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Event transcript
All right, Well, good evening, everyone. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work session. 00:00:10
In attendance tonight we have. 00:00:17
Two commissioners absent. We have Commissioner Font with regrets and Commissioner Prince is not here. All the commissioners are 00:00:19
present with city staff and legal counsel as well. 00:00:24
And we have. 00:00:29
Four items on our agenda. The 1st is a public hearing. 00:00:31
And then we have an action item for a subdivision and then the continued hearing item for the. 00:00:35
Lighting text, amendment, amendment and some minutes. 00:00:43
So with that, we will turn over to city staff to tell us about the Treasure Chest Learning Academy, which is item number one. 00:00:47
Thank you, Chair. Roche application for you tonight is an application for a recognitional use permit. 00:01:00
Home occupation. 00:01:06
Preschools. 00:01:07
Micro schools now are something that well your schools that have always been of allowed use. 00:01:09
Just underconditional use permit. 00:01:15
Simply because every operation is a little bit different. 00:01:17
Primarily, you have some very sick standards that a preschool has to adhere to. Those standards are written in your staff report. 00:01:21
You can address those individually with the applicant and to see how those situations are being provided. 00:01:29
On site. 00:01:36
Staff report has been provided to you with a recommendation as well. Put some additional findings if. 00:01:37
Recommended Conditions. 00:01:43
If you derive to that situation. 00:01:46
But fairly straightforward conditional use permit request. 00:01:48
There has been an emailed. 00:01:53
Comment that came in yesterday. 00:01:55
If you would just wouldn't mind. 00:01:57
Whomever has taken the item can just mention that the residents name. 00:02:00
And say that we did receive Hill's comments. 00:02:04
Other than that, I mean happy to take some any questions on that side. 00:02:10
Commissioners, any questions about this one for? 00:02:17
I just have a quick question. So as far as the noise factor of a. 00:02:21
School. How does? How is that monitored? I know that most of it's kind of ambient noise anyway. 00:02:26
But uh. 00:02:32
When kids get excited, there's the noise can kind of elevate. 00:02:33
How do we make sure the neighbors don't have? 00:02:38
That all the time or. 00:02:41
Can you kind of explain to me the thought process and? 00:02:43
How we can help the neighbors also, yeah. 00:02:46
So specifically in the ordinance it talks about having. 00:02:49
Noise generated between the hours of eight and seven. 00:02:53
So if we're getting complaints on noise before that time. 00:02:56
Our code enforcement officer will go out and actually monitor the situation with the noise meter and determine whether or not it's 00:03:01
a nuisance violation. 00:03:04
To get around that, usually preschools have an upgrading start time that's much later. OK, 9:30. 00:03:09
Or later. 00:03:16
And definitely before 7. 00:03:18
So is this a common problem or? 00:03:20
I have lots of preschools in the city and I've never had a. 00:03:23
OK. OK. All right. Thank you. 00:03:27
Alright. 00:03:36
So it looks like we have a few discussion points suggested by city staff in the packet on this one. 00:03:40
All right. Any other questions on this one? Thank you. 00:03:48
We'll move for the record, the Vice Chair, Prince, is present. 00:03:54
We can really be official and get things done now. 00:03:57
All right. So with that, we'll move into the next item on here, which is the both Thorpe and Wren Hollow subdivision. 00:04:01
On Annabelle Circle. 00:04:10
Right, Yeah. So for this action item, the applicant is basically proposing to. 00:04:15
Amend the subdivision boundaries for. 00:04:21
They're both all subdivision and the Grand Hollow subdivision, primarily because. 00:04:25
They own pieces of property. 00:04:30
That are located within these two subdivisions. 00:04:33
They just want to move one. 00:04:36
Which is the one within the rental subdivision? 00:04:38
Into the bottom of subdivision. 00:04:41
So that's basically what that application is about. 00:04:44
The the Planning Commissions mandate is just to oversee. 00:04:48
That the amendment to this subdivision. 00:04:52
Is just done accordingly. 00:04:56
So this is a. 00:05:02
Very check the box seeming item to me. 00:05:06
The Commissioners, any questions on this one? 00:05:11
This is just a drainagement, right? 00:05:13
So or they need the additional land for the. 00:05:17
For one property versus the other. 00:05:21
I I wouldn't say they'll. 00:05:24
Necessarily need that for any construction project or anything like that. 00:05:27
They are puzzled differently in terms of the parcel numbers. 00:05:33
There is an existing home. 00:05:38
But what this application is primarily doing is just moving. 00:05:40
The area that is indicated in the red boundaries into the new subdivision. 00:05:44
OK. 00:05:49
Just to clarify, this wouldn't even be before us if it wasn't moving into that subdivision. If it was just a standard lot line 00:05:52
adjustment, you guys would have just handled this in the planning office exclusively, right? That's correct. 00:05:58
Stress a lot. Minor. 00:06:04
OK. 00:06:06
So we just get a play. That's awesome. All right, Any other questions on this one? 00:06:10
Moving right along. How about on the lighting? Text them because I know I spent all night reading and I'm excited. 00:06:15
I'm sure you did. 00:06:22
I think at this point. 00:06:25
Well, as staff we can walk through each individual. 00:06:27
Points and highlight some of the specific elements of this lighting. 00:06:30
I think it would be appropriate at this point to get. 00:06:36
Temperature from the Commission. 00:06:40
Whether or not we should be moving forward. 00:06:43
You feel like this is something that we should be having within the city, these types of regulations. 00:06:46
Where they haven't existed previously. 00:06:52
I think now is a good time to take temperatures and Commission just to ensure that moving forward is appropriate. 00:06:54
Collectively. 00:07:01
And then after that, then we can get through some of the higher level. 00:07:02
Sort of subjective elements like lighting levels, heights of. 00:07:06
Parking lot poles. 00:07:10
Those types of things that might be. 00:07:12
Changed up a little bit. 00:07:14
OK. Do we want to take that pulse? 00:07:20
I think we want to wait till the item. 00:07:24
And then at that point, if you're feeling comfortable enough moving forward. 00:07:27
You still have the public hearing open. 00:07:32
Take whatever comments are available to you and then most likely close it. 00:07:34
Any questions on the text at first passed from anyone who were in the work session though. 00:07:42
I like the idea of. 00:07:51
Should we even go down this path first? 00:07:52
Right. And that's just. 00:07:54
This seems to be. 00:07:56
Overkill. 00:07:59
With any ordinance, there's always that option. There's a do nothing, there's an end. 00:08:00
Or you can you know. 00:08:05
I'll just start over certain legislature who finds a problem and solves it when no one else can find the problem. 00:08:07
It's a one person problem. 00:08:15
Discussion. That's more. 00:08:17
Some time and except in this case, this ordinance won't solve the one problem. 00:08:19
I think for me, when I just look at it, I mean, which kind of ties into the fundamental question you're asking. 00:08:25
It's the legislation of like under glare annoyances crossed out and it says nuisance due to and it's. I feel like nuisance and 00:08:31
annoyance are synonymous subjective feeling words and. 00:08:37
I have a lot of annoyance and nuisances in my neighborhood that haven't been legislated yet, so. 00:08:44
Yeah. 00:08:51
Ultimately, when you have. 00:08:52
A nuisance situation that comes down to one individual in my department, which would be code enforcement. 00:08:54
Making a determination. 00:09:02
Of course, collectively with the TRC. 00:09:04
And then? 00:09:07
Whatever that determination might be with the applicant or the one that's causing the issue that the nuisance, there's always an 00:09:08
appeal process. But. 00:09:12
And that kind of would get fleshed out. That's why we have Mr. Kristofferson with us. 00:09:16
But nuisances are always subjective and that's why we want to make sure that. 00:09:21
And there's some objective standards in the code that says yes. 00:09:25
The light pulls too tight or yes, from this point I might promise on your neighbor's property I can see the light bulb. 00:09:30
Those types of things easy to enforce on. 00:09:37
It's just the residences in question. 00:09:40
Will be prior non conforming use. 00:09:43
I'm not sure how this will solve anything. 00:09:47
Wants to make any major change to their property, Yeah. 00:09:50
That requires updating. 00:09:53
Those light pictures to the code. 00:09:56
Yeah, but 50 years from now? 00:09:58
It will be very impactful. 00:10:00
And your grandchildren will be grateful. 00:10:02
At night. 00:10:05
This is like planting an oak tree. 00:10:07
You plant an oak tree for your grandchildren, not for you. My man with the tree reference. I love it. My, my, my real fear is 00:10:09
we'll be the first. 00:10:13
And after about the third city, copies of legislature will take away our authority to make these rules. 00:10:18
Yes, we will have done something. 00:10:26
We want to stop anything. 00:10:29
Yeah, I'm not sure these do work. These do work in. 00:10:31
Communities that aren't built out. 00:10:38
That aren't. 00:10:40
I know of several up in Summit County and other mountainous counties that do have mountainous. 00:10:42
Cities that do have. 00:10:48
You know dark skies provisions in their lighting code and. 00:10:51
People are very happy with them. 00:10:54
Perhaps if they're interested in solving this problem, they should solve it in their city. Well, many have, and it's working. 00:10:56
But but it's keeping it as is, right? It's. 00:11:04
It already is dark skies because most people don't have these massive. 00:11:07
Lightings that are LED, floodlights that. 00:11:10
Like a basketball courts and the neighbors backyard and the other neighbors back. 00:11:13
I think it's a worthy goal. I just think that. 00:11:18
We're trying to solve a specific problem. 00:11:23
With a specific house and this won't do it. 00:11:26
I don't think. 00:11:30
Well, I am looking forward to the spirit of discussion this evening when we get to that item, so this is going to be fun. 00:11:33
All right. And then lastly is approval of minutes and since we've got several before the official meeting starts. 00:11:41
Did anyone notice anything in the minutes that they? 00:11:51
Had pause question or felt like amendment needed? 00:11:55
That they have seen on 1st pass. 00:11:59
Everybody's just. 00:12:04
Good looking, all right. We love it. 00:12:05
All right, Well, that's the. 00:12:12
That's our agenda in a nutshell. So any questions on anything else? Or are we good to end the work session and make sure we mute 00:12:14
our microphones before we? 00:12:19
It to the official meeting. 00:12:23
All right. Well then we will end that work session. Thank you. 00:12:26
Done. 00:13:50
All righty. 00:13:59
Back from break, ready to party. Here we go. Good evening everyone and welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission. 00:14:01
We have. 00:14:08
Oh, now we have. 00:14:10
Oh, but Commissioner Font in attendance and city staff and council present. 00:14:13
And we have 4 items on our agenda this evening. But before we roll into any of that, we do have an opening statement we read at 00:14:18
the public. 00:14:22
And I have asked Commissioner Barrett if he would read that for us tonight. 00:14:26
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen board. 00:14:30
Whose function is to review land use plans. 00:14:34
And other special studies. 00:14:37
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map. 00:14:39
And ordinance changes. 00:14:43
And approved conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:14:45
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:14:48
Rather, acts on the applications as they are submitted. 00:14:52
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except that publicly noticed meetings. 00:14:55
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location, the nature of the neighborhood. 00:15:01
Existing structures and uses. 00:15:07
Related to the proposed change are noted. 00:15:09
Decisions are based on observations. 00:15:12
Recommendations from the. 00:15:15
Professional planning staff, the city's general plan, zoning ordinance and other reports, all by verbal and written comments. 00:15:16
And by evidence submitted. 00:15:25
All of which are part of the public record. 00:15:26
Thank you very much, Commissioner Barron, I appreciate that. 00:15:30
And with that, we have a public hearing scheduled tonight for our first item, which is the conditional use permit for. 00:15:33
The Treasure Chest Learning Academy. 00:15:41
And at this time, I'd like to invite city staff to come up and work from where they're sitting. It's OK, I'm good either way. 00:15:43
But if you can just give us a reminder of what? 00:15:51
This item is about. 00:15:54
I would like to respect the position. 00:15:57
Thanks, Chair. Roach, we have an application for you tonight to consider for conditional use permit. 00:16:03
Just a reminder there in the city ordinance, there's permitted uses of conditional uses. 00:16:09
Conditional uses are essentially allowed uses. 00:16:15
Don't necessarily have specific standards that. 00:16:18
Can be written in to accommodate every type of situation, so therefore they are conditional. 00:16:21
In this situation we have a. 00:16:28
Preschool. 00:16:30
It's clearly incidental to the primary use for an application before you tonight. 00:16:31
You have a review by the technical Review committee, but specifically I want to point to you. 00:16:36
Put your attention to section of ordinance which is 13.76720. 00:16:41
Which is in your staff report. It has a list of. 00:16:47
A few items in there that are. 00:16:51
Have been considered standard. 00:16:53
Non negotiable types of situations for preschools to be. 00:16:55
Provide operation for. 00:17:00
Those elements in there should be moderated through a discussion with the applicant to ensure that those are can be provided. 00:17:03
And additionally, staff has provided you with some additional. 00:17:09
Conditions if you see fit to apply those as well. 00:17:13
Specifically in these situations we're looking for. 00:17:16
Pick up drop off parking situations. 00:17:19
That are amenable to the community is still. 00:17:23
Maintains the primary characteristic of the home being. 00:17:26
And your staff report as well. There's some aerial shots of. 00:17:30
What could be considered parking? 00:17:35
Stalls in the driveway. 00:17:37
Would be appropriate for this use. 00:17:39
And then any other questions that you can? 00:17:42
Would like to ask the applicant you're definitely. 00:17:45
To do so. 00:17:48
And also have the public hearing available. 00:17:49
To you for additional comment. 00:17:51
We did have one emailed comment from a resident, so I point your direction to that one. 00:17:54
If you want to read it in just as you generally. 00:18:01
You're welcome to do so. 00:18:04
Staff does it does recommend approval of this conditional use permit with some findings that are provided to the count or the 00:18:06
Commission. 00:18:10
And then some recommended. 00:18:14
Conditions to consider. 00:18:16
I'll be happy to take any other questions you might have. 00:18:18
Any questions for city staff? 00:18:22
Commissioners. 00:18:24
All right. Well then I think we're ready to have the applicant come up and. 00:18:25
Go into this a little further. 00:18:30
Hello, my name is Ashley McIntosh and I am. 00:18:41
Yes, applying for a conditional use permit in order to do a preschool in my home. 00:18:46
This is actually something I have dreamt of. 00:19:02
Sorry. 00:19:08
This was something I had printed on most of my adult life. I taught preschool. 00:19:13
For several years and it was my most favorite job. 00:19:19
And, umm. 00:19:23
And I've been working with small companies and I just feel so impressed. 00:19:27
To do this right now. 00:19:34
And so I'm taking a leap. 00:19:35
And here I am. 00:19:37
I submitted my application and I. 00:19:40
I intend to do it in my basement. We. 00:19:45
We've done a addition on our home and we have a. 00:19:48
Big room down in our basement with a separate entrance and. 00:19:52
That's where I intend to do it. 00:19:56
As far as traffic. 00:19:58
My application you will see I intend for traffic to flow. 00:20:01
From 20th East. 00:20:08
Going West down El Dorado Drive. 00:20:10
I intend for parents to stay in their cars and. 00:20:13
I will be there and be able to receive the children. 00:20:18
We're going to the classroom and then at the end of the day we will come out together. 00:20:22
And parents will do the same thing, come down out West on El Dorado. 00:20:27
And I will be there to ensure that the child gets into the right car and they will continue driving. 00:20:33
South on El Dorado. It's an L shape as you can see. 00:20:40
So that is my intent. 00:20:43
That I have. 00:20:46
Lots of support from my neighbors I have. 00:20:48
Supplied many letters. 00:20:51
From neighbors that are in support of it and. 00:20:54
Yeah, I don't know. What other questions do you have? 00:20:57
All right. Well, I appreciate that. 00:21:02
So just initially to make sure I understand because. 00:21:05
Parking and pickup is usually one of the bigger. 00:21:09
Talking points on these type of conditional use permit OK. 00:21:12
Umm, so how many children are you anticipating? 00:21:16
Having so. 00:21:21
According to Holiday City and the state of Utah, I can have up to 16. 00:21:25
With me and another employee. 00:21:32
If it is just me, it's up to eight children. 00:21:34
So your goal is 8 but potentially up to 16 by code? Yes. I mean I'm hoping to have 16 so I can employ another employee. 00:21:40
Yes, right now. 00:21:52
The Max would be 8 at the current time, yes. 00:21:54
OK. And I'm just thinking in terms of how many vehicles and are all of these children going to be arriving and leaving at the same 00:21:57
time every day? 00:22:02
So yes, so you can have up to 16 per class and I would have potentially two classes a day, maybe one. 00:22:06
It depends on how many kids I get enrolled. 00:22:15
So each class could have 16 drop off time would be. 00:22:18
9:00. 00:22:24
And pick up would be at 11:30 and then drop off again would be at noon for an afternoon class and then pick up at 2:30. 00:22:25
OK. That helps kind of give me some backdrop on that. I appreciate it. 00:22:34
Umm, other commissioners questions for the applicant, why she's up? 00:22:39
Yes, correct. Yep. 00:22:48
Thank you. I saw the hours of operation. 00:22:55
What's the yearly schedule? Does it follow an academic? 00:23:00
Telling her whether it's a summer break so I would be following Granite school districts calendar. 00:23:03
But the exception to that is I intend to start in September. 00:23:09
So that first week of September and end the last week of May. 00:23:13
OK, so you have school breaks. 00:23:18
Correct, correct. And then potentially, you know, maybe doing some summer camps, but it wouldn't be all summer. 00:23:21
OK, great. Thank you. Yep. 00:23:29
Thank you. 00:23:32
Umm, any other questions from the applicant? 00:23:33
All right. Well, at this point, we'll go ahead and have you have a seat. We'll probably bring you back up in just a second, 00:23:38
though. 00:23:40
And with that, this is a public hearing, so we will open it up for public comment at this time. 00:23:43
Those members of the public that wish to make comment on this. 00:23:50
We'd ask that you state your name and address for the record and then please keep comments to roughly 3 minutes and if you're. 00:23:53
Making a comment after someone else, we would ask that you try not to repeat any comments. 00:24:00
Or points that are made. 00:24:06
So with that, we will invite anyone up that wishes to come speak on this at this time. 00:24:08
Done once, twice. 00:24:16
All right, quick and done. All right. So with that, we'll close the public hearing. 00:24:18
And. 00:24:23
Seeing as how there were no public comments, we can. 00:24:24
Move forward, I think, with discussion and. 00:24:28
Commissioners. 00:24:32
Thoughts on mess? 00:24:34
This is Commissioner Prince. It seems pretty straightforward to me. 00:24:36
I don't see any real concerns that have not been addressed. 00:24:41
Either in the neighbor meeting or in the narrative as written up and then as presented. 00:24:46
I guess for me my only concern is just thinking about 32 trips a day if you have 16 kids times two classes, 64 vehicles. 00:24:53
Well, yeah, that's that's. 00:25:02
An impact? Well, it certainly is, but it's not going to start out that high, right? 00:25:05
So just being considered neighbors, I think that would be the only thing is just anything that could mitigate the. 00:25:12
Potential. 00:25:18
Impacts from that? 00:25:20
But do we have city staff or comment on that? 00:25:21
Well, because the news is allowed directly at that next. 00:25:26
We do have, sorry. 00:25:31
We do have anti idling ordinance in the city. 00:25:42
If you could directly tie that to this. 00:25:46
Application or not? 00:25:49
Usually. 00:25:52
From experience of dropping my own. 00:25:53
Child off to a home based preschool. 00:25:56
It's really not much of A styling situation. 00:25:59
Does it make sense to have a window? 00:26:06
Maybe 10 minute window so that we're not having a memory. 00:26:09
All. 00:26:12
Actually spread out a little bit. That has been proposed before in previous applications, yes. 00:26:14
So you don't have all traffic coming at once. 00:26:22
All right. 00:26:29
Having a preschool located on my street, yeah, that's where it was. 00:26:31
Just had everything on here. 00:26:38
Yeah, my street is. You've had everything on your street. 00:26:43
I would recommend. 00:26:48
That group if at all possible having different drop off times. 00:26:51
Just because there have been times trying to get in and out. 00:26:56
Of my area that. 00:27:00
Parents that come early to pick up. 00:27:03
They wait in line. 00:27:05
And the whole street is backed up with cars and the people that live there can't get in and out. 00:27:08
So if you can stagger that a little bit and make sure that. 00:27:15
That traffic problem doesn't become an issue. 00:27:19
I think that's pretty important. 00:27:24
And for me, I think that would address any concerns around the traffic side of it. Just something that you know. 00:27:29
Because I in my mind and vision got. 00:27:35
Don't live on an L street, but my. 00:27:38
Live off of a busy street. I'm just thinking how many cars could back up before it starts to be a problem. 00:27:41
Especially if you have everybody trying to get there right at 8:00. 00:27:48
I'm just really making sure that the pair understands it's a thorough drop off so they're not all trying to. 00:27:53
Make a you turn to go back up El Dorado. 00:28:00
And would be pretty imperative in this situation. 00:28:03
As far as the findings listed on, I think we have it on slide page four of the. 00:28:08
Application or the? 00:28:15
Yes, it's page 6. 00:28:18
Just looking at these findings, are there any of these that. 00:28:22
We feel that all of staff's recommendations are substantiated, should be included or their concerns that some of these are. 00:28:27
Not necessary. 00:28:33
And if the applicants had a chance to see those, any concerns from the applicant on any of these? 00:28:37
That we're considering. 00:28:42
You can just nod yes or no. 00:28:44
OK, no concerns from the applicant on any of the. 00:28:47
Suggested conditions or on the findings that are listed on here. 00:28:51
Commissioners and concerns. 00:28:56
On these I think. 00:28:58
One of the public comments did have a question about. 00:29:02
Noise that is addressed with the hours of operation Which? 00:29:05
Technically, you're 8:00 to 7:00, but are of course more limited in the actual hours of operation that it's intended and. 00:29:10
I would also assume that. 00:29:18
The activities won't be 100% outside. 00:29:20
So even though 16 kids. 00:29:24
Generated a significant amount of noise. It seems like the. 00:29:26
The IT would be time limited. 00:29:29
You know, sort of short versus high frequency. 00:29:33
So so. 00:29:37
It might be a concern, but it seems like it's addressed in the conditions as well, I think. 00:29:39
Good call. Thank you, Commissioner. 00:29:45
This Commissioner, Prince I. 00:29:50
There was mention in one of the emails or somewhere a question about. 00:29:51
If there would be a sign. 00:29:57
In the public, in the neighborhood meeting, the applicant said she might put a. 00:29:59
Like a little sign on the House. 00:30:05
But. 00:30:07
We've got a thing here as a suggested condition of approval to say no advertising signs. 00:30:09
Where are we at on the? 00:30:15
Does she get a small sign? Does she not get a sign? I think we followed the ordinance, no signs and the ordinance is no signs, OK. 00:30:18
I think if you paint your house numbers and rainbow. 00:30:25
That might give it away too, so just a suggestion. 00:30:30
I'm not getting there. I'm not going there. Yeah. 00:30:36
Not worth it. 00:30:40
Would that be an issue for the applicant to not have a sign? 00:30:42
In keeping with the code. 00:30:49
In the paperwork from Holiday City it says you can do a name please. 00:30:51
The nameplates are. 00:31:00
House number or address? 00:31:02
With three square feet, they're not very, it's not very big. It's it's intended to be 4. 00:31:05
Yeah, yeah. 00:31:10
Well, I think if the applicant. 00:31:15
Is on board with everything suggested and the recommendations, and there's no additional concerns from. 00:31:17
Commissioners, then I would invite anyone who's ready to make a motion. 00:31:24
To do so and. 00:31:30
You could probably typing and time if we just. 00:31:31
Call out everything that's in here and maybe bring up the mention of the staggering and pick up drop off times in that. 00:31:35
So can I ask staff a question? 00:31:43
Does it help to risk the hours of operation? 00:31:45
Like she's identifying. 00:31:48
From 9:00 to 12:00 for 9:00 to 2:00. 00:31:51
Do we want to say that? 00:31:55
So that the neighbors have some predictability on. 00:31:56
That the school be over it? Or is that just over it? 00:32:00
I'm just thinking of the neighbors and this one guy who's had a problem with some of the things that he. 00:32:05
And visions could happen. 00:32:11
But it doesn't say when the hours of operation will be done. 00:32:13
It just goes with the code and I don't want to over stress this but. 00:32:17
Well, if the applicants discuss or. 00:32:21
Considering having summer camps that might be different hours or if she's going to have two classes. 00:32:24
I love, I really like the use, I just want to be considerate of. 00:32:31
Potential impact and how a neighbor might have a little bit of recourse. 00:32:35
Does it matter to do that? 00:32:40
I think if it's inside the ordinance. 00:32:42
OK. All right. 00:32:44
I mean, any other commissioner thoughts on that? Don't we need dictate? 00:32:47
Well, I just know that people appreciate the fact that it'll be over with. The three, let's say. 00:32:50
Even though the ordinance gives till 5 or something. 00:32:55
But OK. 00:32:58
I'll be quiet. No, no, it's a it's a good question if we do in, in this. 00:33:01
State the proposed hours of operation is 9:00 to 3:00 instead of the ordinance operation. Ordinance allowed. 00:33:07
Operation is 8:00 to 7:00. 00:33:15
How hard is it to she wants to make a summer adjustment. How hard is that to change? So yeah, that's the issue. So if you put them 00:33:18
in a condition and to modify the condition, you have to come back before that. Yeah, because the traditional use runs with the 00:33:23
land. So my recommendation would be. 00:33:28
Let's give him the flexibility. 00:33:34
The ordinance allows. 00:33:37
Knowing that, knowing that there is a consideration of neighbors to. 00:33:40
Well, I, I think, I mean, from everything we've seen, there's no public comment here, no opposition to it. And not only that, 00:33:44
there's. 00:33:48
Multiple, yeah. 00:33:52
Letters of support that came with the application. In addition to there's one. Again, there's one. 00:33:53
Is one against that one? I didn't see that. Was that one that was in? 00:33:59
Oh, I apologize. During the public here. I don't know if I was supposed to bring it up at the public hearing or not. There was one 00:34:04
e-mail that was sent in and the paraphrase was they had concerns about traffic and noise. I believe it was an adjacent neighbor. 00:34:10
OK. Yeah. It's not that we're not concerned about that because they are, but the challenge is. 00:34:16
That these are permitted uses with conditions that are. 00:34:23
You know within the ordinance, right? So now if the applicant volunteers and says I'm good with at 2:00. 00:34:27
OK, but the applicant doesn't. 00:34:33
I don't think we have the ability to impose that. 00:34:37
More restrictive. 00:34:41
Then what the ordinance allows. 00:34:43
The ordinance requires. 00:34:45
What about days of the week? That's one thing I didn't check on is that would this preclude them from operating Saturday, Sunday 00:34:46
if it's in line with? 00:34:50
Well. 00:34:55
You wouldn't necessarily preclude, but typically preschools aren't open on The Saturdays and Sundays. 00:34:57
Normal, normal weekday hours of operation. I think our home based businesses are. 00:35:03
Does the ordinance say, John, did you find that? 00:35:07
I'm looking at I believe for home based businesses there is an hours of operation. 00:35:12
If you want to reference the code itself. 00:35:17
If it's thirteen and five. 00:35:22
Based upon ordinance. 00:35:26
The other point that you may want to consider is we've got lots of these in the city. 00:35:31
So it might be easier if we just kind of. 00:35:36
Read them all the same instead of having different different conditions of conditions on. 00:35:39
Based on location and things like that. 00:35:44
Just a thought. 00:35:47
My view has always been, you know, it's nice that we have this e-mail that if the person has suggested what is a condition. 00:35:49
That would solve the problem he raises. 00:35:57
But he hasn't proposed any solution. He just. 00:36:00
Says don't do it. 00:36:03
Yeah, and that and so. 00:36:05
I'm not overly sympathetic to a person's. 00:36:07
Suggestion that they don't like it, but they there's no conditions under which I guess this person would approve it so. 00:36:11
Yeah, sure. 00:36:17
The other thing in conditions. 00:36:19
Excuse me, conditional uses is that? 00:36:23
In order to impose a condition, we need to have an objective standard. 00:36:26
That we can identify it, right? We can't just say well. 00:36:31
The next door neighbor doesn't like it, so we can't do it well. 00:36:36
I know that that's true, right? I'm not. I'm not trying to minimize that, but that's not what the law says the law says. 00:36:40
If it's if it's in the list of uses. 00:36:46
In a use table in the zone. 00:36:49
And it's got conditions you have to have. 00:36:51
You have to have. 00:36:54
Conditions that are objective, that you can enforce that are. 00:36:55
You know, understandable for all parties, right, the applicant, but these also conditions aren't, it's not a question of whether 00:36:59
or not you approve it as to whether or not. 00:37:03
You can identify the reasonably anticipated detrimental effects and apply a condition that mitigates that. Doesn't eliminate it, 00:37:07
but mitigates it. 00:37:10
Right, right, so the staggering windows of drop off times. 00:37:14
I think that is perfectly. 00:37:18
You know, not only is it enforceable, but is reasonable. 00:37:20
To eliminate stacking and, you know, difficulty in entering and, you know, other neighbors entering their driveways and things of 00:37:22
that nature. 00:37:26
That's a reasonable condition. Hours of operation is a reasonable condition. 00:37:30
You know within within the code, right? But. 00:37:35
Again, if the applicant is willing to. 00:37:38
Have a narrower window. 00:37:40
And they sure, I have no problem with that. I don't think if they agree to it, then that's one thing. If they don't agree to it, I 00:37:42
think we're limited to the hours of operation that's in the. 00:37:46
In the. 00:37:51
Appreciate that, Council. Thank you. 00:37:53
All right, so. 00:37:56
I moved on. 00:38:00
This is Commissioner Prince. I'm prepared to make a motion to approve. 00:38:08
The application by Ashley McIntosh for the Treasure Chest Learning Academy Preschool. 00:38:12
An in home preschool located at 1895 E El Dorado Drive in the R18 zone. 00:38:17
Based upon the findings as listed in the staff report. 00:38:23
And subject to the following requirements that there be two spaces in the driveway for parking. 00:38:27
Associated with the preschool operation. 00:38:33
A single employee from outside the house. No advertising signs. 00:38:36
The you shall be subject to an initial fire and building code inspection and compliance. 00:38:41
And that the applicant obtained a business license from the city of Holiday. 00:38:47
In which and that the applicant will consider a method to stagger pickup and drop off. 00:38:55
I second the motion. All right, thank you, Commissioner Golden for a second. So we will move to a vote. Start down here, 00:39:04
Commissioner Baron Aye, Mr. Gong aye, Mr. Prince aye, Mr. Luczynski, Mr. Cunningham Aye, and Chair Roche votes aye. So with that. 00:39:10
Thank you for taking care of our kids. 00:39:18
All right, wonderful. Thank you very much. And with that, we will now move forward with our action item on Bothorp and Renhollow 00:39:22
Subdivision. 00:39:26
And we will invite city staff to. 00:39:31
Remind us with this. 00:39:33
Phone actions all about. 00:39:35
Yeah, thank you very much. I'm Justice 24, city planner The. 00:39:41
Canadian Economic Development Department. 00:39:45
Now this action item I need to. 00:39:48
Reemphasize that. 00:39:52
This is an action item due to the city and state mandate. 00:39:54
That. 00:40:00
Necessitates that whenever there is an amendment to. 00:40:03
Subdivision. 00:40:07
Which would. 00:40:09
Directly impact the plant itself, The subdivision plant itself. 00:40:10
We present that to the Planning Commission. 00:40:15
As their learning is 1/3 and that checks that there's subdivision amendment is amendment is done correctly. 00:40:18
Now the property in question here. 00:40:26
The applicant owns 2 pieces of property. 00:40:30
Now the main property. 00:40:34
Is located on 4794 S. 00:40:36
Anibal Circle. 00:40:42
Now that the property owner owns the the abutting lot to the South. 00:40:43
Now this property is approximately 0 point. 00:40:49
09 acres, which is a little bit shy of 4000. 00:40:53
Square feet of property. Now what this area of land is is that for the city? 00:40:57
Ordinance it doesn't meet the definition of. 00:41:02
A lot. 00:41:05
For the for the city ordinance definitions now that this area of land is also not buildable. 00:41:07
Because it's used. 00:41:16
It has an easement, a storm drainage easement. 00:41:18
That occupies this area of land, which is the 0.09 acres of land. 00:41:22
Now what the applicant is basically proposing to do is they're proposing to move this area of land from the Randall subdivision. 00:41:28
Into the portal. 00:41:36
Subdivision and that's. 00:41:38
Primarily what what's being proposed? 00:41:40
To be done. So they're submitting this application before the Planning Commission. 00:41:42
For approval to this subdivision amendment. So in principle it's essentially an amendment to both subdivision parts. 00:41:48
Making sure that we take out. 00:41:56
That 0.09 acres of land from the. 00:41:58
Rental a subdivision to. 00:42:02
Both our subdivision. 00:42:04
The the city staff. 00:42:07
And the technical review committee. 00:42:09
Provided some findings. 00:42:12
On this proposed application. 00:42:14
Which is found in your report. 00:42:16
So per the release from the zoning department. 00:42:19
Fire division building codes and everything. 00:42:23
Everything has been approved. 00:42:26
By the city's technical review committee for approval. 00:42:29
So that's what this application is about tonight. 00:42:32
I'm open to any questions from the Planning Commission. 00:42:36
Just one quick note as I'm looking at this. So this is going the parcel is being. 00:42:40
Put onto or. 00:42:47
Just to be clear. 00:42:49
Is it creating just one parcel? 00:42:51
No. So it's going to stay as a separate easement parcel. It's just going to be attached to the. 00:42:53
Whatever this is House North on the honorable court, right? Yeah. So there is no creation of any new lots, no adjustments in the 00:43:00
pre existence size or shape. 00:43:04
Of these two lots, it's just moving one from. 00:43:10
One subdivision into another, That's basically it, OK. 00:43:13
Just want to clarify on that. So it's still staying this individual parcel of? 00:43:17
Space. 00:43:22
Just attached to a different neighborhood. Yeah, the same address, different parcel numbers. It's still text. 00:43:24
By the county, just to make sure that once this amendment is done, it's still recorded for the county. 00:43:31
It's it's what this process is about, OK. 00:43:38
Perfect. Next question, SO. 00:43:41
We're moving it from one of some vision to the next one. 00:43:45
It's an illegal lot the way it currently is, right, Because it's just don't shake your head. I'm just. 00:43:48
Speaking out here because based on the lot size, it doesn't meet the current lot size. 00:43:54
So are we bringing it into conformance by doing? 00:44:00
OK. The area itself was part of that. 00:44:04
Parcel for storm easement. 00:44:08
And parcels can be created over ground, but lots are completely different. 00:44:11
Lots have a determined right to them that persons do not have. 00:44:15
So this action did move it from 1 subdivision to. That doesn't constitute where it has to be. 00:44:19
Updated the action is that moving the property line from 1 ownership to the other? 00:44:26
Is it creates a disruption with the subdivision boundaries, Normally we will be able to handle something like this 00:44:33
administratively as a property line adjustment. 00:44:37
But because the property line itself is a subdivision boundary. 00:44:42
Moving that area from one side to the other. 00:44:46
Would constitute amending both class. 00:44:49
Doesn't create a lot or having that lot itself being. 00:44:52
A standalone lot as defined by state code, which entitles building rights. 00:44:56
It's a placeholder parcel for that easement, a strong drainage, OK. 00:45:02
So even after if this is to go forward, get approved and it moves from 1 subdivision to the next. 00:45:07
It's still a separate lot and they couldn't. 00:45:16
Try and create a single parcel inclusive of this. You can definitely combine them. OK, so it could be combined after it's moved. 00:45:18
OK I. 00:45:22
Problems what they're planning to do. 00:45:27
Now you could definitely, they could do that. I it's totally up to them. There are some benefits of keeping in its own parcel 00:45:29
because it's taxed at a different rate. 00:45:34
And I mean, the only benefit that I could see of moving it and then combining it would be maybe that you could do an addition or 00:45:42
at an increased property value because it's more square footage. 00:45:46
Possibly, yeah, the area is unusable. It has an infrastructure. I mean, I'm just trying to like, think through the logic of why. 00:45:52
Make any changes, you know what I mean so. 00:46:00
OK, I get it. That's all I wanted to clarify. Thank you. 00:46:03
Any other questions for commissioner from Commissioner, sorry for city staff. 00:46:07
All right. And do we have the applicant here that wants to come up and address this? 00:46:11
A helmet. 00:46:14
So the plan is the original plan when I came is to make instead of two parcels, make it 1 parcel. 00:46:21
So I don't want you to think that that's not what my plan is. 00:46:26
That's the plan, and it is because. 00:46:29
Existing proper the existing house I'm planning on tearing down and building another house, and the architect said that the 00:46:32
process would go smoother if it was too one person though 2 parcels. 00:46:36
But then. 00:46:42
Doing what would have been an administrative. 00:46:43
Then we discovered that one parcel. 00:46:46
Is in Red Hollow and one parcel is in Annabelle. 00:46:49
And so. 00:46:54
That's why we have to do subdivision amendments to move it from 1:00. 00:46:56
Side to the other. 00:47:01
The configuration of the. 00:47:03
Property. The owner who I bought it from, it's fenced, it's for all the neighbors. They see it as one parcel, so. 00:47:06
It's not. 00:47:14
Affecting the local neighbors. 00:47:16
They're fine with it. I talked to. 00:47:19
So I just wanted to. 00:47:22
I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding of what my intent is is that it will be. 00:47:24
One parcel, even if it means. 00:47:28
Taxes, it's very expensive process all around, so I'm just putting them on my tab so. 00:47:30
That's so if you have any questions, but that's the. 00:47:36
So I probably will have to do something else now, but the intent is you have to amend the two subdivisions. 00:47:41
But the plan is is to make it 1. 00:47:48
Merge the two. 00:47:51
Parcels means the smaller parcel into the larger parcel and the lot number will be the lot the larger parcel is. 00:47:52
But I understand. Gotcha. OK Any other questions for the applicant? 00:48:00
All right. Thank you for clarifying. Appreciate it. 00:48:04
All right. And this does not have a public hearing since it is administrative. So with that, any other questions for staff or 00:48:07
comments or is someone ready to maybe make a motion on it if they feel good about it? 00:48:14
I'll be happy to make a motion about this. 00:48:23
Hello, Mr. Cunningham, Motions. 00:48:26
To approve the subdivision Platinum Adeline application by Carolyn Colton. 00:48:30
For Bothorp and Wren Hollow. 00:48:35
An amendment to remove parcel 22-10-229-077. 00:48:37
From the Wren Hollow subdivision. 00:48:44
Add parcel 22-10-229. 00:48:47
077 to the Bothorp subdivision. 00:48:52
Located at 40. 00:48:55
94 S Annabelle Circle. 00:48:58
And they are 110 zone. 00:49:01
Based on the upon the following findings 1 development details. 00:49:03
Required for subdivision Amendments have been submitted and reviewed by the TRC to. 00:49:08
The proposed amendment to the law complies of the minimum width and area for single family home development in the R110 zone. 00:49:13
Three of the required submittals for subdivision amendment have been provided where applicable. 00:49:22
And have been found to be complete and acceptable for fire access. 00:49:26
Is existing and approved by UFA. 00:49:31
Five public roads and utility easements are shown on the plant. 00:49:34
Alrighty, this is Commissioner Brandon. I'll second that. 00:49:39
Perfect. So we have a motion in a second. We'll call for a vote. 00:49:42
We'll start down here. Commissioner Cunningham, Aye. 00:49:45
Mr. Prince aye, Mr. Gone aye, Mr. Baron aye, and Chair Roach votes aye. So with that it moves forward. 00:49:49
Unanimous vote. 00:49:56
And I would just say there's a lot of trees on that. 00:49:57
So remember, holiday loves us our trees, so if you can teach that, we love it. 00:50:00
Love it even more. 00:50:07
All right. Thank you very much. 00:50:09
OK. And now the moment we've all been waiting for the continued text amendment with a hearing still open, I don't see any members 00:50:12
of public so. 00:50:16
Before we get into the how, why discussion. 00:50:23
Would it be proper protocol to close the public hearing at this time? 00:50:27
Or after you have a discussion, maybe there might be something that comes up. 00:50:32
OK, fair enough. So we kind of started with this on the work session, but if you want to give us just a. 00:50:40
Quick reminder and then walk us through the. 00:50:48
That I guess fundamental philosophical steps before we get into the nitty gritty text of it all. 00:50:51
Sure. So an update from your previous meeting, the City Council has been reviewing this. 00:50:58
Specific draft for a few months around. 00:51:04
Specifically from issues that have. 00:51:09
Been found in Council Member Gray's area, which is District 5. 00:51:13
And specifically some areas of that neighborhood that. 00:51:19
Had been subdivided. 00:51:23
Oh, for those of us who don't, keep up. 00:51:25
Map of holiday in our brains. Where? What areas? District 5? 00:51:29
So District 5 is the largest district. 00:51:33
It because it has the least amount of number of population per capita. So you have. 00:51:36
Pretty much runs from Big Cottonwood Creek. 00:51:40
All the way down to the freeway. 00:51:43
And it encompasses everything from Highland Drive up to Canyon Cove, most of the Walker Lane area. Yeah. 00:51:45
Thank you. Yes. 00:51:53
So through the subdivision process, a couple of homes were built in an area that really had been substantially dark. 00:51:56
Newer homes built with more modern lighting fixtures to accentuate the landscaping and some fencing. 00:52:04
That's the situation and possibly some others could be thrown into the mix that. 00:52:13
Addressed light trespass in our residential neighborhoods. 00:52:18
Up until now. 00:52:21
We really haven't had many situations that warrant a code amendment. 00:52:23
It did warrant it warrant some enforcement on nuisance. 00:52:28
And we do have some records. 00:52:32
Usually that's average is about 3:00 to 5:00. 00:52:34
Situations or cases a year. 00:52:38
Our code enforcement will go, officer will go out. 00:52:41
Explain the concern that a neighbor might have. 00:52:43
May be derived to a solution and. 00:52:46
The fixture itself is modified in some way. 00:52:48
So that's kind of how the holiday has addressed. 00:52:52
Residential lighting concerns or nuisances. 00:52:55
Commercial is different. 00:52:58
Through a commercial site plan approval. 00:53:00
Planning Commission has complete authority over the review of that site plan. 00:53:02
And there always are. 00:53:06
Lighting requirements that come with all of those. 00:53:08
And you may or may not recall some. 00:53:12
Site plans will come with a Lumen study. 00:53:15
It's a site plan that has numbers all over it. 00:53:18
That has what? 00:53:21
The fixture itself would project light on for the surface of the parking lot, landscaping, et cetera. 00:53:22
So there would have to be a maximum number of lumens that could cross the property line going to a street. 00:53:29
That type of thing. 00:53:35
And especially on buildings where. 00:53:38
Architecture architectural lighting is is is what they wanted. 00:53:41
To accentuate the building itself. 00:53:45
So through those situations, the Planning Commission could visually see that determine if there's going to be a bike trespass 00:53:47
problem or nuisance factor. 00:53:51
And modify accordingly. 00:53:55
There has never been anything like that at the staff level as, for example, justice reviews, House plans. 00:53:56
For lighting standards or compliance. 00:54:02
So that's what's being proposed. 00:54:05
There are some elements in here that the Planning Commission could use. 00:54:09
In their during their deliberation of site plans, commercial site plans to be. 00:54:13
We've updated some terminology and. 00:54:16
And provide some additional guidance for like. 00:54:19
Parking light pulled heights and. 00:54:22
You know how far a parking lot, light pole, or light standard should be from a property behind of a residential neighborhood? 00:54:24
Those things might still be useful to you. 00:54:31
As you look through this forward. 00:54:35
Going forward, but specifically the 1384050 section. 00:54:36
Is all of the brand new residential lighting. 00:54:42
Standards, Regulations. 00:54:45
So specifically, there's some elements in there that we can discuss. 00:54:48
As far as Kelvin ranges. 00:54:53
Color ranges of lumens. You know how high a vertical wall? 00:54:57
Or sconces can be mounted on a vertical wall. 00:55:02
How high sport court lighting could be. 00:55:06
Et cetera. But I think as I mentioned before in the planning and the work session. 00:55:09
It might be a really good exercise to make sure the Planning Commission is feeling comfortable generally with the with the 00:55:15
ordinance approach. 00:55:18
In this manner. 00:55:23
And making sure that everybody is kind of on the same page. 00:55:24
Before we start making amendments to something that. 00:55:28
We may not want it. 00:55:31
Recommend. 00:55:32
In the whole hit me in the end. 00:55:34
That's a good strategy. 00:55:37
And I, I appreciate that. I'll just kick off here with the comment that I appreciate the dark skies. 00:55:42
Intent. 00:55:49
Because what I envision is. 00:55:51
These older not even just thinking Walker woods, but think like Meadow, more lane or. 00:55:55
You know, up the hill on Castro somewhere and you have a place where it's really tree and heavily forested area with a small 00:56:02
little house that's been there for. 00:56:07
Half a century or more. 00:56:12
And someone buys that lot and says, hey, I'm going to build my dream home here now and. 00:56:14
They're going to tear down all those trees and then they're going to put up a larger home and they're going to put lots of 00:56:18
lighting on their home because they're really proud of it and they want it to be secure. 00:56:23
Right. And now these neighbors who have been. 00:56:28
In the dark at night and enjoying stars suddenly don't get that anymore because they get the beacon as lit of the brand new home 00:56:32
that was built across the street from them. 00:56:37
And so I think something that mitigates that. 00:56:42
Maybe doesn't do anything for the non conforming that's already out there and exists, but I think the intent of that is important. 00:56:46
To keep in mind for what we want for our city. 00:56:53
Looking forward 203050 years from now. 00:56:56
The concern that I do have and there was a graphic you just flashed over on slide 96 there. 00:57:01
Is the mitigation of trespass of light into other properties. 00:57:06
If you look in the middle of this top graphic on here. 00:57:12
Is that a wall that has been built to prevent light from spilling outside the property? 00:57:16
I think that's assuming a fence line on the property. 00:57:24
OK. I mean that's that's where my concern would be is are we creating a situation with this ordinance? 00:57:27
Where instead of having open neighborhoods, we're now putting lots more fences and walls up. 00:57:33
So we can track light on the property for the resident to be compliant and conforming to this ordinance. 00:57:38
That's where I get a little bit skittish around it because I like the idea of enclosed lights, I like the idea of trying to reduce 00:57:46
glare and all the intent behind this. But what I would be really concerned about is now we have walls on every new property. 00:57:53
Whether it be right up to the sidewalk or 4 feet back or wherever it's at, but suddenly we have this giant walled off city so we 00:58:01
can have our yards lit up. 00:58:06
If that makes sense. 00:58:10
OK. I think, OK, I think, I think you're coming from SO. 00:58:12
For example, in that little, in that situation in the middle graphic. 00:58:16
If there hadn't been a fence there, it would been completely open between the neighbors, right? It might be compelled to put one 00:58:19
up because they're at the security lighting situation. 00:58:24
Right, OK. 00:58:28
Seems cheaper. You change your life. I agree but. 00:58:29
If they say, well I want to actually see my landscape at night and I feel really good about paying for the lighting on it, but 00:58:38
I've got to comply with cities rules so I guess I'll just put up a nice. 00:58:43
You know, cinder block wall with a nice facade facing me and everyone else outside can deal with it. 00:58:48
This is Commissioner Prince. 00:58:56
Comment that I I like the idea of pursuing some kind of a lighting ordinance. 00:58:58
As we're seeing as. 00:59:03
Older homes are torn down and new. 00:59:06
Big things are built with without any lighting guidelines from the city. 00:59:09
They can get a little carried away. 00:59:16
And I. 00:59:19
Having a tool. 00:59:21
Both for the city and for neighbors to maybe say hey. 00:59:24
Over and. So I'm in favor of considering. 00:59:28
Continuing to discuss. 00:59:33
The ordinance. 00:59:34
Mr. Cunningham, I know you have some concerns in the work session. 00:59:39
The counting with a couple of questions and maybe that will change my mind. So I live in an HOA with 92 units. 00:59:43
Do we have to submit a lighting plan? 00:59:53
For multi if you were to rebuild. 00:59:58
Well, no, that was this question. Not unless we. 01:00:01
Rebuild and what would be? 01:00:07
A rebuild that would require a lighting plan. 01:00:10
If we replaced all the everything. 01:00:14
If you were to worry about it, OK. 01:00:18
If we replace all the roofs on the. 01:00:22
On the existing HOA. 01:00:25
Complex. Would that require a lightning plan? 01:00:27
It's like a reroof, it's getting re shingled, that type of thing. No, I mean. 01:00:33
We were literally not not a. 01:00:38
We have cement. 01:00:40
Shingles. Yeah. Hey. 01:00:42
But you're virtually impossible to buy anymore. 01:00:45
When we run out of supply, we have. 01:00:48
There's been some discussion about. 01:00:51
Taking the wrists off 1 by 1 on the four plexes. 01:00:54
And replacing with modern roofs and the asphalt the structures underneath the. 01:00:58
So I wouldn't be reroofing. I mean literally. 01:01:04
Support would have to be replaced because. 01:01:08
Existing support. 01:01:11
It's way too long. 15 years old. 01:01:12
Yes, we wrote into this. I'm trying to find it. 01:01:15
We wrote into the ordinance and I think it's all tied to new construction. 01:01:19
I don't believe that was all under new construction. It would be considered upkeep and maintenance. 01:01:23
Is that is that in 1384020? 01:01:29
This new development, or existing development if it's. 01:01:32
Resulting demolition or expansion. 01:01:36
Or installation of any new after lighting that requires a building inspection for compliance. Those are the circumstances that 01:01:38
would trigger. 01:01:42
Needing to needing to compile the new code. 01:01:46
So anything that's brand new construction accessory buildings. 01:01:50
Any structures that would be tied to. 01:01:54
Whatever element. 01:01:57
That the like if you had a carport and there were security lights in the carport and that carport was proposed to be. 01:01:58
Either torn down or expanded upon. 01:02:04
Those light fixtures, the security lights will have to be updated. 01:02:06
And then expansion of land use and so like any sport courts that's expanded to maybe include a pool. 01:02:11
Or vice versa. Pool includes a pickleball court. 01:02:17
You would look at and require a lighting plan for what is going to be used for those poles. 01:02:20
If they're too tall now, they would have to be. 01:02:25
Science. So really it's an expansion. 01:02:28
The land uses or new construction. 01:02:31
That's related to the property. 01:02:34
What about? Can you explain something you said during the work meeting which was? 01:02:36
If. 01:02:42
There's a neighbor dispute. 01:02:43
A vapor. 01:02:44
You know a neighbor makes a complaint, the other neighbors out of compliance, but. 01:02:47
Is our existing at that point? Would they be subject to the new code where it's? 01:02:52
Determine that it is indeed some kind of nuisance. 01:02:58
No SO. 01:03:01
Continue as they were with bad feelings until one of them did construction. Now at that point, I know our code enforcement officer 01:03:03
would do as he as he had stunned. 01:03:07
Which would be. 01:03:12
Help both the property owner who's maybe. 01:03:14
Trespassing. 01:03:18
Understand the intent of the the ordinance and spirit and code. 01:03:19
Maybe help gain compliance that way. 01:03:23
If they're really vindictive, they'll probably just. 01:03:26
Tell us to go away and we would. 01:03:29
Have much teeth? 01:03:30
But in the past, our code enforcement officers have been pretty good at that. 01:03:32
Our residents have been generally. 01:03:36
Acceptable of what? What they're what they're doing is impactful. 01:03:38
Changing that situation. 01:03:42
That would that's what would be up to it would be sort of taking us outside the approach, but really no enforcement. 01:03:44
I see so so this will so these wouldn't resolve the disputes that exist now. I don't know how many of the. 01:03:50
Those are, but in the future it could prevent. 01:03:57
Some of the disputes? Ideally yes. 01:04:00
How many register? I mean, how many disputes do we have, complaints do we have right now on the books? 01:04:04
This year only the two that have been generated by this. 01:04:10
Code. 01:04:14
Last year there were, I think there were 5. 01:04:15
OK. And. 01:04:17
Have prevented those of. 01:04:20
If those places were in complaints and the couple I'm thinking of, yeah, because they were brand new security lights that were 01:04:22
installed. 01:04:25
The others were shooting neighbors in the. 01:04:29
Going to be fixed there. 01:04:32
Looking for an issue. 01:04:34
Because this is what I thought it was. 01:04:39
If you're having an issue with a neighbor, the first level is always just talk to the neighbor. But if you feel like you have to 01:04:42
call in code enforcement, what are the next steps? 01:04:46
And I feel like saying. 01:04:51
This wasn't true when you put your lights in, but now it is. We're trying to. 01:04:53
You know as. 01:04:58
Codified what it means to your thoughtful neighbor in this specific instance. 01:05:00
I think that is helpful. 01:05:06
I think it's helpful. 01:05:09
I hear you saying. 01:05:11
Legislating everything you can't. 01:05:14
But it does seem like this is a helpful. 01:05:17
Set of tools to have to say. 01:05:19
Here, here here considerations. 01:05:22
That you should think about when you're building something new. 01:05:25
Consider compliance. 01:05:29
And as a both as a future thing, but also as. 01:05:31
Conflict resolution tool. 01:05:34
I think this brings the code into the new technology of lighting too. 01:05:37
It's so vastly improved that. 01:05:41
Even the small. 01:05:45
Change of lights becomes could be a major impact. 01:05:46
Said the adjacent properties and so. 01:05:50
I appreciate the attempt of doing that. 01:05:52
It could be overkill, but. 01:05:56
You know, but there's some. 01:05:59
Are the. 01:06:03
Lighting stuff that's in here, Are they not part of the regular building code? 01:06:05
We are a step ahead of the building code. Is this currently been adopted in Utah because we're. 01:06:11
Like 10 years behind. 01:06:18
No, this. There's nothing like this in the building code. The building code will address energy efficiency. 01:06:21
And probably recommend LED lighting technology. 01:06:26
But it won't get into lumens and Kelvin scale and things like. 01:06:30
CS GO. 01:06:33
I don't think I'm opposed to the concept of giving good ideas to, you know, make things better in the future. 01:06:37
And that. 01:06:45
And then I think it's a little scary to read it. 01:06:47
And it sounds like you probably need to hire a lighting engineer to comply. 01:06:51
And that that's a costly. 01:06:56
And that's why I say when the legislature gets these things. 01:07:00
I guarantee you the developers will go and say there's another cost Holiday City wants. 01:07:04
You know that you're going to have to pay to have a lighting engineer to do a residential home. 01:07:09
Yeah, I agree and the Council agreed with you on that specific. 01:07:14
Element as well which. 01:07:19
In turn, they directed staff to ensure that for residential properties. 01:07:21
For single family house, duplex or. 01:07:26
Up to a multi family. 01:07:29
That our lighting professional. 01:07:31
Would not have to be required to be submitting that lighting. 01:07:33
Or multi family. 01:07:37
Project as commercial property they would employ. 01:07:38
Lighting engineer, but for single family houses. 01:07:42
They could come up with cut sheets. 01:07:45
Of the picture they'd like to install. 01:07:49
And something that's very easy for staff to ensure compliance on. 01:07:52
We can see that that light standard is 60, or we can see that the sofa lights are no more than 20 feet tall. 01:07:56
And the light bulbs are used are going to be at that 4000. 01:08:03
Warm. 01:08:07
Scale of Kelvin. 01:08:09
OK, that type. 01:08:11
Approachable. Yeah, I just happened to be at Home Depot yesterday. 01:08:13
Found that there weren't a lot of K ratings on it. There's still lumens. 01:08:18
So if I'm a citizen, who is being. 01:08:23
Really responsive to this and I look at the code I can't find a label on my box. 01:08:27
Other than 800 lumens. 01:08:33
Lumens is easy to find, usually they're only the boxes only say. 01:08:36
Daylight. 01:08:41
Yeah, yeah. 01:08:43
And. 01:08:45
So again, as we're going through this, you know. 01:08:46
If Joe Citizen can't read this ordinance and figure out when he goes to Home Depot. 01:08:50
Whether his light bulb complies. 01:08:54
In that. 01:08:57
And I mean. 01:09:00
I, I would, I was shocked 'cause I actually, you know, oh, yeah. OK, I'll look. You know, all the ones that we use in our complex 01:09:01
are 800 limits. There are no K ratings in that. They do say daylight. 01:09:07
Because we've decided we want daylight because we know the daylight looks like. Because it's white. 01:09:12
Instead of yellow. 01:09:17
But those are technical things, I think. 01:09:20
You know, would you feel better about the ordinance if it was in lemons instead of Kelvins? 01:09:23
Well, onto both the more information you can, you know. 01:09:29
I I don't want to scare people away from a new standard because. 01:09:33
When I go to Home Depot and they get the minimum wage employee and ask him which is a. 01:09:38
4800 K And they look at you and go, well this one says 800. 01:09:44
So those those are major actually two different things, right. So the lumens is the amount of light and then the Kelvin is the 01:09:50
color of light. I'm just saying when you go and buy, I'm doing in quality. 01:09:56
There are no K ratings on those boxes anywhere or on the shelves. 01:10:02
And I didn't test. 01:10:06
The worker because I'm not sure he even worked online. 01:10:09
No, we can, just like there are figures at the end of the code. 01:10:16
We can very easily place into it. 01:10:20
Now let me get into color of. 01:10:23
You can place a color scale at the end of the code. 01:10:28
As a graphic that can show you where the 4003 to 5000 lay in that. 01:10:31
Range. The problem is, is like I'm seeing on Brad's phone here. 01:10:37
Depending on the different type of monitor you're viewing it on, you're going to see that yellowish in a different. 01:10:42
Right. 01:10:49
Yeah. So generally I think the way that this is proposed. 01:10:51
The 4000 level is kind of right in the middle. 01:10:56
It's not into the whitish bluish hues and it's not very orangey amber. 01:10:59
It's generally right in the middle of her. 01:11:04
A normal light bulb could be. However, we could change that. I mean, that's just a placeholder. 01:11:08
We can put a scale in or a range. 01:11:12
The village has 3500 K is the color that. 01:11:15
All the lights need to be. 01:11:19
So if we had a range from 3500 to 4500, that might be. 01:11:22
Give some more flexibility to the homeowner. 01:11:27
But it may be better to just start with the. 01:11:31
Ordinance the fixture and trying to limit light trespass and worry about the color of the bulbs in the future like. 01:11:35
We can definitely do that. 01:11:44
I mean, I just kind of with Paul, like, I mean, it's just her commissioner cutting down. Excuse me. It just feels. 01:11:45
A bit. 01:11:52
Heavy. 01:11:53
To you know. 01:11:54
Say you can only have like I feel that's very HOA, you know, taking away my property rights when you have a light bulb that's too 01:11:56
yellow. Here's your ticket. Fix it. You know, like I just. 01:12:02
I like the bug lamp where I don't, you know what I mean. 01:12:09
We can run a draft but I just rested that so only the light trespass problem and the glare issue. 01:12:14
We can. We can write a version that addresses just really narrows it down to just those elements. 01:12:21
I've got a quick question on the R1. 01:12:29
For support court lighting is that any activity court. 01:12:31
The support court is a normal name and I didn't want people to. 01:12:36
Think that if I don't have a sport card, I. 01:12:40
Not regulated. 01:12:43
So if you have a pickleball court. 01:12:44
Is the zip code anything that would be a hard surface basketball OK? 01:12:48
Yes, yes, we do already have score court lighting in the code. 01:12:55
It's limited to an 18 foot light pole. 01:12:59
We're finding that might be a little too tall. 01:13:02
I like the 15 and I like to cut off at 10 too 'cause my neighbor's putting 1. 01:13:05
I don't really want to shooters. 01:13:10
Especially when, well, how many haven't you found that the real problem of all of these is that they always put their light? 01:13:14
So it's facing their neighbor and not them. OK if they put it on the inside of their fence facing their yard. 01:13:21
It would bring the height down, it would bring the you know, but all the nuisance ones are because. 01:13:30
They stick it up high and point it towards their name, put it on the House and it faces into the backyard and everybody else's 01:13:36
backyard, right and, and. 01:13:40
You know them. 01:13:44
And I I would love to have a. 01:13:46
A better way to define light trespass I realize. 01:13:48
Hard, that is, but. 01:13:52
When we deal with noise, we don't worry about wearing the property it comes from. 01:13:53
Or what's causing it. We focus on can you hear it? 01:13:59
Pass the proper a line. 01:14:03
Which simplifies enforcement considerably. And that and. 01:14:05
And I would like somewhere that has a one or two sentence definition of what is light trespass. 01:14:11
So that when neighbors are talking about, at least they are talking about the same thing. 01:14:18
I like that. I like that. Yeah, you've got to have that, that objective standard. 01:14:24
The problem with. 01:14:29
Any law needs to be. 01:14:31
Easily understood. It needs to have a clear purpose and it needs to be enforceable. 01:14:33
And if you can't meet those 3. 01:14:38
Probably shouldn't be regulated, right? Well, having been a coat person, I can tell you that if you take. 01:14:40
8 or 9 pages of this code. 01:14:47
And after 5 minutes discussion, explain to the person that in conclusion, the code officer thinks this violates the intent. 01:14:49
Of that, that is not going to speak soul blanning on and no judge is going. The judge won't understand it either. 01:14:57
I mean, he'll, he'll say, well, we're in here. What, what is the actual language that's being violated, not the the concept. 01:15:06
Or the language like. 01:15:13
Maintenance of a pleasant and soft ambiance. 01:15:16
I would love that when I'm doing traffic enforcement, you know, just like a safe and. 01:15:22
Not some noise you've driving, you know, and let me interpret that however I want as an officer and then? 01:15:28
I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest that that would come out. 01:15:36
I don't think that's. Yeah, that's just a purpose. Yeah, it's A and so let me have you like the. 01:15:38
Line 101. 01:15:44
We're talks about light triple. 01:15:46
And see if that's appropriate. 01:15:48
This is under the general standards for the entire ordinance. 01:15:55
You just say line 101101, so it'll be 1384040 B. 01:16:00
Onto or across any public or private street or Rd. 01:16:06
I mean, I have a security light that I put up a few years back. It's a motion light. It kicks on when someone comes up my 01:16:12
driveway. 01:16:16
Because I don't want my car getting broken into, right? 01:16:21
But that light makes it out to the sidewalk in the road when it kicks on. 01:16:25
So I would be out of compliance with that. And to be honest, I don't think any of my neighbors care if the street or sidewalk get 01:16:29
a little bit of light spilled onto them. 01:16:33
But if it was kicking on in the backyard and blaring into their window every time a cat walked through the backyard, I'm sure they 01:16:38
would be annoyed by that. 01:16:41
That excludes. 01:16:46
Private property. 01:16:48
It only talks about streets and roads. 01:16:50
So this this does not reach to. 01:16:53
The neighbors yard it only reaches, it only reaches to public and private streets and roads, but it does say within the property 01:16:59
boundaries. 01:17:04
But OK, but. 01:17:10
Designed to prevent glare onto or across any public or private St. It should be, shouldn't it be include or any private property? 01:17:12
I mean, that's, that's where the whole. 01:17:22
Nexus of this complaint is coming from is my private property, not the road, not the street. 01:17:24
Not your property, public property. 01:17:32
Yeah, I think it's kind of, I think it needs to be broader to include. 01:17:35
Anything other than their property. Their property. I like that. 01:17:40
Does Mill Creek City have an ordinance? 01:17:45
About lighting. 01:17:48
OK, because I've Cottonwood Heights, Murray, Mill Creek. 01:17:51
Sandy cause I've. 01:17:55
I on a committee first with the Skyline High School rebuild and we've had some issues with some neighbors to the north of the 01:17:58
school. 01:18:02
And in terms of light pollution from the tennis courts? 01:18:07
Into the neighbor's yard and people have been out there with light meters and Shields created and. 01:18:12
It's just been a. 01:18:18
So there's an ongoing issue and and I'm wondering. 01:18:20
What their language is, and I admit I have not looked it up, but. 01:18:25
Here's the problem with that situation. 01:18:30
The state code does not send any or does it require any? 01:18:32
Local compliance with municipal codes. 01:18:36
When a school district is involved. 01:18:39
Yeah, that sounds like this to schools. 01:18:43
Government property. 01:18:46
Churches. 01:18:48
OK, now. 01:18:49
A local church struggles outside this community. 01:18:52
With lighting problems everywhere. 01:18:55
OK. And without a doubt, that's the biggest issue comes up. 01:18:58
Height of the steeple and the lights, what time they go on and. 01:19:01
The fact that they light the building. 01:19:05
You know, and stuff like that. Oh yeah, there's no. 01:19:08
Yes. 01:19:12
Yeah, the school district is difficult. We had we ran into that problem with Olympus rebuild in their stadium lights. 01:19:15
You know, our council was very tactful in the way they approached the school district on making sure that those are. 01:19:23
Appropriately designed, but they didn't really get. 01:19:30
Yeah, Oh, I can appreciate the school district and the pain in the. 01:19:33
So do we want to? 01:19:40
Do we want to have staff come back to us then with update that doesn't involve the? 01:19:43
Kelvin Lightskill. 01:19:49
And focuses more on the housing of the light fixture itself and maybe clarify a little bit more around. 01:19:52
Neighboring properties versus street and sidewalk. 01:20:02
That I know what I'm hearing. 01:20:09
Is the ask from Planning Commission to staff? 01:20:11
So I'm not sure why we worry about the glare onto the street. 01:20:15
Can somebody explain to me why that's a big concern? 01:20:21
I think that's what we're that's at least that what I'm saying is that I don't think we are. 01:20:24
The private property boundaries and. 01:20:30
Like the concern is if it comes across the street into my property, right? Oh, so the street is like the street is the buffer. If 01:20:33
you hit the street, who cares? But if you hit my property now it's a problem. 01:20:38
It's their property. Understood. OK, thank you. Unless we're also worried about. 01:20:45
Traffic, I mean it's where hazardous for traffic. Are we going that far? Turn your lights off when you drive past my house. 01:20:49
To me it doesn't make. 01:21:03
Sorry, I'll stop trying. 01:21:07
Sorry, kind of just started the physical. 01:21:10
I'm not going to say what I'm about to say, so let me think first. 01:21:14
OK, OK. 01:21:18
State Member Tractor. 01:21:20
All right. Any other any other changes? 01:21:25
There's a numbering problem that needs fixing because we have. 01:21:31
840701080 twice I think. 01:21:35
Yeah. So if you start at line 273. 01:21:41
And 288 and then we replicate the numbering again. 01:21:46
At 3:23 and. 01:21:52
334. 01:21:54
Looks like I reordered yeah, and that gets picked up near the end. 01:21:57
And then I if we can discuss just for a minute down on. 01:22:03
3. 01:22:08
1. 01:22:11
Administration enforcement. 01:22:13
D&E. 01:22:16
Nothing in these regulations shall prevent filing an action for relief. 01:22:19
From light trespasser glare as a nuisance. 01:22:23
From other relief under other laws, I assume we're talking about civil. 01:22:27
That we're talking about. 01:22:32
Yeah, this is an appeal request. So once you have an enforcement action. 01:22:34
There's always an ability to appeal to a higher authority. 01:22:39
Enforcement. 01:22:43
Well. 01:22:44
I mean I may choose. 01:22:47
To simply file a civil nuisance against my neighbor. 01:22:48
And then as long as we. 01:22:54
You know this is about appeals. 01:22:57
I'm not. What is the intent of that language? Is that just to say? 01:22:59
You can just go straight, skip the city process and go straight to a civil nuisance, OK? 01:23:05
And if that's what we're saying, I don't think. 01:23:11
You know our long resident will know what you mean. I think that language on this say you you retain the right to take a civil 01:23:16
action. 01:23:21
And then? 01:23:26
The part that. 01:23:30
It will be most interesting where you get to suspend, revoke or require modification. 01:23:32
Of any lighting plan that is found and not being in compliance with this chapter. 01:23:38
Or that is causing nuisance conditions. 01:23:43
If you would want that responsibility, I, I. 01:23:48
Yeah, no one else is going to take it. Yeah, but no one else can take it. Maybe the council wants someone to have it other than 01:23:51
them. 01:23:54
They would just hear it on appeal. 01:23:57
That would be under my authority of my response. Yeah, OK. 01:24:00
You're a lucky man. 90% of what? Similar to your conditional use permit, you disapproved. If there's any violation of those 01:24:03
conditions, that's my. 01:24:07
OK. 01:24:12
All right. Anything else staff needs to take away from this so we can get to the minutes? 01:24:18
I just am not sure if we want to take. 01:24:24
The lighting temperature out because it makes such a difference about how the light feels. 01:24:28
You know, so how bright it is and where it falls. 01:24:33
But how bright it? 01:24:36
Feels about it appears is just so closely linked to the temperature of the light. 01:24:39
I don't know, I mean, I would appreciate it if Audi would quit putting, you know, whatever those xenon light bulbs in or whatever, 01:24:45
right. But like right, so I'm not I'm not fast to check that out because I think that. 01:24:51
They could for example switch the bulb and some of the problems would be solved without changing the shape of the light. You know 01:24:57
the effect on the neighbors. 01:25:01
Nuclear whatever where some problems would be have to be solved by changing the. 01:25:07
The white shape. 01:25:12
But if it's confined to their property. 01:25:14
The overall intent of this is in play. 01:25:17
I mean, if my neighbors want a pink backyard, like I'll be judgy, but you know, it's their backyard. As long as it's not making my 01:25:20
backyard. 01:25:24
So be it. Well, it's funny you brought that up. Has anybody driven by the assisted care center on? 01:25:28
Holiday Rd. just past 13th. 01:25:34
At night. 01:25:36
They have two or three light standards that are. 01:25:37
Purplish in color. 01:25:40
I don't understand. 01:25:42
Well, I've got a field trip, can I be a memory care? 01:25:44
Element. Just recall where you are. 01:25:47
But try by at night. 01:25:50
On the West End of the parking lot, all of the light poles are blue. 01:25:52
Blue lights. 01:25:56
You know, probably on sale. 01:25:58
OK, we can work on that. 01:26:06
All right. Thank you very much. Good discussion. 01:26:07
All right. And so that do I need to make any special motions to continue that public hearing read? 01:26:11
Yeah, just. 01:26:22
Might as well, OK. 01:26:23
So, umm, do we have to? We've got to vote on that too, right? 01:26:25
Yep. OK, so this is Chair Roach and I make a motion to continue the text amendment for the Outdoor Lighting Standards Item 3. 01:26:31
Until our next meeting so staff can work on the continued revisions. 01:26:41
And I get a second. 01:26:46
This is Commissioner Principal second that motion. 01:26:47
All right, we'll call for a vote, Commissioner Cunningham. 01:26:50
Hi, Mr. Gilchinski. Aye. 01:26:52
Prince, Hi Mr. Gong. Aye. Mr. Barron. Gerald Schills, Aye. 01:26:55
Moving on forward with it, great. 01:27:00
And then the last one is the approval of minutes from 2:18. We talked in our work meeting. Everyone who looked at it felt great 01:27:03
about it and had no revisions or adjustments. I read it and it felt like probably what happened, I don't know. 01:27:09
My memory is not as good as it once was. 01:27:15
And I was gone, so who knows? 01:27:18
All right, so those of us that were there feel good about it, all right? 01:27:21
So with that, I'll entertain any motions. 01:27:24
I make a motion to approve the minutes. 01:27:29
Thank you. 01:27:31
From February 18, 2025. That's thank you very much, Commissioner Hammond, Do we have a second? 01:27:34
Commissioner Barrett, thank you very much. We'll call for both. Mr. Cunningham? Aye. Mr. Wilczynski. 01:27:41
I wouldn't I? 01:27:47
OK, Commissioner Prince, Aye. Mr. Gone. Aye, Mr. Barron. Aye. Chair Rochelle. Aye. Done and done. 01:27:51
And with that, we are through the agenda. I will make a motion to adjourn. All in favor, aye, any opposed John and John, have a 01:27:57
great night. 01:28:01
And when is our next meeting? 01:28:06
It is the 50s. 01:28:08
Cool. 01:28:11
Just. 01:28:13
I know sun is still shining, let's go home. 01:28:15
I keep hoping that you know taxes this year I'm going to get a tariff rebate instead of having to file tax. 01:28:19
Somehow I think that's. 01:28:27
To analyze that. 01:28:30
I like the idea. 01:28:32
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Transcript

Event transcript
All right, Well, good evening, everyone. Welcome to the holiday City Planning Commission work session. 00:00:10
In attendance tonight we have. 00:00:17
Two commissioners absent. We have Commissioner Font with regrets and Commissioner Prince is not here. All the commissioners are 00:00:19
present with city staff and legal counsel as well. 00:00:24
And we have. 00:00:29
Four items on our agenda. The 1st is a public hearing. 00:00:31
And then we have an action item for a subdivision and then the continued hearing item for the. 00:00:35
Lighting text, amendment, amendment and some minutes. 00:00:43
So with that, we will turn over to city staff to tell us about the Treasure Chest Learning Academy, which is item number one. 00:00:47
Thank you, Chair. Roche application for you tonight is an application for a recognitional use permit. 00:01:00
Home occupation. 00:01:06
Preschools. 00:01:07
Micro schools now are something that well your schools that have always been of allowed use. 00:01:09
Just underconditional use permit. 00:01:15
Simply because every operation is a little bit different. 00:01:17
Primarily, you have some very sick standards that a preschool has to adhere to. Those standards are written in your staff report. 00:01:21
You can address those individually with the applicant and to see how those situations are being provided. 00:01:29
On site. 00:01:36
Staff report has been provided to you with a recommendation as well. Put some additional findings if. 00:01:37
Recommended Conditions. 00:01:43
If you derive to that situation. 00:01:46
But fairly straightforward conditional use permit request. 00:01:48
There has been an emailed. 00:01:53
Comment that came in yesterday. 00:01:55
If you would just wouldn't mind. 00:01:57
Whomever has taken the item can just mention that the residents name. 00:02:00
And say that we did receive Hill's comments. 00:02:04
Other than that, I mean happy to take some any questions on that side. 00:02:10
Commissioners, any questions about this one for? 00:02:17
I just have a quick question. So as far as the noise factor of a. 00:02:21
School. How does? How is that monitored? I know that most of it's kind of ambient noise anyway. 00:02:26
But uh. 00:02:32
When kids get excited, there's the noise can kind of elevate. 00:02:33
How do we make sure the neighbors don't have? 00:02:38
That all the time or. 00:02:41
Can you kind of explain to me the thought process and? 00:02:43
How we can help the neighbors also, yeah. 00:02:46
So specifically in the ordinance it talks about having. 00:02:49
Noise generated between the hours of eight and seven. 00:02:53
So if we're getting complaints on noise before that time. 00:02:56
Our code enforcement officer will go out and actually monitor the situation with the noise meter and determine whether or not it's 00:03:01
a nuisance violation. 00:03:04
To get around that, usually preschools have an upgrading start time that's much later. OK, 9:30. 00:03:09
Or later. 00:03:16
And definitely before 7. 00:03:18
So is this a common problem or? 00:03:20
I have lots of preschools in the city and I've never had a. 00:03:23
OK. OK. All right. Thank you. 00:03:27
Alright. 00:03:36
So it looks like we have a few discussion points suggested by city staff in the packet on this one. 00:03:40
All right. Any other questions on this one? Thank you. 00:03:48
We'll move for the record, the Vice Chair, Prince, is present. 00:03:54
We can really be official and get things done now. 00:03:57
All right. So with that, we'll move into the next item on here, which is the both Thorpe and Wren Hollow subdivision. 00:04:01
On Annabelle Circle. 00:04:10
Right, Yeah. So for this action item, the applicant is basically proposing to. 00:04:15
Amend the subdivision boundaries for. 00:04:21
They're both all subdivision and the Grand Hollow subdivision, primarily because. 00:04:25
They own pieces of property. 00:04:30
That are located within these two subdivisions. 00:04:33
They just want to move one. 00:04:36
Which is the one within the rental subdivision? 00:04:38
Into the bottom of subdivision. 00:04:41
So that's basically what that application is about. 00:04:44
The the Planning Commissions mandate is just to oversee. 00:04:48
That the amendment to this subdivision. 00:04:52
Is just done accordingly. 00:04:56
So this is a. 00:05:02
Very check the box seeming item to me. 00:05:06
The Commissioners, any questions on this one? 00:05:11
This is just a drainagement, right? 00:05:13
So or they need the additional land for the. 00:05:17
For one property versus the other. 00:05:21
I I wouldn't say they'll. 00:05:24
Necessarily need that for any construction project or anything like that. 00:05:27
They are puzzled differently in terms of the parcel numbers. 00:05:33
There is an existing home. 00:05:38
But what this application is primarily doing is just moving. 00:05:40
The area that is indicated in the red boundaries into the new subdivision. 00:05:44
OK. 00:05:49
Just to clarify, this wouldn't even be before us if it wasn't moving into that subdivision. If it was just a standard lot line 00:05:52
adjustment, you guys would have just handled this in the planning office exclusively, right? That's correct. 00:05:58
Stress a lot. Minor. 00:06:04
OK. 00:06:06
So we just get a play. That's awesome. All right, Any other questions on this one? 00:06:10
Moving right along. How about on the lighting? Text them because I know I spent all night reading and I'm excited. 00:06:15
I'm sure you did. 00:06:22
I think at this point. 00:06:25
Well, as staff we can walk through each individual. 00:06:27
Points and highlight some of the specific elements of this lighting. 00:06:30
I think it would be appropriate at this point to get. 00:06:36
Temperature from the Commission. 00:06:40
Whether or not we should be moving forward. 00:06:43
You feel like this is something that we should be having within the city, these types of regulations. 00:06:46
Where they haven't existed previously. 00:06:52
I think now is a good time to take temperatures and Commission just to ensure that moving forward is appropriate. 00:06:54
Collectively. 00:07:01
And then after that, then we can get through some of the higher level. 00:07:02
Sort of subjective elements like lighting levels, heights of. 00:07:06
Parking lot poles. 00:07:10
Those types of things that might be. 00:07:12
Changed up a little bit. 00:07:14
OK. Do we want to take that pulse? 00:07:20
I think we want to wait till the item. 00:07:24
And then at that point, if you're feeling comfortable enough moving forward. 00:07:27
You still have the public hearing open. 00:07:32
Take whatever comments are available to you and then most likely close it. 00:07:34
Any questions on the text at first passed from anyone who were in the work session though. 00:07:42
I like the idea of. 00:07:51
Should we even go down this path first? 00:07:52
Right. And that's just. 00:07:54
This seems to be. 00:07:56
Overkill. 00:07:59
With any ordinance, there's always that option. There's a do nothing, there's an end. 00:08:00
Or you can you know. 00:08:05
I'll just start over certain legislature who finds a problem and solves it when no one else can find the problem. 00:08:07
It's a one person problem. 00:08:15
Discussion. That's more. 00:08:17
Some time and except in this case, this ordinance won't solve the one problem. 00:08:19
I think for me, when I just look at it, I mean, which kind of ties into the fundamental question you're asking. 00:08:25
It's the legislation of like under glare annoyances crossed out and it says nuisance due to and it's. I feel like nuisance and 00:08:31
annoyance are synonymous subjective feeling words and. 00:08:37
I have a lot of annoyance and nuisances in my neighborhood that haven't been legislated yet, so. 00:08:44
Yeah. 00:08:51
Ultimately, when you have. 00:08:52
A nuisance situation that comes down to one individual in my department, which would be code enforcement. 00:08:54
Making a determination. 00:09:02
Of course, collectively with the TRC. 00:09:04
And then? 00:09:07
Whatever that determination might be with the applicant or the one that's causing the issue that the nuisance, there's always an 00:09:08
appeal process. But. 00:09:12
And that kind of would get fleshed out. That's why we have Mr. Kristofferson with us. 00:09:16
But nuisances are always subjective and that's why we want to make sure that. 00:09:21
And there's some objective standards in the code that says yes. 00:09:25
The light pulls too tight or yes, from this point I might promise on your neighbor's property I can see the light bulb. 00:09:30
Those types of things easy to enforce on. 00:09:37
It's just the residences in question. 00:09:40
Will be prior non conforming use. 00:09:43
I'm not sure how this will solve anything. 00:09:47
Wants to make any major change to their property, Yeah. 00:09:50
That requires updating. 00:09:53
Those light pictures to the code. 00:09:56
Yeah, but 50 years from now? 00:09:58
It will be very impactful. 00:10:00
And your grandchildren will be grateful. 00:10:02
At night. 00:10:05
This is like planting an oak tree. 00:10:07
You plant an oak tree for your grandchildren, not for you. My man with the tree reference. I love it. My, my, my real fear is 00:10:09
we'll be the first. 00:10:13
And after about the third city, copies of legislature will take away our authority to make these rules. 00:10:18
Yes, we will have done something. 00:10:26
We want to stop anything. 00:10:29
Yeah, I'm not sure these do work. These do work in. 00:10:31
Communities that aren't built out. 00:10:38
That aren't. 00:10:40
I know of several up in Summit County and other mountainous counties that do have mountainous. 00:10:42
Cities that do have. 00:10:48
You know dark skies provisions in their lighting code and. 00:10:51
People are very happy with them. 00:10:54
Perhaps if they're interested in solving this problem, they should solve it in their city. Well, many have, and it's working. 00:10:56
But but it's keeping it as is, right? It's. 00:11:04
It already is dark skies because most people don't have these massive. 00:11:07
Lightings that are LED, floodlights that. 00:11:10
Like a basketball courts and the neighbors backyard and the other neighbors back. 00:11:13
I think it's a worthy goal. I just think that. 00:11:18
We're trying to solve a specific problem. 00:11:23
With a specific house and this won't do it. 00:11:26
I don't think. 00:11:30
Well, I am looking forward to the spirit of discussion this evening when we get to that item, so this is going to be fun. 00:11:33
All right. And then lastly is approval of minutes and since we've got several before the official meeting starts. 00:11:41
Did anyone notice anything in the minutes that they? 00:11:51
Had pause question or felt like amendment needed? 00:11:55
That they have seen on 1st pass. 00:11:59
Everybody's just. 00:12:04
Good looking, all right. We love it. 00:12:05
All right, Well, that's the. 00:12:12
That's our agenda in a nutshell. So any questions on anything else? Or are we good to end the work session and make sure we mute 00:12:14
our microphones before we? 00:12:19
It to the official meeting. 00:12:23
All right. Well then we will end that work session. Thank you. 00:12:26
Done. 00:13:50
All righty. 00:13:59
Back from break, ready to party. Here we go. Good evening everyone and welcome to the Holiday City Planning Commission. 00:14:01
We have. 00:14:08
Oh, now we have. 00:14:10
Oh, but Commissioner Font in attendance and city staff and council present. 00:14:13
And we have 4 items on our agenda this evening. But before we roll into any of that, we do have an opening statement we read at 00:14:18
the public. 00:14:22
And I have asked Commissioner Barrett if he would read that for us tonight. 00:14:26
The City of Holiday Planning Commission is a volunteer citizen board. 00:14:30
Whose function is to review land use plans. 00:14:34
And other special studies. 00:14:37
Make recommendations to the City Council on proposed zoning map. 00:14:39
And ordinance changes. 00:14:43
And approved conditional uses and subdivisions. 00:14:45
The Planning Commission does not initiate land use applications. 00:14:48
Rather, acts on the applications as they are submitted. 00:14:52
Commissioners do not meet with applicants except that publicly noticed meetings. 00:14:55
Commissioners attempt to visit each property on the agenda where the location, the nature of the neighborhood. 00:15:01
Existing structures and uses. 00:15:07
Related to the proposed change are noted. 00:15:09
Decisions are based on observations. 00:15:12
Recommendations from the. 00:15:15
Professional planning staff, the city's general plan, zoning ordinance and other reports, all by verbal and written comments. 00:15:16
And by evidence submitted. 00:15:25
All of which are part of the public record. 00:15:26
Thank you very much, Commissioner Barron, I appreciate that. 00:15:30
And with that, we have a public hearing scheduled tonight for our first item, which is the conditional use permit for. 00:15:33
The Treasure Chest Learning Academy. 00:15:41
And at this time, I'd like to invite city staff to come up and work from where they're sitting. It's OK, I'm good either way. 00:15:43
But if you can just give us a reminder of what? 00:15:51
This item is about. 00:15:54
I would like to respect the position. 00:15:57
Thanks, Chair. Roach, we have an application for you tonight to consider for conditional use permit. 00:16:03
Just a reminder there in the city ordinance, there's permitted uses of conditional uses. 00:16:09
Conditional uses are essentially allowed uses. 00:16:15
Don't necessarily have specific standards that. 00:16:18
Can be written in to accommodate every type of situation, so therefore they are conditional. 00:16:21
In this situation we have a. 00:16:28
Preschool. 00:16:30
It's clearly incidental to the primary use for an application before you tonight. 00:16:31
You have a review by the technical Review committee, but specifically I want to point to you. 00:16:36
Put your attention to section of ordinance which is 13.76720. 00:16:41
Which is in your staff report. It has a list of. 00:16:47
A few items in there that are. 00:16:51
Have been considered standard. 00:16:53
Non negotiable types of situations for preschools to be. 00:16:55
Provide operation for. 00:17:00
Those elements in there should be moderated through a discussion with the applicant to ensure that those are can be provided. 00:17:03
And additionally, staff has provided you with some additional. 00:17:09
Conditions if you see fit to apply those as well. 00:17:13
Specifically in these situations we're looking for. 00:17:16
Pick up drop off parking situations. 00:17:19
That are amenable to the community is still. 00:17:23
Maintains the primary characteristic of the home being. 00:17:26
And your staff report as well. There's some aerial shots of. 00:17:30
What could be considered parking? 00:17:35
Stalls in the driveway. 00:17:37
Would be appropriate for this use. 00:17:39
And then any other questions that you can? 00:17:42
Would like to ask the applicant you're definitely. 00:17:45
To do so. 00:17:48
And also have the public hearing available. 00:17:49
To you for additional comment. 00:17:51
We did have one emailed comment from a resident, so I point your direction to that one. 00:17:54
If you want to read it in just as you generally. 00:18:01
You're welcome to do so. 00:18:04
Staff does it does recommend approval of this conditional use permit with some findings that are provided to the count or the 00:18:06
Commission. 00:18:10
And then some recommended. 00:18:14
Conditions to consider. 00:18:16
I'll be happy to take any other questions you might have. 00:18:18
Any questions for city staff? 00:18:22
Commissioners. 00:18:24
All right. Well then I think we're ready to have the applicant come up and. 00:18:25
Go into this a little further. 00:18:30
Hello, my name is Ashley McIntosh and I am. 00:18:41
Yes, applying for a conditional use permit in order to do a preschool in my home. 00:18:46
This is actually something I have dreamt of. 00:19:02
Sorry. 00:19:08
This was something I had printed on most of my adult life. I taught preschool. 00:19:13
For several years and it was my most favorite job. 00:19:19
And, umm. 00:19:23
And I've been working with small companies and I just feel so impressed. 00:19:27
To do this right now. 00:19:34
And so I'm taking a leap. 00:19:35
And here I am. 00:19:37
I submitted my application and I. 00:19:40
I intend to do it in my basement. We. 00:19:45
We've done a addition on our home and we have a. 00:19:48
Big room down in our basement with a separate entrance and. 00:19:52
That's where I intend to do it. 00:19:56
As far as traffic. 00:19:58
My application you will see I intend for traffic to flow. 00:20:01
From 20th East. 00:20:08
Going West down El Dorado Drive. 00:20:10
I intend for parents to stay in their cars and. 00:20:13
I will be there and be able to receive the children. 00:20:18
We're going to the classroom and then at the end of the day we will come out together. 00:20:22
And parents will do the same thing, come down out West on El Dorado. 00:20:27
And I will be there to ensure that the child gets into the right car and they will continue driving. 00:20:33
South on El Dorado. It's an L shape as you can see. 00:20:40
So that is my intent. 00:20:43
That I have. 00:20:46
Lots of support from my neighbors I have. 00:20:48
Supplied many letters. 00:20:51
From neighbors that are in support of it and. 00:20:54
Yeah, I don't know. What other questions do you have? 00:20:57
All right. Well, I appreciate that. 00:21:02
So just initially to make sure I understand because. 00:21:05
Parking and pickup is usually one of the bigger. 00:21:09
Talking points on these type of conditional use permit OK. 00:21:12
Umm, so how many children are you anticipating? 00:21:16
Having so. 00:21:21
According to Holiday City and the state of Utah, I can have up to 16. 00:21:25
With me and another employee. 00:21:32
If it is just me, it's up to eight children. 00:21:34
So your goal is 8 but potentially up to 16 by code? Yes. I mean I'm hoping to have 16 so I can employ another employee. 00:21:40
Yes, right now. 00:21:52
The Max would be 8 at the current time, yes. 00:21:54
OK. And I'm just thinking in terms of how many vehicles and are all of these children going to be arriving and leaving at the same 00:21:57
time every day? 00:22:02
So yes, so you can have up to 16 per class and I would have potentially two classes a day, maybe one. 00:22:06
It depends on how many kids I get enrolled. 00:22:15
So each class could have 16 drop off time would be. 00:22:18
9:00. 00:22:24
And pick up would be at 11:30 and then drop off again would be at noon for an afternoon class and then pick up at 2:30. 00:22:25
OK. That helps kind of give me some backdrop on that. I appreciate it. 00:22:34
Umm, other commissioners questions for the applicant, why she's up? 00:22:39
Yes, correct. Yep. 00:22:48
Thank you. I saw the hours of operation. 00:22:55
What's the yearly schedule? Does it follow an academic? 00:23:00
Telling her whether it's a summer break so I would be following Granite school districts calendar. 00:23:03
But the exception to that is I intend to start in September. 00:23:09
So that first week of September and end the last week of May. 00:23:13
OK, so you have school breaks. 00:23:18
Correct, correct. And then potentially, you know, maybe doing some summer camps, but it wouldn't be all summer. 00:23:21
OK, great. Thank you. Yep. 00:23:29
Thank you. 00:23:32
Umm, any other questions from the applicant? 00:23:33
All right. Well, at this point, we'll go ahead and have you have a seat. We'll probably bring you back up in just a second, 00:23:38
though. 00:23:40
And with that, this is a public hearing, so we will open it up for public comment at this time. 00:23:43
Those members of the public that wish to make comment on this. 00:23:50
We'd ask that you state your name and address for the record and then please keep comments to roughly 3 minutes and if you're. 00:23:53
Making a comment after someone else, we would ask that you try not to repeat any comments. 00:24:00
Or points that are made. 00:24:06
So with that, we will invite anyone up that wishes to come speak on this at this time. 00:24:08
Done once, twice. 00:24:16
All right, quick and done. All right. So with that, we'll close the public hearing. 00:24:18
And. 00:24:23
Seeing as how there were no public comments, we can. 00:24:24
Move forward, I think, with discussion and. 00:24:28
Commissioners. 00:24:32
Thoughts on mess? 00:24:34
This is Commissioner Prince. It seems pretty straightforward to me. 00:24:36
I don't see any real concerns that have not been addressed. 00:24:41
Either in the neighbor meeting or in the narrative as written up and then as presented. 00:24:46
I guess for me my only concern is just thinking about 32 trips a day if you have 16 kids times two classes, 64 vehicles. 00:24:53
Well, yeah, that's that's. 00:25:02
An impact? Well, it certainly is, but it's not going to start out that high, right? 00:25:05
So just being considered neighbors, I think that would be the only thing is just anything that could mitigate the. 00:25:12
Potential. 00:25:18
Impacts from that? 00:25:20
But do we have city staff or comment on that? 00:25:21
Well, because the news is allowed directly at that next. 00:25:26
We do have, sorry. 00:25:31
We do have anti idling ordinance in the city. 00:25:42
If you could directly tie that to this. 00:25:46
Application or not? 00:25:49
Usually. 00:25:52
From experience of dropping my own. 00:25:53
Child off to a home based preschool. 00:25:56
It's really not much of A styling situation. 00:25:59
Does it make sense to have a window? 00:26:06
Maybe 10 minute window so that we're not having a memory. 00:26:09
All. 00:26:12
Actually spread out a little bit. That has been proposed before in previous applications, yes. 00:26:14
So you don't have all traffic coming at once. 00:26:22
All right. 00:26:29
Having a preschool located on my street, yeah, that's where it was. 00:26:31
Just had everything on here. 00:26:38
Yeah, my street is. You've had everything on your street. 00:26:43
I would recommend. 00:26:48
That group if at all possible having different drop off times. 00:26:51
Just because there have been times trying to get in and out. 00:26:56
Of my area that. 00:27:00
Parents that come early to pick up. 00:27:03
They wait in line. 00:27:05
And the whole street is backed up with cars and the people that live there can't get in and out. 00:27:08
So if you can stagger that a little bit and make sure that. 00:27:15
That traffic problem doesn't become an issue. 00:27:19
I think that's pretty important. 00:27:24
And for me, I think that would address any concerns around the traffic side of it. Just something that you know. 00:27:29
Because I in my mind and vision got. 00:27:35
Don't live on an L street, but my. 00:27:38
Live off of a busy street. I'm just thinking how many cars could back up before it starts to be a problem. 00:27:41
Especially if you have everybody trying to get there right at 8:00. 00:27:48
I'm just really making sure that the pair understands it's a thorough drop off so they're not all trying to. 00:27:53
Make a you turn to go back up El Dorado. 00:28:00
And would be pretty imperative in this situation. 00:28:03
As far as the findings listed on, I think we have it on slide page four of the. 00:28:08
Application or the? 00:28:15
Yes, it's page 6. 00:28:18
Just looking at these findings, are there any of these that. 00:28:22
We feel that all of staff's recommendations are substantiated, should be included or their concerns that some of these are. 00:28:27
Not necessary. 00:28:33
And if the applicants had a chance to see those, any concerns from the applicant on any of these? 00:28:37
That we're considering. 00:28:42
You can just nod yes or no. 00:28:44
OK, no concerns from the applicant on any of the. 00:28:47
Suggested conditions or on the findings that are listed on here. 00:28:51
Commissioners and concerns. 00:28:56
On these I think. 00:28:58
One of the public comments did have a question about. 00:29:02
Noise that is addressed with the hours of operation Which? 00:29:05
Technically, you're 8:00 to 7:00, but are of course more limited in the actual hours of operation that it's intended and. 00:29:10
I would also assume that. 00:29:18
The activities won't be 100% outside. 00:29:20
So even though 16 kids. 00:29:24
Generated a significant amount of noise. It seems like the. 00:29:26
The IT would be time limited. 00:29:29
You know, sort of short versus high frequency. 00:29:33
So so. 00:29:37
It might be a concern, but it seems like it's addressed in the conditions as well, I think. 00:29:39
Good call. Thank you, Commissioner. 00:29:45
This Commissioner, Prince I. 00:29:50
There was mention in one of the emails or somewhere a question about. 00:29:51
If there would be a sign. 00:29:57
In the public, in the neighborhood meeting, the applicant said she might put a. 00:29:59
Like a little sign on the House. 00:30:05
But. 00:30:07
We've got a thing here as a suggested condition of approval to say no advertising signs. 00:30:09
Where are we at on the? 00:30:15
Does she get a small sign? Does she not get a sign? I think we followed the ordinance, no signs and the ordinance is no signs, OK. 00:30:18
I think if you paint your house numbers and rainbow. 00:30:25
That might give it away too, so just a suggestion. 00:30:30
I'm not getting there. I'm not going there. Yeah. 00:30:36
Not worth it. 00:30:40
Would that be an issue for the applicant to not have a sign? 00:30:42
In keeping with the code. 00:30:49
In the paperwork from Holiday City it says you can do a name please. 00:30:51
The nameplates are. 00:31:00
House number or address? 00:31:02
With three square feet, they're not very, it's not very big. It's it's intended to be 4. 00:31:05
Yeah, yeah. 00:31:10
Well, I think if the applicant. 00:31:15
Is on board with everything suggested and the recommendations, and there's no additional concerns from. 00:31:17
Commissioners, then I would invite anyone who's ready to make a motion. 00:31:24
To do so and. 00:31:30
You could probably typing and time if we just. 00:31:31
Call out everything that's in here and maybe bring up the mention of the staggering and pick up drop off times in that. 00:31:35
So can I ask staff a question? 00:31:43
Does it help to risk the hours of operation? 00:31:45
Like she's identifying. 00:31:48
From 9:00 to 12:00 for 9:00 to 2:00. 00:31:51
Do we want to say that? 00:31:55
So that the neighbors have some predictability on. 00:31:56
That the school be over it? Or is that just over it? 00:32:00
I'm just thinking of the neighbors and this one guy who's had a problem with some of the things that he. 00:32:05
And visions could happen. 00:32:11
But it doesn't say when the hours of operation will be done. 00:32:13
It just goes with the code and I don't want to over stress this but. 00:32:17
Well, if the applicants discuss or. 00:32:21
Considering having summer camps that might be different hours or if she's going to have two classes. 00:32:24
I love, I really like the use, I just want to be considerate of. 00:32:31
Potential impact and how a neighbor might have a little bit of recourse. 00:32:35
Does it matter to do that? 00:32:40
I think if it's inside the ordinance. 00:32:42
OK. All right. 00:32:44
I mean, any other commissioner thoughts on that? Don't we need dictate? 00:32:47
Well, I just know that people appreciate the fact that it'll be over with. The three, let's say. 00:32:50
Even though the ordinance gives till 5 or something. 00:32:55
But OK. 00:32:58
I'll be quiet. No, no, it's a it's a good question if we do in, in this. 00:33:01
State the proposed hours of operation is 9:00 to 3:00 instead of the ordinance operation. Ordinance allowed. 00:33:07
Operation is 8:00 to 7:00. 00:33:15
How hard is it to she wants to make a summer adjustment. How hard is that to change? So yeah, that's the issue. So if you put them 00:33:18
in a condition and to modify the condition, you have to come back before that. Yeah, because the traditional use runs with the 00:33:23
land. So my recommendation would be. 00:33:28
Let's give him the flexibility. 00:33:34
The ordinance allows. 00:33:37
Knowing that, knowing that there is a consideration of neighbors to. 00:33:40
Well, I, I think, I mean, from everything we've seen, there's no public comment here, no opposition to it. And not only that, 00:33:44
there's. 00:33:48
Multiple, yeah. 00:33:52
Letters of support that came with the application. In addition to there's one. Again, there's one. 00:33:53
Is one against that one? I didn't see that. Was that one that was in? 00:33:59
Oh, I apologize. During the public here. I don't know if I was supposed to bring it up at the public hearing or not. There was one 00:34:04
e-mail that was sent in and the paraphrase was they had concerns about traffic and noise. I believe it was an adjacent neighbor. 00:34:10
OK. Yeah. It's not that we're not concerned about that because they are, but the challenge is. 00:34:16
That these are permitted uses with conditions that are. 00:34:23
You know within the ordinance, right? So now if the applicant volunteers and says I'm good with at 2:00. 00:34:27
OK, but the applicant doesn't. 00:34:33
I don't think we have the ability to impose that. 00:34:37
More restrictive. 00:34:41
Then what the ordinance allows. 00:34:43
The ordinance requires. 00:34:45
What about days of the week? That's one thing I didn't check on is that would this preclude them from operating Saturday, Sunday 00:34:46
if it's in line with? 00:34:50
Well. 00:34:55
You wouldn't necessarily preclude, but typically preschools aren't open on The Saturdays and Sundays. 00:34:57
Normal, normal weekday hours of operation. I think our home based businesses are. 00:35:03
Does the ordinance say, John, did you find that? 00:35:07
I'm looking at I believe for home based businesses there is an hours of operation. 00:35:12
If you want to reference the code itself. 00:35:17
If it's thirteen and five. 00:35:22
Based upon ordinance. 00:35:26
The other point that you may want to consider is we've got lots of these in the city. 00:35:31
So it might be easier if we just kind of. 00:35:36
Read them all the same instead of having different different conditions of conditions on. 00:35:39
Based on location and things like that. 00:35:44
Just a thought. 00:35:47
My view has always been, you know, it's nice that we have this e-mail that if the person has suggested what is a condition. 00:35:49
That would solve the problem he raises. 00:35:57
But he hasn't proposed any solution. He just. 00:36:00
Says don't do it. 00:36:03
Yeah, and that and so. 00:36:05
I'm not overly sympathetic to a person's. 00:36:07
Suggestion that they don't like it, but they there's no conditions under which I guess this person would approve it so. 00:36:11
Yeah, sure. 00:36:17
The other thing in conditions. 00:36:19
Excuse me, conditional uses is that? 00:36:23
In order to impose a condition, we need to have an objective standard. 00:36:26
That we can identify it, right? We can't just say well. 00:36:31
The next door neighbor doesn't like it, so we can't do it well. 00:36:36
I know that that's true, right? I'm not. I'm not trying to minimize that, but that's not what the law says the law says. 00:36:40
If it's if it's in the list of uses. 00:36:46
In a use table in the zone. 00:36:49
And it's got conditions you have to have. 00:36:51
You have to have. 00:36:54
Conditions that are objective, that you can enforce that are. 00:36:55
You know, understandable for all parties, right, the applicant, but these also conditions aren't, it's not a question of whether 00:36:59
or not you approve it as to whether or not. 00:37:03
You can identify the reasonably anticipated detrimental effects and apply a condition that mitigates that. Doesn't eliminate it, 00:37:07
but mitigates it. 00:37:10
Right, right, so the staggering windows of drop off times. 00:37:14
I think that is perfectly. 00:37:18
You know, not only is it enforceable, but is reasonable. 00:37:20
To eliminate stacking and, you know, difficulty in entering and, you know, other neighbors entering their driveways and things of 00:37:22
that nature. 00:37:26
That's a reasonable condition. Hours of operation is a reasonable condition. 00:37:30
You know within within the code, right? But. 00:37:35
Again, if the applicant is willing to. 00:37:38
Have a narrower window. 00:37:40
And they sure, I have no problem with that. I don't think if they agree to it, then that's one thing. If they don't agree to it, I 00:37:42
think we're limited to the hours of operation that's in the. 00:37:46
In the. 00:37:51
Appreciate that, Council. Thank you. 00:37:53
All right, so. 00:37:56
I moved on. 00:38:00
This is Commissioner Prince. I'm prepared to make a motion to approve. 00:38:08
The application by Ashley McIntosh for the Treasure Chest Learning Academy Preschool. 00:38:12
An in home preschool located at 1895 E El Dorado Drive in the R18 zone. 00:38:17
Based upon the findings as listed in the staff report. 00:38:23
And subject to the following requirements that there be two spaces in the driveway for parking. 00:38:27
Associated with the preschool operation. 00:38:33
A single employee from outside the house. No advertising signs. 00:38:36
The you shall be subject to an initial fire and building code inspection and compliance. 00:38:41
And that the applicant obtained a business license from the city of Holiday. 00:38:47
In which and that the applicant will consider a method to stagger pickup and drop off. 00:38:55
I second the motion. All right, thank you, Commissioner Golden for a second. So we will move to a vote. Start down here, 00:39:04
Commissioner Baron Aye, Mr. Gong aye, Mr. Prince aye, Mr. Luczynski, Mr. Cunningham Aye, and Chair Roche votes aye. So with that. 00:39:10
Thank you for taking care of our kids. 00:39:18
All right, wonderful. Thank you very much. And with that, we will now move forward with our action item on Bothorp and Renhollow 00:39:22
Subdivision. 00:39:26
And we will invite city staff to. 00:39:31
Remind us with this. 00:39:33
Phone actions all about. 00:39:35
Yeah, thank you very much. I'm Justice 24, city planner The. 00:39:41
Canadian Economic Development Department. 00:39:45
Now this action item I need to. 00:39:48
Reemphasize that. 00:39:52
This is an action item due to the city and state mandate. 00:39:54
That. 00:40:00
Necessitates that whenever there is an amendment to. 00:40:03
Subdivision. 00:40:07
Which would. 00:40:09
Directly impact the plant itself, The subdivision plant itself. 00:40:10
We present that to the Planning Commission. 00:40:15
As their learning is 1/3 and that checks that there's subdivision amendment is amendment is done correctly. 00:40:18
Now the property in question here. 00:40:26
The applicant owns 2 pieces of property. 00:40:30
Now the main property. 00:40:34
Is located on 4794 S. 00:40:36
Anibal Circle. 00:40:42
Now that the property owner owns the the abutting lot to the South. 00:40:43
Now this property is approximately 0 point. 00:40:49
09 acres, which is a little bit shy of 4000. 00:40:53
Square feet of property. Now what this area of land is is that for the city? 00:40:57
Ordinance it doesn't meet the definition of. 00:41:02
A lot. 00:41:05
For the for the city ordinance definitions now that this area of land is also not buildable. 00:41:07
Because it's used. 00:41:16
It has an easement, a storm drainage easement. 00:41:18
That occupies this area of land, which is the 0.09 acres of land. 00:41:22
Now what the applicant is basically proposing to do is they're proposing to move this area of land from the Randall subdivision. 00:41:28
Into the portal. 00:41:36
Subdivision and that's. 00:41:38
Primarily what what's being proposed? 00:41:40
To be done. So they're submitting this application before the Planning Commission. 00:41:42
For approval to this subdivision amendment. So in principle it's essentially an amendment to both subdivision parts. 00:41:48
Making sure that we take out. 00:41:56
That 0.09 acres of land from the. 00:41:58
Rental a subdivision to. 00:42:02
Both our subdivision. 00:42:04
The the city staff. 00:42:07
And the technical review committee. 00:42:09
Provided some findings. 00:42:12
On this proposed application. 00:42:14
Which is found in your report. 00:42:16
So per the release from the zoning department. 00:42:19
Fire division building codes and everything. 00:42:23
Everything has been approved. 00:42:26
By the city's technical review committee for approval. 00:42:29
So that's what this application is about tonight. 00:42:32
I'm open to any questions from the Planning Commission. 00:42:36
Just one quick note as I'm looking at this. So this is going the parcel is being. 00:42:40
Put onto or. 00:42:47
Just to be clear. 00:42:49
Is it creating just one parcel? 00:42:51
No. So it's going to stay as a separate easement parcel. It's just going to be attached to the. 00:42:53
Whatever this is House North on the honorable court, right? Yeah. So there is no creation of any new lots, no adjustments in the 00:43:00
pre existence size or shape. 00:43:04
Of these two lots, it's just moving one from. 00:43:10
One subdivision into another, That's basically it, OK. 00:43:13
Just want to clarify on that. So it's still staying this individual parcel of? 00:43:17
Space. 00:43:22
Just attached to a different neighborhood. Yeah, the same address, different parcel numbers. It's still text. 00:43:24
By the county, just to make sure that once this amendment is done, it's still recorded for the county. 00:43:31
It's it's what this process is about, OK. 00:43:38
Perfect. Next question, SO. 00:43:41
We're moving it from one of some vision to the next one. 00:43:45
It's an illegal lot the way it currently is, right, Because it's just don't shake your head. I'm just. 00:43:48
Speaking out here because based on the lot size, it doesn't meet the current lot size. 00:43:54
So are we bringing it into conformance by doing? 00:44:00
OK. The area itself was part of that. 00:44:04
Parcel for storm easement. 00:44:08
And parcels can be created over ground, but lots are completely different. 00:44:11
Lots have a determined right to them that persons do not have. 00:44:15
So this action did move it from 1 subdivision to. That doesn't constitute where it has to be. 00:44:19
Updated the action is that moving the property line from 1 ownership to the other? 00:44:26
Is it creates a disruption with the subdivision boundaries, Normally we will be able to handle something like this 00:44:33
administratively as a property line adjustment. 00:44:37
But because the property line itself is a subdivision boundary. 00:44:42
Moving that area from one side to the other. 00:44:46
Would constitute amending both class. 00:44:49
Doesn't create a lot or having that lot itself being. 00:44:52
A standalone lot as defined by state code, which entitles building rights. 00:44:56
It's a placeholder parcel for that easement, a strong drainage, OK. 00:45:02
So even after if this is to go forward, get approved and it moves from 1 subdivision to the next. 00:45:07
It's still a separate lot and they couldn't. 00:45:16
Try and create a single parcel inclusive of this. You can definitely combine them. OK, so it could be combined after it's moved. 00:45:18
OK I. 00:45:22
Problems what they're planning to do. 00:45:27
Now you could definitely, they could do that. I it's totally up to them. There are some benefits of keeping in its own parcel 00:45:29
because it's taxed at a different rate. 00:45:34
And I mean, the only benefit that I could see of moving it and then combining it would be maybe that you could do an addition or 00:45:42
at an increased property value because it's more square footage. 00:45:46
Possibly, yeah, the area is unusable. It has an infrastructure. I mean, I'm just trying to like, think through the logic of why. 00:45:52
Make any changes, you know what I mean so. 00:46:00
OK, I get it. That's all I wanted to clarify. Thank you. 00:46:03
Any other questions for commissioner from Commissioner, sorry for city staff. 00:46:07
All right. And do we have the applicant here that wants to come up and address this? 00:46:11
A helmet. 00:46:14
So the plan is the original plan when I came is to make instead of two parcels, make it 1 parcel. 00:46:21
So I don't want you to think that that's not what my plan is. 00:46:26
That's the plan, and it is because. 00:46:29
Existing proper the existing house I'm planning on tearing down and building another house, and the architect said that the 00:46:32
process would go smoother if it was too one person though 2 parcels. 00:46:36
But then. 00:46:42
Doing what would have been an administrative. 00:46:43
Then we discovered that one parcel. 00:46:46
Is in Red Hollow and one parcel is in Annabelle. 00:46:49
And so. 00:46:54
That's why we have to do subdivision amendments to move it from 1:00. 00:46:56
Side to the other. 00:47:01
The configuration of the. 00:47:03
Property. The owner who I bought it from, it's fenced, it's for all the neighbors. They see it as one parcel, so. 00:47:06
It's not. 00:47:14
Affecting the local neighbors. 00:47:16
They're fine with it. I talked to. 00:47:19
So I just wanted to. 00:47:22
I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding of what my intent is is that it will be. 00:47:24
One parcel, even if it means. 00:47:28
Taxes, it's very expensive process all around, so I'm just putting them on my tab so. 00:47:30
That's so if you have any questions, but that's the. 00:47:36
So I probably will have to do something else now, but the intent is you have to amend the two subdivisions. 00:47:41
But the plan is is to make it 1. 00:47:48
Merge the two. 00:47:51
Parcels means the smaller parcel into the larger parcel and the lot number will be the lot the larger parcel is. 00:47:52
But I understand. Gotcha. OK Any other questions for the applicant? 00:48:00
All right. Thank you for clarifying. Appreciate it. 00:48:04
All right. And this does not have a public hearing since it is administrative. So with that, any other questions for staff or 00:48:07
comments or is someone ready to maybe make a motion on it if they feel good about it? 00:48:14
I'll be happy to make a motion about this. 00:48:23
Hello, Mr. Cunningham, Motions. 00:48:26
To approve the subdivision Platinum Adeline application by Carolyn Colton. 00:48:30
For Bothorp and Wren Hollow. 00:48:35
An amendment to remove parcel 22-10-229-077. 00:48:37
From the Wren Hollow subdivision. 00:48:44
Add parcel 22-10-229. 00:48:47
077 to the Bothorp subdivision. 00:48:52
Located at 40. 00:48:55
94 S Annabelle Circle. 00:48:58
And they are 110 zone. 00:49:01
Based on the upon the following findings 1 development details. 00:49:03
Required for subdivision Amendments have been submitted and reviewed by the TRC to. 00:49:08
The proposed amendment to the law complies of the minimum width and area for single family home development in the R110 zone. 00:49:13
Three of the required submittals for subdivision amendment have been provided where applicable. 00:49:22
And have been found to be complete and acceptable for fire access. 00:49:26
Is existing and approved by UFA. 00:49:31
Five public roads and utility easements are shown on the plant. 00:49:34
Alrighty, this is Commissioner Brandon. I'll second that. 00:49:39
Perfect. So we have a motion in a second. We'll call for a vote. 00:49:42
We'll start down here. Commissioner Cunningham, Aye. 00:49:45
Mr. Prince aye, Mr. Gone aye, Mr. Baron aye, and Chair Roach votes aye. So with that it moves forward. 00:49:49
Unanimous vote. 00:49:56
And I would just say there's a lot of trees on that. 00:49:57
So remember, holiday loves us our trees, so if you can teach that, we love it. 00:50:00
Love it even more. 00:50:07
All right. Thank you very much. 00:50:09
OK. And now the moment we've all been waiting for the continued text amendment with a hearing still open, I don't see any members 00:50:12
of public so. 00:50:16
Before we get into the how, why discussion. 00:50:23
Would it be proper protocol to close the public hearing at this time? 00:50:27
Or after you have a discussion, maybe there might be something that comes up. 00:50:32
OK, fair enough. So we kind of started with this on the work session, but if you want to give us just a. 00:50:40
Quick reminder and then walk us through the. 00:50:48
That I guess fundamental philosophical steps before we get into the nitty gritty text of it all. 00:50:51
Sure. So an update from your previous meeting, the City Council has been reviewing this. 00:50:58
Specific draft for a few months around. 00:51:04
Specifically from issues that have. 00:51:09
Been found in Council Member Gray's area, which is District 5. 00:51:13
And specifically some areas of that neighborhood that. 00:51:19
Had been subdivided. 00:51:23
Oh, for those of us who don't, keep up. 00:51:25
Map of holiday in our brains. Where? What areas? District 5? 00:51:29
So District 5 is the largest district. 00:51:33
It because it has the least amount of number of population per capita. So you have. 00:51:36
Pretty much runs from Big Cottonwood Creek. 00:51:40
All the way down to the freeway. 00:51:43
And it encompasses everything from Highland Drive up to Canyon Cove, most of the Walker Lane area. Yeah. 00:51:45
Thank you. Yes. 00:51:53
So through the subdivision process, a couple of homes were built in an area that really had been substantially dark. 00:51:56
Newer homes built with more modern lighting fixtures to accentuate the landscaping and some fencing. 00:52:04
That's the situation and possibly some others could be thrown into the mix that. 00:52:13
Addressed light trespass in our residential neighborhoods. 00:52:18
Up until now. 00:52:21
We really haven't had many situations that warrant a code amendment. 00:52:23
It did warrant it warrant some enforcement on nuisance. 00:52:28
And we do have some records. 00:52:32
Usually that's average is about 3:00 to 5:00. 00:52:34
Situations or cases a year. 00:52:38
Our code enforcement will go, officer will go out. 00:52:41
Explain the concern that a neighbor might have. 00:52:43
May be derived to a solution and. 00:52:46
The fixture itself is modified in some way. 00:52:48
So that's kind of how the holiday has addressed. 00:52:52
Residential lighting concerns or nuisances. 00:52:55
Commercial is different. 00:52:58
Through a commercial site plan approval. 00:53:00
Planning Commission has complete authority over the review of that site plan. 00:53:02
And there always are. 00:53:06
Lighting requirements that come with all of those. 00:53:08
And you may or may not recall some. 00:53:12
Site plans will come with a Lumen study. 00:53:15
It's a site plan that has numbers all over it. 00:53:18
That has what? 00:53:21
The fixture itself would project light on for the surface of the parking lot, landscaping, et cetera. 00:53:22
So there would have to be a maximum number of lumens that could cross the property line going to a street. 00:53:29
That type of thing. 00:53:35
And especially on buildings where. 00:53:38
Architecture architectural lighting is is is what they wanted. 00:53:41
To accentuate the building itself. 00:53:45
So through those situations, the Planning Commission could visually see that determine if there's going to be a bike trespass 00:53:47
problem or nuisance factor. 00:53:51
And modify accordingly. 00:53:55
There has never been anything like that at the staff level as, for example, justice reviews, House plans. 00:53:56
For lighting standards or compliance. 00:54:02
So that's what's being proposed. 00:54:05
There are some elements in here that the Planning Commission could use. 00:54:09
In their during their deliberation of site plans, commercial site plans to be. 00:54:13
We've updated some terminology and. 00:54:16
And provide some additional guidance for like. 00:54:19
Parking light pulled heights and. 00:54:22
You know how far a parking lot, light pole, or light standard should be from a property behind of a residential neighborhood? 00:54:24
Those things might still be useful to you. 00:54:31
As you look through this forward. 00:54:35
Going forward, but specifically the 1384050 section. 00:54:36
Is all of the brand new residential lighting. 00:54:42
Standards, Regulations. 00:54:45
So specifically, there's some elements in there that we can discuss. 00:54:48
As far as Kelvin ranges. 00:54:53
Color ranges of lumens. You know how high a vertical wall? 00:54:57
Or sconces can be mounted on a vertical wall. 00:55:02
How high sport court lighting could be. 00:55:06
Et cetera. But I think as I mentioned before in the planning and the work session. 00:55:09
It might be a really good exercise to make sure the Planning Commission is feeling comfortable generally with the with the 00:55:15
ordinance approach. 00:55:18
In this manner. 00:55:23
And making sure that everybody is kind of on the same page. 00:55:24
Before we start making amendments to something that. 00:55:28
We may not want it. 00:55:31
Recommend. 00:55:32
In the whole hit me in the end. 00:55:34
That's a good strategy. 00:55:37
And I, I appreciate that. I'll just kick off here with the comment that I appreciate the dark skies. 00:55:42
Intent. 00:55:49
Because what I envision is. 00:55:51
These older not even just thinking Walker woods, but think like Meadow, more lane or. 00:55:55
You know, up the hill on Castro somewhere and you have a place where it's really tree and heavily forested area with a small 00:56:02
little house that's been there for. 00:56:07
Half a century or more. 00:56:12
And someone buys that lot and says, hey, I'm going to build my dream home here now and. 00:56:14
They're going to tear down all those trees and then they're going to put up a larger home and they're going to put lots of 00:56:18
lighting on their home because they're really proud of it and they want it to be secure. 00:56:23
Right. And now these neighbors who have been. 00:56:28
In the dark at night and enjoying stars suddenly don't get that anymore because they get the beacon as lit of the brand new home 00:56:32
that was built across the street from them. 00:56:37
And so I think something that mitigates that. 00:56:42
Maybe doesn't do anything for the non conforming that's already out there and exists, but I think the intent of that is important. 00:56:46
To keep in mind for what we want for our city. 00:56:53
Looking forward 203050 years from now. 00:56:56
The concern that I do have and there was a graphic you just flashed over on slide 96 there. 00:57:01
Is the mitigation of trespass of light into other properties. 00:57:06
If you look in the middle of this top graphic on here. 00:57:12
Is that a wall that has been built to prevent light from spilling outside the property? 00:57:16
I think that's assuming a fence line on the property. 00:57:24
OK. I mean that's that's where my concern would be is are we creating a situation with this ordinance? 00:57:27
Where instead of having open neighborhoods, we're now putting lots more fences and walls up. 00:57:33
So we can track light on the property for the resident to be compliant and conforming to this ordinance. 00:57:38
That's where I get a little bit skittish around it because I like the idea of enclosed lights, I like the idea of trying to reduce 00:57:46
glare and all the intent behind this. But what I would be really concerned about is now we have walls on every new property. 00:57:53
Whether it be right up to the sidewalk or 4 feet back or wherever it's at, but suddenly we have this giant walled off city so we 00:58:01
can have our yards lit up. 00:58:06
If that makes sense. 00:58:10
OK. I think, OK, I think, I think you're coming from SO. 00:58:12
For example, in that little, in that situation in the middle graphic. 00:58:16
If there hadn't been a fence there, it would been completely open between the neighbors, right? It might be compelled to put one 00:58:19
up because they're at the security lighting situation. 00:58:24
Right, OK. 00:58:28
Seems cheaper. You change your life. I agree but. 00:58:29
If they say, well I want to actually see my landscape at night and I feel really good about paying for the lighting on it, but 00:58:38
I've got to comply with cities rules so I guess I'll just put up a nice. 00:58:43
You know, cinder block wall with a nice facade facing me and everyone else outside can deal with it. 00:58:48
This is Commissioner Prince. 00:58:56
Comment that I I like the idea of pursuing some kind of a lighting ordinance. 00:58:58
As we're seeing as. 00:59:03
Older homes are torn down and new. 00:59:06
Big things are built with without any lighting guidelines from the city. 00:59:09
They can get a little carried away. 00:59:16
And I. 00:59:19
Having a tool. 00:59:21
Both for the city and for neighbors to maybe say hey. 00:59:24
Over and. So I'm in favor of considering. 00:59:28
Continuing to discuss. 00:59:33
The ordinance. 00:59:34
Mr. Cunningham, I know you have some concerns in the work session. 00:59:39
The counting with a couple of questions and maybe that will change my mind. So I live in an HOA with 92 units. 00:59:43
Do we have to submit a lighting plan? 00:59:53
For multi if you were to rebuild. 00:59:58
Well, no, that was this question. Not unless we. 01:00:01
Rebuild and what would be? 01:00:07
A rebuild that would require a lighting plan. 01:00:10
If we replaced all the everything. 01:00:14
If you were to worry about it, OK. 01:00:18
If we replace all the roofs on the. 01:00:22
On the existing HOA. 01:00:25
Complex. Would that require a lightning plan? 01:00:27
It's like a reroof, it's getting re shingled, that type of thing. No, I mean. 01:00:33
We were literally not not a. 01:00:38
We have cement. 01:00:40
Shingles. Yeah. Hey. 01:00:42
But you're virtually impossible to buy anymore. 01:00:45
When we run out of supply, we have. 01:00:48
There's been some discussion about. 01:00:51
Taking the wrists off 1 by 1 on the four plexes. 01:00:54
And replacing with modern roofs and the asphalt the structures underneath the. 01:00:58
So I wouldn't be reroofing. I mean literally. 01:01:04
Support would have to be replaced because. 01:01:08
Existing support. 01:01:11
It's way too long. 15 years old. 01:01:12
Yes, we wrote into this. I'm trying to find it. 01:01:15
We wrote into the ordinance and I think it's all tied to new construction. 01:01:19
I don't believe that was all under new construction. It would be considered upkeep and maintenance. 01:01:23
Is that is that in 1384020? 01:01:29
This new development, or existing development if it's. 01:01:32
Resulting demolition or expansion. 01:01:36
Or installation of any new after lighting that requires a building inspection for compliance. Those are the circumstances that 01:01:38
would trigger. 01:01:42
Needing to needing to compile the new code. 01:01:46
So anything that's brand new construction accessory buildings. 01:01:50
Any structures that would be tied to. 01:01:54
Whatever element. 01:01:57
That the like if you had a carport and there were security lights in the carport and that carport was proposed to be. 01:01:58
Either torn down or expanded upon. 01:02:04
Those light fixtures, the security lights will have to be updated. 01:02:06
And then expansion of land use and so like any sport courts that's expanded to maybe include a pool. 01:02:11
Or vice versa. Pool includes a pickleball court. 01:02:17
You would look at and require a lighting plan for what is going to be used for those poles. 01:02:20
If they're too tall now, they would have to be. 01:02:25
Science. So really it's an expansion. 01:02:28
The land uses or new construction. 01:02:31
That's related to the property. 01:02:34
What about? Can you explain something you said during the work meeting which was? 01:02:36
If. 01:02:42
There's a neighbor dispute. 01:02:43
A vapor. 01:02:44
You know a neighbor makes a complaint, the other neighbors out of compliance, but. 01:02:47
Is our existing at that point? Would they be subject to the new code where it's? 01:02:52
Determine that it is indeed some kind of nuisance. 01:02:58
No SO. 01:03:01
Continue as they were with bad feelings until one of them did construction. Now at that point, I know our code enforcement officer 01:03:03
would do as he as he had stunned. 01:03:07
Which would be. 01:03:12
Help both the property owner who's maybe. 01:03:14
Trespassing. 01:03:18
Understand the intent of the the ordinance and spirit and code. 01:03:19
Maybe help gain compliance that way. 01:03:23
If they're really vindictive, they'll probably just. 01:03:26
Tell us to go away and we would. 01:03:29
Have much teeth? 01:03:30
But in the past, our code enforcement officers have been pretty good at that. 01:03:32
Our residents have been generally. 01:03:36
Acceptable of what? What they're what they're doing is impactful. 01:03:38
Changing that situation. 01:03:42
That would that's what would be up to it would be sort of taking us outside the approach, but really no enforcement. 01:03:44
I see so so this will so these wouldn't resolve the disputes that exist now. I don't know how many of the. 01:03:50
Those are, but in the future it could prevent. 01:03:57
Some of the disputes? Ideally yes. 01:04:00
How many register? I mean, how many disputes do we have, complaints do we have right now on the books? 01:04:04
This year only the two that have been generated by this. 01:04:10
Code. 01:04:14
Last year there were, I think there were 5. 01:04:15
OK. And. 01:04:17
Have prevented those of. 01:04:20
If those places were in complaints and the couple I'm thinking of, yeah, because they were brand new security lights that were 01:04:22
installed. 01:04:25
The others were shooting neighbors in the. 01:04:29
Going to be fixed there. 01:04:32
Looking for an issue. 01:04:34
Because this is what I thought it was. 01:04:39
If you're having an issue with a neighbor, the first level is always just talk to the neighbor. But if you feel like you have to 01:04:42
call in code enforcement, what are the next steps? 01:04:46
And I feel like saying. 01:04:51
This wasn't true when you put your lights in, but now it is. We're trying to. 01:04:53
You know as. 01:04:58
Codified what it means to your thoughtful neighbor in this specific instance. 01:05:00
I think that is helpful. 01:05:06
I think it's helpful. 01:05:09
I hear you saying. 01:05:11
Legislating everything you can't. 01:05:14
But it does seem like this is a helpful. 01:05:17
Set of tools to have to say. 01:05:19
Here, here here considerations. 01:05:22
That you should think about when you're building something new. 01:05:25
Consider compliance. 01:05:29
And as a both as a future thing, but also as. 01:05:31
Conflict resolution tool. 01:05:34
I think this brings the code into the new technology of lighting too. 01:05:37
It's so vastly improved that. 01:05:41
Even the small. 01:05:45
Change of lights becomes could be a major impact. 01:05:46
Said the adjacent properties and so. 01:05:50
I appreciate the attempt of doing that. 01:05:52
It could be overkill, but. 01:05:56
You know, but there's some. 01:05:59
Are the. 01:06:03
Lighting stuff that's in here, Are they not part of the regular building code? 01:06:05
We are a step ahead of the building code. Is this currently been adopted in Utah because we're. 01:06:11
Like 10 years behind. 01:06:18
No, this. There's nothing like this in the building code. The building code will address energy efficiency. 01:06:21
And probably recommend LED lighting technology. 01:06:26
But it won't get into lumens and Kelvin scale and things like. 01:06:30
CS GO. 01:06:33
I don't think I'm opposed to the concept of giving good ideas to, you know, make things better in the future. 01:06:37
And that. 01:06:45
And then I think it's a little scary to read it. 01:06:47
And it sounds like you probably need to hire a lighting engineer to comply. 01:06:51
And that that's a costly. 01:06:56
And that's why I say when the legislature gets these things. 01:07:00
I guarantee you the developers will go and say there's another cost Holiday City wants. 01:07:04
You know that you're going to have to pay to have a lighting engineer to do a residential home. 01:07:09
Yeah, I agree and the Council agreed with you on that specific. 01:07:14
Element as well which. 01:07:19
In turn, they directed staff to ensure that for residential properties. 01:07:21
For single family house, duplex or. 01:07:26
Up to a multi family. 01:07:29
That our lighting professional. 01:07:31
Would not have to be required to be submitting that lighting. 01:07:33
Or multi family. 01:07:37
Project as commercial property they would employ. 01:07:38
Lighting engineer, but for single family houses. 01:07:42
They could come up with cut sheets. 01:07:45
Of the picture they'd like to install. 01:07:49
And something that's very easy for staff to ensure compliance on. 01:07:52
We can see that that light standard is 60, or we can see that the sofa lights are no more than 20 feet tall. 01:07:56
And the light bulbs are used are going to be at that 4000. 01:08:03
Warm. 01:08:07
Scale of Kelvin. 01:08:09
OK, that type. 01:08:11
Approachable. Yeah, I just happened to be at Home Depot yesterday. 01:08:13
Found that there weren't a lot of K ratings on it. There's still lumens. 01:08:18
So if I'm a citizen, who is being. 01:08:23
Really responsive to this and I look at the code I can't find a label on my box. 01:08:27
Other than 800 lumens. 01:08:33
Lumens is easy to find, usually they're only the boxes only say. 01:08:36
Daylight. 01:08:41
Yeah, yeah. 01:08:43
And. 01:08:45
So again, as we're going through this, you know. 01:08:46
If Joe Citizen can't read this ordinance and figure out when he goes to Home Depot. 01:08:50
Whether his light bulb complies. 01:08:54
In that. 01:08:57
And I mean. 01:09:00
I, I would, I was shocked 'cause I actually, you know, oh, yeah. OK, I'll look. You know, all the ones that we use in our complex 01:09:01
are 800 limits. There are no K ratings in that. They do say daylight. 01:09:07
Because we've decided we want daylight because we know the daylight looks like. Because it's white. 01:09:12
Instead of yellow. 01:09:17
But those are technical things, I think. 01:09:20
You know, would you feel better about the ordinance if it was in lemons instead of Kelvins? 01:09:23
Well, onto both the more information you can, you know. 01:09:29
I I don't want to scare people away from a new standard because. 01:09:33
When I go to Home Depot and they get the minimum wage employee and ask him which is a. 01:09:38
4800 K And they look at you and go, well this one says 800. 01:09:44
So those those are major actually two different things, right. So the lumens is the amount of light and then the Kelvin is the 01:09:50
color of light. I'm just saying when you go and buy, I'm doing in quality. 01:09:56
There are no K ratings on those boxes anywhere or on the shelves. 01:10:02
And I didn't test. 01:10:06
The worker because I'm not sure he even worked online. 01:10:09
No, we can, just like there are figures at the end of the code. 01:10:16
We can very easily place into it. 01:10:20
Now let me get into color of. 01:10:23
You can place a color scale at the end of the code. 01:10:28
As a graphic that can show you where the 4003 to 5000 lay in that. 01:10:31
Range. The problem is, is like I'm seeing on Brad's phone here. 01:10:37
Depending on the different type of monitor you're viewing it on, you're going to see that yellowish in a different. 01:10:42
Right. 01:10:49
Yeah. So generally I think the way that this is proposed. 01:10:51
The 4000 level is kind of right in the middle. 01:10:56
It's not into the whitish bluish hues and it's not very orangey amber. 01:10:59
It's generally right in the middle of her. 01:11:04
A normal light bulb could be. However, we could change that. I mean, that's just a placeholder. 01:11:08
We can put a scale in or a range. 01:11:12
The village has 3500 K is the color that. 01:11:15
All the lights need to be. 01:11:19
So if we had a range from 3500 to 4500, that might be. 01:11:22
Give some more flexibility to the homeowner. 01:11:27
But it may be better to just start with the. 01:11:31
Ordinance the fixture and trying to limit light trespass and worry about the color of the bulbs in the future like. 01:11:35
We can definitely do that. 01:11:44
I mean, I just kind of with Paul, like, I mean, it's just her commissioner cutting down. Excuse me. It just feels. 01:11:45
A bit. 01:11:52
Heavy. 01:11:53
To you know. 01:11:54
Say you can only have like I feel that's very HOA, you know, taking away my property rights when you have a light bulb that's too 01:11:56
yellow. Here's your ticket. Fix it. You know, like I just. 01:12:02
I like the bug lamp where I don't, you know what I mean. 01:12:09
We can run a draft but I just rested that so only the light trespass problem and the glare issue. 01:12:14
We can. We can write a version that addresses just really narrows it down to just those elements. 01:12:21
I've got a quick question on the R1. 01:12:29
For support court lighting is that any activity court. 01:12:31
The support court is a normal name and I didn't want people to. 01:12:36
Think that if I don't have a sport card, I. 01:12:40
Not regulated. 01:12:43
So if you have a pickleball court. 01:12:44
Is the zip code anything that would be a hard surface basketball OK? 01:12:48
Yes, yes, we do already have score court lighting in the code. 01:12:55
It's limited to an 18 foot light pole. 01:12:59
We're finding that might be a little too tall. 01:13:02
I like the 15 and I like to cut off at 10 too 'cause my neighbor's putting 1. 01:13:05
I don't really want to shooters. 01:13:10
Especially when, well, how many haven't you found that the real problem of all of these is that they always put their light? 01:13:14
So it's facing their neighbor and not them. OK if they put it on the inside of their fence facing their yard. 01:13:21
It would bring the height down, it would bring the you know, but all the nuisance ones are because. 01:13:30
They stick it up high and point it towards their name, put it on the House and it faces into the backyard and everybody else's 01:13:36
backyard, right and, and. 01:13:40
You know them. 01:13:44
And I I would love to have a. 01:13:46
A better way to define light trespass I realize. 01:13:48
Hard, that is, but. 01:13:52
When we deal with noise, we don't worry about wearing the property it comes from. 01:13:53
Or what's causing it. We focus on can you hear it? 01:13:59
Pass the proper a line. 01:14:03
Which simplifies enforcement considerably. And that and. 01:14:05
And I would like somewhere that has a one or two sentence definition of what is light trespass. 01:14:11
So that when neighbors are talking about, at least they are talking about the same thing. 01:14:18
I like that. I like that. Yeah, you've got to have that, that objective standard. 01:14:24
The problem with. 01:14:29
Any law needs to be. 01:14:31
Easily understood. It needs to have a clear purpose and it needs to be enforceable. 01:14:33
And if you can't meet those 3. 01:14:38
Probably shouldn't be regulated, right? Well, having been a coat person, I can tell you that if you take. 01:14:40
8 or 9 pages of this code. 01:14:47
And after 5 minutes discussion, explain to the person that in conclusion, the code officer thinks this violates the intent. 01:14:49
Of that, that is not going to speak soul blanning on and no judge is going. The judge won't understand it either. 01:14:57
I mean, he'll, he'll say, well, we're in here. What, what is the actual language that's being violated, not the the concept. 01:15:06
Or the language like. 01:15:13
Maintenance of a pleasant and soft ambiance. 01:15:16
I would love that when I'm doing traffic enforcement, you know, just like a safe and. 01:15:22
Not some noise you've driving, you know, and let me interpret that however I want as an officer and then? 01:15:28
I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest that that would come out. 01:15:36
I don't think that's. Yeah, that's just a purpose. Yeah, it's A and so let me have you like the. 01:15:38
Line 101. 01:15:44
We're talks about light triple. 01:15:46
And see if that's appropriate. 01:15:48
This is under the general standards for the entire ordinance. 01:15:55
You just say line 101101, so it'll be 1384040 B. 01:16:00
Onto or across any public or private street or Rd. 01:16:06
I mean, I have a security light that I put up a few years back. It's a motion light. It kicks on when someone comes up my 01:16:12
driveway. 01:16:16
Because I don't want my car getting broken into, right? 01:16:21
But that light makes it out to the sidewalk in the road when it kicks on. 01:16:25
So I would be out of compliance with that. And to be honest, I don't think any of my neighbors care if the street or sidewalk get 01:16:29
a little bit of light spilled onto them. 01:16:33
But if it was kicking on in the backyard and blaring into their window every time a cat walked through the backyard, I'm sure they 01:16:38
would be annoyed by that. 01:16:41
That excludes. 01:16:46
Private property. 01:16:48
It only talks about streets and roads. 01:16:50
So this this does not reach to. 01:16:53
The neighbors yard it only reaches, it only reaches to public and private streets and roads, but it does say within the property 01:16:59
boundaries. 01:17:04
But OK, but. 01:17:10
Designed to prevent glare onto or across any public or private St. It should be, shouldn't it be include or any private property? 01:17:12
I mean, that's, that's where the whole. 01:17:22
Nexus of this complaint is coming from is my private property, not the road, not the street. 01:17:24
Not your property, public property. 01:17:32
Yeah, I think it's kind of, I think it needs to be broader to include. 01:17:35
Anything other than their property. Their property. I like that. 01:17:40
Does Mill Creek City have an ordinance? 01:17:45
About lighting. 01:17:48
OK, because I've Cottonwood Heights, Murray, Mill Creek. 01:17:51
Sandy cause I've. 01:17:55
I on a committee first with the Skyline High School rebuild and we've had some issues with some neighbors to the north of the 01:17:58
school. 01:18:02
And in terms of light pollution from the tennis courts? 01:18:07
Into the neighbor's yard and people have been out there with light meters and Shields created and. 01:18:12
It's just been a. 01:18:18
So there's an ongoing issue and and I'm wondering. 01:18:20
What their language is, and I admit I have not looked it up, but. 01:18:25
Here's the problem with that situation. 01:18:30
The state code does not send any or does it require any? 01:18:32
Local compliance with municipal codes. 01:18:36
When a school district is involved. 01:18:39
Yeah, that sounds like this to schools. 01:18:43
Government property. 01:18:46
Churches. 01:18:48
OK, now. 01:18:49
A local church struggles outside this community. 01:18:52
With lighting problems everywhere. 01:18:55
OK. And without a doubt, that's the biggest issue comes up. 01:18:58
Height of the steeple and the lights, what time they go on and. 01:19:01
The fact that they light the building. 01:19:05
You know, and stuff like that. Oh yeah, there's no. 01:19:08
Yes. 01:19:12
Yeah, the school district is difficult. We had we ran into that problem with Olympus rebuild in their stadium lights. 01:19:15
You know, our council was very tactful in the way they approached the school district on making sure that those are. 01:19:23
Appropriately designed, but they didn't really get. 01:19:30
Yeah, Oh, I can appreciate the school district and the pain in the. 01:19:33
So do we want to? 01:19:40
Do we want to have staff come back to us then with update that doesn't involve the? 01:19:43
Kelvin Lightskill. 01:19:49
And focuses more on the housing of the light fixture itself and maybe clarify a little bit more around. 01:19:52
Neighboring properties versus street and sidewalk. 01:20:02
That I know what I'm hearing. 01:20:09
Is the ask from Planning Commission to staff? 01:20:11
So I'm not sure why we worry about the glare onto the street. 01:20:15
Can somebody explain to me why that's a big concern? 01:20:21
I think that's what we're that's at least that what I'm saying is that I don't think we are. 01:20:24
The private property boundaries and. 01:20:30
Like the concern is if it comes across the street into my property, right? Oh, so the street is like the street is the buffer. If 01:20:33
you hit the street, who cares? But if you hit my property now it's a problem. 01:20:38
It's their property. Understood. OK, thank you. Unless we're also worried about. 01:20:45
Traffic, I mean it's where hazardous for traffic. Are we going that far? Turn your lights off when you drive past my house. 01:20:49
To me it doesn't make. 01:21:03
Sorry, I'll stop trying. 01:21:07
Sorry, kind of just started the physical. 01:21:10
I'm not going to say what I'm about to say, so let me think first. 01:21:14
OK, OK. 01:21:18
State Member Tractor. 01:21:20
All right. Any other any other changes? 01:21:25
There's a numbering problem that needs fixing because we have. 01:21:31
840701080 twice I think. 01:21:35
Yeah. So if you start at line 273. 01:21:41
And 288 and then we replicate the numbering again. 01:21:46
At 3:23 and. 01:21:52
334. 01:21:54
Looks like I reordered yeah, and that gets picked up near the end. 01:21:57
And then I if we can discuss just for a minute down on. 01:22:03
3. 01:22:08
1. 01:22:11
Administration enforcement. 01:22:13
D&E. 01:22:16
Nothing in these regulations shall prevent filing an action for relief. 01:22:19
From light trespasser glare as a nuisance. 01:22:23
From other relief under other laws, I assume we're talking about civil. 01:22:27
That we're talking about. 01:22:32
Yeah, this is an appeal request. So once you have an enforcement action. 01:22:34
There's always an ability to appeal to a higher authority. 01:22:39
Enforcement. 01:22:43
Well. 01:22:44
I mean I may choose. 01:22:47
To simply file a civil nuisance against my neighbor. 01:22:48
And then as long as we. 01:22:54
You know this is about appeals. 01:22:57
I'm not. What is the intent of that language? Is that just to say? 01:22:59
You can just go straight, skip the city process and go straight to a civil nuisance, OK? 01:23:05
And if that's what we're saying, I don't think. 01:23:11
You know our long resident will know what you mean. I think that language on this say you you retain the right to take a civil 01:23:16
action. 01:23:21
And then? 01:23:26
The part that. 01:23:30
It will be most interesting where you get to suspend, revoke or require modification. 01:23:32
Of any lighting plan that is found and not being in compliance with this chapter. 01:23:38
Or that is causing nuisance conditions. 01:23:43
If you would want that responsibility, I, I. 01:23:48
Yeah, no one else is going to take it. Yeah, but no one else can take it. Maybe the council wants someone to have it other than 01:23:51
them. 01:23:54
They would just hear it on appeal. 01:23:57
That would be under my authority of my response. Yeah, OK. 01:24:00
You're a lucky man. 90% of what? Similar to your conditional use permit, you disapproved. If there's any violation of those 01:24:03
conditions, that's my. 01:24:07
OK. 01:24:12
All right. Anything else staff needs to take away from this so we can get to the minutes? 01:24:18
I just am not sure if we want to take. 01:24:24
The lighting temperature out because it makes such a difference about how the light feels. 01:24:28
You know, so how bright it is and where it falls. 01:24:33
But how bright it? 01:24:36
Feels about it appears is just so closely linked to the temperature of the light. 01:24:39
I don't know, I mean, I would appreciate it if Audi would quit putting, you know, whatever those xenon light bulbs in or whatever, 01:24:45
right. But like right, so I'm not I'm not fast to check that out because I think that. 01:24:51
They could for example switch the bulb and some of the problems would be solved without changing the shape of the light. You know 01:24:57
the effect on the neighbors. 01:25:01
Nuclear whatever where some problems would be have to be solved by changing the. 01:25:07
The white shape. 01:25:12
But if it's confined to their property. 01:25:14
The overall intent of this is in play. 01:25:17
I mean, if my neighbors want a pink backyard, like I'll be judgy, but you know, it's their backyard. As long as it's not making my 01:25:20
backyard. 01:25:24
So be it. Well, it's funny you brought that up. Has anybody driven by the assisted care center on? 01:25:28
Holiday Rd. just past 13th. 01:25:34
At night. 01:25:36
They have two or three light standards that are. 01:25:37
Purplish in color. 01:25:40
I don't understand. 01:25:42
Well, I've got a field trip, can I be a memory care? 01:25:44
Element. Just recall where you are. 01:25:47
But try by at night. 01:25:50
On the West End of the parking lot, all of the light poles are blue. 01:25:52
Blue lights. 01:25:56
You know, probably on sale. 01:25:58
OK, we can work on that. 01:26:06
All right. Thank you very much. Good discussion. 01:26:07
All right. And so that do I need to make any special motions to continue that public hearing read? 01:26:11
Yeah, just. 01:26:22
Might as well, OK. 01:26:23
So, umm, do we have to? We've got to vote on that too, right? 01:26:25
Yep. OK, so this is Chair Roach and I make a motion to continue the text amendment for the Outdoor Lighting Standards Item 3. 01:26:31
Until our next meeting so staff can work on the continued revisions. 01:26:41
And I get a second. 01:26:46
This is Commissioner Principal second that motion. 01:26:47
All right, we'll call for a vote, Commissioner Cunningham. 01:26:50
Hi, Mr. Gilchinski. Aye. 01:26:52
Prince, Hi Mr. Gong. Aye. Mr. Barron. Gerald Schills, Aye. 01:26:55
Moving on forward with it, great. 01:27:00
And then the last one is the approval of minutes from 2:18. We talked in our work meeting. Everyone who looked at it felt great 01:27:03
about it and had no revisions or adjustments. I read it and it felt like probably what happened, I don't know. 01:27:09
My memory is not as good as it once was. 01:27:15
And I was gone, so who knows? 01:27:18
All right, so those of us that were there feel good about it, all right? 01:27:21
So with that, I'll entertain any motions. 01:27:24
I make a motion to approve the minutes. 01:27:29
Thank you. 01:27:31
From February 18, 2025. That's thank you very much, Commissioner Hammond, Do we have a second? 01:27:34
Commissioner Barrett, thank you very much. We'll call for both. Mr. Cunningham? Aye. Mr. Wilczynski. 01:27:41
I wouldn't I? 01:27:47
OK, Commissioner Prince, Aye. Mr. Gone. Aye, Mr. Barron. Aye. Chair Rochelle. Aye. Done and done. 01:27:51
And with that, we are through the agenda. I will make a motion to adjourn. All in favor, aye, any opposed John and John, have a 01:27:57
great night. 01:28:01
And when is our next meeting? 01:28:06
It is the 50s. 01:28:08
Cool. 01:28:11
Just. 01:28:13
I know sun is still shining, let's go home. 01:28:15
I keep hoping that you know taxes this year I'm going to get a tariff rebate instead of having to file tax. 01:28:19
Somehow I think that's. 01:28:27
To analyze that. 01:28:30
I like the idea. 01:28:32