Meeting: Planning Commission Appeal Hearing

Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge?

Bookmarks
Transcript
Share
Favorites

Transcript search

Transcript

Event transcript
	Spot yet?	00:00:00
	I'm sorry.	00:00:03
	I just wondering if somebody.	00:00:04
	Filled ginger. See yet?	00:00:06
	Yes.	00:00:09
	And hers is district not at large.	00:00:15
	We're rolling all right.	00:00:42
	Good evening. Welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission, Tuesday, August 12, 2025.	00:00:44
	In attendance we have city staff, council and.	00:00:50
	All commissioners except Commissioner Prince, who sent her regrets.	00:00:55
	And we have one item on the agenda. I do not see any members of the public, so we are going to omit the.	00:00:59
	Statement for the public about the Planning Commission and just roll right in.	00:01:06
	To item the one item we have which is the zone boundary or map interpretation for 6114 S Holiday Blvd. And since we did not have a	00:01:11
	work meeting I am sure we'll probably have a few.	00:01:17
	Questions for staff as we were all on this, but.	00:01:23
	I will turn it over to Steph to get us going.	00:01:26
	And Brad on proceedings on this June is that.	00:01:32
	Normal to have staff presentation for an appeal first.	00:01:36
	There's not really a.	00:01:43
	The exact process on how this is supposed to work.	00:01:45
	I'm not sure if your mics on.	00:01:49
	Sorry, the Planning Commission is acting as the appeal authority.	00:01:51
	Particular matter.	00:01:56
	So we basically have.	00:01:57
	I mean, there can be a presentation, It doesn't have to be a presentation. It could be up to the.	00:02:00
	If the Planning Commission has reviewed the packet.	00:02:04
	Umm has any questions they can ask those if the?	00:02:10
	If the Planning Commission would like a presentation, OK, here's the situation. Here's the issue.	00:02:12
	Give it to you in a nutshell.	00:02:17
	And then?	00:02:18
	You guys can deliberate, you can hear from the appellant and.	00:02:19
	You can make a determination.	00:02:25
	I it is my.	00:02:27
	Understanding this is not very controversial.	00:02:29
	At least.	00:02:32
	From the staff.	00:02:33
	Point of view.	00:02:33
	It's just going through the process that's required under the code.	00:02:35
	OK.	00:02:40
	Well, Commissioner Barrett.	00:02:41
	Yeah, just one.	00:02:44
	Do you know why the city when it incorporated?	00:02:47
	Change this from the county zoning.	00:02:52
	John may be able to speak a little bit more about that. We have to call Paul Allred in or something like probably that means in	00:02:56
	particular.	00:02:59
	Yeah, so.	00:03:03
	For the reason that holiday incorporated from the county primarily was that.	00:03:04
	The zone map at the time for the Community Council was not.	00:03:09
	Agreeable to majority of the residents that are in the area.	00:03:12
	I think the county mapping zoning maps are.	00:03:16
	Allowed for quite a bit more development opportunity.	00:03:20
	And the idea of protecting estate properties was not really established.	00:03:25
	And the two acre zone did that.	00:03:30
	At the time.	00:03:33
	OK.	00:03:36
	And in the packet there was this map that was included of.	00:03:38
	Holiday city zoning, that was.	00:03:44
	In place in 2000.	00:03:46
	Upon incorporation, so that's.	00:03:48
	Or you can see the R187 broken out from R143.	00:03:50
	I don't know if this was the.	00:03:55
	Adopted map.	00:03:58
	And what those boundaries are?	00:04:00
	It looks like they were drawing boundaries for our 187 along.	00:04:02
	Would that be a fault line?	00:04:05
	So there was. There was still some.	00:04:09
	Discussion there.	00:04:11
	That was kind of the.	00:04:14
	History of.	00:04:15
	Where things started at incorporation.	00:04:16
	Yeah, one other question now.	00:04:20
	There the access to the West side of the property.	00:04:23
	Has to go over the Creek.	00:04:27
	Is that right?	00:04:28
	There's no other access way.	00:04:30
	Other than from the east over the Creek to the proper.	00:04:32
	Right for this individual parcel, it is only accessible from Holiday Blvd.	00:04:35
	So do you see any?	00:04:41
	Harm or any kind of.	00:04:42
	Encroachment that changes.	00:04:45
	What's going to happen around it if this goes to the R143?	00:04:47
	The parcel will be involved in a future development and.	00:04:53
	There was just some inconsistency in the zoning. So this is the procedural first.	00:04:57
	Step in addressing that.	00:05:01
	So that they could move forward with.	00:05:04
	Development.	00:05:05
	But do you see?	00:05:07
	You know how you start to encroach in the neighborhoods and it starts to erode kind of the?	00:05:09
	The zoning for that?	00:05:13
	A problem with going.	00:05:16
	So this.	00:05:17
	Not necessarily where it all is.	00:05:22
	Access from.	00:05:24
	Quality Blvd. And it is.	00:05:26
	Predominantly the R143 zone.	00:05:29
	OK, how many? Do we have a rough idea of how many?	00:05:31
	Properties.	00:05:36
	Umm, this impact?	00:05:38
	This is not something that has happened in the history of holiday, right?	00:05:42
	Where someone has appealed a.	00:05:45
	Boundary zone drawn.	00:05:47
	On the map since incorporation.	00:05:49
	Is that right?	00:05:51
	Correct. So do we know how many property because I assume this would kind of set a precedent how many properties this Creek?	00:05:52
	Runs through and how many other parcels potentially or I want to change my zone to this or that because of this?	00:05:59
	Yeah, we do know.	00:06:04
	This is one of four.	00:06:06
	There's only four properties this would impact.	00:06:07
	No, this is only one of four situations where.	00:06:10
	The Creek bisects.	00:06:13
	The rest of the properties are further up on Hillsdale, closer to Cottonwood Lane.	00:06:16
	Or their backyards.	00:06:20
	Of owned property goes across the Creek.	00:06:22
	So it's this and four other properties. Three other properties.	00:06:26
	OK. And everything else, the property line stops at the Creek?	00:06:31
	Yeah, it was definitely intended that everything on the.	00:06:35
	That's accessed by Holiday Blvd.	00:06:38
	Was intended to be 1 acre zoning.	00:06:41
	And is this.	00:06:48
	Is this a year round Creek that runs through there? Is this one that dries out due to water rights in the summer?	00:06:50
	No, this is year round.	00:06:55
	Flow.	00:06:56
	So with that as there would be.	00:06:57
	Army Corps of Engineers.	00:06:59
	Prevention of how you could manipulate or change that Creek run path.	00:07:02
	Well, there would always be an application to modify the.	00:07:10
	The flow rate in the banks of the Creek, but that would be a completely separate permitting process through Army Corps and state	00:07:13
	floodplains.	00:07:17
	Or army.	00:07:22
	Floyd County flood control.	00:07:23
	So it is a situation where.	00:07:25
	Just looking into the crystal ball.	00:07:27
	OK, great. We'll change it to all R143 that parcel owner could say. OK, now I'm going to apply to have that Creek go over down.	00:07:30
	Follow the property line instead.	00:07:38
	I guess potentially.	00:07:41
	I don't know if that would.	00:07:45
	It's all in a floodplain zone in order to channelize that type of thing that's.	00:07:46
	That's a high. That's a big risk. And ask.	00:07:51
	So make sure I understand.	00:07:56
	What's happening?	00:07:57
	You rendered a written decision.	00:08:00
	Interpreting.	00:08:02
	The city ordinance.	00:08:04
	And that and.	00:08:06
	In spite of that, the department is recommending that we.	00:08:08
	Are we overturning your decision or are we saying?	00:08:12
	We understand why you made the decision, but there's some equitable reason we ought to allow this to be 143.	00:08:17
	It's yeah, I mean, really.	00:08:26
	There's not very many cities anymore that have.	00:08:28
	To topographical features that delineate zone boundaries.	00:08:32
	They really are, actually.	00:08:36
	Either drawn.	00:08:38
	City blocks are actually parcel lines are having.	00:08:39
	Percentage of the parcel that was within a boundary be available for interpretation of that zone map.	00:08:42
	Especially.	00:08:48
	As mapping and GIS technology changes.	00:08:50
	When you overlay.	00:08:53
	3 dimensional Earth topography with a flat.	00:08:55
	2D image.	00:08:58
	There's going to be some discrepancy.	00:08:59
	And so.	00:09:01
	It would be my proposal later on.	00:09:03
	To the City Council to afford.	00:09:05
	This department to have.	00:09:08
	That flexibility in interpreting the zone map based upon a parcel.	00:09:09
	Line rather than a topographical feature that.	00:09:12
	Could potentially change.	00:09:15
	That if we were to.	00:09:19
	Uphold the appeal.	00:09:21
	Aren't we?	00:09:23
	Technically saying you're wrong.	00:09:24
	In your interpretation.	00:09:26
	Technically, yes.	00:09:28
	The problem is with that is.	00:09:32
	By ordinance, my interpretation is bound so strictly there really is no interpretation.	00:09:34
	All I'm doing is following ordinance.	00:09:40
	Yeah, and it's.	00:09:42
	I would agree with it, but I think you are.	00:09:44
	Right. In making the decision you made, but we're being asked to overturn that.	00:09:46
	But then we're saying you're wrong and you're not wrong.	00:09:52
	And then if the goal is to fix it so that.	00:09:56
	All parts and the parcel in the same zone. Why don't we rezone?	00:10:00
	The other part of the parcel.	00:10:04
	Wouldn't that be the more logical thing to do? Or?	00:10:07
	Change the ordinance to fix all four of the properties that have this issue and be done with it.	00:10:11
	If we had participation from all four property owners, yes, if they knew about their situation, I would agree. I doubt they even	00:10:17
	know that that that situation occurs in their backyard.	00:10:21
	But interpreting the zone map would be the easiest way to assist.	00:10:27
	The parcel itself be.	00:10:31
	Fully located in the zone it belongs in.	00:10:32
	OK, so.	00:10:37
	I'm just trying to think through this.	00:10:39
	With zoning, like when someone petitions a zone change.	00:10:43
	Right, not appeal.	00:10:48
	Where the line is drawn.	00:10:49
	You know, hey, I want to change the zone.	00:10:51
	There's a certain level of public feedback and input that's taken into consideration.	00:10:53
	Is there?	00:11:02
	I mean, I just, I wonder is there going to be concern from?	00:11:03
	All the neighbors that are like what?	00:11:06
	That's usually when you have the the.	00:11:10
	Outright.	00:11:13
	Land rights for the entire parcel.	00:11:14
	Get amended and changed through a zone map change.	00:11:17
	This really isn't that.	00:11:21
	Primarily 90% of their lot has the rights available to them.	00:11:23
	It's amending what would be the interpretation of the boundary for the zone map correctly so that when they come back for.	00:11:29
	Subdivision application those.	00:11:34
	Zone maps or.	00:11:36
	Shown to the public more accurately.	00:11:37
	Is that the reason for the request?	00:11:41
	Well my reason is the reason for my request is to follow.	00:11:45
	Property lines rather than topography for this one part in particular.	00:11:48
	Yes.	00:11:52
	Be a part of the application that you'll.	00:11:53
	Potentially See.	00:11:55
	Soon, yes.	00:11:56
	So it's following up with that.	00:12:00
	If we change the zone tonight, we do it without any public input.	00:12:02
	Which if we're not changing the zone.	00:12:06
	You're just amending the zone map.	00:12:08
	Boundary OK. A zone change is a different process that's a neighbor to the West.	00:12:10
	And I have a piece of property between me and the.	00:12:16
	River.	00:12:20
	That's currently zoned.	00:12:21
	One way.	00:12:23
	And after this meeting?	00:12:24
	If we.	00:12:26
	Vote to do this.	00:12:28
	The zone will have changed without the public knowing.	00:12:30
	Of that piece of property.	00:12:33
	For the property itself.	00:12:36
	For 100% of the property, no, it's changing for now, just for.	00:12:37
	The peace between the river. But the important part is the piece that borders.	00:12:41
	Another resident.	00:12:47
	Who might come in and ask how did this all happen?	00:12:49
	So any public notice?	00:12:52
	Yeah. So all of the neighboring properties within 500 feet were noticed of this?	00:12:55
	Appealed The packet was published online, so there has been a public.	00:12:59
	Process followed with.	00:13:04
	Notifying neighbors and property owners.	00:13:05
	I see, just not a.	00:13:08
	Public hearing, right, Just not a public hearing. So it's more broadly there's notice to neighbors publicly put out on the website	00:13:10
	10 days before.	00:13:14
	And the packet was published 3 days before.	00:13:19
	So it has been available, the public is aware that.	00:13:23
	That this is what?	00:13:25
	The application is for what the appeal is.	00:13:28
	All the same information that you saw was available to the public.	00:13:32
	And the public is welcome to attend these meetings as well, same as a public hearing.	00:13:36
	As an appeals authority, you do have the option to take comment from anybody who is in the.	00:13:40
	In the audience that might have.	00:13:46
	Information I know or me want to.	00:13:48
	Add any details.	00:13:51
	Again, just up to you.	00:13:53
	There there is. Notice that.	00:13:56
	That was out there for.	00:13:59
	Nearby or neighboring properties.	00:14:00
	But again, if I was that.	00:14:04
	The fact that there's no public hearing suggests that we're not interested in.	00:14:06
	Public input. They could call and ask if they could.	00:14:10
	That if it's public hearing, the answer would be no.	00:14:13
	Well, you're acting as a quasi judicial body.	00:14:16
	A judge never has a.	00:14:20
	For hearing an appellant.	00:14:22
	Ever.	00:14:25
	Quasi is not the same as judicial. It's like, but it's not the fact that we have very few rules and all that is very different	00:14:28
	than well, there are rules. There are no hearings in holidays, judicial procedures.	00:14:35
	It's typically you would hear.	00:14:42
	You would hear.	00:14:44
	The presentation from the staff or the city's position on this and the city's position is.	00:14:45
	And I guess it's unique to the city's position is.	00:14:50
	Contrary to.	00:14:54
	The city's director's decision? Yeah, the city has two positions. That's the problem.	00:14:55
	Yeah, yeah.	00:15:00
	So.	00:15:01
	And this arises because.	00:15:02
	Because you have a parcel that's divided.	00:15:06
	With Tun 2 zones.	00:15:08
	And typically.	00:15:09
	That doesn't happen.	00:15:11
	It happened.	00:15:12
	By operation of law and not by.	00:15:13
	A rezone process.	00:15:15
	The public was notified. The property was notified. Oh, by the way.	00:15:17
	We're rezoning by normal public process. We put it on agenda and they're going to adopt.	00:15:20
	These.	00:15:25
	Sections of code.	00:15:27
	To deal with.	00:15:28
	Zone interpretation in the future, and here's what the boundaries are going to be if one of these boundaries exists.	00:15:29
	That will be the boundary.	00:15:34
	So this is kind of.	00:15:36
	From the city standpoint.	00:15:38
	From a legal standpoint, this is kind of an unintended consequence.	00:15:39
	That resulted.	00:15:43
	From that.	00:15:44
	Adoption of that process and those.	00:15:45
	You know, zoning map changes and things that were made back.	00:15:49
	Around the time of incorporation.	00:15:52
	So this is.	00:15:54
	This is a.	00:15:56
	Simplified way.	00:15:58
	To resolve that.	00:15:59
	For the property owner and for the city going forward.	00:16:00
	And you just happen to be in the unlucky.	00:16:04
	So.	00:16:08
	No one noticed this for 25 years apparently, but.	00:16:09
	Right, there must be some plans for the property there's cell or develop now.	00:16:11
	So it became an issue.	00:16:16
	One quick question.	00:16:17
	This when the.	00:16:20
	Property was zoned this way.	00:16:22
	When someone drew the line on the.	00:16:24
	Creek and said OK, this is how the zones are gonna work.	00:16:25
	Was at a different owner at that time that had.	00:16:29
	Control of the property.	00:16:31
	I think the letter said that it was the same owner.	00:16:33
	In 2000. In 2000.	00:16:37
	I don't know, that would be a question for.	00:16:39
	OK, I mean and.	00:16:41
	If potentially the decision was to overturn.	00:16:45
	The director's.	00:16:49
	Zone map itself.	00:16:50
	Doesn't change.	00:16:52
	We don't redraw the boundary.	00:16:53
	We just record against the title.	00:16:55
	Of the property, saying that it's been the determination.	00:16:57
	That the zone boundary for this property is R143.	00:17:00
	Because of this discrepancy.	00:17:04
	Issue with the zone map.	00:17:06
	Zone map itself doesn't change.	00:17:08
	So.	00:17:11
	Can I?	00:17:12
	Make sure I'm following this sort of.	00:17:14
	Legal argument, which is.	00:17:16
	City ordinance does not allow zone boundaries to be established by parcel line.	00:17:18
	Boundaries. It doesn't allow it.	00:17:22
	It doesn't allow it in this.	00:17:26
	Parcels case.	00:17:28
	Because of the way the location of the Creek.	00:17:29
	But as an appeal authority, we can make.	00:17:32
	Zone boundary determination is outside the standards of.	00:17:36
	Within city code.	00:17:38
	Because the implication is.	00:17:40
	An appeal authority can see if.	00:17:43
	There are nuances or contexts that aren't.	00:17:45
	That don't fit into city code.	00:17:49
	And in this case it seems like.	00:17:51
	There are.	00:17:53
	And it sounds like they're not they're.	00:17:54
	There's a small number of other parcels across the whole city that would be affected by a similar.	00:17:57
	Situation.	00:18:03
	And not to say that this isn't.	00:18:04
	Presidential.	00:18:06
	For treating someone the same way.	00:18:08
	The same exact issue or same very similar issue came before.	00:18:10
	But you're not a body that.	00:18:14
	Publishes your opinions.	00:18:18
	You know, and releases them and they're binding or anything like that like a normal court opinion from an appellate court would	00:18:19
	be.	00:18:22
	We're not looking at.	00:18:27
	The potential impact of all of this?	00:18:28
	We're looking at just this one parcel.	00:18:30
	Because.	00:18:33
	The city is.	00:18:34
	You know most of the other. My understanding is the other three properties that are.	00:18:36
	That are potentially impacted by this.	00:18:40
	Aren't.	00:18:43
	Their backyards is what I understand.	00:18:48
	Already. And they're not.	00:18:50
	There's not roads.	00:18:52
	You know nearby to do anything with them.	00:18:53
	It sounds like there will be.	00:18:55
	At some point.	00:18:57
	Right, right.	00:18:58
	The other three.	00:18:59
	Could be.	00:19:00
	The other thing they're further north of on Hillsdale is that you're talking about, right?	00:19:03
	Yeah.	00:19:07
	To deal with that. So it's not.	00:19:09
	We don't foresee any impact.	00:19:11
	Other than.	00:19:14
	If someone has a desire to make it uniform across their parcel.	00:19:15
	To deal with it, that's the only.	00:19:19
	We don't anticipate any development on those other three, I guess is the point.	00:19:21
	Are there?	00:19:27
	Just to follow suit on that, are there any other?	00:19:28
	Zone boundaries.	00:19:32
	That are.	00:19:35
	Geographical not just Creek, but any kind of other.	00:19:38
	Zone boundaries that exist within holiday that don't just follow parcel line that you are aware of.	00:19:41
	No, but I bet they're.	00:19:48
	They exist.	00:19:50
	That we're aware of now.	00:19:51
	Is it likely? Is it?	00:19:55
	Possible. Highly likely that there may be other.	00:19:56
	Unknown situations.	00:19:59
	Yes.	00:20:02
	I think to tie into Angela's question too about.	00:20:05
	Kind of the interpretation.	00:20:09
	I think with Paul's question as well with.	00:20:11
	How codes are written is that we have.	00:20:14
	Pretty strict standards of like This is the code this is.	00:20:17
	This is what the standard is.	00:20:20
	You very often or occasionally will run into situations.	00:20:22
	That don't necessarily fit within what the code allows.	00:20:27
	The state has regulations for variances.	00:20:33
	Variances would be.	00:20:36
	Some umm.	00:20:38
	Possibly switching?	00:20:41
	Setbacks or lot? Wits or other things?	00:20:44
	Based off of natural features of a property.	00:20:46
	We talked about this a little bit in another subdivision where.	00:20:50
	The Creek was in the backyard.	00:20:53
	And there was.	00:20:55
	With a Creek, that is one of those natural features that would.	00:20:57
	Be a situation where a variance would apply.	00:21:01
	Similar kind of an application here. Variances go to an appeals officer.	00:21:06
	They go through.	00:21:11
	Look at what those checks are.	00:21:13
	And then make a determination of.	00:21:15
	Yes, this is.	00:21:18
	What? Uh.	00:21:20
	The code says and this is where the variation would need to apply because of this.	00:21:21
	Kind of unique feature that is outside of what the norms would allow.	00:21:26
	So on Staffs.	00:21:30
	Staff's job is to interpret what the code is. The code sets the standard. Staff interprets that.	00:21:32
	And.	00:21:38
	When there are kind of outlier type situations.	00:21:39
	That's when it goes to an appeals authority, and that appeals authority has been the ability to look at that.	00:21:43
	Particular situation.	00:21:48
	And say.	00:21:50
	Maybe the code a strict interpretation of the code?	00:21:52
	Doesn't apply here. There needs to be some variation to what the code would allow.	00:21:55
	So that's the.	00:21:59
	Kind of appeals process, that's why.	00:22:00
	We have our appeal authority in our table and in this situation for zone map interpretations, that is you.	00:22:03
	Well.	00:22:12
	I think.	00:22:14
	You know, at this point might be a good idea just to have the applicant come up and answer any questions that we might have.	00:22:15
	And then we can.	00:22:21
	Come back and.	00:22:23
	Ask any additional.	00:22:24
	Questions of city staff, loan process code, policy, etc.	00:22:26
	But I think it might be a good idea just to kind of tap into the applicants, if the Commission agrees on that so.	00:22:31
	With that if I can invite the applicant.	00:22:38
	Representative up to maybe just answer a few questions for us.	00:22:40
	I'm Jaron Acton. I'm.	00:22:46
	With JUBM the designer.	00:22:47
	So, umm.	00:22:52
	Can you just maybe give me a quick backdrop into the why behind the what?	00:22:54
	With this, right? Yeah, so.	00:22:58
	What we're faced with is.	00:23:01
	We're trying to develop this property but.	00:23:04
	The owner owns several properties surrounding.	00:23:07
	That.	00:23:11
	And where the conflict is.	00:23:13
	Is with the.	00:23:15
	The acreage that we're trying to interpret which will determine.	00:23:17
	How many lots were able to?	00:23:20
	Develop on this.	00:23:22
	Unfortunately, that.	00:23:24
	That portion that sits across the Creek, which is less than an acre, it's only 3/10 of an acre.	00:23:26
	So there's it can't really be developed.	00:23:31
	Either side.	00:23:33
	You know, no matter where we put that.	00:23:35
	That land, but.	00:23:37
	If we're able to.	00:23:38
	Keep it with the majority.	00:23:40
	Of the estate that is the.	00:23:42
	The the property that's 90% in the R143.	00:23:44
	Then we're able to take that acreage and it allows us to get the.	00:23:48
	Density.	00:23:53
	That were.	00:23:54
	We're seeking.	00:23:55
	And just to make sure I understand, so with the R 143 E of the Creek.	00:23:57
	If this is.	00:24:04
	We're talking 3/10. What's my math on that?	00:24:05
	76000.	00:24:09
	Feet successful?	00:24:10
	Oh, it's 13,000.	00:24:13
	Yeah. So basically this is going to limit you to two structures instead of three. If you can incorporate that with the 143, that's	00:24:14
	what it comes down to, yeah.	00:24:19
	And the property has historically been used like it hasn't necessarily been an isolated piece of property that's just sat over	00:24:25
	there that's never been used.	00:24:29
	The owner.	00:24:34
	Of the property has historically used, it has a footbridge.	00:24:35
	Crossed it. It has been operating as if it was part of that.	00:24:39
	Parcel that sits on Holiday Blvd.	00:24:43
	And you came into the possession of the property?	00:24:53
	With this zone.	00:24:56
	Weirdness happening with the time of purchase, right? Yeah.	00:24:57
	OK, Yeah, it did. And it's, I mean.	00:25:01
	We looked.	00:25:03
	You know, the historic maps and that.	00:25:04
	You know that.	00:25:06
	The configuration of the property has been that way for.	00:25:07
	At least 20.	00:25:10
	30 years.	00:25:12
	OK. All right.	00:25:13
	Other questions for the applicant.	00:25:15
	All right, we'll have you sit down. Yeah, If you don't mind. We did talk to. I know one of the things that came up was, you know,	00:25:19
	if you were the adjacent property owner.	00:25:23
	You know, what would you think about this? And we've actually, the owner has had a conversation with.	00:25:27
	Him and he is in support.	00:25:32
	Of you know what we're trying to do.	00:25:33
	Here SO.	00:25:36
	All right. Thank you.	00:25:37
	Let me ask our attorney if.	00:25:45
	Is there a way, if we are so inclined, to vote?	00:25:47
	To approve this.	00:25:51
	To write it in a way that.	00:25:53
	Doesn't reject.	00:25:56
	The directors.	00:25:58
	Decision that simply says in spite of that decision.	00:25:59
	There's a. This is an equitable.	00:26:02
	Thing to do there.	00:26:05
	So, in other words, we.	00:26:07
	What I don't want to do is say you're wrong, because it really technically you can only appeal if there's an error in the	00:26:08
	interpretation of the planning code.	00:26:12
	Or abuse of discretion.	00:26:16
	And I don't think there's either one of those.	00:26:18
	But this still thing seems like the right thing to do.	00:26:21
	And there's a way to.	00:26:24
	Say that we, the director, was right.	00:26:28
	But here's our decision.	00:26:31
	I think we can work something out on that.	00:26:34
	I do think it's important that.	00:26:38
	You know, not ever be a precedent that.	00:26:39
	Either he abused his discretion or.	00:26:43
	That he was wrong.	00:26:45
	I think he didn't do either one of us.	00:26:46
	Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why?	00:26:50
	They couldn't.	00:26:53
	Pursue the same thing they're trying to do as a.	00:26:55
	Like private Urban Development and say, hey, we'll just leave that little corner of the Creekside as green site.	00:26:59
	Green open space for the city, if you let us.	00:27:05
	You know, build 3 houses over on the east part of the property.	00:27:08
	I'm asking the city. This is his expert opinion.	00:27:17
	And that I think that's more of the reasons why we're at this point.	00:27:20
	Before that that type of application is brought to you, they need to provide.	00:27:23
	Where that zone boundary is and how those calculations are made.	00:27:28
	And you know, eventually down the road when you talk about like a PUD situation, yes, that could occur.	00:27:34
	Absolutely.	00:27:39
	But we have to get to that point 1st, and that first hurdle is determining what sides.	00:27:41
	And what densities are being implemented?	00:27:46
	Sides of the zone boundary and what densities for each are being empty.	00:27:49
	I have a question for staff.	00:28:01
	So if this doesn't get approved.	00:28:03
	What's their?	00:28:05
	Course of action.	00:28:07
	They just have a grandfathered.	00:28:08
	Property that's.	00:28:10
	Substandard based on the current code.	00:28:11
	They could still develop on that.	00:28:14
	Well, yeah, I mean, they have to use the area that's on the West side of the Creek and in.	00:28:18
	Gross calculation.	00:28:22
	For whatever density allowance is all the whole thing there. It just doesn't.	00:28:24
	So they're short by what, 20,000 square feet?	00:28:28
	It doesn't matter. I mean, they're short.	00:28:31
	So.	00:28:36
	They couldn't do anything on the property.	00:28:37
	The West side of the Creek, then.	00:28:39
	I don't think there's a threat for any development.	00:28:41
	Piece right? It's on that side. I'm just trying to figure out if they have another course of action if this doesn't.	00:28:44
	Get changed or.	00:28:49
	I think the next course of action would be.	00:28:50
	Rezone the property.	00:28:53
	I see. OK.	00:28:56
	That's right.	00:28:57
	I'm not gonna lie.	00:28:58
	I mean, it feels like.	00:29:03
	Rezoning it all to R143.	00:29:04
	Would just follow.	00:29:08
	The most sensible part of the process to me, because then you go through the zoning process, there's a public hearing and if	00:29:09
	everybody, including the neighbors, says hey, great, we love that, it's awesome. Do it.	00:29:14
	Check the box. Moving on.	00:29:19
	You know what I mean?	00:29:21
	But uh.	00:29:23
	And I get it.	00:29:24
	Like, but I also, this is one of those kind of and I, and I mean no disrespect, I understand your tent, but it's kind of one of	00:29:25
	those buyer beware situations.	00:29:29
	If you're going to say, well hey, I'm going to buy this and then I want to change what I bought.	00:29:33
	Like maybe make sure you can do that before you buy.	00:29:38
	But that's just me.	00:29:42
	Possibly.	00:29:44
	The outcome is the same, I mean, if we grant the appeal tonight.	00:29:48
	But it just simplifies everything for everybody.	00:29:53
	Seems to me.	00:29:56
	You know they're going to build 3 structures.	00:29:58
	On the east side of the property.	00:30:00
	I mean.	00:30:05
	Why don't we just keep it simple?	00:30:06
	I can be convinced.	00:30:12
	I would love to hear just individual thoughts that start down here. Commissioner Barrett, what's going through your mind right	00:30:13
	now?	00:30:15
	I'm I agree.	00:30:19
	Simple, simple.	00:30:20
	10.	00:30:22
	Mr. Gong.	00:30:24
	I think in a lot of ways it makes sense. It's such a small proportion of the parcel.	00:30:27
	That's different.	00:30:32
	It, you know, being incorporated into holiday.	00:30:34
	Did this funky thing to the zoning that wasn't true before.	00:30:37
	I The two things that just bother me a little bit are.	00:30:42
	The idea that.	00:30:46
	You know, there's a strict, there's an interpretation.	00:30:48
	That there's a, there's the.	00:30:51
	The code. And then there's this process of not keeping the code if you ask nicely a second time.	00:30:52
	Which is, you know, and.	00:30:59
	And if it weren't a reasonable question.	00:31:00
	We would.	00:31:03
	You know, we would say that doesn't make sense. In this case, it seems like it does make sense.	00:31:03
	Umm, but.	00:31:09
	I don't love the idea of a bunch of people appealing the code, but maybe that's not. Maybe that's.	00:31:13
	Historically that hasn't happened, so maybe that's not something we have to worry about.	00:31:18
	I just also philosophically.	00:31:21
	Like having streams matter.	00:31:24
	As something that defines the.	00:31:28
	The parcels and defines the city and I think that's something.	00:31:30
	People value in holidays, so it's not.	00:31:34
	Turns out it's not that common. It's not.	00:31:37
	The, you know, determining a lot of zoning, but.	00:31:38
	I like that it matters.	00:31:42
	It's a different.	00:31:43
	Way of viewing the world if you say the stream doesn't matter the parcel.	00:31:44
	Lines matter for zoning.	00:31:48
	It's just a different way of saying how are we laying out our city and how are we?	00:31:49
	Viewing the natural.	00:31:54
	Things that we are building around.	00:31:56
	Are they part of what we have to consider or not?	00:31:58
	And while there are other things that we have to consider with this dream, such as.	00:32:01
	You know if you there are a bunch of permitting things if you ever want to mess with the water.	00:32:05
	Flood zones, all that kind of thing. It's not that they don't have to consider it.	00:32:09
	But it is a shift away from.	00:32:12
	What our code says which is.	00:32:14
	If it's sort of near a river, the river becomes the boundary and it matters.	00:32:17
	In a way for zoning so.	00:32:21
	I think that's an underlying philosophy thing that I don't.	00:32:23
	Love moving away from but I think in this case it makes.	00:32:26
	Sense to just.	00:32:30
	Put this little sliver in with the rest of it.	00:32:31
	Mr. Cunningham.	00:32:36
	I asked that question, Brad, whether or not we can write at night. The more I think about it.	00:32:40
	The more I think it's a bad idea. I think we're trying to rezone using the wrong process. We have other process that could either	00:32:45
	change the ordinance and.	00:32:49
	Change the Creek as if that's what the city wants to do, or they can come in and ask for a rezone.	00:32:53
	I the whole idea is that.	00:32:59
	You can only appeal if you believe.	00:33:02
	That you didn't make the correct interpretation.	00:33:05
	More of that.	00:33:08
	You know that.	00:33:09
	And that isn't true in my mind and so.	00:33:12
	No matter how skillful, you're right. If I don't know how you can't come out with the.	00:33:17
	A conclusion that.	00:33:20
	Does rezoning.	00:33:22
	And pretends that.	00:33:23
	That was an outcome that was anticipated.	00:33:24
	By the nature of the appeal, there's only.	00:33:28
	You know, the language of the appeal is pretty clear about what you have to.	00:33:30
	Allege and that.	00:33:34
	They didn't ledge either one of those. It didn't present any evidence about either one of those. They simply said.	00:33:36
	But this shouldn't have happened 25 years ago, and we didn't worry about it for 25 years. Now we want to.	00:33:41
	Building now, it's urgent.	00:33:46
	And then?	00:33:48
	Just so you're aware.	00:33:55
	Staff was the one that.	00:33:56
	Uncovered the issue with the.	00:33:58
	Bifur Bifurcation.	00:34:00
	And I don't. So no one, no one that owned the property was aware of that.	00:34:03
	Yeah.	00:34:06
	Yeah, I don't.	00:34:08
	Disagree with?	00:34:09
	What the outcome probably would be no matter which process they went through.	00:34:10
	But I don't think this is the right process to do that.	00:34:14
	So the issue is.	00:34:17
	We grant the appeal.	00:34:19
	And they built 3.	00:34:21
	Structures on the property.	00:34:23
	We don't grant the appeal and they bill 2.	00:34:25
	Is that what it comes down to? I don't think that's the case. I think the more likely if.	00:34:27
	If the Planning Commission does not grant the appeal or does not find in favor of the appellant, then.	00:34:32
	I think.	00:34:38
	And again, I'm putting myself in their shoes.	00:34:39
	They have the option of.	00:34:42
	Finally a rezone application.	00:34:44
	Right, so I don't think this is just a process that exists.	00:34:47
	Currently within the Citi code.	00:34:51
	Where the Planning Commission can sit in this?	00:34:53
	Form and function.	00:34:57
	To help address.	00:34:59
	This particular issue.	00:35:02
	So will they likely end up in the same place?	00:35:03
	You're going to be, yeah. So potentially how many times do you want this? If you have a rezone application, the staff is going to	00:35:06
	have you asking questions.	00:35:10
	Does it conform to the general plan?	00:35:14
	Is this a neighborhood characteristic type situation?	00:35:16
	All the usual questions you're.	00:35:19
	Probably asking yourself in the back of your mind anyway.	00:35:21
	And I like.	00:35:26
	Councilmember Gong was going with the fact that for all intents and purposes, we look at parcel lines.	00:35:30
	Or natural features that define parcel lines.	00:35:35
	If we can go back to that map.	00:35:38
	All the parcels all the way up until.	00:35:42
	About what's What's the South of Hilton?	00:35:45
	Probably around.	00:35:48
	50th South or so.	00:35:50
	All the all those parses are defined by the Creek.	00:35:53
	Except for this one.	00:35:57
	And that's correct. I mean, that's an excellent.	00:35:59
	Characteristic of holidays development.	00:36:02
	Overtime.	00:36:05
	What is this?	00:36:06
	Boundary.	00:36:10
	So for the purposes of creating a zone boundary between R143 and R187 in 1999 and 2000.	00:36:12
	Councils that everything on the West side is this zone.	00:36:20
	East Side is that zone.	00:36:23
	And defined by the Creek boundary.	00:36:26
	Well, everything that's on the East side.	00:36:29
	Especially especially for this one parcel.	00:36:31
	Was not taken into consideration that it owns land.	00:36:34
	On the other side of the Creek.	00:36:38
	That historically was already one acre zone.	00:36:40
	From the county zoning.	00:36:43
	I think.	00:36:46
	In you know.	00:36:47
	50s here.	00:36:48
	Retrospect, as I was.	00:36:50
	Interesting, but.	00:36:52
	We had to redraw the zone map. Yes, the Creek would be definitely the boundary.	00:36:54
	But it still would also fall a parcel lines of ownership.	00:36:58
	So that the property owner does.	00:37:01
	Owner of all of this property does own all within one's own boundary. It's not bisected by.	00:37:03
	So what is this?	00:37:13
	2 up from the 43 is that that?	00:37:15
	Like monastery.	00:37:17
	Or the nunnery or whatever that's called up there.	00:37:19
	The up one more.	00:37:23
	Big block.	00:37:25
	As the Creek running through it 2 smaller blocks of buddy that.	00:37:26
	Through our zone map today.	00:37:30
	Yeah.	00:37:35
	Is that all one property as well?	00:37:37
	Where it's R 187 on the West side and R 43 on the other.	00:37:40
	I don't know if there's a parcel line there or not.	00:37:49
	But yeah, that would be the Carmelites.	00:37:57
	And supposing for some reason whatsoever they were like, oh, Gee, we have to abandon and vacate this lot and we're going to sell	00:38:08
	it.	00:38:11
	Wouldn't we find almost an identical situation?	00:38:16
	If when that comes to pass, if someone comes in and wants to develop that.	00:38:18
	Yeah, their parcel line follows the Creek. It ends at the Creek there.	00:38:22
	So it's a different parcel on the other side of the Creek.	00:38:27
	And even those subdivisions that are accessed.	00:38:33
	From Holiday Blvd. as you cross.	00:38:35
	The bridge.	00:38:38
	The rest of that lot is on the other side.	00:38:40
	The zone boundary.	00:38:42
	What? Sorry, which one are you talking about?	00:38:47
	Yeah, it's this one right here.	00:38:51
	So shady.	00:38:53
	Is this in a subdivision plat except this back lot?	00:38:55
	That's on being on the other side of the Creek. It's in the Arlen 43 zone.	00:38:59
	The property.	00:39:05
	This is all Carmelites right here.	00:39:17
	But all of those parcels and.	00:39:21
	OK.	00:39:24
	Are described.	00:39:31
	I see what you're saying.	00:39:42
	I see what you're saying because.	00:39:45
	Usually.	00:39:48
	I mean, an appeal would say the process was wrong.	00:39:49
	I'm going to say the process was correct or not correct.	00:39:53
	As sort of, but in this one we also get to say the outcome was.	00:39:56
	I mean, an appeal letter says For these reasons we think the interpretation should follow a historic operating.	00:40:02
	That's the appeal.	00:40:08
	And that and.	00:40:10
	I think.	00:40:12
	If we agree with their argument, then we have to say that.	00:40:13
	The director's interpretation was wrong.	00:40:17
	The director's interpretation.	00:40:19
	Appears to be solidly based on the existing ordinance.	00:40:21
	So.	00:40:26
	With the way this.	00:40:27
	Appeal is worded.	00:40:29
	Could that and the legal can chime in on this? Could that potentially open up a can of worms for people to say, well, that's not	00:40:32
	how it was zoned back in the day?	00:40:37
	So we disagree with the zoning that exists now.	00:40:42
	Because you've already overturned one that back in the day was zoned something else and you changed it and you agreed to change	00:40:47
	the zone for me now because we proved.	00:40:51
	Through our appeal that.	00:40:55
	It was not.	00:40:58
	And that's to assume that.	00:40:59
	We did that so with such intent that the back.	00:41:01
	Quarter of that property was intended to be.	00:41:04
	A2 acre zone.	00:41:07
	It wasn't intended to be a 2 acre zone. I get it. I'm just like I said, looking into the.	00:41:09
	Crystal ball of.	00:41:15
	Cans of worms.	00:41:17
	Because because on the appeal this particular process and this particular parcel have identified.	00:41:19
	Some opportunities for improvement.	00:41:25
	And I'll leave with you what I mean by what we're talking about, but I would not be surprised if you will see some.	00:41:30
	Land use regulations that may be amended.	00:41:36
	As a result of.	00:41:41
	And to Commissioner Cunningham's point, if we say.	00:41:45
	Sorry to be sticklers. We get it. The outcome is going to be the same. And yeah, I mean, it sucks, but go through the other	00:41:48
	channel, get the thing rezoned because that's the process that we have in place for.	00:41:54
	This.	00:41:59
	Would that help negate?	00:42:00
	Some of those potential.	00:42:02
	No, Maybe.	00:42:04
	Here's the other Here's the other point. Carrie, would you mind bringing up 1311 again?	00:42:07
	1311 is talking about the.	00:42:15
	The interpretation of the zone map.	00:42:17
	Because John, maybe.	00:42:20
	Talking to about some of the.	00:42:22
	Instances where we operate under a spirit of the zoning law. Umm.	00:42:26
	Or that we do have some flexibility on some things, some things that we don't have flexibility on with.	00:42:30
	And that's.	00:42:36
	A common thing that she used to experiences as well.	00:42:37
	But 1311?	00:42:40
	The boundary location rules. Is that what you're looking at?	00:42:48
	Yeah. So, OK.	00:42:51
	Yeah, 1311.	00:42:52
	050 there's three situations.	00:42:54
	Or a zone map or the following rules apply one.	00:42:56
	You follow where the streets are.	00:42:59
	Alley blocks, etc.	00:43:01
	Two, you follow natural features like public parks, rivers, canals.	00:43:03
	Waterways. Railroads.	00:43:08
	ETC but three.	00:43:12
	Planning Commission still has a role here.	00:43:14
	Where those two were unclear.	00:43:18
	It's still the Planning Commission that still isn't to interpret.	00:43:20
	To be the final interpreter.	00:43:22
	Interpreters of the zone map.	00:43:24
	Because.	00:43:27
	Dishes and was made.	00:43:27
	Based upon B.	00:43:30
	Essentially, uh.	00:43:31
	It's not necessarily unclear.	00:43:33
	But there is.	00:43:36
	There is an ability to interpret the zone map outside of the rezone process.	00:43:37
	But is this the statute that controls this appeal?	00:43:45
	Or is that a freestanding authority? Because, like I said, because of B?	00:43:48
	I rendered a decision.	00:43:53
	And that needs to be appealed.	00:43:55
	Because there's not.	00:43:58
	We could have brought to you a request to interpret.	00:44:00
	Clarity, but if you were to read A&B.	00:44:03
	Maybe it's pretty clear that that's where. Yeah, I agree. That's clear.	00:44:06
	And in the I mean in the letter it says if you believe the determination rendering this document represents an error in the	00:44:13
	interpretation of the planning code.	00:44:16
	I don't think it does.	00:44:20
	Or abuse and discretion by the Community Economic Developer Development Director.	00:44:21
	I also don't think it does.	00:44:25
	An appeal may be filed.	00:44:28
	And the staff is recommending that we grant the appeal.	00:44:29
	Interesting.	00:44:33
	But.	00:44:34
	Also variances to standards.	00:44:35
	Typically have the requirement spirit of the code is observed.	00:44:39
	I mean, say that one again.	00:44:44
	And substantial justice is served.	00:44:49
	OK.	00:44:56
	Well.	00:45:00
	Commissioners, do we have?	00:45:01
	More thoughts to Mull over. Questions for staff, Questions for council.	00:45:03
	Questions for each other.	00:45:07
	Or do we feel like we want to take a vote and see where everything falls?	00:45:09
	I just don't think there's any reason to complicate the issue.	00:45:28
	And I think what complicated.	00:45:38
	I mean, it's not like we're in Salt Lake City. We don't have tons and tons of properties.	00:45:39
	This is this matter is going to come before us again.	00:45:46
	If we don't grant it.	00:45:51
	And we don't have 500 properties.	00:45:52
	Where we're going to have to.	00:45:56
	Evaluate this issue.	00:45:57
	Moving forward.	00:45:59
	So those are my $0.02.	00:46:00
	This is also the process staff recommended too, so.	00:46:05
	Yeah, I support that.	00:46:11
	2.	00:46:14
	What do you think? All right, well, I'm just going to this is Commissioner Roach and I'm just going to make a motion.	00:46:16
	To I don't have the motion on here, do I? That's OK, I'll wing it.	00:46:24
	To approve a zone boundary.	00:46:28
	Map interpretation.	00:46:32
	Brought forth by the applicant as outlined in the packet.	00:46:36
	So that the.	00:46:42
	Use of the.	00:46:44
	Zone can be R143.	00:46:45
	For the entirety of the parcel.	00:46:49
	That works.	00:46:52
	This is Commissioner Baron, I second.	00:46:54
	All right. And with that, we'll call for a vote. Commissioner Baron. All right.	00:46:56
	Commissioner flaunt aye.	00:47:00
	Commissioner.	00:47:01
	Aye, Commissioner.	00:47:03
	Hey, why you got to do that?	00:47:04
	Umm.	00:47:10
	Just for clarity.	00:47:14
	You have to have 4.	00:47:16
	I know.	00:47:17
	He painted me into this corner.	00:47:19
	That's all right.	00:47:22
	I'm going to.	00:47:28
	Put in here a.	00:47:29
	Reluctant.	00:47:31
	Based on.	00:47:33
	The fact that the outcome.	00:47:35
	Ultimately.	00:47:37
	End up with the same.	00:47:39
	And this will just.	00:47:41
	Simplify the process as recommended by staff.	00:47:42
	Well, recognizing.	00:47:45
	That.	00:47:47
	The alternative options are probably best in unique situations of appeal.	00:47:49
	So that public comment can be had.	00:47:55
	Two done.	00:47:59
	Perfect.	00:48:02
	And with that.	00:48:04
	That's all we have on the agenda. I'll make a motion to adjourn. All in favor say aye.	00:48:08
	Aye.	00:48:12

* you need to log in to manage your favorites

Agenda
Packet
Transcript

* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document

Transcript search

Transcript

Event transcript
	Spot yet?	00:00:00
	I'm sorry.	00:00:03
	I just wondering if somebody.	00:00:04
	Filled ginger. See yet?	00:00:06
	Yes.	00:00:09
	And hers is district not at large.	00:00:15
	We're rolling all right.	00:00:42
	Good evening. Welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission, Tuesday, August 12, 2025.	00:00:44
	In attendance we have city staff, council and.	00:00:50
	All commissioners except Commissioner Prince, who sent her regrets.	00:00:55
	And we have one item on the agenda. I do not see any members of the public, so we are going to omit the.	00:00:59
	Statement for the public about the Planning Commission and just roll right in.	00:01:06
	To item the one item we have which is the zone boundary or map interpretation for 6114 S Holiday Blvd. And since we did not have a	00:01:11
	work meeting I am sure we'll probably have a few.	00:01:17
	Questions for staff as we were all on this, but.	00:01:23
	I will turn it over to Steph to get us going.	00:01:26
	And Brad on proceedings on this June is that.	00:01:32
	Normal to have staff presentation for an appeal first.	00:01:36
	There's not really a.	00:01:43
	The exact process on how this is supposed to work.	00:01:45
	I'm not sure if your mics on.	00:01:49
	Sorry, the Planning Commission is acting as the appeal authority.	00:01:51
	Particular matter.	00:01:56
	So we basically have.	00:01:57
	I mean, there can be a presentation, It doesn't have to be a presentation. It could be up to the.	00:02:00
	If the Planning Commission has reviewed the packet.	00:02:04
	Umm has any questions they can ask those if the?	00:02:10
	If the Planning Commission would like a presentation, OK, here's the situation. Here's the issue.	00:02:12
	Give it to you in a nutshell.	00:02:17
	And then?	00:02:18
	You guys can deliberate, you can hear from the appellant and.	00:02:19
	You can make a determination.	00:02:25
	I it is my.	00:02:27
	Understanding this is not very controversial.	00:02:29
	At least.	00:02:32
	From the staff.	00:02:33
	Point of view.	00:02:33
	It's just going through the process that's required under the code.	00:02:35
	OK.	00:02:40
	Well, Commissioner Barrett.	00:02:41
	Yeah, just one.	00:02:44
	Do you know why the city when it incorporated?	00:02:47
	Change this from the county zoning.	00:02:52
	John may be able to speak a little bit more about that. We have to call Paul Allred in or something like probably that means in	00:02:56
	particular.	00:02:59
	Yeah, so.	00:03:03
	For the reason that holiday incorporated from the county primarily was that.	00:03:04
	The zone map at the time for the Community Council was not.	00:03:09
	Agreeable to majority of the residents that are in the area.	00:03:12
	I think the county mapping zoning maps are.	00:03:16
	Allowed for quite a bit more development opportunity.	00:03:20
	And the idea of protecting estate properties was not really established.	00:03:25
	And the two acre zone did that.	00:03:30
	At the time.	00:03:33
	OK.	00:03:36
	And in the packet there was this map that was included of.	00:03:38
	Holiday city zoning, that was.	00:03:44
	In place in 2000.	00:03:46
	Upon incorporation, so that's.	00:03:48
	Or you can see the R187 broken out from R143.	00:03:50
	I don't know if this was the.	00:03:55
	Adopted map.	00:03:58
	And what those boundaries are?	00:04:00
	It looks like they were drawing boundaries for our 187 along.	00:04:02
	Would that be a fault line?	00:04:05
	So there was. There was still some.	00:04:09
	Discussion there.	00:04:11
	That was kind of the.	00:04:14
	History of.	00:04:15
	Where things started at incorporation.	00:04:16
	Yeah, one other question now.	00:04:20
	There the access to the West side of the property.	00:04:23
	Has to go over the Creek.	00:04:27
	Is that right?	00:04:28
	There's no other access way.	00:04:30
	Other than from the east over the Creek to the proper.	00:04:32
	Right for this individual parcel, it is only accessible from Holiday Blvd.	00:04:35
	So do you see any?	00:04:41
	Harm or any kind of.	00:04:42
	Encroachment that changes.	00:04:45
	What's going to happen around it if this goes to the R143?	00:04:47
	The parcel will be involved in a future development and.	00:04:53
	There was just some inconsistency in the zoning. So this is the procedural first.	00:04:57
	Step in addressing that.	00:05:01
	So that they could move forward with.	00:05:04
	Development.	00:05:05
	But do you see?	00:05:07
	You know how you start to encroach in the neighborhoods and it starts to erode kind of the?	00:05:09
	The zoning for that?	00:05:13
	A problem with going.	00:05:16
	So this.	00:05:17
	Not necessarily where it all is.	00:05:22
	Access from.	00:05:24
	Quality Blvd. And it is.	00:05:26
	Predominantly the R143 zone.	00:05:29
	OK, how many? Do we have a rough idea of how many?	00:05:31
	Properties.	00:05:36
	Umm, this impact?	00:05:38
	This is not something that has happened in the history of holiday, right?	00:05:42
	Where someone has appealed a.	00:05:45
	Boundary zone drawn.	00:05:47
	On the map since incorporation.	00:05:49
	Is that right?	00:05:51
	Correct. So do we know how many property because I assume this would kind of set a precedent how many properties this Creek?	00:05:52
	Runs through and how many other parcels potentially or I want to change my zone to this or that because of this?	00:05:59
	Yeah, we do know.	00:06:04
	This is one of four.	00:06:06
	There's only four properties this would impact.	00:06:07
	No, this is only one of four situations where.	00:06:10
	The Creek bisects.	00:06:13
	The rest of the properties are further up on Hillsdale, closer to Cottonwood Lane.	00:06:16
	Or their backyards.	00:06:20
	Of owned property goes across the Creek.	00:06:22
	So it's this and four other properties. Three other properties.	00:06:26
	OK. And everything else, the property line stops at the Creek?	00:06:31
	Yeah, it was definitely intended that everything on the.	00:06:35
	That's accessed by Holiday Blvd.	00:06:38
	Was intended to be 1 acre zoning.	00:06:41
	And is this.	00:06:48
	Is this a year round Creek that runs through there? Is this one that dries out due to water rights in the summer?	00:06:50
	No, this is year round.	00:06:55
	Flow.	00:06:56
	So with that as there would be.	00:06:57
	Army Corps of Engineers.	00:06:59
	Prevention of how you could manipulate or change that Creek run path.	00:07:02
	Well, there would always be an application to modify the.	00:07:10
	The flow rate in the banks of the Creek, but that would be a completely separate permitting process through Army Corps and state	00:07:13
	floodplains.	00:07:17
	Or army.	00:07:22
	Floyd County flood control.	00:07:23
	So it is a situation where.	00:07:25
	Just looking into the crystal ball.	00:07:27
	OK, great. We'll change it to all R143 that parcel owner could say. OK, now I'm going to apply to have that Creek go over down.	00:07:30
	Follow the property line instead.	00:07:38
	I guess potentially.	00:07:41
	I don't know if that would.	00:07:45
	It's all in a floodplain zone in order to channelize that type of thing that's.	00:07:46
	That's a high. That's a big risk. And ask.	00:07:51
	So make sure I understand.	00:07:56
	What's happening?	00:07:57
	You rendered a written decision.	00:08:00
	Interpreting.	00:08:02
	The city ordinance.	00:08:04
	And that and.	00:08:06
	In spite of that, the department is recommending that we.	00:08:08
	Are we overturning your decision or are we saying?	00:08:12
	We understand why you made the decision, but there's some equitable reason we ought to allow this to be 143.	00:08:17
	It's yeah, I mean, really.	00:08:26
	There's not very many cities anymore that have.	00:08:28
	To topographical features that delineate zone boundaries.	00:08:32
	They really are, actually.	00:08:36
	Either drawn.	00:08:38
	City blocks are actually parcel lines are having.	00:08:39
	Percentage of the parcel that was within a boundary be available for interpretation of that zone map.	00:08:42
	Especially.	00:08:48
	As mapping and GIS technology changes.	00:08:50
	When you overlay.	00:08:53
	3 dimensional Earth topography with a flat.	00:08:55
	2D image.	00:08:58
	There's going to be some discrepancy.	00:08:59
	And so.	00:09:01
	It would be my proposal later on.	00:09:03
	To the City Council to afford.	00:09:05
	This department to have.	00:09:08
	That flexibility in interpreting the zone map based upon a parcel.	00:09:09
	Line rather than a topographical feature that.	00:09:12
	Could potentially change.	00:09:15
	That if we were to.	00:09:19
	Uphold the appeal.	00:09:21
	Aren't we?	00:09:23
	Technically saying you're wrong.	00:09:24
	In your interpretation.	00:09:26
	Technically, yes.	00:09:28
	The problem is with that is.	00:09:32
	By ordinance, my interpretation is bound so strictly there really is no interpretation.	00:09:34
	All I'm doing is following ordinance.	00:09:40
	Yeah, and it's.	00:09:42
	I would agree with it, but I think you are.	00:09:44
	Right. In making the decision you made, but we're being asked to overturn that.	00:09:46
	But then we're saying you're wrong and you're not wrong.	00:09:52
	And then if the goal is to fix it so that.	00:09:56
	All parts and the parcel in the same zone. Why don't we rezone?	00:10:00
	The other part of the parcel.	00:10:04
	Wouldn't that be the more logical thing to do? Or?	00:10:07
	Change the ordinance to fix all four of the properties that have this issue and be done with it.	00:10:11
	If we had participation from all four property owners, yes, if they knew about their situation, I would agree. I doubt they even	00:10:17
	know that that that situation occurs in their backyard.	00:10:21
	But interpreting the zone map would be the easiest way to assist.	00:10:27
	The parcel itself be.	00:10:31
	Fully located in the zone it belongs in.	00:10:32
	OK, so.	00:10:37
	I'm just trying to think through this.	00:10:39
	With zoning, like when someone petitions a zone change.	00:10:43
	Right, not appeal.	00:10:48
	Where the line is drawn.	00:10:49
	You know, hey, I want to change the zone.	00:10:51
	There's a certain level of public feedback and input that's taken into consideration.	00:10:53
	Is there?	00:11:02
	I mean, I just, I wonder is there going to be concern from?	00:11:03
	All the neighbors that are like what?	00:11:06
	That's usually when you have the the.	00:11:10
	Outright.	00:11:13
	Land rights for the entire parcel.	00:11:14
	Get amended and changed through a zone map change.	00:11:17
	This really isn't that.	00:11:21
	Primarily 90% of their lot has the rights available to them.	00:11:23
	It's amending what would be the interpretation of the boundary for the zone map correctly so that when they come back for.	00:11:29
	Subdivision application those.	00:11:34
	Zone maps or.	00:11:36
	Shown to the public more accurately.	00:11:37
	Is that the reason for the request?	00:11:41
	Well my reason is the reason for my request is to follow.	00:11:45
	Property lines rather than topography for this one part in particular.	00:11:48
	Yes.	00:11:52
	Be a part of the application that you'll.	00:11:53
	Potentially See.	00:11:55
	Soon, yes.	00:11:56
	So it's following up with that.	00:12:00
	If we change the zone tonight, we do it without any public input.	00:12:02
	Which if we're not changing the zone.	00:12:06
	You're just amending the zone map.	00:12:08
	Boundary OK. A zone change is a different process that's a neighbor to the West.	00:12:10
	And I have a piece of property between me and the.	00:12:16
	River.	00:12:20
	That's currently zoned.	00:12:21
	One way.	00:12:23
	And after this meeting?	00:12:24
	If we.	00:12:26
	Vote to do this.	00:12:28
	The zone will have changed without the public knowing.	00:12:30
	Of that piece of property.	00:12:33
	For the property itself.	00:12:36
	For 100% of the property, no, it's changing for now, just for.	00:12:37
	The peace between the river. But the important part is the piece that borders.	00:12:41
	Another resident.	00:12:47
	Who might come in and ask how did this all happen?	00:12:49
	So any public notice?	00:12:52
	Yeah. So all of the neighboring properties within 500 feet were noticed of this?	00:12:55
	Appealed The packet was published online, so there has been a public.	00:12:59
	Process followed with.	00:13:04
	Notifying neighbors and property owners.	00:13:05
	I see, just not a.	00:13:08
	Public hearing, right, Just not a public hearing. So it's more broadly there's notice to neighbors publicly put out on the website	00:13:10
	10 days before.	00:13:14
	And the packet was published 3 days before.	00:13:19
	So it has been available, the public is aware that.	00:13:23
	That this is what?	00:13:25
	The application is for what the appeal is.	00:13:28
	All the same information that you saw was available to the public.	00:13:32
	And the public is welcome to attend these meetings as well, same as a public hearing.	00:13:36
	As an appeals authority, you do have the option to take comment from anybody who is in the.	00:13:40
	In the audience that might have.	00:13:46
	Information I know or me want to.	00:13:48
	Add any details.	00:13:51
	Again, just up to you.	00:13:53
	There there is. Notice that.	00:13:56
	That was out there for.	00:13:59
	Nearby or neighboring properties.	00:14:00
	But again, if I was that.	00:14:04
	The fact that there's no public hearing suggests that we're not interested in.	00:14:06
	Public input. They could call and ask if they could.	00:14:10
	That if it's public hearing, the answer would be no.	00:14:13
	Well, you're acting as a quasi judicial body.	00:14:16
	A judge never has a.	00:14:20
	For hearing an appellant.	00:14:22
	Ever.	00:14:25
	Quasi is not the same as judicial. It's like, but it's not the fact that we have very few rules and all that is very different	00:14:28
	than well, there are rules. There are no hearings in holidays, judicial procedures.	00:14:35
	It's typically you would hear.	00:14:42
	You would hear.	00:14:44
	The presentation from the staff or the city's position on this and the city's position is.	00:14:45
	And I guess it's unique to the city's position is.	00:14:50
	Contrary to.	00:14:54
	The city's director's decision? Yeah, the city has two positions. That's the problem.	00:14:55
	Yeah, yeah.	00:15:00
	So.	00:15:01
	And this arises because.	00:15:02
	Because you have a parcel that's divided.	00:15:06
	With Tun 2 zones.	00:15:08
	And typically.	00:15:09
	That doesn't happen.	00:15:11
	It happened.	00:15:12
	By operation of law and not by.	00:15:13
	A rezone process.	00:15:15
	The public was notified. The property was notified. Oh, by the way.	00:15:17
	We're rezoning by normal public process. We put it on agenda and they're going to adopt.	00:15:20
	These.	00:15:25
	Sections of code.	00:15:27
	To deal with.	00:15:28
	Zone interpretation in the future, and here's what the boundaries are going to be if one of these boundaries exists.	00:15:29
	That will be the boundary.	00:15:34
	So this is kind of.	00:15:36
	From the city standpoint.	00:15:38
	From a legal standpoint, this is kind of an unintended consequence.	00:15:39
	That resulted.	00:15:43
	From that.	00:15:44
	Adoption of that process and those.	00:15:45
	You know, zoning map changes and things that were made back.	00:15:49
	Around the time of incorporation.	00:15:52
	So this is.	00:15:54
	This is a.	00:15:56
	Simplified way.	00:15:58
	To resolve that.	00:15:59
	For the property owner and for the city going forward.	00:16:00
	And you just happen to be in the unlucky.	00:16:04
	So.	00:16:08
	No one noticed this for 25 years apparently, but.	00:16:09
	Right, there must be some plans for the property there's cell or develop now.	00:16:11
	So it became an issue.	00:16:16
	One quick question.	00:16:17
	This when the.	00:16:20
	Property was zoned this way.	00:16:22
	When someone drew the line on the.	00:16:24
	Creek and said OK, this is how the zones are gonna work.	00:16:25
	Was at a different owner at that time that had.	00:16:29
	Control of the property.	00:16:31
	I think the letter said that it was the same owner.	00:16:33
	In 2000. In 2000.	00:16:37
	I don't know, that would be a question for.	00:16:39
	OK, I mean and.	00:16:41
	If potentially the decision was to overturn.	00:16:45
	The director's.	00:16:49
	Zone map itself.	00:16:50
	Doesn't change.	00:16:52
	We don't redraw the boundary.	00:16:53
	We just record against the title.	00:16:55
	Of the property, saying that it's been the determination.	00:16:57
	That the zone boundary for this property is R143.	00:17:00
	Because of this discrepancy.	00:17:04
	Issue with the zone map.	00:17:06
	Zone map itself doesn't change.	00:17:08
	So.	00:17:11
	Can I?	00:17:12
	Make sure I'm following this sort of.	00:17:14
	Legal argument, which is.	00:17:16
	City ordinance does not allow zone boundaries to be established by parcel line.	00:17:18
	Boundaries. It doesn't allow it.	00:17:22
	It doesn't allow it in this.	00:17:26
	Parcels case.	00:17:28
	Because of the way the location of the Creek.	00:17:29
	But as an appeal authority, we can make.	00:17:32
	Zone boundary determination is outside the standards of.	00:17:36
	Within city code.	00:17:38
	Because the implication is.	00:17:40
	An appeal authority can see if.	00:17:43
	There are nuances or contexts that aren't.	00:17:45
	That don't fit into city code.	00:17:49
	And in this case it seems like.	00:17:51
	There are.	00:17:53
	And it sounds like they're not they're.	00:17:54
	There's a small number of other parcels across the whole city that would be affected by a similar.	00:17:57
	Situation.	00:18:03
	And not to say that this isn't.	00:18:04
	Presidential.	00:18:06
	For treating someone the same way.	00:18:08
	The same exact issue or same very similar issue came before.	00:18:10
	But you're not a body that.	00:18:14
	Publishes your opinions.	00:18:18
	You know, and releases them and they're binding or anything like that like a normal court opinion from an appellate court would	00:18:19
	be.	00:18:22
	We're not looking at.	00:18:27
	The potential impact of all of this?	00:18:28
	We're looking at just this one parcel.	00:18:30
	Because.	00:18:33
	The city is.	00:18:34
	You know most of the other. My understanding is the other three properties that are.	00:18:36
	That are potentially impacted by this.	00:18:40
	Aren't.	00:18:43
	Their backyards is what I understand.	00:18:48
	Already. And they're not.	00:18:50
	There's not roads.	00:18:52
	You know nearby to do anything with them.	00:18:53
	It sounds like there will be.	00:18:55
	At some point.	00:18:57
	Right, right.	00:18:58
	The other three.	00:18:59
	Could be.	00:19:00
	The other thing they're further north of on Hillsdale is that you're talking about, right?	00:19:03
	Yeah.	00:19:07
	To deal with that. So it's not.	00:19:09
	We don't foresee any impact.	00:19:11
	Other than.	00:19:14
	If someone has a desire to make it uniform across their parcel.	00:19:15
	To deal with it, that's the only.	00:19:19
	We don't anticipate any development on those other three, I guess is the point.	00:19:21
	Are there?	00:19:27
	Just to follow suit on that, are there any other?	00:19:28
	Zone boundaries.	00:19:32
	That are.	00:19:35
	Geographical not just Creek, but any kind of other.	00:19:38
	Zone boundaries that exist within holiday that don't just follow parcel line that you are aware of.	00:19:41
	No, but I bet they're.	00:19:48
	They exist.	00:19:50
	That we're aware of now.	00:19:51
	Is it likely? Is it?	00:19:55
	Possible. Highly likely that there may be other.	00:19:56
	Unknown situations.	00:19:59
	Yes.	00:20:02
	I think to tie into Angela's question too about.	00:20:05
	Kind of the interpretation.	00:20:09
	I think with Paul's question as well with.	00:20:11
	How codes are written is that we have.	00:20:14
	Pretty strict standards of like This is the code this is.	00:20:17
	This is what the standard is.	00:20:20
	You very often or occasionally will run into situations.	00:20:22
	That don't necessarily fit within what the code allows.	00:20:27
	The state has regulations for variances.	00:20:33
	Variances would be.	00:20:36
	Some umm.	00:20:38
	Possibly switching?	00:20:41
	Setbacks or lot? Wits or other things?	00:20:44
	Based off of natural features of a property.	00:20:46
	We talked about this a little bit in another subdivision where.	00:20:50
	The Creek was in the backyard.	00:20:53
	And there was.	00:20:55
	With a Creek, that is one of those natural features that would.	00:20:57
	Be a situation where a variance would apply.	00:21:01
	Similar kind of an application here. Variances go to an appeals officer.	00:21:06
	They go through.	00:21:11
	Look at what those checks are.	00:21:13
	And then make a determination of.	00:21:15
	Yes, this is.	00:21:18
	What? Uh.	00:21:20
	The code says and this is where the variation would need to apply because of this.	00:21:21
	Kind of unique feature that is outside of what the norms would allow.	00:21:26
	So on Staffs.	00:21:30
	Staff's job is to interpret what the code is. The code sets the standard. Staff interprets that.	00:21:32
	And.	00:21:38
	When there are kind of outlier type situations.	00:21:39
	That's when it goes to an appeals authority, and that appeals authority has been the ability to look at that.	00:21:43
	Particular situation.	00:21:48
	And say.	00:21:50
	Maybe the code a strict interpretation of the code?	00:21:52
	Doesn't apply here. There needs to be some variation to what the code would allow.	00:21:55
	So that's the.	00:21:59
	Kind of appeals process, that's why.	00:22:00
	We have our appeal authority in our table and in this situation for zone map interpretations, that is you.	00:22:03
	Well.	00:22:12
	I think.	00:22:14
	You know, at this point might be a good idea just to have the applicant come up and answer any questions that we might have.	00:22:15
	And then we can.	00:22:21
	Come back and.	00:22:23
	Ask any additional.	00:22:24
	Questions of city staff, loan process code, policy, etc.	00:22:26
	But I think it might be a good idea just to kind of tap into the applicants, if the Commission agrees on that so.	00:22:31
	With that if I can invite the applicant.	00:22:38
	Representative up to maybe just answer a few questions for us.	00:22:40
	I'm Jaron Acton. I'm.	00:22:46
	With JUBM the designer.	00:22:47
	So, umm.	00:22:52
	Can you just maybe give me a quick backdrop into the why behind the what?	00:22:54
	With this, right? Yeah, so.	00:22:58
	What we're faced with is.	00:23:01
	We're trying to develop this property but.	00:23:04
	The owner owns several properties surrounding.	00:23:07
	That.	00:23:11
	And where the conflict is.	00:23:13
	Is with the.	00:23:15
	The acreage that we're trying to interpret which will determine.	00:23:17
	How many lots were able to?	00:23:20
	Develop on this.	00:23:22
	Unfortunately, that.	00:23:24
	That portion that sits across the Creek, which is less than an acre, it's only 3/10 of an acre.	00:23:26
	So there's it can't really be developed.	00:23:31
	Either side.	00:23:33
	You know, no matter where we put that.	00:23:35
	That land, but.	00:23:37
	If we're able to.	00:23:38
	Keep it with the majority.	00:23:40
	Of the estate that is the.	00:23:42
	The the property that's 90% in the R143.	00:23:44
	Then we're able to take that acreage and it allows us to get the.	00:23:48
	Density.	00:23:53
	That were.	00:23:54
	We're seeking.	00:23:55
	And just to make sure I understand, so with the R 143 E of the Creek.	00:23:57
	If this is.	00:24:04
	We're talking 3/10. What's my math on that?	00:24:05
	76000.	00:24:09
	Feet successful?	00:24:10
	Oh, it's 13,000.	00:24:13
	Yeah. So basically this is going to limit you to two structures instead of three. If you can incorporate that with the 143, that's	00:24:14
	what it comes down to, yeah.	00:24:19
	And the property has historically been used like it hasn't necessarily been an isolated piece of property that's just sat over	00:24:25
	there that's never been used.	00:24:29
	The owner.	00:24:34
	Of the property has historically used, it has a footbridge.	00:24:35
	Crossed it. It has been operating as if it was part of that.	00:24:39
	Parcel that sits on Holiday Blvd.	00:24:43
	And you came into the possession of the property?	00:24:53
	With this zone.	00:24:56
	Weirdness happening with the time of purchase, right? Yeah.	00:24:57
	OK, Yeah, it did. And it's, I mean.	00:25:01
	We looked.	00:25:03
	You know, the historic maps and that.	00:25:04
	You know that.	00:25:06
	The configuration of the property has been that way for.	00:25:07
	At least 20.	00:25:10
	30 years.	00:25:12
	OK. All right.	00:25:13
	Other questions for the applicant.	00:25:15
	All right, we'll have you sit down. Yeah, If you don't mind. We did talk to. I know one of the things that came up was, you know,	00:25:19
	if you were the adjacent property owner.	00:25:23
	You know, what would you think about this? And we've actually, the owner has had a conversation with.	00:25:27
	Him and he is in support.	00:25:32
	Of you know what we're trying to do.	00:25:33
	Here SO.	00:25:36
	All right. Thank you.	00:25:37
	Let me ask our attorney if.	00:25:45
	Is there a way, if we are so inclined, to vote?	00:25:47
	To approve this.	00:25:51
	To write it in a way that.	00:25:53
	Doesn't reject.	00:25:56
	The directors.	00:25:58
	Decision that simply says in spite of that decision.	00:25:59
	There's a. This is an equitable.	00:26:02
	Thing to do there.	00:26:05
	So, in other words, we.	00:26:07
	What I don't want to do is say you're wrong, because it really technically you can only appeal if there's an error in the	00:26:08
	interpretation of the planning code.	00:26:12
	Or abuse of discretion.	00:26:16
	And I don't think there's either one of those.	00:26:18
	But this still thing seems like the right thing to do.	00:26:21
	And there's a way to.	00:26:24
	Say that we, the director, was right.	00:26:28
	But here's our decision.	00:26:31
	I think we can work something out on that.	00:26:34
	I do think it's important that.	00:26:38
	You know, not ever be a precedent that.	00:26:39
	Either he abused his discretion or.	00:26:43
	That he was wrong.	00:26:45
	I think he didn't do either one of us.	00:26:46
	Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why?	00:26:50
	They couldn't.	00:26:53
	Pursue the same thing they're trying to do as a.	00:26:55
	Like private Urban Development and say, hey, we'll just leave that little corner of the Creekside as green site.	00:26:59
	Green open space for the city, if you let us.	00:27:05
	You know, build 3 houses over on the east part of the property.	00:27:08
	I'm asking the city. This is his expert opinion.	00:27:17
	And that I think that's more of the reasons why we're at this point.	00:27:20
	Before that that type of application is brought to you, they need to provide.	00:27:23
	Where that zone boundary is and how those calculations are made.	00:27:28
	And you know, eventually down the road when you talk about like a PUD situation, yes, that could occur.	00:27:34
	Absolutely.	00:27:39
	But we have to get to that point 1st, and that first hurdle is determining what sides.	00:27:41
	And what densities are being implemented?	00:27:46
	Sides of the zone boundary and what densities for each are being empty.	00:27:49
	I have a question for staff.	00:28:01
	So if this doesn't get approved.	00:28:03
	What's their?	00:28:05
	Course of action.	00:28:07
	They just have a grandfathered.	00:28:08
	Property that's.	00:28:10
	Substandard based on the current code.	00:28:11
	They could still develop on that.	00:28:14
	Well, yeah, I mean, they have to use the area that's on the West side of the Creek and in.	00:28:18
	Gross calculation.	00:28:22
	For whatever density allowance is all the whole thing there. It just doesn't.	00:28:24
	So they're short by what, 20,000 square feet?	00:28:28
	It doesn't matter. I mean, they're short.	00:28:31
	So.	00:28:36
	They couldn't do anything on the property.	00:28:37
	The West side of the Creek, then.	00:28:39
	I don't think there's a threat for any development.	00:28:41
	Piece right? It's on that side. I'm just trying to figure out if they have another course of action if this doesn't.	00:28:44
	Get changed or.	00:28:49
	I think the next course of action would be.	00:28:50
	Rezone the property.	00:28:53
	I see. OK.	00:28:56
	That's right.	00:28:57
	I'm not gonna lie.	00:28:58
	I mean, it feels like.	00:29:03
	Rezoning it all to R143.	00:29:04
	Would just follow.	00:29:08
	The most sensible part of the process to me, because then you go through the zoning process, there's a public hearing and if	00:29:09
	everybody, including the neighbors, says hey, great, we love that, it's awesome. Do it.	00:29:14
	Check the box. Moving on.	00:29:19
	You know what I mean?	00:29:21
	But uh.	00:29:23
	And I get it.	00:29:24
	Like, but I also, this is one of those kind of and I, and I mean no disrespect, I understand your tent, but it's kind of one of	00:29:25
	those buyer beware situations.	00:29:29
	If you're going to say, well hey, I'm going to buy this and then I want to change what I bought.	00:29:33
	Like maybe make sure you can do that before you buy.	00:29:38
	But that's just me.	00:29:42
	Possibly.	00:29:44
	The outcome is the same, I mean, if we grant the appeal tonight.	00:29:48
	But it just simplifies everything for everybody.	00:29:53
	Seems to me.	00:29:56
	You know they're going to build 3 structures.	00:29:58
	On the east side of the property.	00:30:00
	I mean.	00:30:05
	Why don't we just keep it simple?	00:30:06
	I can be convinced.	00:30:12
	I would love to hear just individual thoughts that start down here. Commissioner Barrett, what's going through your mind right	00:30:13
	now?	00:30:15
	I'm I agree.	00:30:19
	Simple, simple.	00:30:20
	10.	00:30:22
	Mr. Gong.	00:30:24
	I think in a lot of ways it makes sense. It's such a small proportion of the parcel.	00:30:27
	That's different.	00:30:32
	It, you know, being incorporated into holiday.	00:30:34
	Did this funky thing to the zoning that wasn't true before.	00:30:37
	I The two things that just bother me a little bit are.	00:30:42
	The idea that.	00:30:46
	You know, there's a strict, there's an interpretation.	00:30:48
	That there's a, there's the.	00:30:51
	The code. And then there's this process of not keeping the code if you ask nicely a second time.	00:30:52
	Which is, you know, and.	00:30:59
	And if it weren't a reasonable question.	00:31:00
	We would.	00:31:03
	You know, we would say that doesn't make sense. In this case, it seems like it does make sense.	00:31:03
	Umm, but.	00:31:09
	I don't love the idea of a bunch of people appealing the code, but maybe that's not. Maybe that's.	00:31:13
	Historically that hasn't happened, so maybe that's not something we have to worry about.	00:31:18
	I just also philosophically.	00:31:21
	Like having streams matter.	00:31:24
	As something that defines the.	00:31:28
	The parcels and defines the city and I think that's something.	00:31:30
	People value in holidays, so it's not.	00:31:34
	Turns out it's not that common. It's not.	00:31:37
	The, you know, determining a lot of zoning, but.	00:31:38
	I like that it matters.	00:31:42
	It's a different.	00:31:43
	Way of viewing the world if you say the stream doesn't matter the parcel.	00:31:44
	Lines matter for zoning.	00:31:48
	It's just a different way of saying how are we laying out our city and how are we?	00:31:49
	Viewing the natural.	00:31:54
	Things that we are building around.	00:31:56
	Are they part of what we have to consider or not?	00:31:58
	And while there are other things that we have to consider with this dream, such as.	00:32:01
	You know if you there are a bunch of permitting things if you ever want to mess with the water.	00:32:05
	Flood zones, all that kind of thing. It's not that they don't have to consider it.	00:32:09
	But it is a shift away from.	00:32:12
	What our code says which is.	00:32:14
	If it's sort of near a river, the river becomes the boundary and it matters.	00:32:17
	In a way for zoning so.	00:32:21
	I think that's an underlying philosophy thing that I don't.	00:32:23
	Love moving away from but I think in this case it makes.	00:32:26
	Sense to just.	00:32:30
	Put this little sliver in with the rest of it.	00:32:31
	Mr. Cunningham.	00:32:36
	I asked that question, Brad, whether or not we can write at night. The more I think about it.	00:32:40
	The more I think it's a bad idea. I think we're trying to rezone using the wrong process. We have other process that could either	00:32:45
	change the ordinance and.	00:32:49
	Change the Creek as if that's what the city wants to do, or they can come in and ask for a rezone.	00:32:53
	I the whole idea is that.	00:32:59
	You can only appeal if you believe.	00:33:02
	That you didn't make the correct interpretation.	00:33:05
	More of that.	00:33:08
	You know that.	00:33:09
	And that isn't true in my mind and so.	00:33:12
	No matter how skillful, you're right. If I don't know how you can't come out with the.	00:33:17
	A conclusion that.	00:33:20
	Does rezoning.	00:33:22
	And pretends that.	00:33:23
	That was an outcome that was anticipated.	00:33:24
	By the nature of the appeal, there's only.	00:33:28
	You know, the language of the appeal is pretty clear about what you have to.	00:33:30
	Allege and that.	00:33:34
	They didn't ledge either one of those. It didn't present any evidence about either one of those. They simply said.	00:33:36
	But this shouldn't have happened 25 years ago, and we didn't worry about it for 25 years. Now we want to.	00:33:41
	Building now, it's urgent.	00:33:46
	And then?	00:33:48
	Just so you're aware.	00:33:55
	Staff was the one that.	00:33:56
	Uncovered the issue with the.	00:33:58
	Bifur Bifurcation.	00:34:00
	And I don't. So no one, no one that owned the property was aware of that.	00:34:03
	Yeah.	00:34:06
	Yeah, I don't.	00:34:08
	Disagree with?	00:34:09
	What the outcome probably would be no matter which process they went through.	00:34:10
	But I don't think this is the right process to do that.	00:34:14
	So the issue is.	00:34:17
	We grant the appeal.	00:34:19
	And they built 3.	00:34:21
	Structures on the property.	00:34:23
	We don't grant the appeal and they bill 2.	00:34:25
	Is that what it comes down to? I don't think that's the case. I think the more likely if.	00:34:27
	If the Planning Commission does not grant the appeal or does not find in favor of the appellant, then.	00:34:32
	I think.	00:34:38
	And again, I'm putting myself in their shoes.	00:34:39
	They have the option of.	00:34:42
	Finally a rezone application.	00:34:44
	Right, so I don't think this is just a process that exists.	00:34:47
	Currently within the Citi code.	00:34:51
	Where the Planning Commission can sit in this?	00:34:53
	Form and function.	00:34:57
	To help address.	00:34:59
	This particular issue.	00:35:02
	So will they likely end up in the same place?	00:35:03
	You're going to be, yeah. So potentially how many times do you want this? If you have a rezone application, the staff is going to	00:35:06
	have you asking questions.	00:35:10
	Does it conform to the general plan?	00:35:14
	Is this a neighborhood characteristic type situation?	00:35:16
	All the usual questions you're.	00:35:19
	Probably asking yourself in the back of your mind anyway.	00:35:21
	And I like.	00:35:26
	Councilmember Gong was going with the fact that for all intents and purposes, we look at parcel lines.	00:35:30
	Or natural features that define parcel lines.	00:35:35
	If we can go back to that map.	00:35:38
	All the parcels all the way up until.	00:35:42
	About what's What's the South of Hilton?	00:35:45
	Probably around.	00:35:48
	50th South or so.	00:35:50
	All the all those parses are defined by the Creek.	00:35:53
	Except for this one.	00:35:57
	And that's correct. I mean, that's an excellent.	00:35:59
	Characteristic of holidays development.	00:36:02
	Overtime.	00:36:05
	What is this?	00:36:06
	Boundary.	00:36:10
	So for the purposes of creating a zone boundary between R143 and R187 in 1999 and 2000.	00:36:12
	Councils that everything on the West side is this zone.	00:36:20
	East Side is that zone.	00:36:23
	And defined by the Creek boundary.	00:36:26
	Well, everything that's on the East side.	00:36:29
	Especially especially for this one parcel.	00:36:31
	Was not taken into consideration that it owns land.	00:36:34
	On the other side of the Creek.	00:36:38
	That historically was already one acre zone.	00:36:40
	From the county zoning.	00:36:43
	I think.	00:36:46
	In you know.	00:36:47
	50s here.	00:36:48
	Retrospect, as I was.	00:36:50
	Interesting, but.	00:36:52
	We had to redraw the zone map. Yes, the Creek would be definitely the boundary.	00:36:54
	But it still would also fall a parcel lines of ownership.	00:36:58
	So that the property owner does.	00:37:01
	Owner of all of this property does own all within one's own boundary. It's not bisected by.	00:37:03
	So what is this?	00:37:13
	2 up from the 43 is that that?	00:37:15
	Like monastery.	00:37:17
	Or the nunnery or whatever that's called up there.	00:37:19
	The up one more.	00:37:23
	Big block.	00:37:25
	As the Creek running through it 2 smaller blocks of buddy that.	00:37:26
	Through our zone map today.	00:37:30
	Yeah.	00:37:35
	Is that all one property as well?	00:37:37
	Where it's R 187 on the West side and R 43 on the other.	00:37:40
	I don't know if there's a parcel line there or not.	00:37:49
	But yeah, that would be the Carmelites.	00:37:57
	And supposing for some reason whatsoever they were like, oh, Gee, we have to abandon and vacate this lot and we're going to sell	00:38:08
	it.	00:38:11
	Wouldn't we find almost an identical situation?	00:38:16
	If when that comes to pass, if someone comes in and wants to develop that.	00:38:18
	Yeah, their parcel line follows the Creek. It ends at the Creek there.	00:38:22
	So it's a different parcel on the other side of the Creek.	00:38:27
	And even those subdivisions that are accessed.	00:38:33
	From Holiday Blvd. as you cross.	00:38:35
	The bridge.	00:38:38
	The rest of that lot is on the other side.	00:38:40
	The zone boundary.	00:38:42
	What? Sorry, which one are you talking about?	00:38:47
	Yeah, it's this one right here.	00:38:51
	So shady.	00:38:53
	Is this in a subdivision plat except this back lot?	00:38:55
	That's on being on the other side of the Creek. It's in the Arlen 43 zone.	00:38:59
	The property.	00:39:05
	This is all Carmelites right here.	00:39:17
	But all of those parcels and.	00:39:21
	OK.	00:39:24
	Are described.	00:39:31
	I see what you're saying.	00:39:42
	I see what you're saying because.	00:39:45
	Usually.	00:39:48
	I mean, an appeal would say the process was wrong.	00:39:49
	I'm going to say the process was correct or not correct.	00:39:53
	As sort of, but in this one we also get to say the outcome was.	00:39:56
	I mean, an appeal letter says For these reasons we think the interpretation should follow a historic operating.	00:40:02
	That's the appeal.	00:40:08
	And that and.	00:40:10
	I think.	00:40:12
	If we agree with their argument, then we have to say that.	00:40:13
	The director's interpretation was wrong.	00:40:17
	The director's interpretation.	00:40:19
	Appears to be solidly based on the existing ordinance.	00:40:21
	So.	00:40:26
	With the way this.	00:40:27
	Appeal is worded.	00:40:29
	Could that and the legal can chime in on this? Could that potentially open up a can of worms for people to say, well, that's not	00:40:32
	how it was zoned back in the day?	00:40:37
	So we disagree with the zoning that exists now.	00:40:42
	Because you've already overturned one that back in the day was zoned something else and you changed it and you agreed to change	00:40:47
	the zone for me now because we proved.	00:40:51
	Through our appeal that.	00:40:55
	It was not.	00:40:58
	And that's to assume that.	00:40:59
	We did that so with such intent that the back.	00:41:01
	Quarter of that property was intended to be.	00:41:04
	A2 acre zone.	00:41:07
	It wasn't intended to be a 2 acre zone. I get it. I'm just like I said, looking into the.	00:41:09
	Crystal ball of.	00:41:15
	Cans of worms.	00:41:17
	Because because on the appeal this particular process and this particular parcel have identified.	00:41:19
	Some opportunities for improvement.	00:41:25
	And I'll leave with you what I mean by what we're talking about, but I would not be surprised if you will see some.	00:41:30
	Land use regulations that may be amended.	00:41:36
	As a result of.	00:41:41
	And to Commissioner Cunningham's point, if we say.	00:41:45
	Sorry to be sticklers. We get it. The outcome is going to be the same. And yeah, I mean, it sucks, but go through the other	00:41:48
	channel, get the thing rezoned because that's the process that we have in place for.	00:41:54
	This.	00:41:59
	Would that help negate?	00:42:00
	Some of those potential.	00:42:02
	No, Maybe.	00:42:04
	Here's the other Here's the other point. Carrie, would you mind bringing up 1311 again?	00:42:07
	1311 is talking about the.	00:42:15
	The interpretation of the zone map.	00:42:17
	Because John, maybe.	00:42:20
	Talking to about some of the.	00:42:22
	Instances where we operate under a spirit of the zoning law. Umm.	00:42:26
	Or that we do have some flexibility on some things, some things that we don't have flexibility on with.	00:42:30
	And that's.	00:42:36
	A common thing that she used to experiences as well.	00:42:37
	But 1311?	00:42:40
	The boundary location rules. Is that what you're looking at?	00:42:48
	Yeah. So, OK.	00:42:51
	Yeah, 1311.	00:42:52
	050 there's three situations.	00:42:54
	Or a zone map or the following rules apply one.	00:42:56
	You follow where the streets are.	00:42:59
	Alley blocks, etc.	00:43:01
	Two, you follow natural features like public parks, rivers, canals.	00:43:03
	Waterways. Railroads.	00:43:08
	ETC but three.	00:43:12
	Planning Commission still has a role here.	00:43:14
	Where those two were unclear.	00:43:18
	It's still the Planning Commission that still isn't to interpret.	00:43:20
	To be the final interpreter.	00:43:22
	Interpreters of the zone map.	00:43:24
	Because.	00:43:27
	Dishes and was made.	00:43:27
	Based upon B.	00:43:30
	Essentially, uh.	00:43:31
	It's not necessarily unclear.	00:43:33
	But there is.	00:43:36
	There is an ability to interpret the zone map outside of the rezone process.	00:43:37
	But is this the statute that controls this appeal?	00:43:45
	Or is that a freestanding authority? Because, like I said, because of B?	00:43:48
	I rendered a decision.	00:43:53
	And that needs to be appealed.	00:43:55
	Because there's not.	00:43:58
	We could have brought to you a request to interpret.	00:44:00
	Clarity, but if you were to read A&B.	00:44:03
	Maybe it's pretty clear that that's where. Yeah, I agree. That's clear.	00:44:06
	And in the I mean in the letter it says if you believe the determination rendering this document represents an error in the	00:44:13
	interpretation of the planning code.	00:44:16
	I don't think it does.	00:44:20
	Or abuse and discretion by the Community Economic Developer Development Director.	00:44:21
	I also don't think it does.	00:44:25
	An appeal may be filed.	00:44:28
	And the staff is recommending that we grant the appeal.	00:44:29
	Interesting.	00:44:33
	But.	00:44:34
	Also variances to standards.	00:44:35
	Typically have the requirement spirit of the code is observed.	00:44:39
	I mean, say that one again.	00:44:44
	And substantial justice is served.	00:44:49
	OK.	00:44:56
	Well.	00:45:00
	Commissioners, do we have?	00:45:01
	More thoughts to Mull over. Questions for staff, Questions for council.	00:45:03
	Questions for each other.	00:45:07
	Or do we feel like we want to take a vote and see where everything falls?	00:45:09
	I just don't think there's any reason to complicate the issue.	00:45:28
	And I think what complicated.	00:45:38
	I mean, it's not like we're in Salt Lake City. We don't have tons and tons of properties.	00:45:39
	This is this matter is going to come before us again.	00:45:46
	If we don't grant it.	00:45:51
	And we don't have 500 properties.	00:45:52
	Where we're going to have to.	00:45:56
	Evaluate this issue.	00:45:57
	Moving forward.	00:45:59
	So those are my $0.02.	00:46:00
	This is also the process staff recommended too, so.	00:46:05
	Yeah, I support that.	00:46:11
	2.	00:46:14
	What do you think? All right, well, I'm just going to this is Commissioner Roach and I'm just going to make a motion.	00:46:16
	To I don't have the motion on here, do I? That's OK, I'll wing it.	00:46:24
	To approve a zone boundary.	00:46:28
	Map interpretation.	00:46:32
	Brought forth by the applicant as outlined in the packet.	00:46:36
	So that the.	00:46:42
	Use of the.	00:46:44
	Zone can be R143.	00:46:45
	For the entirety of the parcel.	00:46:49
	That works.	00:46:52
	This is Commissioner Baron, I second.	00:46:54
	All right. And with that, we'll call for a vote. Commissioner Baron. All right.	00:46:56
	Commissioner flaunt aye.	00:47:00
	Commissioner.	00:47:01
	Aye, Commissioner.	00:47:03
	Hey, why you got to do that?	00:47:04
	Umm.	00:47:10
	Just for clarity.	00:47:14
	You have to have 4.	00:47:16
	I know.	00:47:17
	He painted me into this corner.	00:47:19
	That's all right.	00:47:22
	I'm going to.	00:47:28
	Put in here a.	00:47:29
	Reluctant.	00:47:31
	Based on.	00:47:33
	The fact that the outcome.	00:47:35
	Ultimately.	00:47:37
	End up with the same.	00:47:39
	And this will just.	00:47:41
	Simplify the process as recommended by staff.	00:47:42
	Well, recognizing.	00:47:45
	That.	00:47:47
	The alternative options are probably best in unique situations of appeal.	00:47:49
	So that public comment can be had.	00:47:55
	Two done.	00:47:59
	Perfect.	00:48:02
	And with that.	00:48:04
	That's all we have on the agenda. I'll make a motion to adjourn. All in favor say aye.	00:48:08
	Aye.	00:48:12