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All right. We said we would move the discussion on the rezone after the text amendment to the PO zone to the top of the agenda 00:00:10
which we are at. 00:00:15
You know, to restate, it looked like this went through the Planning Commission process and the PC and the staff were not in favor 00:00:23
of of approving this text amendment and more in favor of including this in the broader discussion that will. 00:00:31
Go forward as a general plan review is executed. 00:00:41
Remind me? 00:00:47
So long, I think right when I got on board, we went through that general it's every 10 years. It should so it have been 10 years 00:00:49
ago. 00:00:53
I'm trying to remember how long that process took. 00:00:57
I want to say like a year, yeah, about a year and a half. I think you received a document you weren't entirely happy with, and it 00:01:01
took a while to. 00:01:05
Revise it a little, yeah. 00:01:10
It is that we should be as far as the timeline is concerned for the rewrite. 00:01:15
We should be considering a full-fledged document this time next year. 00:01:21
Was there in the Planning Commission like? 00:01:25
Were people just. 00:01:29
Very much against. 00:01:30
This. 00:01:33
Adding the short term rental piece to the PO zone. 00:01:35
Umm, or more like it's we're so close to doing the general plan. 00:01:40
UPDATE Why don't we just wait and? 00:01:46
And let that process go forward as part of the vision for the entire city for the next 10 years. So that was more of the notion 00:01:49
only because it would have been needed to apply. 00:01:55
In all PO zones in any future reason? 00:02:01
So there weren't. 00:02:06
Finding out what are the STR's place in holiday. 00:02:08
Yeah, yeah, which is I think where this council is. I mean, I know the applicants here and they state when they go through this 00:02:12
stuff that this person's gonna live here and. 00:02:18
That we're considering like is it appropriate for the text amendment PO zone? Because if we do, then it's allowed. 00:02:25
Everywhere where PO currently exists and everywhere it potentially could exist, which is I think the reference to 38 locations. 00:02:33
Across the city, that's the issue. 00:02:42
You know, is it OK to have it next to the one that's being built on Highland Drop? 00:02:46
So but it is it. I'm just trying to clarify my home line. 00:02:50
STR's would be allowed in AC2 zone. That's something I needed correct in the record. No, there had never had been allowed. 00:02:56
What about the What about the RN zone? 00:03:05
Yes. 00:03:07
R2 and RN. 00:03:09
R2. 00:03:11
And you have to be a primary. 00:03:13
Look larger than 6060. 00:03:17
Is there a Rd. 00:03:25
Previous senior zone probably would have been, would have definitely been approved. 00:03:27
STR's have never. 00:03:32
Already. 00:03:36
I guess that's the thing I struggle with. Like you look at this piece of property, right? And well, I pulled up the MRM on the 00:03:40
zoning map. I pulled that up. There's some down by on the backside of. 00:03:47
Excited behind FedEx and others, but down there which is all really multi family, right absolutely. And so those wouldn't likely 00:03:55
ever be converting to Pi mean there's I suspect there's a substantial number of arms on properties right now that would never be 00:04:00
not likely to be moving to. 00:04:06
I would hope not. 00:04:13
The problem with that is that still very conservative. 00:04:15
When you convert. 00:04:18
Right. And then it goes, you know, there's one weird. 00:04:43
Residential piece on Highland Drive there. 00:04:48
And so that's where I guess and I think that residential piece is. 00:04:52
Or is it R12R1? Yeah, it's the same as everything brick, right? For some reason reaches out and grabs that. 00:04:57
You know, is there a mechanism? 00:05:12
Variance or something that will. 00:05:15
Uses land uses aren't available through the various process. 00:05:20
Various processes would be a variable from a standard. 00:05:25
Like a set back or a? 00:05:31
Banana use is really something, isn't? 00:05:35
Available to. 00:05:38
For a variance option, now the. 00:05:39
Director, you can interpret the land use table with similar types of uses if that becomes an issue. 00:05:42
If we have a land use table that has uses there in there and. 00:05:50
Maybe the type of use has been applied for can be interpreted as to be somewhat similar to. 00:05:53
Another type of use of zone, there is an allowance there, furniture. 00:06:00
Is it? 00:06:06
Remind me what the. 00:06:10
Test Remind me what's the HTMP section C says about this property as it relates to that it was. 00:06:12
In the staff report it was well iterated by the applicant that it. 00:06:22
Primarily commercial. 00:06:25
6200 S. 00:06:29
For Van Regal. 00:06:32
What's the rationale for not having short term rentals in the commercial zone again? Could you for or is that have to be already 00:06:40
that's already yeah, that that transient housing the. 00:06:47
Some type of. 00:06:56
Hotels in. 00:06:58
Bed breakfast, that's something that was primarily for. 00:07:00
Plus. 00:07:08
I think that these properties. 00:07:13
Most of these properties. 00:07:16
Are on Island Drive or Murray Holiday Road and front those major arteria. 00:07:18
So those are your potential reasons to PO. 00:07:24
And if they are rezoned, PO. 00:07:28
There can be an office. 00:07:31
Take that piece in particular. They want to turn that into an apartment STR. 00:07:32
If it wasn't, it could be an office. 00:07:38
Right, whatever is allowed in the PO zone. 00:07:42
I'm trying to. 00:07:48
Beside in my own mind, what the difference is between an office commercial use in that space? 00:07:50
And a short term rental in that space in terms of impact of the community. 00:07:57
I would agree with you that, yeah, it doesn't seem terribly significant. And to me it would pull them out of the neighborhoods 00:08:04
more if we have more allowed options out of the neighborhoods because the neighborhoods are where it seems like it's really 00:08:10
problematic. But to me, the question it looks like from the staff report and the Planning Commission is this to me is I would say 00:08:15
that it's worth looking at. 00:08:21
But I would be interested in knowing why they didn't do it before. I mean, there's lots of pieces to whether or not I would 00:08:27
support it, but it's worth looking at. But to me, the question was whether or not we address it now or we address it later with 00:08:32
the general plan. And I, I can kind of see both, but either one I think is. 00:08:37
Going to be a long process. I mean, we're looking at the ad use and we've been looking at that for almost a year anyways, it's not 00:08:42
going to be a quick process. 00:08:46
Well. 00:08:51
Addictive. 00:08:53
I think the tax amendment could be a quick process because we could basically. 00:08:55
If we don't, if we don't think it's an issue and we don't think it. 00:09:00
Merits. I'm just saying I'm just throwing this out for argument's sake if we don't think it merits. 00:09:04
A delay if we think there's no justification. 00:09:12
For controversy associated with. 00:09:16
SDR conditional. 00:09:20
Use. Why would we force it to be delayed for a year and a half? 00:09:23
And couldn't it still be considered as part of the master plan process even? 00:09:30
Can you explain with the current MRI zone how does it work on the conditional use somebody does that have to have pretty strict 00:09:36
guidelines as to what like if certain conditions are met then it's granted? You know from an entitlement perspective or? 00:09:43
Yeah. So if through the public process, if there's determined to be an impact. 00:09:51
Of that, use to either the neighborhood or the surrounding area. 00:09:56
Planning Commission can apply conditions to mitigate that impact. 00:10:01
If they can't drive to conditions they can mitigate, then they can. 00:10:04
It's very difficult. 00:10:08
With set parameters specific tailored to that site that use. 00:10:13
And just. 00:10:19
Clarified if. 00:10:22
In this particular case, if they wanted to rebuild and they wanted to build with the intent of creating an STR, it has different. 00:10:24
It's that is a different licensing requirements which is going to require a different. 00:10:34
Permitting. 00:10:38
So if somebody had. 00:10:40
The existing building. 00:10:43
And they said oh I want to convert. 00:10:44
This office up here to a short term rental residential rental they would have to. 00:10:47
Convert they would have to put life safety. 00:10:53
Improvements into that space to actually be able to do it as part of the conditional use. 00:10:57
Yeah, and that's the building code is a completely different server, right? You're now converting a business use space, which is 00:11:01
designed for business use itself. 00:11:06
Assembly types. 00:11:11
To a residential which is. 00:11:13
Yeah, the bathroom, you don't have egress, all kinds of stuff you got. 00:11:15
Problem anyway, regardless of the sum. 00:11:19
Cooking facilities. 00:11:22
Currently the PO zone. 00:11:29
If you look at the uses. 00:11:32
And you go through the whole residential section, you see. 00:11:34
Except we look at the PUD planned unit development, mixed-use planned unit development where residential is an accessory as 00:11:38
opposed to primary use, and you just have this designation called PUD Plan Unit Development. 00:11:46
And that's the only place where you see a residential use in the PO zone at present. 00:11:54
But then also in the definition of short term rentals and this would just be this is what we're deciding though. 00:12:01
And this is the point I was trying to make earlier, but I don't think it was an oversight. Of course, that could be 00:12:08
misinterpreting that as well. 00:12:11
But short term rentals, the definition of short term rentals as defined in Chapter 1304, the title. This is a section 13.76 dot 00:12:14
735 definition of short-term Rample in our code. 00:12:20
Short term rentals as defined in Chapter 34. This title should only be approved by the Planning Commission. If A and there's, you 00:12:26
know. 00:12:30
But hey, the dwelling unit is located in a single family or two family dwelling but not located in a PUD. 00:12:36
So it's specifically saying, OK, you can have residential uses in a PUD and a PO zone, but. 00:12:43
But not if it's a PUD. 00:12:50
Excludes residential years. What's that? 00:12:53
But I just it just says that you can have a short term rental. 00:12:57
But not in a PUD. And it just so happens that PUD is the only place where there's a residential use for PO zone. 00:13:02
So it's specifically excluding short term rentals. 00:13:10
From the PO zone was president. 00:13:13
Was he doing? Was that a beauty? 00:13:18
So you can have a long term rental or. 00:13:24
As long as it's not. 00:13:30
Yeah, the definition of short term rental. 00:13:35
Currently includes that exception. 00:13:37
So that seems rather purposeful. 00:13:40
Whether the purpose is good or not. And that's something we have an opportunity to evaluate and change being a legislative body. 00:13:42
But. 00:13:45
It seems like it was put in there rather purposefully, it wasn't just an oversight. 00:13:49
And so that leads to the question of what were those? 00:13:53
And so it tells all leads to that. 00:13:57
Maybe we don't just go slam down, make the change, but rather have a more thoughtful. 00:13:59
Process which would be. 00:14:06
Part of the general plan review. 00:14:08
Certainly think we should be thoughtful. I just don't know that. I guess where I struggle again is and I'm all believe I get. 00:14:10
Go to Airbnb's lot and have one up in Idaho. Get the conflict that they can do with neighbors and those types of things. 00:14:19
But any place, and this is where I struggle is if these especially to have that 66 foot, you know, if you're on a major road and 00:14:26
you think all the businesses that can be open until 9:00 or 10:00 at night and the impact that those would have. 00:14:34
Comparatively. 00:14:42
I don't know. I agree, but this is the zone, not this property. 00:14:45
Right. We're texting the zone, but this, like this one right here is like sitting by itself on an island. I agree. And if it were 00:14:49
an application for the site only, that's an easier argument to make. But it's for the Zone, which can be anywhere in the city. 00:14:58
You look at, Yeah. 00:15:09
This might be a crazy. 00:15:14
But do you think there's a? 00:15:17
Affordable housing. 00:15:19
On this decision because it occurs to me. 00:15:22
Allowing long term rentals. 00:15:25
Is a way to sort of move towards some affordable housing. 00:15:29
But if we allow that a short term rental, does that sort of undermine that or? 00:15:32
Based on the locations of where some of these professional offices are. 00:15:39
Probably is not much impact. 00:15:44
Short term rentals. 00:15:47
It is primarily commercial venture and removing homes and apartments for commercial venture really good for otherwise be occupied 00:15:50
by a family. Yes, there is an impact there. 00:15:56
If we were to allow this, is there a way that we could put some kind of I don't know if conditions on the number of properties in 00:16:03
the city or at each area to stay only X number of units or certain percentage of units can be short term rentals and the rest have 00:16:09
to be? 00:16:14
Long term rentals because if we did, if we could do something like that, it could encourage maybe property owners to. Is that 00:16:20
something? That's definitely something a lot of cities have been able to do that and they've been fairly successful. As far as I 00:16:26
understand it has turned into a bit of a lottery situation when it Max out those numbers and then when someone just waits for the 00:16:33
one to expire and the next person in line comes in but. 00:16:39
Sandy works that way. They distribute them out throughout the city. 00:16:46
We have a certain percentage of those apartment complex we allow for the way generally is still a big channel. 00:16:51
So the PO zones a commercial zone? 00:17:01
Yes, this is a commercial venture. 00:17:04
No, yeah, and. 00:17:06
And going backwards on this because originally I thought a certain way and now I'm thinking about it a little bit differently, 00:17:09
more along the lines of I think what Emily was getting to, which is. 00:17:14
And what? 00:17:21
This location outwithstanding the PO zone does require a larger setback from residential neighborhoods, correct. We just kind of 00:17:23
went through that underheld. It isn't like 30 feet, it is and. 00:17:29
And whether this use is in that space. If it's not, it's going to be another commercial use. 00:17:37
That's allowed in the zone that's going to have a certain amount of intensity and I can't imagine that that intensity would be. 00:17:44
More than probably what an STR would generate. 00:17:51
And it's almost like if you're. 00:17:57
I don't like it. I mean, personally, I don't like STR's inside residential neighborhoods. 00:17:59
If you're going to have them, there would be. 00:18:05
What would be the justification to say this is not where it should be? 00:18:07
Because it's not this. It's going to be some other commercial use, right? And frankly, I'd rather see it here than ours. 00:18:12
Which then just begs the whole question. We just need to have a greater policy discussion generally about stores and where they go 00:18:20
forcibility and I'm OK. There's also the property tax issue exemption. Is it commercial? That's another reason I'd like to have 00:18:25
them in PO and commercial space because it doesn't, it's less likely to get the residential property tax haircut, which it 00:18:31
shouldn't get as a commercial. 00:18:36
If it's in an R1 zone, it likely is getting it. 00:18:43
And if we know about it because they're applying for it, well then would we get the transient tax from the short term rentals, it 00:18:46
would be licensed separately, yes. So we would be able to because I think the more we can track those. 00:18:52
They would be a lot easier to track. 00:18:58
Because you're going to know they're there and they're going to have to have a license. You have to make sure there's life safety 00:19:01
issues associated with it. 00:19:04
But it's also. They're also going to be. 00:19:09
For the most part, separate from residential areas, they front commercial streets for the most part in or off of Highland Driver, 00:19:12
Murray Holiday Rd. So the impact of neighborhoods is actually a lot less and the intensity of the use is most likely going to be a 00:19:19
lot less than what the alternate uses are that are allowed in the PO zone. And so now I'm trying to talk myself in the back of how 00:19:26
you justify that it's not an appropriate use. 00:19:33
In the PO zone I'm more interested in. 00:19:41
People. 00:19:45
Rezoning something to. 00:19:47
Part 2. 00:19:50
Inside of a residential area and then turning them into an investment properties as SDR's. 00:19:52
And having an inappropriate having a disproportionate impact on residential neighborhoods, that's what I don't want. This doesn't 00:19:59
really scare me. 00:20:03
Could there be a? 00:20:10
Requirement that part of it does have to be office space that. 00:20:12
And the way you do that would be requiring that that. 00:20:18
Short term rental being accessory to you have to establish the office 1st and then you can have your so we've changed this 00:20:23
thirteen, 76735 that specifically excludes PUD. 00:20:28
That would and then then it just becomes an accessory and allowable accessory use. 00:20:34
Under the PUD. 00:20:41
Use in the PO zone. 00:20:44
I might want to look at that a little more carefully because that could disrupt. 00:20:47
Situation. 00:20:52
In other established communities, their primary residential. I don't think we want to hurt that. 00:20:56
Oh, so maybe, yeah. So maybe change language, short term rental here, the PUD, but then be more specific about the zones and PUD 00:21:02
combination. I did want to address what Matt brought up about affecting moderate income housing if there's a way that we could. 00:21:11
I'm still trying to figure this out in my head, but there's a way that we could say if you have more than X number of units. 00:21:21
So many need to be long term resources. I don't know what you said about other cities. 00:21:27
Do on that I just am wondering. 00:21:32
I don't love those persons because like those taxi patches, you know, like those kinds of things. That's a fairpoint. You have 00:21:34
like these. Sure. 00:21:38
Easier to enforce something that would be so for example when we were talking about this. 00:21:44
I have on my. 00:21:50
To Do List during the general plan is to talk about and hopefully. 00:21:52
Reconfirm your Hyundai master plan. 00:21:58
Maybe it'll also include what could be possibly a Blvd. Commercial Blvd. 00:22:01
Land use plan for all the way up and down. 00:22:06
That would address these types of situations. 00:22:10
The zone that can be used, that's up and down island, maybe in the individual sections, or those uses are focused inward rather 00:22:12
than. 00:22:17
Having percentage of uses maybe allowed throughout the city. 00:22:21
Yes, they have a place and here's here's from the Council's point of view whether they should be located. 00:22:26
That makes sense, yeah. I mean in terms of affordable housing impacts the. 00:22:32
I'm not sure how this would. 00:22:39
Impact that issue because. 00:22:41
An owner is going to evaluate this as a commercial piece of property. 00:22:43
And whether they, you know, whether they're. 00:22:49
Their ROI is going to be better if they've got a. 00:22:52
Insurance office in there where they turn it into an STR. 00:22:56
And I don't particularly care about that if that makes more financial sense. You're just going to have to make sure that your 00:23:00
residential use. 00:23:05
Meets code. 00:23:10
Right. If you decide to put residents in there, where it's getting impacted is when people go inside neighborhoods and buy homes. 00:23:12
Build in an R2 zone knowing they can put SDR in there with no intent of having the owner occupied and then they rent it out and it 00:23:21
drives the prices up and it takes. 00:23:26
Residential properties off the market for families trying to enter into it. I think that has a major impact on affordable housing, 00:23:32
but I'm not sure this. I'd be interested in looking at what we do the general families regardless of what we do. I wouldn't want 00:23:38
to necessarily just have a. 00:23:44
Grant an expansion of STR privileges. I think overall in the general plan we should try to figure out how to. 00:23:51
Squeeze STR's generally, but not necessarily out of this zone. 00:24:00
Expanding into this zone, but I also like to maybe squeeze it out of R2. 00:24:05
Although then again, you know lots of Airbnbs are single family homes. 00:24:10
But that. 00:24:14
That is a bad use of single family homes as they are, even though a lot of people use them. It's a bad use for people and they 00:24:16
figured out they can make money buying them and renting them and it takes them off the market and then it drives the. I mean, 00:24:24
anyway, that's a whole different discussion, but. 00:24:31
I mean this this is just. 00:24:39
Sure, I had an issue with this. And then if they want to tackle that, I'd have no problem tackling during the general general 00:24:41
planned process. 00:24:45
Like the other issue of well do we want? 00:24:49
Do we want a? 00:24:52
Because I'm not sure you'd want. 00:24:54
Somebody to rezone PO and then have the whole thing be residential SDRS. 00:24:56
If we did this, could they do that? 00:25:03
No, you'd have to establish a primary. So it's so it now requires that they have the primary still has the office that's real PUD 00:25:05
residential and that was sort of the intent of the POS, so you can have a good work situation. 00:25:12
That does create affordability, yeah. Because I mean, it seemed to me. It seemed to me. 00:25:20
Because I came in with a certain mindset here, but. 00:25:27
In the staff report and then during the applicant's presentation, they talked about. 00:25:31
The check boxes in the general plan and whatnot, it didn't seem to, it didn't seem like really violated those. 00:25:36
So the justification was really, you know what, we're getting ready to do a general plan update and let's just. 00:25:43
Let them tackle it there where if there's other major problem with it. 00:25:49
I don't see what our justification being not to allow it to be a conditional use and then let the general plan process go forward. 00:25:54
Yeah, the only, the only thing that worries me now is I agree with you. The only thing that worries me is that. 00:26:02
Unintended consequences. We haven't given enough to really think about your pull string here and next thing. 00:26:07
The question of whether or not someone rezones it so they can primarily have a block of short term rentals, whether they're having 00:26:17
an office, maybe they have a rent short term rental office as their primary use in the corner of the building and the 90% of The 00:26:24
thing is now short term. So those sorts of, you know, unintended consequences things in this particular scenario. 00:26:32
I agree, I have no problem with it. 00:26:41
But this is a larger issue than just this one property, and there's almost those darn unintended consequences. That's the only 00:26:43
thing that kind of. 00:26:47
Constants are here today, and they'll be heard. 00:26:53
Down the road, if we, you know, I would say let's think about it then and let's look at it and see what you know, I don't know. 00:26:56
Do you have any concerns like about well because this council and councils before have been so careful on your rezone? 00:27:03
There's not a little thing. Yeah. And it would also address Mr. Neslins concerns. 00:27:12
Station just got in and resolved. 00:27:18
All the room office buildings to the PO just to make it easier for. 00:27:20
Myself so I won't have to go through the process. 00:27:24
Council came to that decision years ago and decided no. 00:27:27
Every property owner will identify and we'll consider it individually. 00:27:32
So at least from that point of view. 00:27:37
If the change does make it does happen, then you have the opportunity. 00:27:40
To look at each individual property and. 00:27:44
Measure all of the requirements allowances. 00:27:46
That space in particular, if it makes sense for them to prove that. 00:27:49
When you look at the RM's you can see why I think I can see why they would have wanted to do. 00:27:54
Because of where some of them are right in the middle of some. 00:27:58
Yes, most of your office buildings are already on arterial side. 00:28:02
But like over by Spring Lane, there there's a big arm zone that's, well, it's. 00:28:10
Yeah. 00:28:17
Yeah, and you know, we're having issues right now with. 00:28:20
With office owners. 00:28:24
Wanted to get tenants in. 00:28:26
Under the RM zone. 00:28:29
That are completely different in outside of the allowances that even the room zone could could provide. 00:28:31
YARN Zone didn't allow for medical use or personal services. 00:28:38
So when you have tenant or spaces that's open and they're looking for tenants and massage therapy needs to go in or one it wasn't 00:28:42
available in the end zone. 00:28:47
So we're asking the property already, go ahead and just rezone it at PO. 00:28:52
So you can get all these other tenants in there and then. 00:28:57
When they start weighing ROI, they're like, well. 00:28:59
Cost per square footage for residential right now is much higher than it would be for office. 00:29:03
RM and now we have enforcement problem. 00:29:09
It's tricky. 00:29:15
Just kind of that person that. 00:29:16
I was speaking to right so the nearest point. 00:29:19
They're all kind of commercial activities, right? Yeah. 00:29:24
Yeah. And not terribly impactful, I don't think. Yeah, so he's requesting. 00:29:30
They're still going to have to, yeah, they're still going to have to meet condition if they apply for it. They're still going to 00:29:39
be conditions. They have to meet to put it in. 00:29:43
So you are overly concerned? No, I mean, that's why the sack report is so lengthy. It tries to give you both sides and scary's 00:29:48
done a good job of that. 00:29:53
Yes, I mean. 00:30:01
Doesn't it kind of come down to whether we really think we have justification that kind of? 00:30:02
Kick the can down the road waiting for the general plan to deal with the issue. 00:30:08
As long as you're OK with the premise of. 00:30:15
Removing all office uses from our end zone to create professional office in particular. 00:30:18
That was the impetus of creating the. 00:30:24
If you're allowed to keep adding in residential uses to that PO zone, which kind of detracts from what the intent was initially. 00:30:28
It's really not that. 00:30:36
What does RM zones convert to at some point? Or would they maybe just not say or not? 00:30:39
And this is the general plan. We decide what a different animal they are. 00:30:46
These ones that are, you know, in the middle of the residential area, right? Yeah. 00:30:50
Some of the county, the county drastically. 00:30:55
Modify what? 00:30:58
The RM zone, it was when we incorporated. 00:31:00
It was kind of frozen in time. 00:31:05
Maximum 16 units an acre, 40 foot Max height. 00:31:07
County has changed that to almost a 32 unit per acre count to 65 foot heights. 00:31:12
OK, so. 00:31:21
Well. 00:31:23
I guess the bottom line is. 00:31:25
I don't think it's that complicated. It's just whether we're, if we get comfortable that we don't think there's. 00:31:28
That between now and the 17th is. 00:31:34
Figure out if there's unintended consequences that are going to cause us discomfort. 00:31:37
Or it's a bad balance concern. It's hard to foresee. And we're talking about land use here. And that's the thing that always. 00:31:43
Yeah, that's people's hair on fire. 00:31:51
Umm, the only would be is, you know. 00:31:58
Office tenant user that now all of a sudden has 24 access to their building for a residential space that's upstairs, downstairs 00:32:01
next. 00:32:05
That would be from the tenants point of view. 00:32:10
Would that be our issue or would that be the land? 00:32:16
So you're thinking somebody? 00:32:21
Erecting a cot in their office and living there. 00:32:26
Yes. 00:32:29
But through the SDR requirements that the space has to be inspected and brought up to. 00:32:32
Major issue. 00:32:43
And again. 00:32:46
And also gets you. 00:32:49
Voice to say to residents or those that are looking for US yards and neighborhoods, look, they were creating locations for these 00:32:51
spaces to go. That's where they belong. 00:32:55
Well, I still think it should be posted for both. 00:33:07
If you can't, if we can't get clarity by then, then we can always delay the little we could always delay the vote, but. 00:33:11
And even. 00:33:19
Yeah, yeah. 00:33:23
OK. 00:33:25
All right, any other? 00:33:27
Todd Isms. 00:33:29
Todd Wisdom we should receive. 00:33:32
To your zoning districts for a particular application, right? 00:33:39
That's the one hesitancy that I have here. 00:33:44
You've talked about it enough, you know. 00:33:46
Yeah, I think. 00:33:50
Paul. 00:33:51
We're talking about the PO zone, and I hate that. 00:33:53
To use a specific example, use this specific example, because if we do it, it's going to be a PO zone text amendment. And so 00:33:57
everybody's going to be allowed to do it and we have to be comfortable with that. 00:34:02
That's the question. Is there, Yeah. Is there a place for SCRS? And if so, would this, should it be resumed? I don't like STR, but 00:34:08
I gotta tell you, if we have to have them, I'd rather have them here than the neighborhood. 00:34:15
Yeah, I mean, I'm also just reminded of the. 00:34:22
We came this close to putting P use in AC2 zone and we almost. 00:34:25
Messed up by an entire C2 zone as a result. 00:34:31
And that was a last minute Hail Mary. Oopsie. We almost messed up the city in the whole. 00:34:35
58 acre projects, that's the kind of things that made me a little. We've got a couple weeks to look into this and make sure I'm 00:34:40
comfortable with our boat, whatever that boat is. 00:34:45
Is it possible? I don't know in the meantime to. 00:34:51
Requested John and Kerry kind of do some looking at that and just seeing if there's any other problems that they anticipate or 00:34:55
something or is that going to be similar to? 00:35:00
Commissioner, Council. 00:35:07
Yeah, dedicate some brain cycles to foreseeing. 00:35:09
Do you need like a crystal ball? 00:35:14
Something similar to the DABC? 00:35:23
Distance rule. 00:35:26
Well, again, it gives us a little bit of time maybe to go look at those 38. 00:35:36
The current, the current POS and then the 38 that are potential POS and just make sure we're comfortable with where they are. So 00:35:42
should this happen and come up, we'd be OK with it. 00:35:47
So what would the process be? As far as attaching, I'm assuming we're talking about a conditional use. 00:35:53
When? 00:35:59
Start the Planning Commission. 00:36:04
That would be modify the conditions themselves. We probably would need to take a look at something like that. Even have a 00:36:06
modification to allow the stores in a PUD. But if you have them in the land use table as an outright allowance for an accessory 00:36:12
use, I think that would be. That's exactly what it's going to apply for. 00:36:18
So if we wanted to. 00:36:27
Attach some conditions. 00:36:30
When would that happen? 00:36:32
Through this process. 00:36:34
Yeah, they applied for the conditional, they applied for the use. 00:36:37
Than the Planning Commission would place conditions on the STR. I'm not sure if Kerry included a reference to that section that 00:36:41
Paul quoted. 00:36:46
But I can e-mail that out to you can look at what? 00:36:52
Concerning to you. 00:36:59
It's pretty solid. 00:37:00
Where they basically assess the impact. 00:37:03
Because they're assessing impact like for example in an R2 zone, which. 00:37:07
Very close to everyone. 00:37:12
So impact is. 00:37:14
All right, well. 00:37:22
It's going to be on the October 17th agenda for both. 00:37:25
We appreciate that. Thank you. 00:37:29
All right. Thanks. 00:37:34
John, you're still up 80 years. 00:37:38
As we stated earlier, this is this is what is the. 00:37:41
Supposedly final cleanup language after four or five iterations of this. 00:37:47
Yes, so. 00:37:53
I'll let you kind of, I mean, if there's anything that you want to make sure we're clear on that you're clear on. Yeah, two 00:37:55
things. Primarily we wanted to ensure that if you have an existing building and you wanted to convert to an Adu, there was a chart 00:38:03
in there that that basically requires the applicant to buffer a set back that wouldn't. 00:38:11
Currently. 00:38:20
For a new Adu. 00:38:23
You had a set of distances in there that might. 00:38:26
Might be a little too restrictive. 00:38:28
So the idea was just to eliminate that and use existing. 00:38:31
Accessory building setbacks that you have for your lot size. 00:38:35
Because that's probably going to be applicable to a lot of detached structures, pool houses, garage, and. 00:38:39
Et cetera that have been built within the last 10 years. 00:38:46
Otherwise, those buildings that have been built on the last 10 years would have to. 00:38:50
Increase their setbacks somehow. 00:38:55
Because they're already non compliant if you want to convert. 00:38:57
The idea is new Adu's would just match those setbacks that are already in place for an accessory build. 00:39:01
So no difference in accessory building, accessory dwelling, external accessory dwelling. Correct? 00:39:07
Same setbacks, yeah. 00:39:12
The other notion is that if I remember correctly, through my nose and I went through. 00:39:15
The audio I was. 00:39:20
Certainly that the 25 foot height allowance was acceptable. 00:39:23
For Nadu, previously accessory buildings are allowed to Max height of 20 feet. We left that in there at 25. 00:39:27
I didn't change that to reduce it. 00:39:36
That does allow for extra high. So we already had a garage. I think we talked about in existing garage they want to put an extra 00:39:40
story on top. Livability would allow for the extra 5 feet to be safe there would actually work. 00:39:47
The building envelope still applies. 00:39:56
To keep the. 00:40:00
The massing of that 25 foot would still have to be centered over the house or the garage. 00:40:01
So yeah, that. 00:40:08
And with those? 00:40:12
Distances. We did we. 00:40:15
Talk about where did we end up with Windows and where they were facing on. I think we we eliminated that for egress, yeah. 00:40:19
And then ensuring that if you had an existing garage, I'm thinking and we all know the specific example I'm talking about and you 00:40:39
had a subgrade Adu. 00:40:44
And the garage itself was non conforming. 00:40:51
If it was underground or subgrade, then 100% reduction would be allowed. If it's that, the setback is not. 00:40:53
Because it really is a small impact. 00:41:02
Other than that, is there some grammar and numbering? 00:41:07
It's still a mess. 00:41:11
It's a memory and grammar that we. 00:41:14
We try to clean up. 00:41:16
But if that's primarily what I think we're still on the same page with, we can. 00:41:18
We can get a very clean document back and. 00:41:22
OK, great. 00:41:29
Thanks for all your work. 00:41:31
This has been a big lift, but this will be a good feather in our hat for right as far as we definitely want monster credit from 00:41:35
the legislature. 00:41:39
Yes it will. 00:41:48
Yeah, we staged this so we can get years of credit. 00:41:51
So we'll put. 00:41:57
Clean version with the hearing notice. 00:41:58
I've said all along we're a maximum price here. 00:42:05
Where is that? 00:42:12
Yeah. OK. So the lighting issue is, so we had Andy Wyden. I thought, wow. 00:42:15
Good timing because. 00:42:25
Think he was complaining about those two houses on Walker that had been built and they have. 00:42:27
A lot of fence lighting, I think, and well, you know, actually I've got a couple in my neighborhood, Steve West. 00:42:32
His neighbor is Steve West. I play tennis with. He's right across the street from the club. Got those two new houses. 00:42:40
And the one next to him, he says the new lighting on the side of the house is going right in his bedroom. Well, the ones that are 00:42:46
on the corner of Lakewood and Cottonwood Club that have just been built that big, you know? 00:42:52
Like, Oh yeah. And underneath them they put their. I mean, it's like a Christmas tree when they're on. Yeah, just. 00:43:01
Stephanie, if you want to go, I don't know, I can go through these slides, but I think we have a really decent idea, I think. I 00:43:10
think you showed the. 00:43:14
Commercial and then here's with properly. 00:43:20
Hooded, yeah. And so the question you have, I think is, is there an appetite? 00:43:25
To move some of our Commercial Code. 00:43:32
And explore whether we want to. 00:43:35
Start looking at residential areas in terms of doing the same things on new builds and remodels. Exactly. 00:43:38
This will require an additional level of review when a house comes in, similar now to landscaping. 00:43:45
Because landscaping was something we never really looked at before now regard to. 00:43:53
And then enforce on after the house is built. 00:43:58
So. 00:44:01
You know, where would you like if you want to go? 00:44:02
Maybe to the next one. 00:44:07
No, it's. 00:44:14
This one. 00:44:18
Because the house can be built and be still compliant, but over a weekend software lighting you can go in quickly. 00:44:22
Very quickly. 00:44:29
And the problem with at least in the market around here, you go to Lowe's or Home Depot. 00:44:31
And you're looking for a security light, which you might need because of an issue. 00:44:37
You're not going to find a dark second client fixture, or you'll be hard pressed to find one in the aisle. 00:44:45
And So what people go out and buy that's easily accessible is not going to be dark second plant. 00:44:52
So I guess what we try to do, because we have some of those standards that are commercial zones. 00:45:05
Those are scrutinized by the Planning Commission. 00:45:10
By being full cut off words, a different type of spectrum, you can see when you drive through the village what that looks like. 00:45:13
Very well done. Spectrum of light is more of the yellow. 00:45:20
And even though that's a commercial area, it doesn't impede them. 00:45:25
So that level of review and enforcement will be transferring over to residential property. 00:45:32
It's doable for some municipalities, but would create them immediately. 00:45:40
Gigantic number of non performance issues. 00:45:45
So they either have to figure out at what point do they need to come into compliance, or they just come into compliance when a new 00:45:48
house gets built or a new addition gets built there. 00:45:53
We have built them into the Adu code, so there is already dark stacking plants. 00:45:59
Requirements when they have a PDU. 00:46:04
So that's taken care of. 00:46:07
Disappeared pretty much everything else. 00:46:09
And primarily some of the other issues that we've heard is complaints are. 00:46:12
Seasonal lighting and scorecard lighting which does create issues. What's our current? 00:46:19
So. 00:46:28
And it has to have the full hood cut off. 00:46:33
Normally those types of fixtures are movable. 00:46:38
So they'll have the full hood cut off, but they'll tilt it up. 00:46:41
So that across the property line you can see the element. 00:46:45
And that coat of light gets shined across the property line. So Warren will go out at least in an evening patrol when he does have 00:46:48
an evening patrol. 00:46:53
You'll look at all of the support complaints and then work with the property just adjusted. 00:46:57
So usually there's there's some element of. 00:47:03
Civility when we address some problems, like the issues we're seeing on block or lane. 00:47:07
To just either one change the type or color of the LED bulb that's in there. 00:47:13
Or put full cut off hood. 00:47:18
That would be similar to. 00:47:21
Yeah, something like it's either the better or faster situation. 00:47:26
The direct light where it needs to be shining, not necessarily everywhere. 00:47:30
That's sort of the whole. 00:47:35
Premise of Dark Sky compliant. 00:47:37
It's used like where it needs to be used. 00:47:39
Not necessarily shining it all over. 00:47:42
Another consideration that maybe we might ask. 00:47:48
You to consider where. 00:47:51
If we want to have dark side compliance. 00:47:54
Is it in the development code or is this a health? 00:47:58
Because there's, yeah, there's a lot of research out there that light trespass and light pollution does affect our health. 00:48:03
That's affected by wildlife, especially when the color spectrums are used in the wider whites and bluish range. 00:48:11
Affecting migration patterns All sorts of. 00:48:20
Won't be the disadvantage of putting it in one point again as far as enforcement or it would be the same that it would be a Class 00:48:25
B. 00:48:29
Probably a lot easier than a. 00:48:38
As a health regulation, because that can be applied. 00:48:40
Otherwise you put in development code. You need to make sure that it's specific to all zones. 00:48:44
As a health regulation, just like noise, regardless of where you are. 00:48:51
Where that noise is emanating from, it's a violation. 00:48:56
Have you rolled that out though? 00:48:59
And how do you roll that out in a built out city with? 00:49:02
Houses built in the 20s all the way to yesterday. I think imperfectly, but it's better to do something cuz there's people who will 00:49:06
always push the envelope and then there's people who will comply because they're people who comply and you'll have an improvement 00:49:11
but they'll be grandfathered. 00:49:17
They would have to be and then, and then it would just be. 00:49:25
New construction remodels, so that would have to be a consideration. We had a sunset date where all those non compliant 00:49:30
situations. 00:49:34
Have to commit. 00:49:38
If we didn't do that, John, wouldn't we create? 00:49:41
A potential major issue in the city. 00:49:44
Neighbors are now. 00:49:47
Reporting on other neighbors. 00:49:50
Because they're not compliant. 00:49:53
There was an interesting presentation I think a year ago at the ULCD. 00:49:56
Conference from the City of Molab. 00:50:02
And they did this and they had. 00:50:05
I can't remember. 00:50:09
Several years to. 00:50:10
Require every single home, business, everything in the city of Moab to go dark sky compliant and. 00:50:13
I remember the bottom line was. 00:50:21
Give yourself a long time because it was a really hard transition process, so. 00:50:24
I think it makes more sense at least. 00:50:30
Initially to start with. 00:50:33
Just new, new builds and rebuilds, remodels and then as people get more. 00:50:37
Exactly. Then down the road, you know, maybe start. 00:50:44
You start off with rebates for compliance. Yeah, as a more gradual effect or a more gradual process, yeah. Those programs are 00:50:50
really successful and many proponents of. 00:50:57
Of dark sky standards point to those cities. 00:51:04
But primarily when you look at all those cities as a whole. 00:51:08
They're usually near or close by national parks, state parks, lands where people want to go out and enjoy. 00:51:11
Their brand deal with the cycle. 00:51:21
They're not internal communities where there's already other light. 00:51:24
And if Mill Creek and Cotton Heights, don't do it? 00:51:31
See, I'm just concerned about, I mean, I would love to have dark sky where we can see lots of stars, but I'm less concerned about 00:51:35
that and more concerned about. 00:51:38
Your neighbors light shining into your bedroom like those kind of issues to be honest. 00:51:42
So we have had those problems in the past and it's always. 00:51:47
How is Microsoft enforcement working with the property owners? 00:51:54
Unless there's a dramatic Hatfield McCoy problem. And is there any Utah Civil Code? 00:51:58
Outside of what we would have to do where if the neighbor is bugged by a new light that's going right and is better than it wasn't 00:52:07
there before until there's new construction. 00:52:11
Can they just handle that civilly or is that? 00:52:16
And sometimes we help mediate that. 00:52:21
Good extent. 00:52:24
And just to help them see what the benefits are for both sides, what they can use their light for. So we have some slides in here 00:52:27
that talk about security lighting. That's primarily what they want it used for. But they'll go out and buy a floodlight, which 00:52:33
goes directly across property lines. But if we can show you, Warren is really good at you doing this, showing them that they can 00:52:39
use light in a way that still illuminates what they need to. 00:52:45
Secure, but still not trespass. 00:52:52
The way I'm confused I thought it sounds like we're already doing some enforcement on this but I thought we didn't have any. We 00:52:55
don't have any teeth but it's always going out in with soft sided approach and just explaining. 00:53:00
Look, we have codes that prevent commercial property from affecting residential. 00:53:06
It would be really nice if you kind of play along. 00:53:12
And here's what you can do. 00:53:15
Still have benefit life without intruding on neighbors other than the sport courts. We do have code right now, is that right? Oh 00:53:17
no, I'm sorry. Supports we do have. 00:53:22
Lighting percentage for. 00:53:27
But as far as yard lighting, decorative lighting, softened lighting. 00:53:30
Christmas lights? Does this impose if we were to go this route? 00:53:35
I'm assuming that we're catching it in the design phase right before people. 00:53:40
Because that's my other concern is that you know, people are just they don't know, you know, who can keep track of all whatever, 00:53:44
right. So we're catching that in the design phase and it's going through approval process there. So and then is it imposing any 00:53:49
more cost burden? 00:53:54
To go dark side versus not this material, I don't know for sure, but if I similar to. 00:53:59
I think it's about second. 00:54:08
Two or three slides in. 00:54:11
You're not going to find them around. 00:54:14
Like they want to match the size of the house. It's a special order. 00:54:17
So there could possibly be a cost. 00:54:23
What is it like a couple 100? 00:54:26
Dollar cut, I mean when you're building a house like this is like a couple $100 increase costs, are we talking? 00:54:28
Thousands of dollars. 00:54:34
Probably under. 00:54:37
Speaking of, have you seen the new latest pictures on the Apollo that have just been installed? 00:54:46
Yeah, full on black gas lights, gas lectures. They look gorgeous. Where's that? 00:54:50
Where the car wash used to be the residential commercial. 00:54:57
Yeah, yeah. If you had a chance to go drive there, probably on now. 00:55:04
There. 00:55:09
You know, I got I got an invitation for a little open house. Did you get that? Yes. Tomorrow night. Yeah. From 4:00 to 6:00 up 00:55:11
that they're. 00:55:16
So. 00:55:26
So possibly for new construction we can look at that and see. 00:55:28
Does that create problems? 00:55:34
No, it's just the level of review and enforcement. So let me ask you a question like when we went through the tree ordinance and 00:55:37
we amended the tree ordinance to replace, how much, what did that do to staff? 00:55:44
How did that impact staffers? 00:55:51
Well, at first it's a lot. 00:55:55
It definitely increased the burden of review. 00:56:00
Mostly because it required a lot of education for that property owner to understand. We need you need to go out and find an 00:56:03
arborist. 00:56:06
To go out and assess the trees you want to have removed. 00:56:11
Write a letter and then it's submitted to staff for review and it may or may not be reviewed or approved. 00:56:14
So it did add extra time. 00:56:21
Yeah, but. 00:56:28
We just roll it into the process we tried to make it. 00:56:31
Similar with landscaping. Yeah, I mean, I think that's where we're getting at. 00:56:36
I think we're trying to limit it to new builds. 00:56:40
If we just went. 00:56:44
It would be impossible to enforce it and. 00:56:46
Except for that seemed like we should have something that has some teeth for egregious problems to do that 'cause I mean, it just 00:56:49
it's a negative externality, right? Where you've got people that are put potentially we have no way to really do anything about 00:56:54
it, not really, especially like you're talking about. 00:56:59
Todd. 00:57:09
Whether it's. 00:57:14
They would fall back. It's been there. 00:57:17
The problem with that is that. 00:57:22
As we know with other situations we have a non conforming use or structure. 00:57:26
All you can do is maintain it and usually lights aren't that maintainable unless you have the old screw in bulbs. If it's an LED, 00:57:31
it has to be replaced. The whole fixture has to be replaced. 00:57:36
And that. 00:57:42
If those pictures be replaced, you have to come into compliance somehow. 00:57:43
Top are you shaking your head? 00:57:48
I hate these enforcement. 00:57:50
And they get so hard and. 00:57:52
Yeah, Who gets enforced upon and who doesn't? Then you've got initial remodeling, new construction, but then you just have 00:58:00
maintenance. So if we just did remodeling new construction, I mean that's going to be a burden on your shaft. 00:58:08
They're going to have to start looking at the kind of fixtures that go on garages, right? 00:58:17
Yeah, and on the back of houses. 00:58:23
That's an additional review burden. That's not. 00:58:26
Yeah, that's pretty handy. Can we get into that level of detail generally on other stuff? 00:58:29
Let's see the other stuff to between neighbors. 00:58:35
You mean just that they had a problem? Take it up civilly. Exactly. 00:58:43
And we're always going to help in that situation. 00:58:49
We have handouts and pamphlets that summarize a lot of this and what? 00:58:52
Like the picture of the type of fixtures that should be installed. 00:58:58
And when they understand. 00:59:04
I could still light what I want to light up. 00:59:06
Without causing it. 00:59:09
But I just That's the promise you made. 00:59:12
I guess I don't have a chance because that. 00:59:19
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All right. We said we would move the discussion on the rezone after the text amendment to the PO zone to the top of the agenda 00:00:10
which we are at. 00:00:15
You know, to restate, it looked like this went through the Planning Commission process and the PC and the staff were not in favor 00:00:23
of of approving this text amendment and more in favor of including this in the broader discussion that will. 00:00:31
Go forward as a general plan review is executed. 00:00:41
Remind me? 00:00:47
So long, I think right when I got on board, we went through that general it's every 10 years. It should so it have been 10 years 00:00:49
ago. 00:00:53
I'm trying to remember how long that process took. 00:00:57
I want to say like a year, yeah, about a year and a half. I think you received a document you weren't entirely happy with, and it 00:01:01
took a while to. 00:01:05
Revise it a little, yeah. 00:01:10
It is that we should be as far as the timeline is concerned for the rewrite. 00:01:15
We should be considering a full-fledged document this time next year. 00:01:21
Was there in the Planning Commission like? 00:01:25
Were people just. 00:01:29
Very much against. 00:01:30
This. 00:01:33
Adding the short term rental piece to the PO zone. 00:01:35
Umm, or more like it's we're so close to doing the general plan. 00:01:40
UPDATE Why don't we just wait and? 00:01:46
And let that process go forward as part of the vision for the entire city for the next 10 years. So that was more of the notion 00:01:49
only because it would have been needed to apply. 00:01:55
In all PO zones in any future reason? 00:02:01
So there weren't. 00:02:06
Finding out what are the STR's place in holiday. 00:02:08
Yeah, yeah, which is I think where this council is. I mean, I know the applicants here and they state when they go through this 00:02:12
stuff that this person's gonna live here and. 00:02:18
That we're considering like is it appropriate for the text amendment PO zone? Because if we do, then it's allowed. 00:02:25
Everywhere where PO currently exists and everywhere it potentially could exist, which is I think the reference to 38 locations. 00:02:33
Across the city, that's the issue. 00:02:42
You know, is it OK to have it next to the one that's being built on Highland Drop? 00:02:46
So but it is it. I'm just trying to clarify my home line. 00:02:50
STR's would be allowed in AC2 zone. That's something I needed correct in the record. No, there had never had been allowed. 00:02:56
What about the What about the RN zone? 00:03:05
Yes. 00:03:07
R2 and RN. 00:03:09
R2. 00:03:11
And you have to be a primary. 00:03:13
Look larger than 6060. 00:03:17
Is there a Rd. 00:03:25
Previous senior zone probably would have been, would have definitely been approved. 00:03:27
STR's have never. 00:03:32
Already. 00:03:36
I guess that's the thing I struggle with. Like you look at this piece of property, right? And well, I pulled up the MRM on the 00:03:40
zoning map. I pulled that up. There's some down by on the backside of. 00:03:47
Excited behind FedEx and others, but down there which is all really multi family, right absolutely. And so those wouldn't likely 00:03:55
ever be converting to Pi mean there's I suspect there's a substantial number of arms on properties right now that would never be 00:04:00
not likely to be moving to. 00:04:06
I would hope not. 00:04:13
The problem with that is that still very conservative. 00:04:15
When you convert. 00:04:18
Right. And then it goes, you know, there's one weird. 00:04:43
Residential piece on Highland Drive there. 00:04:48
And so that's where I guess and I think that residential piece is. 00:04:52
Or is it R12R1? Yeah, it's the same as everything brick, right? For some reason reaches out and grabs that. 00:04:57
You know, is there a mechanism? 00:05:12
Variance or something that will. 00:05:15
Uses land uses aren't available through the various process. 00:05:20
Various processes would be a variable from a standard. 00:05:25
Like a set back or a? 00:05:31
Banana use is really something, isn't? 00:05:35
Available to. 00:05:38
For a variance option, now the. 00:05:39
Director, you can interpret the land use table with similar types of uses if that becomes an issue. 00:05:42
If we have a land use table that has uses there in there and. 00:05:50
Maybe the type of use has been applied for can be interpreted as to be somewhat similar to. 00:05:53
Another type of use of zone, there is an allowance there, furniture. 00:06:00
Is it? 00:06:06
Remind me what the. 00:06:10
Test Remind me what's the HTMP section C says about this property as it relates to that it was. 00:06:12
In the staff report it was well iterated by the applicant that it. 00:06:22
Primarily commercial. 00:06:25
6200 S. 00:06:29
For Van Regal. 00:06:32
What's the rationale for not having short term rentals in the commercial zone again? Could you for or is that have to be already 00:06:40
that's already yeah, that that transient housing the. 00:06:47
Some type of. 00:06:56
Hotels in. 00:06:58
Bed breakfast, that's something that was primarily for. 00:07:00
Plus. 00:07:08
I think that these properties. 00:07:13
Most of these properties. 00:07:16
Are on Island Drive or Murray Holiday Road and front those major arteria. 00:07:18
So those are your potential reasons to PO. 00:07:24
And if they are rezoned, PO. 00:07:28
There can be an office. 00:07:31
Take that piece in particular. They want to turn that into an apartment STR. 00:07:32
If it wasn't, it could be an office. 00:07:38
Right, whatever is allowed in the PO zone. 00:07:42
I'm trying to. 00:07:48
Beside in my own mind, what the difference is between an office commercial use in that space? 00:07:50
And a short term rental in that space in terms of impact of the community. 00:07:57
I would agree with you that, yeah, it doesn't seem terribly significant. And to me it would pull them out of the neighborhoods 00:08:04
more if we have more allowed options out of the neighborhoods because the neighborhoods are where it seems like it's really 00:08:10
problematic. But to me, the question it looks like from the staff report and the Planning Commission is this to me is I would say 00:08:15
that it's worth looking at. 00:08:21
But I would be interested in knowing why they didn't do it before. I mean, there's lots of pieces to whether or not I would 00:08:27
support it, but it's worth looking at. But to me, the question was whether or not we address it now or we address it later with 00:08:32
the general plan. And I, I can kind of see both, but either one I think is. 00:08:37
Going to be a long process. I mean, we're looking at the ad use and we've been looking at that for almost a year anyways, it's not 00:08:42
going to be a quick process. 00:08:46
Well. 00:08:51
Addictive. 00:08:53
I think the tax amendment could be a quick process because we could basically. 00:08:55
If we don't, if we don't think it's an issue and we don't think it. 00:09:00
Merits. I'm just saying I'm just throwing this out for argument's sake if we don't think it merits. 00:09:04
A delay if we think there's no justification. 00:09:12
For controversy associated with. 00:09:16
SDR conditional. 00:09:20
Use. Why would we force it to be delayed for a year and a half? 00:09:23
And couldn't it still be considered as part of the master plan process even? 00:09:30
Can you explain with the current MRI zone how does it work on the conditional use somebody does that have to have pretty strict 00:09:36
guidelines as to what like if certain conditions are met then it's granted? You know from an entitlement perspective or? 00:09:43
Yeah. So if through the public process, if there's determined to be an impact. 00:09:51
Of that, use to either the neighborhood or the surrounding area. 00:09:56
Planning Commission can apply conditions to mitigate that impact. 00:10:01
If they can't drive to conditions they can mitigate, then they can. 00:10:04
It's very difficult. 00:10:08
With set parameters specific tailored to that site that use. 00:10:13
And just. 00:10:19
Clarified if. 00:10:22
In this particular case, if they wanted to rebuild and they wanted to build with the intent of creating an STR, it has different. 00:10:24
It's that is a different licensing requirements which is going to require a different. 00:10:34
Permitting. 00:10:38
So if somebody had. 00:10:40
The existing building. 00:10:43
And they said oh I want to convert. 00:10:44
This office up here to a short term rental residential rental they would have to. 00:10:47
Convert they would have to put life safety. 00:10:53
Improvements into that space to actually be able to do it as part of the conditional use. 00:10:57
Yeah, and that's the building code is a completely different server, right? You're now converting a business use space, which is 00:11:01
designed for business use itself. 00:11:06
Assembly types. 00:11:11
To a residential which is. 00:11:13
Yeah, the bathroom, you don't have egress, all kinds of stuff you got. 00:11:15
Problem anyway, regardless of the sum. 00:11:19
Cooking facilities. 00:11:22
Currently the PO zone. 00:11:29
If you look at the uses. 00:11:32
And you go through the whole residential section, you see. 00:11:34
Except we look at the PUD planned unit development, mixed-use planned unit development where residential is an accessory as 00:11:38
opposed to primary use, and you just have this designation called PUD Plan Unit Development. 00:11:46
And that's the only place where you see a residential use in the PO zone at present. 00:11:54
But then also in the definition of short term rentals and this would just be this is what we're deciding though. 00:12:01
And this is the point I was trying to make earlier, but I don't think it was an oversight. Of course, that could be 00:12:08
misinterpreting that as well. 00:12:11
But short term rentals, the definition of short term rentals as defined in Chapter 1304, the title. This is a section 13.76 dot 00:12:14
735 definition of short-term Rample in our code. 00:12:20
Short term rentals as defined in Chapter 34. This title should only be approved by the Planning Commission. If A and there's, you 00:12:26
know. 00:12:30
But hey, the dwelling unit is located in a single family or two family dwelling but not located in a PUD. 00:12:36
So it's specifically saying, OK, you can have residential uses in a PUD and a PO zone, but. 00:12:43
But not if it's a PUD. 00:12:50
Excludes residential years. What's that? 00:12:53
But I just it just says that you can have a short term rental. 00:12:57
But not in a PUD. And it just so happens that PUD is the only place where there's a residential use for PO zone. 00:13:02
So it's specifically excluding short term rentals. 00:13:10
From the PO zone was president. 00:13:13
Was he doing? Was that a beauty? 00:13:18
So you can have a long term rental or. 00:13:24
As long as it's not. 00:13:30
Yeah, the definition of short term rental. 00:13:35
Currently includes that exception. 00:13:37
So that seems rather purposeful. 00:13:40
Whether the purpose is good or not. And that's something we have an opportunity to evaluate and change being a legislative body. 00:13:42
But. 00:13:45
It seems like it was put in there rather purposefully, it wasn't just an oversight. 00:13:49
And so that leads to the question of what were those? 00:13:53
And so it tells all leads to that. 00:13:57
Maybe we don't just go slam down, make the change, but rather have a more thoughtful. 00:13:59
Process which would be. 00:14:06
Part of the general plan review. 00:14:08
Certainly think we should be thoughtful. I just don't know that. I guess where I struggle again is and I'm all believe I get. 00:14:10
Go to Airbnb's lot and have one up in Idaho. Get the conflict that they can do with neighbors and those types of things. 00:14:19
But any place, and this is where I struggle is if these especially to have that 66 foot, you know, if you're on a major road and 00:14:26
you think all the businesses that can be open until 9:00 or 10:00 at night and the impact that those would have. 00:14:34
Comparatively. 00:14:42
I don't know. I agree, but this is the zone, not this property. 00:14:45
Right. We're texting the zone, but this, like this one right here is like sitting by itself on an island. I agree. And if it were 00:14:49
an application for the site only, that's an easier argument to make. But it's for the Zone, which can be anywhere in the city. 00:14:58
You look at, Yeah. 00:15:09
This might be a crazy. 00:15:14
But do you think there's a? 00:15:17
Affordable housing. 00:15:19
On this decision because it occurs to me. 00:15:22
Allowing long term rentals. 00:15:25
Is a way to sort of move towards some affordable housing. 00:15:29
But if we allow that a short term rental, does that sort of undermine that or? 00:15:32
Based on the locations of where some of these professional offices are. 00:15:39
Probably is not much impact. 00:15:44
Short term rentals. 00:15:47
It is primarily commercial venture and removing homes and apartments for commercial venture really good for otherwise be occupied 00:15:50
by a family. Yes, there is an impact there. 00:15:56
If we were to allow this, is there a way that we could put some kind of I don't know if conditions on the number of properties in 00:16:03
the city or at each area to stay only X number of units or certain percentage of units can be short term rentals and the rest have 00:16:09
to be? 00:16:14
Long term rentals because if we did, if we could do something like that, it could encourage maybe property owners to. Is that 00:16:20
something? That's definitely something a lot of cities have been able to do that and they've been fairly successful. As far as I 00:16:26
understand it has turned into a bit of a lottery situation when it Max out those numbers and then when someone just waits for the 00:16:33
one to expire and the next person in line comes in but. 00:16:39
Sandy works that way. They distribute them out throughout the city. 00:16:46
We have a certain percentage of those apartment complex we allow for the way generally is still a big channel. 00:16:51
So the PO zones a commercial zone? 00:17:01
Yes, this is a commercial venture. 00:17:04
No, yeah, and. 00:17:06
And going backwards on this because originally I thought a certain way and now I'm thinking about it a little bit differently, 00:17:09
more along the lines of I think what Emily was getting to, which is. 00:17:14
And what? 00:17:21
This location outwithstanding the PO zone does require a larger setback from residential neighborhoods, correct. We just kind of 00:17:23
went through that underheld. It isn't like 30 feet, it is and. 00:17:29
And whether this use is in that space. If it's not, it's going to be another commercial use. 00:17:37
That's allowed in the zone that's going to have a certain amount of intensity and I can't imagine that that intensity would be. 00:17:44
More than probably what an STR would generate. 00:17:51
And it's almost like if you're. 00:17:57
I don't like it. I mean, personally, I don't like STR's inside residential neighborhoods. 00:17:59
If you're going to have them, there would be. 00:18:05
What would be the justification to say this is not where it should be? 00:18:07
Because it's not this. It's going to be some other commercial use, right? And frankly, I'd rather see it here than ours. 00:18:12
Which then just begs the whole question. We just need to have a greater policy discussion generally about stores and where they go 00:18:20
forcibility and I'm OK. There's also the property tax issue exemption. Is it commercial? That's another reason I'd like to have 00:18:25
them in PO and commercial space because it doesn't, it's less likely to get the residential property tax haircut, which it 00:18:31
shouldn't get as a commercial. 00:18:36
If it's in an R1 zone, it likely is getting it. 00:18:43
And if we know about it because they're applying for it, well then would we get the transient tax from the short term rentals, it 00:18:46
would be licensed separately, yes. So we would be able to because I think the more we can track those. 00:18:52
They would be a lot easier to track. 00:18:58
Because you're going to know they're there and they're going to have to have a license. You have to make sure there's life safety 00:19:01
issues associated with it. 00:19:04
But it's also. They're also going to be. 00:19:09
For the most part, separate from residential areas, they front commercial streets for the most part in or off of Highland Driver, 00:19:12
Murray Holiday Rd. So the impact of neighborhoods is actually a lot less and the intensity of the use is most likely going to be a 00:19:19
lot less than what the alternate uses are that are allowed in the PO zone. And so now I'm trying to talk myself in the back of how 00:19:26
you justify that it's not an appropriate use. 00:19:33
In the PO zone I'm more interested in. 00:19:41
People. 00:19:45
Rezoning something to. 00:19:47
Part 2. 00:19:50
Inside of a residential area and then turning them into an investment properties as SDR's. 00:19:52
And having an inappropriate having a disproportionate impact on residential neighborhoods, that's what I don't want. This doesn't 00:19:59
really scare me. 00:20:03
Could there be a? 00:20:10
Requirement that part of it does have to be office space that. 00:20:12
And the way you do that would be requiring that that. 00:20:18
Short term rental being accessory to you have to establish the office 1st and then you can have your so we've changed this 00:20:23
thirteen, 76735 that specifically excludes PUD. 00:20:28
That would and then then it just becomes an accessory and allowable accessory use. 00:20:34
Under the PUD. 00:20:41
Use in the PO zone. 00:20:44
I might want to look at that a little more carefully because that could disrupt. 00:20:47
Situation. 00:20:52
In other established communities, their primary residential. I don't think we want to hurt that. 00:20:56
Oh, so maybe, yeah. So maybe change language, short term rental here, the PUD, but then be more specific about the zones and PUD 00:21:02
combination. I did want to address what Matt brought up about affecting moderate income housing if there's a way that we could. 00:21:11
I'm still trying to figure this out in my head, but there's a way that we could say if you have more than X number of units. 00:21:21
So many need to be long term resources. I don't know what you said about other cities. 00:21:27
Do on that I just am wondering. 00:21:32
I don't love those persons because like those taxi patches, you know, like those kinds of things. That's a fairpoint. You have 00:21:34
like these. Sure. 00:21:38
Easier to enforce something that would be so for example when we were talking about this. 00:21:44
I have on my. 00:21:50
To Do List during the general plan is to talk about and hopefully. 00:21:52
Reconfirm your Hyundai master plan. 00:21:58
Maybe it'll also include what could be possibly a Blvd. Commercial Blvd. 00:22:01
Land use plan for all the way up and down. 00:22:06
That would address these types of situations. 00:22:10
The zone that can be used, that's up and down island, maybe in the individual sections, or those uses are focused inward rather 00:22:12
than. 00:22:17
Having percentage of uses maybe allowed throughout the city. 00:22:21
Yes, they have a place and here's here's from the Council's point of view whether they should be located. 00:22:26
That makes sense, yeah. I mean in terms of affordable housing impacts the. 00:22:32
I'm not sure how this would. 00:22:39
Impact that issue because. 00:22:41
An owner is going to evaluate this as a commercial piece of property. 00:22:43
And whether they, you know, whether they're. 00:22:49
Their ROI is going to be better if they've got a. 00:22:52
Insurance office in there where they turn it into an STR. 00:22:56
And I don't particularly care about that if that makes more financial sense. You're just going to have to make sure that your 00:23:00
residential use. 00:23:05
Meets code. 00:23:10
Right. If you decide to put residents in there, where it's getting impacted is when people go inside neighborhoods and buy homes. 00:23:12
Build in an R2 zone knowing they can put SDR in there with no intent of having the owner occupied and then they rent it out and it 00:23:21
drives the prices up and it takes. 00:23:26
Residential properties off the market for families trying to enter into it. I think that has a major impact on affordable housing, 00:23:32
but I'm not sure this. I'd be interested in looking at what we do the general families regardless of what we do. I wouldn't want 00:23:38
to necessarily just have a. 00:23:44
Grant an expansion of STR privileges. I think overall in the general plan we should try to figure out how to. 00:23:51
Squeeze STR's generally, but not necessarily out of this zone. 00:24:00
Expanding into this zone, but I also like to maybe squeeze it out of R2. 00:24:05
Although then again, you know lots of Airbnbs are single family homes. 00:24:10
But that. 00:24:14
That is a bad use of single family homes as they are, even though a lot of people use them. It's a bad use for people and they 00:24:16
figured out they can make money buying them and renting them and it takes them off the market and then it drives the. I mean, 00:24:24
anyway, that's a whole different discussion, but. 00:24:31
I mean this this is just. 00:24:39
Sure, I had an issue with this. And then if they want to tackle that, I'd have no problem tackling during the general general 00:24:41
planned process. 00:24:45
Like the other issue of well do we want? 00:24:49
Do we want a? 00:24:52
Because I'm not sure you'd want. 00:24:54
Somebody to rezone PO and then have the whole thing be residential SDRS. 00:24:56
If we did this, could they do that? 00:25:03
No, you'd have to establish a primary. So it's so it now requires that they have the primary still has the office that's real PUD 00:25:05
residential and that was sort of the intent of the POS, so you can have a good work situation. 00:25:12
That does create affordability, yeah. Because I mean, it seemed to me. It seemed to me. 00:25:20
Because I came in with a certain mindset here, but. 00:25:27
In the staff report and then during the applicant's presentation, they talked about. 00:25:31
The check boxes in the general plan and whatnot, it didn't seem to, it didn't seem like really violated those. 00:25:36
So the justification was really, you know what, we're getting ready to do a general plan update and let's just. 00:25:43
Let them tackle it there where if there's other major problem with it. 00:25:49
I don't see what our justification being not to allow it to be a conditional use and then let the general plan process go forward. 00:25:54
Yeah, the only, the only thing that worries me now is I agree with you. The only thing that worries me is that. 00:26:02
Unintended consequences. We haven't given enough to really think about your pull string here and next thing. 00:26:07
The question of whether or not someone rezones it so they can primarily have a block of short term rentals, whether they're having 00:26:17
an office, maybe they have a rent short term rental office as their primary use in the corner of the building and the 90% of The 00:26:24
thing is now short term. So those sorts of, you know, unintended consequences things in this particular scenario. 00:26:32
I agree, I have no problem with it. 00:26:41
But this is a larger issue than just this one property, and there's almost those darn unintended consequences. That's the only 00:26:43
thing that kind of. 00:26:47
Constants are here today, and they'll be heard. 00:26:53
Down the road, if we, you know, I would say let's think about it then and let's look at it and see what you know, I don't know. 00:26:56
Do you have any concerns like about well because this council and councils before have been so careful on your rezone? 00:27:03
There's not a little thing. Yeah. And it would also address Mr. Neslins concerns. 00:27:12
Station just got in and resolved. 00:27:18
All the room office buildings to the PO just to make it easier for. 00:27:20
Myself so I won't have to go through the process. 00:27:24
Council came to that decision years ago and decided no. 00:27:27
Every property owner will identify and we'll consider it individually. 00:27:32
So at least from that point of view. 00:27:37
If the change does make it does happen, then you have the opportunity. 00:27:40
To look at each individual property and. 00:27:44
Measure all of the requirements allowances. 00:27:46
That space in particular, if it makes sense for them to prove that. 00:27:49
When you look at the RM's you can see why I think I can see why they would have wanted to do. 00:27:54
Because of where some of them are right in the middle of some. 00:27:58
Yes, most of your office buildings are already on arterial side. 00:28:02
But like over by Spring Lane, there there's a big arm zone that's, well, it's. 00:28:10
Yeah. 00:28:17
Yeah, and you know, we're having issues right now with. 00:28:20
With office owners. 00:28:24
Wanted to get tenants in. 00:28:26
Under the RM zone. 00:28:29
That are completely different in outside of the allowances that even the room zone could could provide. 00:28:31
YARN Zone didn't allow for medical use or personal services. 00:28:38
So when you have tenant or spaces that's open and they're looking for tenants and massage therapy needs to go in or one it wasn't 00:28:42
available in the end zone. 00:28:47
So we're asking the property already, go ahead and just rezone it at PO. 00:28:52
So you can get all these other tenants in there and then. 00:28:57
When they start weighing ROI, they're like, well. 00:28:59
Cost per square footage for residential right now is much higher than it would be for office. 00:29:03
RM and now we have enforcement problem. 00:29:09
It's tricky. 00:29:15
Just kind of that person that. 00:29:16
I was speaking to right so the nearest point. 00:29:19
They're all kind of commercial activities, right? Yeah. 00:29:24
Yeah. And not terribly impactful, I don't think. Yeah, so he's requesting. 00:29:30
They're still going to have to, yeah, they're still going to have to meet condition if they apply for it. They're still going to 00:29:39
be conditions. They have to meet to put it in. 00:29:43
So you are overly concerned? No, I mean, that's why the sack report is so lengthy. It tries to give you both sides and scary's 00:29:48
done a good job of that. 00:29:53
Yes, I mean. 00:30:01
Doesn't it kind of come down to whether we really think we have justification that kind of? 00:30:02
Kick the can down the road waiting for the general plan to deal with the issue. 00:30:08
As long as you're OK with the premise of. 00:30:15
Removing all office uses from our end zone to create professional office in particular. 00:30:18
That was the impetus of creating the. 00:30:24
If you're allowed to keep adding in residential uses to that PO zone, which kind of detracts from what the intent was initially. 00:30:28
It's really not that. 00:30:36
What does RM zones convert to at some point? Or would they maybe just not say or not? 00:30:39
And this is the general plan. We decide what a different animal they are. 00:30:46
These ones that are, you know, in the middle of the residential area, right? Yeah. 00:30:50
Some of the county, the county drastically. 00:30:55
Modify what? 00:30:58
The RM zone, it was when we incorporated. 00:31:00
It was kind of frozen in time. 00:31:05
Maximum 16 units an acre, 40 foot Max height. 00:31:07
County has changed that to almost a 32 unit per acre count to 65 foot heights. 00:31:12
OK, so. 00:31:21
Well. 00:31:23
I guess the bottom line is. 00:31:25
I don't think it's that complicated. It's just whether we're, if we get comfortable that we don't think there's. 00:31:28
That between now and the 17th is. 00:31:34
Figure out if there's unintended consequences that are going to cause us discomfort. 00:31:37
Or it's a bad balance concern. It's hard to foresee. And we're talking about land use here. And that's the thing that always. 00:31:43
Yeah, that's people's hair on fire. 00:31:51
Umm, the only would be is, you know. 00:31:58
Office tenant user that now all of a sudden has 24 access to their building for a residential space that's upstairs, downstairs 00:32:01
next. 00:32:05
That would be from the tenants point of view. 00:32:10
Would that be our issue or would that be the land? 00:32:16
So you're thinking somebody? 00:32:21
Erecting a cot in their office and living there. 00:32:26
Yes. 00:32:29
But through the SDR requirements that the space has to be inspected and brought up to. 00:32:32
Major issue. 00:32:43
And again. 00:32:46
And also gets you. 00:32:49
Voice to say to residents or those that are looking for US yards and neighborhoods, look, they were creating locations for these 00:32:51
spaces to go. That's where they belong. 00:32:55
Well, I still think it should be posted for both. 00:33:07
If you can't, if we can't get clarity by then, then we can always delay the little we could always delay the vote, but. 00:33:11
And even. 00:33:19
Yeah, yeah. 00:33:23
OK. 00:33:25
All right, any other? 00:33:27
Todd Isms. 00:33:29
Todd Wisdom we should receive. 00:33:32
To your zoning districts for a particular application, right? 00:33:39
That's the one hesitancy that I have here. 00:33:44
You've talked about it enough, you know. 00:33:46
Yeah, I think. 00:33:50
Paul. 00:33:51
We're talking about the PO zone, and I hate that. 00:33:53
To use a specific example, use this specific example, because if we do it, it's going to be a PO zone text amendment. And so 00:33:57
everybody's going to be allowed to do it and we have to be comfortable with that. 00:34:02
That's the question. Is there, Yeah. Is there a place for SCRS? And if so, would this, should it be resumed? I don't like STR, but 00:34:08
I gotta tell you, if we have to have them, I'd rather have them here than the neighborhood. 00:34:15
Yeah, I mean, I'm also just reminded of the. 00:34:22
We came this close to putting P use in AC2 zone and we almost. 00:34:25
Messed up by an entire C2 zone as a result. 00:34:31
And that was a last minute Hail Mary. Oopsie. We almost messed up the city in the whole. 00:34:35
58 acre projects, that's the kind of things that made me a little. We've got a couple weeks to look into this and make sure I'm 00:34:40
comfortable with our boat, whatever that boat is. 00:34:45
Is it possible? I don't know in the meantime to. 00:34:51
Requested John and Kerry kind of do some looking at that and just seeing if there's any other problems that they anticipate or 00:34:55
something or is that going to be similar to? 00:35:00
Commissioner, Council. 00:35:07
Yeah, dedicate some brain cycles to foreseeing. 00:35:09
Do you need like a crystal ball? 00:35:14
Something similar to the DABC? 00:35:23
Distance rule. 00:35:26
Well, again, it gives us a little bit of time maybe to go look at those 38. 00:35:36
The current, the current POS and then the 38 that are potential POS and just make sure we're comfortable with where they are. So 00:35:42
should this happen and come up, we'd be OK with it. 00:35:47
So what would the process be? As far as attaching, I'm assuming we're talking about a conditional use. 00:35:53
When? 00:35:59
Start the Planning Commission. 00:36:04
That would be modify the conditions themselves. We probably would need to take a look at something like that. Even have a 00:36:06
modification to allow the stores in a PUD. But if you have them in the land use table as an outright allowance for an accessory 00:36:12
use, I think that would be. That's exactly what it's going to apply for. 00:36:18
So if we wanted to. 00:36:27
Attach some conditions. 00:36:30
When would that happen? 00:36:32
Through this process. 00:36:34
Yeah, they applied for the conditional, they applied for the use. 00:36:37
Than the Planning Commission would place conditions on the STR. I'm not sure if Kerry included a reference to that section that 00:36:41
Paul quoted. 00:36:46
But I can e-mail that out to you can look at what? 00:36:52
Concerning to you. 00:36:59
It's pretty solid. 00:37:00
Where they basically assess the impact. 00:37:03
Because they're assessing impact like for example in an R2 zone, which. 00:37:07
Very close to everyone. 00:37:12
So impact is. 00:37:14
All right, well. 00:37:22
It's going to be on the October 17th agenda for both. 00:37:25
We appreciate that. Thank you. 00:37:29
All right. Thanks. 00:37:34
John, you're still up 80 years. 00:37:38
As we stated earlier, this is this is what is the. 00:37:41
Supposedly final cleanup language after four or five iterations of this. 00:37:47
Yes, so. 00:37:53
I'll let you kind of, I mean, if there's anything that you want to make sure we're clear on that you're clear on. Yeah, two 00:37:55
things. Primarily we wanted to ensure that if you have an existing building and you wanted to convert to an Adu, there was a chart 00:38:03
in there that that basically requires the applicant to buffer a set back that wouldn't. 00:38:11
Currently. 00:38:20
For a new Adu. 00:38:23
You had a set of distances in there that might. 00:38:26
Might be a little too restrictive. 00:38:28
So the idea was just to eliminate that and use existing. 00:38:31
Accessory building setbacks that you have for your lot size. 00:38:35
Because that's probably going to be applicable to a lot of detached structures, pool houses, garage, and. 00:38:39
Et cetera that have been built within the last 10 years. 00:38:46
Otherwise, those buildings that have been built on the last 10 years would have to. 00:38:50
Increase their setbacks somehow. 00:38:55
Because they're already non compliant if you want to convert. 00:38:57
The idea is new Adu's would just match those setbacks that are already in place for an accessory build. 00:39:01
So no difference in accessory building, accessory dwelling, external accessory dwelling. Correct? 00:39:07
Same setbacks, yeah. 00:39:12
The other notion is that if I remember correctly, through my nose and I went through. 00:39:15
The audio I was. 00:39:20
Certainly that the 25 foot height allowance was acceptable. 00:39:23
For Nadu, previously accessory buildings are allowed to Max height of 20 feet. We left that in there at 25. 00:39:27
I didn't change that to reduce it. 00:39:36
That does allow for extra high. So we already had a garage. I think we talked about in existing garage they want to put an extra 00:39:40
story on top. Livability would allow for the extra 5 feet to be safe there would actually work. 00:39:47
The building envelope still applies. 00:39:56
To keep the. 00:40:00
The massing of that 25 foot would still have to be centered over the house or the garage. 00:40:01
So yeah, that. 00:40:08
And with those? 00:40:12
Distances. We did we. 00:40:15
Talk about where did we end up with Windows and where they were facing on. I think we we eliminated that for egress, yeah. 00:40:19
And then ensuring that if you had an existing garage, I'm thinking and we all know the specific example I'm talking about and you 00:40:39
had a subgrade Adu. 00:40:44
And the garage itself was non conforming. 00:40:51
If it was underground or subgrade, then 100% reduction would be allowed. If it's that, the setback is not. 00:40:53
Because it really is a small impact. 00:41:02
Other than that, is there some grammar and numbering? 00:41:07
It's still a mess. 00:41:11
It's a memory and grammar that we. 00:41:14
We try to clean up. 00:41:16
But if that's primarily what I think we're still on the same page with, we can. 00:41:18
We can get a very clean document back and. 00:41:22
OK, great. 00:41:29
Thanks for all your work. 00:41:31
This has been a big lift, but this will be a good feather in our hat for right as far as we definitely want monster credit from 00:41:35
the legislature. 00:41:39
Yes it will. 00:41:48
Yeah, we staged this so we can get years of credit. 00:41:51
So we'll put. 00:41:57
Clean version with the hearing notice. 00:41:58
I've said all along we're a maximum price here. 00:42:05
Where is that? 00:42:12
Yeah. OK. So the lighting issue is, so we had Andy Wyden. I thought, wow. 00:42:15
Good timing because. 00:42:25
Think he was complaining about those two houses on Walker that had been built and they have. 00:42:27
A lot of fence lighting, I think, and well, you know, actually I've got a couple in my neighborhood, Steve West. 00:42:32
His neighbor is Steve West. I play tennis with. He's right across the street from the club. Got those two new houses. 00:42:40
And the one next to him, he says the new lighting on the side of the house is going right in his bedroom. Well, the ones that are 00:42:46
on the corner of Lakewood and Cottonwood Club that have just been built that big, you know? 00:42:52
Like, Oh yeah. And underneath them they put their. I mean, it's like a Christmas tree when they're on. Yeah, just. 00:43:01
Stephanie, if you want to go, I don't know, I can go through these slides, but I think we have a really decent idea, I think. I 00:43:10
think you showed the. 00:43:14
Commercial and then here's with properly. 00:43:20
Hooded, yeah. And so the question you have, I think is, is there an appetite? 00:43:25
To move some of our Commercial Code. 00:43:32
And explore whether we want to. 00:43:35
Start looking at residential areas in terms of doing the same things on new builds and remodels. Exactly. 00:43:38
This will require an additional level of review when a house comes in, similar now to landscaping. 00:43:45
Because landscaping was something we never really looked at before now regard to. 00:43:53
And then enforce on after the house is built. 00:43:58
So. 00:44:01
You know, where would you like if you want to go? 00:44:02
Maybe to the next one. 00:44:07
No, it's. 00:44:14
This one. 00:44:18
Because the house can be built and be still compliant, but over a weekend software lighting you can go in quickly. 00:44:22
Very quickly. 00:44:29
And the problem with at least in the market around here, you go to Lowe's or Home Depot. 00:44:31
And you're looking for a security light, which you might need because of an issue. 00:44:37
You're not going to find a dark second client fixture, or you'll be hard pressed to find one in the aisle. 00:44:45
And So what people go out and buy that's easily accessible is not going to be dark second plant. 00:44:52
So I guess what we try to do, because we have some of those standards that are commercial zones. 00:45:05
Those are scrutinized by the Planning Commission. 00:45:10
By being full cut off words, a different type of spectrum, you can see when you drive through the village what that looks like. 00:45:13
Very well done. Spectrum of light is more of the yellow. 00:45:20
And even though that's a commercial area, it doesn't impede them. 00:45:25
So that level of review and enforcement will be transferring over to residential property. 00:45:32
It's doable for some municipalities, but would create them immediately. 00:45:40
Gigantic number of non performance issues. 00:45:45
So they either have to figure out at what point do they need to come into compliance, or they just come into compliance when a new 00:45:48
house gets built or a new addition gets built there. 00:45:53
We have built them into the Adu code, so there is already dark stacking plants. 00:45:59
Requirements when they have a PDU. 00:46:04
So that's taken care of. 00:46:07
Disappeared pretty much everything else. 00:46:09
And primarily some of the other issues that we've heard is complaints are. 00:46:12
Seasonal lighting and scorecard lighting which does create issues. What's our current? 00:46:19
So. 00:46:28
And it has to have the full hood cut off. 00:46:33
Normally those types of fixtures are movable. 00:46:38
So they'll have the full hood cut off, but they'll tilt it up. 00:46:41
So that across the property line you can see the element. 00:46:45
And that coat of light gets shined across the property line. So Warren will go out at least in an evening patrol when he does have 00:46:48
an evening patrol. 00:46:53
You'll look at all of the support complaints and then work with the property just adjusted. 00:46:57
So usually there's there's some element of. 00:47:03
Civility when we address some problems, like the issues we're seeing on block or lane. 00:47:07
To just either one change the type or color of the LED bulb that's in there. 00:47:13
Or put full cut off hood. 00:47:18
That would be similar to. 00:47:21
Yeah, something like it's either the better or faster situation. 00:47:26
The direct light where it needs to be shining, not necessarily everywhere. 00:47:30
That's sort of the whole. 00:47:35
Premise of Dark Sky compliant. 00:47:37
It's used like where it needs to be used. 00:47:39
Not necessarily shining it all over. 00:47:42
Another consideration that maybe we might ask. 00:47:48
You to consider where. 00:47:51
If we want to have dark side compliance. 00:47:54
Is it in the development code or is this a health? 00:47:58
Because there's, yeah, there's a lot of research out there that light trespass and light pollution does affect our health. 00:48:03
That's affected by wildlife, especially when the color spectrums are used in the wider whites and bluish range. 00:48:11
Affecting migration patterns All sorts of. 00:48:20
Won't be the disadvantage of putting it in one point again as far as enforcement or it would be the same that it would be a Class 00:48:25
B. 00:48:29
Probably a lot easier than a. 00:48:38
As a health regulation, because that can be applied. 00:48:40
Otherwise you put in development code. You need to make sure that it's specific to all zones. 00:48:44
As a health regulation, just like noise, regardless of where you are. 00:48:51
Where that noise is emanating from, it's a violation. 00:48:56
Have you rolled that out though? 00:48:59
And how do you roll that out in a built out city with? 00:49:02
Houses built in the 20s all the way to yesterday. I think imperfectly, but it's better to do something cuz there's people who will 00:49:06
always push the envelope and then there's people who will comply because they're people who comply and you'll have an improvement 00:49:11
but they'll be grandfathered. 00:49:17
They would have to be and then, and then it would just be. 00:49:25
New construction remodels, so that would have to be a consideration. We had a sunset date where all those non compliant 00:49:30
situations. 00:49:34
Have to commit. 00:49:38
If we didn't do that, John, wouldn't we create? 00:49:41
A potential major issue in the city. 00:49:44
Neighbors are now. 00:49:47
Reporting on other neighbors. 00:49:50
Because they're not compliant. 00:49:53
There was an interesting presentation I think a year ago at the ULCD. 00:49:56
Conference from the City of Molab. 00:50:02
And they did this and they had. 00:50:05
I can't remember. 00:50:09
Several years to. 00:50:10
Require every single home, business, everything in the city of Moab to go dark sky compliant and. 00:50:13
I remember the bottom line was. 00:50:21
Give yourself a long time because it was a really hard transition process, so. 00:50:24
I think it makes more sense at least. 00:50:30
Initially to start with. 00:50:33
Just new, new builds and rebuilds, remodels and then as people get more. 00:50:37
Exactly. Then down the road, you know, maybe start. 00:50:44
You start off with rebates for compliance. Yeah, as a more gradual effect or a more gradual process, yeah. Those programs are 00:50:50
really successful and many proponents of. 00:50:57
Of dark sky standards point to those cities. 00:51:04
But primarily when you look at all those cities as a whole. 00:51:08
They're usually near or close by national parks, state parks, lands where people want to go out and enjoy. 00:51:11
Their brand deal with the cycle. 00:51:21
They're not internal communities where there's already other light. 00:51:24
And if Mill Creek and Cotton Heights, don't do it? 00:51:31
See, I'm just concerned about, I mean, I would love to have dark sky where we can see lots of stars, but I'm less concerned about 00:51:35
that and more concerned about. 00:51:38
Your neighbors light shining into your bedroom like those kind of issues to be honest. 00:51:42
So we have had those problems in the past and it's always. 00:51:47
How is Microsoft enforcement working with the property owners? 00:51:54
Unless there's a dramatic Hatfield McCoy problem. And is there any Utah Civil Code? 00:51:58
Outside of what we would have to do where if the neighbor is bugged by a new light that's going right and is better than it wasn't 00:52:07
there before until there's new construction. 00:52:11
Can they just handle that civilly or is that? 00:52:16
And sometimes we help mediate that. 00:52:21
Good extent. 00:52:24
And just to help them see what the benefits are for both sides, what they can use their light for. So we have some slides in here 00:52:27
that talk about security lighting. That's primarily what they want it used for. But they'll go out and buy a floodlight, which 00:52:33
goes directly across property lines. But if we can show you, Warren is really good at you doing this, showing them that they can 00:52:39
use light in a way that still illuminates what they need to. 00:52:45
Secure, but still not trespass. 00:52:52
The way I'm confused I thought it sounds like we're already doing some enforcement on this but I thought we didn't have any. We 00:52:55
don't have any teeth but it's always going out in with soft sided approach and just explaining. 00:53:00
Look, we have codes that prevent commercial property from affecting residential. 00:53:06
It would be really nice if you kind of play along. 00:53:12
And here's what you can do. 00:53:15
Still have benefit life without intruding on neighbors other than the sport courts. We do have code right now, is that right? Oh 00:53:17
no, I'm sorry. Supports we do have. 00:53:22
Lighting percentage for. 00:53:27
But as far as yard lighting, decorative lighting, softened lighting. 00:53:30
Christmas lights? Does this impose if we were to go this route? 00:53:35
I'm assuming that we're catching it in the design phase right before people. 00:53:40
Because that's my other concern is that you know, people are just they don't know, you know, who can keep track of all whatever, 00:53:44
right. So we're catching that in the design phase and it's going through approval process there. So and then is it imposing any 00:53:49
more cost burden? 00:53:54
To go dark side versus not this material, I don't know for sure, but if I similar to. 00:53:59
I think it's about second. 00:54:08
Two or three slides in. 00:54:11
You're not going to find them around. 00:54:14
Like they want to match the size of the house. It's a special order. 00:54:17
So there could possibly be a cost. 00:54:23
What is it like a couple 100? 00:54:26
Dollar cut, I mean when you're building a house like this is like a couple $100 increase costs, are we talking? 00:54:28
Thousands of dollars. 00:54:34
Probably under. 00:54:37
Speaking of, have you seen the new latest pictures on the Apollo that have just been installed? 00:54:46
Yeah, full on black gas lights, gas lectures. They look gorgeous. Where's that? 00:54:50
Where the car wash used to be the residential commercial. 00:54:57
Yeah, yeah. If you had a chance to go drive there, probably on now. 00:55:04
There. 00:55:09
You know, I got I got an invitation for a little open house. Did you get that? Yes. Tomorrow night. Yeah. From 4:00 to 6:00 up 00:55:11
that they're. 00:55:16
So. 00:55:26
So possibly for new construction we can look at that and see. 00:55:28
Does that create problems? 00:55:34
No, it's just the level of review and enforcement. So let me ask you a question like when we went through the tree ordinance and 00:55:37
we amended the tree ordinance to replace, how much, what did that do to staff? 00:55:44
How did that impact staffers? 00:55:51
Well, at first it's a lot. 00:55:55
It definitely increased the burden of review. 00:56:00
Mostly because it required a lot of education for that property owner to understand. We need you need to go out and find an 00:56:03
arborist. 00:56:06
To go out and assess the trees you want to have removed. 00:56:11
Write a letter and then it's submitted to staff for review and it may or may not be reviewed or approved. 00:56:14
So it did add extra time. 00:56:21
Yeah, but. 00:56:28
We just roll it into the process we tried to make it. 00:56:31
Similar with landscaping. Yeah, I mean, I think that's where we're getting at. 00:56:36
I think we're trying to limit it to new builds. 00:56:40
If we just went. 00:56:44
It would be impossible to enforce it and. 00:56:46
Except for that seemed like we should have something that has some teeth for egregious problems to do that 'cause I mean, it just 00:56:49
it's a negative externality, right? Where you've got people that are put potentially we have no way to really do anything about 00:56:54
it, not really, especially like you're talking about. 00:56:59
Todd. 00:57:09
Whether it's. 00:57:14
They would fall back. It's been there. 00:57:17
The problem with that is that. 00:57:22
As we know with other situations we have a non conforming use or structure. 00:57:26
All you can do is maintain it and usually lights aren't that maintainable unless you have the old screw in bulbs. If it's an LED, 00:57:31
it has to be replaced. The whole fixture has to be replaced. 00:57:36
And that. 00:57:42
If those pictures be replaced, you have to come into compliance somehow. 00:57:43
Top are you shaking your head? 00:57:48
I hate these enforcement. 00:57:50
And they get so hard and. 00:57:52
Yeah, Who gets enforced upon and who doesn't? Then you've got initial remodeling, new construction, but then you just have 00:58:00
maintenance. So if we just did remodeling new construction, I mean that's going to be a burden on your shaft. 00:58:08
They're going to have to start looking at the kind of fixtures that go on garages, right? 00:58:17
Yeah, and on the back of houses. 00:58:23
That's an additional review burden. That's not. 00:58:26
Yeah, that's pretty handy. Can we get into that level of detail generally on other stuff? 00:58:29
Let's see the other stuff to between neighbors. 00:58:35
You mean just that they had a problem? Take it up civilly. Exactly. 00:58:43
And we're always going to help in that situation. 00:58:49
We have handouts and pamphlets that summarize a lot of this and what? 00:58:52
Like the picture of the type of fixtures that should be installed. 00:58:58
And when they understand. 00:59:04
I could still light what I want to light up. 00:59:06
Without causing it. 00:59:09
But I just That's the promise you made. 00:59:12
I guess I don't have a chance because that. 00:59:19
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