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All right, Well, good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission, February 4th, 2025. 00:00:00
We have all commissioners in attendance, less Commissioner Gong, who sent her regrets. 00:00:07
And we have. 00:00:11
Action-packed agenda of two items today with. 00:00:13
Public hearing on his own amendment. 00:00:17
And then an action item for approval of minutes. And I have asked Vice Chair, Commissioner Prince if she would read for us. 00:00:20
The notice we give to all members of the public that attend this meeting. 00:00:28
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen board whose function is to review land use plans and other special 00:00:32
studies. 00:00:36
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map and ordinance changes. 00:00:40
And approve conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:00:45
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:00:49
Rather. 00:00:52
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except at publicly noticed meetings. 00:00:56
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location, the nature of the neighborhood. 00:01:00
Existing structures and uses related to the proposed changes are noted. 00:01:06
Decisions are based on observations, recommendations from the professional planning staff. 00:01:11
The city's general plan, zoning ordinance and other reports. 00:01:16
By all verbal and written comments and by evidence submitted, all of which are part of the public record. 00:01:20
Thank you very much. 00:01:27
And with that, we will roll into our first item on the agenda, which is the zone map amendment for Rezone and we will ask city 00:01:30
staff. 00:01:36
If they will give us an overview of this item. 00:01:41
Sorry, I forgot to turn on the cameras. 00:01:48
Let me get that set and then I will. 00:01:52
I see the blue light I think we're on. 00:01:57
Sorry for the delay. 00:02:01
All right. 00:02:35
Just that last item, Cameras. 00:02:47
For it all right. So this application is for a zone map amendment. 00:02:49
For the property located at 2232 E Pheasant Way. 00:02:56
In the R 187 zone and the request is to rezone from R187 with A2 acre minimum lot size. 00:03:01
To our 1:43. 00:03:09
The intent of the rezone is to reduce the land area required to facilitate. 00:03:15
A property line shift between two neighboring properties. 00:03:23
Just a little background on the area, this is the Estates area and in the general plan for holiday. 00:03:27
This is identified as country estates protected. 00:03:36
The area is largely serviced by private lanes, has a dense mature tree canopy and large parcels. 00:03:40
When the city incorporated in 1999, there was an intentional zoning pattern where. 00:03:48
Areas. 00:03:57
Designated with a zone with a minimum lot size larger than even some of the lots. So there is a lot of non conforming lots 00:04:00
created. 00:04:03
When the city was incorporated. 00:04:07
The intent of that was. 00:04:09
To prevent mass subdividing of property. 00:04:12
Was a large part of the reason for incorporating from Salt Lake County. 00:04:16
To be able to control that subdivision of land. 00:04:20
Some more contextual background specific to this property and some neighbors. 00:04:26
In 2007. 00:04:33
Planned unit development was approved for. 00:04:35
5 units on 15.75 acres of land. 00:04:39
So that was the property that was directly to the South and then the two lots that. 00:04:44
Were later subdivided. 00:04:50
And the PUD wasn't It was approved but wasn't ever recorded. 00:04:52
And the landowner there eventually wanted to create 2 lots for sale, and that's when these two lots were created, just under a 00:04:56
standard subdivision process instead of the planned unit development process. So the subdivision was created with those two lots, 00:05:04
each of them meeting the zone requirements of having two acres of land per Watt. 00:05:11
Within the general plan. 00:05:20
Country estates protected. The intent of that designation is to preserve existing large lot development patterns. 00:05:23
It calls out the mature tree canopy and ambiance created by a state type development on private lanes as being. 00:05:32
Protected features within that country's estates area. 00:05:40
Guidance there is that new development can be appropriate, appropriately accommodated. 00:05:45
Through utilizing unclaimed density by and not. 00:05:51
Or let's see by subdivision and not by rezones. 00:05:55
So that's where you'll see like shifting of lot areas around. 00:05:59
And potentially new subdivisions created that way or from sub fighting larger parcels like the original 15 acre parcel. 00:06:03
Was a subdivision. New lots were created that way with that two acre standard. 00:06:12
The intent of that two acre standard was to preserve a lot of open space. 00:06:19
In our work meeting, we looked at lot coverage areas. 00:06:23
But that's a concern of the areas. 00:06:27
How much structure will cover a? 00:06:29
A particular parcel and basing that on percentage sizes so that there is a preservation of. 00:06:33
Open space on larger bots. 00:06:39
The analysis for the rezone was included in the staff report with rezone approval standards. 00:06:45
And the role of the Planning Commission tonight is then to make a recommendation to the City Council and. 00:06:53
I can have the applicant come up her and she can invite him. 00:07:00
OK. Well, thank you very much for that. And I think the the the bar has been set on what needs to be covered. 00:07:02
And we would love to hear from the applicant and. 00:07:10
Invite them up now. 00:07:16
Thank you for hearing this. 00:07:23
Application tonight. 00:07:25
I was on the. 00:07:27
Master plan committee. 00:07:28
Chairman, actually for the City of Highland, I just calculated 32 years ago. 00:07:30
And I admire master planning, so I understand what. 00:07:36
The city has tried to do and we're very happy that you're. 00:07:41
Holding to. 00:07:44
The standards. 00:07:45
I'm going to. 00:07:46
My name, by the way, is Randall Paul. 00:07:49
My wife and I live at 2232 Pheasant Way. 00:07:51
I don't know if you've seen this, but this picture is worth 1000 words so I'm going to. 00:07:55
Just give you these. 00:08:00
This is the current zoning. You'll see where the zoning. 00:08:06
The property line goes down. 00:08:09
Middle of the driveway. 00:08:13
The property that. 00:08:15
My daughter. 00:08:17
Thank you. And we're asking to move that property. 00:08:19
And I think we might have an image of that up on the TV as well. 00:08:25
That that to make you. 00:08:29
Property line to a three acre. One acre. 00:08:37
Location her, she has the estate, we have a smaller. 00:08:41
Development there and we bought it. 00:08:45
At the same time and we were going to subdivide it and. 00:08:47
Not subdivided. We thought we were only going to make a property line shift and we found we had to go through this process. 00:08:51
So. 00:08:57
I've looked into. 00:08:59
The situation and I think you'll see. 00:09:01
That we've just heard what the general plan is for this area. 00:09:04
And that this. 00:09:08
Will not change any. 00:09:10
Building whatsoever, we're not planning on changing anything. 00:09:12
Other than moving. 00:09:16
The property line to a three acre. 00:09:18
One acre ownership. 00:09:20
So the trees are there. 00:09:24
There will be no new development. 00:09:27
We're not asking for that. 00:09:29
In fact, if you'll see the center portion. 00:09:30
No build area. 00:09:37
Seriously. 00:09:40
In other words, either. 00:09:42
We would not want anyone to. 00:09:44
Build on that property, come in years from now and say, well we've got an acre now, we've got 3 acres, we're going to. 00:09:46
Cut down one acre. 00:09:52
We'll build on it. 00:09:54
We will make a permanent easement on that ourselves because we wouldn't want that to happen either, right? 00:09:56
Don't want our view of the mountain to be blocked by a house right in our front yard? 00:10:02
So there are two issues that I've looked at and I. 00:10:06
From a planning standpoint. 00:10:09
I really believe. 00:10:11
That if you wanted to stipulate that we put a permanent no build easement. 00:10:13
On the. 00:10:19
The three acre portion. 00:10:20
That leaves an acre in front. We'd be glad to do that, right? 00:10:22
If you're concerned that someone might come in later and say, oh, we've got 3 acres. 00:10:25
Now we'll cut it down to two. 00:10:30
And give someone the land that would be. 00:10:32
I think they'd be crazy, but. 00:10:35
You know they'd say well. 00:10:38
To make money will. 00:10:40
We'll try to sell an acre off and yes, that'll cut right through the middle of our driveway. 00:10:43
In other words, it's to me it's not even a realistic option. 00:10:48
But I'm trying to. 00:10:52
Face any criticism of our plan. 00:10:54
That somehow it would hurt the city in any way. 00:10:57
So our intent is simply to move the property line. 00:11:02
OK, well, I appreciate the narrative and I'm going to ask my fellow commissioners if they have any questions for you. The 1st I 00:11:06
just. 00:11:10
I want to make sure I understand because you kind of talked around some things there, but. 00:11:15
If the intent is not. 00:11:20
If the intent is to continue to have this be open space, I guess the real question I would have is. 00:11:22
Why do you need the property line moved? 00:11:28
My daughter is. 00:11:31
We went through a divorce last year and they're selling their house. 00:11:33
And the house is. 00:11:37
Is would be much more sellable. 00:11:39
The size of their property and all the property on it. With a three acre parcel, that's what they've always wanted. 00:11:42
Between us, we were always going to do this. 00:11:48
And now it's become immediately needful. 00:11:50
To do this. 00:11:53
So we've got a bigger property. 00:11:54
We have a smaller property. 00:11:57
And it's more sellable certainly to. 00:11:59
OK. As you can see, it'd be very difficult to sell this with a property line where it currently is. 00:12:02
Down. It's about 25 feet off the house. 00:12:06
In the middle of their driveway. 00:12:10
OK, So all right, I appreciate that. I just. 00:12:13
Like I said, I'm trying to just kind of wrap my head around the the why behind the what with it a little bit more. Sorry, I should 00:12:16
have given the background. 00:12:20
So I appreciate that. 00:12:24
Fellow commissioners, do you have any questions for the applicant? I've got a question. What year did you and your daughter 00:12:26
purchase these two parcels? 00:12:31
She bought them. 00:12:36
In I think the spring and we. 00:12:37
Got ours in 2017 so. 00:12:41
Few months apart. 00:12:43
OK. So at the time, were you aware of the zoning? 00:12:44
I'm sorry, if you're going to address the Commission, we're going to need just for the recording, yeah. 00:12:52
And if you'll just state your name, address. Thank you. 00:12:56
Yes. So I'm Jade and Alan. 00:13:01
Snow now formerly Romney. 00:13:04
And when we purchased the land originally, we purchased all four acres at once and Jim who sold us the land. 00:13:07
Always knew that our plan was to have my parents on one acre and we would take the three acres because. 00:13:14
They were older, didn't want as much land to maintain. 00:13:21
And he thought we had a good argument, though it was zoned for two, two acre lots. 00:13:24
He thought all along, since all of the homes touching. 00:13:29
Our property, except his, are all one acre lots. 00:13:33
He thought it would be easy to get it rezone so when we first purchased it he even wrote that in our CC and ours. He was like Yep 00:13:36
this can be divided. However they'll just need to go through this process. We can't build them. 00:13:43
He didn't want anymore structures. The idea was only one home with a guesthouse. 00:13:49
Or approved structure on each two acre. 00:13:54
Divide, but now it would be divided in a one and a three since we wanted more land. 00:13:58
That's that simple. So we always assumed we'd go through this process and that it would have been straightforward given its 00:14:04
adjoining one acre zoning on most sides. 00:14:09
But. 00:14:14
Yeah, here we are. 00:14:15
OK. Appreciate that backdrop and I can answer anymore. Thank you. 00:14:17
I have a question. Yeah. 00:14:21
Have you explored ways of? 00:14:22
Getting what you want without a rezone. 00:14:25
Yes. So we looked into just a lot line adjustment. 00:14:28
And why did that not work? 00:14:32
Because the whole issue was. 00:14:35
The lot line adjustment would put us in a. 00:14:38
Yes, sure. So the just doing the lot line adjustment wouldn't be approved because it would create a non conforming lot to the 00:14:44
zone. So you have to have your zone and. 00:14:50
The the lot size has to comply with that. 00:14:56
We didn't ask, we thought. 00:15:00
I can I can add just a comment here so it sounds like. 00:15:05
Possibly the previous property owner who was. 00:15:08
Facilitating the PUD. 00:15:12
That was the impression that then. 00:15:15
These two lots could do that same PUD process. 00:15:17
So that may be the better route for the applicant is to work with the neighboring property owner and do a PUD for the whole thing. 00:15:23
Because that's really the only way to make. 00:15:34
A non conforming property within a. 00:15:38
Our 187 zone. 00:15:43
So and. 00:15:51
That was what I was talking about in the staff report and some of that background history with the property. So planned unit 00:15:52
development is? 00:15:57
A PUD. It allows you to create. 00:16:02
You want to explain what specific? Yeah, so it's. 00:16:07
Instead of having, you don't have to adhere strictly to the. 00:16:12
Minimum requirements for a zone so you there's flexibility with setbacks. Property size. 00:16:17
I'm trying to think what else those are the main things. St. frontage is another one. 00:16:25
Umm in exchange for meeting the goals of a planned unit development, which is open space preservation of natural features. 00:16:30
So that type of an application was previously applied for for this area. 00:16:39
And then when that property owner wanted to sell these two lots and create these two lots. 00:16:46
Instead of continuing with the PUD process and just changing what was previously approved on that. 00:16:53
They did a. 00:17:00
Subdivision under a standard subdivision. 00:17:02
Instead of a PUD. 00:17:05
So a PUD is a conditional use permit. 00:17:07
But it's a subdivision that's paired with the conditional use. 00:17:11
And that allows for some flexibility of the underlying zone requirements. 00:17:14
Right, because you have to have a minimum area for doing a PUD, so just in the R 187 zone. 00:17:21
You have to have 6 acres. 00:17:30
So your two properties by themselves at just over 4 acres wouldn't qualify for the minimum area it would require. 00:17:33
Both of you and your neighboring property owner with I think he has seven acres currently, I believe, yeah. 00:17:43
So Jim Dreyfuss, my one question on that. 00:17:52
To two acre lots, so the four acres. 00:17:57
The year before he sold A1 acre lot that's touching us, so he broke off that vibe and and made it into five lots. 00:17:59
I mean 5. 00:18:07
Yeah. And when I was looking at the file on that like. 00:18:08
Your two lots was previously one light or is configured in a different way. 00:18:12
So it's just that instead of doing the PUD process to change it as to. 00:18:17
However, this layout was. They just said let's just do a. 00:18:24
Standard subdivision. 00:18:28
Because these two lots will create will be minimum lot size requirements and it's only a total of 5 acres which isn't the six 00:18:30
which is the minimum required amount. 00:18:34
Yes, so why would he want to work with us to do it now that he's already? Yeah, that's why I'm saying I like there's. 00:18:39
Yeah, that is. That is a potential way to address this issue in a different way, but you would have to work with. 00:18:47
Some other neighboring land owners to have enough minimum land area. 00:18:56
For a planned unit development. 00:19:00
Because I know he doesn't want to break up his existence, right? And he doesn't have to. 00:19:02
Yes, it would just be. 00:19:07
So. 00:19:10
Creative of a new PD? Yes. 00:19:12
Yes. 00:19:14
So the PUD would include it could be all of these. You can keep all these together and you just change where you want your lot 00:19:16
lines to be between the two. 00:19:20
That is the simple. 00:19:26
Answer if you can were if that property owner is willing to do that. 00:19:27
So that said. 00:19:33
So that's like. 00:19:34
That was part of that confusion when you're saying, oh, this was always the plan. This was kind of what was told to us because 00:19:36
some of that may be coming from that PUD process of, yeah, we can move things around and there's flexibility there. 00:19:44
But it would have to be flexibility. 00:19:52
Under. 00:19:54
With just the minimum zone standards, it has to be the two acres. 00:19:55
So if you can loop in and create a PUD, that's. 00:20:01
Everybody's agreeable to then. 00:20:04
That would work. That's one option. 00:20:06
The given us you're saying we also have the 500 foot thing? 00:20:11
Sorry, where are you bringing all the neighbors? 00:20:19
Yes. 00:20:25
Yes, so and we can discuss a PUD process if that's any way we can discuss, right. So I mean at this point I'm just going to jump 00:20:26
in real quick and interrupt here and I'm just going to say so staff is. 00:20:33
Outlined a very clear argument that you have to overcome on the why. 00:20:40
And they are proposing right now an alternative to trying to overcome that argument before this Commission. 00:20:45
And you want to know our why? Or you're coming up with your why. 00:20:53
Well, they've outlined it in the staff report and she went over how it doesn't meet with the zone, the technical review committee, 00:20:58
all the other aspects of it that she initiated this with. 00:21:03
And you're making a case As for why your zone should be amended in spite of staff's argument. OK. And So what I'm saying is that 00:21:07
she has presented to you an alternative? 00:21:13
Instead of trying to overcome Staff's argument of why this isn't. 00:21:19
Positive recommendation being given by city staff. There might be an alternative solution, so before we move forward with the 00:21:24
process. 00:21:28
And spend any more time, I just want to ask the applicant. 00:21:32
If you are interested in withdrawing temporarily your request and exploring that alternative. 00:21:36
Or if you would just like move forward with potentially having. 00:21:43
Negative recommendation forward to City Council. 00:21:47
I think the question then, for us is a simple one. 00:21:51
If the City Council turns us down. 00:21:54
That would not aggregate our chance to come through. 00:21:56
That's true. 00:22:00
Since it would be much more difficult. 00:22:03
To go through this process again. 00:22:05
We'd rather go to the City Council with a turndown. 00:22:07
Given the what we think is effectively the exact same result that would occur. 00:22:10
Right. Either way, exact same result. There's slightly different result. 00:22:16
We would have created a precedent of not following the general plan. 00:22:22
Is it a general platform? 00:22:27
Yes, yes. 00:22:28
Absolutely yes, it 100% does not meet with the general plan. 00:22:29
Because it is a protected zone. 00:22:36
That your property lies within. 00:22:39
And there's already a precedent of other applicants who've come before you. 00:22:41
And been denied. 00:22:46
Trying to change the zone. 00:22:48
Question I had. 00:22:50
Here with respect to. 00:22:51
The general plan. 00:22:52
I believe the general plan is. 00:22:54
Is specifically this? 00:22:55
Dustin, open space. 00:22:57
And. 00:22:59
All the previous. 00:23:01
Applications have been for. 00:23:03
Development, and they've been turned down because of development. 00:23:05
We are not. 00:23:09
Developing anything, we are going to completely continue. 00:23:10
To keep this open space and we're going to make it legal. 00:23:14
So that's. 00:23:18
In terms of the general plan, I do believe I read it. 00:23:21
It's a question of development, not open space. 00:23:23
We are actually not. 00:23:26
We're not active applying for development. 00:23:28
And that we're not changing anything in the general plan. 00:23:31
With respect to what anyone will see. 00:23:34
Ever OK? 00:23:37
Well, and if you're if you're confident in that, like I'm happy to move forward. I just wanted to pause right there because we had 00:23:38
a nice long discussion about the alternative, but if. 00:23:42
We don't want to explore that at Test time and we just want to move forward. I'm just going to ask any other commissioners if they 00:23:47
have questions for the applicant before we move to the public hearing process, then no. 00:23:51
May I make one question and then you have a couple. 00:23:56
My question is, did what I just say make sense? 00:24:00
Sure, yes. 00:24:03
That's I just wanted to. 00:24:05
Yeah, and mine was just a simple comment to say, I think. 00:24:07
For those that aren't as educated on the things that my dad has read and obviously what all of you know. 00:24:12
What has been? 00:24:18
What I've been wanting to propose is just following the fact that our driveway literally is an easement in a. 00:24:20
Of a different zone, we have to pass one anchors to drive into our house. 00:24:27
That was sold by the same person as a connection to our land. 00:24:31
The zoning is literally on. 00:24:35
Property where it becomes something different and. 00:24:38
I understand for the protection. 00:24:41
Like like my father was saying. 00:24:44
Of development of open spaces. 00:24:47
There's a reason why there's always a point where it becomes a new zone. There's always going to be a line. I understand that line 00:24:49
happens to be on our yard. 00:24:53
And I'm hoping that if we can. 00:24:57
Honor, like he said, the exact things that are meant to be protected with that. 00:25:00
That then this is essentially a lot line adjustment just following it in the legal. 00:25:04
Pathway, you know. 00:25:09
Well, perfect. Well, we'll go ahead and yeah, thank you, guys. We'll invite you to sit down. Don't go too far because we're just 00:25:11
going to open the public. 00:25:14
Hearing for this. 00:25:17
And for those that do wish to make comment on this today, tonight. 00:25:19
We ask that you state your name and address when you come to the podium and keep your remarks. 00:25:24
To three minutes or less. And if you are going after someone else that's made comments, please don't restate the same comments. 00:25:29
And with that, it looks like we have a taker. 00:25:33
Leanne Stillman, 2149 E Pheasant Way. 00:25:38
I would like to start by thanking you for serving the community this way. I think Planning Commission is a fairly tough job. I've 00:25:43
been there. 00:25:46
And I would also like to state what fabulous neighbors the Paul family is. 00:25:51
They are, truly. 00:25:56
An asset. 00:25:58
And I'm really sad half of them are leaving. 00:25:59
I just want you to imagine that you approve this. 00:26:02
And that we have 3 acres on the east and one acre on the West. 00:26:07
And I believe Rand and. 00:26:12
Jan Paul And they say we're not going to develop it. 00:26:14
But they're saying that about an acre of land they're giving up. 00:26:17
And so now think about that three acre parcel that is acknowledged. 00:26:23
Is going to be sold. 00:26:27
If I'm the buyer. 00:26:30
I'm buying 3 acres in A2 acre zone. 00:26:32
The first thing I'm going to do is come to you and say wait a minute. 00:26:36
Only need 2 acres. 00:26:40
And you've already created one acre next door. 00:26:42
Give me the acre and the development rights for this one parcel. 00:26:45
And everything that attaches to it, I get to have the same right as anybody else who has an Aquarian holiday. 00:26:49
My concern has nothing to do with the. 00:26:56
Well-intentioned. It's the fact that these aren't the people that are going to be controlling it. 00:26:59
Believe them, but they're selling it. 00:27:04
And a three acre parcel. 00:27:07
In A2 acre demand. 00:27:10
Creates a very big unknown for us. 00:27:12
Thank you for all you do for us. 00:27:16
Thank you for your comments. 00:27:18
Do we have anyone else that's interested in making comment tonight? 00:27:22
You will at the end, yes. 00:27:26
So just making sure no other public comments, nobody bursting at scenes online. I'm just kidding. You guys can't do that. 00:27:28
So with that, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing then. Well, and then we'll invite you back to come up and address any of 00:27:34
the comments made. 00:27:37
Thanks Liane for your. 00:27:46
Neighborly response to our. 00:27:50
Application. 00:27:52
To say, and I perhaps wasn't clear at the beginning. 00:27:54
We are putting an HOA on this property. 00:27:58
Homeownership. 00:28:01
A permanent homeowners agreement. 00:28:03
Between the three acre and the one acre. 00:28:05
So that there will be. 00:28:08
A permanent no build easement. 00:28:10
In the deed. 00:28:13
On that property. 00:28:14
So that the three acre parcel when they buy it. 00:28:15
They will see. 00:28:18
Permanent No build in this section. 00:28:19
Property. 00:28:23
And that's what I said at the beginning that. 00:28:32
Came out with it too fast. 00:28:34
We would be happy to say. 00:28:35
We will have a stipulation. 00:28:38
Or this agreement that there will be illegal? 00:28:40
Permanent no build easement placed on that land. 00:28:43
For any future bill. 00:28:46
Fire. Fire of that property. 00:28:47
It's legal. 00:28:49
No, Bill. 00:28:51
OK. And it's permanent, so? 00:28:53
It can't be given away. That's a legal possibility. 00:28:55
That's what we want to do because it protects our view. 00:28:58
If we end up staying on that. 00:29:01
I hope that's clear. She. 00:29:05
She's absolutely right of what could happen. 00:29:07
But not when there's a permanent. 00:29:09
Nobilities amount. 00:29:12
And. 00:29:14
OK. 00:29:19
Well, with that public hearings closed and did we have any additional questions for the applicant? 00:29:21
Address that. 00:29:26
No build easement concept and that. 00:29:28
Wouldn't a future owner? 00:29:31
Become the HOA and could simply change the rules. 00:29:33
Well, it's if it's an HOA, sure. I mean you'd have to have unity of ownership again and then if. 00:29:36
Two homes were. 00:29:42
Owned by the same entity or the same individuals, they could. 00:29:43
Eliminate the boundary and then eliminate the easement and the HOA. 00:29:47
If it's an HOA, I mean it. 00:29:52
I don't know that it, I mean, I wouldn't recommend doing it the way he's suggesting, but that's. 00:29:54
Could you put a permanent no build area on it? Yes. Are there ways to get around it? 00:29:59
And then just to contrast that with what? But you would still have the problem to overcome of. 00:30:05
You know, granting additional additional lot. 00:30:11
Just because. 00:30:14
Let's just say, for example, that. 00:30:16
You know, this was approved by the council and the rezone was done. 00:30:18
You would create a one acre lot that would be. 00:30:23
You'd have to amend the general plan and carve out that section. 00:30:27
Of the R 187. 00:30:30
In order to make that possible, you would have to do the general plan amendment. 00:30:32
That would likely also need to necessitate changing some other zone around it that's also within the R 187. 00:30:37
So that you don't create a spot zone. 00:30:43
And it would create a precedent in the holiday estates. 00:30:46
Our 187. 00:30:50
Protected zone to reduce the size down to one acre. 00:30:51
It would create that precedent and you know we talked about that in the pre meeting that. 00:30:56
You know those are the. 00:31:00
Those are the concerns that you're dealing with, right? And those are policy questions, right? And this body doesn't deal with 00:31:01
policy questions, it deals with the general. 00:31:05
Plan as it currently sits. 00:31:09
And it deals with these zones as they currently sit in the zoning map. 00:31:11
And then it makes a recommendation to the City Council and if the City Council. 00:31:15
Determines that all of those policy questions should be answered in the affirmative. 00:31:18
Then they can go ahead and make those changes. 00:31:23
But this is what? 00:31:25
We're doing what we're doing our role tonight. 00:31:27
Or I should say, you're doing your role tonight. 00:31:30
And then the City Council will do their role and create policy or. 00:31:32
Not create policy. 00:31:38
Thank you enough. And with that question, yes, Sir. 00:31:43
Staff, can you pull up the zoning map or the general plan map just to show? 00:31:45
Kind of how this leads because I'm. 00:31:49
Curious that they're saying there's a lot of acre lots around this. 00:31:51
OK, because I only see a small fraction of the front. 00:31:57
The West side of this lot. 00:32:01
Being adjacent to the one acre. 00:32:03
You could do the one that was on the first page that shows. 00:32:12
That blows it up, that. 00:32:15
Yeah, that one, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think the issue is, is that those lots that are one acre nearby are legal, non 00:32:18
conforming, True. And I'm just trying to make sure that's the case. Yeah, 'cause, yeah. 00:32:23
I think yes. 00:32:28
There's Sorry, go ahead. 00:32:30
In the R 187 there is a lot. 00:32:32
Of non conforming parcels, legal, legal, legal nonconforming. They were there when the R 187 zone was established. They were known 00:32:37
and the R 187 was acknowledging those and saying yes, we are creating legal nonconforming parcels. 00:32:46
But we don't. 00:32:55
We want to maintain a 2 acre zone. 00:32:56
If the. 00:33:00
Decision at the time was OK. There's a lot of. 00:33:03
One acre properties here and we want. 00:33:07
To have this all be one acre par. 00:33:09
Parcels that zone could have been established at. 00:33:12
That point as well. 00:33:15
But umm. 00:33:17
Where it was like the. 00:33:18
The interface of. 00:33:22
Non conforming parcels and still establishing an R187 zone. 00:33:24
That included those. 00:33:29
Non conforming parcels to the zone that was being established. 00:33:32
Is clear, but it communicates we want to retain. 00:33:37
Two acre lots in this area. So this has been a part of the council discussion that. 00:33:41
They keep the R 187. 00:33:46
Yeah. And regardless of the underlying lot sizes that are there, yeah, and that. 00:33:50
I looked at a study in 2005 of the non conforming lots in the R 187 zone. 00:33:55
But it's always been maintained as we want to keep this as our 187 even with those non conforming parcels. 00:34:02
I mean, I appreciate the applicants discussion and the intent of what they're trying to do. 00:34:10
I always worry that when you start to. 00:34:15
Do something like this that it starts to set. 00:34:17
And a difficult precedent that. 00:34:20
Starts to have future consequences by. 00:34:23
Encroaching into the two acre zoning with one acre. 00:34:27
And suddenly. 00:34:31
Neighbors in the future are just going to have to are doing the same thing. 00:34:32
And I don't want the underintended consequence of one action like this to create that type of thing, so. 00:34:36
I'm concerned about that. 00:34:42
Other Commissioner questions for staff or counsel on this. 00:34:47
Other Commissioner comments. 00:34:51
I just want to make sure that I'm understanding. 00:34:54
That they built on the parcels. 00:34:57
So they purchased the parcels knowing that they were two acres. 00:35:00
Then they built the homes and the driveway. 00:35:04
With the intent. 00:35:07
Of changing the property line after the building took place. 00:35:09
Be using it the way we happen, which is. 00:35:17
OK. So there was never like an intention to sell or anything. I understand that. So you didn't think that it would ever be? 00:35:24
An issue having. 00:35:30
Only a 20 foot. 00:35:32
Sorry if you're addressing the applicant, we need the applicant to come back up to the podium please. 00:35:33
It makes minutes a lot easier when. Thank you for that question. 00:35:40
Thanks for that question. 00:35:43
It was discussed. 00:35:45
With Jim Dreyfus, when he sold the land to us, we said we only want one acre. 00:35:47
1/3 he said. Well, we can. 00:35:52
We can do that. That's not a problem. So it's actually in the CC and ours. 00:35:54
We can split it down. 00:35:59
We didn't think through the. 00:36:01
Process of actually having to rezone the. 00:36:03
I think he was thinking it's his PUD. 00:36:07
You know he can do what he wants. 00:36:10
Right. That's probably what happened. Now that I'm I'm wondering if there's specific details in your CC and Rs about that process? 00:36:12
Sounds like when you talk to Jim. 00:36:20
To answer straightforward, though, we bought the four acres altogether. 00:36:23
And I was trying to develop a family compound. 00:36:27
And so it was, these are 4 acres. We need a lot of land. We want a big property. We wanted multiple homes. And then. 00:36:31
Looked into it was like oh this is really only for two homes. 00:36:38
So originally I thought of even doing 3. 00:36:41
But it was like, OK, it's not going to allow three, this is 2, but we could divide it. So there's a smaller lot for my parents in 00:36:44
a larger lot for me. 00:36:47
That was our intention. 00:36:51
You know, and so, yeah, we started building. 00:36:52
With that intention. 00:36:55
Looks to me like the fellow who sell to us who was a great guy. 00:36:57
Was thinking in terms of DVD. He would have said, you know, you're going to have to rezone this. 00:37:01
Yeah. And that's kind of what as you were talking about the story in history there was like, OK, putting the pieces together and I 00:37:05
didn't run into that until I was researching the property and. 00:37:10
Past reasons. 00:37:16
Kind of what was established there so. 00:37:18
I think that there's there is a. 00:37:20
Forward it just takes a different route and some coordination and it wouldn't cause the problem here. 00:37:22
You're thinking about it. 00:37:29
They would went with the PUD apparent. 00:37:30
And it's not a rezoning. 00:37:32
It's not right. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm just saying that. 00:37:33
The way you're, yeah. 00:37:37
Approaching this, that does create a problem. 00:37:39
Even if it's open space, I see your point. Yeah, because it creates an underlying. 00:37:43
Type of belief that this can encroach further and further. 00:37:49
And I think it goes against what the city's ultimate. 00:37:53
Goal was to preserve this area. 00:37:56
And as soon as you start nibbling pieces out, all of a sudden fractures where there is a clear divining a dividing line. 00:37:59
Of which is one acre versus 2 acre. 00:38:06
And that becomes very blurred. 00:38:10
And me, as a part of the Planning Commission, don't want to have that happen. 00:38:12
So that's why I'm very cautious when we're looking at something like this. 00:38:16
I appreciate. 00:38:20
The situation you're in and what you're trying to do and. 00:38:21
Logically, that makes perfect sense, and maybe illogically some of the things we have to deal with. 00:38:25
Is this so? 00:38:31
Were there any other further questions for the applicant? Whether? 00:38:33
You're still up at the podium. 00:38:36
No, OK, we'll have him just a town then. Thank you so much. 00:38:37
All right, Commissioners, further discussion on this then. 00:38:41
Everybody got all their answers, know where they're going. 00:38:45
Then I will invite and entertain any motion anybody's ready to make. 00:38:48
This is Commissioner Prince. 00:38:52
I motion to forward a negative recommendation to the City Council. 00:38:54
On the application by C Randall Paul to amend holiday zoning map for 2.06 acres of land located at 2232 E Pheasant Way. 00:38:59
From R187 to R143. 00:39:08
Based upon the following findings that are listed in the staff report, particularly. 00:39:12
That this. 00:39:17
Would go against the general plan. 00:39:19
And cause a reduction in lot size that could lead to future. 00:39:22
Development. 00:39:28
In the future. 00:39:29
This is Commissioner Barrett. I'll second it. 00:39:31
All right, we have a motion in a second. We'll go ahead and call for a vote. We'll start down here. Commissioner Cunningham. Hi, 00:39:33
Mr. Bill Tinsky. Aye. Mr. Flaunt. Aye. 00:39:37
Commissioner Prince Aye, Commissioner Barrett. 00:39:41
And Chair Roach votes aye. So with that, we will forward a negative recommendation to City Council and. 00:39:43
Invite you to. 00:39:49
Speak with them further about it and thank you very much for. 00:39:51
Speaking with us tonight. 00:39:54
With that, we will move into the second item on our agenda, which is the approval of minutes. We have to do these one at a time. 00:39:56
So do we have to get a second on each one of these? 00:40:05
We do OK so. 00:40:08
With that, we decided that on the. 00:40:11
Approval of minutes for 11/19 that it was Commissioner Barrett that filled in the blank, is that right? 00:40:14
Just blank. I'm always trying. 00:40:20
All right, fair enough. So with that, is there any other amendments needed on that in those minutes? 00:40:24
And would someone care to make a motion on that? 00:40:30
Commissioner Prince, I'll motion that we approve the minutes from. 00:40:32
Whatever date we're talking about. 00:40:37
11:19, 11/19/24. 00:40:38
I'll second that motion. All right, and we have a second can all in favor say aye, aye, OK, perfect. That one worked. All right, 00:40:42
so we'll do it again on 12/2. Any adjustments? 00:40:47
Motion. 00:40:52
Well, I make the motion that we approve the minutes from 12:00 to. 00:40:56
I'll second, all right. Font made the motion, and Baron seconded. All in favor say aye aye. 00:41:00
And then on the third list of minutes from January 7th. 00:41:06
Any adjustments there? 00:41:11
Motion, I recommend approval of that. 00:41:14
Mr. Barrett makes motion. 00:41:16
Commissioner, font seconds all in favor, aye? 00:41:18
And with that, that is the totality of our agenda and I move to adjourn. All in favor say aye. 00:41:21
Done and done. Thank you very much. 00:41:28
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All right, Well, good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission, February 4th, 2025. 00:00:00
We have all commissioners in attendance, less Commissioner Gong, who sent her regrets. 00:00:07
And we have. 00:00:11
Action-packed agenda of two items today with. 00:00:13
Public hearing on his own amendment. 00:00:17
And then an action item for approval of minutes. And I have asked Vice Chair, Commissioner Prince if she would read for us. 00:00:20
The notice we give to all members of the public that attend this meeting. 00:00:28
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen board whose function is to review land use plans and other special 00:00:32
studies. 00:00:36
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map and ordinance changes. 00:00:40
And approve conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:00:45
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:00:49
Rather. 00:00:52
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except at publicly noticed meetings. 00:00:56
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location, the nature of the neighborhood. 00:01:00
Existing structures and uses related to the proposed changes are noted. 00:01:06
Decisions are based on observations, recommendations from the professional planning staff. 00:01:11
The city's general plan, zoning ordinance and other reports. 00:01:16
By all verbal and written comments and by evidence submitted, all of which are part of the public record. 00:01:20
Thank you very much. 00:01:27
And with that, we will roll into our first item on the agenda, which is the zone map amendment for Rezone and we will ask city 00:01:30
staff. 00:01:36
If they will give us an overview of this item. 00:01:41
Sorry, I forgot to turn on the cameras. 00:01:48
Let me get that set and then I will. 00:01:52
I see the blue light I think we're on. 00:01:57
Sorry for the delay. 00:02:01
All right. 00:02:35
Just that last item, Cameras. 00:02:47
For it all right. So this application is for a zone map amendment. 00:02:49
For the property located at 2232 E Pheasant Way. 00:02:56
In the R 187 zone and the request is to rezone from R187 with A2 acre minimum lot size. 00:03:01
To our 1:43. 00:03:09
The intent of the rezone is to reduce the land area required to facilitate. 00:03:15
A property line shift between two neighboring properties. 00:03:23
Just a little background on the area, this is the Estates area and in the general plan for holiday. 00:03:27
This is identified as country estates protected. 00:03:36
The area is largely serviced by private lanes, has a dense mature tree canopy and large parcels. 00:03:40
When the city incorporated in 1999, there was an intentional zoning pattern where. 00:03:48
Areas. 00:03:57
Designated with a zone with a minimum lot size larger than even some of the lots. So there is a lot of non conforming lots 00:04:00
created. 00:04:03
When the city was incorporated. 00:04:07
The intent of that was. 00:04:09
To prevent mass subdividing of property. 00:04:12
Was a large part of the reason for incorporating from Salt Lake County. 00:04:16
To be able to control that subdivision of land. 00:04:20
Some more contextual background specific to this property and some neighbors. 00:04:26
In 2007. 00:04:33
Planned unit development was approved for. 00:04:35
5 units on 15.75 acres of land. 00:04:39
So that was the property that was directly to the South and then the two lots that. 00:04:44
Were later subdivided. 00:04:50
And the PUD wasn't It was approved but wasn't ever recorded. 00:04:52
And the landowner there eventually wanted to create 2 lots for sale, and that's when these two lots were created, just under a 00:04:56
standard subdivision process instead of the planned unit development process. So the subdivision was created with those two lots, 00:05:04
each of them meeting the zone requirements of having two acres of land per Watt. 00:05:11
Within the general plan. 00:05:20
Country estates protected. The intent of that designation is to preserve existing large lot development patterns. 00:05:23
It calls out the mature tree canopy and ambiance created by a state type development on private lanes as being. 00:05:32
Protected features within that country's estates area. 00:05:40
Guidance there is that new development can be appropriate, appropriately accommodated. 00:05:45
Through utilizing unclaimed density by and not. 00:05:51
Or let's see by subdivision and not by rezones. 00:05:55
So that's where you'll see like shifting of lot areas around. 00:05:59
And potentially new subdivisions created that way or from sub fighting larger parcels like the original 15 acre parcel. 00:06:03
Was a subdivision. New lots were created that way with that two acre standard. 00:06:12
The intent of that two acre standard was to preserve a lot of open space. 00:06:19
In our work meeting, we looked at lot coverage areas. 00:06:23
But that's a concern of the areas. 00:06:27
How much structure will cover a? 00:06:29
A particular parcel and basing that on percentage sizes so that there is a preservation of. 00:06:33
Open space on larger bots. 00:06:39
The analysis for the rezone was included in the staff report with rezone approval standards. 00:06:45
And the role of the Planning Commission tonight is then to make a recommendation to the City Council and. 00:06:53
I can have the applicant come up her and she can invite him. 00:07:00
OK. Well, thank you very much for that. And I think the the the bar has been set on what needs to be covered. 00:07:02
And we would love to hear from the applicant and. 00:07:10
Invite them up now. 00:07:16
Thank you for hearing this. 00:07:23
Application tonight. 00:07:25
I was on the. 00:07:27
Master plan committee. 00:07:28
Chairman, actually for the City of Highland, I just calculated 32 years ago. 00:07:30
And I admire master planning, so I understand what. 00:07:36
The city has tried to do and we're very happy that you're. 00:07:41
Holding to. 00:07:44
The standards. 00:07:45
I'm going to. 00:07:46
My name, by the way, is Randall Paul. 00:07:49
My wife and I live at 2232 Pheasant Way. 00:07:51
I don't know if you've seen this, but this picture is worth 1000 words so I'm going to. 00:07:55
Just give you these. 00:08:00
This is the current zoning. You'll see where the zoning. 00:08:06
The property line goes down. 00:08:09
Middle of the driveway. 00:08:13
The property that. 00:08:15
My daughter. 00:08:17
Thank you. And we're asking to move that property. 00:08:19
And I think we might have an image of that up on the TV as well. 00:08:25
That that to make you. 00:08:29
Property line to a three acre. One acre. 00:08:37
Location her, she has the estate, we have a smaller. 00:08:41
Development there and we bought it. 00:08:45
At the same time and we were going to subdivide it and. 00:08:47
Not subdivided. We thought we were only going to make a property line shift and we found we had to go through this process. 00:08:51
So. 00:08:57
I've looked into. 00:08:59
The situation and I think you'll see. 00:09:01
That we've just heard what the general plan is for this area. 00:09:04
And that this. 00:09:08
Will not change any. 00:09:10
Building whatsoever, we're not planning on changing anything. 00:09:12
Other than moving. 00:09:16
The property line to a three acre. 00:09:18
One acre ownership. 00:09:20
So the trees are there. 00:09:24
There will be no new development. 00:09:27
We're not asking for that. 00:09:29
In fact, if you'll see the center portion. 00:09:30
No build area. 00:09:37
Seriously. 00:09:40
In other words, either. 00:09:42
We would not want anyone to. 00:09:44
Build on that property, come in years from now and say, well we've got an acre now, we've got 3 acres, we're going to. 00:09:46
Cut down one acre. 00:09:52
We'll build on it. 00:09:54
We will make a permanent easement on that ourselves because we wouldn't want that to happen either, right? 00:09:56
Don't want our view of the mountain to be blocked by a house right in our front yard? 00:10:02
So there are two issues that I've looked at and I. 00:10:06
From a planning standpoint. 00:10:09
I really believe. 00:10:11
That if you wanted to stipulate that we put a permanent no build easement. 00:10:13
On the. 00:10:19
The three acre portion. 00:10:20
That leaves an acre in front. We'd be glad to do that, right? 00:10:22
If you're concerned that someone might come in later and say, oh, we've got 3 acres. 00:10:25
Now we'll cut it down to two. 00:10:30
And give someone the land that would be. 00:10:32
I think they'd be crazy, but. 00:10:35
You know they'd say well. 00:10:38
To make money will. 00:10:40
We'll try to sell an acre off and yes, that'll cut right through the middle of our driveway. 00:10:43
In other words, it's to me it's not even a realistic option. 00:10:48
But I'm trying to. 00:10:52
Face any criticism of our plan. 00:10:54
That somehow it would hurt the city in any way. 00:10:57
So our intent is simply to move the property line. 00:11:02
OK, well, I appreciate the narrative and I'm going to ask my fellow commissioners if they have any questions for you. The 1st I 00:11:06
just. 00:11:10
I want to make sure I understand because you kind of talked around some things there, but. 00:11:15
If the intent is not. 00:11:20
If the intent is to continue to have this be open space, I guess the real question I would have is. 00:11:22
Why do you need the property line moved? 00:11:28
My daughter is. 00:11:31
We went through a divorce last year and they're selling their house. 00:11:33
And the house is. 00:11:37
Is would be much more sellable. 00:11:39
The size of their property and all the property on it. With a three acre parcel, that's what they've always wanted. 00:11:42
Between us, we were always going to do this. 00:11:48
And now it's become immediately needful. 00:11:50
To do this. 00:11:53
So we've got a bigger property. 00:11:54
We have a smaller property. 00:11:57
And it's more sellable certainly to. 00:11:59
OK. As you can see, it'd be very difficult to sell this with a property line where it currently is. 00:12:02
Down. It's about 25 feet off the house. 00:12:06
In the middle of their driveway. 00:12:10
OK, So all right, I appreciate that. I just. 00:12:13
Like I said, I'm trying to just kind of wrap my head around the the why behind the what with it a little bit more. Sorry, I should 00:12:16
have given the background. 00:12:20
So I appreciate that. 00:12:24
Fellow commissioners, do you have any questions for the applicant? I've got a question. What year did you and your daughter 00:12:26
purchase these two parcels? 00:12:31
She bought them. 00:12:36
In I think the spring and we. 00:12:37
Got ours in 2017 so. 00:12:41
Few months apart. 00:12:43
OK. So at the time, were you aware of the zoning? 00:12:44
I'm sorry, if you're going to address the Commission, we're going to need just for the recording, yeah. 00:12:52
And if you'll just state your name, address. Thank you. 00:12:56
Yes. So I'm Jade and Alan. 00:13:01
Snow now formerly Romney. 00:13:04
And when we purchased the land originally, we purchased all four acres at once and Jim who sold us the land. 00:13:07
Always knew that our plan was to have my parents on one acre and we would take the three acres because. 00:13:14
They were older, didn't want as much land to maintain. 00:13:21
And he thought we had a good argument, though it was zoned for two, two acre lots. 00:13:24
He thought all along, since all of the homes touching. 00:13:29
Our property, except his, are all one acre lots. 00:13:33
He thought it would be easy to get it rezone so when we first purchased it he even wrote that in our CC and ours. He was like Yep 00:13:36
this can be divided. However they'll just need to go through this process. We can't build them. 00:13:43
He didn't want anymore structures. The idea was only one home with a guesthouse. 00:13:49
Or approved structure on each two acre. 00:13:54
Divide, but now it would be divided in a one and a three since we wanted more land. 00:13:58
That's that simple. So we always assumed we'd go through this process and that it would have been straightforward given its 00:14:04
adjoining one acre zoning on most sides. 00:14:09
But. 00:14:14
Yeah, here we are. 00:14:15
OK. Appreciate that backdrop and I can answer anymore. Thank you. 00:14:17
I have a question. Yeah. 00:14:21
Have you explored ways of? 00:14:22
Getting what you want without a rezone. 00:14:25
Yes. So we looked into just a lot line adjustment. 00:14:28
And why did that not work? 00:14:32
Because the whole issue was. 00:14:35
The lot line adjustment would put us in a. 00:14:38
Yes, sure. So the just doing the lot line adjustment wouldn't be approved because it would create a non conforming lot to the 00:14:44
zone. So you have to have your zone and. 00:14:50
The the lot size has to comply with that. 00:14:56
We didn't ask, we thought. 00:15:00
I can I can add just a comment here so it sounds like. 00:15:05
Possibly the previous property owner who was. 00:15:08
Facilitating the PUD. 00:15:12
That was the impression that then. 00:15:15
These two lots could do that same PUD process. 00:15:17
So that may be the better route for the applicant is to work with the neighboring property owner and do a PUD for the whole thing. 00:15:23
Because that's really the only way to make. 00:15:34
A non conforming property within a. 00:15:38
Our 187 zone. 00:15:43
So and. 00:15:51
That was what I was talking about in the staff report and some of that background history with the property. So planned unit 00:15:52
development is? 00:15:57
A PUD. It allows you to create. 00:16:02
You want to explain what specific? Yeah, so it's. 00:16:07
Instead of having, you don't have to adhere strictly to the. 00:16:12
Minimum requirements for a zone so you there's flexibility with setbacks. Property size. 00:16:17
I'm trying to think what else those are the main things. St. frontage is another one. 00:16:25
Umm in exchange for meeting the goals of a planned unit development, which is open space preservation of natural features. 00:16:30
So that type of an application was previously applied for for this area. 00:16:39
And then when that property owner wanted to sell these two lots and create these two lots. 00:16:46
Instead of continuing with the PUD process and just changing what was previously approved on that. 00:16:53
They did a. 00:17:00
Subdivision under a standard subdivision. 00:17:02
Instead of a PUD. 00:17:05
So a PUD is a conditional use permit. 00:17:07
But it's a subdivision that's paired with the conditional use. 00:17:11
And that allows for some flexibility of the underlying zone requirements. 00:17:14
Right, because you have to have a minimum area for doing a PUD, so just in the R 187 zone. 00:17:21
You have to have 6 acres. 00:17:30
So your two properties by themselves at just over 4 acres wouldn't qualify for the minimum area it would require. 00:17:33
Both of you and your neighboring property owner with I think he has seven acres currently, I believe, yeah. 00:17:43
So Jim Dreyfuss, my one question on that. 00:17:52
To two acre lots, so the four acres. 00:17:57
The year before he sold A1 acre lot that's touching us, so he broke off that vibe and and made it into five lots. 00:17:59
I mean 5. 00:18:07
Yeah. And when I was looking at the file on that like. 00:18:08
Your two lots was previously one light or is configured in a different way. 00:18:12
So it's just that instead of doing the PUD process to change it as to. 00:18:17
However, this layout was. They just said let's just do a. 00:18:24
Standard subdivision. 00:18:28
Because these two lots will create will be minimum lot size requirements and it's only a total of 5 acres which isn't the six 00:18:30
which is the minimum required amount. 00:18:34
Yes, so why would he want to work with us to do it now that he's already? Yeah, that's why I'm saying I like there's. 00:18:39
Yeah, that is. That is a potential way to address this issue in a different way, but you would have to work with. 00:18:47
Some other neighboring land owners to have enough minimum land area. 00:18:56
For a planned unit development. 00:19:00
Because I know he doesn't want to break up his existence, right? And he doesn't have to. 00:19:02
Yes, it would just be. 00:19:07
So. 00:19:10
Creative of a new PD? Yes. 00:19:12
Yes. 00:19:14
So the PUD would include it could be all of these. You can keep all these together and you just change where you want your lot 00:19:16
lines to be between the two. 00:19:20
That is the simple. 00:19:26
Answer if you can were if that property owner is willing to do that. 00:19:27
So that said. 00:19:33
So that's like. 00:19:34
That was part of that confusion when you're saying, oh, this was always the plan. This was kind of what was told to us because 00:19:36
some of that may be coming from that PUD process of, yeah, we can move things around and there's flexibility there. 00:19:44
But it would have to be flexibility. 00:19:52
Under. 00:19:54
With just the minimum zone standards, it has to be the two acres. 00:19:55
So if you can loop in and create a PUD, that's. 00:20:01
Everybody's agreeable to then. 00:20:04
That would work. That's one option. 00:20:06
The given us you're saying we also have the 500 foot thing? 00:20:11
Sorry, where are you bringing all the neighbors? 00:20:19
Yes. 00:20:25
Yes, so and we can discuss a PUD process if that's any way we can discuss, right. So I mean at this point I'm just going to jump 00:20:26
in real quick and interrupt here and I'm just going to say so staff is. 00:20:33
Outlined a very clear argument that you have to overcome on the why. 00:20:40
And they are proposing right now an alternative to trying to overcome that argument before this Commission. 00:20:45
And you want to know our why? Or you're coming up with your why. 00:20:53
Well, they've outlined it in the staff report and she went over how it doesn't meet with the zone, the technical review committee, 00:20:58
all the other aspects of it that she initiated this with. 00:21:03
And you're making a case As for why your zone should be amended in spite of staff's argument. OK. And So what I'm saying is that 00:21:07
she has presented to you an alternative? 00:21:13
Instead of trying to overcome Staff's argument of why this isn't. 00:21:19
Positive recommendation being given by city staff. There might be an alternative solution, so before we move forward with the 00:21:24
process. 00:21:28
And spend any more time, I just want to ask the applicant. 00:21:32
If you are interested in withdrawing temporarily your request and exploring that alternative. 00:21:36
Or if you would just like move forward with potentially having. 00:21:43
Negative recommendation forward to City Council. 00:21:47
I think the question then, for us is a simple one. 00:21:51
If the City Council turns us down. 00:21:54
That would not aggregate our chance to come through. 00:21:56
That's true. 00:22:00
Since it would be much more difficult. 00:22:03
To go through this process again. 00:22:05
We'd rather go to the City Council with a turndown. 00:22:07
Given the what we think is effectively the exact same result that would occur. 00:22:10
Right. Either way, exact same result. There's slightly different result. 00:22:16
We would have created a precedent of not following the general plan. 00:22:22
Is it a general platform? 00:22:27
Yes, yes. 00:22:28
Absolutely yes, it 100% does not meet with the general plan. 00:22:29
Because it is a protected zone. 00:22:36
That your property lies within. 00:22:39
And there's already a precedent of other applicants who've come before you. 00:22:41
And been denied. 00:22:46
Trying to change the zone. 00:22:48
Question I had. 00:22:50
Here with respect to. 00:22:51
The general plan. 00:22:52
I believe the general plan is. 00:22:54
Is specifically this? 00:22:55
Dustin, open space. 00:22:57
And. 00:22:59
All the previous. 00:23:01
Applications have been for. 00:23:03
Development, and they've been turned down because of development. 00:23:05
We are not. 00:23:09
Developing anything, we are going to completely continue. 00:23:10
To keep this open space and we're going to make it legal. 00:23:14
So that's. 00:23:18
In terms of the general plan, I do believe I read it. 00:23:21
It's a question of development, not open space. 00:23:23
We are actually not. 00:23:26
We're not active applying for development. 00:23:28
And that we're not changing anything in the general plan. 00:23:31
With respect to what anyone will see. 00:23:34
Ever OK? 00:23:37
Well, and if you're if you're confident in that, like I'm happy to move forward. I just wanted to pause right there because we had 00:23:38
a nice long discussion about the alternative, but if. 00:23:42
We don't want to explore that at Test time and we just want to move forward. I'm just going to ask any other commissioners if they 00:23:47
have questions for the applicant before we move to the public hearing process, then no. 00:23:51
May I make one question and then you have a couple. 00:23:56
My question is, did what I just say make sense? 00:24:00
Sure, yes. 00:24:03
That's I just wanted to. 00:24:05
Yeah, and mine was just a simple comment to say, I think. 00:24:07
For those that aren't as educated on the things that my dad has read and obviously what all of you know. 00:24:12
What has been? 00:24:18
What I've been wanting to propose is just following the fact that our driveway literally is an easement in a. 00:24:20
Of a different zone, we have to pass one anchors to drive into our house. 00:24:27
That was sold by the same person as a connection to our land. 00:24:31
The zoning is literally on. 00:24:35
Property where it becomes something different and. 00:24:38
I understand for the protection. 00:24:41
Like like my father was saying. 00:24:44
Of development of open spaces. 00:24:47
There's a reason why there's always a point where it becomes a new zone. There's always going to be a line. I understand that line 00:24:49
happens to be on our yard. 00:24:53
And I'm hoping that if we can. 00:24:57
Honor, like he said, the exact things that are meant to be protected with that. 00:25:00
That then this is essentially a lot line adjustment just following it in the legal. 00:25:04
Pathway, you know. 00:25:09
Well, perfect. Well, we'll go ahead and yeah, thank you, guys. We'll invite you to sit down. Don't go too far because we're just 00:25:11
going to open the public. 00:25:14
Hearing for this. 00:25:17
And for those that do wish to make comment on this today, tonight. 00:25:19
We ask that you state your name and address when you come to the podium and keep your remarks. 00:25:24
To three minutes or less. And if you are going after someone else that's made comments, please don't restate the same comments. 00:25:29
And with that, it looks like we have a taker. 00:25:33
Leanne Stillman, 2149 E Pheasant Way. 00:25:38
I would like to start by thanking you for serving the community this way. I think Planning Commission is a fairly tough job. I've 00:25:43
been there. 00:25:46
And I would also like to state what fabulous neighbors the Paul family is. 00:25:51
They are, truly. 00:25:56
An asset. 00:25:58
And I'm really sad half of them are leaving. 00:25:59
I just want you to imagine that you approve this. 00:26:02
And that we have 3 acres on the east and one acre on the West. 00:26:07
And I believe Rand and. 00:26:12
Jan Paul And they say we're not going to develop it. 00:26:14
But they're saying that about an acre of land they're giving up. 00:26:17
And so now think about that three acre parcel that is acknowledged. 00:26:23
Is going to be sold. 00:26:27
If I'm the buyer. 00:26:30
I'm buying 3 acres in A2 acre zone. 00:26:32
The first thing I'm going to do is come to you and say wait a minute. 00:26:36
Only need 2 acres. 00:26:40
And you've already created one acre next door. 00:26:42
Give me the acre and the development rights for this one parcel. 00:26:45
And everything that attaches to it, I get to have the same right as anybody else who has an Aquarian holiday. 00:26:49
My concern has nothing to do with the. 00:26:56
Well-intentioned. It's the fact that these aren't the people that are going to be controlling it. 00:26:59
Believe them, but they're selling it. 00:27:04
And a three acre parcel. 00:27:07
In A2 acre demand. 00:27:10
Creates a very big unknown for us. 00:27:12
Thank you for all you do for us. 00:27:16
Thank you for your comments. 00:27:18
Do we have anyone else that's interested in making comment tonight? 00:27:22
You will at the end, yes. 00:27:26
So just making sure no other public comments, nobody bursting at scenes online. I'm just kidding. You guys can't do that. 00:27:28
So with that, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing then. Well, and then we'll invite you back to come up and address any of 00:27:34
the comments made. 00:27:37
Thanks Liane for your. 00:27:46
Neighborly response to our. 00:27:50
Application. 00:27:52
To say, and I perhaps wasn't clear at the beginning. 00:27:54
We are putting an HOA on this property. 00:27:58
Homeownership. 00:28:01
A permanent homeowners agreement. 00:28:03
Between the three acre and the one acre. 00:28:05
So that there will be. 00:28:08
A permanent no build easement. 00:28:10
In the deed. 00:28:13
On that property. 00:28:14
So that the three acre parcel when they buy it. 00:28:15
They will see. 00:28:18
Permanent No build in this section. 00:28:19
Property. 00:28:23
And that's what I said at the beginning that. 00:28:32
Came out with it too fast. 00:28:34
We would be happy to say. 00:28:35
We will have a stipulation. 00:28:38
Or this agreement that there will be illegal? 00:28:40
Permanent no build easement placed on that land. 00:28:43
For any future bill. 00:28:46
Fire. Fire of that property. 00:28:47
It's legal. 00:28:49
No, Bill. 00:28:51
OK. And it's permanent, so? 00:28:53
It can't be given away. That's a legal possibility. 00:28:55
That's what we want to do because it protects our view. 00:28:58
If we end up staying on that. 00:29:01
I hope that's clear. She. 00:29:05
She's absolutely right of what could happen. 00:29:07
But not when there's a permanent. 00:29:09
Nobilities amount. 00:29:12
And. 00:29:14
OK. 00:29:19
Well, with that public hearings closed and did we have any additional questions for the applicant? 00:29:21
Address that. 00:29:26
No build easement concept and that. 00:29:28
Wouldn't a future owner? 00:29:31
Become the HOA and could simply change the rules. 00:29:33
Well, it's if it's an HOA, sure. I mean you'd have to have unity of ownership again and then if. 00:29:36
Two homes were. 00:29:42
Owned by the same entity or the same individuals, they could. 00:29:43
Eliminate the boundary and then eliminate the easement and the HOA. 00:29:47
If it's an HOA, I mean it. 00:29:52
I don't know that it, I mean, I wouldn't recommend doing it the way he's suggesting, but that's. 00:29:54
Could you put a permanent no build area on it? Yes. Are there ways to get around it? 00:29:59
And then just to contrast that with what? But you would still have the problem to overcome of. 00:30:05
You know, granting additional additional lot. 00:30:11
Just because. 00:30:14
Let's just say, for example, that. 00:30:16
You know, this was approved by the council and the rezone was done. 00:30:18
You would create a one acre lot that would be. 00:30:23
You'd have to amend the general plan and carve out that section. 00:30:27
Of the R 187. 00:30:30
In order to make that possible, you would have to do the general plan amendment. 00:30:32
That would likely also need to necessitate changing some other zone around it that's also within the R 187. 00:30:37
So that you don't create a spot zone. 00:30:43
And it would create a precedent in the holiday estates. 00:30:46
Our 187. 00:30:50
Protected zone to reduce the size down to one acre. 00:30:51
It would create that precedent and you know we talked about that in the pre meeting that. 00:30:56
You know those are the. 00:31:00
Those are the concerns that you're dealing with, right? And those are policy questions, right? And this body doesn't deal with 00:31:01
policy questions, it deals with the general. 00:31:05
Plan as it currently sits. 00:31:09
And it deals with these zones as they currently sit in the zoning map. 00:31:11
And then it makes a recommendation to the City Council and if the City Council. 00:31:15
Determines that all of those policy questions should be answered in the affirmative. 00:31:18
Then they can go ahead and make those changes. 00:31:23
But this is what? 00:31:25
We're doing what we're doing our role tonight. 00:31:27
Or I should say, you're doing your role tonight. 00:31:30
And then the City Council will do their role and create policy or. 00:31:32
Not create policy. 00:31:38
Thank you enough. And with that question, yes, Sir. 00:31:43
Staff, can you pull up the zoning map or the general plan map just to show? 00:31:45
Kind of how this leads because I'm. 00:31:49
Curious that they're saying there's a lot of acre lots around this. 00:31:51
OK, because I only see a small fraction of the front. 00:31:57
The West side of this lot. 00:32:01
Being adjacent to the one acre. 00:32:03
You could do the one that was on the first page that shows. 00:32:12
That blows it up, that. 00:32:15
Yeah, that one, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think the issue is, is that those lots that are one acre nearby are legal, non 00:32:18
conforming, True. And I'm just trying to make sure that's the case. Yeah, 'cause, yeah. 00:32:23
I think yes. 00:32:28
There's Sorry, go ahead. 00:32:30
In the R 187 there is a lot. 00:32:32
Of non conforming parcels, legal, legal, legal nonconforming. They were there when the R 187 zone was established. They were known 00:32:37
and the R 187 was acknowledging those and saying yes, we are creating legal nonconforming parcels. 00:32:46
But we don't. 00:32:55
We want to maintain a 2 acre zone. 00:32:56
If the. 00:33:00
Decision at the time was OK. There's a lot of. 00:33:03
One acre properties here and we want. 00:33:07
To have this all be one acre par. 00:33:09
Parcels that zone could have been established at. 00:33:12
That point as well. 00:33:15
But umm. 00:33:17
Where it was like the. 00:33:18
The interface of. 00:33:22
Non conforming parcels and still establishing an R187 zone. 00:33:24
That included those. 00:33:29
Non conforming parcels to the zone that was being established. 00:33:32
Is clear, but it communicates we want to retain. 00:33:37
Two acre lots in this area. So this has been a part of the council discussion that. 00:33:41
They keep the R 187. 00:33:46
Yeah. And regardless of the underlying lot sizes that are there, yeah, and that. 00:33:50
I looked at a study in 2005 of the non conforming lots in the R 187 zone. 00:33:55
But it's always been maintained as we want to keep this as our 187 even with those non conforming parcels. 00:34:02
I mean, I appreciate the applicants discussion and the intent of what they're trying to do. 00:34:10
I always worry that when you start to. 00:34:15
Do something like this that it starts to set. 00:34:17
And a difficult precedent that. 00:34:20
Starts to have future consequences by. 00:34:23
Encroaching into the two acre zoning with one acre. 00:34:27
And suddenly. 00:34:31
Neighbors in the future are just going to have to are doing the same thing. 00:34:32
And I don't want the underintended consequence of one action like this to create that type of thing, so. 00:34:36
I'm concerned about that. 00:34:42
Other Commissioner questions for staff or counsel on this. 00:34:47
Other Commissioner comments. 00:34:51
I just want to make sure that I'm understanding. 00:34:54
That they built on the parcels. 00:34:57
So they purchased the parcels knowing that they were two acres. 00:35:00
Then they built the homes and the driveway. 00:35:04
With the intent. 00:35:07
Of changing the property line after the building took place. 00:35:09
Be using it the way we happen, which is. 00:35:17
OK. So there was never like an intention to sell or anything. I understand that. So you didn't think that it would ever be? 00:35:24
An issue having. 00:35:30
Only a 20 foot. 00:35:32
Sorry if you're addressing the applicant, we need the applicant to come back up to the podium please. 00:35:33
It makes minutes a lot easier when. Thank you for that question. 00:35:40
Thanks for that question. 00:35:43
It was discussed. 00:35:45
With Jim Dreyfus, when he sold the land to us, we said we only want one acre. 00:35:47
1/3 he said. Well, we can. 00:35:52
We can do that. That's not a problem. So it's actually in the CC and ours. 00:35:54
We can split it down. 00:35:59
We didn't think through the. 00:36:01
Process of actually having to rezone the. 00:36:03
I think he was thinking it's his PUD. 00:36:07
You know he can do what he wants. 00:36:10
Right. That's probably what happened. Now that I'm I'm wondering if there's specific details in your CC and Rs about that process? 00:36:12
Sounds like when you talk to Jim. 00:36:20
To answer straightforward, though, we bought the four acres altogether. 00:36:23
And I was trying to develop a family compound. 00:36:27
And so it was, these are 4 acres. We need a lot of land. We want a big property. We wanted multiple homes. And then. 00:36:31
Looked into it was like oh this is really only for two homes. 00:36:38
So originally I thought of even doing 3. 00:36:41
But it was like, OK, it's not going to allow three, this is 2, but we could divide it. So there's a smaller lot for my parents in 00:36:44
a larger lot for me. 00:36:47
That was our intention. 00:36:51
You know, and so, yeah, we started building. 00:36:52
With that intention. 00:36:55
Looks to me like the fellow who sell to us who was a great guy. 00:36:57
Was thinking in terms of DVD. He would have said, you know, you're going to have to rezone this. 00:37:01
Yeah. And that's kind of what as you were talking about the story in history there was like, OK, putting the pieces together and I 00:37:05
didn't run into that until I was researching the property and. 00:37:10
Past reasons. 00:37:16
Kind of what was established there so. 00:37:18
I think that there's there is a. 00:37:20
Forward it just takes a different route and some coordination and it wouldn't cause the problem here. 00:37:22
You're thinking about it. 00:37:29
They would went with the PUD apparent. 00:37:30
And it's not a rezoning. 00:37:32
It's not right. Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm just saying that. 00:37:33
The way you're, yeah. 00:37:37
Approaching this, that does create a problem. 00:37:39
Even if it's open space, I see your point. Yeah, because it creates an underlying. 00:37:43
Type of belief that this can encroach further and further. 00:37:49
And I think it goes against what the city's ultimate. 00:37:53
Goal was to preserve this area. 00:37:56
And as soon as you start nibbling pieces out, all of a sudden fractures where there is a clear divining a dividing line. 00:37:59
Of which is one acre versus 2 acre. 00:38:06
And that becomes very blurred. 00:38:10
And me, as a part of the Planning Commission, don't want to have that happen. 00:38:12
So that's why I'm very cautious when we're looking at something like this. 00:38:16
I appreciate. 00:38:20
The situation you're in and what you're trying to do and. 00:38:21
Logically, that makes perfect sense, and maybe illogically some of the things we have to deal with. 00:38:25
Is this so? 00:38:31
Were there any other further questions for the applicant? Whether? 00:38:33
You're still up at the podium. 00:38:36
No, OK, we'll have him just a town then. Thank you so much. 00:38:37
All right, Commissioners, further discussion on this then. 00:38:41
Everybody got all their answers, know where they're going. 00:38:45
Then I will invite and entertain any motion anybody's ready to make. 00:38:48
This is Commissioner Prince. 00:38:52
I motion to forward a negative recommendation to the City Council. 00:38:54
On the application by C Randall Paul to amend holiday zoning map for 2.06 acres of land located at 2232 E Pheasant Way. 00:38:59
From R187 to R143. 00:39:08
Based upon the following findings that are listed in the staff report, particularly. 00:39:12
That this. 00:39:17
Would go against the general plan. 00:39:19
And cause a reduction in lot size that could lead to future. 00:39:22
Development. 00:39:28
In the future. 00:39:29
This is Commissioner Barrett. I'll second it. 00:39:31
All right, we have a motion in a second. We'll go ahead and call for a vote. We'll start down here. Commissioner Cunningham. Hi, 00:39:33
Mr. Bill Tinsky. Aye. Mr. Flaunt. Aye. 00:39:37
Commissioner Prince Aye, Commissioner Barrett. 00:39:41
And Chair Roach votes aye. So with that, we will forward a negative recommendation to City Council and. 00:39:43
Invite you to. 00:39:49
Speak with them further about it and thank you very much for. 00:39:51
Speaking with us tonight. 00:39:54
With that, we will move into the second item on our agenda, which is the approval of minutes. We have to do these one at a time. 00:39:56
So do we have to get a second on each one of these? 00:40:05
We do OK so. 00:40:08
With that, we decided that on the. 00:40:11
Approval of minutes for 11/19 that it was Commissioner Barrett that filled in the blank, is that right? 00:40:14
Just blank. I'm always trying. 00:40:20
All right, fair enough. So with that, is there any other amendments needed on that in those minutes? 00:40:24
And would someone care to make a motion on that? 00:40:30
Commissioner Prince, I'll motion that we approve the minutes from. 00:40:32
Whatever date we're talking about. 00:40:37
11:19, 11/19/24. 00:40:38
I'll second that motion. All right, and we have a second can all in favor say aye, aye, OK, perfect. That one worked. All right, 00:40:42
so we'll do it again on 12/2. Any adjustments? 00:40:47
Motion. 00:40:52
Well, I make the motion that we approve the minutes from 12:00 to. 00:40:56
I'll second, all right. Font made the motion, and Baron seconded. All in favor say aye aye. 00:41:00
And then on the third list of minutes from January 7th. 00:41:06
Any adjustments there? 00:41:11
Motion, I recommend approval of that. 00:41:14
Mr. Barrett makes motion. 00:41:16
Commissioner, font seconds all in favor, aye? 00:41:18
And with that, that is the totality of our agenda and I move to adjourn. All in favor say aye. 00:41:21
Done and done. Thank you very much. 00:41:28
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