meetings so. | 00:08:22 | |
As you know, Carrie turns on the recorder. | 00:08:26 | |
Record this entire meeting. | 00:08:29 | |
And it is broadcast. We do this on YouTube, right? | 00:08:31 | |
YouTube. | 00:08:34 | |
On the city's website. | 00:08:36 | |
So we have a live feed on the city's website. | 00:08:40 | |
Some cities use YouTube, some cities use Zoom. | 00:08:43 | |
But there's typically recording is required. It doesn't have to be a video recording. | 00:08:46 | |
But you have to maintain an audio recording most places. | 00:08:50 | |
With. | 00:08:54 | |
The ease and availability of cameras. | 00:08:54 | |
Are having video with audio with video. | 00:08:57 | |
So. | 00:09:00 | |
Written minutes are required. Does anybody know what the official record? | 00:09:02 | |
Meeting is. | 00:09:06 | |
The meeting minutes. The meeting minutes are the official record. The audio recording is not the official record. Neither is the | 00:09:10 | |
video recording, but the. | 00:09:13 | |
Minutes are. | 00:09:17 | |
Minutes are not required to. | 00:09:19 | |
Be a transcript of what occurred. | 00:09:21 | |
And not word for word. It's meant to be a. | 00:09:25 | |
Kind of this is what happened. | 00:09:28 | |
You know, minutes could be as simple as. | 00:09:30 | |
You know, Mr. Christopherson provided the open and public meetings training and that took from this time to this time. | 00:09:33 | |
It could be as straightforward as that. | 00:09:40 | |
So which is important considering next meeting if there's something in particular that. | 00:09:41 | |
You felt was an impressive point that needed to be. | 00:09:46 | |
Called out then you could ask to amend that on the official meeting minutes if it was omitted for some reason, correct? Yep, to | 00:09:49 | |
give you a chance to. | 00:09:53 | |
Review and then they have to be approved. The only the approved minutes are the official record, right? | 00:09:58 | |
Draft minutes. | 00:10:03 | |
Have to be posted three days after. | 00:10:05 | |
Within 3 days. | 00:10:08 | |
The audio recording has to be available within three days after the meeting, the draft minutes as soon as they are prepared. | 00:10:10 | |
You know is a reasonable time after they are prepared so you don't have to come up with draft minutes if they don't exist. | 00:10:17 | |
But. | 00:10:22 | |
Should you try to get them? | 00:10:24 | |
Available as soon as. | 00:10:25 | |
Soon as you can. | 00:10:27 | |
And then once they're approved minutes, they have to be posted within 24 hours. | 00:10:28 | |
So no, sorry. | 00:10:33 | |
That's the three days. | 00:10:35 | |
Three days is the approve minutes. | 00:10:37 | |
How long do you have to retain the minutes? | 00:10:40 | |
Probably indefinitely. | 00:10:44 | |
Permanently. How long do you have to retain the audio recording? | 00:10:45 | |
Guessing a couple of years. | 00:10:48 | |
Indefinitely, yeah. | 00:10:50 | |
Permanently. | 00:10:52 | |
It's my great grandkids can watch this. | 00:10:53 | |
And the the wording from the state statute on what's in the minutes, the substance of what was shared. | 00:10:57 | |
Needs to be. | 00:11:02 | |
I'll e-mail the PowerPoint here that I'm so that it can be included in the in the minutes as part of the city record. | 00:11:04 | |
Although how are our minutes constructed? Is that AI transcription and then condensed somehow? Or is it a human? Right now I | 00:11:10 | |
believe they're all human. Done. | 00:11:14 | |
There are. | 00:11:19 | |
Schools that are getting better and better at. | 00:11:21 | |
AI tools that are getting better and better at preparing minutes. | 00:11:23 | |
So some of them. | 00:11:27 | |
They're really good at doing a transcription. | 00:11:29 | |
They're less good right now. | 00:11:31 | |
Less sophisticated to create minutes. | 00:11:35 | |
That aren't a transcription, a summary of important stuff that was shared. | 00:11:37 | |
But there are some that are actually. | 00:11:41 | |
Quite sophisticated at doing it and. | 00:11:43 | |
They're becoming. | 00:11:46 | |
More and more available and. | 00:11:47 | |
Cheaper. | 00:11:48 | |
Let's see. | 00:11:51 | |
Umm, now. | 00:11:53 | |
I use this term and not everybody will remember this but. | 00:11:55 | |
I don't remember it from having when it happened. I don't think I was born quite yet, but. | 00:11:58 | |
The Watergate tapes, What was wrong with those? | 00:12:04 | |
The Watergate. | 00:12:07 | |
Tapes the missing 18 minutes. Missing 18 minutes so. | 00:12:08 | |
You have to have a complete unedited. | 00:12:13 | |
Record. | 00:12:15 | |
On the audio recording. | 00:12:17 | |
So the Watergate tapes would not be in compliant if they had been. | 00:12:19 | |
There's missing 18 minutes. | 00:12:24 | |
So again, those have to be. | 00:12:25 | |
Available, as I said, within 3 days of the meeting. | 00:12:27 | |
Available to the public. | 00:12:30 | |
Typically on the website. | 00:12:32 | |
And they are required to be. | 00:12:33 | |
Permanently retained as well. | 00:12:35 | |
Which we said I got ahead of myself. | 00:12:37 | |
Umm, again? | 00:12:40 | |
OK. So hang on a minute. Yeah. So you have to have a quorum for a proposed meeting, for a closed meeting. | 00:12:42 | |
Plus 2/3 of the vote. | 00:12:47 | |
Right. So we did get that clear. | 00:12:49 | |
And it has to be for one of the purposes in. | 00:12:53 | |
Utah Code Title 52. | 00:12:56 | |
Chapter 4. Section 205. | 00:12:58 | |
So again, we talked about. | 00:13:01 | |
Strategy session to discuss litigation. | 00:13:02 | |
Strategy session to discuss the acquisition of real property. | 00:13:05 | |
Acquisition or sale of real property. | 00:13:09 | |
Mental, Mental. Physical. | 00:13:12 | |
Were professional competency. | 00:13:15 | |
Of an individual. | 00:13:18 | |
Those ones, there's a little nuance to that. You don't maintain a recording of that one. | 00:13:19 | |
Can you guys guess why? | 00:13:23 | |
Well, you don't maintain a recording of. | 00:13:26 | |
A closed meeting about someone's mental competency. | 00:13:28 | |
Yeah, that's the only one you don't maintain a recording of all the other ones you do. | 00:13:31 | |
Really. Yeah. | 00:13:36 | |
Why do you think that is? | 00:13:37 | |
Say that again, the court can disagree that. | 00:13:40 | |
True, but that's not why. So it's an exception in the statute of why the statute? | 00:13:46 | |
The reason they do that is because they want people to be able to be open. | 00:13:53 | |
And be able to share and. | 00:13:57 | |
Have a meaningful discussion without fear of retribution. | 00:14:00 | |
And we don't want to violate HIPAA either. | 00:14:03 | |
So. | 00:14:06 | |
Is that the mental or physical competency of. | 00:14:08 | |
An applicant. | 00:14:13 | |
No. | 00:14:16 | |
It would typically, so you guys would. I can't imagine a scenario. | 00:14:17 | |
That that would come before the Planning Commission. It does come before the City Council. | 00:14:22 | |
Right, because they're the ultimate. | 00:14:26 | |
Authority. The legislative body of the city. So you would. | 00:14:28 | |
If you want to terminate. | 00:14:31 | |
You know somebody's employment. | 00:14:32 | |
Because of character or mental or physical competency of an individual. Their ability to do a job. | 00:14:35 | |
You would hold a closed session to have that discussion, so. | 00:14:41 | |
Private. You wouldn't want those deliberations to be public. | 00:14:44 | |
So those are kind of those situations and I have been involved in a number of those over the years. | 00:14:47 | |
So if we all deem that the applicant is. | 00:14:53 | |
Appearing to be mentally incompetent, we would just roll forward and try and be nice. | 00:14:56 | |
You'd probably ask staff to say, hey, you know, are you OK? You know, like, say, let's take a recess. I would probably break the | 00:15:01 | |
meeting, pause the meeting for a minute, take a recess, everybody get a drink. | 00:15:06 | |
Use restroom, whatever. | 00:15:12 | |
And then have somebody from staff probably approaching. | 00:15:14 | |
Say hey, everything alright? | 00:15:17 | |
So I wouldn't just. | 00:15:19 | |
Well. | 00:15:21 | |
This is entertaining. Let's keep going. | 00:15:22 | |
Umm, let's see deployment of security measures. | 00:15:26 | |
That's one that you would do, but that again, that wouldn't be. | 00:15:31 | |
There wouldn't be anything that we would do in Planning Commission but City Council. | 00:15:35 | |
Well, we did one for the Planning Commission two years ago or a year and a half ago. Oh, that's true, actually, yeah. | 00:15:39 | |
To notify of a kind of like emergency. | 00:15:45 | |
Preparation, right? | 00:15:47 | |
There you go. So yeah, we could do that. | 00:15:49 | |
Let's see one of the So the other thing, and this goes for more for Council, but. | 00:15:53 | |
UMM is specifically stated that you cannot. | 00:15:58 | |
Conduct interviews to appoint a member of to the body in. | 00:16:02 | |
In a closed session. | 00:16:07 | |
So this is typically for vacancy on the City Council. | 00:16:09 | |
If they want to, if there's a vacancy on the City Council, they have to produce notice. | 00:16:11 | |
And notify anybody that wants to that they there's a vacancy and if you want to apply to this. | 00:16:15 | |
You know it's open and here's the requirements. | 00:16:20 | |
To be a registered voter in living in the area for X amount of time. | 00:16:23 | |
I think it's. | 00:16:28 | |
There's a couple of different. | 00:16:31 | |
I can't remember if it's a year, if it's six months living in the. | 00:16:33 | |
In the district or the city where you're trying to be appointed? | 00:16:36 | |
And then? | 00:16:39 | |
You have to be registered voter. I know that's required. | 00:16:41 | |
Umm, but you cannot conduct those interviews in a closed session. They have to be conducted in an open meeting that the public can | 00:16:44 | |
attend. | 00:16:47 | |
And then there has to be a public vote on it. | 00:16:51 | |
It's really kind of disconcerting for the applicants. | 00:16:53 | |
But. | 00:16:56 | |
They knew that before they submitted their application. | 00:16:57 | |
It's not how. | 00:17:00 | |
Councilman Brewer got on the. | 00:17:01 | |
Council when that seat was vacated. | 00:17:03 | |
Right, like 3-4 years ago. Yeah, I believe so. | 00:17:07 | |
Let's see emergency meeting. The funny thing is that emergency is not defined in the statute. | 00:17:14 | |
We talked a little bit about those, but you have to have. | 00:17:19 | |
A majority of the members of the body public body have to approve the meeting. | 00:17:23 | |
So. | 00:17:28 | |
Three members of the Planning Commission can't just have a meeting. | 00:17:29 | |
In an emergency situation because. | 00:17:31 | |
They want to. They still have to have 4. You still have to have a quorum. | 00:17:33 | |
Umm, and that you have to attempt to notify all members so that you don't. | 00:17:37 | |
Purposely leave somebody out. | 00:17:44 | |
And you have to give us best notice as is practical. | 00:17:47 | |
Practicable for the situation. | 00:17:50 | |
So if there's a fire burning on the mountain and you need to. | 00:17:53 | |
Be able to have a meeting. | 00:17:56 | |
To address you, know your evacuation plans if necessary and discuss those in a meeting. | 00:17:57 | |
Umm, you. | 00:18:02 | |
Try to notify everyone if you can. | 00:18:04 | |
And you make the. | 00:18:07 | |
You make the. | 00:18:08 | |
The best possible effort to do it, but. | 00:18:09 | |
If somebody is out of town. | 00:18:12 | |
They're not going to be there. | 00:18:14 | |
So anyway. | 00:18:15 | |
But we can zoom it. | 00:18:17 | |
You could you have the ability as long as we make the public able to meaningfully participate. | 00:18:20 | |
The other thing this is the other thing that the updates to this. | 00:18:27 | |
So. | 00:18:30 | |
There was always some discussion. | 00:18:32 | |
If the. | 00:18:34 | |
If the City Council is. | 00:18:36 | |
As the blue moon. | 00:18:38 | |
Festival. | 00:18:40 | |
And. | 00:18:42 | |
Majority of the City Council is going to be there. Do you have to put out a public notice that the City Council is going to be at | 00:18:43 | |
the Blue Moon Festival? | 00:18:46 | |
I was going to ask that question if they're at the same event together or if they actually meet together. | 00:18:50 | |
So that goes back to the definition of a meeting, right? | 00:18:57 | |
So it has to be a meeting that's called by the body. | 00:19:01 | |
Right for the purpose of conducting public business, right. | 00:19:05 | |
So. | 00:19:08 | |
They used to have this big question. Well, what about a social gathering? We don't want them talking about it. You're still not | 00:19:10 | |
supposed to talk about public business. | 00:19:13 | |
At a meeting. | 00:19:16 | |
Or at excuse me. | 00:19:17 | |
At a meeting you are supposed to at a social gathering. | 00:19:19 | |
Or at a Blue Moon festival. | 00:19:21 | |
But the question has come up over and over again. Well, should you put out a public notice for that? | 00:19:23 | |
You don't need to put out a public notice for that, because you're not there intentionally talking about it now. | 00:19:28 | |
Should a quorum of you get together and sit together at a public at a blue moon festival and sit next to each other? | 00:19:33 | |
On the lawn. | 00:19:40 | |
Probably not. | 00:19:41 | |
It just gives a bad look. | 00:19:43 | |
Not so much for the Planning Commission, but again for the City Council if they were sitting together. | 00:19:46 | |
But the other thing is I had. | 00:19:50 | |
Had a City Council that. | 00:19:52 | |
One of the City Council members, who was new, wanted to get to know. | 00:19:54 | |
The council members to have you know. | 00:19:57 | |
Hopefully create some unity and some. | 00:19:59 | |
You know, build. | 00:20:02 | |
You know rapport with his fellow council members so he invited them all to a BBQ. | 00:20:03 | |
And the city recorder insisted on putting out a public notice. | 00:20:07 | |
But it's like, wait, he doesn't want. | 00:20:11 | |
Everybody knows where he lives, right? Because you have to put your address up when you're running for public office. But it's | 00:20:13 | |
like. | 00:20:15 | |
Why do we have to? | 00:20:19 | |
You know, so the Legislature has. | 00:20:20 | |
Thought that was kind of silly. | 00:20:22 | |
So you don't have to put out a notice for a social gathering. So. | 00:20:24 | |
Anyway. | 00:20:28 | |
There is a. The other question that always comes up on these is. | 00:20:29 | |
What about sending a text message? | 00:20:35 | |
During the meeting. | 00:20:38 | |
To another person like if I text her. | 00:20:42 | |
I would imagine that's not legal because it's not part of the public record if it's. | 00:20:47 | |
Like if I say, hey, I like your it's not, it's not illegal, right? | 00:20:51 | |
But if you send a message, but what? But you're not conducting your deliberations openly. So it could potentially be a violation | 00:20:55 | |
of the Open and Public Meetings Act because you're having conversations regarding the public's business. | 00:21:00 | |
Not in a closed session. | 00:21:06 | |
So what if somebody from. | 00:21:08 | |
Let's say. | 00:21:11 | |
That Commissioner, you know that, Chair Roaches. | 00:21:12 | |
Relative. | 00:21:19 | |
Was bringing an application before the city or before the Planning Commission? | 00:21:20 | |
And. | 00:21:24 | |
That relative starts texting Commissioner Roche during the. | 00:21:26 | |
During the meeting. | 00:21:29 | |
Do I have to recuse myself anyway, right? | 00:21:31 | |
Should, yes. | 00:21:34 | |
You. | 00:21:35 | |
You don't have to. You have to notify in writing of your conflict of interest. | 00:21:37 | |
Right, if you don't recruit yourself, you have to write about your conflict of interest. | 00:21:41 | |
But yes, they're texting me about what is happening in the public hearing. Then that would violate that because they have to come | 00:21:47 | |
to the podium and make it part of the public record, right? | 00:21:51 | |
So you didn't have control over that? | 00:21:56 | |
Right. | 00:21:59 | |
So my advice to you is. | 00:22:00 | |
Don't respond to it. | 00:22:02 | |
If they're sending you text messages. | 00:22:05 | |
Don't respond to it. | 00:22:07 | |
Right. I mean, talk to him after the meeting. | 00:22:08 | |
The easiest thing is. | 00:22:11 | |
Don't create a written record. | 00:22:14 | |
A phone call is not a written record. | 00:22:16 | |
Right. So you can't take a phone call in that situation. Don't do that anyway, don't take. | 00:22:18 | |
Identify the conflict of interest. | 00:22:24 | |
But if there's a question. | 00:22:25 | |
If you've got a question, a phone call is so much easier. | 00:22:27 | |
To avoid the creation of the record. | 00:22:30 | |
And especially. | 00:22:32 | |
When we don't have, when the city is not paying for your phones. | 00:22:33 | |
This is a personal cell phone. | 00:22:36 | |
The worst I've had to do this. | 00:22:38 | |
Got a grandma request? | 00:22:40 | |
From individuals, Council members. | 00:22:42 | |
They were texting or planning commissioners texting back and forth. | 00:22:44 | |
To people in the audience. | 00:22:47 | |
And. | 00:22:51 | |
Then the vote went. | 00:22:52 | |
Bad for the applicant. | 00:22:53 | |
And the applicant grandma requested all the text messages that were received. | 00:22:56 | |
Meeting. Those are all. | 00:22:59 | |
Records under grandma. | 00:23:02 | |
It's also embarrassing. | 00:23:05 | |
Can be very embarrassing. | 00:23:07 | |
So just don't do it if there's an issue that. | 00:23:09 | |
We're going to be discussing in a meeting. | 00:23:13 | |
And I'll and this has happened, I'll send. | 00:23:15 | |
Dennis, a text saying. | 00:23:18 | |
Sure. | 00:23:20 | |
Phone conversation. | 00:23:22 | |
If there's only two of you on the line or only three of you on the line. | 00:23:24 | |
Totally appropriate and totally fine. | 00:23:27 | |
It's when you get 4. | 00:23:30 | |
On the line and you're discussing public business. | 00:23:31 | |
That's a problem. | 00:23:33 | |
And we can't make any decisions in those conversations. | 00:23:35 | |
Well, I mean, candidly, you could say this is how I'm planning on voting on this. What do you think? | 00:23:38 | |
Well, sometimes it's just a matter of. | 00:23:44 | |
Help me understand. Sure. | 00:23:46 | |
Provide some. | 00:23:49 | |
That's OK. | 00:23:52 | |
It is, yeah. That is, that is totally OK. That's I mean. | 00:23:53 | |
You want to be. | 00:23:56 | |
Before you make, you want to be informed before you make the decision. | 00:23:58 | |
Right, if it happens during the meeting. | 00:24:01 | |
Than it that's a record, Yeah. So if yeah, you shouldn't have communications about the meeting during the meeting. | 00:24:03 | |
That the public is not able to. | 00:24:10 | |
Hear or participate in. | 00:24:12 | |
So I could say nice haircut and a text message that's fine. But if I say hey. | 00:24:15 | |
Get a load of this guy. That's a problem, right? Yeah. You don't want that. You don't want to do that. | 00:24:19 | |
Here's here's the other thing. So. | 00:24:24 | |
Here's what happened in this particular one. | 00:24:26 | |
There's a YouTube recording. | 00:24:28 | |
Posted permanently available. | 00:24:29 | |
On the city's channel, right. | 00:24:31 | |
The applicant that where this was held wasn't even there at the meeting. | 00:24:35 | |
But he watched the video. | 00:24:40 | |
She's one of the. | 00:24:42 | |
One of the elected officials. | 00:24:45 | |
Tapping out during the meeting. | 00:24:47 | |
Whoever that's to. | 00:24:50 | |
It's a record because it occurred during the meeting. | 00:24:52 | |
So don't create a record during the meeting that you're not prepared to turn over. | 00:24:55 | |
So. | 00:25:02 | |
Anyway. | 00:25:03 | |
To keep my inappropriate text to before and after. | 00:25:05 | |
All right, got it. | 00:25:12 | |
So these are some of the things. | 00:25:13 | |
They think are interesting. | 00:25:18 | |
Kind of principles in public hearings. | 00:25:19 | |
So residents of the city have a right to be heard during the public hearing. | 00:25:22 | |
Members of the public body are not required to respond to questions or comments. | 00:25:26 | |
At the podium that are brought to you by the podium. | 00:25:31 | |
Umm, public hearings should typically be opened by motion. | 00:25:34 | |
And a vote. | 00:25:39 | |
We could. | 00:25:40 | |
That's something that. | 00:25:42 | |
That's something we can do. | 00:25:45 | |
Here to remedy SO. | 00:25:46 | |
Anybody have a motion to open the public hearing? | 00:25:48 | |
Not everybody does that. | 00:25:52 | |
But. | 00:25:54 | |
That's perfect practice. | 00:25:56 | |
To open a public meeting. To motion to vote, to open the meeting hearing for this. To hear comment on this issue for item number | 00:25:59 | |
three on the agenda. | 00:26:02 | |
It would have wish people vote no. They could. | 00:26:07 | |
Right. Like why would you have a vote if you're? | 00:26:11 | |
Obligated to have a public hearing? You have to do it. | 00:26:13 | |
Umm, so we've typically opened them and there hasn't been any opposition. I mean, everybody has been through this process before. | 00:26:16 | |
That doesn't make the ones we've done defective. | 00:26:23 | |
But to. | 00:26:26 | |
Perfect. Our practice. | 00:26:29 | |
For whatever reason, if someone felt like they didn't want a public hearing opened at the time. | 00:26:32 | |
It was scheduled and supposed to happen. Could there be an argument made and a motion to call for a vote before opening it? | 00:26:38 | |
An argument. Let's say that again, like, could someone make an argument to not open the vote? Let's get. The applicant wasn't | 00:26:47 | |
there and said, hey, the applicant called. | 00:26:52 | |
And so let's let's have a motion to table this until next meeting. | 00:26:57 | |
You could do that, but if you're just like, oh, I see a bunch of people I don't like here and that's going to be bad for me today. | 00:27:01 | |
So like, I want a motion to not have the meeting. We could know. Yeah, you wouldn't. That would be the planning commission's, not | 00:27:04 | |
the applicant. | 00:27:08 | |
Right, if it's already been publicly noticed. | 00:27:13 | |
That ship sailed OK. | 00:27:16 | |
All right, that goes back to the first one. Residents of the city have a right to be heard, right? Right. | 00:27:17 | |
So. | 00:27:21 | |
The other thing, on land use applications, what happens typically after the public hearing? What do you usually do? | 00:27:23 | |
With the applicant. | 00:27:29 | |
Well, we invite the applicant to come up and address the comments made by the public and they have, that's a statutory right that | 00:27:31 | |
they have to address any public comments that were made during the. | 00:27:36 | |
Umm, they can make. They can bring additional information to respond to it, and they can even make legal arguments if they want. | 00:27:41 | |
Or any. | 00:27:44 | |
Doesn't have to be a legal argument, they could make that. | 00:27:48 | |
Umm, the. | 00:27:50 | |
The public comment and we've already announced this in it when we have a public hearing. | 00:27:55 | |
Does not have to be unending, right? | 00:27:59 | |
There's no right of. | 00:28:01 | |
We don't have the public well, we're concerned about the traffic. We don't need to hear. | 00:28:03 | |
75 people come up and say, Yep, I'm also concerned about the traffic, right? That's why we say. | 00:28:07 | |
We understand, we get it. Traffic's been said. | 00:28:13 | |
You know we don't need that again. | 00:28:16 | |
So if you've got something different, let's bring it up, but we don't need this here, 75 people said. I'm also concerned with the | 00:28:18 | |
traffic. | 00:28:20 |
* you need to log in to manage your favorites
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Loading...
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Loading...
Holiday Planning Commission. | 00:00:00 | |
I have done a couple of closed sessions for planning commissions. | 00:00:01 | |
And those were typically related to threats of legal action. | 00:00:05 | |
By applicants. | 00:00:09 | |
And then going over. | 00:00:11 | |
All the time going over. | 00:00:13 | |
Here's the issue. | 00:00:16 | |
I'm not telling you how to vote, but I'm telling you what you should consider when you make your vote. | 00:00:18 | |
Those kind of things. | 00:00:22 | |
So you get a substantial evidence kind of situation and the other, the other reasons are if we're discussing. | 00:00:24 | |
Like some sensitive property transaction or someone's character which I don't know if it's. So I have done that with the Planning | 00:00:30 | |
Commission before I. | 00:00:34 | |
Where you're talking about the professional character or mental competency of an individual. | 00:00:38 | |
Or if a crimes been committed. | 00:00:44 | |
Typically if a crime has been committed by a planning commissioner. | 00:00:46 | |
The city will typically deal with that outside. The Planning Commission wouldn't need to deal with that. The City Council might | 00:00:48 | |
need to deal with it. | 00:00:51 | |
But the Planning Commission. | 00:00:55 | |
Wouldn't deal with that directly. | 00:00:56 | |
Just interested in Yeah, we'll, we'll get to the, we'll get to those. | 00:00:59 | |
But anyway and so that. | 00:01:04 | |
The same numbers apply. | 00:01:06 | |
So Holiday has a six member council. | 00:01:11 | |
They have to have. | 00:01:13 | |
Council members and the mayor is not included in that quorum count. | 00:01:15 | |
Yes, Actually, no, the mayor does vote in in holiday. | 00:01:18 | |
They have. | 00:01:23 | |
Grandfathered form of government. | 00:01:24 | |
So can I ask a question about the? | 00:01:26 | |
Quorum for the Building Commission. | 00:01:29 | |
If there are four members and an applicant can tell it's not going to go well, but they think it might be more favorable if more | 00:01:32 | |
people were there. | 00:01:36 | |
Can they say hang on a second, I'm going to bring my application back next week? | 00:01:40 | |
They can't do that at any point in the process. | 00:01:45 | |
They don't have. They can. They can request that. You don't have to do that. | 00:01:48 | |
But I've never. | 00:01:51 | |
I've never been in a situation where. | 00:01:54 | |
That I would recommend. | 00:02:00 | |
Against that, if the applicant wants to withdraw and hold his, hold his or her application. | 00:02:01 | |
I would just allow them to do it. And conversely, if there's an issue that feels thorny and we're like, wait a second, let's wait | 00:02:07 | |
for everyone to be here, we could continue in. Yeah, The Planning Commission has the ability to. I mean, it would be, it would be | 00:02:11 | |
a motion to table. | 00:02:15 | |
Right, I move that we table this item until the full Planning Commission can hear this. | 00:02:20 | |
Right. And we've done that before here I can. | 00:02:24 | |
A couple of. | 00:02:27 | |
My head that we've done that. | 00:02:28 | |
The other thing that you so. | 00:02:33 | |
Anytime we have a public meeting and we had that issue today. | 00:02:36 | |
Right. How long? How long? When do you have to have? | 00:02:39 | |
The public meeting amendment posted. | 00:02:43 | |
Is it a 24 or 48 hours? 24 hours? | 00:02:46 | |
24 is after that. | 00:02:49 | |
Yep. So if you tried it, you can't. You cannot amend an agenda if there's less than 24 hours between now and the beginning of the | 00:02:51 | |
meeting. | 00:02:54 | |
So. | 00:02:58 | |
There's always an exception, right? | 00:03:01 | |
The exception is an emergency. | 00:03:03 | |
Typically there aren't Planning Commission emergencies. | 00:03:05 | |
That's something I have been involved in a couple of. | 00:03:08 | |
Emergency City Council meetings. | 00:03:12 | |
Those related to. | 00:03:14 | |
Violence that had was occurring in real time. The other one was related to a fire on a mountain. | 00:03:17 | |
That was happening in real time, so they convened a City Council meeting, too. | 00:03:23 | |
Appropriate some additional funding for. | 00:03:27 | |
Water trucks to come in. | 00:03:31 | |
So. | 00:03:34 | |
Let's see. | 00:03:36 | |
The other thing, That's as far as public notice. | 00:03:37 | |
When? When? Our city recorder Stephanie does a great job. | 00:03:40 | |
Putting these together. | 00:03:44 | |
And. | 00:03:46 | |
One of the things that's required is it says your agenda has to have. | 00:03:47 | |
Reasonable specificity of topics. | 00:03:51 | |
So you can't just put on there public hearing code text amendment. | 00:03:54 | |
Period. | 00:03:59 | |
Essay of what code are you amending? | 00:04:00 | |
And you know, it doesn't have to have the full blown. Here's the amendment that has to be available also, but through the packet. | 00:04:02 | |
But the agenda has to say. | 00:04:05 | |
Public hearing to amend. | 00:04:09 | |
This section of city code. | 00:04:11 | |
So you have to have a reasonable specificity so that any member of the public can look at the agenda. | 00:04:13 | |
It's available on the website and say oh. | 00:04:17 | |
OK. I'm interested in that. I'm going to go to that meeting. | 00:04:19 | |
Do people have to go somewhere else to see the packet? | 00:04:22 | |
Typically it's. | 00:04:27 | |
It's on the website right there. The agenda typically has its own link, and then the packet has a separate link so you're not | 00:04:28 | |
downloading. | 00:04:31 | |
300 pages unless you want to. | 00:04:34 | |
So sometimes they can be quite lengthy. | 00:04:36 | |
But they're easy to find. They're right next to each other. Yes, good. | 00:04:38 | |
They didn't used to be. They've updated the website from what I understand, right? | 00:04:40 | |
Because I feel like I've gone looking for the packet before on the public side and it was like not there. | 00:04:46 | |
Good question. | 00:04:53 | |
But I know they redid the website and let's test it. | 00:04:59 | |
Year. | 00:05:02 | |
Nice. Yeah, there's the agenda packet right there. | 00:05:04 | |
So yes, it has been fixed. | 00:05:08 | |
Sweet. Better organized. | 00:05:10 | |
That's great. The other thing that you guys have been through 100 times, well, 100 times a few. | 00:05:13 | |
Times. | 00:05:18 | |
Every year, the Planning Commission, any public body which is the City Council or. | 00:05:21 | |
A board of trustees if it's a different form of municipal entity. | 00:05:26 | |
Or a Planning Commission has to post its annual meeting schedule. | 00:05:30 | |
We did that. We approved it, if you remember, in December. | 00:05:34 | |
That's been posted with the Utah Public Notice website. | 00:05:38 | |
The other thing is public notices have to be posted in two places, the Utah Public Notice website, which is run by the state. | 00:05:40 | |
And the other one is at. | 00:05:46 | |
City Hall. | 00:05:48 | |
That's where we post those two things. It used to require a notice in the newspaper. | 00:05:50 | |
Since we're really newspapers like they once were. | 00:05:55 | |
Got delivered every home or most homes? | 00:05:58 | |
State doesn't require it anymore. It's kind of. | 00:06:01 | |
Unable to comply with that, so we don't require it. | 00:06:04 | |
Is it a requirement that they be available on Zoom? | 00:06:06 | |
No. | 00:06:10 | |
The only requirement is that they be available on Zoom is if you're going to allow. | 00:06:12 | |
You guys to attend via Zoom? | 00:06:18 | |
So if you're going to allow. | 00:06:21 | |
Remote participation, and we have that allowed. | 00:06:23 | |
But you have to if you guys are going to be. | 00:06:26 | |
Having the meeting electronically. | 00:06:28 | |
Then you have to have meaningful. Is the term meaningful? | 00:06:31 | |
Ways for the public to participate. | 00:06:35 | |
So you have to have availability for them to publicly address during a public hearing. | 00:06:37 | |
Be able to submit comments whether. | 00:06:43 | |
Written or. | 00:06:45 | |
Voice you need to be able to make sure that they are able to meaningfully. | 00:06:47 | |
Meaningfully participate. | 00:06:51 | |
In the meeting. | 00:06:53 | |
So. | 00:06:55 | |
And Holiday has adopted that and that's actually the next topic is electronically. | 00:06:57 | |
The city has to formally. | 00:07:03 | |
Authorize that. | 00:07:04 | |
Which they have. | 00:07:05 | |
City and its code has. | 00:07:06 | |
Electronic meeting. | 00:07:09 | |
Policies. | 00:07:10 | |
The changes there have been changes in electronic meeting. | 00:07:12 | |
Section they used to require. | 00:07:16 | |
That. | 00:07:18 | |
It was only you had to have. | 00:07:20 | |
Somebody had to be here. | 00:07:22 | |
Somebody had to be at an anchor location. | 00:07:24 | |
And it had to be within the city, right? They don't require that anymore. | 00:07:26 | |
But they do require that if you. | 00:07:31 | |
Are going to do that? | 00:07:34 | |
As I said before, meaningful participation. | 00:07:35 | |
They're able to meaningfully monitor, listen. | 00:07:38 | |
Anticipate. | 00:07:41 | |
If there's public comment section, they have to be able to do that. | 00:07:42 | |
One of the challenges that we saw with that during COVID. | 00:07:45 | |
Is that there were. | 00:07:48 | |
You know some bad actors that would take over meetings? They figured out ways to. | 00:07:50 | |
You know, hack the meeting and hijack it and then. | 00:07:54 | |
You know, have some obscene material that was shared to the public that was participating in those. | 00:07:57 | |
That happened here in Utah on multiple occasions, so. | 00:08:04 | |
That's one of the things that is. | 00:08:07 | |
Just a word of warning. | 00:08:09 | |
But yeah, that's. | 00:08:12 | |
Umm. | 00:08:14 | |
Let's see. | 00:08:17 | |
OK, then let's see minutes and recording required of all meetings so. | 00:08:22 | |
As you know, Carrie turns on the recorder. | 00:08:26 | |
Record this entire meeting. | 00:08:29 | |
And it is broadcast. We do this on YouTube, right? | 00:08:31 | |
YouTube. | 00:08:34 | |
On the city's website. | 00:08:36 | |
So we have a live feed on the city's website. | 00:08:40 | |
Some cities use YouTube, some cities use Zoom. | 00:08:43 | |
But there's typically recording is required. It doesn't have to be a video recording. | 00:08:46 | |
But you have to maintain an audio recording most places. | 00:08:50 | |
With. | 00:08:54 | |
The ease and availability of cameras. | 00:08:54 | |
Are having video with audio with video. | 00:08:57 | |
So. | 00:09:00 | |
Written minutes are required. Does anybody know what the official record? | 00:09:02 | |
Meeting is. | 00:09:06 | |
The meeting minutes. The meeting minutes are the official record. The audio recording is not the official record. Neither is the | 00:09:10 | |
video recording, but the. | 00:09:13 | |
Minutes are. | 00:09:17 | |
Minutes are not required to. | 00:09:19 | |
Be a transcript of what occurred. | 00:09:21 | |
And not word for word. It's meant to be a. | 00:09:25 | |
Kind of this is what happened. | 00:09:28 | |
You know, minutes could be as simple as. | 00:09:30 | |
You know, Mr. Christopherson provided the open and public meetings training and that took from this time to this time. | 00:09:33 | |
It could be as straightforward as that. | 00:09:40 | |
So which is important considering next meeting if there's something in particular that. | 00:09:41 | |
You felt was an impressive point that needed to be. | 00:09:46 | |
Called out then you could ask to amend that on the official meeting minutes if it was omitted for some reason, correct? Yep, to | 00:09:49 | |
give you a chance to. | 00:09:53 | |
Review and then they have to be approved. The only the approved minutes are the official record, right? | 00:09:58 | |
Draft minutes. | 00:10:03 | |
Have to be posted three days after. | 00:10:05 | |
Within 3 days. | 00:10:08 | |
The audio recording has to be available within three days after the meeting, the draft minutes as soon as they are prepared. | 00:10:10 | |
You know is a reasonable time after they are prepared so you don't have to come up with draft minutes if they don't exist. | 00:10:17 | |
But. | 00:10:22 | |
Should you try to get them? | 00:10:24 | |
Available as soon as. | 00:10:25 | |
Soon as you can. | 00:10:27 | |
And then once they're approved minutes, they have to be posted within 24 hours. | 00:10:28 | |
So no, sorry. | 00:10:33 | |
That's the three days. | 00:10:35 | |
Three days is the approve minutes. | 00:10:37 | |
How long do you have to retain the minutes? | 00:10:40 | |
Probably indefinitely. | 00:10:44 | |
Permanently. How long do you have to retain the audio recording? | 00:10:45 | |
Guessing a couple of years. | 00:10:48 | |
Indefinitely, yeah. | 00:10:50 | |
Permanently. | 00:10:52 | |
It's my great grandkids can watch this. | 00:10:53 | |
And the the wording from the state statute on what's in the minutes, the substance of what was shared. | 00:10:57 | |
Needs to be. | 00:11:02 | |
I'll e-mail the PowerPoint here that I'm so that it can be included in the in the minutes as part of the city record. | 00:11:04 | |
Although how are our minutes constructed? Is that AI transcription and then condensed somehow? Or is it a human? Right now I | 00:11:10 | |
believe they're all human. Done. | 00:11:14 | |
There are. | 00:11:19 | |
Schools that are getting better and better at. | 00:11:21 | |
AI tools that are getting better and better at preparing minutes. | 00:11:23 | |
So some of them. | 00:11:27 | |
They're really good at doing a transcription. | 00:11:29 | |
They're less good right now. | 00:11:31 | |
Less sophisticated to create minutes. | 00:11:35 | |
That aren't a transcription, a summary of important stuff that was shared. | 00:11:37 | |
But there are some that are actually. | 00:11:41 | |
Quite sophisticated at doing it and. | 00:11:43 | |
They're becoming. | 00:11:46 | |
More and more available and. | 00:11:47 | |
Cheaper. | 00:11:48 | |
Let's see. | 00:11:51 | |
Umm, now. | 00:11:53 | |
I use this term and not everybody will remember this but. | 00:11:55 | |
I don't remember it from having when it happened. I don't think I was born quite yet, but. | 00:11:58 | |
The Watergate tapes, What was wrong with those? | 00:12:04 | |
The Watergate. | 00:12:07 | |
Tapes the missing 18 minutes. Missing 18 minutes so. | 00:12:08 | |
You have to have a complete unedited. | 00:12:13 | |
Record. | 00:12:15 | |
On the audio recording. | 00:12:17 | |
So the Watergate tapes would not be in compliant if they had been. | 00:12:19 | |
There's missing 18 minutes. | 00:12:24 | |
So again, those have to be. | 00:12:25 | |
Available, as I said, within 3 days of the meeting. | 00:12:27 | |
Available to the public. | 00:12:30 | |
Typically on the website. | 00:12:32 | |
And they are required to be. | 00:12:33 | |
Permanently retained as well. | 00:12:35 | |
Which we said I got ahead of myself. | 00:12:37 | |
Umm, again? | 00:12:40 | |
OK. So hang on a minute. Yeah. So you have to have a quorum for a proposed meeting, for a closed meeting. | 00:12:42 | |
Plus 2/3 of the vote. | 00:12:47 | |
Right. So we did get that clear. | 00:12:49 | |
And it has to be for one of the purposes in. | 00:12:53 | |
Utah Code Title 52. | 00:12:56 | |
Chapter 4. Section 205. | 00:12:58 | |
So again, we talked about. | 00:13:01 | |
Strategy session to discuss litigation. | 00:13:02 | |
Strategy session to discuss the acquisition of real property. | 00:13:05 | |
Acquisition or sale of real property. | 00:13:09 | |
Mental, Mental. Physical. | 00:13:12 | |
Were professional competency. | 00:13:15 | |
Of an individual. | 00:13:18 | |
Those ones, there's a little nuance to that. You don't maintain a recording of that one. | 00:13:19 | |
Can you guys guess why? | 00:13:23 | |
Well, you don't maintain a recording of. | 00:13:26 | |
A closed meeting about someone's mental competency. | 00:13:28 | |
Yeah, that's the only one you don't maintain a recording of all the other ones you do. | 00:13:31 | |
Really. Yeah. | 00:13:36 | |
Why do you think that is? | 00:13:37 | |
Say that again, the court can disagree that. | 00:13:40 | |
True, but that's not why. So it's an exception in the statute of why the statute? | 00:13:46 | |
The reason they do that is because they want people to be able to be open. | 00:13:53 | |
And be able to share and. | 00:13:57 | |
Have a meaningful discussion without fear of retribution. | 00:14:00 | |
And we don't want to violate HIPAA either. | 00:14:03 | |
So. | 00:14:06 | |
Is that the mental or physical competency of. | 00:14:08 | |
An applicant. | 00:14:13 | |
No. | 00:14:16 | |
It would typically, so you guys would. I can't imagine a scenario. | 00:14:17 | |
That that would come before the Planning Commission. It does come before the City Council. | 00:14:22 | |
Right, because they're the ultimate. | 00:14:26 | |
Authority. The legislative body of the city. So you would. | 00:14:28 | |
If you want to terminate. | 00:14:31 | |
You know somebody's employment. | 00:14:32 | |
Because of character or mental or physical competency of an individual. Their ability to do a job. | 00:14:35 | |
You would hold a closed session to have that discussion, so. | 00:14:41 | |
Private. You wouldn't want those deliberations to be public. | 00:14:44 | |
So those are kind of those situations and I have been involved in a number of those over the years. | 00:14:47 | |
So if we all deem that the applicant is. | 00:14:53 | |
Appearing to be mentally incompetent, we would just roll forward and try and be nice. | 00:14:56 | |
You'd probably ask staff to say, hey, you know, are you OK? You know, like, say, let's take a recess. I would probably break the | 00:15:01 | |
meeting, pause the meeting for a minute, take a recess, everybody get a drink. | 00:15:06 | |
Use restroom, whatever. | 00:15:12 | |
And then have somebody from staff probably approaching. | 00:15:14 | |
Say hey, everything alright? | 00:15:17 | |
So I wouldn't just. | 00:15:19 | |
Well. | 00:15:21 | |
This is entertaining. Let's keep going. | 00:15:22 | |
Umm, let's see deployment of security measures. | 00:15:26 | |
That's one that you would do, but that again, that wouldn't be. | 00:15:31 | |
There wouldn't be anything that we would do in Planning Commission but City Council. | 00:15:35 | |
Well, we did one for the Planning Commission two years ago or a year and a half ago. Oh, that's true, actually, yeah. | 00:15:39 | |
To notify of a kind of like emergency. | 00:15:45 | |
Preparation, right? | 00:15:47 | |
There you go. So yeah, we could do that. | 00:15:49 | |
Let's see one of the So the other thing, and this goes for more for Council, but. | 00:15:53 | |
UMM is specifically stated that you cannot. | 00:15:58 | |
Conduct interviews to appoint a member of to the body in. | 00:16:02 | |
In a closed session. | 00:16:07 | |
So this is typically for vacancy on the City Council. | 00:16:09 | |
If they want to, if there's a vacancy on the City Council, they have to produce notice. | 00:16:11 | |
And notify anybody that wants to that they there's a vacancy and if you want to apply to this. | 00:16:15 | |
You know it's open and here's the requirements. | 00:16:20 | |
To be a registered voter in living in the area for X amount of time. | 00:16:23 | |
I think it's. | 00:16:28 | |
There's a couple of different. | 00:16:31 | |
I can't remember if it's a year, if it's six months living in the. | 00:16:33 | |
In the district or the city where you're trying to be appointed? | 00:16:36 | |
And then? | 00:16:39 | |
You have to be registered voter. I know that's required. | 00:16:41 | |
Umm, but you cannot conduct those interviews in a closed session. They have to be conducted in an open meeting that the public can | 00:16:44 | |
attend. | 00:16:47 | |
And then there has to be a public vote on it. | 00:16:51 | |
It's really kind of disconcerting for the applicants. | 00:16:53 | |
But. | 00:16:56 | |
They knew that before they submitted their application. | 00:16:57 | |
It's not how. | 00:17:00 | |
Councilman Brewer got on the. | 00:17:01 | |
Council when that seat was vacated. | 00:17:03 | |
Right, like 3-4 years ago. Yeah, I believe so. | 00:17:07 | |
Let's see emergency meeting. The funny thing is that emergency is not defined in the statute. | 00:17:14 | |
We talked a little bit about those, but you have to have. | 00:17:19 | |
A majority of the members of the body public body have to approve the meeting. | 00:17:23 | |
So. | 00:17:28 | |
Three members of the Planning Commission can't just have a meeting. | 00:17:29 | |
In an emergency situation because. | 00:17:31 | |
They want to. They still have to have 4. You still have to have a quorum. | 00:17:33 | |
Umm, and that you have to attempt to notify all members so that you don't. | 00:17:37 | |
Purposely leave somebody out. | 00:17:44 | |
And you have to give us best notice as is practical. | 00:17:47 | |
Practicable for the situation. | 00:17:50 | |
So if there's a fire burning on the mountain and you need to. | 00:17:53 | |
Be able to have a meeting. | 00:17:56 | |
To address you, know your evacuation plans if necessary and discuss those in a meeting. | 00:17:57 | |
Umm, you. | 00:18:02 | |
Try to notify everyone if you can. | 00:18:04 | |
And you make the. | 00:18:07 | |
You make the. | 00:18:08 | |
The best possible effort to do it, but. | 00:18:09 | |
If somebody is out of town. | 00:18:12 | |
They're not going to be there. | 00:18:14 | |
So anyway. | 00:18:15 | |
But we can zoom it. | 00:18:17 | |
You could you have the ability as long as we make the public able to meaningfully participate. | 00:18:20 | |
The other thing this is the other thing that the updates to this. | 00:18:27 | |
So. | 00:18:30 | |
There was always some discussion. | 00:18:32 | |
If the. | 00:18:34 | |
If the City Council is. | 00:18:36 | |
As the blue moon. | 00:18:38 | |
Festival. | 00:18:40 | |
And. | 00:18:42 | |
Majority of the City Council is going to be there. Do you have to put out a public notice that the City Council is going to be at | 00:18:43 | |
the Blue Moon Festival? | 00:18:46 | |
I was going to ask that question if they're at the same event together or if they actually meet together. | 00:18:50 | |
So that goes back to the definition of a meeting, right? | 00:18:57 | |
So it has to be a meeting that's called by the body. | 00:19:01 | |
Right for the purpose of conducting public business, right. | 00:19:05 | |
So. | 00:19:08 | |
They used to have this big question. Well, what about a social gathering? We don't want them talking about it. You're still not | 00:19:10 | |
supposed to talk about public business. | 00:19:13 | |
At a meeting. | 00:19:16 | |
Or at excuse me. | 00:19:17 | |
At a meeting you are supposed to at a social gathering. | 00:19:19 | |
Or at a Blue Moon festival. | 00:19:21 | |
But the question has come up over and over again. Well, should you put out a public notice for that? | 00:19:23 | |
You don't need to put out a public notice for that, because you're not there intentionally talking about it now. | 00:19:28 | |
Should a quorum of you get together and sit together at a public at a blue moon festival and sit next to each other? | 00:19:33 | |
On the lawn. | 00:19:40 | |
Probably not. | 00:19:41 | |
It just gives a bad look. | 00:19:43 | |
Not so much for the Planning Commission, but again for the City Council if they were sitting together. | 00:19:46 | |
But the other thing is I had. | 00:19:50 | |
Had a City Council that. | 00:19:52 | |
One of the City Council members, who was new, wanted to get to know. | 00:19:54 | |
The council members to have you know. | 00:19:57 | |
Hopefully create some unity and some. | 00:19:59 | |
You know, build. | 00:20:02 | |
You know rapport with his fellow council members so he invited them all to a BBQ. | 00:20:03 | |
And the city recorder insisted on putting out a public notice. | 00:20:07 | |
But it's like, wait, he doesn't want. | 00:20:11 | |
Everybody knows where he lives, right? Because you have to put your address up when you're running for public office. But it's | 00:20:13 | |
like. | 00:20:15 | |
Why do we have to? | 00:20:19 | |
You know, so the Legislature has. | 00:20:20 | |
Thought that was kind of silly. | 00:20:22 | |
So you don't have to put out a notice for a social gathering. So. | 00:20:24 | |
Anyway. | 00:20:28 | |
There is a. The other question that always comes up on these is. | 00:20:29 | |
What about sending a text message? | 00:20:35 | |
During the meeting. | 00:20:38 | |
To another person like if I text her. | 00:20:42 | |
I would imagine that's not legal because it's not part of the public record if it's. | 00:20:47 | |
Like if I say, hey, I like your it's not, it's not illegal, right? | 00:20:51 | |
But if you send a message, but what? But you're not conducting your deliberations openly. So it could potentially be a violation | 00:20:55 | |
of the Open and Public Meetings Act because you're having conversations regarding the public's business. | 00:21:00 | |
Not in a closed session. | 00:21:06 | |
So what if somebody from. | 00:21:08 | |
Let's say. | 00:21:11 | |
That Commissioner, you know that, Chair Roaches. | 00:21:12 | |
Relative. | 00:21:19 | |
Was bringing an application before the city or before the Planning Commission? | 00:21:20 | |
And. | 00:21:24 | |
That relative starts texting Commissioner Roche during the. | 00:21:26 | |
During the meeting. | 00:21:29 | |
Do I have to recuse myself anyway, right? | 00:21:31 | |
Should, yes. | 00:21:34 | |
You. | 00:21:35 | |
You don't have to. You have to notify in writing of your conflict of interest. | 00:21:37 | |
Right, if you don't recruit yourself, you have to write about your conflict of interest. | 00:21:41 | |
But yes, they're texting me about what is happening in the public hearing. Then that would violate that because they have to come | 00:21:47 | |
to the podium and make it part of the public record, right? | 00:21:51 | |
So you didn't have control over that? | 00:21:56 | |
Right. | 00:21:59 | |
So my advice to you is. | 00:22:00 | |
Don't respond to it. | 00:22:02 | |
If they're sending you text messages. | 00:22:05 | |
Don't respond to it. | 00:22:07 | |
Right. I mean, talk to him after the meeting. | 00:22:08 | |
The easiest thing is. | 00:22:11 | |
Don't create a written record. | 00:22:14 | |
A phone call is not a written record. | 00:22:16 | |
Right. So you can't take a phone call in that situation. Don't do that anyway, don't take. | 00:22:18 | |
Identify the conflict of interest. | 00:22:24 | |
But if there's a question. | 00:22:25 | |
If you've got a question, a phone call is so much easier. | 00:22:27 | |
To avoid the creation of the record. | 00:22:30 | |
And especially. | 00:22:32 | |
When we don't have, when the city is not paying for your phones. | 00:22:33 | |
This is a personal cell phone. | 00:22:36 | |
The worst I've had to do this. | 00:22:38 | |
Got a grandma request? | 00:22:40 | |
From individuals, Council members. | 00:22:42 | |
They were texting or planning commissioners texting back and forth. | 00:22:44 | |
To people in the audience. | 00:22:47 | |
And. | 00:22:51 | |
Then the vote went. | 00:22:52 | |
Bad for the applicant. | 00:22:53 | |
And the applicant grandma requested all the text messages that were received. | 00:22:56 | |
Meeting. Those are all. | 00:22:59 | |
Records under grandma. | 00:23:02 | |
It's also embarrassing. | 00:23:05 | |
Can be very embarrassing. | 00:23:07 | |
So just don't do it if there's an issue that. | 00:23:09 | |
We're going to be discussing in a meeting. | 00:23:13 | |
And I'll and this has happened, I'll send. | 00:23:15 | |
Dennis, a text saying. | 00:23:18 | |
Sure. | 00:23:20 | |
Phone conversation. | 00:23:22 | |
If there's only two of you on the line or only three of you on the line. | 00:23:24 | |
Totally appropriate and totally fine. | 00:23:27 | |
It's when you get 4. | 00:23:30 | |
On the line and you're discussing public business. | 00:23:31 | |
That's a problem. | 00:23:33 | |
And we can't make any decisions in those conversations. | 00:23:35 | |
Well, I mean, candidly, you could say this is how I'm planning on voting on this. What do you think? | 00:23:38 | |
Well, sometimes it's just a matter of. | 00:23:44 | |
Help me understand. Sure. | 00:23:46 | |
Provide some. | 00:23:49 | |
That's OK. | 00:23:52 | |
It is, yeah. That is, that is totally OK. That's I mean. | 00:23:53 | |
You want to be. | 00:23:56 | |
Before you make, you want to be informed before you make the decision. | 00:23:58 | |
Right, if it happens during the meeting. | 00:24:01 | |
Than it that's a record, Yeah. So if yeah, you shouldn't have communications about the meeting during the meeting. | 00:24:03 | |
That the public is not able to. | 00:24:10 | |
Hear or participate in. | 00:24:12 | |
So I could say nice haircut and a text message that's fine. But if I say hey. | 00:24:15 | |
Get a load of this guy. That's a problem, right? Yeah. You don't want that. You don't want to do that. | 00:24:19 | |
Here's here's the other thing. So. | 00:24:24 | |
Here's what happened in this particular one. | 00:24:26 | |
There's a YouTube recording. | 00:24:28 | |
Posted permanently available. | 00:24:29 | |
On the city's channel, right. | 00:24:31 | |
The applicant that where this was held wasn't even there at the meeting. | 00:24:35 | |
But he watched the video. | 00:24:40 | |
She's one of the. | 00:24:42 | |
One of the elected officials. | 00:24:45 | |
Tapping out during the meeting. | 00:24:47 | |
Whoever that's to. | 00:24:50 | |
It's a record because it occurred during the meeting. | 00:24:52 | |
So don't create a record during the meeting that you're not prepared to turn over. | 00:24:55 | |
So. | 00:25:02 | |
Anyway. | 00:25:03 | |
To keep my inappropriate text to before and after. | 00:25:05 | |
All right, got it. | 00:25:12 | |
So these are some of the things. | 00:25:13 | |
They think are interesting. | 00:25:18 | |
Kind of principles in public hearings. | 00:25:19 | |
So residents of the city have a right to be heard during the public hearing. | 00:25:22 | |
Members of the public body are not required to respond to questions or comments. | 00:25:26 | |
At the podium that are brought to you by the podium. | 00:25:31 | |
Umm, public hearings should typically be opened by motion. | 00:25:34 | |
And a vote. | 00:25:39 | |
We could. | 00:25:40 | |
That's something that. | 00:25:42 | |
That's something we can do. | 00:25:45 | |
Here to remedy SO. | 00:25:46 | |
Anybody have a motion to open the public hearing? | 00:25:48 | |
Not everybody does that. | 00:25:52 | |
But. | 00:25:54 | |
That's perfect practice. | 00:25:56 | |
To open a public meeting. To motion to vote, to open the meeting hearing for this. To hear comment on this issue for item number | 00:25:59 | |
three on the agenda. | 00:26:02 | |
It would have wish people vote no. They could. | 00:26:07 | |
Right. Like why would you have a vote if you're? | 00:26:11 | |
Obligated to have a public hearing? You have to do it. | 00:26:13 | |
Umm, so we've typically opened them and there hasn't been any opposition. I mean, everybody has been through this process before. | 00:26:16 | |
That doesn't make the ones we've done defective. | 00:26:23 | |
But to. | 00:26:26 | |
Perfect. Our practice. | 00:26:29 | |
For whatever reason, if someone felt like they didn't want a public hearing opened at the time. | 00:26:32 | |
It was scheduled and supposed to happen. Could there be an argument made and a motion to call for a vote before opening it? | 00:26:38 | |
An argument. Let's say that again, like, could someone make an argument to not open the vote? Let's get. The applicant wasn't | 00:26:47 | |
there and said, hey, the applicant called. | 00:26:52 | |
And so let's let's have a motion to table this until next meeting. | 00:26:57 | |
You could do that, but if you're just like, oh, I see a bunch of people I don't like here and that's going to be bad for me today. | 00:27:01 | |
So like, I want a motion to not have the meeting. We could know. Yeah, you wouldn't. That would be the planning commission's, not | 00:27:04 | |
the applicant. | 00:27:08 | |
Right, if it's already been publicly noticed. | 00:27:13 | |
That ship sailed OK. | 00:27:16 | |
All right, that goes back to the first one. Residents of the city have a right to be heard, right? Right. | 00:27:17 | |
So. | 00:27:21 | |
The other thing, on land use applications, what happens typically after the public hearing? What do you usually do? | 00:27:23 | |
With the applicant. | 00:27:29 | |
Well, we invite the applicant to come up and address the comments made by the public and they have, that's a statutory right that | 00:27:31 | |
they have to address any public comments that were made during the. | 00:27:36 | |
Umm, they can make. They can bring additional information to respond to it, and they can even make legal arguments if they want. | 00:27:41 | |
Or any. | 00:27:44 | |
Doesn't have to be a legal argument, they could make that. | 00:27:48 | |
Umm, the. | 00:27:50 | |
The public comment and we've already announced this in it when we have a public hearing. | 00:27:55 | |
Does not have to be unending, right? | 00:27:59 | |
There's no right of. | 00:28:01 | |
We don't have the public well, we're concerned about the traffic. We don't need to hear. | 00:28:03 | |
75 people come up and say, Yep, I'm also concerned about the traffic, right? That's why we say. | 00:28:07 | |
We understand, we get it. Traffic's been said. | 00:28:13 | |
You know we don't need that again. | 00:28:16 | |
So if you've got something different, let's bring it up, but we don't need this here, 75 people said. I'm also concerned with the | 00:28:18 | |
traffic. | 00:28:20 |