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Sugar. 00:00:00
Oh, sure. Happy dinner, all right. 00:00:01
Good evening. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 536. I believe we have everyone in attendance 00:00:05
except for Commissioners. Vilchinsky and Commissioner Gong are not with us at this time. Everyone else is here, city staff and 00:00:13
council. We have one public hearing item today for a zone amendment and then some minutes to approve. 00:00:21
Carrier, John, which one of us, which one of you will be walking us through this one exciting agenda item we have tonight? 00:00:30
That's me and I just discovered this microphone doesn't move so. 00:00:37
Which is very sad. The other one does. So the sole item on the agenda for a public hearing is a rezone from RM to PO. This is kind 00:00:43
of our standard rezones that we'll see for RM STPO. 00:00:50
The property owner has some additional uses that they'd like to utilize in the PO zone. Since those uses are not allowed in the 00:00:59
room zone, one of their tenants is provides massage services which is falls under personal service which is allowable in the PO 00:01:08
zone and not allowable in the room zone. So the RM zone originally only had office use. 00:01:18
So in order to have that tenant in the building, they need to. 00:01:29
Rezone so that they are compliant with the uses. 00:01:32
Any questions? It's pretty straightforward. 00:01:38
So did you have a question, Commissioner? 00:01:46
Yeah. 00:01:53
Yeah, it can be fun. It's good to be aware of what kind of crowd you get right. And they would like to have a business license, so 00:01:55
and we would also like them to have a business license. 00:02:00
So nothing is being done to this property. There's no changes happening. It's literally just a use allowance and it's basically 00:02:08
just pretty. 00:02:12
Taking something that's existing, non conforming and bringing it up like several others of these we have seen in the last couple 00:02:17
years, right? Yep, just expanding uses to beyond just an office use. So and then in the future the property owner could lease to 00:02:25
there's like dental laboratories, medical laboratories. 00:02:32
Professional services like salons. 00:02:41
There's more uses that are permitted in the PO zone than were originally in the RM zone. 00:02:45
So that was kind of the intention of the PO zone being created was to have more uses than the RM zone originally had, so that then 00:02:52
those property owners would have kind of that extra incentive to rezone. 00:02:58
But there's still residential component to PO, isn't there? Yeah, in the PO zone you can still do a conditional use permit for a 00:03:06
mixed-use development. So it just has to be accessory to the office uses. 00:03:13
So really, they're giving up nothing and just gaining and becoming compliant, which was the city's intent in the 1st place, yeah. 00:03:21
Complicated one, I know. Questions. 00:03:31
All right, and then we have the approval of minutes and in anticipation for our actual meeting. Did anyone have anything? First 00:03:35
off, I'm curious, did anyone go back and watch May's meeting just for grins and giggles? 00:03:42
OK, I didn't either like I just. 00:03:49
Keep up to date. I did not go back and watch it. I read through it. I didn't see anything that looked inaccurate or that needed to 00:03:56
be changed. Did anyone else see anything in May that caused concern? 00:04:01
OK. And then how about October 1st? Anything stand out to anybody on those meeting minutes if they had a chance to look over them? 00:04:07
All right. Well then that just makes that one a whole lot quicker to get through. 00:04:16
So really that means we got 20 minutes and we have council here and he loves to educate us. So I'm going to put you on the spot. 00:04:22
Is there anything that would be beneficial in the next 15 minutes for us to explore as a Commission? 00:04:28
Ethics. 00:04:35
I think it's a good idea always and I this is not related to holiday, so let me make that clear, nor to this Planning Commission, 00:04:38
but this has come up recently. I. 00:04:44
Conditional use permits. 00:04:52
Umm. 00:04:57
I want you to check the definition of conditional. 00:04:57
Forevermore when it comes to a conditional use permit. 00:05:01
They are permitted uses that allow you to put conditions on that are reasonably related, and they have to be related to the. 00:05:05
Perceived problem that they create right and you have to have and it's under a substantial evidence standard that you have to have 00:05:16
an objective standard. So for example, if you have an ordinance that says. 00:05:22
A hotel should not be next to, adjacent to. 00:05:30
Residential. 00:05:35
But then you have 1000 feet. 00:05:38
Between where the hotel will be and where the 1st house is. 00:05:40
Technically it's still adjacent. 00:05:46
Right, because the property lines a **** but that particular. 00:05:49
Standard is. 00:05:54
Doesn't doesn't hold water to substantial, it's not as sufficient and substantial evidence. So what are the things that some of 00:05:57
the conditions that you could put on when you have something like that, you could have a distance in your ordinance that says you 00:06:02
should not have. 00:06:07
A 24 hour use kind of business next to residential within. 00:06:14
300 feet. 00:06:20
Really easy to measure 300 feet. 00:06:22
And maybe it says 300 feet from the property line, or maybe it says 300 feet from the entrance. But either way, you have something 00:06:24
that you can objectively determine, right? If you just say it shouldn't be adjacent. 00:06:30
OK. Well and and then you in your zoning map you have, oh I don't know, not a single commercial zone that isn't next to 00:06:37
residential. 00:06:43
So you have to apply it to the context. So when your ordinance says no hotel next to or no hotel or no 24 hour operations next to 00:06:51
a residential. 00:06:57
Unit. You can't just have AG or a residential zone without a house on it. 00:07:05
That doesn't work either. 00:07:11
There's no impact, right? But then you have to have a. But if you do have that and you want to say, you know, it should say should 00:07:13
maybe not shell should be able to mitigate. What are the kind of things and conditions that you could put on it? Well, you could 00:07:19
put a higher fence right around it. So you're screening and you could put landscaping barriers, landscape screening that could 00:07:25
help mitigate. What are you trying to mitigate? You're trying to mitigate privacy concerns. 00:07:31
Umm, we had a situation where. 00:07:38
The hotel building itself was three stories, the proposed hotel was three stories, and the nearest residential home was 1000 feet. 00:07:43
From it, but it was adjacent from the property line, right? So, but then we had a drone footage of the top of the. 00:07:53
Top of the top window of where it could possibly look. 00:08:03
And you couldn't see anything with the camera. And this was like a, this was a very high-powered digital camera on this drone and 00:08:08
it was you couldn't make out. 00:08:13
Anything from that distance that was. 00:08:19
I mean, I guess if you're, but again, those are kind of standards that you're not protecting against, right? You can talk about 00:08:23
lighting, lighting concerns. OK, lighting concerns. OK, well, let's get down facing lighting that has shrouds and that can 00:08:28
eliminate that. And so anyway, when you're dealing with conditional use and you're talking about what kind of conditions you can 00:08:33
put on it, you have to articulate #1 what it is you're trying to. 00:08:39
What impact you're trying to mitigate #2 You have to have an objective standard. If your ordinance requires, has any requirements 00:08:46
in it, they have to be objective. And then if you do put a condition, it has to be reasonably related to to that particular issue, 00:08:52
right? So you can't require a. 00:08:58
So we had one particular condition that was proposed. 00:09:07
And it was well, we can't do it because we don't have our own Police Department. 00:09:12
You can't. You can't put a 24 hour business in because you don't have a Police Department. So does that mean you can't have a gas 00:09:22
station? 00:09:25
Well, you still have police services from the County Sheriff. 00:09:29
And there by statute required to respond to any calls for service. So just because it's not a municipal PD and you have a County 00:09:33
Sheriff, how does that that's not reasonably related to any issue? 00:09:39
So you have to be able to articulate that standard and when you're creating a record especially, I mean if it's if you're trying 00:09:48
to put in a. 00:09:52
I'm trying to think of a. 00:09:59
You've got a nature preserve right here and you put in a gas station right next to it. 00:10:02
And you have articulated zones that say, OK, yeah, commercial. But within the so many feet of the nature preserve, you can't put a 00:10:08
petroleum based, you know, business that you know, has. I mean there's not a gas station in this state that hasn't had a gas leak. 00:10:15
Right from their tanks, they just very rare. 00:10:22
But those kind of things, I mean you can, those are conditions that you can articulate its objective standard like OK, this is not 00:10:28
a good spot for this. 00:10:31
But then you also have plenty other places within the city. 00:10:34
And the general plan where you could put them. 00:10:37
Is that how Salt Lake City got rid of the proposed gas station where the old Sizzler was at? 00:10:41
13th East and 21st South because they wanted to put a big YEAH. 00:10:47
I'd have to look at that specific one. I'm aware of it. I saw the headlines, but I didn't pay attention to exactly how sometimes. 00:10:53
Well, I know it was right, right next to Sugarhouse Park and the neighbors and everything pulled out every possible concern that 00:11:02
well and sometimes. 00:11:07
Sometimes it is possible to just wear down the developer. 00:11:13
I mean, I think that was the right decision to not vote in there. 00:11:20
As I understood it, most of the record was a. 00:11:24
Citizen traffic engineers. 00:11:26
I. 00:11:31
Relied on him in the findings. 00:11:38
So does does everybody and, and John could probably weigh in on this too. Does everybody understand what a traffic study is? 00:11:44
As far as they study the impacts of turning out safety to collision, all those kind of projected volume. So that's part of it. A 00:11:52
lot of it has to do with trip generation, right? And so will this road support this additional traffic? That's the main question 00:11:57
it's answering. 00:12:02
Will the road support? 00:12:09
Wide enough is the road. 00:12:11
Yeah. So like you don't put a Walmart on residential street, right, That's what it is. Is it wide enough to handle the so you look 00:12:13
at the trip generation from this type of use. So if it's. 00:12:18
Like I mean if it's a 10 unit townhome complex. 00:12:26
You're going to get what is it average? Is it 4 trips a day for a residential in a townhome? I think it's something close to that. 00:12:30
I think it's still 6 1/2 is for single family, 6 1/2. Oh, wow. So it may. Yeah, So it may be, Yeah. So 6 1/2 trips a day. And will 00:12:37
the road handle it? It doesn't sit there and say. 00:12:43
It doesn't sit there and say is it going to be more congested during peak traffic hours. I mean that's a given. 00:12:49
Right. So it doesn't look at that. It says will the road support an additional in its current width and depth? Will IT support, 00:12:56
you know, if it's six and a half 10, so 60 additional trips a day for that 10 unit? 00:13:03
And if it's a regular residential street that it's on, or even a collector, chances of it failing under a traffic study are almost 00:13:11
0. 00:13:14
I mean you have to have so many other. 00:13:18
Uses around it in our ordinance or in your ordinance, there's a threshold of. 00:13:20
Most cities have. 00:13:25
If you're getting impacted at least 10% of what the maximum threshold is or drops it before below a certain level of service ABCD. 00:13:26
Then you can start looking at additional conditions on. 00:13:36
Well, you really look at exactions at that point, right? How do you remedy the traffic that you're bringing is going to cost this 00:13:40
much to maintain the service level? And so then you look for contributions from the developer to help mitigate those. So what's 00:13:47
the minimum grade level of service the holiday gives? Is it a C if it gets a C or D engineer would like you would like to maintain 00:13:54
at least a level C service of all your streets. What is the level C service mean that means? 00:14:01
Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. 00:14:09
Yeah. So depending on what traffic engineer is going to be answering that question, it depends on how a number of things you're 00:14:11
waiting at a light, how long it makes to make a left and right hand turn, what's the backing up queuing of of cars that are at 00:14:18
light when waiting? How many car trips a day are based upon the width of the road? 00:14:24
So for example, a residential St. should be around 2500. 00:14:32
Our trips a day Murray Holiday road to Hialeah Holiday Blvd. and Highland Dr. upwards around 28,000. 00:14:36
18 to 28,000 depending on when you look at that data and the IT will give a kick out of rating of what that road should be. 00:14:45
A would be your absolutely no impact. You've got free movement of traffic, no congestion, no congestion at all at any times of the 00:14:54
day. 00:14:57
And D or below is basically a failure type situation where. 00:15:02
It's completely clogged and there's no free movement or safe movement of traffic. 00:15:06
So it's not the road condition, like there's nothing to do with Rd. No, nothing to do with that. Just what's happening on top of 00:15:11
the road, on top of the road. 00:15:15
And if you're interested in seeing models, WFRC has land use traffic models where they're pulling in population data and housing 00:15:21
data and what the lab uses are around a certain area. Rd. widths, all of that and then using models to project what the the road 00:15:27
classification would be. 00:15:34
What with taking Paul's example? 00:15:41
Any consideration what is generally required to become a traffic engineer mean, do you just like cars? So no, it's it's an 00:15:45
engineer. Yeah. And everybody thinks they're a traffic engineer. 00:15:52
I drive on the roads, I know exactly what's going on. 00:16:01
Yeah. So we contract with a certified doctor Perron, Joe Perrin. I don't know if you've met him before. 00:16:05
Anybody. He has consulted on some of our projects and he's very well known in the Valley. 00:16:11
One of the very few actual traffic engineers, except for those that are hired by engineering companies to run traffic. 00:16:16
Yeah, most education, most full service engineering firms will have a traffic engineer on staff that. 00:16:24
Is certified to do those and prepare those reports. 00:16:30
As we look at. 00:16:33
We've got retail, we've got. 00:16:36
There are a lot of traffic issues. 00:16:41
But we look at it piece meal. 00:16:46
So who looks at? 00:16:49
Who looks at that project? 00:16:51
Well, that was a mall before a long time ago and so. 00:16:55
They've already looked at that's been, yeah, I mean, you've got pretty heavy carrying capacity on the roads around it. If you look 00:17:01
at the SDMP, there are. 00:17:05
20% of the STMP is the parking study, the transportation engineering study. So as long as you're not going over the square footage 00:17:10
of retail and the number of units, the number of parking stalls, you should be somewhere around that. So when we look at each one 00:17:17
of these individually, we're just at the tipping the iceberg, tipping the iceberg on this type of development. So once we start 00:17:24
adding up all of the parking stalls that are in there, we use, we'll start looking at quantifying how close they are becoming to. 00:17:32
Meeting that traffic generation standard. 00:17:40
So right now it's not anywhere near Yeah. 00:17:43
Still require. 00:17:52
Yes. Keeping into park, Yes. 00:17:59
Yeah, So what I mentioned if you go back at the. 00:18:04
The traffic data for, say, 2005. 00:18:07
Highland Dr. was at peak ADT. Average daily traffic was like 29,000 car trips a day. 00:18:12
And then you can see where it dropped off or the mall was demolished and know where it is now. It's hovering around 13,000. 00:18:19
We're not even up to where we used to be when that whole parking lot was full of cars during Christmas season, right? 00:18:26
It won't ever get back to that, I don't think. As far as I recall, no. Another thing that even at full build out it doesn't get to 00:18:36
that level. 00:18:40
It will generate less traffic than it used to no matter what. Well, the mixed-use also changed the traffic patterns. 00:18:45
You know, so yeah, they're not all coming during the open business, Yeah. 00:18:52
Exactly. If I could, I just want to circle back to where you started with the conditional use permit side of things and you talked 00:18:59
about some of the language and you know. 00:19:05
Crafting that the Planning Commission. 00:19:11
Near as I can tell from what I've been on, it would never be the ones. 00:19:15
Orchestrating or putting that together right, we would rely on city staff and the applicant to come up with the most sensible. 00:19:20
Conditional use request and we might suggest a modification here or there, but like rarely or is there going to be a situation 00:19:27
where it's like, oh, well, here, let's just do this set of things, right? So the Planning Commission can propose, certainly 00:19:34
propose and add conditions, right? I mean, that's within your authority. They just, you just need to be careful when you do. 00:19:42
And I would hope that we would. 00:19:51
You know, if there's some concerns. 00:19:53
I'd rather deal with those before the meeting than during the meeting. If there's some conditions, I mean we'll usually we'll 00:19:55
identify staff is really good about identifying what the what the issues that come with this particular use on this property is 00:20:01
and here's some suggested conditions that can. 00:20:06
They're defensible. The hard part is when you get conditions that are not defensible. 00:20:12
Right. And they make it. 00:20:17
It's always better to have those discussions. 00:20:23
Not during the meeting Than it is to have them after the meeting and say you can't really have that. 00:20:26
Because I can't. 00:20:31
Defended so. 00:20:32
So Ludmet, though, says you have to approve it if there isn't a condition in place to mitigate. 00:20:34
So. 00:20:39
How often is the Planning Commission creating a condition? 00:20:42
Because that seems counterintuitive to the approval process that if there isn't a condition. 00:20:46
So I I I'm trying to argue but I'm just trying to say it seems confusing to me that. 00:20:52
The way Ludma had originally prescribed conditional uses, if there aren't conditions, you have to approve it. Or you have to 00:21:00
approve it anyway. If they meet the conditions, if they meet you, reasonably so. 00:21:05
Yeah, I'm nervous about creating conditions. Yeah. There's only been one instance where the Planning Commission in Holiday has 00:21:11
denied a conditional use site plan based upon the fact that they couldn't meet the conditions, the conditions that were were 00:21:17
required based upon a very. 00:21:22
Central core operation of what that use was supposed to be and. 00:21:29
Because of proximity of homes and such. 00:21:33
The applicant just simply couldn't do it because it was so critical to what they needed for their use. And so it wasn't. It was 00:21:36
denied. 00:21:39
And I can go into what that was. 00:21:44
So we denied the original ordinance creating those things to answer that before the Planning Commission even discusses Yes, and 00:21:48
staff, holiday staff does a really good job. 00:21:54
Giving you reasonable conditions that are defensible. 00:22:02
And that are related to the issue that you're trying to mitigate, the impact that you're trying to mitigate? 00:22:05
Look at that. City staff does all the work for us. Isn't it the best job, guys? You guys have the statutory kind of ability to 00:22:11
rely on. 00:22:16
I mean, I'm not saying you can't question staff reports, but you have the statutory authority that as a planning commissioner you 00:22:24
have the right to rely on the reports that staff provide you. So your your job isn't to well. I know nobody's going to sue you for 00:22:29
negligence for. 00:22:35
You know a decision that you made because you relied on the report from staff, right? You have the right to rely on staff and 00:22:41
that. 00:22:44
On the reports you get from staff and the experts testimony and the expert information that you get from staff. 00:22:49
That's one of the good things about it, why planning commissioners don't usually get sued personally. 00:22:55
That's not very rich. 00:23:01
I'm remembering back. 00:23:05
Within the last year or two where we had the lady who was selling wanted to sell flowers out of her garden. And so there were 00:23:07
conditions that we came up with in terms that, you know, she could only sell them between these hours and only so many people 00:23:12
could come to. 00:23:18
Time. And is that the type of conditions that you're talking about? Yeah. And the reasons that they are they are that way is 00:23:24
because the use is a kind of a retail kind of use in the middle of a residential area. 00:23:30
So makes sense. 00:23:38
That's good, good discussion. And it took us right to the top of the hour. Look at that, Brad on the spot. Get that man a raise. 00:23:40
All right, well, with that, we'll close. And once there's anything else, we'll close the work meeting and John will cue us when 00:23:47
we're ready to start the actual meeting. And I assume we have the applicant here in attendance. 00:23:54
No, OK. 00:24:02
OK. 00:24:06
Just making sure I was gonna. I'm gonna omit the opening statement. If we don't have any members of the public here, we can do 00:24:07
that, right? OK. Done. So John will let us know when we're ready to rock'n'roll. 00:24:12
With that, good evening and welcome to the City of Holiday Planning Commission meeting November 19th, 2024. We have our City 00:24:18
staff, council and Commissioners in attendance, minus Commissioner Gong and Commissioner. 00:24:25
On the agenda tonight, we have a public hearing for a zone map amendment and then we have an action item of approval of minutes. 00:24:34
And with no members of the public here, we will omit the opening statement and move right into our first agenda item and ask city 00:24:40
staff if they will give us a brief overview of that. 00:24:47
OK. 00:25:01
All right, so first and only item on our agenda, public hearing for the rezone of 2091 E Murray Holiday Road from its existing RM 00:25:03
zone, which is residential multifamily to a professional office zone, which is PO. The building currently and has historically 00:25:12
served as a office building with office uses permitted under the former. 00:25:20
RM Zone The PO Zone was created in 2018. 00:25:30
And some of those uses for office space were expanded to include laboratory services. 00:25:35
Medical dental personal services salon so more I. 00:25:43
Professional services then existed in the room zone previously that rezones were then expected to occur as property owners wish to 00:25:50
utilize some of those expanded uses, so this property owner. 00:25:57
Has a tenant that they would like to bring into compliance with the PO zone. So having one of those uses that is in the PO zone 00:26:06
and not allowed in the room zone so that they can have. 00:26:12
A legal conforming status for that use. 00:26:19
Pretty, pretty basic with the property was identified in 2018. A study was done. There's a map in the packet that shows all the 00:26:24
properties that existed as office space within room zones. They were the purple squares in that that map that was in your packet. 00:26:34
And so all of those were identified and expected to rezone to the to the new PO zone when that was created. 00:26:44
So that is what this application is in dealing with and I'll have the applicant come up with. 00:26:55
Or if you have any questions for me, Do we have any questions for city staff? I'm not even sure if we have questions for the 00:27:03
applicant, but if the applicant would like to come forward and add anything that would be. 00:27:09
Perfectly welcome. 00:27:15
Bob Nesslin and I really don't have anything to add she. 00:27:20
Very thorough. 00:27:24
Great. Any questions for the applicant? All right. Well, thank you very much. Appreciate that. And with that, we will open the 00:27:26
public hearing. Since there is nobody here, I assume we don't have any live streamers that are like, oh wait, I have comments 00:27:33
right in that I don't have a way to bring them in. We have no way. So if you're watching online, sorry, you should have showed up 00:27:39
in person. With that, we'll close the public hearing and we will now move into our Planning Commission discussion. 00:27:46
Commissioner Baron, Yeah, I just got one question. 00:27:54
Is there any difference between the RM and the PO site development standards? 00:27:57
Or the building heights and everything exactly the same. There is a difference in the standards. So when that PO zone was created, 00:28:04
the building height increased to 40 feet and then some of the setbacks were changed. So it's a 10 foot front yard set back. 00:28:11
And a 30 foot rear set back when they're adjacent to a residential zone. So it increased a set back distance next to residential 00:28:19
properties and or residential zones and reduced a set back in the front. So they kind of balanced out. Instead of putting a multi 00:28:26
family development right in the middle of a property, it moved it closer to the street. All of the differences are listed in the 00:28:33
packet. 00:28:39
From that where there's. 00:28:47
It just reviews what those changes were. Height increased from 35 feet in the room zone to 40 feet in the PIO zone. OK. And the 00:28:49
parking doesn't change, right? Yeah. Parking is just our standard off St. standards. 00:28:57
So looking at the current property, it would be existing non conforming to the PO zone just with the current set back then right? 00:29:05
Yes. So the structure itself is fine, it would just be a non conforming. So those standards would apply to new development if the 00:29:11
property owner wish to. 00:29:17
Remove or add on to the building. They would just have to meet new setbacks for the PO zone. 00:29:24
Gotcha. OK. 00:29:29
All right. Thank you very much for that clarification. Any other? 00:29:31
Questions from the Commission, Anyone ready to make a motion on this if we feel like we're covered all the bases? 00:29:35
This is Commissioner Prince, I will make a motion to forward a recommendation to the City Council to approve an application by Bob 00:29:45
Neslin to amend the holiday zoning map for .56 acres of land located at 2091 E Murray Holiday Road from RM to PO based upon the 00:29:52
findings listed in our packet. 00:29:59
We have a motion. Do we have a second? 00:30:09
This Commissioner Baron, I second that. All right, we have it seconded. We'll call for a vote. We'll start down here. Commissioner 00:30:11
Cunningham aye, Commissioner Flaunt aye. Commissioner Prince aye, Commissioner Baron Aye. And Commissioner Chair Roach votes aye. 00:30:17
So that favourable recommendation moves forward unanimously. And thank you very much for showing up for that. And with that, we'll 00:30:23
move to our next item on the agenda, which is the approval of the minutes we had. 00:30:28
Yes, Yep. 00:30:39
Two days. It will be at City Council on Thursday. 00:30:40
Thank you. No worries. So with that, we already discussed the minutes in the work meeting and had a chance to look over that 00:30:43
already. And unless there's any opposition, we'll just call for an all in favor to approve those minutes. 00:30:51
Both sets say aye aye passes. You need to abstain on the second one. I wasn't here. That's OK. You can approve the minutes. 00:31:00
And with that, that takes us to the end of our agenda and we will move to adjourn. I won't. We'll just call for a vote. All in 00:31:11
favour to wanna adjourn. Aye, aye. And we're done. That's it. Woo Hoo. I will note that the clock over there. 00:31:18
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Sugar. 00:00:00
Oh, sure. Happy dinner, all right. 00:00:01
Good evening. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work meeting. It is 536. I believe we have everyone in attendance 00:00:05
except for Commissioners. Vilchinsky and Commissioner Gong are not with us at this time. Everyone else is here, city staff and 00:00:13
council. We have one public hearing item today for a zone amendment and then some minutes to approve. 00:00:21
Carrier, John, which one of us, which one of you will be walking us through this one exciting agenda item we have tonight? 00:00:30
That's me and I just discovered this microphone doesn't move so. 00:00:37
Which is very sad. The other one does. So the sole item on the agenda for a public hearing is a rezone from RM to PO. This is kind 00:00:43
of our standard rezones that we'll see for RM STPO. 00:00:50
The property owner has some additional uses that they'd like to utilize in the PO zone. Since those uses are not allowed in the 00:00:59
room zone, one of their tenants is provides massage services which is falls under personal service which is allowable in the PO 00:01:08
zone and not allowable in the room zone. So the RM zone originally only had office use. 00:01:18
So in order to have that tenant in the building, they need to. 00:01:29
Rezone so that they are compliant with the uses. 00:01:32
Any questions? It's pretty straightforward. 00:01:38
So did you have a question, Commissioner? 00:01:46
Yeah. 00:01:53
Yeah, it can be fun. It's good to be aware of what kind of crowd you get right. And they would like to have a business license, so 00:01:55
and we would also like them to have a business license. 00:02:00
So nothing is being done to this property. There's no changes happening. It's literally just a use allowance and it's basically 00:02:08
just pretty. 00:02:12
Taking something that's existing, non conforming and bringing it up like several others of these we have seen in the last couple 00:02:17
years, right? Yep, just expanding uses to beyond just an office use. So and then in the future the property owner could lease to 00:02:25
there's like dental laboratories, medical laboratories. 00:02:32
Professional services like salons. 00:02:41
There's more uses that are permitted in the PO zone than were originally in the RM zone. 00:02:45
So that was kind of the intention of the PO zone being created was to have more uses than the RM zone originally had, so that then 00:02:52
those property owners would have kind of that extra incentive to rezone. 00:02:58
But there's still residential component to PO, isn't there? Yeah, in the PO zone you can still do a conditional use permit for a 00:03:06
mixed-use development. So it just has to be accessory to the office uses. 00:03:13
So really, they're giving up nothing and just gaining and becoming compliant, which was the city's intent in the 1st place, yeah. 00:03:21
Complicated one, I know. Questions. 00:03:31
All right, and then we have the approval of minutes and in anticipation for our actual meeting. Did anyone have anything? First 00:03:35
off, I'm curious, did anyone go back and watch May's meeting just for grins and giggles? 00:03:42
OK, I didn't either like I just. 00:03:49
Keep up to date. I did not go back and watch it. I read through it. I didn't see anything that looked inaccurate or that needed to 00:03:56
be changed. Did anyone else see anything in May that caused concern? 00:04:01
OK. And then how about October 1st? Anything stand out to anybody on those meeting minutes if they had a chance to look over them? 00:04:07
All right. Well then that just makes that one a whole lot quicker to get through. 00:04:16
So really that means we got 20 minutes and we have council here and he loves to educate us. So I'm going to put you on the spot. 00:04:22
Is there anything that would be beneficial in the next 15 minutes for us to explore as a Commission? 00:04:28
Ethics. 00:04:35
I think it's a good idea always and I this is not related to holiday, so let me make that clear, nor to this Planning Commission, 00:04:38
but this has come up recently. I. 00:04:44
Conditional use permits. 00:04:52
Umm. 00:04:57
I want you to check the definition of conditional. 00:04:57
Forevermore when it comes to a conditional use permit. 00:05:01
They are permitted uses that allow you to put conditions on that are reasonably related, and they have to be related to the. 00:05:05
Perceived problem that they create right and you have to have and it's under a substantial evidence standard that you have to have 00:05:16
an objective standard. So for example, if you have an ordinance that says. 00:05:22
A hotel should not be next to, adjacent to. 00:05:30
Residential. 00:05:35
But then you have 1000 feet. 00:05:38
Between where the hotel will be and where the 1st house is. 00:05:40
Technically it's still adjacent. 00:05:46
Right, because the property lines a **** but that particular. 00:05:49
Standard is. 00:05:54
Doesn't doesn't hold water to substantial, it's not as sufficient and substantial evidence. So what are the things that some of 00:05:57
the conditions that you could put on when you have something like that, you could have a distance in your ordinance that says you 00:06:02
should not have. 00:06:07
A 24 hour use kind of business next to residential within. 00:06:14
300 feet. 00:06:20
Really easy to measure 300 feet. 00:06:22
And maybe it says 300 feet from the property line, or maybe it says 300 feet from the entrance. But either way, you have something 00:06:24
that you can objectively determine, right? If you just say it shouldn't be adjacent. 00:06:30
OK. Well and and then you in your zoning map you have, oh I don't know, not a single commercial zone that isn't next to 00:06:37
residential. 00:06:43
So you have to apply it to the context. So when your ordinance says no hotel next to or no hotel or no 24 hour operations next to 00:06:51
a residential. 00:06:57
Unit. You can't just have AG or a residential zone without a house on it. 00:07:05
That doesn't work either. 00:07:11
There's no impact, right? But then you have to have a. But if you do have that and you want to say, you know, it should say should 00:07:13
maybe not shell should be able to mitigate. What are the kind of things and conditions that you could put on it? Well, you could 00:07:19
put a higher fence right around it. So you're screening and you could put landscaping barriers, landscape screening that could 00:07:25
help mitigate. What are you trying to mitigate? You're trying to mitigate privacy concerns. 00:07:31
Umm, we had a situation where. 00:07:38
The hotel building itself was three stories, the proposed hotel was three stories, and the nearest residential home was 1000 feet. 00:07:43
From it, but it was adjacent from the property line, right? So, but then we had a drone footage of the top of the. 00:07:53
Top of the top window of where it could possibly look. 00:08:03
And you couldn't see anything with the camera. And this was like a, this was a very high-powered digital camera on this drone and 00:08:08
it was you couldn't make out. 00:08:13
Anything from that distance that was. 00:08:19
I mean, I guess if you're, but again, those are kind of standards that you're not protecting against, right? You can talk about 00:08:23
lighting, lighting concerns. OK, lighting concerns. OK, well, let's get down facing lighting that has shrouds and that can 00:08:28
eliminate that. And so anyway, when you're dealing with conditional use and you're talking about what kind of conditions you can 00:08:33
put on it, you have to articulate #1 what it is you're trying to. 00:08:39
What impact you're trying to mitigate #2 You have to have an objective standard. If your ordinance requires, has any requirements 00:08:46
in it, they have to be objective. And then if you do put a condition, it has to be reasonably related to to that particular issue, 00:08:52
right? So you can't require a. 00:08:58
So we had one particular condition that was proposed. 00:09:07
And it was well, we can't do it because we don't have our own Police Department. 00:09:12
You can't. You can't put a 24 hour business in because you don't have a Police Department. So does that mean you can't have a gas 00:09:22
station? 00:09:25
Well, you still have police services from the County Sheriff. 00:09:29
And there by statute required to respond to any calls for service. So just because it's not a municipal PD and you have a County 00:09:33
Sheriff, how does that that's not reasonably related to any issue? 00:09:39
So you have to be able to articulate that standard and when you're creating a record especially, I mean if it's if you're trying 00:09:48
to put in a. 00:09:52
I'm trying to think of a. 00:09:59
You've got a nature preserve right here and you put in a gas station right next to it. 00:10:02
And you have articulated zones that say, OK, yeah, commercial. But within the so many feet of the nature preserve, you can't put a 00:10:08
petroleum based, you know, business that you know, has. I mean there's not a gas station in this state that hasn't had a gas leak. 00:10:15
Right from their tanks, they just very rare. 00:10:22
But those kind of things, I mean you can, those are conditions that you can articulate its objective standard like OK, this is not 00:10:28
a good spot for this. 00:10:31
But then you also have plenty other places within the city. 00:10:34
And the general plan where you could put them. 00:10:37
Is that how Salt Lake City got rid of the proposed gas station where the old Sizzler was at? 00:10:41
13th East and 21st South because they wanted to put a big YEAH. 00:10:47
I'd have to look at that specific one. I'm aware of it. I saw the headlines, but I didn't pay attention to exactly how sometimes. 00:10:53
Well, I know it was right, right next to Sugarhouse Park and the neighbors and everything pulled out every possible concern that 00:11:02
well and sometimes. 00:11:07
Sometimes it is possible to just wear down the developer. 00:11:13
I mean, I think that was the right decision to not vote in there. 00:11:20
As I understood it, most of the record was a. 00:11:24
Citizen traffic engineers. 00:11:26
I. 00:11:31
Relied on him in the findings. 00:11:38
So does does everybody and, and John could probably weigh in on this too. Does everybody understand what a traffic study is? 00:11:44
As far as they study the impacts of turning out safety to collision, all those kind of projected volume. So that's part of it. A 00:11:52
lot of it has to do with trip generation, right? And so will this road support this additional traffic? That's the main question 00:11:57
it's answering. 00:12:02
Will the road support? 00:12:09
Wide enough is the road. 00:12:11
Yeah. So like you don't put a Walmart on residential street, right, That's what it is. Is it wide enough to handle the so you look 00:12:13
at the trip generation from this type of use. So if it's. 00:12:18
Like I mean if it's a 10 unit townhome complex. 00:12:26
You're going to get what is it average? Is it 4 trips a day for a residential in a townhome? I think it's something close to that. 00:12:30
I think it's still 6 1/2 is for single family, 6 1/2. Oh, wow. So it may. Yeah, So it may be, Yeah. So 6 1/2 trips a day. And will 00:12:37
the road handle it? It doesn't sit there and say. 00:12:43
It doesn't sit there and say is it going to be more congested during peak traffic hours. I mean that's a given. 00:12:49
Right. So it doesn't look at that. It says will the road support an additional in its current width and depth? Will IT support, 00:12:56
you know, if it's six and a half 10, so 60 additional trips a day for that 10 unit? 00:13:03
And if it's a regular residential street that it's on, or even a collector, chances of it failing under a traffic study are almost 00:13:11
0. 00:13:14
I mean you have to have so many other. 00:13:18
Uses around it in our ordinance or in your ordinance, there's a threshold of. 00:13:20
Most cities have. 00:13:25
If you're getting impacted at least 10% of what the maximum threshold is or drops it before below a certain level of service ABCD. 00:13:26
Then you can start looking at additional conditions on. 00:13:36
Well, you really look at exactions at that point, right? How do you remedy the traffic that you're bringing is going to cost this 00:13:40
much to maintain the service level? And so then you look for contributions from the developer to help mitigate those. So what's 00:13:47
the minimum grade level of service the holiday gives? Is it a C if it gets a C or D engineer would like you would like to maintain 00:13:54
at least a level C service of all your streets. What is the level C service mean that means? 00:14:01
Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. 00:14:09
Yeah. So depending on what traffic engineer is going to be answering that question, it depends on how a number of things you're 00:14:11
waiting at a light, how long it makes to make a left and right hand turn, what's the backing up queuing of of cars that are at 00:14:18
light when waiting? How many car trips a day are based upon the width of the road? 00:14:24
So for example, a residential St. should be around 2500. 00:14:32
Our trips a day Murray Holiday road to Hialeah Holiday Blvd. and Highland Dr. upwards around 28,000. 00:14:36
18 to 28,000 depending on when you look at that data and the IT will give a kick out of rating of what that road should be. 00:14:45
A would be your absolutely no impact. You've got free movement of traffic, no congestion, no congestion at all at any times of the 00:14:54
day. 00:14:57
And D or below is basically a failure type situation where. 00:15:02
It's completely clogged and there's no free movement or safe movement of traffic. 00:15:06
So it's not the road condition, like there's nothing to do with Rd. No, nothing to do with that. Just what's happening on top of 00:15:11
the road, on top of the road. 00:15:15
And if you're interested in seeing models, WFRC has land use traffic models where they're pulling in population data and housing 00:15:21
data and what the lab uses are around a certain area. Rd. widths, all of that and then using models to project what the the road 00:15:27
classification would be. 00:15:34
What with taking Paul's example? 00:15:41
Any consideration what is generally required to become a traffic engineer mean, do you just like cars? So no, it's it's an 00:15:45
engineer. Yeah. And everybody thinks they're a traffic engineer. 00:15:52
I drive on the roads, I know exactly what's going on. 00:16:01
Yeah. So we contract with a certified doctor Perron, Joe Perrin. I don't know if you've met him before. 00:16:05
Anybody. He has consulted on some of our projects and he's very well known in the Valley. 00:16:11
One of the very few actual traffic engineers, except for those that are hired by engineering companies to run traffic. 00:16:16
Yeah, most education, most full service engineering firms will have a traffic engineer on staff that. 00:16:24
Is certified to do those and prepare those reports. 00:16:30
As we look at. 00:16:33
We've got retail, we've got. 00:16:36
There are a lot of traffic issues. 00:16:41
But we look at it piece meal. 00:16:46
So who looks at? 00:16:49
Who looks at that project? 00:16:51
Well, that was a mall before a long time ago and so. 00:16:55
They've already looked at that's been, yeah, I mean, you've got pretty heavy carrying capacity on the roads around it. If you look 00:17:01
at the SDMP, there are. 00:17:05
20% of the STMP is the parking study, the transportation engineering study. So as long as you're not going over the square footage 00:17:10
of retail and the number of units, the number of parking stalls, you should be somewhere around that. So when we look at each one 00:17:17
of these individually, we're just at the tipping the iceberg, tipping the iceberg on this type of development. So once we start 00:17:24
adding up all of the parking stalls that are in there, we use, we'll start looking at quantifying how close they are becoming to. 00:17:32
Meeting that traffic generation standard. 00:17:40
So right now it's not anywhere near Yeah. 00:17:43
Still require. 00:17:52
Yes. Keeping into park, Yes. 00:17:59
Yeah, So what I mentioned if you go back at the. 00:18:04
The traffic data for, say, 2005. 00:18:07
Highland Dr. was at peak ADT. Average daily traffic was like 29,000 car trips a day. 00:18:12
And then you can see where it dropped off or the mall was demolished and know where it is now. It's hovering around 13,000. 00:18:19
We're not even up to where we used to be when that whole parking lot was full of cars during Christmas season, right? 00:18:26
It won't ever get back to that, I don't think. As far as I recall, no. Another thing that even at full build out it doesn't get to 00:18:36
that level. 00:18:40
It will generate less traffic than it used to no matter what. Well, the mixed-use also changed the traffic patterns. 00:18:45
You know, so yeah, they're not all coming during the open business, Yeah. 00:18:52
Exactly. If I could, I just want to circle back to where you started with the conditional use permit side of things and you talked 00:18:59
about some of the language and you know. 00:19:05
Crafting that the Planning Commission. 00:19:11
Near as I can tell from what I've been on, it would never be the ones. 00:19:15
Orchestrating or putting that together right, we would rely on city staff and the applicant to come up with the most sensible. 00:19:20
Conditional use request and we might suggest a modification here or there, but like rarely or is there going to be a situation 00:19:27
where it's like, oh, well, here, let's just do this set of things, right? So the Planning Commission can propose, certainly 00:19:34
propose and add conditions, right? I mean, that's within your authority. They just, you just need to be careful when you do. 00:19:42
And I would hope that we would. 00:19:51
You know, if there's some concerns. 00:19:53
I'd rather deal with those before the meeting than during the meeting. If there's some conditions, I mean we'll usually we'll 00:19:55
identify staff is really good about identifying what the what the issues that come with this particular use on this property is 00:20:01
and here's some suggested conditions that can. 00:20:06
They're defensible. The hard part is when you get conditions that are not defensible. 00:20:12
Right. And they make it. 00:20:17
It's always better to have those discussions. 00:20:23
Not during the meeting Than it is to have them after the meeting and say you can't really have that. 00:20:26
Because I can't. 00:20:31
Defended so. 00:20:32
So Ludmet, though, says you have to approve it if there isn't a condition in place to mitigate. 00:20:34
So. 00:20:39
How often is the Planning Commission creating a condition? 00:20:42
Because that seems counterintuitive to the approval process that if there isn't a condition. 00:20:46
So I I I'm trying to argue but I'm just trying to say it seems confusing to me that. 00:20:52
The way Ludma had originally prescribed conditional uses, if there aren't conditions, you have to approve it. Or you have to 00:21:00
approve it anyway. If they meet the conditions, if they meet you, reasonably so. 00:21:05
Yeah, I'm nervous about creating conditions. Yeah. There's only been one instance where the Planning Commission in Holiday has 00:21:11
denied a conditional use site plan based upon the fact that they couldn't meet the conditions, the conditions that were were 00:21:17
required based upon a very. 00:21:22
Central core operation of what that use was supposed to be and. 00:21:29
Because of proximity of homes and such. 00:21:33
The applicant just simply couldn't do it because it was so critical to what they needed for their use. And so it wasn't. It was 00:21:36
denied. 00:21:39
And I can go into what that was. 00:21:44
So we denied the original ordinance creating those things to answer that before the Planning Commission even discusses Yes, and 00:21:48
staff, holiday staff does a really good job. 00:21:54
Giving you reasonable conditions that are defensible. 00:22:02
And that are related to the issue that you're trying to mitigate, the impact that you're trying to mitigate? 00:22:05
Look at that. City staff does all the work for us. Isn't it the best job, guys? You guys have the statutory kind of ability to 00:22:11
rely on. 00:22:16
I mean, I'm not saying you can't question staff reports, but you have the statutory authority that as a planning commissioner you 00:22:24
have the right to rely on the reports that staff provide you. So your your job isn't to well. I know nobody's going to sue you for 00:22:29
negligence for. 00:22:35
You know a decision that you made because you relied on the report from staff, right? You have the right to rely on staff and 00:22:41
that. 00:22:44
On the reports you get from staff and the experts testimony and the expert information that you get from staff. 00:22:49
That's one of the good things about it, why planning commissioners don't usually get sued personally. 00:22:55
That's not very rich. 00:23:01
I'm remembering back. 00:23:05
Within the last year or two where we had the lady who was selling wanted to sell flowers out of her garden. And so there were 00:23:07
conditions that we came up with in terms that, you know, she could only sell them between these hours and only so many people 00:23:12
could come to. 00:23:18
Time. And is that the type of conditions that you're talking about? Yeah. And the reasons that they are they are that way is 00:23:24
because the use is a kind of a retail kind of use in the middle of a residential area. 00:23:30
So makes sense. 00:23:38
That's good, good discussion. And it took us right to the top of the hour. Look at that, Brad on the spot. Get that man a raise. 00:23:40
All right, well, with that, we'll close. And once there's anything else, we'll close the work meeting and John will cue us when 00:23:47
we're ready to start the actual meeting. And I assume we have the applicant here in attendance. 00:23:54
No, OK. 00:24:02
OK. 00:24:06
Just making sure I was gonna. I'm gonna omit the opening statement. If we don't have any members of the public here, we can do 00:24:07
that, right? OK. Done. So John will let us know when we're ready to rock'n'roll. 00:24:12
With that, good evening and welcome to the City of Holiday Planning Commission meeting November 19th, 2024. We have our City 00:24:18
staff, council and Commissioners in attendance, minus Commissioner Gong and Commissioner. 00:24:25
On the agenda tonight, we have a public hearing for a zone map amendment and then we have an action item of approval of minutes. 00:24:34
And with no members of the public here, we will omit the opening statement and move right into our first agenda item and ask city 00:24:40
staff if they will give us a brief overview of that. 00:24:47
OK. 00:25:01
All right, so first and only item on our agenda, public hearing for the rezone of 2091 E Murray Holiday Road from its existing RM 00:25:03
zone, which is residential multifamily to a professional office zone, which is PO. The building currently and has historically 00:25:12
served as a office building with office uses permitted under the former. 00:25:20
RM Zone The PO Zone was created in 2018. 00:25:30
And some of those uses for office space were expanded to include laboratory services. 00:25:35
Medical dental personal services salon so more I. 00:25:43
Professional services then existed in the room zone previously that rezones were then expected to occur as property owners wish to 00:25:50
utilize some of those expanded uses, so this property owner. 00:25:57
Has a tenant that they would like to bring into compliance with the PO zone. So having one of those uses that is in the PO zone 00:26:06
and not allowed in the room zone so that they can have. 00:26:12
A legal conforming status for that use. 00:26:19
Pretty, pretty basic with the property was identified in 2018. A study was done. There's a map in the packet that shows all the 00:26:24
properties that existed as office space within room zones. They were the purple squares in that that map that was in your packet. 00:26:34
And so all of those were identified and expected to rezone to the to the new PO zone when that was created. 00:26:44
So that is what this application is in dealing with and I'll have the applicant come up with. 00:26:55
Or if you have any questions for me, Do we have any questions for city staff? I'm not even sure if we have questions for the 00:27:03
applicant, but if the applicant would like to come forward and add anything that would be. 00:27:09
Perfectly welcome. 00:27:15
Bob Nesslin and I really don't have anything to add she. 00:27:20
Very thorough. 00:27:24
Great. Any questions for the applicant? All right. Well, thank you very much. Appreciate that. And with that, we will open the 00:27:26
public hearing. Since there is nobody here, I assume we don't have any live streamers that are like, oh wait, I have comments 00:27:33
right in that I don't have a way to bring them in. We have no way. So if you're watching online, sorry, you should have showed up 00:27:39
in person. With that, we'll close the public hearing and we will now move into our Planning Commission discussion. 00:27:46
Commissioner Baron, Yeah, I just got one question. 00:27:54
Is there any difference between the RM and the PO site development standards? 00:27:57
Or the building heights and everything exactly the same. There is a difference in the standards. So when that PO zone was created, 00:28:04
the building height increased to 40 feet and then some of the setbacks were changed. So it's a 10 foot front yard set back. 00:28:11
And a 30 foot rear set back when they're adjacent to a residential zone. So it increased a set back distance next to residential 00:28:19
properties and or residential zones and reduced a set back in the front. So they kind of balanced out. Instead of putting a multi 00:28:26
family development right in the middle of a property, it moved it closer to the street. All of the differences are listed in the 00:28:33
packet. 00:28:39
From that where there's. 00:28:47
It just reviews what those changes were. Height increased from 35 feet in the room zone to 40 feet in the PIO zone. OK. And the 00:28:49
parking doesn't change, right? Yeah. Parking is just our standard off St. standards. 00:28:57
So looking at the current property, it would be existing non conforming to the PO zone just with the current set back then right? 00:29:05
Yes. So the structure itself is fine, it would just be a non conforming. So those standards would apply to new development if the 00:29:11
property owner wish to. 00:29:17
Remove or add on to the building. They would just have to meet new setbacks for the PO zone. 00:29:24
Gotcha. OK. 00:29:29
All right. Thank you very much for that clarification. Any other? 00:29:31
Questions from the Commission, Anyone ready to make a motion on this if we feel like we're covered all the bases? 00:29:35
This is Commissioner Prince, I will make a motion to forward a recommendation to the City Council to approve an application by Bob 00:29:45
Neslin to amend the holiday zoning map for .56 acres of land located at 2091 E Murray Holiday Road from RM to PO based upon the 00:29:52
findings listed in our packet. 00:29:59
We have a motion. Do we have a second? 00:30:09
This Commissioner Baron, I second that. All right, we have it seconded. We'll call for a vote. We'll start down here. Commissioner 00:30:11
Cunningham aye, Commissioner Flaunt aye. Commissioner Prince aye, Commissioner Baron Aye. And Commissioner Chair Roach votes aye. 00:30:17
So that favourable recommendation moves forward unanimously. And thank you very much for showing up for that. And with that, we'll 00:30:23
move to our next item on the agenda, which is the approval of the minutes we had. 00:30:28
Yes, Yep. 00:30:39
Two days. It will be at City Council on Thursday. 00:30:40
Thank you. No worries. So with that, we already discussed the minutes in the work meeting and had a chance to look over that 00:30:43
already. And unless there's any opposition, we'll just call for an all in favor to approve those minutes. 00:30:51
Both sets say aye aye passes. You need to abstain on the second one. I wasn't here. That's OK. You can approve the minutes. 00:31:00
And with that, that takes us to the end of our agenda and we will move to adjourn. I won't. We'll just call for a vote. All in 00:31:11
favour to wanna adjourn. Aye, aye. And we're done. That's it. Woo Hoo. I will note that the clock over there. 00:31:18
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