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All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work session. 00:00:00
In attendance tonight we have three city. 00:00:05
Staff and council with us and then we are. 00:00:10
Regrets for Commissioner Baron and we have not heard from Commissioner Villchinski, but we have enough to have a quorum present. 00:00:13
And we have two items on the agenda. 1 is a public hearing that we are going to be leaving open. 00:00:20
Umm for the text amendment on lighting and then we have the East Wind subdivision amendment. 00:00:27
So who wants to walk us through this awesome text amendment? 00:00:33
From city staff. 00:00:39
I'll be happy to do that. 00:00:41
Awesome. 00:00:42
So in October of last year. 00:00:44
Councilmember Gray has been approached by a couple of citizens in her area concerned about residential lighting. 00:00:47
Over the years. 00:00:54
Our code enforcement officer has been. 00:00:55
Addressing code or. 00:00:58
Compliance or issues with between neighbors and their neighborhood. Backyard lighting, sort of in a civil manner. 00:01:00
Really don't have any rules that regulate. 00:01:07
How lights are to be? 00:01:10
Directed. Used. 00:01:13
In residential for residential properties. 00:01:16
The Planning Commission has authority to review site plans for on a commercial level. 00:01:18
Lighting compliance for dark sky standards. 00:01:25
The last site plan the Planning Commission reviewed at that level was would be in the hotel. 00:01:29
On Highland Drive in about 6400 S. 00:01:34
But for single family homes when they are built. 00:01:37
Staff does not review lighting plans. 00:01:41
So the Council over the. 00:01:44
Past few months got together with staff to direct them to. 00:01:47
Come up with a framework that addresses. 00:01:52
Lighting in residential neighborhoods. 00:01:55
Over several meetings, what you see as a draft in front of you now. 00:01:57
Is where they're comfortable. 00:02:02
Creating a standard for regulating lighting on residential property. 00:02:05
And later on we can go through it. 00:02:11
There's a lot here, so I don't expect us to fully, completely understand it immediately. So that's why we're recommending we 00:02:14
continue this discussion. 00:02:18
And leaving the hearing open. 00:02:23
Just in case there's some amendments to the text that. 00:02:25
You would need public input on. 00:02:28
So generally that's what we're, that's where we're at right now. 00:02:31
And have you received any comments from? 00:02:35
The public on this? 00:02:39
No, I was expecting to have some written comments by the. 00:02:41
Yesterday. 00:02:45
That none that I have received. 00:02:46
I don't think our staff has received any. 00:02:48
But I would fully expect. 00:02:51
A couple of the residents here to make comment. 00:02:53
At some point. 00:02:57
I mean because like, we all got lights, right? 00:02:58
You know, we've had one resident. 00:03:01
Here. 00:03:11
For the Commission or. 00:03:17
And I had a chance in the work session to just bring up the PowerPoint that was included in that. 00:03:22
And I got like immediately the Spidey sense tingled and I like got really upset when it said something on one of the slides about 00:03:28
Christmas lights. And I was like, don't take away my holiday lighting. Now. That's, that's my, that's my pride in Christmas time, 00:03:33
you know? 00:03:38
And talking with John, that's not. 00:03:42
Included in the text amendment right. There's nothing about holiday lighting and specific. 00:03:46
Timeframes on when you can have those lights. 00:03:51
Yeah. We use that planning that PowerPoint as sort of a. 00:03:53
30,000 foot level for the Council to review What cities do regulate? 00:03:57
And what you're comfortable with, what they're comfortable with. 00:04:02
Directing staff. 00:04:05
And spending enforcement time on. 00:04:06
And so from that PowerPoint, it whittled down to what you see now is the draft text. 00:04:09
OK. So yeah, there's a lot of elements in that PowerPoint presentation that are not. 00:04:14
Included in. 00:04:19
And you know me, I'm going to go for the pictures and the easy way out without just diving too deep into the text, so. 00:04:22
Thank you for indulging me on explaining that part of it. 00:04:28
But did we have questions on this one? I have a question. Is part of the reason? 00:04:32
You're recommending that we continue this? 00:04:37
So that we allow more time for comment. 00:04:40
No more time to understand the code itself. 00:04:43
OK. 00:04:47
And what the details are and what they actually mean for. 00:04:48
Both enforcement. 00:04:52
And, umm. 00:04:53
The levels of. 00:04:55
Color, intensity, location. 00:04:57
Place and time those types of elements, so. 00:05:00
And that brings me to my second question. 00:05:03
And that's about enforcement. 00:05:06
It just seems to me that's a real can of worms. 00:05:08
It is. 00:05:12
That's why what the reason why we've written it in a way that it's objective, so that there actually are measurements that we can 00:05:14
use rather than subjective. 00:05:18
I don't like those lights. 00:05:23
They have to meet a standard of. 00:05:25
Blair or have an issue of problem that our code enforcement officer can actually. 00:05:27
Measure scientifically. 00:05:31
And we have one. Do we have a code enforcement officer? 00:05:34
Did we replace? 00:05:39
I forgot his name. 00:05:41
Warren Yes. 00:05:42
Yeah, we replaced Warren. His name's Chad Peterson. 00:05:44
We brought Chad in from Midvale. 00:05:48
So it's still within the updates. 00:05:51
Department but. 00:05:53
It's fully aware of the code. 00:05:54
Or even our chief made some comments on it as far as how he believes. 00:05:56
They can enforce on it. 00:06:00
They have some concerns, but they understand. 00:06:01
He understands particularly. 00:06:04
Lighting and generally. 00:06:06
So he's comfortable with. 00:06:08
We're at right now. 00:06:10
Of course it's going to. It's definitely going to add a different layer of enforcement. 00:06:12
Sure, I remember the. 00:06:16
Intent from an enforcement standpoint is either going to be reactive or proactive in the development stage. It's not necessarily. 00:06:20
Driving around to harass people about lighting, right? No. Then that's never been. 00:06:28
Right. 00:06:33
OK, this will create a bunch of non conforming uses however. 00:06:35
Yes, and and so. 00:06:39
Is the Council's vision that? 00:06:42
Someday they'll. 00:06:44
Stop the grandfathering. 00:06:46
Not in the code. There's a section on nonconforming uses, so unless they're upgrading their property in the terms of. 00:06:49
A new construction. 00:06:56
That's when the upgrade has to take place. 00:06:57
So upgrading the lights wouldn't be sufficient to make it a. 00:07:01
No. So they could actually in retaliation. 00:07:05
For a complaint. 00:07:08
Increase the intensity of the lighting they currently have. 00:07:10
We can get into that section. I'll show you how that works. 00:07:14
Yeah, OK. 00:07:17
It's going to be a fun discussion, I think. 00:07:21
So all right. 00:07:25
Well. 00:07:27
Depending on how the work meeting goes, we have one other item we can talk through and then maybe circle back and just kind of 00:07:28
start some of the questions without any decision making or any of that kind of stuff, right, so. 00:07:33
If we want to roll into the East Wind subdivision, who wants to walk us through that one? 00:07:38
Justice fantastic. 00:07:46
I'm not sure if your mics on but I can hear you. 00:07:48
Yeah, just to reintroduce myself. Justice too, for one of the city planners. 00:07:51
In the planning division. 00:07:56
So with the East Wind subdivision, what? 00:07:57
What the applicant is actually seeking to do. 00:08:00
Is to expand the size of his property. 00:08:02
And the East Wind subdivision originally started out as a three lot. 00:08:05
Subdivision. 00:08:09
The applicants lot was originally Lot 1. 00:08:11
And after the 2003 subdivision plot was. 00:08:14
Amended in 2024. 00:08:19
Into a 2 lot subdivision. 00:08:21
The two lot subdivision happened when. 00:08:24
The owner of lot 1 and the owner of lot 3. 00:08:27
They bought 2. 00:08:30
And then split. 00:08:31
In U2, so it moved from a three lot subdivision into. 00:08:33
Subdivision and now the owner of. 00:08:37
1A has bought the neighboring property. 00:08:40
That front on Wanderlane. 00:08:44
And it's proposing to add that to. 00:08:46
Is locked. 00:08:49
So that's basically what that subdivision amendment is about. 00:08:50
What will that allow him to do that they can't do now? 00:08:57
Well right now as as it stands the the property is conforming to the minimum lot size requirement frontage requirement. 00:09:03
So that there weren't any. 00:09:11
Really, I would say restrictions it was. 00:09:16
Was somehow narrow. 00:09:20
Looking at the original subdivision plat. 00:09:22
Was very narrow, but right now. 00:09:25
Adding that lot, the neighboring lot to the West to it would expand their capacity to. 00:09:28
Do any future improvements like additions? 00:09:34
To the existing house. 00:09:37
On the lot. 00:09:38
I mean, so he could put a little chunk of house off the back of his house if he wanted to make it bigger, and then have a really 00:09:42
big backyard or side yard, I guess, depending on how you want to look at it, yeah. 00:09:49
It's just odd in the shape. 00:09:56
With the house in the corner, but. 00:09:58
I mean, there's no reason that they can't do it that I can think of. 00:10:00
But it almost makes me think there's a bigger planet. 00:10:04
At some point. 00:10:09
Pick up some more lots. 00:10:10
You can subdivide and take advantage of the excess acre or excess square feet. 00:10:12
To build additional new houses, which is maybe a good thing. 00:10:17
They actually have a permit for an addition. 00:10:21
Onto that new. 00:10:26
A property that they plot so. 00:10:27
Amending the subdivision plot would actually allow them to. 00:10:30
Do that in principle. 00:10:34
And I can't remember, is this an R110 zone? 00:10:40
180 it's an R18. 00:10:42
So these guys are up or I guess upgrading down grading, however you want to look at it to like an R15 with the way they keep 00:10:45
buying lots and expanding, right? 00:10:49
So. 00:10:53
I mean. 00:10:56
As long as they put in lots of trees, I'm for it. 00:10:58
Maybe they need. Maybe they want to take out SO. 00:11:02
As they put back good ones, I don't know. 00:11:06
All right. Any other questions on the East Wind subdivide? 00:11:08
For staff. 00:11:12
OK, so we've got 15 minutes left of work meeting unless anyone's itching to have a question. Well, I just do have one thought. 00:11:14
I actually need to leave at 5:00 to 7:00. Is there a possibility that we could flip the item since? 00:11:22
The one is going to stay open. 00:11:29
You know, the lighting and stuff. 00:11:33
I don't know if that's possible that's possible. 00:11:35
OK. That would be great. You can just have a motion to amend the agenda accordingly. 00:11:37
OK. All right. Because otherwise I will just sort of. 00:11:41
Scoochie. 00:11:44
You don't think we can get these done? 00:11:46
I mean, we could. 00:11:47
And I, I already talked with the city staff about maybe putting a 30 minute cap on tonight's discussion around the lighting. Oh, 00:11:48
Hallelujah. I mean, since we are continuing it, I think it's a fine choice. How many hours you've had to spend on this? I would 00:11:56
just like to say I feel kind of bad for this house on the corner that's going to be surrounded by this little compound. 00:12:03
Well, it's not little, you know. Maybe they'll buy it next. 00:12:11
Right. So and also we've lost an entire home. 00:12:14
Yeah, where housing stocks so. 00:12:18
Interesting. 00:12:23
That was that was all I had. Thanks. 00:12:24
What do you figure? 00:12:26
We've lost an entire home. 00:12:27
They've demolished that house. 00:12:29
They have. It's their yard. 00:12:31
Yeah. 00:12:36
But we have some great amenities in the neighborhood now. 00:12:38
And as long as you get to know the owner, then hey. 00:12:42
Community Yeah, I actually have a question about that. I noticed all those letters from the utility companies about vacating the 00:12:45
easement. 00:12:49
They're like removing all of the power and things or not necessarily. Well, go ahead, Justice. I was just curious what that meant 00:12:54
to vacate an easement. I don't know. 00:12:59
So when subdivision amendments occur and then there's easements in place via the plat. 00:13:07
They can be vacated, but they have to have approvals from each individual utility provider, proving that there aren't any 00:13:13
facilities in. 00:13:16
So to vacate an easement, you had to make sure that there are no facilities there to begin with. 00:13:22
Yeah, the easement was just set aside as a placeholder for utilities to in place just in case there's the there's there. 00:13:26
Item OK, cool, they wouldn't hold it. 00:13:34
For. 00:13:38
Just in case. 00:13:39
I think they want to build in that area. 00:13:41
I think their addition to their house, they want to build across that easement area, so. 00:13:44
Yeah, yeah, they would have to read it. 00:13:50
Different easements in different. 00:13:54
This keeps the. 00:14:01
But their intent for the future of that property is not our concern this evening. 00:14:05
Not necessarily. The only intent of the purpose of this amendment is. 00:14:12
They can't build across the property line. 00:14:18
And or you can't have an accessory use on a. 00:14:21
Parcel without a primary use first, so they demolished the primary use. 00:14:26
They want to have accessory uses there. 00:14:30
So it has to be joined with the primary property. 00:14:33
Itself. 00:14:36
So one, they can't build across this property line that's currently there, that's not really highlighted, but it's right in 00:14:37
between these two, OK. 00:14:41
And want to have an addition that either goes really close or crossing that property line. 00:14:44
Oh, so is the permit they have now, is that what it's intending to do is cross that? 00:14:51
Yeah, we can't get. 00:14:56
Approved until this amendment takes place. 00:15:00
So they couldn't build. 00:15:02
They couldn't decide to build. 00:15:04
Adus on. 00:15:06
The on the new property. 00:15:08
Associated with the existing property. 00:15:13
Without combining the properties. 00:15:17
Yes, but isn't that the whole point to the discussion this evening? They want to combine the property. They want to combine the 00:15:21
properties. 00:15:24
Yeah, so if they didn't want to have. 00:15:27
An addition that would violate a set back for that next to that property line. 00:15:32
And they wanted to keep. 00:15:36
Primary home on the lot. The way it is now, they would have to do anything. 00:15:37
If they wanted to put an Adu or a pool house or a shed, something that's accessory. 00:15:41
You have to have. You have to establish the primary use first on a lot before an accessory use gets to be in place. 00:15:47
So therefore you have to combine everything together to establish the primary house with accessory uses. 00:15:53
It's a very expensive, roundabout way of doing it. 00:16:01
So as is with it being 2 separate lots, each of those lots could have a primary structure and an accessory structure completely 00:16:04
detached. 00:16:08
With what they're doing, they're combining it into one and so they're eliminating two single family structures. So they'll just 00:16:12
have one single family structure and then the permitted accessory structure that could go with that. 00:16:18
That house that's on the front side is not there anymore, so there's not. 00:16:25
Primary. 00:16:31
Use so it will all be one lot. 00:16:32
One house, 1 accessory structure. 00:16:34
Or one accessory dwelling unit if they were going to do that. But we don't have any permits for an accessory dwelling unit. OK, 00:16:38
but they couldn't put the Adu on the. 00:16:42
On the lot that's already been bulldozed. 00:16:47
No, they can't, because they're creating one big lot, right? 00:16:50
And I drove past this place today. They. 00:16:55
They're constructing, they're working on the House itself. 00:16:58
The larger, bigger home. 00:17:03
Well, the only one that's still there, they do have, yeah, they do have a lot of landscaping and flat work they're doing on that. 00:17:05
Yeah. 00:17:11
Yeah. 00:17:15
Yeah, it looked like they were working on a deck or something. 00:17:16
Sighting and things were. 00:17:19
Off but. 00:17:21
Go go them. 00:17:23
If you have the means. 00:17:26
Just say I love holiday, all right? Any other questions around Eastwood? 00:17:32
Just I mean. 00:17:37
Technically they could build an Adu on this part, but. 00:17:38
They just put in a sport court, so would it. 00:17:42
Would it have the setbacks? 00:17:45
I mean, could they actually do it without? 00:17:48
Bulldozing that they just built. 00:17:50
We've already. 00:17:55
Well, the house. But then they like built this thingy there, right? 00:17:56
Now they've got a sport court and pickable. 00:18:00
Well, they'd have to go through the permit process if they wanted to build anything else there. I'm just wondering if this even 00:18:03
allow them to even ask. 00:18:06
Ask the question unless they got some sort of waiver. 00:18:09
I don't think an Adu has ever been proposed. 00:18:14
For them. 00:18:17
But there's still the setbacks would still apply. 00:18:20
I don't know what. 00:18:22
Specifically where they would locate it. 00:18:23
There wouldn't be a distance. 00:18:26
Separation between the pickleball court, but it definitely from the new property lines. 00:18:28
Cool all right, did we want to circle back to anything on the the lighting and get a little pre work done before the? 00:18:35
Item itself in the public hearing. 00:18:43
Are we all intimidated? 00:18:49
I agree. I'm excited. 00:18:55
I can't wait to learn a lot about lighting. 00:18:57
You said this before, but. 00:19:01
Maybe I missed it I think. 00:19:03
This was. 00:19:06
Sort of instigated because of neighbor to neighbor. 00:19:09
Conflict, but it sounds like the principles are. 00:19:12
General principles that other cities are using. 00:19:15
Is that true? 00:19:17
Yeah, they're generally. 00:19:19
So the concern was. 00:19:21
On Walker Lane there was quite a big large property on the corner of Cottonwood and Walker. 00:19:24
That had been subdivided. 00:19:29
Several years ago. 00:19:31
Those lots. 00:19:33
Was, I think there were probably 3 acres in there and now there's two homes. 00:19:35
So now that the homes are finished and all the lighting treatments have gone in, it's dramatic difference. 00:19:40
From what was there previously. 00:19:46
Especially. 00:19:48
The way that. 00:19:50
I call them wall washers, washers lights that go from the soffit down or from the ground up to wash the building. 00:19:52
The color that they picked. 00:20:01
Based upon reflecting of white stucco. 00:20:03
Is dramatic. 00:20:05
And it's created concern, especially with some lights that they've had on the gates. 00:20:08
So yeah. 00:20:14
I think a majority when we see issues like this. 00:20:16
It's the color of the light that's being used, especially now the LED technology is so prevalent. 00:20:20
In those really blue to white hue spectrums of color. 00:20:26
Rather than the old. 00:20:30
Incandescent bulbs, they're sort of yellowish in tone. 00:20:32
Whenever there's a change in that type of light fixture, it creates. 00:20:36
It's an intensity of light that's very different. 00:20:40
But yeah, most of the elements in this section are. 00:20:46
Very light on the type of standard that it is for. 00:20:51
Light on for a residential property. 00:20:54
A lot of cities are actually going into the realm of. 00:20:59
Getting closer to Dark Sky compliance. 00:21:03
And usually those cities are nearby state parks or national parks or very large BLM land where dark sky elements are. 00:21:05
Very important. 00:21:14
But in urban areas, most of the city's regulations are more. 00:21:17
Focused on the color and the use and the intensity of the light. 00:21:21
So that it doesn't create a glare or a nuisance situation. 00:21:24
Especially for traffic. 00:21:28
But we have had. 00:21:31
Over the years at. 00:21:33
Four to five complaints a year. 00:21:34
Neighbors that have installed, you know, a security light that goes off and it never could. 00:21:37
Turns on, but never turns off. 00:21:41
And it's directed into. 00:21:43
Bedroom windows, that type of thing. 00:21:45
But generally we've been able to work with our code enforcement officer. 00:21:48
You come up with a civil solution to redirect. 00:21:52
Those those light fixtures in a way that's. 00:21:55
Amenable to both neighbors. 00:21:58
This just helps that situation I guess I would say. 00:22:01
Yeah, with this, would this code have addressed all of the situations? 00:22:05
Will this address what you brought up? The wall washing where you have directive lights pointed at your house but there's so much 00:22:10
reflective glare coming off that it's bouncing in? Because the way I read it, it seemed like it was. 00:22:16
Specifically about the fixture and the housing around the fixture and not the actual. 00:22:22
Whatever you would call it, light glare or reflective, yeah, aluminum is coming off your property. 00:22:27
Or something. Yeah. 00:22:31
Council is more interested in. 00:22:33
Having a definition of light trespass. 00:22:35
Rather than trying to figure out, we came up with a way there is a way to calculate. 00:22:38
Reflected light. 00:22:44
And. 00:22:46
That became just too onerous to enforce. 00:22:48
Because you need to have a light meter, and you'd have to determine the ambient light and a difference thereof. 00:22:51
And it was. It would be too complicated. 00:22:56
So it's shielding the light like these would have fully like an esophageal light situation. 00:22:59
Fully recessed up into the soffit itself and then. 00:23:04
While washing down. 00:23:08
Rather than having the. 00:23:10
Filament and exposed in the air and light trespassing across the property. 00:23:11
This code does that to extent. 00:23:18
It's not as onerous, but it's just still does it in a way. So the wall washing will continue, it'll still happen, just in a 00:23:22
different. 00:23:26
Color spectrum. 00:23:30
It just won't be flashing pink neon Adam. 00:23:33
That yellowish tone is a little bit different when it's used rather than the bluish. 00:23:36
White light. 00:23:40
And just on that note, I have this. 00:23:44
One of my favorite photos I was telling Dennis about. 00:23:46
Right here. 00:23:51
There's a dramatic difference in the use of soffit lighting for security lighting in this top element. 00:23:52
Rather than having so much. 00:23:58
That it just completely illuminates the home. 00:24:01
You can see the difference between the street light, the color of the street lights and. 00:24:04
What they've picked as a spectrum of color in their security and decorative. 00:24:07
Very celestial. 00:24:16
There's a ton of definitional stuff in here that came from somewhere. Is there a way to? 00:24:18
Adopt that by reference, so that we. 00:24:24
Don't have to amend it every time. 00:24:27
The source document changes. 00:24:29
And I it's from. 00:24:32
I'll find it and I'll let you know what that is. 00:24:34
There is a standard in here that. 00:24:37
That sort of regulates that type of use. 00:24:39
I think it was. 00:24:42
Those things tend to change overtime. 00:24:45
It becomes somewhat burdensome for us every year to. 00:24:48
See if the code changed and then. 00:24:52
Amended. Yeah, right here. 00:24:54
Illuminating Engineering Society of the ANSI standard. So it's an ANSI standard that they create these. 00:24:56
These sort of generalized. 00:25:02
Definitions. 00:25:04
So if they update that, then it would and there's a couple places in here, a number of places where it says them. 00:25:08
11:00 in writing and 10:00 in parentheses. 00:25:15
Is that still because? 00:25:19
That was an open question or it just had No, I think we originally proposed it. 00:25:21
11 but then I. 00:25:25
I was reminded that our noise ordinance ends at 10, so they should coincide. 00:25:27
OK, that's the intent. I agree that 10:00 is the best. 00:25:32
Types of changes we'll have to go through on this time. 00:25:36
All right, but we are at top of the hour here and I think a couple of commissioners would like a. 00:25:39
Break. So with that, we'll just end the working session and just allow a quick minute before we start the official. 00:25:45
Meeting umm. 00:25:53
With that, I'm going to mute my mic. 00:25:55
Which should probably be a good idea. 00:26:04
And goal is to teach. 00:26:28
OK, I'm here. It's really nice to see you. It's good to see you too. 00:26:34
So has the study started? 00:26:43
It has. 00:26:44
Has. 00:26:46
Things are a little crazy, but good. 00:26:48
Crazy because you're having to go to. 00:26:54
California lot of appointments just. 00:26:58
Yep, that's progress. It is progress. 00:27:02
That's very good benefits. 00:27:14
And how is she feeling? 00:27:17
Not great. 00:27:22
We. 00:27:24
MRI. 00:27:26
I sweetened to check. 00:27:29
Tumor size and for new growth. 00:27:34
All members of. 00:27:37
And no new growth. 00:27:38
The tumor has stayed essentially the same size, but. 00:27:40
There now appears there's. 00:27:44
So interesting how they track things and how they find things. So even though the tumor is. 00:27:47
The same size it has infiltrated into tissue. 00:27:53
Do these sort of? 00:27:58
So. 00:27:59
Make people drive more like the same size when you look at it, but it's going into. 00:28:01
That's a very good SO. 00:28:08
Yeah, it's not a good thing. 00:28:10
Before that. 00:28:13
Not a real great sign. 00:28:15
Basically the idea is she just so like in the last. 00:28:19
Show your. 00:28:25
Two weeks. 00:28:26
Her seizure activity has increased, so she's having more seizures. 00:28:27
Like last night we had a weird. 00:28:33
Episode where? 00:28:36
Like all of a sudden she couldn't like catch her breath. 00:28:39
And everything kind of wet. 00:28:43
Kind of blacked out a little bit, like it just went fuzzy. 00:28:45
And her. 00:28:51
Like tingling, that's exciting. And that lasted the first decade of my career. Get 30 minutes. 00:28:52
This little alarming for her. 00:29:00
Just not. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. 00:29:03
I did a presentation to you last year. Yeah, yeah, we're at the Transportation Research. 00:29:08
It does. It's tough. It's not a fun situation that we're trying to develop some models. 00:29:19
We're hanging in here. 00:29:25
Engineers would be able to measure real time. 00:29:27
When we say impacts, we're talking about all we can do. 00:29:31
So we're trying to dwell. 00:29:38
Available for like. 00:29:44
Ordinary. 00:29:45
No. 00:29:50
You know what various like when her headaches are going back, she gets severe migraines and. 00:29:52
Sometimes we'll use ice. 00:30:01
You know, for that, just to keep her mind like so the focus goes somewhere else. 00:30:03
So there's some things like that. 00:30:10
Get her through it. Take a deep breath. 00:30:17
The size of the people. 00:30:23
She does. She takes medication for the migraines. 00:30:26
But it's not real effective. 00:30:30
With the migrants comes a lot of nausea. 00:30:34
That medication really doesn't work too well. 00:30:39
So. 00:30:43
Yes. 00:30:45
Yeah, that's exactly. 00:30:50
She's she's a trooper. 00:30:59
You're doing angiogram next week. 00:31:03
They're going up. 00:31:08
Into her brain to check. 00:31:09
Integrals, pressure and venous flow. 00:31:12
They're keeping your weight for that. 00:31:18
So I think she got a lot of anxiety over that right now. 00:31:21
And get through that. 00:31:26
I know that. 00:31:31
I don't know. 00:31:32
Really. Don't. She shouldn't, I don't think. 00:31:35
So this year they ran legislation. 00:31:41
Yeah. 00:31:43
You know they have to throw it up, so they go in through the here we go, everybody ready to get to. 00:31:46
After a short break here. 00:31:52
John, let us know. We good. 00:31:56
All right, here we go. 00:31:57
All right, so welcome to the City of Holiday Planning Commission meeting. It is 6:06 PM and we have all but Commissioner Barrett 00:31:59
with us present. City staff and council are present. 00:32:05
Two items on the agenda. 00:32:11
We have an eastward subdivision amendment that we had talked about moving up. However, I don't see an applicant here. 00:32:14
So what we'll do is we'll just roll into the text amendment. I'm going to omit the opening statement because we have no members of 00:32:21
the public with us tonight. 00:32:25
And, umm. 00:32:29
As far as the text amendment, we're going to put a hard stop on the discussion somewhere right around 636, if everyone's 00:32:31
comfortable with that, since we are most likely going to continue this. 00:32:36
Item into a future meeting? Was anyone opposed to that? Any concerns? 00:32:42
All right, so we'll start that timer of 30 minutes and we can just roll right into what we were talking about. 00:32:46
At the end of the work session starting now, so. 00:32:52
With that, we'll turn it over to Mr. Tierlink. 00:32:56
Did you? And I meant the agenda to oh, you're flipping. I'm not flipping. We're just going to roll with it stink. We can keep it 00:33:00
the same. 00:33:03
Right. 00:33:06
Got it. 00:33:09
Thank you SO. 00:33:11
I'm going to stay at this desk so that I can go through these slides as efficiently as possible. 00:33:12
As I mentioned in the work session the City Council has directed staff to. 00:33:19
Draft A. 00:33:24
Amendment to. 00:33:26
Existing holiday lighting ordinances for both commercial and then adding in. 00:33:28
Residential. 00:33:32
Lighting standards. 00:33:33
Specifically, there is a planning committee or the City Council. 00:33:35
Meetings. 00:33:39
Some elements were proposed. 00:33:40
Based upon some concerns that some citizens raised in residential neighborhoods as far as. 00:33:43
Nuisance lighting glare. 00:33:49
Especially around traffic. 00:33:51
Backyards and that sort of. 00:33:53
Sort of concern. 00:33:55
Specifically as they relate to only residential property. 00:33:57
They do. 00:34:01
Enjoy the commercial. 00:34:03
Lighting standards that have been created for Holiday Village Zone. 00:34:05
I think they are a prime example as to how well lighting can. 00:34:08
Be handled as far as commercial retail situation is concerned. 00:34:12
If you go through the village in the evening, you'll see that there's definitely a. 00:34:17
A sense of color use. 00:34:22
Pedestrian. 00:34:24
Scale and the use of lighting that is purposeful rather than just. 00:34:25
Blatantly just illuminating walls. 00:34:31
Features in any type of parking lots that for that matter. 00:34:34
So some of those elements were asked to be brought into. 00:34:38
The residential side. 00:34:42
This presentation that was given to the City Council just gives an overview of what the actual concerns that the community is 00:34:44
interested in. 00:34:49
As far as what light pollution is. 00:34:53
The indiscriminate use of lighting, I mean, it really just comes down to that. 00:34:56
Some of the considerations that. 00:35:02
Can be that can address this type of concern or? 00:35:05
Fixtures that require full shielding. 00:35:09
Soffit locations and the height of how high the soffit. 00:35:12
Lights can be. 00:35:16
And limiting the number of yard types of. 00:35:18
Types of lightings in yards. 00:35:20
And having a direction. 00:35:22
Of that fixture in the useful. 00:35:24
Area of light. So for example if you had a pool or sport court, that type of thing. 00:35:29
To consider a lumens level. 00:35:34
And a spectrum color. 00:35:36
The Kelvin scale is what we'll be talking about a lot. 00:35:39
If you don't happen to know what that is, that's basically just when you go to Home Depot. You see all those that spectrum of 00:35:43
color that you can pick from. 00:35:47
The warm daylight to the cooler. 00:35:50
White, blue colors. 00:35:55
Specifically, council was interested in light trespass and glare. 00:35:58
Not necessarily sky glow. We live in an urban area, it's hard to get around out from underneath. 00:36:02
Sky glow issues, especially when you have Salt Lake City so nearby. 00:36:09
We can, sort of. 00:36:15
Try to do our part. 00:36:17
But it really is not going to go away. 00:36:18
You go up into the canyons, you're going to see it. 00:36:20
But. 00:36:23
At a smaller scale. 00:36:24
Or property line concerned glare and light trespass was something that the council is interested in looking at. 00:36:25
I like the 15th. Yeah, this slide here. 00:36:34
#15. 00:36:36
I think that one is the best example in your whole deck. 00:36:38
Yeah, so. 00:36:41
You can achieve the same effects from your lighting standards just by the type of fixture you choose. 00:36:42
The top example creates multitude of problems, glare, light trespass and even contributes to sky glow. 00:36:51
And the lower element gives. 00:36:58
It doesn't. 00:37:00
Cast that broad light out into this parking lot. But at least at the doors, entrance areas, areas that are private, it does give. 00:37:01
The purposeful use of that light itself, without having to. 00:37:09
Indiscriminately. 00:37:14
Project that light everywhere. 00:37:15
So these elements of when we say we're going to talk about fully shielded fixtures, this is what essentially what we're getting 00:37:18
at. 00:37:21
So mainly we have a couple of council members who are very concerned about security and securing our their own your own property. 00:37:26
With lighting. 00:37:35
There is a way that through the ordinance they can be handled through. 00:37:37
The shielding elements. 00:37:42
Full cut off hood. 00:37:44
And in fact, our code enforcement officer before Chad. 00:37:46
More In Dallas shared this image with us. 00:37:50
He specializes in what something that's called septed, which is crime prevention through environmental design. 00:37:54
And when you have light fixtures which are unshielded like this, it actually creates more of a. 00:38:01
Something that has so much glare in the perceived glare in your own eyes. 00:38:07
You're missing what's going on behind. 00:38:13
Property. 00:38:15
So in order to cut off and use that light properly. 00:38:16
You're able to actually. 00:38:20
Create better security essentially is what the concern is. 00:38:22
I felt like this image was slightly misleading though because he's holding his hand up to block him but. 00:38:25
There's nothing blocking the light shooting at the guy, so if you had a fully shielded light you actually wouldn't see him. That 00:38:31
highly illuminated profile by the fence but. 00:38:36
From a police officer's point of view, if they're going into a situation like this and they have a light, that's just. 00:38:42
Blasting right into their eyes, they're not going to be able to see much that's behind it, and that makes sense. 00:38:48
So specifically to create a distinction between security and safety and decorative and seasonal, I mean, that's that. 00:38:56
Difference is what the Council is more interested in not preventing. 00:39:03
The use of either one. 00:39:07
But creating some parameters to sort of soften the intensity of how those lights are used. 00:39:10
So in this, obviously in this example, we have some security lighting that's being installed. 00:39:17
But also with some decorative and seasonal lighting, especially when you have. 00:39:22
Then more becoming more popular the permanent seasonal Christmas lights. 00:39:26
It can be used year round. 00:39:30
My neighbor just put theirs up. 00:39:33
And now they have flashing green for. 00:39:36
Saint Patrick's Day, which is fantastic. It's fun. 00:39:39
For them. 00:39:42
But that's not something that the Council was. 00:39:45
Right now is concerned about. 00:39:48
We've had a couple of complaints from the neighborhood that has these lights that go all the way around. 00:39:50
Rather than just in the front where you would normally see them. 00:39:58
The complaint basically was well, we had, we've had to have back dark, dark backyards at some point. Now I have. 00:40:02
24/7 these lights that are all the way around the house. 00:40:08
For everything from 4th of July to Super Bowl to Christmas parties. 00:40:12
Luckily we were able to work with that property owner and with these, they're so programmable, they just shut off that back 00:40:18
section. 00:40:21
It's a very simple conclusion. 00:40:26
And the Council was not really interested in. 00:40:29
Eliminating the. 00:40:32
The right to have soffit decorative lighting like in this top image shows. 00:40:35
But be able to regulate it in a way that doesn't have an overabundance of the use of the color that would create an issue with the 00:40:41
neighborhood. 00:40:45
Sport courts is something that we already regulate in our code. 00:40:53
We have added some additional provisions to strengthen those elements. 00:40:56
Lowering the the light standard pole itself, bringing it down closer to the Perry of play. 00:41:01
It was something in particular that we're interested in. 00:41:07
This photo is actually a. 00:41:10
Image from our code enforcement case file. 00:41:12
So the use of. 00:41:15
Sport court lighting that's left on all night long. 00:41:17
Especially as it reflects into people's homes is a concern, especially when we're talking about. 00:41:20
Did I have an image in here of the? 00:41:28
The health effects of. 00:41:31
Of lighting at night. 00:41:33
Yeah. So we have there's. 00:41:37
White papers out there talking about the health regulations and. 00:41:41
How it affects our sleep patterns, especially as humans but also in nature as well. 00:41:45
So John, if I can just clarify, there's as far as the text goes, there's not. 00:41:51
Something that delineates the code being different by zone. 00:41:56
Right, it's going to just be blanket if you're residential, this is the code. 00:42:02
Residential uses R1R2 and. 00:42:08
And then everything else essentially is how it's. 00:42:11
Organized. 00:42:15
So these are some examples of some code considerations. 00:42:19
One of the elements that I think was extremely. 00:42:23
Disheartening as I was researching this. 00:42:27
Is if you were to go to. 00:42:30
Home Depot or Lowe's? 00:42:31
You're not likely going to find. 00:42:34
A fixture that will meet these standards. 00:42:36
In this whole wall, and there was this one here that's circled that might meet. 00:42:38
A fully cut off hooded. 00:42:43
Picture itself so. 00:42:46
Enforcement is going to be difficult. 00:42:48
And for property owners for myself to find something that complies if I have an addition or a construction of a home. 00:42:50
I might have to have a. 00:42:57
A custom order from a website or something? 00:43:01
Be able to find it locally. 00:43:03
Would it be? 00:43:07
Permissible for the city to work with. 00:43:08
Local vendors such as like the ACE. 00:43:11
Hardware's that are. 00:43:14
Located within the city and approach them and say hey, we can send you customers for this specific product. 00:43:16
Yeah. I mean, if we're reaching out and mentioning that there's efforts, especially as far as our grassroots concerned. 00:43:22
Neighborhoods can go out and ask for certain elements to be. 00:43:30
Provided as stock. 00:43:33
Some fixtures actually have this dark sky approved logo on their. 00:43:36
Boxes. 00:43:40
I couldn't find one when I went to Lowe's. 00:43:42
But I'm sure if that was, you know, something that was asked. 00:43:47
To stock. I'm sure they could. I don't know if the city could actually come out and ask for that, but. 00:43:50
At least from the neighborhood for sure. 00:43:55
And the other element was. 00:44:00
Most municipalities when they're requiring a review of compliance. 00:44:03
What are they submitting this to the city so that justice and carry? 00:44:07
Can look at a set of plans and say yes this complies with the code. 00:44:12
One of those elements is a lighting plan, so similar to a landscaping plan or a tree removal replacement plan or site plan. 00:44:16
With this code, they're going to be required if you were to build an addition to your house or build a new home. 00:44:24
To prepare a lighting plan. 00:44:30
Most cities require that plan to be prepared by a specialist. 00:44:33
The Council was a little uncomfortable with that, so we withdrew that that that requirement. 00:44:39
So if you knew that with the standards in the code, you could come up with some fixtures that would you believe would comply and 00:44:44
we would just verify. 00:44:48
If we got into the commercial side forever, if we're bringing something to you to review for a lighting plan. 00:44:52
The requirement to having them prepared by professionals is still there. 00:44:58
You're going to need that that level of expertise. 00:45:02
When you're looking at that larger scale. 00:45:06
So locations, illustrations, cut sheets, you know. 00:45:10
Printouts of websites is something that we want to take a look at. 00:45:13
To help review. 00:45:17
Another element was some cities. 00:45:21
Other require you to turn things on and off 30 days before, 30 days after. 00:45:23
Holiday The City Council is not really interested in that at all. 00:45:28
Excuse me? 00:45:32
How do we? 00:45:33
Make sure that. 00:45:35
Lighting plan. 00:45:37
Shows evidence of complying lighting fixtures if they can't find complying lighting fixtures. 00:45:38
That's what I'm saying. These are some of the elements that are difficult in this code for both the city as a regulatory body and 00:45:46
a property owner. 00:45:50
Yes. So how do you get beyond that? 00:45:55
They'll have to go out to the web and find something and have it custom ordered. 00:45:58
Or they could just take some there's this this product by Reynolds called Tinfoil that you can just kind of. 00:46:04
Wrap up around those fixtures and. 00:46:11
Problem solved. I don't know how aesthetic it is, but. 00:46:14
External. 00:46:17
Yes. 00:46:21
All new construction. 00:46:22
Yeah, when you reviewed external ad us you immediately. 00:46:25
Geared yourself toward. 00:46:30
Dark Sky compliant fixtures. 00:46:31
That was that was already something that you put in there. 00:46:33
Dark sky and this is. 00:46:36
Completely different but. 00:46:38
Some of the elements of fully cut off hoods in the dark sky elements is something that they look for anyway. 00:46:39
Yeah, I following up on that. I would, I would be. 00:46:47
We have to be realistic. 00:46:54
If there isn't product out here. 00:46:56
Six month delivery. 00:47:04
Yeah. 00:47:09
Or there's a lot of stuff on Amazon. 00:47:10
I think it's reasonable to say just because I can't find it at our local lows. 00:47:14
Everyone uses Amazon. That's reason to believe it's out there. 00:47:18
Yeah, here, here, here. Pages and pages of it. 00:47:21
So I don't think it's saying it doesn't exist. 00:47:25
And I think saying it's online available, they don't have to be custom made. 00:47:28
I mean, so I think that's a reasonable thing to do. 00:47:33
There is administrative relief built into the code. 00:47:38
That says I can't find something that is meets this standard, but there is this other product. 00:47:42
So they can propose that. 00:47:48
As a way to still meet the ordinance. 00:47:50
Because. 00:47:53
Technology changes. 00:47:54
We can't write an ordinance that stays the same for. 00:47:56
Five years. 00:47:59
Is there anything in the? 00:48:01
Draft of this that gives consideration to setbacks as far as. 00:48:03
Placement of lighting on a property. For example, if I. 00:48:08
Wanted to put in an Adu or. 00:48:12
******** or whatever. 00:48:15
Could I literally like 2 feet from the corner of the fence as long as it's pointing down even though it's illuminating? 00:48:17
Everything in my neighbor's backyard right there. 00:48:24
As long as. 00:48:27
If your neighbor. 00:48:28
Calls you in and our code enforcement officer using the definition of light trespass that's in the code. 00:48:31
Can determine that you're compliant. 00:48:37
There really isn't light. 00:48:39
Trespassing across the property line. 00:48:41
Yeah, you can put it right on the property line. 00:48:43
What they wanted to get away from is allowing property owners to. 00:48:47
Place lights on fence posts to Shinedown to illuminate fence panels at certain distances. 00:48:51
So the element of the light is fully cut off and it's not shining across the property line and it's directed down. You can still 00:48:58
do that right on a property line. 00:49:01
So even if it's illuminating the fence and now I can see my. 00:49:05
Neighbors fence all the way across because it's illuminated as long as the light is staying on their side of the property line. 00:49:09
They're good. 00:49:15
Some of these things you just have to see it. 00:49:18
Yeah, I just, I didn't know if there was anything in the text that actually prevented lighting is different. 00:49:20
So soffit lighting. They limit it to a maximum of 20 feet. 00:49:26
Above the grade. 00:49:30
So some of these pitches are pretty tall. When you get up into 32 and 35 feet, you have soffit lights that run the entire 00:49:31
ridgeline. 00:49:35
So soffit lights are limited to 20. 00:49:40
And sport court lighting was brought down. 00:49:43
To a height of 12 I think. 00:49:46
Feet high that we brought that sport court lighting down. 00:49:48
As far as height. 00:49:52
What was it before? I didn't see. I think it was 18 feet. 00:49:56
Yeah. 00:49:59
18. 00:50:01
That when we started seeing those light fixtures in practice. 00:50:03
I mean, that's as high as a parking lot. 00:50:08
Light. 00:50:10
Other than that, I mean that's the extent of what this so short. 00:50:15
Color photo presentation was. 00:50:19
I think it might be. 00:50:22
Beneficial Just to help you understand that now there is a residential section. 00:50:24
Which covers the R1 and R2. 00:50:30
Zones. 00:50:32
And then there's also now a commercial. 00:50:35
Or all other zone lighting standards. 00:50:38
We have written in here. 00:50:42
You are in the RMU zone. Refer to the RMU zone for the lighting code. 00:50:44
If you're in the HV zone, refer to that section. 00:50:49
Otherwise. 00:50:52
All those other zones will be moved will be basically struck and referred back to this section. 00:50:53
So the R1. 00:51:02
Two in order to OK. 00:51:04
Yeah. 00:51:06
Therefore, the reason why I think it would be really great if you have the Planning Commission can read through this, have that 00:51:16
you have the opportunity to read through it and fully digest it and then. 00:51:20
At your next meeting, we can readdress any comments and concerns you can have. 00:51:24
John, do you have any sense of how many other? 00:51:30
Cities in the county. 00:51:32
Have similar. 00:51:35
Code yeah. 00:51:36
Um, did I put it in your staff report? 00:51:40
We did that study for the Council just. 00:51:43
Just to kind of get an idea where they're. 00:51:46
Where they were. 00:51:48
Maybe I didn't put it in there. 00:51:54
Yeah, we're the only one. 00:51:59
Do you other people not fight about this or? 00:52:02
Are we just being more? I think we're just generally for the past 20 years, we've been good neighbors. 00:52:05
Thank you. I'm on the. 00:52:09
Parent Advisory Committee for the building over rebuilding over at Skyline. 00:52:13
And we have been dealing with neighbor issues and lights, pathway lights. 00:52:17
Lights from the fields for years and so it's. 00:52:24
You know, they've had people out there with light meters and, you know, light engineers and the whole 9 yards, so. 00:52:29
It really does get contentious, and so I think we're lucky that it hasn't. 00:52:35
Risen to that level. 00:52:40
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about something that really invades your own. 00:52:42
Private property, especially when it comes into your own home. 00:52:46
It's concerning and our code enforcement officers take it very seriously. 00:52:50
It is a health issue. It's a nuisance problem. 00:52:56
So they. 00:52:59
Their bedside manner is very courteous when they start addressing the neighbors as far as. 00:53:01
Helping you understand what? 00:53:06
What's going on and what the concern is? 00:53:07
If it's just retribution, it's hard to deal. 00:53:10
That we have neighbors fighting each other and it happens. 00:53:12
You know one neighbor buys some certain type of. 00:53:16
Type of light or a basketball. 00:53:19
You see the basketball standards with the light that's like 10 feet above it. 00:53:22
And then the neighbor shows up with another spotlight that just. 00:53:26
She would sit at each other. 00:53:30
This I think might address that. Not to say that the problem isn't there. 00:53:32
I think we definitely have been. Holiday has been great neighbors with each other. 00:53:36
I hate to say that it's a situation that many neighbors would just have to deal with. I don't think your health regulation is or 00:53:41
concern is something you have to just deal with. 00:53:45
So I think there is a way. 00:53:50
To create some regulation in our single family zones that are similar. 00:53:53
That just create. 00:53:57
A level of courtesy. 00:53:59
And if it's not there? 00:54:02
The code is there so the code enforcement officer can point to it and say. 00:54:04
Count the city in general has looked at because. 00:54:08
Concerns and now has created a standard. 00:54:10
And this is what the expectation is for new construction. 00:54:13
If you have an element a fixture, that's already out of compliance as long as you're not changing the fixture. 00:54:17
Or you're not building an addition onto the house. 00:54:23
The light bulb can be changed. 00:54:26
Anything can happen with that, up to. 00:54:29
I think we put 300 lumens in there. 00:54:31
Which I tried that out I went and bought a 300 lumen bulb and put it in my yard light. 00:54:34
That's bright. 00:54:40
It's LED. 00:54:41
It's that really cool Edison looking element that's on the inside. It looks kind of like an incandescent bulb. 00:54:43
It's supposed to be on like the 5000 warmer level. 00:54:50
But it turned out to be a really bright. 00:54:55
Yard light. 00:54:57
It was only at 303 hundred lumen. 00:54:58
Equivalent. 00:55:03
LED. Yeah, yeah. 00:55:03
OK, so this is a little off the. 00:55:06
Path of this, but I'm just curious if the city does adopt and. 00:55:10
Put into enforce these. 00:55:15
The text amendment around lighting. 00:55:18
Does the city have a plan for all the? 00:55:21
Legal nonconforming St. lamps that are not fully enclosed. As far as replacing those and upgrading. 00:55:24
Well, we'd have to. 00:55:32
We had to come compliance our own code. 00:55:34
And that was a problem, you know, we had, I think it was about 10 years ago or so. 00:55:36
We had a really great grant from the the county. 00:55:42
Upgraded all our metal halide. 00:55:45
Streetlights to. 00:55:47
And at the time, I don't think we everyone realized the color of that LED light that it gives off. 00:55:50
Super efficient, but that white bluish light is not conducive to. 00:55:55
Both pedestrians or street traffic. 00:56:00
And it reflects. 00:56:03
Quite a bit. So no, we would have to come back. 00:56:04
With our own standards. 00:56:07
Just curious on that. Thank you. 00:56:11
Umm, what other questions do we have on this? 00:56:14
We're super excited to talk about lights some more in the next meeting. 00:56:20
I think so. Going forward, if you have comments, e-mail them to us. 00:56:26
And then we can sort of condense them all. 00:56:32
Into a packet so we can. 00:56:35
Go through them. 00:56:37
Efficiently as possible. 00:56:38
I think that might be more helpful than trying to have an open discussion. 00:56:40
So red line this up however you'd like to do it, either with a pen or. 00:56:45
Through word processing and send them send their comments over to us. 00:56:49
If I could request for the next meeting, would it be possible for staff to? 00:56:53
Generate two or three examples of what? 00:56:59
Applicants would be asked to do with lighting plans. 00:57:03
Just so. 00:57:08
We know kind of what the future would look like if this was in force today. 00:57:09
What are some of the things that. 00:57:15
Staff would be looking for and. 00:57:16
How does that get measured? How does that get rejected? That sort of thing? 00:57:19
I think in here. 00:57:24
Just as we're now that we're on the topic. 00:57:26
There's a section that talks about what is actually required in the lighting plan itself. 00:57:30
OK, so site plan submitter requirements. 00:57:43
So you're not in the commercial or multifamily section, but in the residential. The list is pretty small. 00:57:47
Location of all light fixtures proposed and already existing. 00:57:53
And a description of each lamp. 00:57:57
Fixture with support and Shield. 00:57:59
With manufacturer cut sheets. 00:58:02
As far as the details of their use so. 00:58:05
If you found the Amazon. 00:58:07
Product you're interested in? 00:58:10
If they submitted that with the site plan and the location where it's being used, similar to a tree planting plan. 00:58:12
What the tree is, where it's going to go. 00:58:18
Was what we're interested in looking at. 00:58:20
And that's it. 00:58:23
From there we'll. 00:58:26
Have to rely on. 00:58:27
Justice's keen insight on lighting engineering. 00:58:29
Determined of compliance on that. 00:58:33
Fair enough. And I noticed on the times on there I was just curious so. 00:58:36
As far as like the time restrictions that are listed in there? 00:58:41
For various. 00:58:46
Code reasons. 00:58:47
Does that take into account? 00:58:49
The movement of the sun and daylight savings because like. 00:58:52
For me, I just I find it kind of silly to restrict lights. 00:58:56
You know. 00:59:00
10:00 if the sun's still shining type of thing. 00:59:01
No, it just follows the noise ordinance. 00:59:05
We could, I mean, we could look at it that in that depth, absolutely. 00:59:09
Yeah, like if the sun S up like it's OK, you know what I mean? If you want to waste the power at desk. 00:59:13
No, we can definitely look at that. 00:59:22
OK, umm. 00:59:23
Well, this is Commissioner Prince. I would like to make a motion at this point. 00:59:24
I motion that we continue the proposed outdoor lighting standards amendment to our next regularly scheduled meeting. Oh, before 00:59:29
you make that motion. 00:59:33
I do need to open the public hearing for this. 00:59:38
Seeing how we have no members of public here to make a comment. 00:59:41
Now I can motion. 00:59:46
Right, Jamie, yes. Do you intend with your motion to continue the public hearing and the item? 00:59:50
Yes, I would like to do to avoid having to re notice the public hearing you'll want to. 00:59:56
Note a specific date when you'll take it up again. 01:00:02
I think it's April first is our next meeting. 01:00:07
Question mark. 01:00:11
Just kidding. Not kidding. Yes, April first. 01:00:12
OK. So I motion that we will continue this to the April first meeting. 01:00:15
Thank you. 01:00:23
Motion, Do we have a second? 01:00:24
Commissioner gone. Commissioner flaunt. Both seconded simultaneously. All right. With that, we'll call for a vote. Commissioner 01:00:26
Cunningham. 01:00:29
Commissioner Belchinski, Aye. Commissioner Vaughn aye. Commissioner Prince Aye. Mr. Gone aye. 01:00:33
And Chair Roach votes aye so that unanimously will stay open. 01:00:37
All right. Thank you very much. And with that, I don't see an applicant here, but we will go ahead with the. 01:00:42
East winds subdivision unless we need the applicant here. Do they need to be here for this application? 01:00:48
It's courteous, but no. 01:00:54
Courteous but shoulder shrug says OK, go ahead. So with that, we'll roll forward. It's on the agenda. They paid the money for it. 01:00:55
And which city staff would like to walk us through a quick summary on this? 01:01:02
Good evening. 01:01:16
I'm Justice 24. 01:01:18
Would the city planning department so I'm the staff responsible for. 01:01:20
The East Wind subdivision amendment. 01:01:26
Application. 01:01:29
So the address for this application is 2648 E. 01:01:30
45 S. 01:01:35
45 S. 01:01:37
That property is located within one of the city's R18 zone. 01:01:39
With the applicant seeking to expand the size of their property. 01:01:45
The property is currently within the East Wind Subdivision. 01:01:52
Now as I mentioned early. 01:01:56
On in the discussions. 01:01:59
This subdivision used to be a three lot subdivision. 01:02:02
It was created. 01:02:05
Sometime in 2003. 01:02:07
The subdivision was amended in 2024. 01:02:10
Into a 2 lot subdivision when the owners of. 01:02:14
Lot 1 and Lot 3. 01:02:17
Bought their middle. 01:02:19
Lot which is lot 2 and then split them between themselves. 01:02:21
Now the applicant is proposing to. 01:02:25
Amend the size. 01:02:27
Of his lot which is currently. 01:02:29
Designated as Lot 1A. 01:02:32
In the second. 01:02:34
Version of the subdivision amendment. 01:02:36
Now they're they're proposing this in light of the fact that they they bought the. 01:02:39
Neighboring property. 01:02:44
That fronts on Wonder Lane with the address. 01:02:45
For that property. 01:02:51
Being. 01:02:54
One second, so the address for the one on Wonder Lane. 01:02:57
OK, so that one. 01:03:09
It's 404549 S Wonder Lane. 01:03:16
So when the property owner bought that property is proposing to. 01:03:21
At that or. 01:03:26
Say, incorporate that lot into Lot 1A. 01:03:27
So that's what this application is about. 01:03:31
Staff did an assessment. 01:03:34
From the Technical review Committee. 01:03:36
To check for compliance and basically what. 01:03:39
This applicant is proposing to do is not creating any. 01:03:42
Non compliant situation. 01:03:45
Because they are expanding the absolute size of the lot. 01:03:48
So in terms of lot frontage requirements, minimum lot size requirements. 01:03:52
They comply with all those zoning regulations. 01:03:57
OK. 01:04:03
Do we have any questions for city staff on this? 01:04:05
All right, perfect. And since there's no applicant to invite over and this isn't a public hearing, we can just move to. 01:04:08
Discussion on this item if there is any. 01:04:16
And if everybody feels really great, the reason that we would have. 01:04:20
Right. As far as zoning and you know the things within our purview. 01:04:26
Seems fine. 01:04:31
I mean, we could speculate on all the fun things they're going to do with it. I hear something about pickleball. But. 01:04:32
Yeah, moving the lot lines around and. 01:04:38
Making their. 01:04:40
Two lots, one big one. 01:04:42
I guess TRC signed off on it, staff signed US signed off on it. 01:04:44
Is there a technical definition of what means to maintain a double frontage? 01:04:49
Does that just mean it? 01:04:53
I mean, what's the definition of frontage? 01:04:56
Yeah, there is a definition for double lot frontage. 01:04:59
And really, it's just that. 01:05:03
A lot that has frontage on two public streets. 01:05:05
They put that element, puts them into a separate category so that we can assess certain zoning requirements. 01:05:08
What would be the front yard? 01:05:16
What's a side yard? What's the rear yard? That type of thing, Yeah. 01:05:17
Now they have to have. Do they have to maintain easements on both of those or? 01:05:22
Yeah, there's the one easement in between I think they're looking to vacate, but everything else will have to be. 01:05:27
Rededicated. 01:05:32
I think that's shown in your plat here. 01:05:34
So it would be new easements to go around the. 01:05:37
Outside. 01:05:39
The new. 01:05:41
Well, the amended lot. 01:05:43
We're not creating a new lock. 01:05:46
Or I should say the egress, not the easement. My apologies. So basically do they have to keep the driveway on? 01:05:47
Wander. Not necessarily. I mean similar with. 01:05:53
Double fronting lots. 01:05:58
You can have a driveway off of that other property, especially if you're on a corner. You can have one driveway per St. frontage. 01:06:01
Yes. 01:06:07
All right, well, with that, if anybody is ready to make a motion, unless there's more questions, I'll be happy to try. Hey, look 01:06:10
at that, Mister Cunningham. Go ahead. 01:06:14
This Commissioner Cunningham and I Motion to approve the subdivision plat Amendment application by Mike. 01:06:18
Spainhauer for east wind. 01:06:24
An amendment to the existing Lot 1A within the East Wind subdivision. 01:06:26
Located at 2648 E 4510 S. 01:06:31
In the R118 zone. 01:06:35
Based on the following findings, 1 development details required for subdivision amendment. 01:06:38
Have been submitted and reviewed by the TRC. 01:06:43
To the proposed amendment to the lot complies with the minimum width and area. 01:06:47
For single home development in the R18 zone. 01:06:51
Three, the required submittals for subdivision amendment have been provided where applicable and have been found to be complete 01:06:56
and acceptable. 01:07:00
For fire accesses existing and approved by the USA. 01:07:04
Five public roads and easement utility easements are shown on the plat. 01:07:08
This is Commissioner Prince. I'll second that motion. 01:07:14
All right. We have motion and a second. We'll start down here. Commissioner, gone. 01:07:16
Mr. Prince. 01:07:20
Mr. Floyd? Aye, Mr. Voltinski. 01:07:22
And Commissioner Cunningham aye, and Chair Roche votes aye. So with that it passes unanimously. 01:07:24
For that recommendation so. 01:07:30
That takes us to the end of our agenda and I will make a motion to adjourn. All in favor, aye? 01:07:32
Aye, any opposed? 01:07:39
Done and done, have a great night. 01:07:40
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Transcript
All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work session. 00:00:00
In attendance tonight we have three city. 00:00:05
Staff and council with us and then we are. 00:00:10
Regrets for Commissioner Baron and we have not heard from Commissioner Villchinski, but we have enough to have a quorum present. 00:00:13
And we have two items on the agenda. 1 is a public hearing that we are going to be leaving open. 00:00:20
Umm for the text amendment on lighting and then we have the East Wind subdivision amendment. 00:00:27
So who wants to walk us through this awesome text amendment? 00:00:33
From city staff. 00:00:39
I'll be happy to do that. 00:00:41
Awesome. 00:00:42
So in October of last year. 00:00:44
Councilmember Gray has been approached by a couple of citizens in her area concerned about residential lighting. 00:00:47
Over the years. 00:00:54
Our code enforcement officer has been. 00:00:55
Addressing code or. 00:00:58
Compliance or issues with between neighbors and their neighborhood. Backyard lighting, sort of in a civil manner. 00:01:00
Really don't have any rules that regulate. 00:01:07
How lights are to be? 00:01:10
Directed. Used. 00:01:13
In residential for residential properties. 00:01:16
The Planning Commission has authority to review site plans for on a commercial level. 00:01:18
Lighting compliance for dark sky standards. 00:01:25
The last site plan the Planning Commission reviewed at that level was would be in the hotel. 00:01:29
On Highland Drive in about 6400 S. 00:01:34
But for single family homes when they are built. 00:01:37
Staff does not review lighting plans. 00:01:41
So the Council over the. 00:01:44
Past few months got together with staff to direct them to. 00:01:47
Come up with a framework that addresses. 00:01:52
Lighting in residential neighborhoods. 00:01:55
Over several meetings, what you see as a draft in front of you now. 00:01:57
Is where they're comfortable. 00:02:02
Creating a standard for regulating lighting on residential property. 00:02:05
And later on we can go through it. 00:02:11
There's a lot here, so I don't expect us to fully, completely understand it immediately. So that's why we're recommending we 00:02:14
continue this discussion. 00:02:18
And leaving the hearing open. 00:02:23
Just in case there's some amendments to the text that. 00:02:25
You would need public input on. 00:02:28
So generally that's what we're, that's where we're at right now. 00:02:31
And have you received any comments from? 00:02:35
The public on this? 00:02:39
No, I was expecting to have some written comments by the. 00:02:41
Yesterday. 00:02:45
That none that I have received. 00:02:46
I don't think our staff has received any. 00:02:48
But I would fully expect. 00:02:51
A couple of the residents here to make comment. 00:02:53
At some point. 00:02:57
I mean because like, we all got lights, right? 00:02:58
You know, we've had one resident. 00:03:01
Here. 00:03:11
For the Commission or. 00:03:17
And I had a chance in the work session to just bring up the PowerPoint that was included in that. 00:03:22
And I got like immediately the Spidey sense tingled and I like got really upset when it said something on one of the slides about 00:03:28
Christmas lights. And I was like, don't take away my holiday lighting. Now. That's, that's my, that's my pride in Christmas time, 00:03:33
you know? 00:03:38
And talking with John, that's not. 00:03:42
Included in the text amendment right. There's nothing about holiday lighting and specific. 00:03:46
Timeframes on when you can have those lights. 00:03:51
Yeah. We use that planning that PowerPoint as sort of a. 00:03:53
30,000 foot level for the Council to review What cities do regulate? 00:03:57
And what you're comfortable with, what they're comfortable with. 00:04:02
Directing staff. 00:04:05
And spending enforcement time on. 00:04:06
And so from that PowerPoint, it whittled down to what you see now is the draft text. 00:04:09
OK. So yeah, there's a lot of elements in that PowerPoint presentation that are not. 00:04:14
Included in. 00:04:19
And you know me, I'm going to go for the pictures and the easy way out without just diving too deep into the text, so. 00:04:22
Thank you for indulging me on explaining that part of it. 00:04:28
But did we have questions on this one? I have a question. Is part of the reason? 00:04:32
You're recommending that we continue this? 00:04:37
So that we allow more time for comment. 00:04:40
No more time to understand the code itself. 00:04:43
OK. 00:04:47
And what the details are and what they actually mean for. 00:04:48
Both enforcement. 00:04:52
And, umm. 00:04:53
The levels of. 00:04:55
Color, intensity, location. 00:04:57
Place and time those types of elements, so. 00:05:00
And that brings me to my second question. 00:05:03
And that's about enforcement. 00:05:06
It just seems to me that's a real can of worms. 00:05:08
It is. 00:05:12
That's why what the reason why we've written it in a way that it's objective, so that there actually are measurements that we can 00:05:14
use rather than subjective. 00:05:18
I don't like those lights. 00:05:23
They have to meet a standard of. 00:05:25
Blair or have an issue of problem that our code enforcement officer can actually. 00:05:27
Measure scientifically. 00:05:31
And we have one. Do we have a code enforcement officer? 00:05:34
Did we replace? 00:05:39
I forgot his name. 00:05:41
Warren Yes. 00:05:42
Yeah, we replaced Warren. His name's Chad Peterson. 00:05:44
We brought Chad in from Midvale. 00:05:48
So it's still within the updates. 00:05:51
Department but. 00:05:53
It's fully aware of the code. 00:05:54
Or even our chief made some comments on it as far as how he believes. 00:05:56
They can enforce on it. 00:06:00
They have some concerns, but they understand. 00:06:01
He understands particularly. 00:06:04
Lighting and generally. 00:06:06
So he's comfortable with. 00:06:08
We're at right now. 00:06:10
Of course it's going to. It's definitely going to add a different layer of enforcement. 00:06:12
Sure, I remember the. 00:06:16
Intent from an enforcement standpoint is either going to be reactive or proactive in the development stage. It's not necessarily. 00:06:20
Driving around to harass people about lighting, right? No. Then that's never been. 00:06:28
Right. 00:06:33
OK, this will create a bunch of non conforming uses however. 00:06:35
Yes, and and so. 00:06:39
Is the Council's vision that? 00:06:42
Someday they'll. 00:06:44
Stop the grandfathering. 00:06:46
Not in the code. There's a section on nonconforming uses, so unless they're upgrading their property in the terms of. 00:06:49
A new construction. 00:06:56
That's when the upgrade has to take place. 00:06:57
So upgrading the lights wouldn't be sufficient to make it a. 00:07:01
No. So they could actually in retaliation. 00:07:05
For a complaint. 00:07:08
Increase the intensity of the lighting they currently have. 00:07:10
We can get into that section. I'll show you how that works. 00:07:14
Yeah, OK. 00:07:17
It's going to be a fun discussion, I think. 00:07:21
So all right. 00:07:25
Well. 00:07:27
Depending on how the work meeting goes, we have one other item we can talk through and then maybe circle back and just kind of 00:07:28
start some of the questions without any decision making or any of that kind of stuff, right, so. 00:07:33
If we want to roll into the East Wind subdivision, who wants to walk us through that one? 00:07:38
Justice fantastic. 00:07:46
I'm not sure if your mics on but I can hear you. 00:07:48
Yeah, just to reintroduce myself. Justice too, for one of the city planners. 00:07:51
In the planning division. 00:07:56
So with the East Wind subdivision, what? 00:07:57
What the applicant is actually seeking to do. 00:08:00
Is to expand the size of his property. 00:08:02
And the East Wind subdivision originally started out as a three lot. 00:08:05
Subdivision. 00:08:09
The applicants lot was originally Lot 1. 00:08:11
And after the 2003 subdivision plot was. 00:08:14
Amended in 2024. 00:08:19
Into a 2 lot subdivision. 00:08:21
The two lot subdivision happened when. 00:08:24
The owner of lot 1 and the owner of lot 3. 00:08:27
They bought 2. 00:08:30
And then split. 00:08:31
In U2, so it moved from a three lot subdivision into. 00:08:33
Subdivision and now the owner of. 00:08:37
1A has bought the neighboring property. 00:08:40
That front on Wanderlane. 00:08:44
And it's proposing to add that to. 00:08:46
Is locked. 00:08:49
So that's basically what that subdivision amendment is about. 00:08:50
What will that allow him to do that they can't do now? 00:08:57
Well right now as as it stands the the property is conforming to the minimum lot size requirement frontage requirement. 00:09:03
So that there weren't any. 00:09:11
Really, I would say restrictions it was. 00:09:16
Was somehow narrow. 00:09:20
Looking at the original subdivision plat. 00:09:22
Was very narrow, but right now. 00:09:25
Adding that lot, the neighboring lot to the West to it would expand their capacity to. 00:09:28
Do any future improvements like additions? 00:09:34
To the existing house. 00:09:37
On the lot. 00:09:38
I mean, so he could put a little chunk of house off the back of his house if he wanted to make it bigger, and then have a really 00:09:42
big backyard or side yard, I guess, depending on how you want to look at it, yeah. 00:09:49
It's just odd in the shape. 00:09:56
With the house in the corner, but. 00:09:58
I mean, there's no reason that they can't do it that I can think of. 00:10:00
But it almost makes me think there's a bigger planet. 00:10:04
At some point. 00:10:09
Pick up some more lots. 00:10:10
You can subdivide and take advantage of the excess acre or excess square feet. 00:10:12
To build additional new houses, which is maybe a good thing. 00:10:17
They actually have a permit for an addition. 00:10:21
Onto that new. 00:10:26
A property that they plot so. 00:10:27
Amending the subdivision plot would actually allow them to. 00:10:30
Do that in principle. 00:10:34
And I can't remember, is this an R110 zone? 00:10:40
180 it's an R18. 00:10:42
So these guys are up or I guess upgrading down grading, however you want to look at it to like an R15 with the way they keep 00:10:45
buying lots and expanding, right? 00:10:49
So. 00:10:53
I mean. 00:10:56
As long as they put in lots of trees, I'm for it. 00:10:58
Maybe they need. Maybe they want to take out SO. 00:11:02
As they put back good ones, I don't know. 00:11:06
All right. Any other questions on the East Wind subdivide? 00:11:08
For staff. 00:11:12
OK, so we've got 15 minutes left of work meeting unless anyone's itching to have a question. Well, I just do have one thought. 00:11:14
I actually need to leave at 5:00 to 7:00. Is there a possibility that we could flip the item since? 00:11:22
The one is going to stay open. 00:11:29
You know, the lighting and stuff. 00:11:33
I don't know if that's possible that's possible. 00:11:35
OK. That would be great. You can just have a motion to amend the agenda accordingly. 00:11:37
OK. All right. Because otherwise I will just sort of. 00:11:41
Scoochie. 00:11:44
You don't think we can get these done? 00:11:46
I mean, we could. 00:11:47
And I, I already talked with the city staff about maybe putting a 30 minute cap on tonight's discussion around the lighting. Oh, 00:11:48
Hallelujah. I mean, since we are continuing it, I think it's a fine choice. How many hours you've had to spend on this? I would 00:11:56
just like to say I feel kind of bad for this house on the corner that's going to be surrounded by this little compound. 00:12:03
Well, it's not little, you know. Maybe they'll buy it next. 00:12:11
Right. So and also we've lost an entire home. 00:12:14
Yeah, where housing stocks so. 00:12:18
Interesting. 00:12:23
That was that was all I had. Thanks. 00:12:24
What do you figure? 00:12:26
We've lost an entire home. 00:12:27
They've demolished that house. 00:12:29
They have. It's their yard. 00:12:31
Yeah. 00:12:36
But we have some great amenities in the neighborhood now. 00:12:38
And as long as you get to know the owner, then hey. 00:12:42
Community Yeah, I actually have a question about that. I noticed all those letters from the utility companies about vacating the 00:12:45
easement. 00:12:49
They're like removing all of the power and things or not necessarily. Well, go ahead, Justice. I was just curious what that meant 00:12:54
to vacate an easement. I don't know. 00:12:59
So when subdivision amendments occur and then there's easements in place via the plat. 00:13:07
They can be vacated, but they have to have approvals from each individual utility provider, proving that there aren't any 00:13:13
facilities in. 00:13:16
So to vacate an easement, you had to make sure that there are no facilities there to begin with. 00:13:22
Yeah, the easement was just set aside as a placeholder for utilities to in place just in case there's the there's there. 00:13:26
Item OK, cool, they wouldn't hold it. 00:13:34
For. 00:13:38
Just in case. 00:13:39
I think they want to build in that area. 00:13:41
I think their addition to their house, they want to build across that easement area, so. 00:13:44
Yeah, yeah, they would have to read it. 00:13:50
Different easements in different. 00:13:54
This keeps the. 00:14:01
But their intent for the future of that property is not our concern this evening. 00:14:05
Not necessarily. The only intent of the purpose of this amendment is. 00:14:12
They can't build across the property line. 00:14:18
And or you can't have an accessory use on a. 00:14:21
Parcel without a primary use first, so they demolished the primary use. 00:14:26
They want to have accessory uses there. 00:14:30
So it has to be joined with the primary property. 00:14:33
Itself. 00:14:36
So one, they can't build across this property line that's currently there, that's not really highlighted, but it's right in 00:14:37
between these two, OK. 00:14:41
And want to have an addition that either goes really close or crossing that property line. 00:14:44
Oh, so is the permit they have now, is that what it's intending to do is cross that? 00:14:51
Yeah, we can't get. 00:14:56
Approved until this amendment takes place. 00:15:00
So they couldn't build. 00:15:02
They couldn't decide to build. 00:15:04
Adus on. 00:15:06
The on the new property. 00:15:08
Associated with the existing property. 00:15:13
Without combining the properties. 00:15:17
Yes, but isn't that the whole point to the discussion this evening? They want to combine the property. They want to combine the 00:15:21
properties. 00:15:24
Yeah, so if they didn't want to have. 00:15:27
An addition that would violate a set back for that next to that property line. 00:15:32
And they wanted to keep. 00:15:36
Primary home on the lot. The way it is now, they would have to do anything. 00:15:37
If they wanted to put an Adu or a pool house or a shed, something that's accessory. 00:15:41
You have to have. You have to establish the primary use first on a lot before an accessory use gets to be in place. 00:15:47
So therefore you have to combine everything together to establish the primary house with accessory uses. 00:15:53
It's a very expensive, roundabout way of doing it. 00:16:01
So as is with it being 2 separate lots, each of those lots could have a primary structure and an accessory structure completely 00:16:04
detached. 00:16:08
With what they're doing, they're combining it into one and so they're eliminating two single family structures. So they'll just 00:16:12
have one single family structure and then the permitted accessory structure that could go with that. 00:16:18
That house that's on the front side is not there anymore, so there's not. 00:16:25
Primary. 00:16:31
Use so it will all be one lot. 00:16:32
One house, 1 accessory structure. 00:16:34
Or one accessory dwelling unit if they were going to do that. But we don't have any permits for an accessory dwelling unit. OK, 00:16:38
but they couldn't put the Adu on the. 00:16:42
On the lot that's already been bulldozed. 00:16:47
No, they can't, because they're creating one big lot, right? 00:16:50
And I drove past this place today. They. 00:16:55
They're constructing, they're working on the House itself. 00:16:58
The larger, bigger home. 00:17:03
Well, the only one that's still there, they do have, yeah, they do have a lot of landscaping and flat work they're doing on that. 00:17:05
Yeah. 00:17:11
Yeah. 00:17:15
Yeah, it looked like they were working on a deck or something. 00:17:16
Sighting and things were. 00:17:19
Off but. 00:17:21
Go go them. 00:17:23
If you have the means. 00:17:26
Just say I love holiday, all right? Any other questions around Eastwood? 00:17:32
Just I mean. 00:17:37
Technically they could build an Adu on this part, but. 00:17:38
They just put in a sport court, so would it. 00:17:42
Would it have the setbacks? 00:17:45
I mean, could they actually do it without? 00:17:48
Bulldozing that they just built. 00:17:50
We've already. 00:17:55
Well, the house. But then they like built this thingy there, right? 00:17:56
Now they've got a sport court and pickable. 00:18:00
Well, they'd have to go through the permit process if they wanted to build anything else there. I'm just wondering if this even 00:18:03
allow them to even ask. 00:18:06
Ask the question unless they got some sort of waiver. 00:18:09
I don't think an Adu has ever been proposed. 00:18:14
For them. 00:18:17
But there's still the setbacks would still apply. 00:18:20
I don't know what. 00:18:22
Specifically where they would locate it. 00:18:23
There wouldn't be a distance. 00:18:26
Separation between the pickleball court, but it definitely from the new property lines. 00:18:28
Cool all right, did we want to circle back to anything on the the lighting and get a little pre work done before the? 00:18:35
Item itself in the public hearing. 00:18:43
Are we all intimidated? 00:18:49
I agree. I'm excited. 00:18:55
I can't wait to learn a lot about lighting. 00:18:57
You said this before, but. 00:19:01
Maybe I missed it I think. 00:19:03
This was. 00:19:06
Sort of instigated because of neighbor to neighbor. 00:19:09
Conflict, but it sounds like the principles are. 00:19:12
General principles that other cities are using. 00:19:15
Is that true? 00:19:17
Yeah, they're generally. 00:19:19
So the concern was. 00:19:21
On Walker Lane there was quite a big large property on the corner of Cottonwood and Walker. 00:19:24
That had been subdivided. 00:19:29
Several years ago. 00:19:31
Those lots. 00:19:33
Was, I think there were probably 3 acres in there and now there's two homes. 00:19:35
So now that the homes are finished and all the lighting treatments have gone in, it's dramatic difference. 00:19:40
From what was there previously. 00:19:46
Especially. 00:19:48
The way that. 00:19:50
I call them wall washers, washers lights that go from the soffit down or from the ground up to wash the building. 00:19:52
The color that they picked. 00:20:01
Based upon reflecting of white stucco. 00:20:03
Is dramatic. 00:20:05
And it's created concern, especially with some lights that they've had on the gates. 00:20:08
So yeah. 00:20:14
I think a majority when we see issues like this. 00:20:16
It's the color of the light that's being used, especially now the LED technology is so prevalent. 00:20:20
In those really blue to white hue spectrums of color. 00:20:26
Rather than the old. 00:20:30
Incandescent bulbs, they're sort of yellowish in tone. 00:20:32
Whenever there's a change in that type of light fixture, it creates. 00:20:36
It's an intensity of light that's very different. 00:20:40
But yeah, most of the elements in this section are. 00:20:46
Very light on the type of standard that it is for. 00:20:51
Light on for a residential property. 00:20:54
A lot of cities are actually going into the realm of. 00:20:59
Getting closer to Dark Sky compliance. 00:21:03
And usually those cities are nearby state parks or national parks or very large BLM land where dark sky elements are. 00:21:05
Very important. 00:21:14
But in urban areas, most of the city's regulations are more. 00:21:17
Focused on the color and the use and the intensity of the light. 00:21:21
So that it doesn't create a glare or a nuisance situation. 00:21:24
Especially for traffic. 00:21:28
But we have had. 00:21:31
Over the years at. 00:21:33
Four to five complaints a year. 00:21:34
Neighbors that have installed, you know, a security light that goes off and it never could. 00:21:37
Turns on, but never turns off. 00:21:41
And it's directed into. 00:21:43
Bedroom windows, that type of thing. 00:21:45
But generally we've been able to work with our code enforcement officer. 00:21:48
You come up with a civil solution to redirect. 00:21:52
Those those light fixtures in a way that's. 00:21:55
Amenable to both neighbors. 00:21:58
This just helps that situation I guess I would say. 00:22:01
Yeah, with this, would this code have addressed all of the situations? 00:22:05
Will this address what you brought up? The wall washing where you have directive lights pointed at your house but there's so much 00:22:10
reflective glare coming off that it's bouncing in? Because the way I read it, it seemed like it was. 00:22:16
Specifically about the fixture and the housing around the fixture and not the actual. 00:22:22
Whatever you would call it, light glare or reflective, yeah, aluminum is coming off your property. 00:22:27
Or something. Yeah. 00:22:31
Council is more interested in. 00:22:33
Having a definition of light trespass. 00:22:35
Rather than trying to figure out, we came up with a way there is a way to calculate. 00:22:38
Reflected light. 00:22:44
And. 00:22:46
That became just too onerous to enforce. 00:22:48
Because you need to have a light meter, and you'd have to determine the ambient light and a difference thereof. 00:22:51
And it was. It would be too complicated. 00:22:56
So it's shielding the light like these would have fully like an esophageal light situation. 00:22:59
Fully recessed up into the soffit itself and then. 00:23:04
While washing down. 00:23:08
Rather than having the. 00:23:10
Filament and exposed in the air and light trespassing across the property. 00:23:11
This code does that to extent. 00:23:18
It's not as onerous, but it's just still does it in a way. So the wall washing will continue, it'll still happen, just in a 00:23:22
different. 00:23:26
Color spectrum. 00:23:30
It just won't be flashing pink neon Adam. 00:23:33
That yellowish tone is a little bit different when it's used rather than the bluish. 00:23:36
White light. 00:23:40
And just on that note, I have this. 00:23:44
One of my favorite photos I was telling Dennis about. 00:23:46
Right here. 00:23:51
There's a dramatic difference in the use of soffit lighting for security lighting in this top element. 00:23:52
Rather than having so much. 00:23:58
That it just completely illuminates the home. 00:24:01
You can see the difference between the street light, the color of the street lights and. 00:24:04
What they've picked as a spectrum of color in their security and decorative. 00:24:07
Very celestial. 00:24:16
There's a ton of definitional stuff in here that came from somewhere. Is there a way to? 00:24:18
Adopt that by reference, so that we. 00:24:24
Don't have to amend it every time. 00:24:27
The source document changes. 00:24:29
And I it's from. 00:24:32
I'll find it and I'll let you know what that is. 00:24:34
There is a standard in here that. 00:24:37
That sort of regulates that type of use. 00:24:39
I think it was. 00:24:42
Those things tend to change overtime. 00:24:45
It becomes somewhat burdensome for us every year to. 00:24:48
See if the code changed and then. 00:24:52
Amended. Yeah, right here. 00:24:54
Illuminating Engineering Society of the ANSI standard. So it's an ANSI standard that they create these. 00:24:56
These sort of generalized. 00:25:02
Definitions. 00:25:04
So if they update that, then it would and there's a couple places in here, a number of places where it says them. 00:25:08
11:00 in writing and 10:00 in parentheses. 00:25:15
Is that still because? 00:25:19
That was an open question or it just had No, I think we originally proposed it. 00:25:21
11 but then I. 00:25:25
I was reminded that our noise ordinance ends at 10, so they should coincide. 00:25:27
OK, that's the intent. I agree that 10:00 is the best. 00:25:32
Types of changes we'll have to go through on this time. 00:25:36
All right, but we are at top of the hour here and I think a couple of commissioners would like a. 00:25:39
Break. So with that, we'll just end the working session and just allow a quick minute before we start the official. 00:25:45
Meeting umm. 00:25:53
With that, I'm going to mute my mic. 00:25:55
Which should probably be a good idea. 00:26:04
And goal is to teach. 00:26:28
OK, I'm here. It's really nice to see you. It's good to see you too. 00:26:34
So has the study started? 00:26:43
It has. 00:26:44
Has. 00:26:46
Things are a little crazy, but good. 00:26:48
Crazy because you're having to go to. 00:26:54
California lot of appointments just. 00:26:58
Yep, that's progress. It is progress. 00:27:02
That's very good benefits. 00:27:14
And how is she feeling? 00:27:17
Not great. 00:27:22
We. 00:27:24
MRI. 00:27:26
I sweetened to check. 00:27:29
Tumor size and for new growth. 00:27:34
All members of. 00:27:37
And no new growth. 00:27:38
The tumor has stayed essentially the same size, but. 00:27:40
There now appears there's. 00:27:44
So interesting how they track things and how they find things. So even though the tumor is. 00:27:47
The same size it has infiltrated into tissue. 00:27:53
Do these sort of? 00:27:58
So. 00:27:59
Make people drive more like the same size when you look at it, but it's going into. 00:28:01
That's a very good SO. 00:28:08
Yeah, it's not a good thing. 00:28:10
Before that. 00:28:13
Not a real great sign. 00:28:15
Basically the idea is she just so like in the last. 00:28:19
Show your. 00:28:25
Two weeks. 00:28:26
Her seizure activity has increased, so she's having more seizures. 00:28:27
Like last night we had a weird. 00:28:33
Episode where? 00:28:36
Like all of a sudden she couldn't like catch her breath. 00:28:39
And everything kind of wet. 00:28:43
Kind of blacked out a little bit, like it just went fuzzy. 00:28:45
And her. 00:28:51
Like tingling, that's exciting. And that lasted the first decade of my career. Get 30 minutes. 00:28:52
This little alarming for her. 00:29:00
Just not. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. 00:29:03
I did a presentation to you last year. Yeah, yeah, we're at the Transportation Research. 00:29:08
It does. It's tough. It's not a fun situation that we're trying to develop some models. 00:29:19
We're hanging in here. 00:29:25
Engineers would be able to measure real time. 00:29:27
When we say impacts, we're talking about all we can do. 00:29:31
So we're trying to dwell. 00:29:38
Available for like. 00:29:44
Ordinary. 00:29:45
No. 00:29:50
You know what various like when her headaches are going back, she gets severe migraines and. 00:29:52
Sometimes we'll use ice. 00:30:01
You know, for that, just to keep her mind like so the focus goes somewhere else. 00:30:03
So there's some things like that. 00:30:10
Get her through it. Take a deep breath. 00:30:17
The size of the people. 00:30:23
She does. She takes medication for the migraines. 00:30:26
But it's not real effective. 00:30:30
With the migrants comes a lot of nausea. 00:30:34
That medication really doesn't work too well. 00:30:39
So. 00:30:43
Yes. 00:30:45
Yeah, that's exactly. 00:30:50
She's she's a trooper. 00:30:59
You're doing angiogram next week. 00:31:03
They're going up. 00:31:08
Into her brain to check. 00:31:09
Integrals, pressure and venous flow. 00:31:12
They're keeping your weight for that. 00:31:18
So I think she got a lot of anxiety over that right now. 00:31:21
And get through that. 00:31:26
I know that. 00:31:31
I don't know. 00:31:32
Really. Don't. She shouldn't, I don't think. 00:31:35
So this year they ran legislation. 00:31:41
Yeah. 00:31:43
You know they have to throw it up, so they go in through the here we go, everybody ready to get to. 00:31:46
After a short break here. 00:31:52
John, let us know. We good. 00:31:56
All right, here we go. 00:31:57
All right, so welcome to the City of Holiday Planning Commission meeting. It is 6:06 PM and we have all but Commissioner Barrett 00:31:59
with us present. City staff and council are present. 00:32:05
Two items on the agenda. 00:32:11
We have an eastward subdivision amendment that we had talked about moving up. However, I don't see an applicant here. 00:32:14
So what we'll do is we'll just roll into the text amendment. I'm going to omit the opening statement because we have no members of 00:32:21
the public with us tonight. 00:32:25
And, umm. 00:32:29
As far as the text amendment, we're going to put a hard stop on the discussion somewhere right around 636, if everyone's 00:32:31
comfortable with that, since we are most likely going to continue this. 00:32:36
Item into a future meeting? Was anyone opposed to that? Any concerns? 00:32:42
All right, so we'll start that timer of 30 minutes and we can just roll right into what we were talking about. 00:32:46
At the end of the work session starting now, so. 00:32:52
With that, we'll turn it over to Mr. Tierlink. 00:32:56
Did you? And I meant the agenda to oh, you're flipping. I'm not flipping. We're just going to roll with it stink. We can keep it 00:33:00
the same. 00:33:03
Right. 00:33:06
Got it. 00:33:09
Thank you SO. 00:33:11
I'm going to stay at this desk so that I can go through these slides as efficiently as possible. 00:33:12
As I mentioned in the work session the City Council has directed staff to. 00:33:19
Draft A. 00:33:24
Amendment to. 00:33:26
Existing holiday lighting ordinances for both commercial and then adding in. 00:33:28
Residential. 00:33:32
Lighting standards. 00:33:33
Specifically, there is a planning committee or the City Council. 00:33:35
Meetings. 00:33:39
Some elements were proposed. 00:33:40
Based upon some concerns that some citizens raised in residential neighborhoods as far as. 00:33:43
Nuisance lighting glare. 00:33:49
Especially around traffic. 00:33:51
Backyards and that sort of. 00:33:53
Sort of concern. 00:33:55
Specifically as they relate to only residential property. 00:33:57
They do. 00:34:01
Enjoy the commercial. 00:34:03
Lighting standards that have been created for Holiday Village Zone. 00:34:05
I think they are a prime example as to how well lighting can. 00:34:08
Be handled as far as commercial retail situation is concerned. 00:34:12
If you go through the village in the evening, you'll see that there's definitely a. 00:34:17
A sense of color use. 00:34:22
Pedestrian. 00:34:24
Scale and the use of lighting that is purposeful rather than just. 00:34:25
Blatantly just illuminating walls. 00:34:31
Features in any type of parking lots that for that matter. 00:34:34
So some of those elements were asked to be brought into. 00:34:38
The residential side. 00:34:42
This presentation that was given to the City Council just gives an overview of what the actual concerns that the community is 00:34:44
interested in. 00:34:49
As far as what light pollution is. 00:34:53
The indiscriminate use of lighting, I mean, it really just comes down to that. 00:34:56
Some of the considerations that. 00:35:02
Can be that can address this type of concern or? 00:35:05
Fixtures that require full shielding. 00:35:09
Soffit locations and the height of how high the soffit. 00:35:12
Lights can be. 00:35:16
And limiting the number of yard types of. 00:35:18
Types of lightings in yards. 00:35:20
And having a direction. 00:35:22
Of that fixture in the useful. 00:35:24
Area of light. So for example if you had a pool or sport court, that type of thing. 00:35:29
To consider a lumens level. 00:35:34
And a spectrum color. 00:35:36
The Kelvin scale is what we'll be talking about a lot. 00:35:39
If you don't happen to know what that is, that's basically just when you go to Home Depot. You see all those that spectrum of 00:35:43
color that you can pick from. 00:35:47
The warm daylight to the cooler. 00:35:50
White, blue colors. 00:35:55
Specifically, council was interested in light trespass and glare. 00:35:58
Not necessarily sky glow. We live in an urban area, it's hard to get around out from underneath. 00:36:02
Sky glow issues, especially when you have Salt Lake City so nearby. 00:36:09
We can, sort of. 00:36:15
Try to do our part. 00:36:17
But it really is not going to go away. 00:36:18
You go up into the canyons, you're going to see it. 00:36:20
But. 00:36:23
At a smaller scale. 00:36:24
Or property line concerned glare and light trespass was something that the council is interested in looking at. 00:36:25
I like the 15th. Yeah, this slide here. 00:36:34
#15. 00:36:36
I think that one is the best example in your whole deck. 00:36:38
Yeah, so. 00:36:41
You can achieve the same effects from your lighting standards just by the type of fixture you choose. 00:36:42
The top example creates multitude of problems, glare, light trespass and even contributes to sky glow. 00:36:51
And the lower element gives. 00:36:58
It doesn't. 00:37:00
Cast that broad light out into this parking lot. But at least at the doors, entrance areas, areas that are private, it does give. 00:37:01
The purposeful use of that light itself, without having to. 00:37:09
Indiscriminately. 00:37:14
Project that light everywhere. 00:37:15
So these elements of when we say we're going to talk about fully shielded fixtures, this is what essentially what we're getting 00:37:18
at. 00:37:21
So mainly we have a couple of council members who are very concerned about security and securing our their own your own property. 00:37:26
With lighting. 00:37:35
There is a way that through the ordinance they can be handled through. 00:37:37
The shielding elements. 00:37:42
Full cut off hood. 00:37:44
And in fact, our code enforcement officer before Chad. 00:37:46
More In Dallas shared this image with us. 00:37:50
He specializes in what something that's called septed, which is crime prevention through environmental design. 00:37:54
And when you have light fixtures which are unshielded like this, it actually creates more of a. 00:38:01
Something that has so much glare in the perceived glare in your own eyes. 00:38:07
You're missing what's going on behind. 00:38:13
Property. 00:38:15
So in order to cut off and use that light properly. 00:38:16
You're able to actually. 00:38:20
Create better security essentially is what the concern is. 00:38:22
I felt like this image was slightly misleading though because he's holding his hand up to block him but. 00:38:25
There's nothing blocking the light shooting at the guy, so if you had a fully shielded light you actually wouldn't see him. That 00:38:31
highly illuminated profile by the fence but. 00:38:36
From a police officer's point of view, if they're going into a situation like this and they have a light, that's just. 00:38:42
Blasting right into their eyes, they're not going to be able to see much that's behind it, and that makes sense. 00:38:48
So specifically to create a distinction between security and safety and decorative and seasonal, I mean, that's that. 00:38:56
Difference is what the Council is more interested in not preventing. 00:39:03
The use of either one. 00:39:07
But creating some parameters to sort of soften the intensity of how those lights are used. 00:39:10
So in this, obviously in this example, we have some security lighting that's being installed. 00:39:17
But also with some decorative and seasonal lighting, especially when you have. 00:39:22
Then more becoming more popular the permanent seasonal Christmas lights. 00:39:26
It can be used year round. 00:39:30
My neighbor just put theirs up. 00:39:33
And now they have flashing green for. 00:39:36
Saint Patrick's Day, which is fantastic. It's fun. 00:39:39
For them. 00:39:42
But that's not something that the Council was. 00:39:45
Right now is concerned about. 00:39:48
We've had a couple of complaints from the neighborhood that has these lights that go all the way around. 00:39:50
Rather than just in the front where you would normally see them. 00:39:58
The complaint basically was well, we had, we've had to have back dark, dark backyards at some point. Now I have. 00:40:02
24/7 these lights that are all the way around the house. 00:40:08
For everything from 4th of July to Super Bowl to Christmas parties. 00:40:12
Luckily we were able to work with that property owner and with these, they're so programmable, they just shut off that back 00:40:18
section. 00:40:21
It's a very simple conclusion. 00:40:26
And the Council was not really interested in. 00:40:29
Eliminating the. 00:40:32
The right to have soffit decorative lighting like in this top image shows. 00:40:35
But be able to regulate it in a way that doesn't have an overabundance of the use of the color that would create an issue with the 00:40:41
neighborhood. 00:40:45
Sport courts is something that we already regulate in our code. 00:40:53
We have added some additional provisions to strengthen those elements. 00:40:56
Lowering the the light standard pole itself, bringing it down closer to the Perry of play. 00:41:01
It was something in particular that we're interested in. 00:41:07
This photo is actually a. 00:41:10
Image from our code enforcement case file. 00:41:12
So the use of. 00:41:15
Sport court lighting that's left on all night long. 00:41:17
Especially as it reflects into people's homes is a concern, especially when we're talking about. 00:41:20
Did I have an image in here of the? 00:41:28
The health effects of. 00:41:31
Of lighting at night. 00:41:33
Yeah. So we have there's. 00:41:37
White papers out there talking about the health regulations and. 00:41:41
How it affects our sleep patterns, especially as humans but also in nature as well. 00:41:45
So John, if I can just clarify, there's as far as the text goes, there's not. 00:41:51
Something that delineates the code being different by zone. 00:41:56
Right, it's going to just be blanket if you're residential, this is the code. 00:42:02
Residential uses R1R2 and. 00:42:08
And then everything else essentially is how it's. 00:42:11
Organized. 00:42:15
So these are some examples of some code considerations. 00:42:19
One of the elements that I think was extremely. 00:42:23
Disheartening as I was researching this. 00:42:27
Is if you were to go to. 00:42:30
Home Depot or Lowe's? 00:42:31
You're not likely going to find. 00:42:34
A fixture that will meet these standards. 00:42:36
In this whole wall, and there was this one here that's circled that might meet. 00:42:38
A fully cut off hooded. 00:42:43
Picture itself so. 00:42:46
Enforcement is going to be difficult. 00:42:48
And for property owners for myself to find something that complies if I have an addition or a construction of a home. 00:42:50
I might have to have a. 00:42:57
A custom order from a website or something? 00:43:01
Be able to find it locally. 00:43:03
Would it be? 00:43:07
Permissible for the city to work with. 00:43:08
Local vendors such as like the ACE. 00:43:11
Hardware's that are. 00:43:14
Located within the city and approach them and say hey, we can send you customers for this specific product. 00:43:16
Yeah. I mean, if we're reaching out and mentioning that there's efforts, especially as far as our grassroots concerned. 00:43:22
Neighborhoods can go out and ask for certain elements to be. 00:43:30
Provided as stock. 00:43:33
Some fixtures actually have this dark sky approved logo on their. 00:43:36
Boxes. 00:43:40
I couldn't find one when I went to Lowe's. 00:43:42
But I'm sure if that was, you know, something that was asked. 00:43:47
To stock. I'm sure they could. I don't know if the city could actually come out and ask for that, but. 00:43:50
At least from the neighborhood for sure. 00:43:55
And the other element was. 00:44:00
Most municipalities when they're requiring a review of compliance. 00:44:03
What are they submitting this to the city so that justice and carry? 00:44:07
Can look at a set of plans and say yes this complies with the code. 00:44:12
One of those elements is a lighting plan, so similar to a landscaping plan or a tree removal replacement plan or site plan. 00:44:16
With this code, they're going to be required if you were to build an addition to your house or build a new home. 00:44:24
To prepare a lighting plan. 00:44:30
Most cities require that plan to be prepared by a specialist. 00:44:33
The Council was a little uncomfortable with that, so we withdrew that that that requirement. 00:44:39
So if you knew that with the standards in the code, you could come up with some fixtures that would you believe would comply and 00:44:44
we would just verify. 00:44:48
If we got into the commercial side forever, if we're bringing something to you to review for a lighting plan. 00:44:52
The requirement to having them prepared by professionals is still there. 00:44:58
You're going to need that that level of expertise. 00:45:02
When you're looking at that larger scale. 00:45:06
So locations, illustrations, cut sheets, you know. 00:45:10
Printouts of websites is something that we want to take a look at. 00:45:13
To help review. 00:45:17
Another element was some cities. 00:45:21
Other require you to turn things on and off 30 days before, 30 days after. 00:45:23
Holiday The City Council is not really interested in that at all. 00:45:28
Excuse me? 00:45:32
How do we? 00:45:33
Make sure that. 00:45:35
Lighting plan. 00:45:37
Shows evidence of complying lighting fixtures if they can't find complying lighting fixtures. 00:45:38
That's what I'm saying. These are some of the elements that are difficult in this code for both the city as a regulatory body and 00:45:46
a property owner. 00:45:50
Yes. So how do you get beyond that? 00:45:55
They'll have to go out to the web and find something and have it custom ordered. 00:45:58
Or they could just take some there's this this product by Reynolds called Tinfoil that you can just kind of. 00:46:04
Wrap up around those fixtures and. 00:46:11
Problem solved. I don't know how aesthetic it is, but. 00:46:14
External. 00:46:17
Yes. 00:46:21
All new construction. 00:46:22
Yeah, when you reviewed external ad us you immediately. 00:46:25
Geared yourself toward. 00:46:30
Dark Sky compliant fixtures. 00:46:31
That was that was already something that you put in there. 00:46:33
Dark sky and this is. 00:46:36
Completely different but. 00:46:38
Some of the elements of fully cut off hoods in the dark sky elements is something that they look for anyway. 00:46:39
Yeah, I following up on that. I would, I would be. 00:46:47
We have to be realistic. 00:46:54
If there isn't product out here. 00:46:56
Six month delivery. 00:47:04
Yeah. 00:47:09
Or there's a lot of stuff on Amazon. 00:47:10
I think it's reasonable to say just because I can't find it at our local lows. 00:47:14
Everyone uses Amazon. That's reason to believe it's out there. 00:47:18
Yeah, here, here, here. Pages and pages of it. 00:47:21
So I don't think it's saying it doesn't exist. 00:47:25
And I think saying it's online available, they don't have to be custom made. 00:47:28
I mean, so I think that's a reasonable thing to do. 00:47:33
There is administrative relief built into the code. 00:47:38
That says I can't find something that is meets this standard, but there is this other product. 00:47:42
So they can propose that. 00:47:48
As a way to still meet the ordinance. 00:47:50
Because. 00:47:53
Technology changes. 00:47:54
We can't write an ordinance that stays the same for. 00:47:56
Five years. 00:47:59
Is there anything in the? 00:48:01
Draft of this that gives consideration to setbacks as far as. 00:48:03
Placement of lighting on a property. For example, if I. 00:48:08
Wanted to put in an Adu or. 00:48:12
******** or whatever. 00:48:15
Could I literally like 2 feet from the corner of the fence as long as it's pointing down even though it's illuminating? 00:48:17
Everything in my neighbor's backyard right there. 00:48:24
As long as. 00:48:27
If your neighbor. 00:48:28
Calls you in and our code enforcement officer using the definition of light trespass that's in the code. 00:48:31
Can determine that you're compliant. 00:48:37
There really isn't light. 00:48:39
Trespassing across the property line. 00:48:41
Yeah, you can put it right on the property line. 00:48:43
What they wanted to get away from is allowing property owners to. 00:48:47
Place lights on fence posts to Shinedown to illuminate fence panels at certain distances. 00:48:51
So the element of the light is fully cut off and it's not shining across the property line and it's directed down. You can still 00:48:58
do that right on a property line. 00:49:01
So even if it's illuminating the fence and now I can see my. 00:49:05
Neighbors fence all the way across because it's illuminated as long as the light is staying on their side of the property line. 00:49:09
They're good. 00:49:15
Some of these things you just have to see it. 00:49:18
Yeah, I just, I didn't know if there was anything in the text that actually prevented lighting is different. 00:49:20
So soffit lighting. They limit it to a maximum of 20 feet. 00:49:26
Above the grade. 00:49:30
So some of these pitches are pretty tall. When you get up into 32 and 35 feet, you have soffit lights that run the entire 00:49:31
ridgeline. 00:49:35
So soffit lights are limited to 20. 00:49:40
And sport court lighting was brought down. 00:49:43
To a height of 12 I think. 00:49:46
Feet high that we brought that sport court lighting down. 00:49:48
As far as height. 00:49:52
What was it before? I didn't see. I think it was 18 feet. 00:49:56
Yeah. 00:49:59
18. 00:50:01
That when we started seeing those light fixtures in practice. 00:50:03
I mean, that's as high as a parking lot. 00:50:08
Light. 00:50:10
Other than that, I mean that's the extent of what this so short. 00:50:15
Color photo presentation was. 00:50:19
I think it might be. 00:50:22
Beneficial Just to help you understand that now there is a residential section. 00:50:24
Which covers the R1 and R2. 00:50:30
Zones. 00:50:32
And then there's also now a commercial. 00:50:35
Or all other zone lighting standards. 00:50:38
We have written in here. 00:50:42
You are in the RMU zone. Refer to the RMU zone for the lighting code. 00:50:44
If you're in the HV zone, refer to that section. 00:50:49
Otherwise. 00:50:52
All those other zones will be moved will be basically struck and referred back to this section. 00:50:53
So the R1. 00:51:02
Two in order to OK. 00:51:04
Yeah. 00:51:06
Therefore, the reason why I think it would be really great if you have the Planning Commission can read through this, have that 00:51:16
you have the opportunity to read through it and fully digest it and then. 00:51:20
At your next meeting, we can readdress any comments and concerns you can have. 00:51:24
John, do you have any sense of how many other? 00:51:30
Cities in the county. 00:51:32
Have similar. 00:51:35
Code yeah. 00:51:36
Um, did I put it in your staff report? 00:51:40
We did that study for the Council just. 00:51:43
Just to kind of get an idea where they're. 00:51:46
Where they were. 00:51:48
Maybe I didn't put it in there. 00:51:54
Yeah, we're the only one. 00:51:59
Do you other people not fight about this or? 00:52:02
Are we just being more? I think we're just generally for the past 20 years, we've been good neighbors. 00:52:05
Thank you. I'm on the. 00:52:09
Parent Advisory Committee for the building over rebuilding over at Skyline. 00:52:13
And we have been dealing with neighbor issues and lights, pathway lights. 00:52:17
Lights from the fields for years and so it's. 00:52:24
You know, they've had people out there with light meters and, you know, light engineers and the whole 9 yards, so. 00:52:29
It really does get contentious, and so I think we're lucky that it hasn't. 00:52:35
Risen to that level. 00:52:40
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about something that really invades your own. 00:52:42
Private property, especially when it comes into your own home. 00:52:46
It's concerning and our code enforcement officers take it very seriously. 00:52:50
It is a health issue. It's a nuisance problem. 00:52:56
So they. 00:52:59
Their bedside manner is very courteous when they start addressing the neighbors as far as. 00:53:01
Helping you understand what? 00:53:06
What's going on and what the concern is? 00:53:07
If it's just retribution, it's hard to deal. 00:53:10
That we have neighbors fighting each other and it happens. 00:53:12
You know one neighbor buys some certain type of. 00:53:16
Type of light or a basketball. 00:53:19
You see the basketball standards with the light that's like 10 feet above it. 00:53:22
And then the neighbor shows up with another spotlight that just. 00:53:26
She would sit at each other. 00:53:30
This I think might address that. Not to say that the problem isn't there. 00:53:32
I think we definitely have been. Holiday has been great neighbors with each other. 00:53:36
I hate to say that it's a situation that many neighbors would just have to deal with. I don't think your health regulation is or 00:53:41
concern is something you have to just deal with. 00:53:45
So I think there is a way. 00:53:50
To create some regulation in our single family zones that are similar. 00:53:53
That just create. 00:53:57
A level of courtesy. 00:53:59
And if it's not there? 00:54:02
The code is there so the code enforcement officer can point to it and say. 00:54:04
Count the city in general has looked at because. 00:54:08
Concerns and now has created a standard. 00:54:10
And this is what the expectation is for new construction. 00:54:13
If you have an element a fixture, that's already out of compliance as long as you're not changing the fixture. 00:54:17
Or you're not building an addition onto the house. 00:54:23
The light bulb can be changed. 00:54:26
Anything can happen with that, up to. 00:54:29
I think we put 300 lumens in there. 00:54:31
Which I tried that out I went and bought a 300 lumen bulb and put it in my yard light. 00:54:34
That's bright. 00:54:40
It's LED. 00:54:41
It's that really cool Edison looking element that's on the inside. It looks kind of like an incandescent bulb. 00:54:43
It's supposed to be on like the 5000 warmer level. 00:54:50
But it turned out to be a really bright. 00:54:55
Yard light. 00:54:57
It was only at 303 hundred lumen. 00:54:58
Equivalent. 00:55:03
LED. Yeah, yeah. 00:55:03
OK, so this is a little off the. 00:55:06
Path of this, but I'm just curious if the city does adopt and. 00:55:10
Put into enforce these. 00:55:15
The text amendment around lighting. 00:55:18
Does the city have a plan for all the? 00:55:21
Legal nonconforming St. lamps that are not fully enclosed. As far as replacing those and upgrading. 00:55:24
Well, we'd have to. 00:55:32
We had to come compliance our own code. 00:55:34
And that was a problem, you know, we had, I think it was about 10 years ago or so. 00:55:36
We had a really great grant from the the county. 00:55:42
Upgraded all our metal halide. 00:55:45
Streetlights to. 00:55:47
And at the time, I don't think we everyone realized the color of that LED light that it gives off. 00:55:50
Super efficient, but that white bluish light is not conducive to. 00:55:55
Both pedestrians or street traffic. 00:56:00
And it reflects. 00:56:03
Quite a bit. So no, we would have to come back. 00:56:04
With our own standards. 00:56:07
Just curious on that. Thank you. 00:56:11
Umm, what other questions do we have on this? 00:56:14
We're super excited to talk about lights some more in the next meeting. 00:56:20
I think so. Going forward, if you have comments, e-mail them to us. 00:56:26
And then we can sort of condense them all. 00:56:32
Into a packet so we can. 00:56:35
Go through them. 00:56:37
Efficiently as possible. 00:56:38
I think that might be more helpful than trying to have an open discussion. 00:56:40
So red line this up however you'd like to do it, either with a pen or. 00:56:45
Through word processing and send them send their comments over to us. 00:56:49
If I could request for the next meeting, would it be possible for staff to? 00:56:53
Generate two or three examples of what? 00:56:59
Applicants would be asked to do with lighting plans. 00:57:03
Just so. 00:57:08
We know kind of what the future would look like if this was in force today. 00:57:09
What are some of the things that. 00:57:15
Staff would be looking for and. 00:57:16
How does that get measured? How does that get rejected? That sort of thing? 00:57:19
I think in here. 00:57:24
Just as we're now that we're on the topic. 00:57:26
There's a section that talks about what is actually required in the lighting plan itself. 00:57:30
OK, so site plan submitter requirements. 00:57:43
So you're not in the commercial or multifamily section, but in the residential. The list is pretty small. 00:57:47
Location of all light fixtures proposed and already existing. 00:57:53
And a description of each lamp. 00:57:57
Fixture with support and Shield. 00:57:59
With manufacturer cut sheets. 00:58:02
As far as the details of their use so. 00:58:05
If you found the Amazon. 00:58:07
Product you're interested in? 00:58:10
If they submitted that with the site plan and the location where it's being used, similar to a tree planting plan. 00:58:12
What the tree is, where it's going to go. 00:58:18
Was what we're interested in looking at. 00:58:20
And that's it. 00:58:23
From there we'll. 00:58:26
Have to rely on. 00:58:27
Justice's keen insight on lighting engineering. 00:58:29
Determined of compliance on that. 00:58:33
Fair enough. And I noticed on the times on there I was just curious so. 00:58:36
As far as like the time restrictions that are listed in there? 00:58:41
For various. 00:58:46
Code reasons. 00:58:47
Does that take into account? 00:58:49
The movement of the sun and daylight savings because like. 00:58:52
For me, I just I find it kind of silly to restrict lights. 00:58:56
You know. 00:59:00
10:00 if the sun's still shining type of thing. 00:59:01
No, it just follows the noise ordinance. 00:59:05
We could, I mean, we could look at it that in that depth, absolutely. 00:59:09
Yeah, like if the sun S up like it's OK, you know what I mean? If you want to waste the power at desk. 00:59:13
No, we can definitely look at that. 00:59:22
OK, umm. 00:59:23
Well, this is Commissioner Prince. I would like to make a motion at this point. 00:59:24
I motion that we continue the proposed outdoor lighting standards amendment to our next regularly scheduled meeting. Oh, before 00:59:29
you make that motion. 00:59:33
I do need to open the public hearing for this. 00:59:38
Seeing how we have no members of public here to make a comment. 00:59:41
Now I can motion. 00:59:46
Right, Jamie, yes. Do you intend with your motion to continue the public hearing and the item? 00:59:50
Yes, I would like to do to avoid having to re notice the public hearing you'll want to. 00:59:56
Note a specific date when you'll take it up again. 01:00:02
I think it's April first is our next meeting. 01:00:07
Question mark. 01:00:11
Just kidding. Not kidding. Yes, April first. 01:00:12
OK. So I motion that we will continue this to the April first meeting. 01:00:15
Thank you. 01:00:23
Motion, Do we have a second? 01:00:24
Commissioner gone. Commissioner flaunt. Both seconded simultaneously. All right. With that, we'll call for a vote. Commissioner 01:00:26
Cunningham. 01:00:29
Commissioner Belchinski, Aye. Commissioner Vaughn aye. Commissioner Prince Aye. Mr. Gone aye. 01:00:33
And Chair Roach votes aye so that unanimously will stay open. 01:00:37
All right. Thank you very much. And with that, I don't see an applicant here, but we will go ahead with the. 01:00:42
East winds subdivision unless we need the applicant here. Do they need to be here for this application? 01:00:48
It's courteous, but no. 01:00:54
Courteous but shoulder shrug says OK, go ahead. So with that, we'll roll forward. It's on the agenda. They paid the money for it. 01:00:55
And which city staff would like to walk us through a quick summary on this? 01:01:02
Good evening. 01:01:16
I'm Justice 24. 01:01:18
Would the city planning department so I'm the staff responsible for. 01:01:20
The East Wind subdivision amendment. 01:01:26
Application. 01:01:29
So the address for this application is 2648 E. 01:01:30
45 S. 01:01:35
45 S. 01:01:37
That property is located within one of the city's R18 zone. 01:01:39
With the applicant seeking to expand the size of their property. 01:01:45
The property is currently within the East Wind Subdivision. 01:01:52
Now as I mentioned early. 01:01:56
On in the discussions. 01:01:59
This subdivision used to be a three lot subdivision. 01:02:02
It was created. 01:02:05
Sometime in 2003. 01:02:07
The subdivision was amended in 2024. 01:02:10
Into a 2 lot subdivision when the owners of. 01:02:14
Lot 1 and Lot 3. 01:02:17
Bought their middle. 01:02:19
Lot which is lot 2 and then split them between themselves. 01:02:21
Now the applicant is proposing to. 01:02:25
Amend the size. 01:02:27
Of his lot which is currently. 01:02:29
Designated as Lot 1A. 01:02:32
In the second. 01:02:34
Version of the subdivision amendment. 01:02:36
Now they're they're proposing this in light of the fact that they they bought the. 01:02:39
Neighboring property. 01:02:44
That fronts on Wonder Lane with the address. 01:02:45
For that property. 01:02:51
Being. 01:02:54
One second, so the address for the one on Wonder Lane. 01:02:57
OK, so that one. 01:03:09
It's 404549 S Wonder Lane. 01:03:16
So when the property owner bought that property is proposing to. 01:03:21
At that or. 01:03:26
Say, incorporate that lot into Lot 1A. 01:03:27
So that's what this application is about. 01:03:31
Staff did an assessment. 01:03:34
From the Technical review Committee. 01:03:36
To check for compliance and basically what. 01:03:39
This applicant is proposing to do is not creating any. 01:03:42
Non compliant situation. 01:03:45
Because they are expanding the absolute size of the lot. 01:03:48
So in terms of lot frontage requirements, minimum lot size requirements. 01:03:52
They comply with all those zoning regulations. 01:03:57
OK. 01:04:03
Do we have any questions for city staff on this? 01:04:05
All right, perfect. And since there's no applicant to invite over and this isn't a public hearing, we can just move to. 01:04:08
Discussion on this item if there is any. 01:04:16
And if everybody feels really great, the reason that we would have. 01:04:20
Right. As far as zoning and you know the things within our purview. 01:04:26
Seems fine. 01:04:31
I mean, we could speculate on all the fun things they're going to do with it. I hear something about pickleball. But. 01:04:32
Yeah, moving the lot lines around and. 01:04:38
Making their. 01:04:40
Two lots, one big one. 01:04:42
I guess TRC signed off on it, staff signed US signed off on it. 01:04:44
Is there a technical definition of what means to maintain a double frontage? 01:04:49
Does that just mean it? 01:04:53
I mean, what's the definition of frontage? 01:04:56
Yeah, there is a definition for double lot frontage. 01:04:59
And really, it's just that. 01:05:03
A lot that has frontage on two public streets. 01:05:05
They put that element, puts them into a separate category so that we can assess certain zoning requirements. 01:05:08
What would be the front yard? 01:05:16
What's a side yard? What's the rear yard? That type of thing, Yeah. 01:05:17
Now they have to have. Do they have to maintain easements on both of those or? 01:05:22
Yeah, there's the one easement in between I think they're looking to vacate, but everything else will have to be. 01:05:27
Rededicated. 01:05:32
I think that's shown in your plat here. 01:05:34
So it would be new easements to go around the. 01:05:37
Outside. 01:05:39
The new. 01:05:41
Well, the amended lot. 01:05:43
We're not creating a new lock. 01:05:46
Or I should say the egress, not the easement. My apologies. So basically do they have to keep the driveway on? 01:05:47
Wander. Not necessarily. I mean similar with. 01:05:53
Double fronting lots. 01:05:58
You can have a driveway off of that other property, especially if you're on a corner. You can have one driveway per St. frontage. 01:06:01
Yes. 01:06:07
All right, well, with that, if anybody is ready to make a motion, unless there's more questions, I'll be happy to try. Hey, look 01:06:10
at that, Mister Cunningham. Go ahead. 01:06:14
This Commissioner Cunningham and I Motion to approve the subdivision plat Amendment application by Mike. 01:06:18
Spainhauer for east wind. 01:06:24
An amendment to the existing Lot 1A within the East Wind subdivision. 01:06:26
Located at 2648 E 4510 S. 01:06:31
In the R118 zone. 01:06:35
Based on the following findings, 1 development details required for subdivision amendment. 01:06:38
Have been submitted and reviewed by the TRC. 01:06:43
To the proposed amendment to the lot complies with the minimum width and area. 01:06:47
For single home development in the R18 zone. 01:06:51
Three, the required submittals for subdivision amendment have been provided where applicable and have been found to be complete 01:06:56
and acceptable. 01:07:00
For fire accesses existing and approved by the USA. 01:07:04
Five public roads and easement utility easements are shown on the plat. 01:07:08
This is Commissioner Prince. I'll second that motion. 01:07:14
All right. We have motion and a second. We'll start down here. Commissioner, gone. 01:07:16
Mr. Prince. 01:07:20
Mr. Floyd? Aye, Mr. Voltinski. 01:07:22
And Commissioner Cunningham aye, and Chair Roche votes aye. So with that it passes unanimously. 01:07:24
For that recommendation so. 01:07:30
That takes us to the end of our agenda and I will make a motion to adjourn. All in favor, aye? 01:07:32
Aye, any opposed? 01:07:39
Done and done, have a great night. 01:07:40
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