Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge? Click Here
No Bookmarks Exist.
This is a work session to order. 00:00:00
On January 9th. 00:00:02
Welcome everybody. 00:00:06
Umm. 00:00:10
You weren't? Yeah. 00:00:12
Real quick, We do have a quick. 00:00:21
Well, uh. 00:00:24
We hope it's a quick closed session. We'll see. 00:00:25
And before we move to Item 2 on the agenda, we're just going to do a quick. 00:00:28
The non disclosure agreement or disclosure agreement. 00:00:33
Yes, Todd, yes. 00:00:36
Yeah, go ahead. 00:00:41
Last year, the state Legislature adopted the Department for disclosures for all elected officials. 00:00:42
And so your disclosure form is a little different than what you've seen in the past and it's different than what the staff will 00:00:48
sign this year. 00:00:51
Everything that you need to disclose on this form, one of the things you will see. 00:00:54
What the Legislature did. 00:01:01
It requires you to disclose your spouse's employment. 00:01:03
If there is any. 00:01:06
On the form. 00:01:08
Otherwise, I think it'll all be familiar to you. I don't think it's anything. 00:01:09
New or different? But you should be aware that these disclosures now get published with the state. 00:01:13
So and on their website. 00:01:21
Yeah. So they're easier to access I think than they were previously. 00:01:23
Neither good nor bad. It's just as well like on a website with and they can find them on the city website also. They've always 00:01:28
been able to do that. 00:01:32
It's not that big of a change. 00:01:36
But we just wanted to make you aware it's a new statutory requirement. 00:01:39
These will we need these. 00:01:41
Within the next few days because they have to be published with the state before the end of this month. 00:01:44
And that will be the drill now going forward. 00:01:50
Year, so is the previous employment, regardless of how long ago that month. 00:01:52
I would. 00:01:56
I would use your judgment. If it's 30 five years ago, I don't know that I'd worry about it. 00:01:59
This year's 5 1/2 years, I think it's been while you've been on the council. Yes, I would do it. Yep. 00:02:02
Employing the house by Yes, correct. 00:02:12
So as you go through this, if you don't, if you have more questions, you can ask to write tonight and if you don't finish filling 00:02:17
out I just. 00:02:20
If you want to scan it and send it to me or if you want to bring it in, I will come and get it from you since we're so late. 00:02:23
So. 00:02:28
But if you have any questions. 00:02:30
Thank you. Thanks, Todd. 00:02:34
Obviously. 00:02:36
Yes. 00:02:40
But it is a lot more in depth than. 00:02:41
It might take a little longer. 00:02:45
What? 00:02:50
The president of Todd Gottfried phone calls. 00:02:54
Groupie. 00:03:04
OK, all right. Well, I guess we are doing the City Hall thing. 00:03:06
Right. Hopefully like on January 5th or 6th or 7th of next year, sometime around there they start. 00:03:11
Anything important about that date there? Yes. 00:03:20
As excited as I am about this. 00:03:25
It's going to be interesting year or so, 14 months. 00:03:28
Yeah. 00:03:34
And so. 00:03:51
So. 00:04:02
What we wanted to bring to the Council's attention is primarily that. 00:04:03
Having worked through all the seismic upgrades and kind of the impact. 00:04:07
In what the building would be. 00:04:11
The primary thing that. 00:04:13
Is going to happen is that? 00:04:15
The main corridors. 00:04:16
Most likely be fully demolished and have to be rebuilt. 00:04:19
Because the seismic walls will be kind of being, we're going to be basically building. 00:04:22
Are upgrading these internal walls on both sides from from basement all the way to group? 00:04:27
And so. 00:04:34
Because of that. 00:04:35
You know, we were kind of. 00:04:37
Talking with the kind of administration team and what are the implications? Pictures. 00:04:38
OK, how do we then reconstruct the hallway in particular? 00:04:42
Which is kind of the public experience of this place. 00:04:46
And so there's the option to kind of. 00:04:49
Literally rebuild it passives. 00:04:51
Which is this kind of copper ceiling, but as we were going through the existing photos as well as the kind of documentation and 00:04:54
the original building. 00:04:57
So in the first page which you might have seen. 00:05:02
That's all of the original kind of actually drawings of the original building and lease site which started. 00:05:05
I mean the additions which. 00:05:11
Show the kind of corridor condition which was actually supposed to be. 00:05:12
A ^2 ceiling with kind of a kind of a cornice detail around. 00:05:17
And then when we looked at the photos of the hallway. 00:05:22
It was also kind of a square thing, so the kind of Dome shape was introduced by the architects in the addition that you guys did 00:05:26
when you converted a building from. 00:05:30
Elementary school to your kind of administrative office, so. 00:05:35
We were thinking, kind of our take was that if we're going to have to rebuild the entire hallway, we might bring back some of that 00:05:39
original character using both. 00:05:43
The inspirations from the original drawings, but. 00:05:48
If you go to. 00:05:51
The next page. 00:05:52
The next one. 00:05:55
So what we did is we developed some schemes where we were looking. 00:05:59
The irony is that all the original photos or the photos that were taken during the demolition didn't actually show. 00:06:03
The transition between. 00:06:09
Like how the school would have looked. 00:06:12
When it was built and then the addition for the school before it became converted so. 00:06:14
What we were hoping to do is then take a look at. 00:06:20
Similar buildings built around that time and kind of what type of kind of material quality and polling they would do. And so 00:06:22
that's kind of our decision making for how we are proposing some options to you. 00:06:28
So in the first option you'll see kind of weak development. See. 00:06:33
In the first option, what we're calling kind of a minimalist scheme is that. 00:06:37
We looked at buildings that were built kind of in that time around the 1920s and 30s. 00:06:41
And oftentimes what the floors would be would be some kind of monolithic teroxome. 00:06:45
It was really durable and then. 00:06:50
Would you get a cleaning right? 00:06:53
The drawings original drawings showed like a marble. 00:06:55
And obviously we thought cost wise we're not going to propose like marble floors. 00:06:58
But we felt like we wanted to do something that maybe upgrades and then also becomes actually a little bit more durable or easy to 00:07:05
clean than the floors that you have. So the high cleft, the bees original floors means that. 00:07:11
Honestly, when you're mopping or whatever dirt, it's honestly always going to get into those clefts and it's gonna really be hard 00:07:18
to feel like it's clean, clean. 00:07:22
And So what we have as our first option is, is. 00:07:25
Large format, it's a porcelain child that looks like a Toronto. So it's just going to be not the cost of Toronto, but again. 00:07:28
Going to give us a kind of really similar look. 00:07:34
And we're going to, we were proposing this one. It comes in a really large format of 24 by 24. 00:07:36
So that you could set it with a really tight grout joint and just becomes kind of monolithic. 00:07:42
Through the hallway. 00:07:47
And so we did develop some imagery using this tile so you can see what that might look like. 00:07:48
We called us a minimalist scheme because. 00:07:54
We do want to keep the molding which we feel is actually the most kind of true to the character of the original building and what 00:07:56
which kind of recreated. 00:08:00
And then what we would do is that. 00:08:04
We're coordinating with the exhibit design that was kind of coming through. And so we feel like if we went with a minimalist team 00:08:08
where the floor isn't necessarily really dramatic or. 00:08:12
Colorful. Then the new lighting for the kind of hall displays that will be going up all along the corridor would then become the 00:08:16
thing that becomes the attention. 00:08:20
And so that's kind of that first option that we were looking at. 00:08:25
Can we go next? 00:08:29
The stage. So that's the view that you can see here. 00:08:31
Enlarged and then the next page. 00:08:35
So the scheme for the. 00:08:40
Offices and all of the kind of spaces outside of the border. 00:08:44
Will most likely get incorporating at minimum. There's some more updates in the other spaces furnishings. 00:08:49
That we'll be working through, but primarily. 00:08:55
Into the carpet is going to be replaced everywhere. 00:08:57
And So what we're proposing is in this option is you can see the carpet titles there. 00:09:00
Is an kind of a plank tile that would be laid down. 00:09:05
So that. 00:09:09
Since these are regional targets, this is like a custom design. 00:09:11
Which actually we wanted to play off the green. We think that's kind of a fun. 00:09:15
And a way to continue kind of reinforce that some of that kind of. 00:09:19
The identity that had been built into the logo and everything for Holiday. 00:09:24
But what we're doing is we're proposing something that's maybe a little kind of a slightly more modern pattern, and then because 00:09:28
it's a plank. 00:09:31
If in the future. 00:09:35
The floor gets kind of a little section gets. 00:09:37
Nickel rune It can be replaced much easier than these current carpets, which is. 00:09:40
Or for broadband that if things have been problem that you would have to replace the entire car. 00:09:44
So we're hoping these things help on kind of a maintenance standpoint for the future. 00:09:49
And so this one is a linear thing. It's a linear pattern that could be laid in a plane. 00:09:53
It has a little bit hints of green, but overall it's a really consistent kind of distribution. So once it lays down together, it 00:09:58
starts to, we feel read kind of. 00:10:02
Neutral. 00:10:06
So the next image. 00:10:08
The other option we were looking at is. 00:10:12
While we feel like minimalism is not a bad way to go, we do feel that maybe a little bit of the character of the hallway got lost 00:10:15
in like a completely monolithic floor. 00:10:20
And So what we then look at is other ways in which buildings of the time period would deal with hallways, particularly a really 00:10:25
long corridor. 00:10:29
And oftentimes what you'd see is this kind of bordering effect where the outside perimeter would have a darker color and then 00:10:33
every so often they would be just kind of broad section. 00:10:38
And so that broad section would usually relate to things down the portal and like entrances to certain hallways of buildings or 00:10:42
rooms, right? 00:10:46
And so you understand that the existing corridor has these pilasters upgrade these little spaces. 00:10:50
It's basically are subtly indicating when you actually. 00:10:56
Entered a place where there should be. 00:11:00
A room of importance to the writers of Lack. 00:11:02
And So what we wanted to do is maybe take that forward as an option and so. 00:11:05
In this one, what we're doing is we're doing the border tile. 00:11:10
That would be dark and then in the middle. 00:11:13
We're looking at it. 00:11:15
A tile that looks like a marble. 00:11:17
As a kind of callback to, like I said, the original idea that there should have been marble floors. 00:11:20
To the next page. 00:11:24
And so Miss Marvel would then be laid in a diamond, and then you can see this kind of darker greater. 00:11:27
And so as you can see then you can highlight when there becomes. 00:11:32
Kind of a space adjacent. 00:11:37
That would be a place where people might be going or headed to. 00:11:39
And so that's the second option that you see over there. 00:11:42
Again, we're not trying to like overwhelmingly with pattern and style, but. 00:11:46
In the kind of subtle gestures of changing it up, it does provide a little bit more kind of character. 00:11:51
And historic kind of quality that. 00:11:56
That kind of would have probably not be done in the building of this. 00:11:59
Aid at that temperature. 00:12:02
And then the. 00:12:06
Sorry, scroll back so. 00:12:08
We have a different Scroll down 1. 00:12:10
Don't go down 1. Yep. 00:12:14
There we go. So we do have one option, a slightly different option for carpet for the rooms. 00:12:16
So instead of having something that's linear, which maybe feels a little bit. 00:12:22
To modern we did say that potentially we want to. 00:12:28
Propose something that has a little bit of more pattern to it. 00:12:30
Pattern is always great, mainly because it does hide things really well. 00:12:35
This is. 00:12:38
Biggest standard of. 00:12:40
Big hotels. Conference rooms. 00:12:41
Big pattern that should hide things, right? 00:12:43
So again, we're always going to propose, kind of. 00:12:45
Tile system. So what tiles could be replaced? 00:12:48
But we're showing kind of two options here. 00:12:51
Which have a little bit more capacity to them. 00:12:55
And again, when they actually *** **** when they *** **** together, we don't think the pattern is super distracting. We're not 00:12:57
looking for a lot of high contrast per se. 00:13:02
But we thought that maybe it. 00:13:06
Feels a little bit more interesting or lively than the linear flow which. 00:13:09
Might start to feel a little bit. 00:13:13
Trap in all your in all your public spaces. 00:13:16
So that's kind of this kind of other option that we're proposing. 00:13:20
And then if you scroll to the next page, the. 00:13:25
Oh sorry, if you Scroll down to the bottom. 00:13:31
On each of these options. 00:13:34
Are showing just in the. 00:13:37
We're creating a basement works, kind of. We called a work lounge. 00:13:40
For the staff, that's where. 00:13:45
There would be both the new kitchen area as well as just some casual meeting places. 00:13:49
For the basement where we are proposing that that new space use kind of an LB. 00:13:53
A resilient title. 00:13:59
And what we were doing is for that room, we felt particularly because it was supposed to feel a little bit like. 00:14:00
Not only just a kind of a workplace, but an actual place for. 00:14:05
Staff to actually meet and congregate and do some team meetings or some other casual things. 00:14:09
We wanted to make it a little more lively and fun. 00:14:14
And So what we're proposing is that we're proposing a palette of kind of three colors for the OEP. 00:14:16
We use it to kind of start to kind of subtly designate spaces within a larger space. 00:14:22
So then in this one we're calling it like a. 00:14:27
For carpet is that it needs a kind of more casual sitting area. 00:14:31
There's more station than the kitchenette. 00:14:34
And then on the backs, but on the back we're proposing kind of Wallpapers. 1 is a little bit more subtle. 00:14:37
And if you go up? 00:14:43
So the a version. 00:14:45
This one becomes a little bit more bold in the kind of graphic that we're choosing for the wallpaper. 00:14:52
We found this one. This isn't off the shelf. That has kind of a tree motif. 00:14:57
Which we were calling back to the leaf motif. 00:15:01
That healthy. 00:15:04
That's kind of the kind of two options we kind of put together for the staff to kind of think about. 00:15:06
And they wanted to present it to you. 00:15:11
City Council so that we could get some of your thoughts and thinking. 00:15:13
I mean, there's. 00:15:18
Are there specific? 00:15:21
Are there specific? 00:15:23
Decisions you'd like us to make here, like. Yeah, I think the big one is the. 00:15:26
The road versus the mountain. Clifford feeling. 00:15:31
Maybe we can go back. 00:15:35
OK. So yeah, up here, sorry. 00:15:40
Scroll down. 00:15:43
So the big thing about? 00:15:48
What we're saying is, is that when we don't. 00:15:50
We rebuild the arch, right? 00:15:52
We can raise your feelings and have them flat. 00:15:55
What we are doing is adding like a copper detail down where we would then use kind of. 00:15:57
Casework at the top, including. 00:16:04
At the top since then, reinforce those spaces below, but we wanted to make sure that the Council felt. 00:16:08
That would be OK because. 00:16:13
You know, obviously that's a big change from what? 00:16:15
Was installed here, this kind of stone ceiling all going all the way down. So that's one big architectural change and like I said. 00:16:18
If the Council thought. 00:16:24
That quality was something important. We could recreate it. But like we said. 00:16:26
We will have to devil all the ceilings that are in the entire corridor to do the. 00:16:30
Structural work. So that was the big thing that. 00:16:34
We wanted to get your feedback on if you felt that this kind of Dome seemed going down was important enough that you wanted to 00:16:37
regulate or if you're open to kind of moving into a different direction. 00:16:41
Is there a cost difference do you think or is it? 00:16:48
They're actually rebuilding the. 00:16:51
The Half Dome ceiling will probably be more costly because it's all over frames. 00:16:54
This one would be more consistent with the horses original historical period of the building. 00:17:04
Would you? Would that influence? Would you? 00:17:14
So I think. 00:17:18
Either the flooring could go like either before it could work with either scenes. 00:17:19
Primarily, the flooring was about. 00:17:24
Whether we thought that this kind of monochromatic scheme became a little bit. 00:17:27
To black, you might say. 00:17:32
And if there was a little bit more interest in bringing back the idea of the bordering? 00:17:35
Starts to suddenly indicate where there are spaces, where there's probably rooms or places. 00:17:39
So both of these renderings do show flat ceiling. 00:17:45
So I've never noticed. 00:17:52
Like I said, it's like we. 00:17:56
We, we were like, you know it, the ceilings all going to go away. There is a cost to be creating the Half Dome. That's why we were 00:18:05
saying that potentially. 00:18:09
Also, architecturally, it kind of matches the original character of the building we just noticed, but it was a big change. 00:18:13
So we wanted to bring up the. 00:18:18
Looking cancer protection? 00:18:20
That's great. 00:18:22
But to your question on the flooring. 00:18:24
I think that. 00:18:29
The one seemed really plain to me. Yeah, it was very plain. 00:18:30
I like the one you're showing. 00:18:34
Agreed. 00:18:37
Do that. 00:18:38
With a border. 00:18:41
We could we could find this monochromatic, it would just be depending on what order we would look at and so. 00:18:43
We could do a border. I guess the one thing is is that. 00:18:49
What we're using that visually helps is that there's contrast. 00:18:52
And the idea of monochromatic, even though you do a tile where you could see the subtle change. 00:18:56
You wouldn't necessarily. 00:19:00
Get as clear of a like a change of that pattern. So if you were going monochromatic, we would just say then you just lay the title 00:19:03
all the way because it's also from a cost standpoint, if you're going to use the same tile but just change your patterning, then 00:19:08
the labor increases substantially for let's say, cutting. 00:19:13
But if you actually are interested in the board, then you can find that out. 00:19:19
So we're doing the darker bordering, that's a tile, it is tile, that's the monochrome. And then these are the tiles for. 00:19:24
Our tiles and this would be the field type which would be. 00:19:33
That's great. Like this one's a little bit flower. 00:19:37
My child is more marble. They're not slippery, are they? Or no? 00:19:39
OK, maybe think about is on the border. Have it more of a. 00:19:45
Holiday brand color greenish. 00:19:48
We would have. 00:19:51
Always say the biggest challenge to the green is not. 00:19:55
A readily available floor color right now, so green. 00:19:59
So even that green marble that was abused, which was very popular when. 00:20:03
That color was very popular at that time. You could find a lot of options. I have scoured and we found one greenish. 00:20:07
Item, now that's that, yeah. 00:20:15
Great read. And so when we showed it to the administrative staff, they were like, well. 00:20:21
We like the idea, but the green wasn't like the right green. 00:20:25
And so unless you were, let's say. 00:20:29
And again, it doesn't make sense if let's say do a custom. 00:20:31
Tile, right? And so that's why we did scour quite a bit of, but we couldn't find there isn't a lot of green floor tiles. 00:20:35
Make a statement that would like. 00:20:45
Place it in this time that it would get outdated. 00:20:47
Right. 00:20:51
Well, and this is. 00:20:53
I'm assuming this is. 00:20:55
Been boiled down through because I've seen you guys have it working. 00:20:56
Yeah. So we presented like several other options. What we're trying to do is boil it down to a couple that. 00:21:00
You know, the team felt that, you know. 00:21:06
Met kind of the bigger ideas that they were thinking about but we wanted. 00:21:09
Big key ideas or for the Commission here. 00:21:12
Because particularly the public experiences. 00:21:16
Is going to change a bit. 00:21:19
Whenever we look back. 00:21:21
So we wanted to see if there were any concerns. 00:21:23
In the Council about the. 00:21:26
I'm also interested in knowing. 00:21:29
In the. 00:21:32
We've had council members. 00:21:34
At a particular interest in the site. 00:21:36
And so they transacted with our administrative scale. 00:21:38
City Park. 00:21:46
I don't know if anyone on the council has a similar interest. 00:21:49
Fire District 1 representative. 00:21:55
I I. 00:21:59
Include the Council. 00:22:08
They will continue to bring back. 00:22:09
This place. 00:22:15
And I mean, it's like we're happy to engage you as to the level you want. There were staff in the past. I worked a little bit. 00:22:18
Originally with the original Council president, who was very interested when we did. 00:22:26
Our proposal for the formative. 00:22:30
And again, they wanted to. They wanted to be a part of. 00:22:32
Every design meeting. 00:22:35
And that's why we wanted to understand the level of interest the current council has in terms of some of this decision. 00:22:36
One comment or question I assume. 00:22:49
A lot of these. 00:22:52
Rooms won't be changed that much except from the. 00:22:54
The wood finish is my only question, where it's one that ends, and I don't know that it's as timeless as I wish that it was, you 00:22:56
know? 00:22:58
And so this is one of the things is honestly what we're doing is we're. 00:23:02
Trying as a cost measure we're actually trying to keep. 00:23:06
The current wood color step and then use everything else we're doing to kind of modernize it. 00:23:09
So one of the first things we're doing is as we've transitioned to a palette. 00:23:15
That polls, we would say a little bit more kind of Gray and neutral. 00:23:19
And so we're also proposing that the walls will become like a crisper white. This is really muddled. 00:23:24
And so in doing those things, we're hoping that. 00:23:32
It actually will tone down the kind of. 00:23:35
Quality of the wood stain so we can keep a lot of it in locations, particularly all the doors on. 00:23:38
You know, it goes everywhere. 00:23:43
Right. And still have to touch windows and other rooms that aren't getting a full refresh. You know that all can stay and then 00:23:44
we're not going to match. So that's why we've been trying to choose in terms of thinking about lighting, color and pattern as a 00:23:49
way to update. 00:23:54
So that when these do come back, it does feel current. 00:23:59
But we can actually use the color of that blood as a basis. 00:24:01
I love that, thanks for being conscious. 00:24:05
Because otherwise. 00:24:09
Right. That would need to either be stripped and be seen or actually just torn out. I don't think that's bad. I see what you're 00:24:11
saying. You can change. 00:24:15
Everything around it actually makes the wood scene. 00:24:20
Like it might be. 00:24:24
Appear to be new even though it's not yeah and I think that's I mean that's always kind of even when we do like, you know I we do 00:24:25
a ton of renovations of both. 00:24:29
And, you know, commercial spaces and residential spaces, but that's usually the trick. 00:24:34
Is you can like. The first thing is if you identify what. 00:24:38
Maybe the really costly thing and you may want to work with. 00:24:42
But depending on how you work around it, we feel strongly that we can. 00:24:45
Make it feel updated. 00:24:48
Without having to do everything there. 00:24:49
Cool. 00:24:53
It sounds like we're on the right track. 00:24:56
Do we need anything on the What about the carpet? Yeah. 00:24:58
Showing you kind of where you are if you had strong opinion. 00:25:02
To your comment about the terrazzo look. 00:25:07
This specific tile does come in different colorways, so we could pair this if we don't. 00:25:10
We like this kind of Toronto. We look over the Marvel look. 00:25:15
We could pair this with a darker. 00:25:19
Or lighter tone and be able to create the same border effect but using a different texture. 00:25:21
So but. 00:25:26
OK. 00:25:28
I think on the carpet side we just wanted to know if there was any strong. 00:25:30
Otherwise we can just work with that. 00:25:38
But I, like I said, conceptually, the big idea is we do like the idea of. 00:25:40
The subtlety of the heat. 00:25:44
Yeah. 00:25:46
But what we're trying to do is maybe tone back. 00:25:47
Like the overwhelming green? 00:25:51
And then make it more like. 00:25:53
Yeah, the green could be taken too far as well. Yeah. 00:25:57
The middle one. 00:26:01
And it's not harsh. 00:26:09
It's pretty, yeah. It's. 00:26:11
Yeah. 00:26:13
Maybe you can pass around the. 00:26:26
Other floor sample? Sure. 00:26:28
The Dom Draper Rec Room. 00:26:31
Just the one that's a little. 00:26:56
I think we got this standby, so it's actually 5 to 6 inch. 00:26:59
So yeah, it's making the fashion statement. 00:27:14
In other words. 00:27:17
Better. 00:27:19
I mean, one screamed up for whiskey. 00:27:24
So I do like the other one. 00:27:28
Felt different. 00:27:33
Yeah. 00:27:36
This is just concepts too. We can get more how those spaces can be laid out and we can have those discussions. This is just. 00:27:39
Yeah. So what we, what we will be doing working with the administrative team is. 00:27:47
For these rooms, the actual furniture. 00:27:52
We're going to be working with kind of. 00:27:54
A kind of just. 00:27:57
A furniture supplier to help us give us options for how like. 00:27:59
We're looking for creating a commercial grade furniture that can withstand kind of the wear and tear. So we'll be working with 00:28:03
them for particularly options in the administrative wings in terms of updating the desks and those types of things. 00:28:09
For a space like that. 00:28:14
That will give us some ideas of options, but primarily we're going to. 00:28:16
Ask them for ideas about how we can make it flexible. 00:28:20
Like I said, that one downstairs kind of lounge space, the staff lounge, we're calling it. 00:28:22
The idea had been because this one is so small, the entire staff can't meet together in a place that doesn't necessarily always 00:28:27
feel like we're in a conference. 00:28:32
It's like, maybe it'd be nice if you're doing like a lunch session or something like that. It's a little bit more casual. 00:28:36
But also if people wanted to get out of their office and work somewhere. 00:28:41
Just with their laptop were a little bit that could be the place or even if they want to and you're going to get into this later. 00:28:45
That was I think my point is. 00:28:49
Yeah, when we start getting into these individual spaces, we'll be. 00:28:54
Engaging our employees and say how do we. 00:28:58
How do we set these spaces up so that there is? 00:29:01
Functional. 00:29:05
As they can possibly be if we're going to invest this money like. 00:29:06
Because I know in here, when I walk in, I always feel bad when somebody's. 00:29:09
Eating their lunch and then I interrupt them and. 00:29:12
So there will be places to where somebody wants to eat their lunch in private, right? They can do that. 00:29:16
Yeah. So that's the stuff that. 00:29:21
We're working with, yeah, that's down the road, yeah. Yeah, we have engaged our staff. 00:29:22
In the sport. 00:29:28
I think there will be more conversations. 00:29:31
And some of these choices that were avoided. 00:29:33
The cost, the estimates that we're going to come back to you and so that's. 00:29:36
Piece of the reason why we need to have some of these conversations up. 00:29:40
So going down the road now. 00:29:44
We can just expect every. 00:29:47
So often to have. 00:29:50
Have them come back and say, OK, we need to revision thought, hey DC and Vena and eventually we'll have. 00:29:52
The full layout of what we need to bid out for everything. 00:29:59
Yeah, I mean, right now we're. 00:30:01
For the most part, this is one of the biggest. 00:30:03
I think then we're moving into the furniture discussion. That's the next level. 00:30:06
And the finalization of. 00:30:10
An appendage like the mechanical break. 00:30:12
So we hope that, you know, within the next couple of months we'd be, we'd be. 00:30:15
Creating like a more final package that would be comprehensive. 00:30:20
And then that would be the that would go in for the. 00:30:24
Process and then we can say. 00:30:29
Right now we. 00:30:31
Feel pretty good that that that there has been huge changes that have like jumped your scope from what we did originally, but. 00:30:32
Again, we want to get that all kind of tight. 00:30:38
With 100% is out of the full structural. 00:30:41
Package that. That's the big thing that's driving how much we're going to have to do for the certain outbreak study. 00:30:44
OK, signing. 00:30:53
Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. 00:30:54
Thanks for coming. 00:30:57
Thanks staff for working on this. I see you guys. 00:31:00
Going over was asking them like. 00:31:03
I'm right? 00:31:14
Yeah, they're just, I think they're just out in the hall. 00:31:17
Did you want to interrupt? Oh, you're good. 00:31:24
Ethan and I are going to take to head to the table if that's OK. Ethan is Director of Research at Vice Analytics, so he is my. 00:31:28
Right hand for holiday. 00:31:35
I want to we'll just go sort of page by page here. A lot of this is going to be really familiar. 00:31:42
So beginning of the survey here, we don't have a lot of changes. We have our warm up questions for residents. 00:31:50
Overall quality of life rating, right direction, wrong direction, and general elected approval ratings. 00:31:55
So we'll be tracking those overtime as well as the. 00:32:02
How holiday today compares to five years ago? 00:32:06
We've made a couple changes to the open-ended questions this year so we still have what you like most about winning holiday. 00:32:15
But we added a question to try and get at sort of what values or things residents point to that make holiday unique or distinct 00:32:22
from other communities along the Los Angeles front. 00:32:28
So that question has been added here. 00:32:34
And then we still have our top issue question which thinking about the next three to five years, both of us press significant 00:32:36
facing in the city. 00:32:40
And overall likelihood to recommend the city to others as a place to live. 00:32:44
We have our reading through Test Dollar and our general sentiments about Holiday to what extent I disagree or disagree. 00:32:53
About some of these. 00:33:01
Attributes of the community. 00:33:02
Managing city services, whether the city have businesses they're looking for, growing and developing the positive way. 00:33:04
This next one, sorry, just a little bit there. We added this business type question. So if residents say that they to some extent 00:33:11
disagree. 00:33:16
That the city has all of the businesses or all the kinds of businesses they would like to have. 00:33:21
We wanted to give them some categories here. We know if we provide an open-ended question for this, we're going to get a lot of 00:33:26
Trader Joe's. 00:33:30
And we're looking to maybe direct the economic development question a little bit more. So we've provided some business categories 00:33:34
and still left that option for another. Please specify. I wouldn't be surprised if we still see an appearance there. 00:33:41
Now you can go ahead. I just told someone this last week, but it should be. 00:33:49
They won't be able to get $2.00 check. 00:33:52
Performs in terms of sidewalk maintenance, St. lighting, city code enforcement, works open spaces, community events. 00:34:00
Cetera we're looking at. 00:34:20
Water conservation efforts as well, so. 00:34:23
Drilling down on some of these things to see if residents attitudes have changed since the city undertook some of the capital 00:34:26
projects for holiday time. 00:34:30
Services provided by a contractor agency for the familiar list here. No real changes. Yes please. 00:34:36
Yes. Is there going to be something for each of those or is that? 00:34:46
Well, we did it specifically for code enforcement because that was the one in the last iteration of this survey that received. 00:34:50
The lowest rating overall and we wanted to be able to parse whether residents are frustrated by too much code enforcement or not 00:34:56
enough code enforcement and and what direction that might be cutting. So we added it specifically for that this year. 00:35:04
They want coordinates more in their neighborhood. 00:35:13
City services contracted with another agency and then just general city services experience if there's anything else folks would 00:35:28
like to tell us about their students this day. 00:35:32
And we've moved the budget allocation question up in the survey so that it immediately follows those city service ratings this 00:35:37
year. 00:35:41
Partly because we've introduced some new topics into the survey that we want to get residents opinions on. 00:35:45
So this just seems to flow a little bit better, but hopefully this also means that. 00:35:50
Residents are thinking about their experiences with city services. 00:35:56
They're thinking specifically about how they would like to see. 00:35:59
Their funds allocated if we're looking to improve some of those experiences. 00:36:04
Some neighborhood sentiments here. So generally we're looking at sort of the look and feel of neighborhoods. 00:36:13
In holiday and then we've added a couple questions here from what we had in the past was a full battery that examined residents 00:36:21
attitudes towards traffic and roads in the city both. 00:36:27
Major thoroughfares and the streets and roads in their neighborhood. 00:36:33
We have instead tapped those onto this neighborhood sentiments question. 00:36:37
Looking at. 00:36:42
Maintenance in roads in their neighborhood and the city as a whole, again, sort of following up on some of those capital. 00:36:43
We have our streetlights, a number or amount and quality questions here. So are there enough, too many or? 00:36:52
Too not enough to many or the red. 00:37:02
And then in terms of quality, are they too bright, not bright enough or adequate? 00:37:04
Similar set of questions for holiday or for home accent lighting. 00:37:10
So this has. 00:37:16
Come up a little bit and we're trying to address it delicately. You don't want to create an issue where there isn't one, but we do 00:37:18
want to understand the extent to which residents broadly in the city feel strongly about this. 00:37:24
We have a section here that delves into residence transit use, so current use of public transit in or around holiday. 00:37:36
Overall frequency. 00:37:45
And then? 00:37:47
A set of potential barriers to entry. So what things might be keeping residents from using transit, or using transit more 00:37:48
frequently? 00:37:52
We had a short list here and then included that other. Please specify. Certainly open to additional. 00:37:57
Response options. 00:38:04
I think this covered most of our bases. If we're thinking about bus systems not having routes where residents like to go, they're 00:38:06
unfamiliar or uncomfortable. 00:38:11
Just preference of another mode of transportation. 00:38:16
Or there's no stop that is convenient to their home, so difficulty accessing transit Commission. 00:38:19
And then potential ways to overcome those barriers to entry. So which if any of these? 00:38:28
Solutions might encourage them to use transit or use transit more. More bus stops a bus stop within walking distance of their. 00:38:34
Improvements to bus stops or buses. More information, schedules, More frequent bus service. 00:38:42
New direct routes so. 00:38:47
For example, a service to the university. 00:38:50
Access to additional types of transit, whether that's streetcar. 00:38:55
In the city and then again that other. Please specify option and none of the above option there as well. 00:38:59
The reality is we're having edition. 00:39:06
A share of residence. I won't speculate too much on what that share looks like, but. 00:39:08
Who for whom? We can't overcome those barriers to entry so. 00:39:12
The news and communications section here should be pretty familiar overall how residents are currently receiving information from 00:39:17
the city and how they would prefer to receive most of their information from the city. 00:39:24
Identifying some potential areas for further emphasis. 00:39:30
And then a sense of the cadence of communications as well, so whether residents are happy with the level of communication they 00:39:35
receive or if they would prefer to receive. 00:39:40
More or less information from the city. 00:39:45
And then we've added this question about interest in a separate city newsletter outside the Holiday Journal, So. 00:39:49
We know that residents are. 00:39:57
Quite attached to the Journal, but we're interested to see how much attention they're paying to the city's piece of the Journal. 00:39:59
If that is more. 00:40:06
Social or? 00:40:09
Fun news source, or if it is something where they're turning to that source for city information. 00:40:11
And if so, is that something that residents would be interested in the city providing separately? 00:40:16
And if so, on what cadence? So monthly, every two months, one supporter price year or once year? 00:40:23
We have our contact questions here, so if residents have contacted the city office in the past years. 00:40:32
Were they generally satisfied with the satisfied and if they have any comments they would like to share about that? 00:40:38
An open-ended response option there as well. 00:40:44
We have a housing section here that is. 00:40:50
Probably somewhat familiar. I think we asked this question. 00:40:53
About the types of housing that are needed in holiday overall in the past. 00:40:57
So various sort of missing middle housing options. 00:41:03
And then? 00:41:08
A follow up question which is which features would fit well? 00:41:09
Into residence specific area of the city. So first looking at what does the city need writ large and then residents be willing to 00:41:13
have in their own vendor. 00:41:18
And then the flip side of that. 00:41:29
Would residents like to see some of those things in the city generally, but maybe not in their own backyards so. 00:41:32
Trying to get both sides of the coin here. Get residents to really tell us what their priorities for the city as a whole are. 00:41:39
Preference the question the legislature is holding a gun to your head. 00:41:45
Yeah. 00:41:51
You had to choose right? Looking at this set of questions here. 00:41:53
The scroll up just a bit, so we're posting a set of questions. 00:41:58
About Adu's and. 00:42:03
Sort of potential development solutions. 00:42:06
Mixed-use developments. 00:42:10
Whether the housing that is introduced to the city. 00:42:14
In an effort to respond to the Legislature's requirements. 00:42:18
Would be more. 00:42:23
Palatable or for us to be more open to it if it sort of fits the look and feel of existing housing and holiday. 00:42:25
Is it supporting high density housing, providing more options for future residents? 00:42:33
Are we encouraging more moderate income housing for residents making less than $80,000 a year? 00:42:39
Would residents be interested in seeing Pacific allocating funding? 00:42:45
To rehabilitation. 00:42:49
So that there are more opportunities for multi company. 00:42:51
For some properties that pay. 00:42:55
And could be low hanging fruit there. 00:42:58
So we have. 00:43:01
A variety of options here and things that we'll ask residents just their general sentiments about. 00:43:03
See. See if there's. 00:43:09
One Ave. that is especially appealing for residents as we're speaking. 00:43:11
What levers to pull? 00:43:16
We've added this public health section this year, so we're starting with asking a set of questions about. 00:43:25
To what extent? 00:43:31
Their residents are broadly concerned about some public health issues. 00:43:34
Or are they? 00:43:39
Are they of concern to residents and their neighbors? 00:43:40
Typically we wouldn't ask a question that is. 00:43:44
A little bit speculative in the direction of, you know, what do you think your neighbors think? 00:43:47
But when it comes to public health, we need to be able to give residents some sense of anonymity. 00:43:52
So if residents are. 00:43:57
Reporting on what they see as a community wide issue rather than just a. 00:44:00
Personal in their household issue. 00:44:04
We're hopeful, and this is something that we see in social science a lot, just providing a little bit of that. 00:44:07
Social cover. 00:44:12
Tends to give us more. 00:44:14
Honest answers. 00:44:16
And then we do ask a follow-up question after asking about. 00:44:19
Some of these public health issues broadly, you know. 00:44:24
To what extent, if at all, these concerns have had an impact on? 00:44:27
Residents and members of their house. 00:44:31
Some Emergency Management questions are new this year as well. 00:44:37
So overall we're looking at. 00:44:41
Residents perceptions of how well prepared various organizations or groups are in the event of a natural disaster or emergency, 00:44:43
including their own household. So we want to start close to home, then sort of branch out from there. 00:44:50
To get residents sense of. 00:44:57
Overall preparedness. 00:44:59
Scroll down. I'm getting a little bit more specific. We're asking residents what types of preparations they have in place in the 00:45:02
event of emergency. 00:45:06
One of the things. 00:45:12
That we. 00:45:13
I can sort of toyed with here. 00:45:15
Is the shift between having enough food and water for three days? 00:45:17
Versus having enough food and water for a week or more when we're thinking about the reality of emergency response times. 00:45:24
And when aid could arrive in the event of a severe emergency. 00:45:30
Is that going to change the way residents are thinking about their own emergency preparedness? Is that going to change the way the 00:45:35
city should be discussing emergency preparedness with residents? 00:45:40
So that's what those options, 2 through 5 are there. And then there's some of these other things, designated meeting places, 00:45:45
copies of important documents, types of insurance. 00:45:50
That our insurance companies think we need. 00:45:56
Regardless of whether it makes sense in our neighborhood. 00:45:59
And then the next question here goes. 00:46:04
So I'm trying to see what we're trying to get at here. 00:46:08
Like what are we going to do with us? Are we using that as the future education tool regarding? 00:46:14
Fire insurance. Flood insurance, Earthquake insurance. 00:46:21
Why do we want that information? 00:46:27
Yeah. So I think the first step here is understanding what residents see as necessary and what they are prepared with so that we 00:46:29
can tailor the city's. 00:46:34
Approach and communications. 00:46:40
Educational programs about emergency preparedness to sort of address the gaps. 00:46:42
As we're thinking about. 00:46:48
Likely events in holiday. 00:46:49
Or less likely events, certainly, but. 00:46:52
Sort of understanding the broad. 00:46:55
Landscape there for emergency preparedness and. 00:46:57
Being able to then. 00:47:01
Develop a program that is addressing residents needs or lack of information. 00:47:03
So we can use it as a. 00:47:09
Way to focus where we're going to try to communicate and educate with our residents down the road. 00:47:13
Because I'm just looking ahead a little bit here to some of the questions and. 00:47:19
Part of what I think of my questions going to be is. 00:47:23
You know, it's a long survey and is it going to? 00:47:26
Maybe I'll wait till we get to the end, but I'm going to have that question. 00:47:31
How much of this information is really useful to us and. 00:47:35
Is it going to? 00:47:39
Discourage people from taking a survey when they see the length of it. 00:47:43
And I was going to get to. Is there any way you can? 00:47:47
Segment it so if somebody gives up after they get through. 00:47:49
Half or 2/3? 00:47:53
You've at least got. 00:47:55
The pieces they did. 00:47:57
So absolutely yes, we always keep partial responses included in the data. 00:47:58
Just so that we're not losing out on some of that information if residents did get fatigued at some point in the survey. 00:48:04
Mayor, you've anticipated my question to the group here. 00:48:11
Where should we prioritize our efforts in this case because we really. 00:48:16
Done our best to capture all of the sort of new or newly focused areas of. 00:48:21
Lines of questioning here. 00:48:30
So we are. 00:48:32
A bit longer than we would like to be. 00:48:34
If there are some things that we can deprioritize or if there are things that. 00:48:36
Maybe don't make sense to ask at this time we're. 00:48:41
Definitely looking for ways to. That's a real question I'd have when you start going through these text pages and then look at 00:48:46
this stuff. 00:48:50
Like what's your income? What are you, male or female? 00:48:54
What's your? 00:48:58
What? 00:49:01
Why do we need to know that? How's that going to apply? And if it doesn't, can we? Let's I say let's eliminate it if it's not. 00:49:02
Useful information as I'm trying to call this down to where people will. 00:49:09
Not be incentivized not to take it. 00:49:13
So those demographic questions unfortunately. 00:49:16
Place to be taken. 00:49:19
Because those are the ways that we ensure that we. 00:49:21
Representative sample of cities. 00:49:23
We want to make sure that we're balanced across age, across socioeconomic status. So demographically, those are some data points 00:49:25
that. 00:49:29
To the extent that we can get people to answer them, we need that data. 00:49:33
My point would be though, I mean from my standpoint, what I really care about is. 00:49:41
How do you feel about arose? How do you feel about our police? How do you know? How did that trending? And I don't particularly 00:49:46
care. 00:49:49
What gender you are, how much money you make if you're a resident. 00:49:52
That's what I care about. Info. 00:49:56
Just a little bit. 00:49:59
The danger? 00:50:01
Is if we don't gather that information, if we don't know? 00:50:03
What age our residents are or what income bracket they're in. 00:50:07
There could be a group that were systematically underrepresented. 00:50:11
I think their attitudes are significantly different in regards to police or roads or city services byways. 00:50:14
Sidewalks. 00:50:22
We want to know, Yeah, OK. But we've got a representative. OK. Yeah, All right. I'm just looking at it as we go through this and 00:50:23
trying to figure out a way to. 00:50:28
Steve, we could you know if. 00:50:34
If people are going to take it, great, but my first? 00:50:36
Impressions. It seems really long, yeah. And so this case. 00:50:39
So the survey as it stands now is probably around 18 minutes. And how long would you recommend ideally we're staying? 00:50:44
Around 15. 00:50:57
That would put us cutting. 00:50:59
You would be surprised how much residents want to talk about the city they live in though, so we can usually get away with 12 to 00:51:02
15 minutes for something that is. 00:51:06
Close to residents hearts and. 00:51:11
We have a lot of. 00:51:13
Of goodwill and civic duty to draw on for this type of research here. So we've had success with that in the past. 00:51:14
But adding. 00:51:21
All of these new lines of questioning. 00:51:23
Would present some difficulties, I think for overall completion rates, so. 00:51:25
Looking for some areas where we would need to trim back. We're probably looking at cutting a series of five to six questions 00:51:31
ideally. The clubs and groups section I think is. 00:51:36
Helpful, but not that. 00:51:42
Yeah, well, I was reading through that, my first question. 00:51:43
Was why do they need this and now second? 00:51:47
Was this moving? Feels a little bit invasive. 00:51:51
OK, I think it probably. 00:51:54
Came from the. Yeah, I can see right, Yeah. 00:51:58
Right, but I have the same. 00:52:05
Reaction not about the invasiveness. So Mike is just. 00:52:08
It would be nice to know, but I'm not sure it's poor. 00:52:11
If we need to trim it that second area, yeah. 00:52:15
Can I ask the question in advice to? 00:52:19
The demographics, and obviously I came in late so you probably already heard this, but. 00:52:22
Do you have like maybe just a quick explanation on why we need the demographics? I feel like if we just tell them like we need a 00:52:26
representative sample. 00:52:30
I'd like that to. 00:52:35
You know, appease some of that part of people, you know, being nervous about sharing information and the government still either 00:52:36
like, yes, that's a great idea. Yeah. Before we dive into any of those demographic questions, we do have a preface that says. 00:52:44
We have a few remaining questions for you to ensure that we have a representative sample of Holiday City residents. 00:52:51
Remember that your responses will be kept strictly confidential. These are for statistical purposes only, OK? 00:52:57
So some of these sections too like. 00:53:04
I feel like we're asking. 00:53:07
I feel like we could just ask maybe one question on streetlights or like there's somewhere we're asking lots of different 00:53:10
questions and maybe we could just. 00:53:14
Annual St. glands are a tricky example there, but I understand what you're saying. 00:53:18
The other one about why accent lighting was wondering about. 00:53:28
You know, trying to get a measure of. 00:53:33
If they care enough about the issue that they're going to have the city Reg. 00:53:37
Won't accept my as opposed to just because that's really the issue. 00:53:41
Is whether or not. 00:53:45
Citizens would be tolerant of the city engaging in. 00:53:48
That sort of. 00:53:51
Very personal regulation of foam accelerating. 00:53:53
Because it might be too bright, might be too dim, might be not not care, might might care a lot, but. 00:53:57
You care enough. 00:54:03
That you're willing to subject yourself to city regulation. 00:54:05
That's really. 00:54:08
Core issue there. I get any apps too about like sport ports and stuff like that then. 00:54:09
Pack that bike. 00:54:15
Broad match conclude. 00:54:20
One that I think. 00:54:31
If we were to broaden it, I think it distills the usefulness of the information that we're getting in anyone regard. So I don't 00:54:34
know if there's a way to. 00:54:40
Succinctly. 00:54:46
Expand that, but still get good quality data that addresses these questions. 00:54:48
Maybe it is. 00:54:53
Just down to what? 00:54:55
Types of. 00:54:56
Private property features residents feel the city should be allowed to regulate and that could be sort of a multiple choice 00:55:00
approach. 00:55:04
With none of the above option, because maybe they don't care strongly enough about any of these things. 00:55:09
Got it. 00:55:16
So if I could talk just a moment about how? 00:55:27
How the process we use to come up with a list that you see in front of you? 00:55:30
So Holly and I met with Kyrene and looked at the survey as a. 00:55:34
When has gone out in prior years? 00:55:40
And then we tried to think of other priority issues and areas of interest of the Council. 00:55:43
And then Kareem. 00:55:51
Suggested some questions to us. We may have gotten this wrong. 00:55:53
So home accent lighting. 00:55:57
We may have a different direction now than we had two months ago. 00:56:00
We're completely open if there are areas that you don't want to ask. 00:56:06
You feel like you have the information you need. We can certainly take those out. 00:56:11
I'm worse concerned about the lane. 00:56:17
And you would know better which question is. 00:56:23
However you feel. 00:56:35
That we can still meet the objectives to get information that we needed. 00:56:37
So that's a great question. We had some conversation about that today. One of our challenges we had intended to go in the field, I 00:56:44
think. 00:56:48
Yeah. 00:56:54
We have a questionnaire for the general plan that has also is also being shared with residents and we thought that could be a 00:56:56
little confusing, so Kyrie came up with. 00:57:01
A better time frame today. 00:57:07
So our suggested timeline to make sure that we're not stepping on toes or confusing residents with multiple surveys fielding at 00:57:09
St. 00:57:13
Is that the week after the general planned survey that's currently on the website has closed? 00:57:16
Is when we will send out or residents will start receiving invitations to participate in this survey. 00:57:22
We'll also have. 00:57:28
A short explanation in the invitation language that says. 00:57:29
If you participated in the General Plan survey, we appreciate your input. This is a longitudinal study that the community has been 00:57:34
doing for years, and we're looking to track some of the aspects of quality of life and holiday overtime. 00:57:40
Your participation in a scientific survey is very important. 00:57:47
So hopefully that. 00:57:50
Encourages participation without detracting participation in the general plan survey and allows us to. 00:57:51
To get that good representative sample that we need. 00:57:58
Are you concerned at all about the? 00:58:00
The overall related shell shock. 00:58:04
Lots of citizens are presently in. 00:58:06
And how that could skew results. 00:58:08
Well. 00:58:11
In conversational. 00:58:19
Was immediately. 00:58:22
Height of the pandemic. 00:58:23
And he saw in some of our quality of life ratings, just overall sentiment. 00:58:26
Residents up and down the WASAF front, not unique to holiday. 00:58:33
Residents were a little bit. 00:58:37
Grouchy, a little bit more pessimistic than they have been in here. 00:58:39
I wouldn't be surprised if you see some of that in the general sentiment question with one of the survey. But when we get into the 00:58:43
specific city service issues when we're looking at. 00:58:48
Sidewalks of streetlights and those things that. 00:58:53
Are a little bit closer to home for residents. I don't expect that we'll see that same effect. 00:58:55
Translate in ways that is, that are. 00:59:01
Misleading. 00:59:05
Presumably the general plan survey questions. 00:59:07
And there's no, I need to go through the general plan questionnaire a little bit more closely or Gina sent that over to me today. 00:59:11
So I'll make sure we don't have any. 00:59:16
Unnecessary overlap there. 00:59:22
There are again some of our longitudinal questions. They might have some similarities. 00:59:25
And I would want to keep those in place here anyway because that is how we've been tracking the health of the city overtime. 00:59:30
If we do, I'm looking at the 2022. 00:59:38
Did we do one prior to that as well? Did we do that? 00:59:42
So I mean to me. 00:59:48
A couple of things. 00:59:54
1 is when can we expect? 00:59:55
For White 2 to present the results of. 00:59:58
That's the other things that I talked about today. So we're planning on the 1st Council meeting in April is that we would share 01:00:01
results. 01:00:05
One comment I have is your budget. Yeah, this is a great like first presentation. 01:00:09
You know, and the Gina will come in. 01:00:16
You know, we'll start having a tentative budget, but I think it's great for the Council. 01:00:18
To have a baseline of kind of where things are at, but. 01:00:23
What's most important to me about the survey results is because some of these questions, honestly, you know what the answer is 01:00:26
going to be, right? 01:00:29
Yeah, yeah, your roads could be better, yeah. 01:00:34
But what is the? 01:00:37
I'm really interested in. 01:00:39
What the trending is? 01:00:41
Over. I don't know what's a, you know, can we compare? 01:00:43
19/22/25 and the you know, see what our residents feel about. 01:00:46
The direction of the city. 01:00:53
And get a sense of. 01:00:55
Give ourselves an honest appraisal of what our residents think about the job we're doing or where they think we should be. 01:00:58
Focusing our resources as we enter this budget season, I think that's really helpful information for the. 01:01:07
In that section at the front of the survey where we finally minimal treatment. 01:01:13
Or three through quickly. Those are the things that we are being longitudinally that we will be able to report. 01:01:18
How it has changed, if at all, since 2017? 01:01:23
Yeah, I mean, I would have to leave it to. I mean, I agree with them. I'll leave. 01:01:27
I don't want to go through this thing question by question, but if we could, if you guys could go through it and say? 01:01:32
With the goal of seeing if we could. 01:01:38
Could get the survey down to 1314 minute time frame but still get. 01:01:41
Really good information for us, I think that would be great. But I think for us the most important thing, at least for me, is I 01:01:46
want to see that. 01:01:50
Comparative data and get a real sense of. 01:01:54
Where our community thinks we are going and. 01:01:57
How we're doing and. 01:02:01
Where they'd like to see us focus and. 01:02:02
Where they want us to commit more resources, less resources. 01:02:05
Point taken. And Kyrene, sorry to interrupt. No, please. But what's also very helpful and you've done this in the past. 01:02:10
Is also give us just kind of your general view of. 01:02:16
How this relates to other? 01:02:23
Municipalities that you survey, you know how you think holiday ranks in that regard too, Because I know it's not an exact science, 01:02:26
right? So. 01:02:30
Yeah. 01:02:35
So I think the. 01:02:43
The question. 01:02:44
Is pulling the nose. 01:02:45
Benchmarking questions so. 01:02:50
We've been using for a. 01:02:51
Some time now. 01:02:53
Are there? 01:02:55
New lines of inquiry that we've added. 01:02:56
That should be deprioritized. Is there something that is very high priority to the Council that. 01:02:59
We have missed. 01:03:05
As we've aggregated these questions that we should remove some of these things and refocus our attention. 01:03:07
Doctor, do you want to ask? 01:03:13
We have a set of sustainability questions and those were some that we cut for time, so we can go back and make that shift if 01:03:30
there's something else that you would prefer to cut instead. 01:03:35
We're out of this or that point in this survey, so. 01:03:41
To be it's an important issue. 01:03:45
Hey, you've just added three questions. 01:03:52
Yeah, so. 01:03:57
All right, So scrapping clubs and groups, adding the sustainability section back, we can work from that. 01:04:09
So wherever we started, yeah, we're basically adding events, so. 01:04:18
So seems like. 01:04:24
There are several questions that are. 01:04:26
Sort of overlapping. 01:04:29
And I know that, David. 01:04:31
That maybe. 01:04:34
We can go through any which one which reason is more something than the other. Sure, I'm happy to go through and make 01:04:36
recommendations as to how we can streamline within topics, but if there are? 01:04:42
Again, any of these issues that we could deprioritize or shelf for a moment, those are the things that we'd like to know because. 01:04:49
While we can shave off a question here and there, eliminating some of those redundancies. 01:04:57
A new block of questions is carrying more weight than than slimming things down in other places. 01:05:03
Typically so. 01:05:10
Maybe this was extended with the illness. 01:05:12
But I wondered. 01:05:14
Probably it could be updated to. 01:05:22
And we can revisit that. I'll make sure that we are maintaining some parity with the the census distribution. 01:05:26
So it sounds like you'd like us to just go back and focus rather than. 01:05:35
Other than clubs, eliminate any. 01:05:42
Section that we've identified one of the nice like interesting versus usable kind of a thing. 01:05:45
Even if it gets down to. 01:05:54
Usable for core services. 01:05:57
If we have to go between necessary and useful. 01:05:59
OK. 01:06:10
Well, that sounds like you should get some time on the calendar with. 01:06:14
Sounds like it. 01:06:18
We'll look at something next week. 01:06:20
That sounds good. 01:06:24
I think then yeah, this just brings us to our demographic functions at the end of the survey, so. 01:06:26
Any other questions or comments for me before we go put our notes Absolutely right so. 01:06:32
How many municipalities do you present? 01:06:38
All of the municipalities that went to works with but I would have to do a quick mentality. 01:06:43
Work somewhere in the realm of 20 cities. 01:06:48
Some rotation, some of them are annually, some of them are biannually. 01:06:53
So you're very fast and use these questions. I'm assuming we have like. 01:06:56
We thought you're not reinventing. We're not reinventing the wheel as. 01:07:01
As often as possible there are some of the some of the topics. 01:07:06
That Holly and Gina had us introduced this year. We did not have standardized questions or from other communities. So there are a 01:07:10
few places here and there where. 01:07:14
We really. 01:07:19
Are tailoring something specific to holiday? But for the most part we do want to create something that is comparable to what we're 01:07:20
doing in other communities. 01:07:24
Well, thank you all for your time. 01:07:32
Thank you. Thanks so much. 01:07:35
The work is in the details on that fix for the holiday. Again, that's like. 01:07:40
It's really cool. 01:07:46
Integrity was fantastic. 01:07:49
Always do your stairs. 01:07:56
But like some of my business stuff. 01:08:00
What businesses come in and out of here, I guess. 01:08:04
And can do that if you could information for and. 01:08:07
He needs to go and bring. 01:08:12
Trying to recruit. 01:08:15
Some kind of business or businesses that are missing in the city. 01:08:17
And that's exactly the purpose for that question. 01:08:21
She's going to target her like a boutique, yeah. 01:08:26
Yeah, that's frustrating. Things for me is like. 01:08:31
They're going to tell you, oh, we want better restaurants in the city. 01:08:36
But we don't want more people to live in the city. It's like, well. 01:08:40
Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well. 01:08:46
We can't. 01:08:50
Nice places to shop. People need to go shop there to keep them in business and so there's this. 01:08:51
Anyway, umm. 01:08:57
All right. 01:08:59
Sure. So this came. 01:09:01
I'm trying to go back on this. As we were talking we had some. 01:09:04
Residents coming in and. 01:09:08
Talking about, you know, this new. 01:09:10
Ockerland, yes. 01:09:13
Yes, I think that. I think the two new homes on Walker Lane and Cottonwood Lane. 01:09:16
Or two that kind of spurred. 01:09:23
Start, but the discussion started before that, right? This has been. 01:09:25
Kind of brewing. 01:09:29
Residential properties treat. 01:09:33
Lighting is concerned. 01:09:36
We've historically had. 01:09:38
Commercial lighting standards that protect residential powers from development. 01:09:40
So now with the. 01:09:46
Readily available product. 01:09:47
Lights, they're so cheap and they're learning different color spectrums. 01:09:50
They're becoming. 01:09:55
From a resident's point of view, and he learned a nuisance between neighbor and neighbor only a commercial property. 01:09:57
Your Planning Commission right now currently reviews. 01:10:04
All site planets for planning standards, they go through a limited study to find out where the property lots. 01:10:07
Necklords are 7 lift. 01:10:13
Never had them. 01:10:15
Required of the lighting standard or lighting study but. 01:10:17
So in your packet is a staff report, but also. 01:10:21
Two different draft ordinances. 01:10:26
That you can take a look at in. 01:10:28
One of them is a draft ordinance that basically will just insert. 01:10:31
Into the residential zones. 01:10:37
There's a table in the staff report that shows. 01:10:40
Its own commercial properties and what the lighting standards are there. 01:10:43
And we would just do something similar. 01:10:48
Taking the draft ordinance at the end of the packet and just inserting it into the art. 01:10:50
Cheap clubs. 01:10:55
The second set of draft verdicts is something that would probably be recommended. 01:10:58
Definitely by my department. 01:11:04
Holistic Review. 01:11:06
We remove all of the lighting standards from all of the zones and create one location. 01:11:08
You know it has its own chapter in title. 01:11:13
Their title and chapter that addresses residential commercial properties. 01:11:15
More holistic with you. So that's what you would put Frankie. 01:11:19
Yeah, why? 01:11:23
That one is because we have the opportunity to take a look at how all properties are addressed together. 01:11:25
Rather than having to address specific standard specific zones because you're getting to the point where there shouldn't be 01:11:31
specialized. 01:11:35
Lighting standards for specific. 01:11:40
You know, commercials, online and residential properties. 01:11:42
There still is residential standards in that second section, the second draft code. 01:11:45
And then all the other commercial problems are through the left there. 01:11:49
Standard, but then that gives us an opportunity to. 01:11:53
Provide a developer or property owner as to examples of. 01:11:57
What a full cutoff blood. 01:12:01
How can pedestrian lighting work more properly or properly as far as. 01:12:05
Security. 01:12:09
And also accident fighting. 01:12:11
It gives you the opportunity to take a look at citywide. 01:12:13
The spectrum or the Kelvin range of what light is that is. 01:12:17
One of the in terms of implementation, unfortunately we're talking about. 01:12:24
The review for. 01:12:29
The new remodels, building permits or does it? 01:12:31
Place an onus on existing. 01:12:35
Lighting where you have to then go in. 01:12:37
Code enforcement comes around and say that's no good anymore. It's been there for 20 years. Yeah, there's existing lighting. We'd 01:12:41
be recommending a nuisance enforcement. 01:12:45
That it provides a nuisance issue based upon the standards that are in here and the glare. 01:12:49
You know, opposing traffic that has a problem with. 01:12:56
Confusing traffic with. 01:13:01
In pedestrian. 01:13:03
Blockability issues from driving down the street if that glare is actually so bright you can't see. 01:13:05
Happens anymore because you drive up and down. 01:13:10
Most of the streets in the city. 01:13:15
Especially and even in the area. 01:13:17
There's a lot of. 01:13:20
Residential. 01:13:21
Lighting. It's on gates and fences and such. 01:13:22
The difference between those that are more acceptable and others that are might be. 01:13:27
And more pragmatic is the color. 01:13:32
And that's what would be. 01:13:34
Interested. I have the enforcement. 01:13:36
For construction, it would be anything. It would be the new construction. So a difference in new builds. Yeah, we need to have a 01:13:39
lighting plan show. 01:13:42
What's being proposed as far as security in the accent, that new construction, new remodel, that's an easier course because it's 01:13:47
in process. 01:13:51
Enforcing the new standards. 01:13:55
Existing that may have been for years and years and years and all of a sudden. 01:13:58
If you did. 01:14:07
I'm still, yeah. 01:14:12
But but it would be case by case based off of reported, correct? 01:14:16
And we define what the news we would do nothing unless there's no claim, essentially. 01:14:21
On existing. 01:14:26
You'd have to have if it's providing a nuisance issue, but they would what they would require the property to do. 01:14:31
Is to sort of register a non compliant. 01:14:38
Situation. 01:14:41
So whenever you have a new ordinance that's provided. 01:14:42
And that creates non compliance. 01:14:45
Situations like an Adu or a house. 01:14:48
We need to know when that was actually put in place. 01:14:51
If it's creating a nuisance with that new situation that's you have to implicit, you're equally at cost. 01:14:55
Yeah, 'cause I was looking at this like. 01:15:02
Any permit? 01:15:05
From the adoption point forward. 01:15:08
Would have to comply with these standards. 01:15:10
But what you're saying is? 01:15:13
We're going to put Nords in place. 01:15:15
Allows us to enforce non compliance. 01:15:19
That's from a grandfathered standpoint, like. 01:15:23
That's what's being proposed, yeah. 01:15:25
So the example is maybe like a safety issue, Rebel light, but the glare thing was blocked and carrying visibility pedestrians, 01:15:28
yes, today we couldn't do anything about it. Have anything that has a public nuisance factor for lighting. 01:15:35
Yeah. So, Mayor, I would look at it a little bit differently. I would think you would put a new ordinance in place to regulate new 01:15:43
construction for. 01:15:47
Permit required changes. 01:15:51
And then for things that exist prior to that overnight, you wouldn't unfortunately get into those unless you're creating public. 01:15:54
And as opposed to looking at your ordinance standards to define if they're non compliant, you would. 01:16:03
You would have to rely on the public nuisance standard and that's a tough standard to me, to be honest with you. Come on. 01:16:10
The situation would have to be extreme to take enforcement action against something like that. Yeah. And that's the main. 01:16:16
Right. And that's the existing condition in the law, right? 01:16:25
To be honest with you. 01:16:28
We wouldn't enforce it, but a neighbor can enforce. 01:16:29
A nuisance type situation against their neighbor. 01:16:32
Through independent action, this would allow the city. 01:16:36
To get involved in that, but our standard to get involved is really high. 01:16:39
And the circumstances where I think we would jump into something like that. 01:16:43
Would be pretty rare. 01:16:47
What it does do? 01:16:48
Is it creates that additional burden where? 01:16:50
The neighbor can now say, as opposed to us being able to tell them, look, this is a private issue, you've got it resolved. 01:16:53
They can lean on the city to say you need to enforce the nuisance standard of your ordinance. 01:16:59
That's a pressure point that's hard, and it's the Disney standard specified. Like, would there be? 01:17:04
Some specification of what that meant in the lighting section. 01:17:09
It's a common law, kind of with Phoenix. 01:17:13
And that common law standard is high again. 01:17:16
The concern that I think the Council should have that I have. 01:17:19
Is that that's your point of citizens not saying? 01:17:23
You need to enforce the nuisance part because under your niche then. 01:17:25
That constant pressure plays hard. 01:17:31
It's hard on your staff. 01:17:35
It's hard on you taking all the calls. 01:17:36
That, you know, that's just one of those points that I think as you start to look at regulations like this, you have to think, 01:17:38
Tom. 01:17:41
So sorry you were saying that as it stands though. 01:17:44
They'd have to take. 01:17:47
Private action medium which has to come to terms or. 01:17:48
They right now a neighbor could sue another neighbor over. 01:17:51
A life situation that creates enough of a nuisance that you would say that's just too much, right? 01:17:56
That exists a lot right now. 01:18:01
We don't necessarily have a right to get involved in that unless it's. 01:18:04
Creating some kind of a public safety habit, the hazard that is beyond just neighbor, neighbor. 01:18:09
But it's broader, right? And and that again, if you think about that, that's pretty extreme situation. 01:18:13
That does make sense. 01:18:18
So. 01:18:21
I mean, what we're getting at that here opens up a can of worms. 01:18:24
For homes that were built prior to the ordinance going in place right, we're. 01:18:29
We're OK with OK going forward. 01:18:34
And I think what Emily was getting at was. 01:18:36
Was. 01:18:39
Standards. Umm. 01:18:41
1:00 and 2:00 because I look at the same way, I'm like, I thought you'd want to go to standards 1 because standard 2 would be 01:18:43
like. 01:18:45
Put all this pressure on staffing and what you're saying is the opposite. We'd rather have more. 01:18:49
Control at the outset to take a look at what the lighting plan is for home and say, hey, here's what you can and can't do. Or you 01:18:53
tell them what they can and can't do, but then you have a chance to look at it, say you need to. 01:18:59
True. Tweet these things if you're comfortable with what. 01:19:05
Has a very high standard. 01:19:13
And it's being, I mean, we tweak every single one of the ordinances if there's an amendment is difficult rather than trying to 01:19:17
just change one section. 01:19:22
Having zones to point to your outdoor lighting section as your. 01:19:27
Force as far as amendments, or at least. 01:19:32
People protection unequal education is that. 01:19:36
Independent of whether or not we decided to include residential areas, would that be helpful? 01:19:40
Anyway, yes. 01:19:45
So John, can you talk a little bit about? 01:19:48
Staff time that would be involved in reviewing these new plans. 01:19:52
And then whether we expect any resident pushback to a professionally developed and submitted fighting plan? 01:19:56
Yeah. So right now over the past five years. 01:20:05
Plan review as. 01:20:10
Both and required to be expedited. 01:20:12
But also lengthened because we have now landscaping plans and other architectural use that we have go through. 01:20:15
So reviewing the additional lighting plan would add. 01:20:21
At least 1/2 an hour of reach half the sight line, which doesn't seem very much, but when you're having to go through. 01:20:24
Multiples through the summer and it does data so there is there is a cost required there for the staff review. 01:20:30
Cost of the South and then the cost of the residence, everything. 01:20:36
Yeah, right. 01:20:44
Is that the same for? 01:20:46
Standard one and standard 2 or the standard one? Basically standard one just provides both the. 01:20:50
Give me you can go to the manufacturer of the. 01:20:56
Picture in Mumbai we have a cut sheet. 01:20:59
That we can review that. 01:21:03
So specifically what we look at when we have professionals involved. 01:21:09
Is that just like an architect you know we have? 01:21:14
The ability to defend a decision whether or not a plan complies with the code it's been designed by professionally. 01:21:18
And not just reviewed by staff and making the determination. 01:21:25
So I think maybe I was misunderstanding the standards or the levels because it sounds like what you're saying is? 01:21:30
The level 1. 01:21:38
Is dealing with. 01:21:40
Just to really face like a really straightforward standard of. 01:21:42
Level of things I know that people can buy. 01:21:48
Is there a way you could? 01:21:50
Create similar straightforwardness. 01:21:53
And and still also create what you're talking about like. 01:21:57
Citywide lighting standards or is that not yes. So if you look at the the level 2. 01:22:00
Yeah, isn't it? 01:22:07
For the end. 01:22:13
There's a residential only section. 01:22:25
And that somewhat mirrors what the level 1 standard is. 01:22:29
There is so soon he will stay glad in families or single family zones. 01:22:36
So you have a full cutoff type, fixture height and maximum height through soffits. 01:22:41
Our lighting fixtures develop the seat height of 12 feet. 01:22:46
An illumination standard with a spectrum elevation and then. 01:22:49
Switching controls. 01:22:54
And that's pretty minimal. 01:22:55
Everyone has to hire lighting professional or add an extra. The lighting pressure is in the commercial section. 01:22:58
Oh, that's in the site plan review. Yes, practically what does that look like? Is that something where? 01:23:06
General contractor. 01:23:13
Has a lagging professional that does that for them. 01:23:14
Or is it is a? 01:23:18
President for having to go out and find. 01:23:20
A light and professional to do the review. 01:23:23
Generally the the architect who's making your plans. 01:23:26
Bring your mind to have connection. 01:23:29
It's usually a pretty simple gift. 01:23:32
But would that be another person? It would be another person they would have to hire. 01:23:35
Burdensome. 01:23:40
He seemed like he can't get anything done for less than 1000 bucks. Yeah, correct. 01:23:43
If there was a way. 01:23:51
To make a more straightforward plan then you could. 01:23:52
Address. I don't see how they're related. Maybe this is what I'm starting this? 01:23:57
You've got the complex. 01:24:02
Option where you have the light pressure will go in and customize everything. 01:24:04
But then I don't know how that relates to. 01:24:08
Creating a unified citywide. 01:24:12
Lighting 30. 01:24:14
You've got standards and you've got construction of the ordinance, right? 01:24:17
The actual Fighting standards. Simple, complex. 01:24:21
And how you construct it in code? 01:24:25
Spread out through all the zones or. 01:24:28
Consolidated, there's something to be two different. 01:24:30
Thanks. Yeah, yeah. 01:24:33
Because we can make the standard straightforward so that people aren't having to hire a light professional and you guys taking 01:24:36
extra time, but then take those straightforward standards. 01:24:41
And create. 01:24:47
What you were talking about about like over a? 01:24:48
No, I don't totally understand. 01:24:54
And as long as you're comfortable with staff reviewing things that the individuals who are like the last. 01:24:56
Point of contact to be doing all this. 01:25:01
Compliance. Absolutely, yeah. 01:25:05
I'm not a lying professional. I'm Steve. 01:25:09
Well, I know what can be garish as far as safety problem. 01:25:12
And what could? 01:25:19
Basically cause a problem across neighbors but. 01:25:20
A good example that I think I showed Gina a while back. 01:25:24
Some lighting fixtures were placed on a House of Renewed. 01:25:28
It was the element on the inside that we really didn't know how intense that. 01:25:33
Light was, I mean it was under the 4000 Kelvin level, so it was in a warmer light spectrum. 01:25:37
But it had the wattage intensity of probably only three or 400 Watt bulb. 01:25:44
And it was shining directly in the neighbor's property. 01:25:49
I didn't have the. 01:25:54
Details on that cut sheet to show me what the effective reflective light would be. 01:25:56
Only just a couple of times standard. 01:26:01
Design parameters of what the color and what the intensity would be. 01:26:04
So were you saying, John, without some specificity in the ordinance, it's going to put you in a position where you're making 01:26:09
subjective determinations that maybe? 01:26:14
I think you know, maybe you're not. 01:26:20
Bring a hammer to a screwdriver guy. 01:26:28
A handful of times it might happen. 01:26:35
Yeah, how often is this? The only lagging questions I've ever had is Moore Street. People wanted more streetlights. That's the 01:26:39
only thing that I ever hear in Lighting Minds. I've never had any. 01:26:43
Links about learning and things like that. I'm sure it happens. 01:26:48
Other questions How many new builds do we? 01:26:51
Are we open here? I forget is it we have around 3030? I had said that for yourself. 01:26:54
And we averaged for complaints. 01:27:00
Uh, no more than. 01:27:05
Dozen a year per year. 01:27:06
Yeah, that's tough. It's like one of those deals where. 01:27:09
You think? 01:27:12
You don't necessarily have a law for everything, right? 01:27:13
Can I just raise my point? 01:27:19
Just kind of looking forward maybe. 01:27:21
I think this is an important discussion. I understand the problem. 01:27:25
The desire to regulate this particular issue. 01:27:30
I don't know how it would be received by. 01:27:34
Builders, I know how it will be received by the general development community. 01:27:39
They would look at this as a step backwards as opposed to forwards. 01:27:45
Along the lines of what they're trying to get to in the law, It was a couple of years ago where? 01:27:50
There is a statutory. 01:27:55
Prohibition against regulating design elements. 01:27:57
And structures and I. 01:28:01
Proceed this. 01:28:03
Next year being added to that kind of list. 01:28:05
Something like that. 01:28:08
I think you could generally get a fairly strong reaction to this type of an ordinance. 01:28:10
It just kind of. 01:28:17
I think it would be characterized as. 01:28:18
A step backwards in that little broad spectrum of city regulation about. 01:28:21
Residential development as opposed to a step further. 01:28:26
So behind that, is there also a recommendation here? 01:28:31
Making with regard to. 01:28:35
I haven't tried to dive into the ordinance in every detail and look at every part. 01:28:37
I don't necessarily have. 01:28:45
Tremendous, I guess I would say hesitancy about regulating the lighting on these structures. 01:28:50
In a way that's reasonable. One of the things I hear all the time. 01:28:55
Is you're making me spend another 1500 or $2000? 01:28:59
With the plan for my remodel. 01:29:05
Or my house at all. 01:29:07
That adding another design professional is a big thing. 01:29:09
Right now. 01:29:13
I know you said. 01:29:16
Like. 01:29:18
To me, I guess because it's not massive. 01:29:21
Problem. I'd rather. 01:29:25
I'd rather have that approach than. 01:29:27
Requiring everybody to hire another professional and. 01:29:30
Yeah. And then to address the. 01:29:33
The principles of concern, you know about light trespass and and that. 01:29:37
If if your lighting design ends up. 01:29:44
Once installed. 01:29:48
You know, having a polite trespass problem the city. 01:29:50
Supportive of your neighbor's complaint. 01:29:55
You know, sort of thing where he doesn't put so much detail bonus on you guys. 01:29:57
But rather to encourage. 01:30:04
Conscientiousness as opposed to. 01:30:07
Overspecific prescription. 01:30:11
I think part of like this. 01:30:14
Came to the Council. 01:30:16
Community Compliance. 01:30:20
Well, two houses on Walker, but we've got one on Lakewood too. 01:30:25
That was built. That's got a. 01:30:31
Probably 20 foot peak like this and it's got these. 01:30:34
What do you call those thoughts at live to them and when they turn them on, it's like a Christmas tree and so it. 01:30:37
And so, but there are specific instances where, and I think what the Council is saying is. 01:30:43
Yeah, we've had specific instances that are problem, but do we want to? 01:30:48
Then go put in an ordinance that requires us to. 01:30:53
Hire a design professional which sounds like an. 01:30:56
We don't want to do that. Yeah. So I guess the question back to you, John, is? 01:31:00
Is there a more? 01:31:05
Is there any way that those? 01:31:08
Situations could have been avoided a little bit without taking a hammer. 01:31:11
To the ordinance and maybe there's not I don't know maybe we just have to even an educational PC. That's funny Mayor and John and 01:31:15
this last week went about two weeks in this Adu issue. 01:31:20
Where I love this line that this. 01:31:25
Constituent gave, he said. You know, dispute, I think it was. 01:31:27
Very justified his dissatisfaction with seeing you. 01:31:31
He told his neighbor. He said, look, you may have complied with. 01:31:34
The with holidays. 01:31:37
Law or rule? 01:31:41
But you didn't. 01:31:43
I would love to see it. 01:31:46
Where when builders come in or you know, or whatever, the first thing they should say is. 01:31:48
Think about the golden rule when you're building the home, yeah, or whatever. And that's. 01:31:53
The PowerPoint, you know, if we could address the principle wise and. 01:31:56
If there's some way, it's a. 01:32:00
I don't know. I know it's more of a persuasion rather than. 01:32:02
That we handle the law and whatever. 01:32:04
Call attention to these things best practices. 01:32:06
And we want to build our home. Those sofa lights are our builder discourse it because. 01:32:09
I think the exact discussion was that I like that, yeah. And I think the primary concern from staff would be. 01:32:13
It's not like you're inspecting something like as it's being built for compliance. 01:32:20
You're having to wait until the. 01:32:26
Are installed powered on at night to see. 01:32:28
It's like I know it when I see it type of situation. 01:32:32
So good stuff. And curtain would be what you said 12 completely right. Yeah, I think of that. 01:32:37
I could run the report, I'm not sure sure, it doesn't seem like it's. 01:32:42
That's not existing. Largely not existing. 01:32:49
Yeah. 01:32:53
It's largely on. 01:32:55
Version of existing lighting. Usually we'll get. 01:32:57
Individual who's installed with a spotlight or a ring Cam. 01:33:00
About those are pointed so very. 01:33:03
Egregiously the biggest obstacle. 01:33:07
I mean, it's justifiable. I mean, I think from a negative externality kind of thing, light trespasses. 01:33:10
There's a, there's a property, right? That's kind of to a degree. 01:33:16
But I agree, we could make it. 01:33:23
Not the hammer. 01:33:25
And more principle based, is that helpful? Sure. I mean if that's something that we want to take to the Planning Commission for 01:33:27
this Level 1 standard? 01:33:31
We can just insert that right in through. 01:33:36
And the R1 and R2 are the zones. 01:33:38
And it will address your concern with your nonperforming fixtures in that section that talks about. 01:33:42
Anything that would be installed at the time of this. 01:33:48
Adoption. Umm. 01:33:51
It would be grandfathers, essentially. 01:33:52
Non conforming by fixture. 01:33:54
When would you feel comfortable with that type of review? 01:34:01
Do you feel like your staff have the qualifications to do that type of review? 01:34:07
My staff is not trained at elimination. 01:34:13
Reviews. 01:34:17
But if I have a standard that says it has to be 4000 Kelvin and I have a cut sheet of the fixture that says this light is. 01:34:19
Meets that standard. 01:34:27
We would have to accept it. 01:34:29
And then go out and verify that what actually gets installed. 01:34:30
And that would be as part of the inspection. 01:34:35
Of the occupancy section. When would we do that? A separate inspection? 01:34:40
So I thought this is only going to be. 01:34:47
We have to verify that it's been completed and it hasn't been completed or incomplete and. 01:34:53
Potentially fall back. 01:34:59
So we're adding staff time, let's say 1/2 an hour for 35. So it's. 01:35:01
A weakish. 01:35:07
Of time a little more than. 01:35:09
These are new builds that aren't really the problem. This isn't the retrofitted. 01:35:12
Those were a lot of the complaints are coming from. Is that right? 01:35:17
Well, the arts, Well, the year is. 01:35:21
Replacement of existing fixtures, but then we do have the. 01:35:24
The homes that decided to put. 01:35:27
Well, the issue is not necessarily homes whipping lighting, it's homes where there wasn't a house before. 01:35:29
Mm-hmm. This was these two lots on. 01:35:35
Monitor were part of the larger piece that was subdivided out and they were heavily wooded. 01:35:39
They never had really a resident right up on, residents right up on. 01:35:44
And then they went. 01:35:52
And then in terms of other staff costs, we'll have let's say A2 hour minimum for an inspection after hours. 01:35:54
Or they provide some Zola grandchild. 01:36:04
So it's. 01:36:10
It's not an inconsequential expenditure from a staff to my perspective. 01:36:12
Is there? Could could be? 01:36:18
Maybe like. 01:36:20
Rather than go for it, could we take the easing and approach and is there, is there an opportunity to have the conversation at 01:36:21
least on every new build? 01:36:25
That like a box that you check. Like we've talked to them about being conscientious of their writing. 01:36:29
We have what's called project information guides. They're not ordinance, they're not law, right? 01:36:35
They're sort of. 01:36:40
Like here's Energy Star appliances, you can put it in the house. 01:36:42
It's it's specifically talks about types of fixtures that. 01:36:46
Are generally accepted. 01:36:50
I could show you what that guide looks like. 01:36:52
What color spectrums you should select through outside lighting, but you're handing it to panicking on them reading of what's 01:36:54
probably not gonna happen. You're handing it to the owner or to the builder, or usually this to the builder. 01:37:00
And that's, I don't think that one. 01:37:07
How we do that effective I on houses? Honestly, I rarely. 01:37:09
Interactive stuff. 01:37:13
But you do interact with the builder and that's where again I don't know if there's ways where. 01:37:17
Your staff, you just, you know, maybe it's kind of a preemptive. 01:37:22
Part of your dialogue that you have on a regular basis. 01:37:28
That's 20 seconds rather than two hours after hours and. 01:37:31
On site inspections and stuff like that where it's just. 01:37:36
Somehow weaved into the process where it's a. 01:37:39
Point was discussed. 01:37:42
You know where there's a plea made for sure. 01:37:44
Trying to decide where we're at on this discussion. Well, I mean. 01:37:52
Fall back on what my recommendation because. 01:37:55
The ordinance for having outdoor lighting should be all in one place. 01:37:58
Rather than sporadic and inconsistent. 01:38:03
Food's on design. 01:38:05
I think we're all cool with that, yeah. 01:38:07
Sure, yes. 01:38:11
I guess at a really basic level I'd like to understand whether there is support to move forward. This would mean, because it's 01:38:13
affecting Title 13, would need to go to the Planning Commission first. 01:38:19
So it. 01:38:25
This will get. 01:38:27
There's a lot of time involved if the Council is not supportive conceptually. 01:38:29
I think Todd has given us some. 01:38:36
Another perspective to consider in terms of how this type of ordinance could be interpreted at a state level. 01:38:39
Is there support on the Council? 01:38:49
From 4 of you to move forward with this type of ordinance. 01:38:52
Does moving it all to one place in the code require going to the Planning Commission? 01:38:56
I don't think we're going to avoid that. 01:39:04
And. 01:39:07
I think we. 01:39:09
That's fine, but is what you're asking Gina is. 01:39:10
Making. 01:39:12
Fundamental changes to the code beyond that, that's going to. 01:39:14
Umm, really involve. 01:39:18
Dramatically changing. Maybe not dramatically, maybe not, but substantially changing. 01:39:21
Staff time and requiring. 01:39:27
A homeowner or builder to hire a lighting professional. 01:39:30
It doesn't seem like there's an app, but we're not there yet primarily. 01:39:34
Like trespass, Yeah, and instead of? 01:39:40
Getting overly technical on the fixtures, but rather. 01:39:43
If you have. 01:39:46
A light trespass of a certainly measurement or beyond. 01:39:47
The city would support. 01:39:53
Complaint against you. 01:39:54
Yeah. But I think we need to understand that they don't engage. They don't. 01:39:57
But that's that's going to be a very high thought. 01:40:06
To enforce that right like what what's life drops past I mean, and I don't know if that. 01:40:08
Bar would be quite. 01:40:13
Sort of just a general nuisance standard overall. 01:40:15
To define like the issue. 01:40:21
Without having to get into measuring what actually. 01:40:25
Yeah. 01:40:28
Usually they address it by just saying, look, your picture has to have. 01:40:29
The full cutoff would work. 01:40:33
I can't perceive the source of the light. 01:40:35
Across the horizon. 01:40:38
So if I'm standing below a fixture, that's where I see the light element, or if I'm above it at level or above it, then I don't. 01:40:40
Problems that we have soffit lights when you're 35 feet in the air and that. 01:40:47
Spotlight bulb is definitely. 01:40:52
The element that you're seeing we're proceeding. 01:40:55
And that could go across the street, that could go, you know, to the neighbor's property. 01:40:57
Yeah, so that doesn't solve the problem. 01:41:03
Just. 01:41:05
Because if it's too high. 01:41:08
You solve nothing. 01:41:09
And so the issue is the light trespass regardless of the fixture. 01:41:11
Is there a? 01:41:15
Recognize definition of like trespass that we believe. 01:41:16
There is Dark Sky Association does have them. 01:41:21
We can. We can definitely put it in there. 01:41:23
The issue is how to measure it. 01:41:26
With a violation. 01:41:28
So I'm either standing at a property line with a light either. 01:41:30
Measuring amount of Loomis coming out of that fixture morning receiving what that where the element is. 01:41:33
I think it's it's more or less the indiscriminate use of. It's an issue on the radio night path. 01:41:41
Yeah, I mean, I also don't want to be bleeding edge. 01:41:47
Inventing a wheel here. We're not that I'm trying to address the principle of the problem and not. 01:41:50
But but I don't know if there's a way to do that without reinventing it or creating a new wheel. 01:42:00
Is there really a dressing kind of in the nuisance? 01:42:07
Principle not I don't know that. 01:42:11
Well, like if your neighbors. Yeah, I think I know it's. 01:42:17
Property that and you just leave that. 01:42:22
Less. 01:42:25
Just like a rational man standard. 01:42:27
I don't know, leave it up to the enforcement officer to make that determination. Is that that's probably fully subjective. 01:42:30
Yeah, that sounds like no way. 01:42:38
And I think Tom would much rather have standard. 01:42:43
Well, I think I mean the issue is we're trying to. 01:42:46
We've had. 01:42:50
A handful of incidents that are a problem, right? And so now we're trying to. 01:42:52
What you know. 01:42:57
Break this code to address those issues and I think what? 01:42:58
Emily's trying to get into their way. 01:43:02
Say, hey, yeah, let's combine the codes to make it easy. But then can we? 01:43:05
Address those handful of incidents through. 01:43:08
You know. 01:43:12
Through a nuisance code and trying to get code enforcement to work with the neighbors to solve the problems rather than. 01:43:14
Take a hammer to it and create a whole book. 01:43:20
Regs regulation and and and burden property of, you know, burden people with. 01:43:24
Now we gotta. 01:43:29
Now we got a higher lighting professional and now we got to have somebody on staff to review what the code is and then they got to 01:43:31
go. 01:43:34
I mean that's the issue is we're. 01:43:37
Nobody wants to do that at this point. 01:43:40
We haven't reached the point where we have enough of an issue that we want to do that. 01:43:47
On the other hand. 01:43:53
There is kind of this thing that if you let someone in, put in the light. 01:43:54
And then they're like. 01:43:58
I got the permit I put in there. 01:44:01
A neighbors man in your town? 01:44:03
Change. 01:44:07
Yeah. 01:44:09
They you say this is the standard. 01:44:12
When you go during the day during. 01:44:16
Inspection. They say they've got the standard. 01:44:18
Then their neighbor complained six months later. 01:44:20
That they're not meeting the standard. 01:44:23
And so then it's back on you. You said you met the standard, you signed something or whatever saying I'm meeting this standard. 01:44:26
So putting it on them rather than on staff during the inspection. 01:44:33
OK. Yeah, you may clear the standard, but we're not going to expect to inspect it. But then if there's a complaint and you're out 01:44:38
of it. 01:44:43
What's the approach where they're given? 01:44:52
It's a lot of hearing officer time. 01:44:57
But and the standard would be a like trust that standard that. 01:45:00
A fixture stand. 01:45:05
I'm not sure where we are other than. 01:45:08
More efficiently cleaning up the code, but I don't think that does anything unless I'm wrong. 01:45:11
Of addressing the original problem we are trying to solve here, right? 01:45:19
What's that? 01:45:23
Fiesta relatively small. 01:45:25
Yeah, it's a. 01:45:27
It's an isolated problem. 01:45:29
And the Council doesn't have, I think I'm summarizing it, the council doesn't have the appetite. 01:45:31
To put in an overburden some code. 01:45:37
To handle what are pretty isolated issues in terms of lighting. 01:45:41
Yeah, even though we're empathetic to the situation, I mean. 01:45:47
Yeah. 01:45:51
Situation. 01:45:54
It's hard for a building inspector to. 01:45:57
Verified that the. 01:46:01
Contractor has done what contract? 01:46:03
I mean. 01:46:06
I keep going back to Emily's. 01:46:08
Idea of where? 01:46:10
They can say, OK, this is the lumens of the lighting we put in. 01:46:11
But then later down the road they find out that that was not the case. 01:46:17
So that would go to code enforcement, right? So the code enforcement come back and. 01:46:22
Say, hey, you know, you said that you put these lights on, but you, you installed these lights, but in fact you installed 01:46:27
different ones that are brighter and now your neighbors are mad. 01:46:32
Yes, that could definitely be something I would definitely foresee happen is you can go back to the original approved set. 01:46:38
Verify that that was an approved fixture was to be installed. 01:46:45
And then coming back and saying that doesn't match up, that's definitely something at least. 01:46:50
The code enforcement situation. 01:46:55
Right. Could you explain the hearing officer concerning movies? 01:46:58
Well, what I was talking about is if you. 01:47:01
You adopt A certain standard. 01:47:05
For the lighting in the city. 01:47:08
You know the staff approves it. 01:47:10
Then a neighbor comes back and says you should not have approved that it violates your standard. 01:47:12
That ends up going through an enforcement process that involves. 01:47:17
City hiring and administrative hearing officer. 01:47:21
To hear the dispute essentially between the parties with the city. 01:47:25
Presenting information. 01:47:28
Making a decision and there's a cost to the city. 01:47:30
In that we pay the hearing officer. 01:47:33
Their staff time involved. 01:47:35
Sometimes you have somebody from our office presenting on behalf of staff this particular area issue. 01:47:38
It there is a cost to the city in that whole process, I wasn't thinking of them approving the plan so much as saying this is the 01:47:43
light trespass standard. 01:47:48
That you need to comply with. 01:47:52
And then and then whether we approve the plan or we hand out a standard and we haven't adopted standard in the city, I think you 01:47:54
end up in a hearing is a position with that either way. 01:47:59
Not something where. 01:48:08
Officer Gallop goes out with his light meter, measures that he said no, sorry you didn't, this doesn't. 01:48:10
Sure, sure, we get that. But then we still probably end up in an enforcement process. 01:48:14
Either way, whether it's from a third party, property owner or neighbor. 01:48:18
Or the city enforcing the code. Whatever it may be, we probably end up in enforcement process others. 01:48:21
Yeah. Well, what's the cost of that? 01:48:27
Prepared to 1500 bucks per. 01:48:28
Right, by putting these standards. 01:48:32
Yeah, you don't get as many that end up in front of you. 01:48:35
If I could if I can remedy the problem by changing out. 01:48:38
$150.00 fixture. 01:48:42
Or reducing the wattage or something, right? 01:48:45
The practical way you're going to see these things though, is I think is. 01:48:49
Three or four or five years after build. 01:48:53
Somebody changes the landscaping in their backyard and they want to light it. 01:48:55
In some particular way and then they put in a different fixture to light and then. 01:48:59
Hearing that enforcement process. 01:49:04
And it's just not a. 01:49:07
To be honest with you, it's not an intuitive thing necessarily most property owners to think. 01:49:08
So I think the lighting in my backyard. 01:49:13
Got to comply with some code that was present at the time I built my house. 01:49:17
But it does appear to their name. 01:49:21
I wonder if this is an issue. Those standards can be. 01:49:24
Simplified greatly if you want to just. 01:49:28
Take them as a case by case basis. So you have. 01:49:32
Outdoor lighting poles. 01:49:35
Like your support court lighting, they don't exceed a maximum bite and after you feel cut off. 01:49:37
There's a diagram in there that can be provided. Then this is what we're really looking for. 01:49:41
We're going to be looking for the warmth of the light, the Kelvin scale. 01:49:46
So that can be somewhat fairly easily verified. 01:49:51
Anything would be on the slot, like on the Gable ends where softer lights are installed. 01:49:55
If you wanted to have a standard, he says, your maximum saw the light. 01:50:00
Height is. 01:50:03
20 feet is the Max height of accessory buildings. 01:50:06
And generally the maximum height of a Gable and you move down that comes around. 01:50:09
The roof in the home. 01:50:14
They don't have lights above 20 feet